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Patrick › Comments
I dunno. Guy’s a million times more intelligent and successful then I’ll ever be. But I kind of hate how he’s seduced a generation of self-satisfied people with bachelor’s degrees into gorging on his horn-rimmed buffet of insouciantly bloggable cocktail party facts. - http://ayse.tumblr.com/post...
John (bird whisperer), vicster, Steven Perez and 3 other people liked this
I guessed who was meant before clicking through. =)
- Andrew C (✓)
Gladwell should be proud of such "brand recognition"! ;)
- Ayşe E.
Actually, does anyone else really fit that description?
- Andrew C (✓)
Why the MG hate? He seems okay... though yes, sometimes his writing does fit the description.
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
Glibness & oversimplification.
- Andrew C (✓)
I haven't read his books, but the description really fits the kind of people who go on about him.
- Patrick
Right, Patrick, I see it as more of a criticism of the pontificating class of Gladwell devotees, though it's pretty symbiotic wankery. I like Gladwell. I really enjoyed seeing him speak, and he's v. adept at finding the kernel of interest/truth in something that hasn't crystallized yet for many of us. But the oversimplification, as Andrew notes, undercuts otherwise really sharp observations. Merlin Mann's post, which I excerpted above, distills these conflicting impulses toward Gladwell's work v. well.
- Ayşe E.
I finally remembered who else fits that description: the Freakonomics guys.
- Andrew C (✓)
I haven't read his books, but pretty much any excerpt or article I've read by him fits that description. I think that "seducing the self-satisfied people" is pretty key to his success and influence.
- John (bird whisperer)
YouTube - Glenn Beck refuses to define "white culture" - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Nathaniel Thurston, Anna Haro, Joe The Sausage and 6 other people liked this
"During the interview, Couric posed a question from a Twitter user who wanted to know what Beck meant by “white culture” in his attack on Obama. Beck responded by stuttering: “Ummmmm, I don’t know.” He then suggested that he had already answered the criticism on his website, and therefore didn’t want to “make news” by responding to Couric."
- Steven Perez
from Bookmarklet
holy jabbering mad loony batman!
- Rasmus Lauridsen
An idiot? On MY news???
- Patrick
I love the look Couric gives him after he rambles incoherently. Several seconds of a great "what in the fuck are you on about" stare.
- Patrick
Patrick: I think Couric had plenty of practice with that face, given that she's also interviewed Sarah Palin.
- Steven Perez
Good point.
- Patrick
You can almost see the tiny overworked hamster in his brain straining to spin the wheels fast enough to come up with something.
- Andrew C (✓)
Oh thank goodness. I didn't even know WTF to think there. I almost thought I imagined it since Couric let it slide. (didn't want to rewind it because that would mean I'd have to listen to him again.) And I mean, if he was sane and informed he wouldn't mean Obama either since neither of Obama's grandmothers were African American.
- Andrew C (✓)
Our self declared genius trips over the simplest of questions, makes you wonder how much of a "genius" he is *grin*
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
He's a genius if I ever did see one. Sigh.
- Lis
Greg and Andrew, I think he was trying to flip the script on something POTUS Obama said: "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me.." the rest of that quote is, "...a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed...
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- Vox
I have a huge bathroom. - http://www.craigslist.org/about...
"My bathroom is large. You can easily put a twin air mattress in there. I only ask that when I need to use the bathroom, you or your air mattress are not in it. I do ask that when you are in the apartment, you confine yourself to the bathroom. I do not feel comfortable with a stranger walking around my living room. This might change as I get to know you better. I do ask that when you are in the apartment, you confine yourself to the bathroom. I do not feel comfortable with a stranger walking around my living room. This might change as I get to know you better. You may have guest over as long as they are cnfined to the bathroom as well. This might seem a bit odd but please remember the rent is $400 and the bathroom is large."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
Obama abandons missile defence shield in Europe |
World news |
guardian.co.uk - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world...
Prosey BUTTONS!, Lars Clausen, Jason Wehmhoener and 3 other people liked this
"Barack Obama has abandoned the controversial Pentagon plan to build a missile defence system in Europe that had long soured relations with Russia. In one of the sharpest breaks yet with the policies of the Bush administration, Obama said the new approach would offer "stronger, swifter and smarter" defence for the US and its allies. He said it would focus on the threat posed by Iran's short- and medium-range missiles, rather than its intercontinental nuclear capabilities. Obama announced the reversal officially at a news conference today. "This new approach will provide capabilities sooner, build on proven systems to offer greater defences to the threat of attack than the 2007 European missile defence programme," he said. He phoned the leaders of Poland and the Czech Republic last night to tell them he had dropped plans to site missile interceptors and a radar station in their respective countries. Russia had furiously opposed the project, claiming it targeted Moscow's nuclear...
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- Steven Perez
from Bookmarklet
Smart move by Obama in reversing a stupid policy that was promoted by neoconservatives. Now he needs to show the same good judgment and resolve in reevaluating his Afghanistan and Afpak policy.
- Sean McBride
About time.
- Patrick
My 30,000th Photograph on Flickr - http://thomashawk.com/2009...
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Shawn Leimbach, metalerik, Vimala Vita and 77 other people liked this
My 30,000th Photograph on Flickr The photo above represents my 30,000th photograph published to Flickr. It’s a milestone and part of my continuing goal to publish 1,000,000 photos to Flickr before I die. This photograph is from one of my favorite shoots. A shoot I did with my wife and children a ways back in this storm drain in Big Tujunga Canyon.
- Thomas Hawk
@thomasHawk didn't you say you wouldn't use flickr after they were gits once long ago?
- Prolific Programmer
from IM
Congratulations, Thomas! By the way, that shot would be perfect in my Vanishing Points group... I'll add an invite to it on Flickr.
- Kevin Trotman
Hasan, I did stop using Flickr for a while over some some censorship issues a while back. As you know I feel pretty strongly about censorship. I changed my mind though and couldn't really stay away.
- Thomas Hawk
"My 30,000th Photograph on Flickr" way to go @thomasHawk. I remember reading yr 10^6 & thinking thats ambitious. Now the Q. In the back of my mind I've been thinking about "how do you a) backup online against flickr takedowns? b) manage & curate the images as times goes on: cost, time etc?
- Peter Renshaw
Well mostly I back up my photos by using drobos as primary storage. I also keep another copy of my finished photos on hard drives off location. I upload pretty much the same photos to Flickr and Zooomr. So I've got two copies. Additionally, almost all of my flickr photos are fed into clustershot where they can be marketed for stock photography. I always upload original sized photographs...
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- Thomas Hawk
Veery nice one Thomas. Good job. :)
- BraGiu
Congratulations, Thomas! 970K to go!
- Alexander Arsky
Cool! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Congratulations, nice one!
- ilya
Congratulations. Doesn't seem like that long since 20000.
- James Myatt
Congrats Thomas!
- Simon Wicks
Great shot!!!
- Prakash
30,000, wow! Made me look. I'm only just past 20,000. Had no idea where I was. Need to pay attention to those landmarks. This is a wonderful shot, but then so many of yours are. You live to witness and share beauty.
- Patricia F. Anderson
Awesome!
- David Cook
from fftogo
Congratulations, and a beautiful picture. Thanks again for sharing
- Rob Kramer
That's a great photo, good work.
- Patrick
good stuff
- imran
500 a week! I feel slug-like. I'm so glad you do what you do with your talent at photography. Thank you for your inspiration and dedication to your craft, 4 children and spouse and a full time career aside. Very thought provoking and challenging. Congratulations on your milestone.
- Matt Penning
Congrats on reaching 30,000! Your artwork is always interesting.
- John (bird whisperer)
congrats Thomas! I always look at flickr each day to see what you have uploaded :)
- Heather
Congrats!!
- Arijit Das
Carter: Racism plays major role in opposition to Obama - CNN.com - http://www.cnn.com/2009...
Arijit Das, Lester Greenberg, M F and 48 other people liked this
"Former President Jimmy Carter said Tuesday that racial politics played a role in South Carolina Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst during President Obama's speech to Congress last week and in some of the opposition the president has faced since taking office."
- Atul Arora
from Bookmarklet
sadly, he tells it like it is.
- Tammy Cromer-Campbell
Sounds pretty convenient to me. Any time there's opposition, it's because a majority of people opposed must be racist, not because they have a difference of opinion.
- Garmon Estes
"Honest", funny.
- Carlos Ayala
Joe the Slander Wilson, Joe the Plumner. Who's the next Joe?
- Shane
It's one thing for someone like Sharpton to play the race card, but Carter is a fucking diplomat!
- dthree
What a stupid thing to say!
- Michael Kaiser
Right on, Garmon.
- Kurt Starnes
So typical of Carter. President Obama has some terrific ideas. He also has some that are just bad. I don't agree with a lot of what he has to say. Just because I don't agree with everything he says, does not make me a racist. I have nothing but respect for our President. That was true with the all of them. Even Carter. It's a job most of us are not cut out for and it's one that, no matter what you do, no one is going cut you any slack or give you a break. Former President Carter should know better.
- George Gray
My sentiments exactly, George.
- Kurt Starnes
@Joe - I hear you. I guess one would have to define "major role (of racism)" regarding the opposition.
- Kurt Starnes
Yea, like it was racial when you were in office only one term. All colors wanted you out!
- JimmyDee
This is called hey look at the racist over there so we can distract everyone from the fact that we are not moving our issues through like we want. Lets tell everyone it is because of racism not because of the actual issues.
- gfurry
/endorse George Gray's comment
- Mattb4rd
What an embarrassment Carter is.
- dpurrington
I'm confused. When Bush was president and the Libs were calling him a lier, and worse, and our brave soldiers murderers from the House and Senate floors, dissent was the "highest form of patriotism." Now, it seems dissent has become the highest form of racism. Which is it, Libs? Seems to me it's YOU who always play the race card when you start losing the argument. It's a mechanism to shut down debate. "You're a racist! Argument over!" Such a shame.
- Don Smith
@Don - show me the posters with Mr. Bush made up as Hitler, or a Monkey. The Liberals, as you stated, disagreed but did it in a respectful manner letting Mr. Bush state his side without interruption. The Conservative attitude seems to be I will yell as loud as I want to drown you out, as your point of view is "hogwash."
- Stephen Christian
@Stephen: http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty... It's not hard to find this sort of thing if you actually look for it. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Also see: http://semiskimmed.net/bushhit...
- Otto
Typical response. Play the race card whenever someone agrees with Obama.
- Spencer
@Otto - Thanks, you're right (Hitler comes up too often). As a non-American, looking at it from the outside your country has become VERY polarized and fightening to watch. It appears people don't respect other people's option any longer but go for the yelling over each other.
- Stephen Christian
@Stephen: Keep in mind that only those shouting the loudest get into the press. Especially outside the US; I've noticed that other countries media tends to be biased in this respect, only focusing on the extremists, and ignoring the rest. Those of us actually in the US find that sort of extremism amusing, at best. Also remember that most of those people doing the shouting are idiots, and often don't vote.
- Otto
A hit dog will holler, I guess. You guys act like Carter pointed a finger at you. Also, it's Obama's detractors playing the race card more than anyone else. None of you can deny that there are some who are racially motivated against Obama. It's obvious. How come any time anyone states this fact, you guys come running with your comments about the "race card"?
- Rah-PM 2012
@Rasheen The only people playing race is the Obama side. How come anytime someone disagrees with Obama they are labeled a "racist"? Seriously, it's getting pretty old and sad.
- Spencer
Well, look.. Carter has a point, and no doubt some of the opposition is obviously racist. However, at the same time, when somebody *says* that sort of thing, then it creates a grouping in the minds of his supporters. The notion becomes "disagreeing with Obama = racist" which is, of course, not true in the slightest. This is why Carter should choose his words more carefully. If you want...
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- Otto
@Otto: Well, yes the North American Press (which is a part of an enteratinment company) is all about ratings and therefore shocking to get people to not flip channels / buy our paper / visit our web page. So how is Mrs. Jane Average suppose to get the facts and information to make an informed choice? My memory maybe failing me but the right has always seemed to want to out yell the left and I wonder if you cannot get an information - just yell does anyone even listen any more?
- Stephen Christian
@Stephen: Yes, the press sucks. We are aware of this. But I wouldn't say that the right is more vocal. Whoever is not in charge is the most vocal. The left was just as extreme and vocal when Dubya was in office. It's unfair to paint this as one side being more extreme, because that's simply not true.
- Otto
Oh please. The only ones that keep bringing up race are those against him. I have seen no Obama supporters disregarding all rational discussion against him, using race. Look at how this thread developed as an example. Some agreed with the obvious fact of what Carter said while others randomly lashed out against his sentiment as if it's false.
- Rah-PM 2012
Someone disagrees with Obama, someone from their side comes out and labels them racist. That's coming from their side, not the people against Obama. Wilson called Obama a "liar", which is based more in truth than race. This started even before Obama was elected, and is just getting worse.
- Spencer
Are us folks who now question Carter racists via proxy?
- Kurt Starnes
The point is, just because some of his opponents are racist, does not mean all are, so threads like this just make no sense to me. You can't deny some of his opponents are racist. I think we can agree on that. No one is calling ALL of his opponents racist. That would be stupid. So I don't see why we keep having these fruitless discussions every time someone points out the race factor.
- Rah-PM 2012
Here's what Carter said: "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African-American," Carter told NBC News.
- Kurt Starnes
Rahsheen - no doubt "some" of Obama's opponents are racist.
- Kurt Starnes
"demonstrated animosity" does not mean those who just don't agree with him. It means those who are being blatantly disrespectful and perpetuating blatant lies about him. I'm not sure that covers anyone here.
- Rah-PM 2012
Heck, I had demonstrated animosity against Bush and Clinton (and I'm a white guy)! :->
- Kurt Starnes
@Otto: As I'm not in the U.S. - What was the Loud Left groups / people during the Bush era? I got the impression you're either support us or your a terrorist lover / american solder hater had pretty much killed the left outspoke groups / people.
- Stephen Christian
@Stephen: The problem with that view is that the right never explicitly stated anything along the lines of "us or them", sort of thing. Several off-the-cuff remarks by Bush were along those lines, and the left took it and ran with it to produce that sort of image. It wasn't true, because quite frankly the right was firmly in power at the time and had no need to make that sort of a fuss. All that impression you got came from the left, not the right.
- Otto
I love President Carter. Very smart! In fact Pres Carter did not name names. He just said that a lot the the criticism of President Obama looks like racism. He explained being an old man from the South he believes he's seen racism and reconizes it.
- MarK
Obviously, some of you never watch and read the "main stream" liberal media. The main topic has been that America is full of "racist" Obama haters ever since the TEA Parties and Town Hall Meetings. It's a lie, typically used by Liberals when they're losing the debate. Those of you who have your shorts in a knot about all the yelling, it's only because it seems to be the only way to get...
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- Don Smith
Bill Maher brought it up as well last night. Bill suggested that it's old southern racism bubbling up in subtle ways. No member of Congress would ever do that to a white president. Similar to why parents wouldn't want their kids listening to an Obama speech about something as simple as a message to stay in school; they're subconsciously afraid of a black man speaking to their kids (This is Bill's words, not mine).
- Fleagle
Oh please. Democrats boo'd Bush, did all kinds of things when he was speaking.
- Spencer
Maher should be reminded of the treatment Bush #2 received during a State of the Union address, IMO. Was it because he was white? 2¢ *Edit - Spencer beat me to it.
- Kurt Starnes
Oh please, Bill Maher? He's the biggest idiot on the planet for Pete's sake! Carter should just thank God for Obama. He finally has a chance not to be the worst President in history.
- Don Smith
+++++Rahsheen But I think you're talking into the wind. These people revel in their victimhood. It makes them feel special...or something.
- Anika
Don, pretty sure GW Bush has the worst president title locked up for the foreseeable future. A record of failure unblemished by success.
- The original Kevin
Anika, I think you're right. This is actually one of like 3 threads I've been involved with on the same general topic and the result is the same.
- Rah-PM 2012
From now on, anyone that disagrees with anything I say is hereby labeled a racist. I'm married to a Mexican-American, and it's a well known fact that racists don't like 'mixed race marriages,' and would do anything to discredit my assertions based on their dislike for me and who I'm married to. I don't care what the topic is, I can recognize racism when I see it. I dare you to disagree with anything I say from here on out now. :)
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Anika, Rasheen - I think some here are making a reasonable case that dissent against Obama is sometimes labelled as racist. Sure, some of it is racist, but not to the extreme that Carter professes. All IMHO, of course.
- Kurt Starnes
It seems he's talking about the overt and ridiculous protests against Obama featuring various racist caricatures and statements on their signs. Not people who just disagree with his policies or whatever. Someone correct me if he said different and I didn't catch it.
- Rah-PM 2012
If that's what he's saying, then I have no problem with his statements.
- Kurt Starnes
Wow. There's a banquet of stupid on this thread. How did I end up on Digg?
- Fleagle
If that's what he said, I'd be ok with it. He's not alone in saying what he's saying, and what he says characterizes all dissent as racially motivated.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
He is Rahsheen and it's clear that most people participating in this thread didn't bother to read beyond the headline. And then there's the fact that they love to play the victim.
- Anika
I read the article and don't consider myself a victim.
- Kurt Starnes
Who's playing the victim here? Carter and many democrats are calling people racists, a term that means by definition that they've been victims of racist acts.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Anika: I did read the article, and he makes it very clear: "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African-American," Carter told "NBC Nightly News." ---- I fail to see how you could read that in any other way than the most straightforward one. While he is talking about "demonstrators" there, those are not the only people opposed to some of Obama's plans.
- Otto
I also agree with this statement of Carter: "The president is not only the head of government, he is the head of state. And no matter who he is or how much we disagree with his policies, the president should be treated with respect." This applies to all Presidents, IMO.
- Kurt Starnes
Now I'm confused. His statement is not absolute. He's not calling ALL of Obama's opponents racist. I don't even think most of you are included. What's the problem here? I don't even think "overwhelming portion of intensely demonstrated animosity" applies to any of you.
- Rah-PM 2012
"intensely demonstrated animosity" can refer to the passionate response to what many people see as an erosion of core American values that the democrats are trying to legislate right now, and the president is championing right now. Because I do have a guttural reaction to much of that by definition makes me a target of his statement.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
It's a broad set of terms that he put out there, like many others, as a stake in the ground so as to say "be careful how passionately you disagree with the president, because you could get the scarlet letter "R" knitted to your shirt." That's trying to intimidate me from disagreeing with the president and his policies, and I resent that.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Honestly, it isn't much different from what the Republicans did during Iraq, saying "be careful how passionately you disagree with the policies of the president, or you'll be branded 'unpatriotic.'" Except being labeled by consensus as a racist carries much more weight with activists than being unpatriotic. Witness Imus, Loren Feldman, that guy who drew the cartoon about the monkey...
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- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
It *can* refer to a passionate response, but I think his statement is more clear by including "demonstrated." Just because you openly disagree doesn't mean you're carrying around signs with the president dressed as a witch doctor. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems clear to me who he is talking about. A lot of people on FF disagree with Obama, but I've never thought them racist for doing so. The people I see protesting on TV, however...well, that's a different story.
- Rah-PM 2012
I just don't like anybody's opinion being dismissed, and I absolutely hate when people classify other people into groups and then dismiss them as a class based on that. It's entirely too easy to label people into categories and then ignore what they say based on that category, and Carter is not helping by saying this sort of thing. Many of these "racists" as he's labeled them might have genuine and valid opinions that will not get heard. That's not the right way to run a democracy.
- Otto
Interesting, you're upset about people being grouped into a class and dismissed, what about a black class? What about the differentiators are race? Is that then fair?
- anna sauce
@anna: I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that black people's opinions don't count or something? Or what? I'm saying that labeling people is a bad thing, regardless of what the label is.
- Otto
Why is it that, despite recognizing that things like this are in fact racist, some people feel more solidarity with the guy holding up the sign of Obama dressed as a witch doctor than with people who think this is pretty disrespectful and not in anyway a rational argument? Because that's what it feels like when someone points out that things like this are racist, and someone else dismisses it as playing the race card, or accusing everyone who opposes Obama as being a racist.
- Victor Ganata
Kevin - I lived through the Carter years as a married man with three kids. Believe me, things were far, far worse during those four dark years than during Bush's eight years, and Carter didn't have to deal with the worst attack on American soil in history. Bush wasn't perfect, but no other president in history has been tested with such a tragedy so early in his term, and had to send our...
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- Don Smith
I remember reading an article a while back that said when it comes to dealing with issues in America, the majority of whites rarely see race as a factor whereas people of color almost always saw the implications of things being racial. I find that compelling. EDIT: And if that is indeed the case, how the hell are we ever going to deal with this huge chasm between people (throw class in there as well), if no one wants to drop the pretense and talk about this cultural plague?
- Derrick
@Victor: Not entirely sure what you mean by "solidarity" there, but you can agree with somebody's position without agreeing with, or even liking, their tactics.
- Otto
Otto, even if the position is "I hate Obama mostly because he's black?"
- Victor Ganata
@Victor: That's not a position, that's a reason for a position. A position must be on a subject that is in contention, like the health care plan. Somebody might hate the plan because they don't like blacks, I grant you. I don't like the plan because I think it's a bad plan.
- Otto
Sorry, I guess I elided too much there. The position I'm referring to is "I dislike Obama." There are lots of reasons to hold this position, many of which are quite rational. Is it right that people who have this position endorse other people who share the same position, even if they employ detestable and irrational tactics? Is pointing out that these specific tactics are detestable and irrational necessarily "playing the race card" or tarring everyone who opposes Obama with the same brush?
- Victor Ganata
Although I guess I can see the other side of the argument: it's possible to be racist AND still have rational arguments against Obama's policies. But it's really hard to separate that out. Especially when a lot of Obama's policies are continuations of Bush's policies, and these same people weren't very vocal last year.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor - good points. I also agree that many of Obama's policies are continuations of Bush's policies and wonder why there doesn't appear to more outrage from the left - extending warrantless wiretapping and bombings by drones which kill innocents are two such issues which come to mind. I think it's just simple cognitive dissonance on both sides - humans tend to overlook the...
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- Kurt Starnes
Kurt, I think there is a lot of disappointment on the left, but you don't hear about it for probably the same reasons: some people would rather defend the guy who is closer to their own beliefs, even if they find some of the things he does or allows are actually detestable and/or irrational. And it doesn't help that the mainstream media finds the incoherent shouting on the far right much more worthy of coverage than the grumblings of the left OR the intelligent discourse of the more moderate right.
- Victor Ganata
What a dumb shit..He needs to just stay out of the front of a camera.
- tony
Stay classy!
- Derrick
tony- nice way to add to the conversation.
- anna sauce
otto- way back you were saying that democracy supports racists as well as non-racists, and what I'm saying is that racism is undemocratic- it's saying that one kind of people's opinions are not worth merit.
- anna sauce
I am shocked, simply shocked, that someone would insinuate the presence of racism in the party that has opposed every advance of civil rights in recent history.
- Patrick
Racism and the suppression of civil rights goes hand in hand, and I can't see how the suppression of civil rights could possibly be democratic in any way.
- Victor Ganata
Patrick++
- Andrew C (✓)
Patrick, FWIW, before around 1960, the history of Democrats and race is not exceptionally favorable. Again, another case where neither Party has clean hands. *Edit - I just noted you said "recent history."
- Kurt Starnes
Oh for sure. I mean, they still let Byrd be a senator. That's crazy.
- Patrick
Name a few civil rights advances that the party has opposed in recent history Patrick. Please be specific.
- Mattb4rd
@Mattb4rd: Someone might need to define what a "civil right" is before anyone can answered? Maybe I think it should be a civil right to drink and drive.
- Stephen Christian
@Stephen Life, Liberty and the P U R S U I T of happiness.
- Mattb4rd
At least in California, the Republicans have spearheaded a lot of legislation that many racial and ethnic minorities have felt were specifically targeted against them: Proposition 187, 209, 227.
- Victor Ganata
The voters decided those issues, Victor.
- Mattb4rd
It doesn't change the fact that they've had deleterious effects on minorities.
- Victor Ganata
Wrong again Jimmy Carter!!
- Rod Cadenhead
Iraqi shoe thrower released; says he was tortured - Yahoo! News - http://news.yahoo.com/s...
Kol Tregaskes, Arijit Das, Johnice Reid and 3 other people liked this
"BAGHDAD – The Iraqi reporter who threw his shoes at former President George W. Bush in protest was freed from prison on Tuesday and, unrepentant, he harshly condemned the U.S. presence in his country and accused authorities of torturing him. Muntadhar al-Zeidi's stunning act of protest in December made him a hero for many in and outside Iraq. It struck a chord with millions in the Arab and Muslim worlds who have been captivated and angered by daily images of destruction and grieving since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. But nine months later, there was little public outpouring of support for him, a sign of how things have changed."
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
ALAH ALAH الحرية و أخيرا للمنتظر
- mustaphasma
Seems harsh to imprison him just for missing.
- Patrick
a man in demand
- imran
Patrick: *laugh*
- Andrew C (✓)
10 flagrant grammar mistakes that make you look stupid - ZDNet.co.uk - http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanag...
Kevin Sablan, Millard Baker, Johan Bakken and 29 other people liked this
I'm guilty of #4, but #7 is so pervasive that I believe it's the accepted norm now.
- Kevin Fox
from Bookmarklet
#1 is the one I find most common and most irritating.
- Mahendra (SkepticGeek)
In college, I had papers turned back because of the i.e./e.g. distinction, so it's ingrained. What about nauseous vs. nauseated? Or neglecting an 's' when forming the possessive of singular a noun that ends in 's'?
- Mark Trapp
affect/effect really bug me (when I read it). i.e., e.g. I'm totally guilty of that.
- anna sauce
i.e. / e.g. has never given me much trouble, i just remind myself of the latin and decide which phrase fits.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
... what's the Latin?
- anna sauce
Languages need to change all the time. Even Stephen Fry says it's not worth worrying about. Although I'm often found guilty of being pedantic, if he says it's fine to user "fewer" instead of "less" then it's fine by me.
- Tony Ruscoe
Anna: i.e. — id est, that is. e.g. — exempli gratiā, for example. The way I was taught to remember the difference is that i.e. could also stand for "in essence," which designates not an exemplar, but the essence of what it actually is.
- Mark Trapp
id est (that is) vs. exempli gratia (for example)
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Wow, not I feel ready for the National Grammar Rodeo in Canada
- RAPatton
Its funny because as a non native English speaker, I've never made those mistakes. I make tons of mistakes, but their are all different than those ones (i.e place of the words, which have a big affect on the fluidity of my sentences). If I were born American, then I would probably of forgotten those basic grammar rules just after school...
- Jérôme
#9 is problematic for programmers, always need a "then" statement.
- Victor Ryden 美久太阿
It's (<- see what I did there) a great list, but it does not tell people the reason why they are incorrect, or used incorrectly, and how to stop doing it.
- Tim Hoeck
LOL @ Jérôme. That was painful.
- Anika
Tim: the list is for "flagrant" mistakes, which presumes that the mistakes are commonly made due to lapse of judgement, not a lack of knowledge about their correct use.
- Mark Trapp
"loose" for "lose" annoys me like no other.
- Darren
Seeing #5 always makes me laugh.
- John (bird whisperer)
The sad thing about this list is that I see those mistakes so regularly at work, that I've had to learn to ignore them when I read e-mails or presentations. Because otherwise, I will stab my own face off with my letter opener. So much for being surrounded by educated professionals...
- Hookuh Tinypants
Loose for lose drives me right up the wall. So do all of the others.
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
Here are five or six more common errors, I recommend memorizing the list: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians...
- Patrick
#7 spawned one of the better professor vs. professor discussions I overheard in college; basically, one argued for the rule, the other argued that it was arbitrary, stupid and outdated. they were much more eloquent than I can reconstruct.
- Jennifer Dittrich
I'm glad I never did any of the mistakes. Except for #9. Years of programming in BASIC (or any variants of) have ingrained in me that "If" must be followed by "then" or I'll get an error message.
- Pandu ● IT Optimizer
from fftogo
I *am* a Grammar Nazi. Don't get me started on "apostrophes".
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
I'm not a grammar nazi, but I do judge people's intelligence by how they write... are those necessarily the same thing?
- anna sauce
I don't do these 10, but a [#11] often trips me up (but Word's grammar checker catches me) "that" versus "which" -> "which" should be used only when picking between two items, but a 40-yr-old habit has me writing "which" all the time when I shouldn't. [#12] that really sounds weird to me is improper use of "we"/"us"
- Mitchell Tsai
Real Electrons. In the Pipeline: - http://pipeline.corante.com/archive...
Andrew C (✓), caj needs a haircut, Mo Kargas and anna sauce liked this
"The researchers have improved the resolution and sensitivity, narrowing things down to single-atom tips. So instead of a tungsten surface, we have a single carbon atom at the end of a chain. And instead of the behavior of the electons in a bulk metal, we have the electron density around one nucleus. Behold the s and p orbitals."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
Lightroom 2 Technique: How I Organize My Catalog and Why (2009 Edition) — Eric Scouten: Blog - http://blog.ericscouten.com/2009...
Jérôme, davidjzhang, ChiliMac and 2 other people liked this
"In addition to my work as a developer on the Lightroom team, I take the opportunity to teach Lightroom in various workshop contexts whenever I can and I’ve been doing that for close to three years. One of the biggest challenges I see students face is how to establish good file management practices. In this article, I share my current practices here not because I want to preach that this is the One True Way to Organize Your Photos, but to provide a starting point for you in setting up your own Lightroom workflow. If this fits as a whole, great! If not, pick and choose what works for you and adapt the rest to meet your needs."
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
This is great. I've developed some similar bits in my workflow, particularly based on the need to have a small catalog on my laptop that I'm happy to show people, something I can show family and friends, and something big that lives on several external drives. I'd really like to see Lightroom add features to make this kind of process more streamlined.
- Patrick
@Thomas, thanks for reposting here.
- Eric Scouten
@Patrick: What kinds of features are you hoping to see?
- Eric Scouten
@Eric: The process of exporting and importing to move photos between catalogs is tedious. I haven't thought in depth about how to improve that, but here's a rough idea at least: What if you could set up sort of a meta-catalog that maintained some understanding of the relationship between multiple catalogs? For example automatically putting everything from my Big catalog that has five...
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- Patrick
Floating Utopias -- In These Times - http://www.inthesetimes.com/article...
Andrew C (✓) and anna sauce liked this
"Libertarianism is not a ruling-class theory. It may be indulged, certainly, for the useful ideas it can throw up, and its prophets have at times influenced dominant ideologies—witness the cack-handed depredations of the “Chicago Boys” in Chile after Allende’s bloody overthrow. But untempered by the realpolitik of Reaganism and Thatcherism, the anti-statism of “pure” libertarianism is worse than useless to the ruling class."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
"Libertarianism, by contrast, is a theory of those who find it hard to avoid their taxes, who are too small, incompetent or insufficiently connected to win Iraq-reconstruction contracts, or otherwise chow at the state trough. In its maundering about a mythical ideal-type capitalism, libertarianism betrays its fear of actually existing capitalism, at which it cannot quite succeed. It is a philosophy of capitalist inadequacy."
- Patrick
lol: "libertarianism betrays its fear of actually existing capitalism, at which it cannot quite succeed."
- anna sauce
Funny, b/c I think they think they are uber-capitalists
- anna sauce
agreed, anna.
- Joe The Sausage
Yeah, I'm not sure how much I agree with Mieville on that point, although I love the article. If libertarianism has a fear of capitalism, it's certainly not aware of it. It's true though that libertarians fetishize an ideal unobtainable capitalism.
- Patrick
They make the common mistake of conflating capitalism with free markets.
- Patrick
Going back and reading it again, I think he's right. Libertarianism does betray a fear of the existing economic system, but it hides this by arguing that it's not truly capitalism. Libertarians suppose that they would do better under a system of "true" capitalism. As Mieville says in the rest of the article though, capitalism has always been a joint project with the state. The "true" capitalism of libertarianism has never existed and never will.
- Patrick
Sociopathy on the Right: Ayn Rand and the Triumph of Conservative Cultism | Red Room - http://redroom.com/blog...
Anika, Andrew C (✓), Jennifer Dittrich and anna sauce liked this
"And so, interestingly, the right is increasingly cleaving to the words and philosophy of a woman who was not only, in all likelihood, mentally disturbed, but the functional equivalent of those who fell in love with say, Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, even after their crimes were exposed."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
this totally jives with my suspicion that Libertarians are selfish: "that a commitment to selfishness and a rejection of altruistic behavior were the height of morality"
- anna sauce
Whoa. I'd never heard of Hickman before nor (obviously) of Rand's insane defense of him.
- Andrew C (✓)
http://michaelprescott.net/hickman... - "At the time, she was planning a novel that was to be titled The Little Street, the projected hero of which was named Danny Renahan. According to Rand scholar Chris Matthew Sciabarra, she deliberately modeled Renahan - intended to be her first sketch of her ideal man - after this same William Edward Hickman. Renahan, she enthuses in another...
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- Andrew C (✓)
For that, anna, I am sharing [http://friendfeed.com/pbcar...] one of my favorite libertarianism-related articles.
- Patrick
Photographer Showcase – Edward Burtynsky | The Photo Argus | A Photographers Resource - http://www.thephotoargus.com/photogr...
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Anthony, Arijit Das, Dan owns Comicsforge.com and 3 other people liked this
"Burtynsky’s images are intriguing in many ways. He captures the price we pay for our industrialized planet and yet somehow makes it beautiful. That’s what I find so interesting about his work. To find and convey the beauty in a strip mined mountain or a pile of dismantled oil tankers is what really sets Edward Burtynsky among the elite of modern day photographers. “Burtynsky calls his images ‘a second look at the scale of what we call progress,’ and hopes that [they] acquaint viewers with the ramifications of our lifestyle.” -Washington Post"
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
There's some good stuff in here, including some amazing video from a chinese factory: http://www.ted.com/talks...
- Patrick
BBC NEWS | Africa | Hollywood to tackle Uganda rebels - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
Jenny Morman, Anna Haro, K.D. and 2 other people liked this
"The film is incredibly fictionalised in certain areas," Mr Raee told the BBC's Network Africa programme. "But we're basically telling the story of girls who were abducted and forced into slavery and forced into fighting a rebel war they didn't want to be a part of. "I want people to watch this and feel that they're watching a documentary in a sense, so we're really trying to keep this as authentic as possible," he said
- Lo the Baker
from Bookmarklet
"Earlier this week, a comic book about the LRA, featuring the WWII character Unknown Soldier, was launched by DC Comics." I'm... speechless. Since when does anyone care about Uganda besides weirdo hippies? (i.e. me, my dad, and one other guy) Way to go, DC.
- Lo the Baker
Let's hope they do it right, and not just make it about the nice nun. Here's the book btw: http://www.amazon.com/Girl-So...
- Eivind
Eivind, I am expecting a ridiculous hollywood fest. The point is this will change the answer to, has anyone even heard of this problem? I've learned to live with that.
- Lo the Baker
Dave, I have spent at least 50, more likely hundreds, of nights staring at the ceiling thinking about Uganda over the years... the only person on earth that I think I'd willfully murder is Joseph Kony... if I use neutral words to distance myself from the issue, it's only a self-protection mechanism not PC bullshit :)
- Lo the Baker
Oh! I tend to assume no one is reading :P
- Lo the Baker
yes.
- Joe The Sausage
How about the US gets hate when we get involved outside our borders? I was a lot more reluctant to do presentations after my college professors attacked me (not my work) during my senior thesis.
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
Yeah, like when a certain "civilized" country hosted a tennis open and booed an American player (cheering when she erred) and similar situations.
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
No help for Uganda 'cause an American tennis player was booed by the French (I assume)...
- Eivind
You asked a question, I tried to answer. Sorry for being so heartless. Obviously, if people see others get beat up on foreign policy when they had nothing to do with it, they shouldn't be shy about voicing their opinions!
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
And way to prove my point!
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
Dave, I shared your views about American hate, until the whole Kiva US loans thing. MiniMage is right, there is some ridiculous, completely unjustified US hate out there. Of course, this is not a unique problem that only the US has.
- Lo the Baker
And MiniMage, my question was not "why doesn't America intervene in Darfur?" it was "why doesn't anybody even pay attention to suffering in the world?" There is a distinction, but your thoughts are related and welcome. Frankly, I'm stunned that anything is happening on my feed, lol. What I really wondered is why people seem to feel a life of extreme superficiality is a good thing... but then, I think I figured it out - at least to my temporary satisfaction.
- Lo the Baker
In case you're wondering (Dave), what I determined is that people are (at least, in my experience which is limited geographically and somewhat culturally) raised to believe that these superficial delights are good and proper, but also more than superficial. Then they're conditioned by advertisers for many thousands of hours, without cease throughout their entire lives, to care about...
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- Lo the Baker
And for the record, that disgusts me on a deep level. I've met people who are essentially victims of mental slavery. It's appalling. I'm just torn now, better to help them or people who are subject to the various forms of physical slavery? I can't say which is worse.
- Lo the Baker
MiniMage, I was confusing this with another thread, my bad. I asked that question somewhere else. When developments recently unfolded in Darfur, I came to FF to see what people were saying about it, only to find that they were talking about themselves and the internet. It hurt at the time, a little.
- Lo the Baker
Dave said above, "I postulate that some relatively small but still substantial percentage of Americans are informed with an even larger percentage of Europeans, so my question is what causes us to be so arrogantly apathetic?" I was trying to guess as to why Americans weren't vocal on this thread.
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
I think part of the problem Americans have in paying attention to this is how horrible it is to think about. I fully admit most times I see the picture at the beginning of this thread I scroll so I wont see it. But Americans are taught "You have no power!" right along side "You can be President!" Think about how many people don't vote despite how easy it is, at the same time that the...
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- <3Heather<3
There you go, Heather, you're brainwashed into thinking that things cannot be solved and you're powerless. Very insightful. As for people who don't care, I absolutely do not buy that there is any human who is naturally indifferent to the suffering of another. If anyone is this way, they were forced into this view somewhere along the way, and I pity them. The only thing worse than the pain of compassion is the pain of having none.
- Lo the Baker
For how many decades have people been telling their children that "there are people starving in Africa" in an effort to get them to eat everything on their plate? I think little things like this sets up the mind from an early age to believe that people in Africa suffer and it's a part of what Africa is all about. Since they are introduced to this at such a young age, and usually in a...
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- April
Good point, April. For whatever reason I've been fascinated with Africa for many years, and while I was always convinced there were happy people even living in poverty, I did buy into the notion that Africa = poor suffering people that I must help. But thanks to the BBC, I can learn more about Africa and seriously - the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is than meets...
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- Lo the Baker
The media isn't explicitly censored, but they want to attract viewers and they don't accomplish that by telling us things that might make us unhappy. I think it's difficult for Europeans and Americans to dig into understanding Africa because we have to come to terms with our own complicity, either on the political level (for example the killing of Patrice Lumumba, or even going back to...
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- Patrick
Hi Patrick, good point! I think they do get viewers with misery, but more successfully with fear than guilt. If only people were captivated by being pleasantly engaged as opposed to terrified! You're right, Africa is soooo complicated. There's no denying the European/American influences that permanently altered Africa (right down to the Rwandan genocide, I was dismayed to discover). On...
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- Lo the Baker
I agree, it's an incredibly difficult subject. It's very hard to reconcile the need for action with a history of harmful and misguided intervention. If nothing else, a more widespread awareness of the complexity and difficulty would be a big improvement. Understanding the history humanizes the people affected by it, and demonstrates that Africa's problems are human problems, ones that...
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- Patrick
That said, education is an ongoing component that has to exist simultaneously with more direct action.
- Patrick
Patrick, your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :) If you ever find a way to increase understanding (with or without action!) you can rely on my assistance. That is, if you need a hippie with the composure of a crack-addled monkey to further your cause :) In seriousness, though, thank you for giving me a little faith in humanity when I needed it!
- Lo the Baker
I think audiences get in news-fatigue, like with Afghanistan, or with Rwanda. And I think the audience learns too, after famine in Ethiopia and Tiananman square. From a media producer's standpoint, they're going to lose ratings if the don't balance the good with the bad- folks just don't want negativity impacting their workday commute. That's why I like reading local news from around...
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- anna sauce
Anna, perhaps the reason people get "fatigued" by hearing bad news is that they have been gradually conditioned to believe there is nothing they can do about it? That is, in my limited experience, how news is almost universally presented. It's a dirty lie, and I'm disgusted by it when I'm not being sucked into it. As for the local thing, I don't believe I ever said that local concerns were unimportant. Though I really can't think of anything that compares to poor Uganda.
- Lo the Baker
For those keeping track, I beat Louis in Scrabble.
edythe, Michelle M, Louis Gray and 2 other people liked this
He tells me it was a slaughter. No mercy.
- anna sauce
nice!
- .LAG liked that
HMMM
- Patrick
OK so Patrick is beating me in Scrabble too. What comes around...
- anna sauce
Mike Enzi, Gang Of Six Republican, Admits He's Simply Blocking Health Care Reform - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009...
Derrick, Patrick, John (bird whisperer) and 2 other people liked this
"Mike Enzi, one of three Republicans ostensibly negotiating health care reform as part of the Senate's "Gang of Six," told a Wyoming town hall crowd that he had no plans to compromise with Democrats and was merely trying to extract concessions. "It's not where I get them to compromise, it's what I get them to leave out," Enzi said Monday, according to the Billings Gazette. Enzi found himself under attack at the town hall simply for sitting in the same room as the three Finance Committee Democrats. Republicans in the crowd called for him to exit the talks. He assured conservatives that his presence was delaying health care reform. "If I hadn't been involved in this process as long as I have and to the depth as I have, you would already have national health care," he said. "Someone has to be at the table asking questions," Enzi said. "If you're not at the table, you're on the menu." Enzi was also hit from the other side, as constituents criticized him for taking significant campaign...
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- Neal "thePuck" Jansons
from Bookmarklet
Area bear admits he enjoys the occasional shit in the woods
- Patrick
""If I hadn't been involved in this process as long as I have and to the depth as I have, you would already have national health care," he said. " WOW.
- Andrew C (✓)
Stay classy, Mike.
- Derrick
Yeah, that is just all kinds of wrong ...
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
...our government at work, or, rather, not at work. something about: "checks and balances"....
- .LAG liked that
My god, the Enzi quotes are so ridiculous they're like something from the Onion or GYWO, but they're real: http://www.billingsgazette.com/news...
- Andrew C (✓)
It's a hell of a quote, though. That's one that's gonna bite him in the ass.
- Neal "thePuck" Jansons
from IM
I'd like to think this will help us stop giving these people the benefit of the doubt, assuming centrist compromisers are well-intentioned, but honestly anyone who still thought that at this point is probably beyond hope.
- Patrick
+++Patrick. I keep asking my Dem. representatives. "Why water down a bill for people who won't vote on it anyway?"
- Anika
The Washington Monthly [on passing bills via reconciliation and the bullshit claim that using that method now would be a terrible precedent] - http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive...
Anika and Prosey BUTTONS! liked this
"Update: Last night, McCain was on Fox News and said use of reconciliation would set a "terrible precedent" that would "blow up" the Senate. He added, "I think it would fundamentally change the way the institution functions." Funny, McCain didn't feel that way at all in March -- or when he was in the majority."
- Andrew C (✓)
from Bookmarklet
The legislative process and how our government works: just another thing that it's okay to lie to ones constituents about.
- Patrick
Al Jazeera English - Focus - Guantanamo's 'more evil twin'? - http://english.aljazeera.net/focus...
anna sauce liked this
"It is a US-run prison built from scratch on an US military base to hold "enemy combatants" captured in the so-called "war on terror". Those imprisoned there have never been charged with a crime, nor do they have any meaningful way of challenging their detention. The inmates allege abuse at the hands of their captors, ranging from sleep deprivation to brutal beatings. And no, it is not Guantanamo Bay. The Bagram Theatre Internment Facility lies on a sprawling US military complex, 40km northeast of the Afghan capital Kabul. It holds almost three times as many prisoners as Guantanamo and, as its better-known Cuban counterpart prepares to close, the Bagram prison is about to double in size."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
Closing Guantanamo is purely a PR move.
- Patrick
I live in a country with socialized health care... anyone wanna ask me a question about it?
Yvette Ferry, Penguin, Nick Humphries and 59 other people liked this
Not really :D How do you feel about socialized shaving? ;)
- Tony C (Unrated)
from fftogo
It takes at least 2 blades for me to shave normally...
- Johnny
The reason I ask is because it seems to be demonized so heavily and I don't hear a lot of stories FROM countries that have it.
- Johnny
Johnny, thanks for offering to answer questions. There's so much mis- and disinformation in the American press that we can't gain any clarity on the actual issues at hand. *grumble*
- Ayşe E.
Major surgery like cancer removal etc.... Straight away. My mothers best friend found a lump on her breast and it was removed within 3 days. Elective surgery or those non critical usually go on a prioritized list.
- Johnny
Also, another thing to note... When Georgia was born, cost me $0
- Johnny
We also have a pretty strong Private health care sector here too. The government gives you a 30% rebate on your premium back off your tax return. We have it and that ensures a private hospital with own room and choice of doctor but about 80% of our medial stuff like doctors appointments are through the public system The doctors Bulk Bill. That is they bill the government for the...
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- Johnny
I've always thought of things like health care, waste removal and utilities to be natural monopolies thanks to the amount of infrastructure required to pull it all off and the pervasive need of societies for it all to just work without questions. Funny that upon visiting Australia I find that most if not all of the above were run by either local, state or federal government entities.
- matthew john ernisse
Funny you should say that Matthew, some of the biggest problems we have is when those types of utilities were privatized.
- Johnny
privatization is a huge push here in the states and honestly I believe it has brought more waste, less innovation and lower-quality of service into almost every sector... (disclaimer: I work for a telco)
- matthew john ernisse
Without getting to deep into the politics (just wanted to answer the questions etcs) but it is a lot easier to ring up your local member and yell at them for the bins not being collected than sitting on hold for 3 hours with the corporation :P
- Johnny
The current battle in the USA over healthcare is being waged by special interest groups whose only concern is protecting thier bottom line. Its really pretty pitiful to watch some of the older folks raise hell about government health care then get a dazed look when you ask them who runs Medicare.
- Tony C (Unrated)
from fftogo
Why haven't you died yet? Have you come to the US for truly great health care? Do you really have kids just so they can wait for you in line?
- Todd Hoff
Todd :P... 1) Cause I don't think twice about seeking medical assistance if there is an issue 2) No, I'm coming to meet all the FriendFeeders 3) We have kids because we love them and can look after them. The cost of squeezing them out is not a limiting factor
- Johnny
this may seem silly to some, but it is a real question on my part: how well are the doctors compensated? how does the government decide what a doctor is worth?
- Marco
Marco: Let's just say the doctors here still have flash cars and fancy houses. The government determines a set amount. That amount will be payed for by the government. The doctor then has the right to charge over that and they receive the 'gap'. Since all the doctors work from the same level, competition comes into it :) Also, some private health insurance companies cover any gap in there plans.
- Johnny
And some doctors will "bulk bill" (becoming rarer, a lot will now only do it for conession groups i.e low income earners and pensioners) whereby they accept the government's payment as full payment for their services i.e the net cost to the client is $0 (sorry for jumping in Johhny)
- Bryce Roney
how often do you have to appear before your country's Murder Board so that they can decide how much longer they will allow you to live? (in case anyone thinks its a serious questions - it is not)
- Marco(aureliusmaximus)
Also, all kids under 18 (maybe 16?) are bulk Billed I believe
- Johnny
Marco, depends on how many kangaroos they have to clear of the roads on the day... more than 200 and we call it off :P
- Johnny
Lies all lies Johnny :-)
- Todd Hoff
Did you watch the movie Sicko? Was social medicine accurately portrayed? When you get Strep Throat do you have to wait for a diagnosis (and treatment) or do they test in 15 minutes and give you a shot before you leave?
- Trish Haley
from iPhone
Never having strep throat myself I'm not sure but I would say you get the test and you're out the door. Quite often, the shot or medication is subsidized so our medicine costs considerably lower. Sicko was pretty accurate. The UK is slightly different from us but essentially socialized health care forms the base and the private sector value-adds on top of that.
- Johnny
Ooh, thanks for reminding me, I got Sicko out to watch, have to take it out of my bag
- Bryce Roney
I should also say, for disclosure, that I am in one of the top tax brackets so I pay quite a bit in taxes to Medicare. I have never had a problem with it because I have always been in the mindset that I pay for it out of my wages so I don't have to pay for it on the day.
- Johnny
The Medicare Levy is currently at 1.5% and an additional 1% for those who earn >$75000. The surcharge level was introduced at a lower level (~$40000 if I recall) under Howard to pressure people into getting private cover - and the Lifetime Healthcare Loading (basically if you join private cover after age 30 you have to pay additional insurance levies). I know my parents only signed up for private health not to pay the extra tax
- Bryce Roney
I also live in a country with socialized medicine, Denmark. Having come from the US, the difference is shocking, and I have no idea why people argue so hard for the system of reform they're trying to push through now, since it doesn't appear to look too much like anything here, or in Australia. Here, in spite of having a pre-existing condition, I still get the care I need, and meds for...
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- Bette Cooper
*cheers for Bette's rant*
- Ayşe E.
Sorry about that, the DH told me I should have left the tirade out, since Johnny was just being kind enough to answer questions. Feel free to delete if you like, Johnny, or I can. My bad.
- Bette Cooper
Bette... I don't delete :)
- Johnny
Matthew... Who is better to pay for the bio-genetic robot reanimation than a overlord government?
- Johnny
Very soon thereafter? are we talking some kind of time travel here? :-P
- Rasmus Lauridsen
best FF thread I've seen in a looooong time.
- Que Sarah Sarah
I applaud those people who are trying to have an intelligent discussion about something that has become so ludicrous in the media. Death panels? Socialism? "Discussion" of health care reform is becoming inane - no wonder people outside of the country are saying "WTF"! It's annoying to continue to hear the "oh I have a friend that lived in [Canada/France/UK/insert 36 other country names...
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- Allan Besselink
Well, here in Scotland. Our healthcare is fine. I pay my National Insurance which is my pension later in life and for the NHS too. Like one of the first comments. If they find a lump, its cut out immediately. Didnt cost a thing. Even the Ambulance journey is free. My younger cousin who has downs and ceberal palsy, the healthcare he receives is second to none and its all free. The UK...
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- Alan (Giraffes)
"The UK looks after itself". I wonder how many people in the US really believe (in their gut) that they really want to have health care available to all, and truly believe in the benefits for the group as a whole? I think that is one primary element that sets the US apart from all of the other countries discussed here. In Canada, I grew up thinking that that was just the way it was...
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- Allan Besselink
Wait -- the Medicare levy is 1.5% (2.5% for those who make over $75k)? In the US, every employee has a mandatory 7.65% withholding for Social Security (6.4%) and Medicare (1.45%), which is *doubled* by a matching contribution by the employer. So we are already paying 1.45% for health care coverage we don't even get to receive until we're retired, with 2.90% of our salary being paid in total for this. But no, the US system isn't broken at ALL.
- Ladyepiphanybug
[And yes, that means that if you're self-employed or work on a contract basis, you're responsible for the entire 15.30% contribution.]
- Ladyepiphanybug
I would like to add that my friend is waiting at the hospital right now to get a kidney transplant, on Medicaid, at no cost to him, in the US.
- Robert Hafer
from iPhone
I say 'no cost to him' because no health care anywhere is free.
- Robert Hafer
from iPhone
Johnny, what would you change about the system if you could?
- The original Kevin
There's a really humorous (though not intentionally so) email going around. It describes a so-called experiment in "socialism" by a "college professor" who makes the following deal with his class: he will give everyone in class the exact same grade, no matter how much they contribute (or not) to the class projects and activities. Also, the email continues, this professor has never given...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
By the way, I'm not advocating socialism as the form of government we should have in the U.S., but I would request that those who are so vocal about it at least find out what it is before they speak. (I realize that is A LOT to ask in this day and age, no matter what the issue or topic. And yet, perhaps one day I will be pleasantly surprised.
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
Just also another thing to consider, those who advocate that the medical system should be user pays etc, that also goes up, not just down. The tax dollars we pay here in Australia, and I suspect in America, go towards government funded medical research and large tax relief for medical insurers. If one was to state 'Why is money taken out of my pay check to pay for other people's...
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- Johnny
As far as Social Security in the U.S., detractors ought to bear in mind that the system would be in far better shape were it not for the fact that, for 30 years or so, billions upon billions in the S.S. Trust were diverted to the General Fund so as to offset budget deficits. That's a given, but what many S.S. detractors want us to forget is that those S.S. Trust Fund revenues were...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
I am lucky that I pay zero for health care in the US. I selfishly want my helath care not to get screwed over and at the same time see it get better for those not as lucky as I.
- Jeff (Team マクダジ )
from iPhone
Every dollar of every health care procedure is paid by someone, in every country. For every person that spends $1000 more in care than they paid in (taxes, fees, co-pays, etc), someone else must use $1000 less then they paid in. Which group do you expect to be in? This year? 5 years from now? Every dollar must be accounted for. There is no magical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. How much do you trust bureaucrats to balance the "pot" every year?
- Robert Kenney
That assumes the $1000 I pay in taxes buys $1000 worth of care. The $1000 I pay in taxes gets pooled with every other person's $1000 which allows for bulk purchasing and infrastructure. Just say a hospital costs $1000. That hospital may be able to service 10,000. Now if only 1000 of you pay your $1000, it costs you $1. If 10,000 people pay, it costs you $0.10
- Johnny
from IM
So far. most of Johnny's answers apply to the Canadian System as well. For a medical doctor, I have personally never had to pay at the office and be reimbursed - things like massage therapists and chiropractors would be covered under personal plans (ie. the one I get through work)
- Nathalie
That's true Johnny. I wouldn't want to have to think about "omg! can I afford this?!" if I had a situation that really did require attention.
- Nathalie
Johnny, forcing millions into paying into the pool will not change the equation. A $5000 hospital bill still costs $5000. The overall population will still need as many people paying more then they use in care to cover those who use more than they pay. The size of the pool does not effect that equation.
- Robert Kenney
My son is 24 years old, and a full time college student, He also works full-time and pays for his employer provided health insurance. He was injured a few months ago, requiring a visit to an emergency room (think Cook County Hospital in Chicago, only the Minneapolis version (HCMC.) His upper front teeth have now been replaced, his upper jaw bone structure has been reconstructed, and he...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
Johnny, if you pay $1000 how do you figure that you're only paying $1.00?
- pitlord
Your math doesn't work. If 1000 people pay $1000 then you have a total of $1,000,000 and the hospital has been paid to service 1000 people. That means it cost those 1000 people $1000 each, not $1.00
- pitlord
Mark: aside from missed wages, were all costs taken care of?
- Nathalie
Sorry Nathalie, my comment posted before I was finished. (Yes, it's a long one!) I edited the existing post, so hopefully it makes more sense. To answer your question, they've still only paid a couple hundred dollars. We'll probably have to enlist the help of a lawyer to get the insurance to cover what is clearly in the policy. That's the name of the game these days!
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
The challenge the US faces is our diverse population as compared to most of the countries with socialized types of medicine. Our large urban areas with low-income populations, our rural areas with difficult to support medical facilities, our various social-economic strata among different ethnic groups that effects education, life-expectancy, preventive care, and taxable incomes....
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- Robert Kenney
Work it out again... I pay $1000 in medical taxes. The hospital costs $1,000. Then in my pool of 1 the hospital costs me $1000. If 1000 people pay into the pool, the pool then has $1,000,000 but the hospital only still costs $1,000, meaning my share is only $1. The other $999 can be spent elsewhere
- Johnny
from IM
There really should be no debate about national healthcare in the US as our Constitution does not provide a mechanism for the federal government an entry to the issue. What is being bandied about is most certainly unconstitutional.
- Robert Owens
Jonny, the $999 gets spent to cover the other 999 people for $1000 each you don't get a rebate. There is no magic way to make a $1000 hospital bill cost $1.00.
- pitlord
Robert Kenney what you described is also Canada (and Australia. and I'm sure every larger developed country)
- Nathalie
Johnny, are your elected officials covered by the same health care or do they get better coverage?
- pitlord
Why don't you all pay for the poor to have the same level of care as everyone else?
- pitlord
Private cover also covers elective surgery. You can have elective surgery done here in the public system, but you're going to wait a fair while (usually), generally private cover will mean elective is done faster. Also private cover covers dental, which Medicare doesn't (yet)
- Glenn Slaven
It's a pretty good system IMHO
- Glenn Slaven
Why should you get private coverage? Doesn't everyone deserve the same level of care?
- pitlord
Robert Kenney: If you're right, then Medicare (from FDR's New Deal) and Medicaid (from LBJ's Fair Deal) are both unconstitutional and should be struck down by the Supreme Court or otherwise repealed. The proposed national health care reform is simply a further extension of this.
- Dennis Jernberg
I didn't raise the constitutional issue. But as matter of point, FDR stacked the bench to avoid that sticky issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Robert Kenney
Johnny, look up the definition of red-herring. What you're saying is that your health care is no better than ours but your taxes are a lot higher. Gee where do I sign up for that? -_-
- pitlord
Define 'level of care'? Everyone here gets free healthcare if they want to. If they can afford to pay, they can speed things up a bit & get some optional extras (private room, etc). What are you going to do, make private care illegal? Why would you do that? The private patients are paying to be seen in a private hospital which reduces load on the public system. If they are willing to pay extra for that, why not?
- Glenn Slaven
@pitlord What happens for you if you *need* surgery & don't have insurance? 'cause here I can go to the hospital & have it done for free with a doctors referral (which I can get for free with Bulk Bulling)
- Glenn Slaven
Yes, FDR stacked the bench . . . he actually wanted to expand SCOTUS to 15. Anyhow, Medicare and Medicaid have been found to be a bastardization of the Commerce Clause. SCOTUS has restricted that in more recent times. I suspect it would quite a lawsuit if healthcare were challenged. Clearly according to the Tenth Amendment, the founding fathers had no expectation the federal government would manipulate the Constitution to take over industries.
- Robert Owens
Or I could just go straight to the emergency dept of the hospital & get admitted there (I'd probably have to wait there a fair while, but I'd get seen, all for free)
- Glenn Slaven
It cost us $15 per child. In our plan we had to pay the co-pay on the initial doctor's visit.
- Robert Owens
In all of those examples, how much did it cost your fellow citizens?
- Robert Kenney
pitlord, most countries with a developed health care system have settled on a balanced solution which is means essential health care is covered equally for all and coverage beyond that is supplied by individuals or employers or a combination. You are free to support an extreme position on either side of that though.
- Micah
Are you kidding, in the U.S. you don't even have to be a citizen to get free healthcare. Illegal immigrants can walk into any hospital in America and it's illegal to deny them medical care.
- pitlord
@pitlord So why do HMOs exist then?
- Glenn Slaven
And to say your health care doesn't cost "you" anything is false. If you didn't pay for it with your taxes then you pay for it by living in poverty.
- pitlord
Of course it costs, like all taxes it's a distributed cost, like the upkeep of roads & the like
- Glenn Slaven
pitlord - my understanding is it is illegal to non provide emergency care.
- Micah
HMO's are part of the reason costs are so high, we should go back to the system that allowed us to become the scientific envy of the world before Nixon signed the bill that allowed for HMOs.
- pitlord
Putting the word "distributed" in front of it doesn't make it magically cheaper.
- pitlord
Dining room table is dining. ><
- pitlord
No 'Economies of scale' makes it cheaper
- Glenn Slaven
In the US, many citizens pay no taxes, so the burden will fall on a smaller group than the population as a whole. In '06 43M citizens paid no taxes. http://www.taxfoundation.org/news... Will the poorer have to contribute to the health care "pool" equally with the tax-paying citizens? No. We know this. So it is a welfare program paid by a smaller segment of the population....
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- Robert Kenney
Same as every other tax in the country, the poor don't pay as much to keeps the roads intact, but they still use them the same, what's the difference?
- Glenn Slaven
I guess even the Canadian press thinks their health care is falling apart even if the AP won't report it. http://newsbusters.org/blogs...
- pitlord
Having health insurance is not a right to be protected by the federal government.
- Robert Owens
The thing that makes me laugh about this debate is that people pay money HMO but the value they pay doesn't always equal the amount you take. Robert's argument works for private HMOs the same for the public system. Why should I have to pay mone to a corporation that will just give it to someone who gets sick. How much is my $20,000 operation costing the 'fund' when I have only paid in a total of $3,000 into the fund over the life of your plan.
- Johnny
from IM
Because healthy and sick use the roads equally.
- Robert Kenney
Toll-free roads don't "cost" at time of usage. Of course money was invested and that money comes from the population. It's in that sense that "it didn't cost me anything" is being used. I don't think anyone here is confused by this point at all.
- Micah
Nobody is supporting HMOs we just don't want our government to have control of our health care. We don't want an Orwellian society.
- pitlord
So if not HMOs what?
- Glenn Slaven
A fully privatised system? What happens to people who can't afford healthcare, they get to die?
- Glenn Slaven
We all get to die
- Robert Owens
The "imploding" quote is from the head of an advocacy group. Advocacy groups have a special interest and craft their communications accordingly.
- Micah
Har har, "they get to die prematurely" then
- Glenn Slaven
What's premature?
- Robert Owens
Dieing is a constitutional right.
- Robert Kenney
People who can't afford it already get Medicaid. Speaking of Medicare and Medicaid, why don't we fix those, along with Social Security before we start giving the feds even MORE power?
- pitlord
Let me understand you please, you're saying you believe that people who can't afford essential health care should be left to die? Leave aside elective surgery here, I'm talking about life-saving operations/medication?
- Glenn Slaven
Are the US Feds suggesting banning private health care?
- Glenn Slaven
The question is: Is it fair to force your neighbors to pay for your operation?
- Robert Kenney
Glenn, yes. Barack Obama supports a single payer system run by him.
- pitlord
I am saying that I don't know what dying prematurely is, unless we are discussing the Lockerbie (sp?), Scotland victims.
- Robert Owens
Yeah.. when are we going to get it? During our extended sailing trip (http://ff.im/4gfo2) we only had catastrophic protection and it was still over $7K a year for two. Our first doctors visit in the states for a pre-natal exam $1800.. including $1100 in blood tests for things we didn't ask for (like STD tests). Before we left my wife was a surrogate for her sister's twins, the hospital bill was over $25,000.. negotiated down to under $5000 by the insurance company. SOMETHING has to change!!
- Chris Myles
"It's not constitutional!" all too often gets thrown around like "Well *I* heard Dad say you can't do that!"
- Micah
@pitlord Have you got a link for that, I hadn't heard that
- Glenn Slaven
@Micah read the Tenth Amendment. It clearly says those rights not specifically delegated to the feds are reserved to the states and the people. Show me where healthcare is specifically delegated.
- Robert Owens
Glenn, here ya go. http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- pitlord
Robert, is it fair for one neighbour to pay for the fire department to come put out the fire of the other neighbour?
- Micah
Sorry youtube is blocked, I'll have to watch that later, haven't got a text link have you?
- Glenn Slaven
When it's abused, cities are now charging the homeowner.
- Robert Owens
thank Robert
- Glenn Slaven
Yes, it is fair. We all want a fire department.
- Robert Kenney
"We all want a fire department." because it's a public health concern.
- Micah
It's a property thing. Your house catches on fire, my property is at risk.
- Robert Owens
Any system can be abused. And it should be dealt with in each one.
- Micah
You get a hernia, I am not at risk.
- Robert Kenney
Your communicable decease is my risk too (does FriendFeed pass germs, hmm? ;)
- Micah
No Felica Day tells us, in cyberspace there's no disease :)
- Glenn Slaven
Spam is an infection.
- Micah
@Micah I agree; all the more reason to minimize the number of systems the federal government runs.
- Robert Owens
A federal gov't is not a bogeyman. It's not my friend either. I like to have a respectful, negotiated relationship, that's all.
- Micah
If you're saying that it's unfair to have to spread the costs of one individual's medical care to a larger group, aren't you stating that private health insurance is also unfair? Particularly since in the good ol' US of A they take a higher cut to provide their service than any (oh my God!) socialized healthcare system? So much for the efficiency of the "free market" (as that has existed in U.S. healthcare for decades anyway.)
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
The federal government was designed to be limited. Exploiting the Commerce Clause is not limited. Frankly, doing so means there is no limit to the government.
- Robert Owens
The socialized healthcare argument is founded on emotion. The motivation is "fairness" and "compassion". Like so many social policies today, it is necessary to appeal to those touchpoints to make the case for it. These motivations run contrary to the founding of our country. Personal responsibility, individual liberty, freedom, and self-determination.
- Robert Kenney
Yes, the private insurance industry is unfair to those that do not have it.
- Robert Kenney
The private insurance industry is often unfair to those who *do* have it...edit: health insurance industry
- Bren
There are several companies that offer it. Be a good customer and change companies.
- Robert Kenney
@Robert isn't it usually picked by your employer?
- Glenn Slaven
Unfortunate for us , our state governments regulate and limit the options customers have for private insurance.
- Robert Kenney
We are all free to purchase anywhere. Complain to your employer or change jobs.
- Robert Kenney
@Johnny Ha! *pictures Trump talking to PM 'Your Fired!'"*
- Glenn Slaven
Personal responsibility is a fine thing, as is individual liberty and responsibility. Those concepts break down rapidly when you're child is lying on the side of a road after being struck by a car, and doesn't have proof on insurance on his physical person. It also breaks down when your private insurance decides that it's financially preferable to defer your coverage until you line up...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
I have many options of health plans through my employer. I can opt out as well, as my wife does with her employer.
- Robert Owens
ER's will treat anyone.
- Robert Kenney
@Robert, but won't they then bill you?
- Glenn Slaven
Yes, pay the bill. Or don't, like many chose to.
- Robert Kenney
@Robert I imagine that that debt would be interest bearing if you can't pay it straight away?
- Glenn Slaven
Yes, it is still America.
- Robert Kenney
Robert, I don't see emotion spewed in this thread, though I see it across the internet, tv and other media plenty on all sides of the debate, and I do see reasoned arguments. So "The socialized healthcare argument is founded on emotion" seems a weak argument among all those present here.
- Micah
Which would cripple most non-high income earning people, where as my annual Medicare tax is income based, and so everyone can afford it. That is what I see as the difference
- Glenn Slaven
My unemployed friend was hit by a car on his bicycle by an uninsured motorist. He was in a coma for weeks and the first 10 minutes (the life-flight) cost $85k. His total emergency bill was over a million!! Do you pay or go bankrupt?
- Chris Myles
I'm not referring emotional posts, but emotional motivations.
- Robert Kenney
Robert K - Freedom to choose is not a choice when the only options mean spending 30 to 50 percent of your income on healthcare coverage that may or may not pay off when you're most in need. You speak as someone who has never yet been tested by the realities of our healthcare system. If that is so, you're more fortunate than most, but don't presume that it will last. The trends of the...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
Aren't most motivations even below emotional, and are actually instinctual. But that applies across the board.
- Micah
@Mark Why does the solution have to be the federal government?
- Robert Owens
Robert, what is your solution then?
- Glenn Slaven
I agree Mark, the trends do not look promising. But my concern is that the 80%-90% will look to the 10% to pay for it. My concern is that the Government has zero track record running any service that interacts with the public on a daily basis. My concern is that we end up with a Russian style system, that spreads the misery equally.
- Robert Kenney
Predictable misery is better than unpredictable misery - the later is what you have when strictly for profit insurer X wiggles out giving you back the value you put in with your premiums.
- Micah
Insurance should be for catastrophic care. Your stubbed toe is not a reason to go to the doctor. Once you do, the doctor is required by malpractice concerns to run lots of tests, and see you 3 more times over the next month. If you only pay $10 for that, then you will naturally have no concern about the costs. MSA's, tort reforms, competition, personal responsibility to keeps costs down.
- Robert Kenney
Hands off. I am thoroughly convinced the medical industry is on a path of self destruction. The more costly it becomes, the more doctors who will opt out of it. I can easily imagine a new wave of doctors who work for cash. Even if you don't like that, looking to the feds as salvation when it is prohibited by the Constitution is not the answer. Apply pressure on your state government to make changes.
- Robert Owens
Health insurance is one of the most regulated industries we have. Open it up to competition. Let them compete for customers, deliver great customer service, provide value for your premiums, and lose you as a customer if they screw you over. This is a capitalistic country and plenty of companies would love to compete for our health premiums. We should be able to buy from anyone we want, at the best prices.
- Robert Kenney
Robert, we have that here. The only difference is it works ontop of the social system. Everyone is assured the same level of basic care and then people are free to 'upgrade' to the high packages (of which I have done). No one is saying HMO should go, just change their business model
- Johnny
from IM
"love to compete for health premiums" hmm. It's working that way now, and there are tons of uninsured that go to the ER, costing tons of money. Also, they unsinsure you when you start to age.
- anna sauce
We have a social system for the poor and they do have coverage already, called Medicaid. I and all of us pay into it every month. I will never collect on it, at least with your system you can collect on what you pay.
- Robert Kenney
We have plenty of healthcare systems currently in place. Medicaid, SCHIP, CHIP Dental, and lots of others. All with large bureaucracies, overhead, ongoing fraud, and inefficiencies. Is this the model we are going to be forced to sign up for?
- Robert Kenney
Medicaid and Medicare, as currently implemented, are sick jokes. my parents, both degreed former professionals, are past retirement, without insurance and rely on this system which is severely broken. we need a new system.
- Joe The Sausage
Robert: where is the evidence that anyone is going to be 'forced' to sign up for anything?
- Bren
Page 16 of the House Bill. This had been discussed all over the web. Google it.
- Robert Kenney
I'd much prefer a system where I get to keep all of the money I earn and I also get to negotiate directly with my dealers and service providers for my care allowing me to keep any money I save in my own pocket.
- pitlord
Johnny: An ideal system could work. Yours is well done for reasons that would not work as well in the US. Social, etc.
- Robert Kenney
Why Robert? What do you think is so different between Australia & US that it couldn't work here?
- anna sauce
I'm curious, Robert. Have you read pg 16 of the bill? I just did and it doesn't "outlaw" private health insurance that I can see.
- Bren
@anna The US is not designed to be a socialized anything state. The federal government is supposed to be limited. That is why socialized healthcare will not work well here.
- Robert Owens
Australia is a country that has a high level of education, a socially healthy lifestyle, stable incomes, non-diverse ethnic backgrounds (lifestyle and genetic health issues), low crime levels, lower incarceration rates, etc.
- Robert Kenney
Again ER tables are free in the US.
- Robert Kenney
free for whom, Robert? everything costs somebody.
- Bren
For the user. The cost is borne by the rest of us, everyone gets treated in an ER.
- Robert Kenney
Personal responsibility starts.
- Robert Kenney
ER tables are free in the US? Since when? Only if you agree to forfeit any hope of ever getting a loan, or renting an apartment or owning a home. With the increasing reliance on FICO scores in employment and housing screening, that argument is specious. Are you advocating that people not pay their ER bills?
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
The person who hit you can be held responsible.
- Robert Kenney
You're such a communist, Johnny.
- Zackatoustra
What you're really saying is: accept that you will no longer have any standing in our society, and we will provide your medical care at exorbitant rates, which we will then pay and despise you for having to do so.
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
What ever happened to family resources, your friends, and your church stepping up in an emergency? That's what used to occur when tragedy struck someone. Now it's expecting the federal government to serve that role.
- Robert Owens
Or in the case of a hit and run? It's just not as simple as it seems.
- Bren
@Mark If you don't pay your mortgage, your credit is ruined too. Sometimes folks are stricken with a rawer deal than others.
- Robert Owens
The point you miss is that most people don't want to rely on such a system. They want to pay their fair share. Not some jacked up rate that some comptroller has shifted to the ER because it's a captive market.
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
If I may, Mark : Why would you have to loose your standards, just because the community would help people who can't afford any kind of standards, healtcare-wise?
- Zackatoustra
In your scenario, the other person has no insurance or money, then you will be responsible for yourself. In the states we have Uninsured Motorist coverage available as part of our auto coverage, to pay if the other person cannot.
- Robert Kenney
Zack, my response about "standing in our society" was directed at Robert K's comment. I'm not averse to providing care to those who can't pay. What I am saying is, why do we insist on a system that forces more and more people to become destitute in order to access health care?
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
I now live in Australia, where the healthcare is semi-socialized, coming from Canada, where it's MORE socialized, I have to say I prefer Canada.
- Will Higgins™
I understand your point Mark, it would be better to offer catastrophic coverage for the uninsured. But remember the poor have Medicaid that we all pay into.
- Robert Kenney
The same reason that people would become destitute if they insisted on purchasing Rolls Royces and cavier daily. If you want to purchase something that is costly, you have to find a way to fund the transaction. Just like the car and the food, health insurance is a commodity to be purchased, not a right to be bestowed.
- Robert Owens
It's not only poor people who are uninsured.
- Bren
If you are not poor, but are still uninsured, then why should your neighbors buy you insurance?
- Robert Kenney
nobody is advocating that, any universal healthcare system would have this hypothetical nonpoor person pay
- Patrick
Johnny, sorry, was talking to Bren.
- Robert Kenney
If they hit you, should they not be responsible for their actions?
- Robert Kenney
Again, Robert, the poor do, but a vast percentage of people in the U.S. don't meet (nor do they wish to meet) the income requirement for that coverage. You're logic seems to suggest that they must then become poor to become eligible. My point is, isn't there a better way? Can't we find a solution that allows productive people--who want to do the right thing--to access health care without forfeiting their economic viability (and the ability to provide for themselves and their families?)
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
It comes down to this: the whole purpose of insurance is to spread risk around so that no one person shoulders too much of the risk burden. The larger the pool of insureds, the smaller the risk for each individual insured. The largest possible pool would be everyone. In which case each of us would have the smallest possible risk. Each of us would also pay into that system (just like with any insurance) to cover the costs of those who need to access that insurance.
- Bren
@Bren Then pressure state governments to open up their restrictions to allow its citizens to purchase policies from out of state.
- Robert Owens
Mark. If you are productive, then should you not use that productivity to provide for you and your family?
- Robert Kenney
If the government offered a public insurance option that worked in the same way that private insurance does, but without the profit motive that has seen private insurance company profits increase 1000% in the last 6 years while the number of uninsured Americans has risen by nearly 50%, I don't see why that would be such an issue.
- Bren
@Bren Except the little piece of paper called the Constitution doesn't provide for that to happen. You can't just disregard the Constitution because it's inconvenient.
- Robert Owens
Bren: The problem is that many will not pay into it, only a smaller percentage will pay for everyone. And taking all of the profits from insurance companies will only pay for several days of operating costs for this system.
- Robert Kenney
Thanks for creating this thread Johnny, nice civil discussion.
- Robert Kenney
"health insurance is a commodity to be purchased, not a right to be bestowed." or do you mean health care, not insurance? Insurance is a commodity? That's what got us into the mortgage crisis, lol. I think commoditizing health care may be at issue, but more important to me is the motive of a corporation that needs, or requires a profit, based on providing care to sick people. Those are...
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- anna sauce
@anna Are you willing to bank an insurance program out of your own pocket without hope of profit? Profits are not evil, it is what makes our country work.
- Robert Owens
Why would I need to back an insurance program?
- anna sauce
bank, not back. My apologies.
- Robert Owens
Actually, I think the preamble actually provides for this: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, *promote the general Welfare*, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
- Bren
Robert K. - Of course! So let's make that a feasible prospect! If health insurance isn't affordable, yet you have an income above poverty level, you will more than likely pay several times more for the same services at an E.R. than someone who can access affordable, preventative care. The irony with healthcare is that deferring costs typically increases costs, and yet that is exactly...
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- Mark J Colonel Colonic
@Bren Promote the general welfare is not to pay for the general welfare.
- Robert Owens
so you say, Robert.
- Bren
@Bren, actually so says the Constitution. It's a wonderful read, isn't it?
- Robert Owens
Why would the hospitals/doctors/etc. industry necessarily have to be on the traded market? If it's not for profit, for example, the profits are only to maintain the system not to benefit from it. And there are some fields in this world where you are not striving for profit, you are working for other reasons, like, to help people.
- anna sauce
I was just reading it, looking for that part :)
- Bren
as I read it, Section 8 says the following: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"
- Bren
"provide for the general welfare"
- Bren
It just keeps popping up, doesn't it?
- Bren
You mean like keeping the citizens alive?
- Johnny
and common defence could be construed to mean against bacteria and viruses
- Patrick
Something like that, Johnny.
- Bren
@anna Except for those who are in the medical and insurance fields have determined there is money to be made. It may go against your desires, but they are the ones exposing their capital and they are fixated on profits.
- Robert Owens
*hands Bren an extra vodka, fluffy hat and a mustache* :P
- Johnny
And for the record, I don't think profits are evil. I love our capitalist democracy and I hope it thrives and makes many rags-to-riches stories for many Americans. I think there are a lot of other industries that work great in that field. Technology, for one. But basic health care has a sadly inescapable fact: we will all get old and die. Care will be needed. The current system...
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- anna sauce
And looking at the limits on Congress, (section 9) I don't see anything that prohibits the formation of a national health system.
- Bren
So where does the Constitution prohibit the formation of such a system?
- Bren
@Bren No, it doesn't. Get to the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Perhaps the Federalist Papers would help to explain the motivation of the Constitution. It replaced the Articles of Confederation, which were inadequate since the feds had no power. The COnstitution permited the feds to defend the country, mint money, and make decisions about interstate commerce. It is that last issue that FDR...
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- Robert Owens
What's wrong with running things at the state level, but providing strong guidance, support, communication, and cost control at the national level?
- Gus
I am actually okay with growing old and dying.
- Robert Owens
This is an awesome discussion! Thanks to everyone who has participated with such a reasoned voice. I'm tired and need to get to bed. I will check back tomorrow to see what I missed. (P.S. Why can't our "Town Hall Meetings" go like this?)
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
Gus: That's how we roll in Oz... Not perfect system but it's ok
- Johnny
Robert O. I'm doing that as wee speak! (Just had to get one last comment in.)
- Mark J Colonel Colonic
Robert you haven't addressed my response to the profit comment.
- anna sauce
Robert: I see what you are saying, and can see why you would read it that way, but I still think the power to provide for the general welfare is specifically granted to the United States by Article I Section 8, so the 9th and 10th amendments really are not applicable.
- Bren
Can we just control costs through taxes on corporations that make a profit from health care and use that to pay for the national agency which provides support to the states?
- Gus
So, here is what I have gathered from the thread: Socialized health care isn't evil and for that matter, neither is the user pays system. The issue of healthcare reform is sooooooo complex, both in terms of systemic reform in the health system and government incompetence, that sometimes it gets to the point of blaming political leanings of each plan then tackling the issues that need to be solved first...
- Johnny
@Bren The Constitution isn't written that way ("anything that prohibits the formation of a national health system"). It is written as the federal government can do this and this and this. If we didn't say the federal government could do it, it can't. Those issues are left to the states and the people. Think education. San Anotnion v. Rodriguez rules that education is not a fundamental...
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- Robert Owens
But Robert, I've already shown you where the Constitution says the US *can* do this one.
- Bren
The interstate highway system is a form of national socialism, isn't it?
- Gus
It didn't say it could . . . it said to "promote" the general welfare, not "provide"
- Robert Owens
@Gus Yes, it is. And it is used to thump states to comply with the federal government. You'll either go along with this or we'll hold up your highway money.
- Robert Owens
Article I, Section 8 says "provide for the general welfare"
- Bren
I have it up in another tab right now. I'm pretty sure I'm not misreading it.
- Bren
We'd better plow up the interstate system or we're violating the Constitution.
- Gus
Wow, Robert just took away education too, lol. Johnny- I completely agree that partisan politics is playing a huge part in why the US is having such an agonizingly long journey to something the rest of the world has figured out. A basic national health care system is a good idea.
- anna sauce
GO here and click on welfare for a definition http://www.usconstitution.net/const...
- Robert Owens
Hm. no thanks.
- anna sauce
1. *health*, happiness or well-being? that one? that's the site I am reading.
- Bren
You actually just made my point for me, thanks!
- Bren
The good thing about each state creating their own system is we can see which one works best. Maybe the states that do the best can get more highway funds or something...
- Gus
There is no limit if you accept that broad definiition. But you're misrteading Article !, section 8. The enumerated powers is the list.
- Robert Owens
I like your ideas, Gus. More important, they're constructive ideas with the common welfare in mind. More and more of these debates I feel like everyone is fearing for themsleves. It's this pervasive selfishness.
- anna sauce
I'm misreading? I don't think so. edit: like I said, I can see how you are reading it, Robert. I just don't agree with your interpretation. As I read it, the Constitution specifically says that the Congress can levy taxes to pay to provide for the health of the citizenry.
- Bren
I too have enjoyed this discussion, but it is late/early and I need to turn in. Thank you everyone. Have a sound slumber or a happy day, depending on your time.
- Robert Owens
Johnny, what do you pay for, say, new glasses?
- anna sauce
Good night, Robert. Oh, and one last thing: I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. :)
- Bren
I found this thread to be enlightening, actually. Thanks for starting it.
- Gus
Anna. The eye exam is free. There are government issued glasses but they aren't nice (EDIT:Stylish) so most people pay for a good set. Most health insurance plans (like mine) pay for a large part of them.
- Johnny
I think I paid $200 for an eye exam the other day. How much do you pay for contacts?
- anna sauce
Depends on your health plan. Not to sure about government issued contacts as they are more likely to make you go with the glasses.
- Johnny
@anna One last thing b4 I turn in. Doing away with education only applies to the federal level. Education is a state right. Education would be in better shape, imo, if the feds stayed clear. Finally, just so you know, I am a veteran public school teacher. G'night.
- Robert Owens
Nobody "likes" taxes. But you know what? I don't mind paying the Medicare levy. We have private health insurance and only use Medicare for occasional doctors visits. We likely pay more out than we use. But I am more than happy to do that if it means that somebody who can't afford private insurance can still get the care they need.
- Mellyboo {$5.50 Hugs}
Johnny: what was the vodka and fluffy hat about?
- Bren
Joke about joining us communists over here :P
- Johnny
heh! I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I suppose! I've got love for my Socialist brethren. :)
- Bren
About 2/3 of the way through the comments and I've gotten so sick of "it's not in the Constitution" I could punch someone in the face. Constitution? does it mention Federal punishment for interstate crime? No, but you can't flee NY for NC! Is the FDA in the Constitution? What right does the government have to regulate food safety! That's just ludicrous! Anyhow, thanks for doing this Johnny, I think I had semi-legit questions but I've forgotten them.
- <3Heather<3
Heather: that's what you'll get from the strict constructionist crowd "it's not in the Constitution." Apparently, you get that from them even when it *is* in the Constitution.
- Bren
Bren - so true.
- Andrew C (✓)
Wow... forget the States, the next place we're moving is Australia. Johnny, can you please have all the big hairy spiders and poisonous snakes please sent away beforehand... spiders scare me almost as much as the idea of having to live in the States with no healthcare. :D
- Bette Cooper
Bette. try NZ, same benefits, better scenery with none of the stuff that will Kill Ya!!
- Chris Myles
No giant hairy spiders that snatch up babies? *whew*
- Bette Cooper
Spiders don't snatch babies in Australia, dingoes do.
- Mellyboo {$5.50 Hugs}
Those 8 legged dingoes are scary looking though ;)
- Tony C (Unrated)
8-legged dingoes? umm... yeah. We won't be going there, if anything other than spiders has 8 legs... not happening, wouldn't be prudent...
- Bette Cooper
Its all cool Bette, they take forever to tie their shoes before they can chase you ;)
- Tony C (Unrated)
hahahahaha... I feel so much better now! :D
- Bette Cooper
People having different values won't ever ever agree on the question : Equity or Equality?..
- Zackatoustra
out of curiosity Johnny: are any dental needs covered over there?
- Nathalie
1. Johnny, what is the wait time for MRI, do all hospitals have CAT/MRI or do you need to get on a wait list? 2. How many hospitals cover a city area of 100,000 thousand people? 3. Do you have ER abuse for colds/splinters? 4. What is the wait time for a new joint replacement? No trolling but I do work in the US system.
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
jlt-Janet - as American Medicare pays for the majority of hip replacements in the US, surely any superiority of hip replacement in the US should be credited to single-payer systems?
- Andrew C (✓)
jlt-Janet - I live in a city with a population of just over 100,000. We have one public hospital and two private hospitals. Many people from smaller outlying towns use our hospitals too. We do have some ER abuse, but Medicare means most people can go to see a GP for little or no cost. People who do present at the ER for non-urgent conditions are often told to go and see their GP the next day.
- Mellyboo {$5.50 Hugs}
Andrew, I am not questioning payment I am questioning the wait time for surgery.
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
jlt-Janet - I have no idea where to get the figures from with regards to wait times. It would differ from State to State and city to city. Personally, I have private health insurance, which means I could have my surgery in the hospital of my choice with the doctor of my choice, most likely within a couple of days.
- Mellyboo {$5.50 Hugs}
@Melismatic, what is the malpractice claim rate in your country? My little world of imaging we find redundant testing for fear of malpractice suits. The redunant testing increases costs to the patient/ins/medicare/medicaid.
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
What country are you in Johnny? I apologize I'm late to this conversation. Your Mom got faster service than I. Kaiser took a month schedule the removal of my Kidney. It was containing a 4cm cancrous tumor. I would have preferred it have been removed a little quicker.
- Dario Gomez
jlt-Janet - I have no idea about the malpractice rate. It's not something I hear a lot about in the media though.
- Mellyboo {$5.50 Hugs}
My personal feelings on US going socialized medicine...malpractice suits must be curtailed. Most days the commercials here are from law firms seeking people diagnosed with something or took some medication and the law firm is filing a class aciton suit. Lawyers make too much money at the expense of the harmed people.
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
How Does the Quality of U.S. Health Care Compare Internationally? - RWJF - http://www.rwjf.org/quality...
"An analysis from the Urban Institute looks at the evidence on how quality of care in the United States compares to that in other countries and provides implications for health reform. Authors Elizabeth Docteur and Robert Berenson find that international studies of health care quality do not in and of themselves provide a definitive answer to this question. What they do show is that the evidence for American superiority in quality of care (or lack thereof) is a mixed bag, with the nation doing relatively well in some areas—such as cancer care—and less well in others—such as mortality from treatable and preventable conditions."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
Flickr Shuts Down Forum Discussion On Obama-Joker Image - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
Jeff P. Henderson, Nispell, Scoble, Alex Scoble and 11 other people liked this
"Oh, this just gets better and better. Or perhaps sadder and sadder. In a post earlier this morning we discussed Flickr’s questionable decision to remove a photoshopped image of President Obama that makes him look like the Heath Ledger (Joker) character from The Dark Knight. In that post we quoted Flickr’s director of community Heather Champ who said “We very much value freedom of speech and creativity” in an explanation about why the image was removed from Flickr. We called B.S. Now Flickr has shut off further comments on that forum post, which was most definitely not headed in a pro-Flickr direction. In his message shutting off the discussion, Zack Sheppard reiterates how important political discussion is to Flickr: Political discussions and expression are definitely allowed here on Flickr. We don’t want to squelch political discussion, but if something is in violation of the Community Guidelines or copyright law and it’s reported, it will be taken down whether it’s a kitten, a...
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- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
Deleting photos is bad enough, but shutting down a *conversation* is outright censorship.
- TranceMist
you can check "virtuality check" from francois fortier. and see what's going on http://books.google.com.tr/books...
- takmaz
The policy of removing something upon receipt of a notice is a really scary trend. There needs to be a higher standard of proof for infringement complaints.
- Patrick
I keep reading the horror stories of censorship and account deletions at flickr. It definitely makes me concerned for the 33,000 photos in my stream, not that I have copyrighted material in it.
- Robert Owens
Why the health care debate is so important regardless of one's view of the "public option" - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com - http://www.salon.com/opinion...
anna sauce liked this
"The Obama White House isn't sitting impotently by while Democratic Senators shove a bad bill down its throat. This is the bill because this is the bill which Democratic leaders are happy to have. It's the bill they believe in. As important, by giving the insurance and pharmaceutical industries most everything they want, it ensures that the GOP doesn't become the repository for the largesse of those industries (and, converesly, that the Democratic Party retains that status)."
- Patrick
from Bookmarklet
Can't get enough of Rohm quotes... "Sources at the meeting tell me that Emanuel really teed off on the Dem-versus-Dem attacks, calling them "f–king stupid.""
- anna sauce
also like, on why the Democrats aren't *that* dumb: "Why would the GOP want to help Obama achieve one of his most important and politically profitable goals? "
- anna sauce
Why do you drink coffee?
K.D., Eric Berlin, chaz2b and 12 other people liked this
Is it for the caffeine kick? Or to drink something warm to get you started each morning? Because you're addicted and can't do without? Or just because you like the taste of it?
- Brome
It smells good. I don't always drink it in the morning. Sometimes for an afternoon pick-me-up.
- MicahBear78
It's full of flavour without being particularly sweet (served black of course) and enjoying the perfect cup of it is an epic journey :D
- Micah
The Micahs have ruled. Case closed. j/k :D More comments: proceed below.
- Micah
Mostly to quiet the voices in my head.
- Morgan
I asked the question because I don't drink coffee (mainly because I don't like the taste) but noticed that some people have to drink their daily or bi-daily cup to be fully operational, especially in the morning. The stimulating properties of coffee have always seemd quasi-magical to me.
- Brome
I don't. I don't like the taste either, Brome, but I'm fond of tea.
- Derrick
I like the taste (when had with sweetener and half/half). I love the smell and taste of it. Not addicted, though (thank god).
- Spidra Webster
Why, do you have some? Is it good? Can I have it now? I don't have a caffeine problem. Just a little taste....cm'on man. Don't hold out on me!
- Chris Greene
caffeine kick, drink it iced to get started in the morning, addicted, and love the smell and taste.
- metalerik
Cold coffee in the morning? Wow, Metalerik, that's hardcore! :)
- Brome
Derrick, so am I. I can't get enough tea.
- Brome
Love the smell and taste.
- Anne Bouey
The smell, the taste, the ritual, the warmth, and the caffeine. Love it all.
- Jen (SquirrelGirl)
from iPhone
I was originally thinking of sitting this one out, but then decided to pop in and make a comment on behalf of all of us who don't drink coffee.
- Miss Elle
Miss Elle, on behalf of all of us who don't drink coffee: thank you.:)
- Brome
Me I'm a ch'ti (from the north of France), Thus, I should be a coffee addict, like about all my family and drink coffee sur coffee, but I don't, althought I like It sometime, For breakfast I drink Ricoré (yes and I assume it) with milk and a lot of sugar. My preferred coffee is the "café glacé" : café+sucre+crême fraiche-->au frigo-->miam ! :-)
- lotre demedeu
Every single reason you listed in the first comment is true for me.
- Patrick
I like the taste, and it's something warm to drink in the morning/whenever I feel like it. Yes, I have it with milk and sugar, if it's available.
- Tyson Key
I don't, nasty stuff. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Because it tastes good with Sunday brunch...Brunch is the only time I drink the stuff.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
Love the taste; the caffeine itself doesn't actually have that much effect on me except in ridiculous quantities. (I often have a cup of coffee right before betime)
- Tristan Seligmann
Brome, sent you a cheers this morning before I had my first sip of icy cold coffee. Yum!!!
- metalerik
For both the taste and the buzz.
- Brett Kelly
Buzz, taste and I'm totally addicted.
- Christian (Simply X)
I'm a Caffeine junky
- BEX
Because I love it. The taste, the smell, the warm yumminess. I grew up around coffee so a day without it doesn't feel right.
- FFing Enigma
To persist in the world.
- Mike Bracco
I don't
- RAPatton
I like the taste, cream and sugar plus I need the Caffeine.
- Kim Landwehr
cant stop since collage, :o
- chaz2b
All of the above, and because it is The Lifeforce without which we can't exist
- Eric Berlin
Eric: +1 for mentioning the Lifeforce! So when you feel 'a disturbance in the force, is that from someone taking the last cup of coffee? Or is it the coffee kicking in, resulting in strange gurgling from your tummy, which means you have 90 seconds to find a toilet?
- Morgan
Don't, tea is better.
- The Amber
to stay awake!
- imath
iced coffee on FF again: http://friendfeed.com/messel... :D
- metalerik
How The Average U.S. Consumer Spends Their Paycheck [pic] - http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the...
Kostas Panagiotopoulos, Harold, Rob Michael (Atmos Trio) and 8 other people liked this
this doesn't seem terribly accurate.
- Joe The Sausage
I spend tons of housing, tons of eating out and entertainment. Household? Nada. Tobacco? Nada.
- anna sauce
Cool graphic. I can't tell how accurate it is, but it's worth pointing out that most people are not average, and average income is rarely used as a statistic since a large majority of people are below it (typically median income is used). I wonder if the site doesn't have a bit of an agenda (pork spending graphic and the one selling social security privatization), and it seems to be a...
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- Patrick
If you like this sort of thing, also check out visualizingeconomics.com (more academic, a bit left wing).
- Patrick
Wall Street on the Tundra - http://www.vanityfair.com/politic...
“Iceland is no longer a country. It is a hedge fund.”
- Patrick
For Debt Collectors, the Dead Are a Healthy Bet - http://www.nytimes.com/glogin...
Anthony Citrano, Melissa, Palak Mathur and 11 other people liked this
"The banks need another bailout and countless homeowners cannot handle their mortgage payments, but one group is paying its bills: the dead. Dozens of specially trained agents work on the third floor of DCM Services here, calling up the dear departed’s next of kin and kindly asking if they want to settle the balance on a credit card or bank loan, or perhaps make that final utility bill or cellphone payment. The people on the other end of the line often have no legal obligation to assume the debt of a spouse, sibling or parent. But they take responsibility for it anyway."
- Derrick
from Bookmarklet
“I am out of work now, to be honest with you, and money is very tight for us,” one man declared on a recent phone call after he was apprised of his late mother-in-law’s $280 credit card bill. He promised to pay $15 a month. Dead people are the newest frontier in debt collecting, and one of the healthiest parts of the industry. Those who dun the living say that people are so scared and...
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- Derrick
New hires at DCM train for three weeks in what the company calls “empathic active listening,” which mixes the comforting air of a funeral director with the nonjudgmental tones of a friend. The new employees learn to use such anger-deflecting phrases as “If I hear you correctly, you’d like...” “You get to be the person who cares,” the training manager, Autumn Boomgaarden, told a class of...
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- Derrick
And when confronted on the ethical status of their actions and policy, they will pull the "it's just business".
- Neal "thePuck" Jansons
one thing could be really good to borrow from past -- prohibition on profession for individuals, which try to go down the "it's just business" path.
- A. T.
mvb, but the point of the article is that lots of these people aren't obligated. This is a risk the banks are aware of and take into account. It's hard to see how it's legitimate for them to try to collect money from people with no obligations toward that debt.
- Patrick
Exactly. There is debt against an estate and there is scamming people in grief and out of ignorance. This practice should be prosecuted as such.
- Michael W. May
@MVB That's just not true. The CC company has to file their claim vs the estate, the estate is liquidated to pay the debts deemed legal (if there are contests), and then they must quit their case. They have no legal right to contact the executor of the estate after that estate is executed, and they are required to make their claim in a limited time. After that limited time elapses, it's over. You can't inherit debt. (grandfather who raised me died recently, so my mother and I just went through all of this).
- Neal "thePuck" Jansons
@MVB The estate will generally have a lawyer that is the executor or represents the executor. The executor is required to put a claim notice in the paper saying so and so has died and is obliged to send a notice of death to all known unsecured lenders. Many lenders have various death clauses and will simply quit their claims, but the ones who collect must do so within a certain period after the notice or forgo their claim. Unknown lenders simply have to catch the claim notice.
- Neal "thePuck" Jansons
this color photo was taken in 1915, you gotta see to believe it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
Miranda, Penguin, Just Katie and 6 other people liked this
awesome.
- Bren
...seriously? 1915?
- JA Castillo
@JA Castillo: of course 'seriously!' It's on Wikipedia isn't it!?
- Mark H
Very impressive.
- Derrick
Wow! Really 1915!?
- directeur
that's pretty awesome. i wonder how they uploaded it way back then....
- Morgan
the collection at the loc: http://www.loc.gov/exhibit...
- Patrick
I had a weird sex dream about woody allen. That is all.
Penguin, Josh Haley, Morton Fox and Thomas Hawk liked this
go on...
- Thomas Hawk
She has 0 comments and 0 likes...I wouldn't hold my breath for the story. :(
- Josh Haley
whoa! I never come on friendfeed - maybe i should start :)
- allison q mccarthy
who hasn't?
- Patrick
alright... so you were saying? Tell us more about this dream.
- Thomas Hawk
try beetlejuice.
- @CrystalinaB
Here I am, a thirty-five year old African-American man in Los Angeles. Have I been wrong all these years? To think that race is the issue when it might actually be class?
Eric Berlin, Palak Mathur, Phil Glockner and 26 other people liked this
It's usually both
- Shevonne
I think it's both, too. At least from my experience.
- ha3rvey ($10 HUGS!!!)
from fftogo
They overlap...a lot.
- Anna Haro
So does say, Will Smith have more in common with me or say, Tom Cruise?
- Derrick
So you identify as African-American for a race, what do you identify for as class?
- Sparky, lurking
Sparky: Broke.
- Derrick
Money does not equal class. Perfect example: Whitney Houston and Britney Spears
- Shevonne
Shevonne, I doubt Whitney and Britney have school loans that rival mine. And both of those heifers have no class, that much is true, but I meant of the socio-economic sort.
- Derrick
Tom Cruise is a category of one.
- David HC Soul
Derrick - you have a job. That makes you near-broke at worst.
- Sparky, lurking
Ok, David, so say, Will Smith and Jeff Bezos of Amazon. Are they of a similar ilk because they're in the same tax bracket?
- Derrick
If you can break down the issue in just one word, then you're definitely wrong.
- Richard Lawler
I can break it down to one word.. humanity. Being shitty to each other since the first human turned to the other and said "mine! not yours"
- alphaxion
Alphaxion gets today's cookie.
- FFing Enigma
*noms the cookie*
- alphaxion
My Criminal Justice 101 prof (summer of 99! woo!) insisted that cops weren't explicitly racist, they just necessarily dealt with lower-income suspects most of the time due to the nature of our society. Thus they developed animus towards the people they policed most often, who were largely ethnic minorities. I guess that's a long way of saying "blame the system". Not sure if that holds up under intense scrutiny but it was certainly food for thought.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
I'd never reduce it to just a word, Richard, but I'm thinking about life in my teens, watching friends being assaulted or worse by police, listening to Public Enemy and NWA like it was religion, and having that culminate with the Rodney King affair. But in my midthirties and in 2009, looking at economics, things just feel different. I'm not diminishing race, and certainly the two aren't mutually exclusive, it's just...wow, the world is really different.
- Derrick
Another thought - be glad its a class issue not a race issue. You can change your class after all!
- Sparky, lurking
I agree with Richard. The problems we face are too complicated and too broad to some up in just one word. They stretch across socio-economic boundaries like spilled milk on the ground.
- Jason Shultz
from twhirl
Nice, but I don't think humans have the monopoly on being shitty to each other.
- Richard Lawler
Our country is a capitalistic society. If you have the cash flow, it really doesn't matter what you look like.
- Mona Nomura
When you are dealing with people from the same socio-economic strata, race does matter more. But when you mix race and economic status, particularly as you go up the economic ladder, it gets more fuzzy. Will Smith probably has a better chance of getting into a swanky nightclub or restaurant in L.A. than Jeff Bezos. But what about an exclusive golf club in, say, Arizona?
- The original Kevin
Kevin - in this economy, no one gives a crap anymore. If you have the funds, you're in. Period.
- Mona Nomura
@richard I never said we had the monopoly.. just that it is certainly our worst trait. Our capacity to be shitty to each other shows no boundries :(
- alphaxion
@Matthew he had all the ladies
- Shevonne
Mona, I'd disagree. How many times have I walked into a shop ready to drop serious ducats and get ignored by the sales staff, only to have them practically slobber all over my white husband. When he deferred to me *then* I existed.
- Anika
But do the shop workers know you're ready to drop the cash?
- Mona Nomura
The problem isn't a concept or categorization, it's people. Too many are uncaring, unthoughtful, intolerant, insensitive, unsympathetic, ...
- ·[▪_▪]·
I'm used to being broke, and broke doesn't mean unhappy. Do I splurge on stuff I probably shouldn't? Possibly. But I'm also working my ass off so that there's something to enjoy in my future. I don't need to be wealthy, or obscenely rich. Even with what I have, I'm donating and giving to causes. I dunno. There was so much going on in that *other thread* I needed to vent.
- Derrick
As a small businessman; I can tell you the only color I care about is green. The private sector is way to competitive to exclude anyone, those that do, fail.
- Robert Hafer
Derrick, you are a good man and I can understand your need to vent. I'm keeping away while grinding my teeth and muttering foul retributions.
- WoH: Minding her Botts
Lindsey, I hear you, and I'm a firm believer that everyone should respect one another, and listen to reason, and be understanding. That isn't always the case.
- Derrick
*buys Matthew a beer*
- Derrick
I think it's both class and race, and they tie into each other. Political blogger Digby's been writing about stuff like this (off and on) for years now; this one (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2003... ) is from 2003 but still seems relevant to me.
- Andrew C (✓)
Of course they didn't, but they never bothered to ask. Instead, when my husband would in 5 min. after me, it's, "Hello, sir. Can I help you find anything?" I shouldn't have flash a gold card to get a simple greeting.
- Anika
faboo: I get the same thing in first class on some flights. (I get upgrades on two airlines.) If I'm "dressed up" it doesn't seem to happen as often. If I'm in sweats, it's like I'm invisible. Happens at some hotels, too. I'm gold on two and silver on another.
- ha3rvey ($10 HUGS!!!)
Lindsey, that's just so much bullshit, but it's favorite line to trot out. It's the assumption that my husband is well-dressed, which he most likely isn't. It's the assumption that we'd deign to waste our money on designer clothes, when we don't. And it's an assumption that someone who works retail at a furniture store is going to instantly know designer clothes, when most people couldn't tell real from fake in most instances.
- Anika
I find the Lindsey <-> Anika conversation here very interesting based on my own experiences... but it's super tangential and I wanna talk about it so am gonna start another post instead of being the usual threadjacka!
- Anthony Citrano
I don't see why you can't both be right. Your husband gets preferential treatment because he's white (wrongly, lest anyone think I approve of the practice); you (and Lindsey's friends) would get better treatment if your wardrobe screamed "I'm a bajillionaire and I am about to buy out some of your priciest items".
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Lindsey - then why have I never, ever had this experience? Weird. Anyway I started a thread about it. Daniel - have you seen how real billionaires dress?
- Anthony Citrano
Like Bruce Wayne, right? Right?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
My point, Daniel, is that I have a lot of wealthy friends - some of them extraordinarily so. I also know a lot of highly leveraged upper-middle-class/lower-upper-class wannabees. Which segment do you think (most of the time) wears/drives the "fancier" shit?
- Anthony Citrano
Anthony... if the latter group is the one that splurges on the more ostentatiously expensive clothing, it seems entirely logical that store salespeople flock to 'em rather than the people who -could- afford the stuff but -won't buy it-.
- Andrew C (✓)
Trish, you reminded me of the woman who runs MotherTalkers. She's Latina, her husband is Latino; their little boy is fair-skinned & blond. A few years ago we were talking about a similar subject and she mentioned that people in Berkeley always assume she's the child's nanny. I get the same thing with my own kids.
- Anika
Lindsey, I'm not denying what you've experienced, but it isn't universally true. An example of one (which means just that): a friend of mine, a middle-aged African-American, professionally-dressed professor, is constantly followed around by security guards when she goes shopping, whether that be at Target or Macy's. It doesn't matter. That is definitely about race.
- Katy S
People do react to the way others dress, but that is just one of the things that make up our appearance. Other things include skin color, weight, height, gender, etc. One thing we learn from studying student evaluations is that these things affect the way students respond to professors. I can't tell you how much bs a friend had to deal with one semester b/c she was female, short, and very pregnant. We know that tall men gain their students' respect more easily. This happens in the rest of the world, too
- Katy S
mr7ba mona kefek
- sanaddd
Mark, that's like Hancock Park here. Lots of old money, lots of old cars. You can always tell the social climber homes by the (number of) ostentatious cars in front. Lindsey, what are you on about? You didn't reference your experience, so how could I call that bullshit? Besides, it was clear that I was saying that the clothing excuse is bullshit. My goodness.
- Anika
Andrew, very good point re: consumption. But that's not the proffered thought process; you give them too much credit. How many times have I heard "wow, check out that guy's car/watch/whatever - he must be rich." I generally tend to have the opposite reaction (or at least a far more neutral/tempered one.) @Lindsey - I actually do regularly patronize high-end stores that cater to females (for several reasons.)
- Anthony Citrano
Re Smith and Bezos same ilk? ... if you call being "slightly wacky genius" as a social class :). I have trouble with the whole social class concept it tends to be most important to those suffering "imposter syndrome" or those that think they will change if "move up" - not all but dome of the "noveau rich" I've met have shown no class (let alone social) after coming into money (others have been the same after as before and are the happy ones)
- David HC Soul
Lindsey - It happens to her in the supermarket, too. Employees follow her. It happens to others, too. And this has happened to her in two different Upper Midwest university cities. And everyone shops at Target here. It's where the people who don't want to be seen in Wal-Mart go (that is, your middle class folks with ideals or "standards"). Anyway, it just happens. I'm as pale as can be and I've never been followed in a store to my knowledge, no matter how I've dressed.
- Katy S
My 2 cents: I've been treated remarkably well in public when I'm with my white boyfriend. This is in Indiana. I expected possibly some off behavior, but pretty much everyone has been cool, at least to my face. They even acknowledge that we're a couple without a hitch. We could just be a really good match on some subconscious level to the people we encounter.
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
The theory of intersectionality (arising out of feminist theory) says that the social and cultural categories you belong to interact leading to the specific inequality you may experience. Being poor and black, poor and white, rich and black, and rich and white are all different. Multiply again for gender, and other categories (although these are the most important). In other words, race and class aren't only important, they are important in their interaction and not just as independent issues.
- Patrick
Kamilah - glad to hear my home state is treating you well! It still has it's problems, particularly in certain regions, but it isn't all evil. :-)
- Katy S
thanks, I probably should have included that
- Patrick
Here's something to consider: If the LAPD were all black, would Rodney King still have gotten beat up? I think the answer is yes, which means class has more to do with it than you'd think.
- Gabe
Gabe, I don't think it's a good example, because the LAPD, whatever their race, still represents the group in power. The more pertinent question is if Rodney King were white, would they still have beaten him?
- Victor Ganata
OTOH, wealth does matter. If OJ weren't rich, would the murder trial have even lasted as long as it did?
- Victor Ganata
If OJ weren't rich, would I have still heard about the damn white bronco chase while I was living in Austria? And would I have had to hear so much about how psycho americans are for caring about the whole drama?
- Katy S
Hey my friend Patrick just joined - http://friendfeed.com/pbcar - I've been poaching his links and reposting them here for a while, so now I'll just have to find (ahem) my own content to post!
Mona Nomura, Just Katie, FFing Enigma and 3 other people liked this
yes, I have friends IRL! Sad but true.
- anna sauce
:) (yes I know that you don't like smilies but some are real and sincere)
- directeur
aw, thanks directeur.
- anna sauce
now I HAVE to post stuff
- Patrick
Lots of stuff Patrick! ;-) Seriously, I hope you'll enjoy the community here, and the discussions, we really share some very nice stuff, some people are real treasure: nice, über smart and funny like Anna!
- directeur
Thanks, I appreciate the welcome.
- Patrick
Hi Patrick! Let us know if you have any questions about FF: we're good at making up answers =D
- FFing Enigma
That's right, we have a secret handshake, secret inside jokes, a podcast...
- anna sauce
That's one thing that FF lacks, that Twitter has, is being able to call out random people like, oh Johnny Worthington, and him being able to find it (easily)
- anna sauce
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