Patricia F. Anderson › Likes

Is the journal "gratis" or "libre" open access? Latter might not restrict third parties from repackaging and selling access to the articles. - Eric Jain

Bruno, there is *nothing* wrong with selling Open Access papers. Open Access is not about free beer, it is about the right to redistribute. You are mixing up concepts. - Egon Willighagen

This is a bit rude on Amazon's part given that they don't link back to the free version. They're not adding any value here apart from discoverability and the prices is clearly a rip-off but that's what markets are about. The flip side of this is that what the licence is supposed to enable is precisely that someone might collect, annotate, improve, aggregate a set of papers together and... more... - Cameron Neylon

Who gets the money? Is it Amazon, or "Gale, a part of Cengage Learning"? I also notice it says "Excerpt. (c) Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved." I am not sure whether or not this is technically correct, but it does seem misleading. - Ruchira S. Datta

Given the involvement of "Gale, a part of Cengage Learning", there's no guarantee that Amazon even knows anything about this particularly (e.g., no human and possibly even no computer database at Amazon may have seen the link to the original article). - Ruchira S. Datta

I think Mary Ann Liebert online may do the same sort of thing, but I've never been quite sure. - Ruchira S. Datta

@Ruchira, the people doing the republishing are within their rights to reserve all the rights they have (which is probably none - unless they're claiming re-pagination or layout rights, I'm not going to pay to have a look). But yes Amazon may have no clue. WHoever it is is taking the mickey tho but they're not doing anything legally wrong. Amazon will certainly get some of the money though. - Cameron Neylon

Might well be legal, see their link http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/static.... As publication of US gov, they are copyright-free, but I don't know whether that allows commercial re-use. I have encountered a type of fraud (apparently mainly in Africa) where someone would buy paper copies of medical journals at low cost by associating themselves with a third-world university, then reselling them at vastly increased prices in places where they do not have access to e.g. mail or internet. - Nicolas Fanget

That kind of "access laundering" was also done by the British Library, don't know if they still do. See https://arl.org/lists... - Matt Hodgkinson

If the work is in the public domain then there are no copyright restrictions to prevent distribution or resale. - Mike Chelen

Cameron, that's why I said it may be technically correct, but if I see "Reprinted by permission" my natural assumption would be they went and got permission. It would not be my first thought that they have permission because everyone has permission. And "All rights reserved." certainly makes it sound like I don't have permission until I go and get it myself like they did. That's why I think it's misleading. - Ruchira S. Datta

If I see, say, a Dover book, or one of those Barnes & Noble classics, that's a totally different thing. They don't misrepresent that they are publishing what's in the public domain, and their copyright notices don't say "Reprinted with permission." - Ruchira S. Datta

liking for the discussion - not the initial post. My guess, like others mentioned, is that amazon isn't aware of the copyright owner's rights. The author should also check their OA agreement to make sure they know what rights they have retained. - Elizabeth Brown

Ruchira, absolutely its misleading but there's no violation of copyright here. They've attributed as required by the licence to both authors and journal (now if the journal required attribution via a link to the source that might be a bit different but I couldn't find anything that specific) - Cameron Neylon

This popped up in the Digital Public Library of America mailing list, so I came here to take a look. I can't seem to ferret out a relationship between the Environmental Health Perspectives journal and Gale. The journal information page () says "Print issues are available by paid subscription" so I wonder if that is the connection to a formal publisher. - Peter Murray

I posted a comment on the Amazon page directing people to this discussion and the original article. Perhaps we should make a habit of doing this when we find this sort of incident? - Patricia F. Anderson

I blogged about this here: http://etechlib.wordpress.com/2011... - Patricia F. Anderson

Other than the copyright statement, do we know for sure this is a Gale product on Amazon? I couldn't find a "publisher" field or anything similar in the Amazon metadata. - Peter Murray

Damn, FriendFeed did not send me notifications and I missed the whole discussion! Just saw it now after my friend (the author) sent me Patricia's post. First, I did not say it was *wrong*, I just stated it was *interesting* to open up the discussion. When the author posted about this on twitter/buzz most comments (mainly scientists) were in the lines of "can they do this?", "isn't that... more... - Bruno C. Vellutini

Add Akiva for Groves, TX. - Rochelle

For some reason, I thought this was about where we are now. I was born in Shelbyville, KY . . . not Pottstown, PA. Sorry about that. - Friar Will (:^)

Done, Will. - MoTO Bott

wasn't there a public map that we could edit? - chrisofspades

Here Chris: http://maps.google.com/maps... - MoTO Bott

@figshare Right now the emphasis on "would otherwise go unpublished" makes me hesitate. mybe change to "might otherwise go unpublished"? And add another of your cool graphics about figures also being available before publication, and in an easy to re-find location, to demonstrate the multiple use cases? - Heather Piwowar

Would the probably want to add a "**Check with your intended journal that figure preprint publication is permitted before article submission" or something - Heather Piwowar

NICE. - Graham Steel

Good questions Heather, I'll be interested to hear what the figshare folks think. - Bill Hooker

Heather, thank you so much. I have been focussed so much on getting the server set up right that I havent updated these things. Definitely figure=nanopublication. I will get it changed to "might otherwise go unpublished too". I was also looking to contact many of the big name journals to see what their view on this would be with regard to preprint publication. I'm hoping to have the... more... - science3point0

Cool! afaik for figure preprints, based on investigations with respect to Open Notebook Science, Nature is fine with prior publication on the web, BMC and PLoS no prob, Science may not be, Medical journals almost for sure are not fine with it. RoMEO info may apply http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeoin..., though not sure it is geared for whether preprint archiving can happen PRIOR to submission. Here;s a bit of info I gathered in 2007 http://bit.ly/fi7A44. Active ONS practitioners no doubt know more.... - Heather Piwowar

fwiw it may be a good thing you went with handles rather than dois in this regard, since DOIs are not to be used for things (well, articles anyway) that are going to be "published" in the future (at which point they may get their own DOIs, as figures do at PLoS). See Nature Precedings distinction: http://precedings.nature.com/site... - Heather Piwowar

An obvious calculated, well researched and insightful move on our behalf :) - science3point0

Interesting thread, and it would be great if this takes off as a nanopublication scheme. Can I just comment/ask if this is an issue with data (datacite) v article (crossref) DOIs, as I thought efforts were being made trying to draw a distinction between to two? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would have assumed that publishers shouldn't have problems with "raw data" (hopefully... more... - Scott Edmunds

Scott, I don't think the DOI vs handle issue applies to raw data, since afaik journals don't usually give supplementary information DOIs. Some do sometimes give figures dois though, as in http://dx.doi.org/10... :) - Heather Piwowar

Some non-OA publishers do have problems with it and some don't. Nature, for example, allows preprints (=text AND figures) to be posted in Nature Precedings prior to publication, so I'm guessing they don't have a problem with it. Science, Cell, and medical journals do consider posting on the web "prior publication" last I heard and so don't allow it before submission. - Heather Piwowar

I would check with Nature rather than assume. They might be fine with something in Precedings but not OK with anyone else's silo. They are all about The Brand, after all. - Bill Hooker

Thanks for your advice. We are hoping to make a lot of our institutional data available in this way (as well as things such as issuing DOIs to supplementary data attached to our upcoming journal), and it sounds like raw data should be fine, but it may be a little more of a grey area if it's processed into figures. To be safe it sounds like a good idea for us to clarify these things a bit more with some of the relevant (Brand) journals. - Scott Edmunds

On the issue of prior publication: for an analogous situation, some publishers consider F1000 Posters to be prior publication. - Matt Hodgkinson

At F1000 Posters, I have spent a lot of time talking with the various journals and publishers for their response to the prior publication question and we have listed their responses at http://f1000posters.com/journal.... As was suggested earlier in this feed, we recommend potential depositors to check the list first prior to deposition - Rebecca :awrence

This is a very helpful list, thanks Rebecca. - Heather Piwowar

I thought 300:1 was rather high but 4:1 seems rather low to me...I would have thought around10-20:1 would be the right number. - Cameron Neylon

I have been guessing 10:1 for a while in the US, based on some figures I saw (sorry, can't think where) that showed 20,000 new postdocs produced each year but only 2,000 tt jobs coming onto the market. Three hundred seems high even for applicants per position (unless at MIT/similar). - Bill Hooker

Bill, 200-300 (or higher) applicants per position is often quoted in many places, see my comments in that thread: http://friendfeed.com/brembs... Given it's not limited to these few top universities, it either tells a bit about science jobs market, or shows how many institutions are as good as MIT ;). - Pawel Szczesny

The thing about US "ivy league" schools is that they are not about education (though you can probably get a decent education at some of them) -- they are there as a filter, and their primary product is imprimatur. You may learn the same info and skills at Buttlick College, Arizona, but the job is going to go to the guy with the Harvard degree every time. In the US, at least. This is how the economic elite got the upper hand in the first place, and how they mean to keep it. - Bill Hooker

That's a bit tangential -- my point is that I would expect more applicants to a high-prestige school because of prestige, not necessarily because of real quality. Though there is a circular effect, whereby it might actually be better to be on staff at a prestige school, since they use their prestige to attact good teachers and researchers -- i.e. more fun colleagues. - Bill Hooker

The 300 figure, at least for me personally, is a rough average over the US positions I applied for and where I was told the number. In Germany, there are ~24,000 professors and every year ~25,000 PhD's graduate (all subjects). This means, if no. of positions is constant and assuming an average career of a professor of 30 years, one out of 30 PhDs in Germany has a shot at a professorship. However, the number of applicants for each professorship in our field is ~60... - Björn Brembs from iPhone

@Bill... Cambridge UK PhD research is not that much different from good NL universities... however, the funding is much higher, allowing Cambridge to buy more advanced equipment... moreover, students are more prestigious, making them ask more and better questions, which makes teachers better... - Egon Willighagen

This hits me right where it hurts! All I do is talk about these ideas, never put them into practice. Crotty, you bastard, I'll get you for this. :-) - Bill Hooker

Well the OS glass will never be full - it isn't even half-full but there is water - lets keep adding more drops as opportunities arise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Jean-Claude Bradley

I am conflicted. After all I did the complaining, but not sure I agree with everything in there :) - Deepak Singh

I am very curious on how "doing" is defined - Deepak Singh

And I'm looking at all the cool stuff from Galaxy, and all kinds of collaborative apps that may not quite be public - Deepak Singh

If "doing" means randomly selecting and reading scientific articles then this is easily done. If doing means listening to my fellow friends and scientists in various networks for allowing me to rank scientific articles, then this is better. In this case "doing" requires communication, one form is talking, and the major goal is increasing knowledge by reducing information overload. BTW,... more... - joergkurtwegner

"Tools for Work: Every journal is looking for a leg up on the competition, looking for offerings that make them more attractive than other journals. Instead of offering yet another suite of communication tools likely to be ignored, we need to instead focus on the priorities and needs of our readers. Can we create new resources that support communities or that aggregate information in... more... - Daniel Mietchen

Neil - if the question is "are Web2.0 tools good enough to allow people to do Open Science" then the answer is yes - at least for applications like sharing solubility data. It might not work as well for applications with massive amounts of data - but we have to evaluate that on a case by case basis by at least trying with existing tools first. My concern is that people who might be... more... - Jean-Claude Bradley

JC, that's where I disagree. If there's one area where modern web technologies do very well it's handling massive amounts of data. It's just that no one is building the tools or (based on what I've seen), the best ones are either commercial or internally focussed. I am talking about data managements, etc. Why is there no Flightcaster for genomic data or platforms like Twilio? - Deepak Singh

I'm not so sure, Deepak. If nothing else, transferring massive data sets is a blocker in many cases. Or do you mean web based interfaces/applications to massive datasets? - Rajarshi Guha

Deepak - with the docking work that Rajarshi did for our molecules the massive (relative to what I'm used to in organic chem) amount of data was hard to share on free hosted platforms. I was very hopeful about Google Research Data Service - we got some early accounts at SciFoo and Rajarshi did upload a large number of conformations from our virtual library. But that didn't pan out. We... more... - Jean-Claude Bradley

@JC, your last point is what makes me think that web tech is not necessarily a panacea for large datasets. The situations you describe are basically all ways to avoid transferring large datasets. Furthermore, they lead to some extent of "implicit" vendor lock-in. Not 'explicit', since you can pull the data down - but if it's so massive would you really want to pull it down? And of course there's the issue that code then needs to run on the storage system. - Rajarshi Guha

Rajarshi, I mean the latter. You should not be sending data sets to multiple locations, but shared dataspaces accessible by multiple people spinning up ad hoc compute resources or using APIs/services to pull in required data is the way to go (and being done today across any number of fields) - Deepak Singh

JC, Gmail isn't meant to front end compute. The design point for those storage systems is write few, read occasionally, so that's not surprising per se. - Deepak Singh

Jean-Claude makes a good point here: "IP and collaborator issues were." That is why people like John Wilbanks, Heather Joseph (both of whom are speaking at Science Commons Symposium – Pacific Northwest http://sciencecommons.org/events...) and Victoria Stodden (see her papers here http://www.stanford.edu/~vcs...) are so important. You guys all need to talk more to the Open... more... - Hope Leman

Reading Jean-Claude's comments 5 posts up: Replace "Google" or "Amazon" with The Library sounds like the future to me. Libraries have the advantage of sharing the same mission as the open researcher (i.e., eliminates need to make it profitable for Amazon). Disadvantage is they don't kick as much ass yet (as far as I know). Have libraries across institutions begun collaborating on this... more... - Steve Koch

Steve, well we made a small step forward with our library this weekend by having them host our notebook archive on DSpace. There is a chance they will agree to do more sophisticated hosting in the future- we'll see. - Jean-Claude Bradley

Great to hear, Jean-Claude. Maybe we're about a year behind you (no data hosting till at least the fall), but hopefully can catch up some day. - Steve Koch

Steve, as to your last point. Libraries cannot and will likely never be able to manage infrastructure at scale and really shouldn't even try. They should (and are) leveraging 3rd party infrastructures today. It's up to them to figure out the models around it. (example: http://duraspace.org/duraclo...) - Deepak Singh

Steve I would be curious to know if it is possible to export your whole notebook from OWW or is that code that needs to be written? - Jean-Claude Bradley

That code seems not to exist yet - I had posed Steve the same question by email, and here is what he replied yesterday: " OWW does provide data dumps. It is described here, http://openwetware.org/wiki... and supposedly the most recent data dump is here: http://openwetware.org/dumps/ Presumably you could write a script that would download the data dump daily to back... more... - Daniel Mietchen

thanks Daniel - it would be nice if you could export your pages and data only - Jean-Claude Bradley

Bill (developer at OWW) could probably write these scripts relatively easily (and perhaps already has). I've been unable to reach him lately, though. - Steve Koch

Steve if you end up using lots of Google Spreadsheets to store data Andy has written some nifty code to make archiving them with the notebook fairly painless. - Jean-Claude Bradley

Thanks Jean-Claude -- I've been noticing that. Anthony uses google docs almost every day, so I've been thinking about it. There's talk of "OWW 2.0" (with that kind of thing integrated), so I've been holding off a bit. - Steve Koch

you could also give an overview of where to look for shared/public data sites. - Elizabeth Brown

sort of related to bill and elizabeth, but making it clear which funders do require data as part of the deliverables, as a means to identify funding sources as well as potential data sources. (and partnerships across disciplines.) - Georgie Bestie

Data licenses and the public domain, how to cite data sets, data hacks & tools - Mr. Gunn from YouFeed

I would be mainly interested in data citation, and how our tools (reference managers, etc.) handle them or need improvements. - Martin Fenner

I think how to/why to. Some big success stories, some stories of failure, some stories of problems, and stories of benefits. Also as others have said, the funder perspective, particularly from e.g. NSF - Cameron Neylon

Thanks all for the feedback for the Future of Data workshop, we have dates and updated schedule here: http://www.carlboettiger.info/archive... Also very glad to have Trisha from UC3/UC digital libraries with us! - Carl Boettiger

Looks awesome, Carl! You are kicking serious ass - Steve Koch

I want to go to this. - Georgie Bestie

me too - are there plans to archive or stream the content? - Elizabeth Brown

Yes, the #UCDavis Data Sharing Workshop (March 2-4th) will be video archived! We've had several requests for archives from our own department too! Just spoke with Prof Jim Carey on Friday about video-archiving the entire workshop, I think we should be able to make all materials and recording Internet archived, though not streamed. Jim has great video-archiving experience for seminars,... more... - Carl Boettiger

that's a great idea, Carl, since this will reach a lot more scientists and others after the event. - Elizabeth Brown