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Peter Binfield › Comments

Peter Binfield
We just added Dublin Core RDFa to all our articles #PLoS #dublincore #semantic http://www.dragishak.com/?p=78
Looking forward to seeing what people do with it... - Peter Binfield
Bora Zivkovic
Love it when #PLoS papers get re-used on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Love it when #PLoS papers get re-used on YouTube: http://bit.ly/D9XRJ
Play
Absolutely, and wouldn't it appropriate for this user-generated video to be linked directly to the Manu. in question. Wait? Holy Spiderz... how did this happen :-) http://www.plosone.org/annotat... - Graham Steel
LOL! - Bora Zivkovic
Nice one Graham. - Bill Hooker
Alerted the author who said:- "Thanks, a already saw the video. Not sure I understand. Who made it? Matjaz". NACProductions1 based in the UK I think, was my reply. - Graham Steel
I had wondered whether it was anything to do with this business model: http://www.wired.com/magazin... - Peter Binfield
Seems like a reasonable call, Pete. - Graham Steel
Excellent number of views though (considerably more than the paper itself has...) - Peter Binfield
Actually, I take that back! I last looked at the paper yesterday, since which time it's views have increased by about 26,000! - Peter Binfield
Wow - that's good :) I've emailed the person who uploaded the video and asked them to consider placing a link to the PLoS ONE Manu in the video information tab... ++UPDATE++ they now have. xlnt !! - Graham Steel
Okay, so Florida is not such an exotic location, but our banana spiders (golden-orb) spin huge webs, and I've had to scramble to avoid walking into web that spanned 5-6 feet. - Mickey Schafer
Interesting, Mickey. We might need to consult with these guys for further input:- http://is.gd/4xTHT ;-) - Graham Steel
These are pretty well-known spiders here (the golden orbs; there is a brazilian banana spider that is actually horribly toxic) -- I leave their webs up all around the house because they eat grasshoppers like crazy -- have had them riding on my shoulders when clearing brush, and once on my calf...turns out they have very velvety-feeling undersides, and are the only spider that doesn't make me want to run screaming to someplace like Antarctica. "2 Princes"? One of my favorite tunes! - Mickey Schafer
Spinning (sorry) back to PLoS EVERYONE from 2 days ago, it's worth tying in the post Worth a Thousand Threads http://everyone.plos.org/2009... into this one. Having re-read it, I see that there is a somewhat sombre note to this discovery and I must pass on my regards to Dr Matjaž Kunter in respect of the sad loss of their best friend Andrej Komac who died in an accident at the time of the discoveries. This I have now done. - Graham Steel
PLoS ONE in the Media/Blogs
Uni of Washington and Harvard win best OA medical article of the last 5 years in PLoS Med competition http://www.healthmetricsandeva...
Journal site down for "routine maintainence". Disappointing. - Bill Hooker
It was less than an hour though while we did our latest sprint upgrade. We now have all the usage data on all the articles... - Peter Binfield
I demand 100% uptime! No excuses! (Yeah, OK, I was a bit of an ass there.) - Bill Hooker
Mike Chelen
Visualization 'PLoS article age and PDF downloads per day' - http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeye...
Visualization 'PLoS article age and PDF downloads per day'
seems to show that more recent articles have higher rates of PDF downloads - Mike Chelen
Mike - a possibly related thought. Are you counting the age correctly in light of the fact that the data is only up to end-July? - Peter Binfield
Peter: recent entries to be some lower than they should be because "days old" is calculated with the current date. to correct this, the collection date is needed, which may be mentioned somewhere - Mike Chelen
Yep, all data in this sheet was only up to July 31st 2009 - Peter Binfield
Mike Chelen
Shows that PLoS One has an overall equal rate of citation to PLoS Biology, and that more of One's articles have been published in a recent year. - Mike Chelen
Has anyone generated a slightly nicer data object out of this data yet? Been thinking of graphing the correlations of downloads versus citations versus whatever and similar for different journals which really requires a bit of cleaning up the data to be effective but if someone has already done it? - Cameron Neylon
Cameron: what else needs to be done to make the data more usable? the source data here is available as TSV http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeye... and CSV or XLS too, is there any other format that would be better? - Mike Chelen
I was wanting to do some analysis that included comparing papers based on time of publication i.e. "what is the average trajectory of downloads?" as well as comparing these across journals so I was hoping someone might have converted to either SQL and/or a set of python objects containing lists of downloads/citations/pageviews by month. Not difficult to do myself but just wondered whether someone else had already. - Cameron Neylon
is this other ManyEyes dataset helpful? http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeye... it contains the "per day" figures for most of the metrics, including PDF and XML downloads. some spreadsheet and CSV files are also in a github repository http://github.com/mchelen... which might be convenient for import to SQL - Mike Chelen
That would certainly do one of the things I had in mind but the big problem I was having was with wanting to come up with average initial rates and saturation points to see if there are any characteristics of "hot" vs "slow-burn" papers. I saw some evidence of this in the very crude graph analysis I did when the stats first came out. - Cameron Neylon from twhirl
how could the change in rates for each article be determined given only the totals? while the plos website includes a chart of an article's recent history, the data released so far can show how older and newer articles compare in terms of downloads per day like PDF files http://friendfeed.com/mikeche... - Mike Chelen
Cameron: here can be seen which years and journals have articles with the most downloads per day http://friendfeed.com/mikeche... is this close to what you have in mind? - Mike Chelen
Looks very nice Mike. We should have all the 'missing' usage data (pre Aug 2005 and first 200 PLoS ONE articles) added sometime this week. - Peter Binfield
Peter: great thanks, looking forward to it! any preferences or suggestions about where people might want to look for or share data analysis results? - Mike Chelen
Mike, just realised that I've got a somewhat different dataset that I think hasn't been publicly released yet which includes all these parameters by month - but as Pete points out there are some dates missing. - Cameron Neylon
Actually Cameron, you dont. We have released the usage data down to the month level (and you may be referring to that), but not the citation/bookmarks/blogs/comment/notes etc data (although we track cumulative data on these items, by the month, we only started tracking it in March, so dont really have enough monthly data to release - though we could if people felt it was valuable) - Peter Binfield
Cameron: how about this to see differences in citation source (scopus, pubmed, crossref) grouped by journal: http://friendfeed.com/mikeche... or similarly to look at the combined citation types of each journal: http://friendfeed.com/mikeche... - Mike Chelen
Peter & Cameron: ah yes, there is history data is in the other sheets, hadn't even started looking past the first one =) - Mike Chelen
PLoS ONE in the Media/Blogs
Interactive 3D Molecules in PLoS ONE articles - http://everyone.plos.org/2009...
Interactivity Demonstration
Play
Peter, how will citing one point in such a process go? http://ff.im/8HPXx - Claudia Koltzenburg
Good point Claudia. I queried the SGC people and they will consider this for a future release. - Peter Binfield
Peter Binfield
Download all the PLoS article level metrics data here (includes ALL usage data!). http://www.plos.org/downloa...
is this file CC Attribution like the rest of PLoS, or non-copyrightable since it is data? this always confuses me :D - Mike Chelen
I guess it is CC0, that is the recommended CC for data - http://creativecommons.org/publicd... - Peter Binfield
Peter: that is great, could someone add a note to the website? thanks very much! - Mike Chelen
jambina
anyone heard any backlash from journals about others "semi-publishing" work in PLoS Currents and the like? a colleague is wondering how the big gun journals would treat pre-publication dissemination of data, particulary in the field of public health where said data is absolutely critical to shaping the response to something like a pandemic.
Not yet, but it's probably coming. I suspect the reaction will be equal to whatever the current reaction is to preprint distribution. - D0r0th34
Speaking for the PLoS titles, pre-print publication (including models such as PLoS Currents) does not preclude consideration and publication at one of our journals. - Peter Binfield
thanks Peter - i think she's more concerned with non-PLoS titles (Lancet, NEJM). she's going to use this as a moment to fight against restrictive publishing policies (she works in public health and thinks if getting the word out saves lives, publishers should wake up). - jambina
Well - good luck to her, she has my support! Funny how when there is a public health issue closed-access journals will often make their articles on the topic Open Access... - Peter Binfield
Mike Chelen
Experimental PLoS ALM import to Drupal with Node Import, CCK and Faceted Search - http://plos-alm.opensci.info/
CCK node types available at http://github.com/mchelen... and CSV format data at http://github.com/mchelen... . - Mike Chelen from Bookmarklet
The goal is to help people find answers to questions about the data through a web interface. For example, to see which PLoS Biology non-research article had the most Pubmed citations in 2008, http://plos-alm.opensci.info/faceted... . Then hopefully to make the results available as XML, JSON and more. - Mike Chelen
XML or JSON would be fun since the results could be pulled into graphic APIs like Google Charts - Mike Chelen
Mike - this is exactly the type of thing we are hoping people will start doing with this data. Let me know how we can help! - Peter Binfield
Peter: with so much useful data, seeing everything done with it is exciting. a filtered search has been implemented http://plos-alm.opensci.info/article... (uses CCK and Views) with the results now available as RSS. more frequently updated source data would definitely be helpful for everyone interested in the latest information, thanks! - Mike Chelen
raw XML now available, change the url from rss.xml to raw.xml with any RSS feed - Mike Chelen
Mike - in the next couple of weeks we will add all the 'missing' usage data (pre-July 05 and 1st 200 PLoS ONE articles). I will ping you when we have it in an excel sheet. - Peter Binfield
Mike Chelen
Fwd: "Wikipedia for academic research". Post a summary of your research to increase its impact. http://acawiki.org/Home (via http://friendfeed.com/plosone...)
it looks like semantic mediawiki? - Mike Chelen
ah thanks, interesting to see which extensions they are using - Mike Chelen
Noteworthy: so far, 18 summaries of articles in PLoS Biol., 12 in PLoS Med. (None in PLoS ONE). - Jim Till
Perhaps noteworthy: the vast majority of edits in the last thirty days are by two people. It's hard to build critical mass... http://acawiki.org/index... - Andrew Su
the site looks pretty new, sometimes starting fresh produces the best results, although it can be useful to find some existing data to import initially - Mike Chelen
The site launched this week. The PLoS articles were seeded using the Editor Summaries that PLoS Bio and PLoS Med routinely publish - Peter Binfield
Peter: wondering if the data was converted from another format, or does PLoS supply RDF directly? is there any description of the process used? - Mike Chelen
We didnt work with them on this (other than to have some early meetings). I suspect they just copied and pasted... However, it can be extracted from our XML file of course. - Peter Binfield
Hilary
New OA-option (e.g. hybrid), online-only journal from NPG: Nature Communications (http://www.nature.com/press_r...) (repost from http://friendfeed.com/hspence...)
not so disdainful of the PLoS model now, are we? ;) - Wladimir Labeikovsky
haha, thought TA journal publishers have been more skeptical than disdainful, hope this effort can make progress in addressing both :) - Mike Chelen
very interesting and worthwhile diversifying the offerings on the OA, online-only front. - Heather
Considering this will be a hybrid Subscription / Open Access journal, it will be very interesting (assuming they make the data available) to see what the differences are in usage levels for individual articles between toll access and OA. - Peter Binfield
This follows an announcement from 2 weeks ago of Cell Death & Disease, a new OA (not hybrid) and online-only journal from NPG. NPG has also been publishing Molecular Systems Biology, a fully OA journal, since 2005 and offers the OA option for 14 other journals. - Hilary
Well said Hilary. - Maxine
Kevin Z
I just wore my PLoS ONE tshirt on Brazilian national TV. The shirt (and I) will be on a 30 min. special on Brazilian TV w/ millions of viewers. Multiple science communication projects... doing it right? ;p
Truly Awesome...... - Graham Steel
Grab a screen shot and send it to us! - Peter Binfield
w00t! - Bora Zivkovic
Graham Steel
"Open Access, PLoS article level metrics part of syllabus for PhD course at Uni Hyderabad" by Dr Niyaz Ahmed. http://niyazahmed.blogspot.com/2009...
"Impressed by PLoS style, our university here decided to teach Open Access, creative reuse and article level metrics to entry level PhD students in Life Sciences. I am grateful to the university authorities for enabling us to direct such a timely and important course for the first time in the history of graduate teaching in India; see the course curriculum approved by the university below. I hope many other universities and institutes will be able to replicate this course." - Graham Steel
very nice! that would be a fun course to help out with, I'm thinking - D0r0th34
@D0r0th34 sweet. Cap-tip to Niyaz for so quickly putting this together. - Graham Steel
Sounds to me like the kind of course any well rounded academic should be required to take in the 21st century. - Peter Binfield from iPhone
I'll include some of that in my Chemical Information Retrieval course starting this week - Jean-Claude Bradley
Excellent, Jean-Claude. - Graham Steel
If you have a repository-rat or scholarly-communication librarian on your campus, this person is a source of (free!) help. Just sayin'. Can't hurt to ask your liaison librarian or bibliographer or selector, even; s/he might be up to the job too. - D0r0th34
her name is Peggy Dominy and she is always very helpful for the cheminfo course - she is speaking with my class the second week I think - Jean-Claude Bradley
OT "her name is Peggy Dominy"? I thought it was 'Rio' "and she dances on the sand" :- http://ff.im/8hXl8 - LOL - Graham Steel
Peggy is pretty cool - she might dance in the sand if we ask her :) - Jean-Claude Bradley
SOMEBODY owes me a new keyboard and a root beer. - D0r0th34
The same somebody owes me a new brain after I bleach this one to try to get rid of the goddam earworm! - Bill Hooker
Duncan Hull
Popular, personal and public data: Article-level metrics at PLoS « O'Really? - http://duncan.hull.name/2009...
Popular, personal and public data: Article-level metrics at PLoS « O'Really?
"The Public Library of Science (PLoS) is a non-profit organisation committed to making the world’s scientific and medical literature freely accessible to everyone via open access publishing. As recently announced they have just published the first article-level metrics (e.g. web server logs and related information) for all articles in their library. This is novel, interesting and potentially useful data, not currently made publicly available by other publishers. Here is a  selection of some of the data, taken from the full dataset here (large file), which includes the “top ten” papers by viewing statistics." - Duncan Hull from Bookmarklet
Excellent post, Duncan. - Graham Steel
@Graham ta, Go PLoS! See also Bora at http://scienceblogs.com/clock... and neurotechnica http://neurotechnica.com/2009... - Duncan Hull
Request stats seem more useful to judge how well a website is working (e.g. what features are used or how a specific change affected response times) than making any inferences about the content. The numbers are so easy to game that I'd hate seeing them getting established as a competitive measure. That said, it's nice that they provide the data (though it's not detailed enough to drill down if you spot a suspicious number). - Eric Jain
Sweet. Thanks a million Dullhunk. You rock. - 'Mummi' Thorisson
On a related note - Bollen et al. Clickstream data yields high-resolution maps of science. PLoS ONE (2009) vol. 4 (3) http://dx.doi.org/10... (discussed on FF the other day: http://ff.im/1y6fd and http://ff.im/WP1r). - 'Mummi' Thorisson
hey ... you picked some weird papers to look at :p - Pedro Beltrao
Blog coverage totals: Postgenomic - 2728, Bloglines - 127, Nature Blogs - 98. Bookmark totals: CiteULike 11746, Connotea 2238. - Neil Saunders
Indeed - it is interesting to see which services dominate. For blogs, we will be adding blog coverage from researchblogging.org soon (which should have a large number of records to report) and for bookmarks we are working closely with Mendeley and expect to add data from them as well. - Peter Binfield
A thought that occurred to me earlier today is that there's been a deadly silence from traditional STM publishers and indeed other OA publishers since word about this (PLoS) development came out last Wednesday http://www.plos.org/cms... . Anyone care to comment on this? - Graham Steel
@pedro @neil @boscoh I deliberately picked weird papers :) @Graham if the @Binfield hypothesis is correct, traditional publishers are reluctant to give out this sort of information because they are afraid of what it might show... - Duncan Hull
Jill O'Neill
The Open Source Paleontologist: Does Anyone Read Our Papers? - http://openpaleo.blogspot.com/2009...
impact factor/citation/ usage - Jill O'Neill
Yups, read that earlier. Reminds me of a talk I watched by John Willinsky. Essentially, he says to the audience "great so you've had your paper published. Has anyone actually read it??". It got a laugh from the audience before they then probably thought, "hey, that's a very good point actually". He then encouraged those present to self archive their papers, if they weren't OA to provide the best possible access. - Graham Steel
The thing of it is that we're still not capturing what I think we want to, which is actually usage and/or engagement with content. I can download hundreds of articles in a year; work through them slowly and perhaps use 1% of what's been downloaded. At what point does one determine usage value? Even if I download it with the intention of reading it, I either (a) may never get around to... more... - Jill O'Neill
I suspect in most fields papers are not generally completely and carefully read. This is particularly true in synthetic chemistry papers - I will usually jump straight to the experimental section if I am trying to do a synthesis and ignore the rest of the paper - unless there is an additional compelling reason for reading it. - Jean-Claude Bradley
Usage in the context of strategic reading is different from the context of immersive reading. I get that, but given that the current transitional economic transactions (between publisher and librarian) are largely based on usage as opposed to volume of content (the subscription model of so many issues per year), getting to the nub of just how we measure usage is key. Funding types look... more... - Jill O'Neill
Finding out how people use scientific information is very difficult. Most of the papers that I read will never get formally cited even though they were important in deciding what to do (or not do). When people search for our solubility data we ask them to tell us how they will use it but we have never had anyone do so. http://onschallenge.wikispaces.com/Data+Us... Our best way to evaluate this is from the search phrases that led them to our measurements. - Jean-Claude Bradley
All good. I guess what PLoS have done, has opened an uncharted Chapter. It's another bold move and it doesn't surprise me that the blogosphere has been awash with reporting and discussion about this and the potential ramifications. Personally, I think this is a v. good thing and when navigating uncharted waters (something I'm rather used to) the best #qotd that springs to mind (took yonks to re-find) but it's... - Graham Steel
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no path and leave a trail". ~Ralph Waldo Emerson - IMHO, PLoS has left a trail for others. But will they follow ?? I for one sure hope that other key players do. - Graham Steel
IMHO, in all discussions around article-level metrics and the "bold move" of PLoS, there seems to be little mention of the COUNTER project : http://www.projectcounter.org/, which is thinking about new usage metrics. We may not be in the deployment phase yet but this institutional initiative shows that publishers are well aware of the stakes and working on it. And also that the idea has... more... - Enro
And we are also well aware of COUNTER. We adhered to the COUNTER 3 standards for our usage stats and we have been in close discussions with people (Peter Shepherd etc) working at COUNTER and PIRUS (http://www.jisc.ac.uk/whatwed...). We also hope and expect that all publishers will be doing this very soon! - Peter Binfield
Frank
RT @dullhunk: @egonwillighagen ... only "publish" the data as an #excel spreadsheet, mm where is the #plos api?
It's coming. One thing at a time... - Peter Binfield from iPhone
@p_binfield looking forward to using it :) - Frank
Shirley Wu
Article-level metrics at PLoS – addition of usage data | PLoS - http://www.plos.org/cms...
"PLoS has ... embarked on a program to aggregate a range of available data about an article and place that data on the article itself. The data are found on the new tab called ‘Metrics’, available on all articles. A reader can now scan the various metrics to determine the extent to which the article has been viewed, cited, covered in the media and so forth. " - Shirley Wu from Bookmarklet
Cool :), finally as an author I get the same sort of information in a published article as I would get with a blog post. - Pedro Beltrao
More info at: http://article-level-metrics.plos.org/ as well as at http://www.plosone.org/static... (same page exists for each journal) and at our FAQ: http://www.plos.org/about.... Then we have Summary data tables at: http://www.plosbiology.org/static... (same page exists for each journal) and we are providing the entire data set as a download at: http://www.plos.org/downloa... Enjoy! - Peter Binfield
The downloadable file is awesome... - Andrew Su
This release also included the ability to do cross journal search (see our Advanced Search form) - Peter Binfield
that's great, very convenient - Mike Chelen
Peter Binfield
PLoS places usage data on all published articles. Major new development for our article level metrics http://www.plos.org/cms...
More info at: http://article-level-metrics.plos.org/ as well as at http://www.plosone.org/static... (same page exists for each journal) and at our FAQ: http://www.plos.org/about.... Then we have Summary data tables at: http://www.plosbiology.org/static... (same page exists for each journal) and we are providing the entire data set as a download at: http://www.plos.org/downloa... - Peter Binfield
Peter Binfield
PLoS ONE wins the '09 ALPSP Award for Publishing Innovation! Thanks to everyone who has ever worked, contributed or reviewed for us!
Nice ONE !! - Graham Steel
The finalists list is at: http://www.alpsp.org/ngen_pu... - Peter Binfield
Seriously though, who else could they have chosen? - Bill Hooker
Does this signal that ALPSP is starting to "get it" themselves? - Mr. Gunn
Good question Mr Gunn. - Bill Hooker
Full announcement info is now at: http://everyone.plos.org/2009... - Peter Binfield
Daniel Mietchen
Limitations: (1) 140 chars is too limited to accomodate a typical URI, (2) needs to be coupled to author ID, (3) only one rating dimension as of now. - Daniel Mietchen
if we could aggregate a whole bunch of different comments from different sources and translate them automatically to fit? Or provide a link to the comment rather than the full text of the comment? - Cameron Neylon from twhirl
Ok, now I've looked properly. Would probably need to build a slightly more intelligent service but if you could parse links then there are two very nice things here. One is linking id, and review via URLs but the other is that this actually matches the PubSub-Syndicate mechanism that Jon Udell talk a lot about much better than commenting on websites (...now where is that half written blog post...?) - Cameron Neylon
the comment text from people usually contains even more helpful information than rating metrics - Mike Chelen
Daniel: what about linking by DOI? - Mike Chelen
DOIs can still be very long - plus you'd probably want to give them in the http form so that makes them even longer. Mike, agree the text can be more useful but if it is held somewhere else then the tweet only needs to reference it via a shortened link was what I was thinking - Cameron Neylon
The DOI problem could be solved if the @hreview service were to expand the shortened URL per default. - Daniel Mietchen
Also, we need a URI scheme for anything on the web, from blog entries to wiki edits to @hreview ratings. - Daniel Mietchen
Cameron:probably the posts could contain shortened DOI URLs that were expanded in the underlying hReview - Mike Chelen
Daniel: can the hCard support be used to integrate with other author ID systems? - Mike Chelen
Yes, hCard can do this: http://microformats.org/wiki... . What we need is a functional author ID scheme. - Daniel Mietchen
What would be a suitable license for ratings? http://www.opencritics.de/ use http://creativecommons.org/license... - Daniel Mietchen
CC-BY-ND certainly makes sense for the pure values (text or numbers) of the ratings, but isn't it too restrictive for reuse, e.g. aggregation? - Daniel Mietchen
Daniel: there are clauses to specifically allow collections, but it's never been clear to me exactly how ND applies to subsets or programmatic reuse. - Mike Chelen
Nor to me, Mike, but the opencritics are open to criticism (I had to bring that) and suggestions, and have lawyers to sort such things out properly. More to come on that by tomorrow - just had them on the phone. - Daniel Mietchen
Examples of CC-licensed ratings provided by OpenCritics: http://bit.ly/JwQiH (simple), http://bit.ly/42H3l3 (more detail) - scroll down in both cases. - Daniel Mietchen
Further thoughts on such rating schemes for science: http://bit.ly/2xJpKD , http://bit.ly/18jc9o and http://bit.ly/5HzJR . - Daniel Mietchen
Emerging impact measures based on @tweprints stats are described at http://bit.ly/FZp7a . - Daniel Mietchen
hmm, 140 characters won't work. We need an article social activity aggregation service, could then be mirrored onto twitter or where ever. Like stramosphere, but just for articles. Euan should write it. - Ian Mulvany
Should note that CrossRef is thinking of creating alternative shortened DOIs that could address some of these problems. Working name is "toydoi". Advantage of CrossRef is we could avoid spam-plague faced by traditional URL shorteners. Would be good to hear from interested parties to understand use cases. - Geoffrey Bilder
Ian, I think that "article social activity aggregation service" is a good description for what Mendeley are up to - still a bit rough a toy, but improving very fast. - Daniel Mietchen
Geoffrey, good to read that. However, the length of DOI is just one problem, and more pressing from my point is to develop a DOI-like URI scheme for anything cited in a scientific context (and for anyone citing, too), e.g. via automatic deposit at places like Webcitation or Portico (and using some sort of author ID). And before going public with that working name, they might wish to invite comments from speakers of Vietnamese. - Daniel Mietchen
So we've also been thinking a little bit about how to assign identifiers to new forms of scholarly communication- thinks like blogs, wikis, data sets, etc. Some background can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/m68jlq - Geoffrey Bilder
Yes, that's useful background. Do you have an update on the current situation? - Daniel Mietchen
hReview supports multiple rating dimensions if the site could use it - Mike Chelen
Google are about to roll out what they call "Rich snippets" for selected sites, harvesting info provided via hreview, RDFa or similar: http://bit.ly/3bGVlE & http://bit.ly/SxWES . Would be nice to see this coupled (for scientists logged in with their author ID) with ratings like at PLoS ONE. - Daniel Mietchen
Microformats for biological (and possibly even other, e.g. chemical) species ( http://microformats.org/wiki... ): "Imagine viewing a web page with a reference to a species - and being able to use an add-on to you browser to be taken directly to information about that species, on, say, Wikipedia, or Wikispecies, or Google Images, or another site, such as in an academic database, of your choosing." - Daniel Mietchen
@Daniel - check out NameLink from Enc of Life - exactly what you are talking about. http://labs.eol.org/... - Peter Binfield
Thanks, Peter: Yes, EoL was in the mind of the writer of this phrase (he also quotes Wilson), but NameTag and the species microformat are two different approaches to this goal, and only the latter bears some resemblance to article-level metrics. - Daniel Mietchen
Interesting discussion going on at http://groups.google.com/group... . - Daniel Mietchen
Wonder what might be a good basis for building a similar service? - Mike Chelen
Egon Willighagen
Arghh... why does #plos #one not list the #DOI on the front page?! now our #Postgenomic and #Chemicalblogspace #userscript does not work :(
Yes we do. Front page of what? - Peter Binfield from iPhone
Of the paper... mmm, I'll look again... - Egon Willighagen
Oh! Now I see it... it comes *after* the Abstract... ic. Well, I have yet my first PONE paper to read... clearly! - Egon Willighagen
lol @ Egon :-) - Björn Brembs
PLoS ONE in the Media/Blogs
The Future of Online Publishing (Presentation to ISMTE) - http://everyone.plos.org/2009...
Why will the 3D structure not be embedded into the PDF? - Daniel Mietchen
I guess it will as a 2D image, but how do you rotate a 2D image? - Bora Zivkovic
Twist the page? - Peter Binfield from iPhone
Peter, you said it would be included as a screenshot. To me, this simply emphasizes the flatness of the paper medium, but when reading pdfs offline, 3D embeds would certainly be handy too: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal... . There are also some LaTeX packages like http://www.ctan.org/tex-arc... . - Daniel Mietchen
Peter Binfield
Interview with me :) at Martin Fenner's blog http://network.nature.com/people...
@Peter did I mention yet that Chemical blogspace (http://cb.openmolecules.net/) uses the same API as Postgenomic, and that it has many chemistry blogs that Euan did not add to Postgenomic? - Egon Willighagen
@Egon - can you email me (can't find your email...)? - Peter Binfield
Shirley Wu
The evolution of scientific impact - http://shirleywho.wordpress.com/2009...
The clearest, most nicely written post on the entire issue. Well done! - Bora Zivkovic
submitted to Open Lab 09 - Bora Zivkovic
Shirley - this is an excellent essay on this topic, which is very close to my heart. Well done! - Peter Binfield
Shirley, excellent (LONG) post. Can't wait to read your books ;) - Ricardo Vidal
Thanks! This took me a couple days pretty much full-time to write (the luxury of not working a job right now); how do people with jobs do this?? - Shirley Wu
Tom Roud (?) writes an interesting rebuttal against article-level metrics - or at least cautions against some of the metrics that might be used (such as blog and media coverage). It's in French but I used Google translator to read it. My memory of high school French classes only allowed me to decipher the first paragraph, and get the gist that it was an argument against. http://tomroud.com/2009... - Shirley Wu
The post on tomroud.com is interesting. Both your response on his post and the comment by Mitch on your post address most of his concerns, methinks. Popularity contests are no good, but there are ways around them (Mitch), they are just one of many metrics to be used with caution (PLoS), and GlamourMagz are also popularity contests where quirky papers have no chance (you). But his thesis... more... - Bora Zivkovic
@shirley: how do we do it? In pieces over many days... - Björn Brembs
or get a job where writing this stuff is what you are supposed to be doing ;-) - Bora Zivkovic
Having read the piece, I actually have some less vacuous comments: 1. To my knowledge, Garfield introduced the IF to help librarians cut subscriptions, not for scientists to help them chose publishing venues? 2. As you point out, journal level metrics are mathematically inadequate for what they are used for now. However, Thomson's IF specifically is worthless because it is negotiable... more... - Björn Brembs
I think recent interview with Pete Binfield is a good addition to this thread at this point: http://network.nature.com/people... - Bora Zivkovic
Martin Fenner
Journal Club: A Principal Component Analysis of 39 Scientific Impact Measures: http://dx.doi.org/10...
FriendFeed as a tool to organize journal clubs: http://network.nature.com/people... - Martin Fenner
OH, so you CAN attach PDFs directly. I didn't realize that. Very nice, Martin! - Mr. Gunn
Martin, Distribution the paper for journal club online is not a problem. The real problem is critical mass of people for productive discussion. I've been thinking about for a while and I realize we have enough good tools online, but we don't have people who really want to do it. Let's take one typical academic lab as an example. Let's say 10 people in the lab (postdocs + grad students).... more... - Alexey
Alexey, I replied to your similar comment that you left on my blog. I think it is easier to convince the people you directly work with to use an online tool, assuming they see a real benefit. And it helps if you are in a senior position. - Martin Fenner
Why not use Dropbox? Much easier, more reliable and can generate the same traction for discussions among a small group. - Paulo Nuin
Disadvantages of Dropbox and similar file sharing tools: a) sometimes you want to share the link to the paper (DOI) and not the PDF file itself for copyright reasons, b) I want to associate comments with the file, e.g. to announce date and presenter of the journal club, or to link to related resources. - Martin Fenner
You can have html files, text files, any type of files that can be update regularly and everyone will have instant access to any changes. You can host a wiki on Dropbox if you want. I bet you are assuming that FF will be here forever, right? - Paulo Nuin
Actually, as I'm currently administrating our JC, I'd love to have a specialized site with dedicted JC functionality. - Björn Brembs
Paulo, you said yesterday "I bet you are assuming that FF will be here forever, right?". Did you know something about the FriendFeed/Facebook deal that we didn't? - Martin Fenner
I wish I knew something. Could have bought some stocks. - Paulo Nuin
LOL, Paulo, I recommended Dropbox to Martin also, on the NN thread. - Mr. Gunn
I think Dropbox is a better alternative here, because you control the data, if they disappear you still have it, you just need to jump to another alternative system. There are no terms of usage, no outside control of your data/posts/comments. - Paulo Nuin
Why not do the JC on the paper itself? We do it every now and then: http://everyone.plos.org/2009... I coordinate. Just ping me by e-mail. - Bora Zivkovic
Doing the JC at the paper is a great idea. Encourages comments at PLoS. If you take it elsewhere, aren't you just creating needless distribution problems? - Neil Saunders
If the journal does not allow comments? - Paulo Nuin
not talking about other journals, but since this is a PLoS ONE paper, use the functionality to the full - Bora Zivkovic
I know, but then you going yo have a JC on a different site every week. - Paulo Nuin
sure. or just do all your JCs on PLoS papers ;-) - Bora Zivkovic
Bora, great idea, but we probably need additional functionality, e.g. an individualized list of past and upcoming journal club papers. - Martin Fenner from iPhone
Pubmed could also add a Journal Club function to their site. - Martin Fenner from iPhone
There shouldn't be other scientific journals, just PLoS One. Nirvana! - Paulo Nuin
Good shout Martin. Does anyone else agree? - Graham Steel
Are people already making PLoS One subsections? That is, feeds dedicated to one research field? So that I don't have to scan 1000 headlines for this one cheminformatics paper? - Egon Willighagen
They have subsections, not sure if they have separate feeds. - Björn Brembs
Journal Club using the PLoS One website: not just comments, but also ratings and notes (i.e. comments within the text). - Martin Fenner
@Björn: thanx, I had a closer look and the indeed do even have RSS feeds for the 'subjects' they have. E.g. Chemistry RSS is at http://feeds2.feedburner.com/plosone... - Egon Willighagen
All RSS Feeds are at: http://www.plosone.org/static... (hint: follow the icon that says "RSS" in the top right hand corner). We break our content out into 50 odd subject areas. These feeds include the abstracts and so if you wanted to further filter your RSS feed then you could use Yahoo Pipes running against a specific feed with a specific keyword match - Peter Binfield
Bora Zivkovic
Why Exercise is Not the Best Prescription for Weight Loss http://www.theexaminingroom.com/2009... #PLoS
that's a nice review, too bad he didn't use the ResearchBlogging tags :( - Christina Pikas
That was my first thought as well and I am going to ask him to do it and thus be eligible for the Pick Of The Month.... - Bora Zivkovic
If the mean weight of the 12 KWW according to the table was around 83kg. This means that they burned around 12*83 kcal (996 kcal) in a week. This is the amount I burn when I go running for about 80 minutes (at least according to my running watch). So is this really surprising that this rather low amount of burned calories didn't translate into more weight loss ? - Daniel Jurczak
It's nice when a study appeals to personal preconceptions :-) I'm a big believer in exercise as a part of daily life (= moving around a lot, walking), as opposed to a special, extra activity (running, gyms). - Neil Saunders
I really don't understand why people find it so important to use the ResearchBlogging icon. I never put it on my own blog posts about peer-reviewed research. Is it not obvious when a blog post supports its statements with proper sources? Why should I put an icon from someone else on my blog posts to point out the obvious? - Lars Juhl Jensen
I agree with Daniel, the study might not represent the ppl who actually do something during their 200min/week workout. If they were to run 7mph for 30min a day they would burn 3000+kcal. - marcin
@Lars - it's not (only, just, really) so we trust you more, it's so we can find you more easily! The point is to list these things together so that a journalist or patient or teacher or random lay person can find them - Christina Pikas
Correct - not just that you get more traffic, but that traffic is of high quality: people who are actively looking for high-quality blogging. The aggreggator is highly regarded and valued by the non-blogging community as a portal into high quality blogging. For example, I give my monthly Blog Of The Month award at PLoS ONE only to posts aggregated at ResearchBlogging.org. - Bora Zivkovic
I guess what I have against ResearchBlogging is that I feel it will highlight the least important posts on my blog. I'm allowed to slap the icon on a post where I write a commentary on some already published research, but when I do what I think is real research blogging - namely to blog primary research results before they are published elsewhere - then I'm not allowed to put the icon on the post. - Lars Juhl Jensen
highlighting certain posts will also bring more attention to your other posts, in my experience. I'm glad you mention this, because I've not heard this complaint before. Your primary research posts are probably more relevant for those in your research area whereas your ones on published research might have a wider appeal and could benefit from wider attention maybe? - Christina Pikas
Whereas any traffic to my blog will obviously tend to bring in a few extra hits to other posts (although not many in my experience), I don't think that my commentaries are aimed at a broader readership than my other posts. I generally blog about science for scientists in the same field - my aim is not to do outreach and try to make papers accessible to a broader public. Maybe that simply places me outside the scope of ResearchBlogging? - Lars Juhl Jensen
I don't find myself using the #researchblogging service either... I like the idea, but it is just too much work - Egon Willighagen
Another problem I have is that I am not sure which of my posts live up to the guidelines of ResearchBlogging. Most of my posts related to peer-reviewed papers present also my own additional analyses of the primary data published in the paper I discuss. The posts are thus a mix of peer-reviewed and non-reviewed results. It is not clear to me if I would even be allowed to put the icon on them, so I decided to not bother with it. - Lars Juhl Jensen
sounds like the right choice for you, so no reason to question it. - Christina Pikas
Deepak said it better than I: "it’s equating *serious* with peer review that I have a problem with" (http://mndoci.com/blog...) - Lars Juhl Jensen
Hi folks -- Excellent debate going on here. A couple points. First, you should realize that our current requirement of discussing peer-reviewed work is just a first step. We're working on a way to aggregate posts about conference presentations, and posts on ongoing research shouldn't be far behind. It's true that "serious" <> "peer-reviewed," but discussions referencing peer-reviewed literature are very likely to be serious, so this is an easy first pass at sorting the chaff from the wheat. - Dave Munger
Second, our interface has gotten much easier to use. If the last time you tried the site was more than two months ago, you should definitely give it another shot. - Dave Munger
The important thing is that you have the correct markup in the page, not that you're displaying some icon. Anyone can display that image and not be aggregated by your site. Dave, that's why we've been stressing, even before the site was running, that it's not about the icon, but the markup. - Mr. Gunn
To return to the topic at hand, however, I think the study is obviously flawed and in fact quite irresponsible to be making such a claim. The major fuck-up, and I mean that literally, was allowing the exercising group to eat more. Still, they lost a full inch of abdominal fat, which isn't useless. Again, this is a classic example of what not to do when reporting scientific results. They must have known the media would pick up on this and relate only the headline and not the subtleties. - Mr. Gunn
The topic is now the homepage Buzz on scienceblogs.com - Bora Zivkovic
Mr. Gunn, I agree -- in fact you don't have to display the icon, just use the markup and the post will be aggregated. And, as we've talked about on twitter, it's in COinS (if not on our site, at least on the original blog post) - Dave Munger
At risk of dragging this back on topic - Mr. Gunn, you should leave a comment with your observations on the paper. Unlike this FF thread, comments on our site won't be 'acquired' and will thus form a permanent part of the record. :) - Peter Binfield from iPhone
Seriously, Peter, if someone came along and offered $50M, comments on your site would be acquired, as well, no? I'll leave a comment anyways, along the line of "the whole freaking thing is invalid because they let the heavy exercisers eat more!" - Mr. Gunn
Actually I seriously doubt it. Did you meet our Founders? I don't think they started PLoS to make a buck... What I do know is that Mission Driven Not For Profit organizations rarely sell up. - Peter Binfield
Once science communication has emancipated from the paper era, not even ONE journal may be necessary. So even if PLoS ONE were given $50M to shut down, there are lots of things you could do with that money to fulfill your mission of providing open access to research results. - Daniel Mietchen
@Mr Gunn: I wouldn't call the study flawed, just the ridiculous media interpretations. It is important to not restrict the food intake in a study like this because the point is to see whether according to recommendations, simply exercising will induce weight loss. And the results corroborate other research; if you just tell people to exercise they will compensate or overcompensate... more... - Colby
Pedro Matos
What do you think about publishing in PLoS One? Is it a good bet? Will the journal evolve favourably in the future in terms of IF/other metrics and public/peers perception of its quality?
I would hope that it would soon matter more what you publish than where you publish. - Björn Brembs from iPhone
+1 Björn. @Pedro, you might want to have a look at the PLoS ONE blog. I think you may find this post of interest:- http://everyone.plos.org/2009... - Graham Steel
I think it's the best journal in the world today and likely to be recognized as such over the next decade or so. The combination of review for rigor not subjective qualities and willingness to explore post-publication metrics put P.ONE head and shoulders above any other journal, imo. I personally would be happy never to publish in any other journal ever again, because I could simply ignore IF etc and feel secure that my work would be available to whoever wanted it and able to be judged for its own merits. - Bill Hooker
+100 Bill - Graham Steel
^2 Graham - Peter Binfield
/ 0.0 Peter - Bosco Ho
Wow, what an incredible comment thread. - Kevin Gamble from iPhone
Well that's very beautiful and I agree, but I'm talking about real life now. I know the hate/love relation scientists have with impact factors and I don't think PloS One will excel on that matter, maybe also because of the quantity of articles published. Let's compare for instance with Journal of Biological Chemistry that also publishes a lot, but is an already very established journal in its area (traditionally). For a scientist/phd student at the beginning of its career is always a dilemma... - Pedro Matos
Pedro, perhaps you can take a look at http://www.int-res.com/abstrac... and start arguing with your supervisors from there. Or from http://www.slideshare.net/brembs... . Or from http://www.mathunion.org/fileadm... . I also dwelled a bit on this subject at http://ways.org/en... and http://ways.org/en... . - Daniel Mietchen
I also recommend this excellent post: http://shirleywho.wordpress.com/2009... - Peter Binfield
Thanks. I was also trying to play devil's advocate to bring on more discussion ;) - Pedro Matos
I agree with the nice things said about PLoS ONE in this thread, but the widespread community perception remains that this is a journal for all the stuff that didn't get accepted by "real" journals. I think there is a genuine dilemma for young scientists thinking of publishing there; they may very well be better off (in a ruthlessly pragmatic career-driven sense) finding another venue for publication, at least until PLoS ONE achieves wider recognition. - Daniel MacArthur
Why don't we stop peer-review already? Heck, if journals are such a great measure of quality, why don't we stop reading or writing papers altogether? We have these great professional editors who know exactly what we want: why don't we just give them a ring, tell them what we found out and then they can write a short news-and-views article about our work. That's the only thing anybody... more... - Björn Brembs
Bora Zivkovic
Fwd: I see, @p_binfield is now famous - featured in the PhDcomics strip: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics... Viva la #openaccess #PLoS (via http://friendfeed.com/coturni...)
You know you've made it when you appear in a PhDcomics strip. Although I'm not sure whether it's fame or infamy... - Bill Hooker
"Infamy infamy, they've all got it infamy" - Peter Binfield
*groan* - Bill Hooker
Euan
Lies, damned lies and download counts - http://blogs.nature.com/wp...
All good points. - Neil Saunders
Yes, all good points - and they're still good points when you replace 'downloads' by 'citations'. Which captures the essence of all metrics: some things that count, cannot be counted. There are no 'good' metrics. There are only bad metrics and less bad metrics. Because I fear we will not be able to continue without any metrics, we should at least have as many as possible and make them as least bad as we can, so that we at least appear to try to do the multivariate traits of scientific papers some justice. - Björn Brembs
Lies, damned lies and bibliometrics :-) - Björn Brembs
@Bjorn absolutely... though to be fair at least we've got established systems for properly counting citations! Download counts are far easier to mess up (or abuse). I agree with you though, we need as many metrics as possible. I wonder if converting them to a single CV friendly score per paper is a necessary step or if you could skip straight to the occasionally mooted personal impact factor. - Euan
there's a problem, too, with counting pdf downloads separately or not from html views. some journals double count. Still one set of eyes looking at an article, they just landed on the html before opening the pdf. - Christina Pikas
@Euan: Good point. However, systems differ, e.g. between Google Scholar, Scopus and ISI. My own collection of citations is assembled by hand from ISI, Scopus and G.Scholar, you wouldn't find it anywhere else but on my site: http://bjoern.brembs.net/citatio... Which citations do you count? Papers (which ones: reviews, original research, working papers, preprints, indexed where)?... more... - Björn Brembs
@Christina: PLoS currently tracks PDF/XML/HTML downloads separately, at least internally. - Björn Brembs
@Bjorn: Yup - there's yet another different citation count in CrossRef too (which isn't public). I don't think citation counts are particularly good taken in isolation either but you can see why they've gotten us this far. To paraphrase Winston Churchill: article citation counts are the worst system of article metrics except for all of the others that have been tried. - Euan
I left a comment on Euan's blog last night, but it may not have made it past the CAPTCHA (at least it never appeared) - so here it is for what its worth: All good points Euan, and I am very pleased to see this debate start up. The transparent provision of usage data at the article level is uncharted waters for almost all publishers (exceptions are the Journal of Vision and the Frontiers... more... - Peter Binfield
@Euan - on the topic of CrossRef citations - we will be displaying that data as well in the next couple of weeks (i.e. we will display citations measured by CrossRef; PubMedCentral; and Scopus) - Peter Binfield
@Bjorn - we do indeed track downloads at the HTML, PDF and XML level and we will be displaying the raw data for all 3 download types - Peter Binfield
Peter - sorry about that, your comment never made it through our poorly tuned junk filter (which makes me wonder how many other valid comments have silently gone missing on Moveable Type 3 blogs). The link to the article level metrics post seemed to be causing the problem, I've removed it and resubmitted the comment from the text you pasted here, hope that's OK. - Euan
No problem Euan - assumed it was something like that. - Peter Binfield
In reply to your comment, though: I'm actually in favour of exposing download stats - and as many other different article level metrics as possible. As you say, a wider range of metrics make the data more valuable and the system harder to game. That's beside the point though - I was asking if putting download stats without the proper context (and you'd need a lot of context) on your CV was a good idea. I don't think it is. Yes the existing citation counts system sucks - imho download stats suck harder. - Euan
Downloads are just another component of a metric aren't they. That's the challenge with any system, and my guess is it will take a few years to come up with an appropriate metric, but you guys, i.e. the publishers, should be working together on this and my hope is that there's enough common interest to do so. - Deepak Singh
Speaking of PLoS ONE and metrics: Bollen et al. A principal component analysis of 39 scientific impact measures. PLoS ONE (2009) vol. 4 (6) http://dx.doi.org/10... - 'Mummi' Thorisson
Deepak: yeah. I don't think anybody should rely on publishers coming up the combined metric though. Why give us any more power than we already have? :) Anybody can collect the number of times a paper has been blogged, tweeted, bookmarked etc. I'd like to see more Eigenfactor type endeavours from startups and academia. How about a Rap Leaf equivalent for scientists? - Euan
the accuracy of a metric depends on the underlying information being shared to allow replication and a deeper understanding - Mike Chelen
Shirley Wu
Overheard regarding papers published in PLoS ONE - "it was rejected somewhere else", "The bar is 'not crackpot'", "people publish in CNS because that's where the attention is, I don't know anyone who reads PLoS ONE", "The reputation of the journal is a good way to filter out noise". Is there truth to these claims? Discuss.
Almost all papers, in all journals, have been rejected from somewhere else. Our bar is "is it science, is it conducted properly, is it reported properly, and do the conclusions follow the data etc" - the bar is not "is it sexy, or impactful, or a major advance". At the same time, we are not CNS - as we are not selective. CNS combined publish just 5,000 articles a year between them but... more... - Peter Binfield
Peter, I certainly don't disagree with what you're saying and think PLoS ONE is valuable and innovative. But I was wondering if these negative judgments are pervasive (FF/twitter is a bit of an echo chamber and the real world can be a shock sometimes) and if so how to change them. There are those who argue that CNS has high precision even if they miss some good papers and so it's more... more... - Shirley Wu
The problem with echo chambers is that the Internet echoes forever; and forever is a long time. We just need to push out as much positive info as possible to try to combat any negative comments which may have been made rashly, or in error, but which get re-referenced for eternity. Our article-level metrics program will presumably show people whether any given paper in PLoS ONE is 'high'... more... - Peter Binfield
There's this thing known as FUD. Happens when someone sees their status eroding. The whole PLoS articles are not as good is just that, FUD - Deepak Singh
Indeed, it may be fear, uncertainty, doubt. It may also be lack of information and hard data. We are going to fix the latter. Certainly, people are voting with their feet - we have 37,000 published authors in under 3 years, and people are publishing with us in ever increasing numbers (http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.com/2009... ) - Peter Binfield
"it was rejected somewhere else" - perhaps. This is hard to tease out, but I have a feeling that most of the manuscripts that come to PLoS ONE have never been submitted elsewhere - Bora Zivkovic
"The bar is 'not crackpot' - good bar, IMHO. Why is any other bar necessary? Think. Really. - Bora Zivkovic
"people publish in CNS because that's where the attention is, I don't know anyone who reads PLoS ONE" - who still reads journals? Srsly? Don't people search online for papers they are interested in? Do physicists read biology papers when their copy of Nature arrives? No, they read Nature for "news and views". - Bora Zivkovic
"The reputation of the journal is a good way to filter out noise" - perhaps a century ago when every scientist could read every scientific paper and understand it, and every scientist was a 'Victorian scholar' who felt the need to keep up with ALL of science. Today, you read papers in your narrow field - you find them online. News from other sciences you can find in pop-sci magazines, on blogs, etc. - Bora Zivkovic
@Bora, I think there are still a fair number of people who don't search for papers necessarily, but browse TOCs, and so only browse the journals they're familiar with. During the discussion, someone asked, baffled, "but there are already so many papers [without PLoS ONE publishing so many more], how would people find ones of interest to them??" - Shirley Wu
A related discussion - based on a correspondence in Nature by a proponent of the views Shirley cites - is at http://ff.im/4GWlM . - Daniel Mietchen
@Shirley - although ToCs are certainly an important discovery tool, any publisher will tell you that the vast majority of their usage comes in from Google (who then read an article, and leave again to run another search) - Peter Binfield
@Peter, that would make sense, but I'm wondering if that necessarily translates into Google being the majority of people's preferred method for finding papers. At least the impression I got from folks in my lab was "so many papers, so little time" and so they're skeptical of anything that adds to the glut of papers without clearly adding value. They might agree on the principle that... more... - Shirley Wu
They also think, "if [a peer reviewer] didn't make a value judgment on whether this paper is significant, why should I waste time reading it?" - Shirley Wu
"I'm wondering if that necessarily translates into Google being the majority of people's preferred method for finding papers" - Good point. I guess you would want to measure time spent on page by people who come via the 2 (or more) routes to see how targeted their interest was - Peter Binfield
@Shirley - Then they are admitting that they would prefer one (or perhaps 2 or 3) other people to decide what is important for them, and so decide on their behalf what they should be reading. Doesnt sound like a very informed way to filter imho... - Peter Binfield
@Peter, more that a million people access papers through google 25% of the time will mean that publishers see google as a huge source of traffic, but doesn't mean that people think of google as their preferred method to find _NEW_ papers. - Shirley Wu
@Peter, well, it's using expert opinion. We all use it to some extent in areas we're not familiar with. If people aren't that internet savvy or aren't that organized, they depend on other people or name-brand journals to bring things to their attention. Also, commenting on papers hasn't really taken off yet - just a matter of time, probably - but it just means that the post-peer review process hasn't really proven its value yet. - Shirley Wu
"but it just means that the post-peer review process hasn't really proven its value yet." - indeed, and we DONT view our efforts as post-pub peer review. We view it as a new way to do post-pub evaluation / filtering / discovery. - Peter Binfield
Oh, the other thing that someone mentioned was "comments are valuable" - meaning "why would I give away my intellectual capital?" People are willing to share their comments with their labs or close colleagues, but not to the public or to the general scientific community. Is this just another mindset we combat with positivity and action? How to combat the vicious cycle of "no comments, so no value", "no value, so i won't comment"? - Shirley Wu
"Is this just another mindset we combat with positivity and action?" - I would say we combat it by showing them the power of being open about these things. For example, social bookmarking only works when everyone shares their bookmarks - in this example there is a clear benefit to both contribute and use. If people realised that by leaving comments they would be advancing science;... more... - Peter Binfield
@Daniel, ah yes, I remember that thread now. Unfortunately I think many scientists are similar in mindset to the letter writer. They don't know about or understand new ways of receiving content, which might seem strange to those of us here, but there are many more people out there than are in here. - Shirley Wu
Also, you could use the same argument about peer review: "My time and thoughts are valuable, why should I do peer review". Apparently academia feel that the quid pro quo works in that situation at least (and that is done anonymously!) - Peter Binfield
@Peter, true, though I think some of that is tied to the reputation of the journal again - being a reviewer for Nature > reviewer for PLoS ONE (in their eyes), editors know them, they can talk about it and gain status. They get tangible and subtle career boosts. Whereas commenting on papers online and publishing in PLoS ONE doesn't get someone tenure (yet). "It would be very brave and... more... - Shirley Wu
Peter - given the problems that journals have finding suitable reviewers, I would hesitate a bit calling that a working system. - Daniel Mietchen
@Daniel :) - Peter Binfield
Another link that may be useful reposting here: Pubfeed at http://pubfeed.cs.toronto.edu/ basically allows you to treat the whole web of scholarly articles like a TOC alert (just a bit more customizable) and pipe that into your preferred feed reader. - Daniel Mietchen
@Shirley - please dont forget that there are 25,000 journals in the world and millions of papers published per year. CNS is just 3 titles, and if you lump together all similar titles (highly exclusive, professional editors, well known brands, conferring 'bragging rights' on anyone who works with them) then you are still talking about just a handful of the titles, with a small percentage of the content. We need a system that works for everyone, not just a small sub-set - Peter Binfield
@Peter, oh, I'm well aware, just parlaying bits of an impromptu debate I had earlier today with people who don't see the value of venues like PLoS ONE. These are all arguments they make, and while I don't agree with them, it is tough to convince people - Shirley Wu
You could try asking them exactly how many downloads their last paper in a 'high impact' journal got... - Peter Binfield
Fair enough, but you know, I really don't think they think about that. They think "what will be in my CV?" and they think any journal that is somewhat competitive [includes other PLoS journals, BMC journals, etc] looks better than one that accepts anything that's methodologically sound. Again, not my view, but perhaps one that is held by many. Do people list # of downloads on their CV for publications? - Shirley Wu
They dont, because they dont have the data. However, people do list if their paper was rated by F1000; or if BMC designated it a 'highly accessed' article. So I think they will start to say "this paper was downloaded 5000 times in the first 3 months which put it in the top x% of all PLoS ONE articles, the top y% of all PLoS articles, and the top z% of ALL articles" (when the rest of the world starts quoting this data) - Peter Binfield
Ironic isn't it; it's not a battle with the publishers, but with other scientists! I overheard a conversation yesterday concerning choice of bioinformatics journals. It centered entirely around impact factors and at one stage someone said "I think BMC Bioinformatics is online *only*" - as though that were a bad thing. - Neil Saunders
And it's clear that anyone who mentions "filtering noise" simply is not using the web effectively. Presumably their web use is limited to search, after which they print PDFs and go away. Concepts that seem simple to us - RSS, feed readers - are unknown to them. - Neil Saunders
I think of it as trying to set up a social experiment. If I'm right and a more cooperative model can produce better science than the current hypercompetitive structure, then over the next decade or so, facility with new methods and metrics that center on Open practices will provide a competitive edge for some researchers, and unwillingness to change will put others at a disadvantage. We... more... - Bill Hooker
Good thoughts Bill. It's not enough to say "this way is better" just because we believe it to be. We have to demonstrate that it's better - or find out that it isn't. - Neil Saunders
And isn't that the scientific way? - Deepak Singh from IM
"I think there are still a fair number of people who don't search for papers necessarily, but browse TOCs" Could it be that those are the people publishing in CNS and miss the most important papers for their work? http://bjoern.brembs.net/comment... It's only one example, as anecdotal as it gets, but it shows two things: 1. CNS 'quality' is merely correlational and highly noisy.... more... - Björn Brembs
My environment is rather positive about PLoS ONE. We all know about the difference between relevance and quality. While many PLoS ONE papers might not be of widespread interest, the review process is of comparable quality or better to smaller conferences and e.g. high volume BMC journals. Other journals have severe issues with reviewer quality these days, and it seems to become worse. - Roland Krause
I'm still wondering about the degree of scalability of post-publication (significance) peer review systems. Is it really realistic to think that once (all) journals go OA and implement such a system that the entire scientific community will benefit? Assuming that it's "fair" for all journals to get equal amount of attention from "scholarly feedback communities", how can we encourage... more... - Wobbler
I agree with Bill Hooker's statement just above. Those who echo Shirley's original quote will be at a disadvantage, which means better odds for the Shirley's of the research world. - Jason Hoyt
I often say something along the lines of what Bill said. The environment is changing. To succeed in the new environment, one has to change not just one's publishing habits, but also rethink how to do research and how to write it. Thus, people who think about it early on will be able to gain advantage over people who are still stuck in the old ways of doing things. As the new environment... more... - Bora Zivkovic
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