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Peter Svensk › Likes
When FriendFeed Creates a Mob - http://www.fourlittlebees.net/shakesp...
Varun Mahajan, Dereck, Dean Thompson and 75 other people liked this
this place has become the new / old digg
- linkman77
I would disagree that re: about Digg. The comments I find on FF rarely degrade into the crass name calling I run into on Digg. As for group think: sadly, it's a constant in humanity. Your going to find it everywhere, and FF is no exception.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I can't process the group think mentality. I'm not sure if it's just that I'm too eccentric or that I can't stand people telling me what to do. When I first read the post, I was indignant as well. But I also know that my knee-jerk reaction is often wrong. I looked at the MOMA site. I thought about it. I read all the buried comments on Digg. I can't form an opinion until I have more facts. But I know that there is this insane witch hunt here, and I don't like it one bit.
- Cyndy
@Cyndy: Groupthink is a fascinating subject, because just about everyone responds exactly as you do. It's the anathema of what we consider an independent and intelligent mind. However, it's also the basis of religion and community/social structure, not to mention the entire advertising industry.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I admit it: I got caught up in it and dugg the story when it was first submitted. I realized how insane this was when people found the guy's Facebook profile and implored everyone to harass him there, and when people charted the vacation schedules of the guy's bosses. The SFMOMA one is notable in that its groupthink now transcends Friendfeed, but have you seen some of the utter crap that becomes popular on FriendFeed nowadays? It's becoming much harder to distinguish it from Digg or Reddit.
- Mark Trapp
Wisdom of the crowds :-)
- Denis
It's all about who you follow. More importantly, who you don't
- Geoff Schultz
Mark- I likey'd it as well and enjoy Thomas' work. I respect Cyndy and have gotten to know her a little. She's not only a good author but a lot more. There's basically two takeaways here. 1... The way things are right now, people will endorse stuff on social networks if their best friend does. 2... I didn't know half this stuff til I read this thread. Think some are getting way too wrapped up in SM and maybe need to take a few days off. The sad part is that (re 1) people vote in elections that way too.
- Charlie Anzman
I think we all need to realize that this type of mob mentality is a symptom of a homogenous group. The more alike everyone is, the more likely the mob will kick in. Digg is, despite it's size, a fairly homogenous group of traffic seekers. When FF gets a larger user base, you'll see more 'mobs' but each one will be a smaller portion of the whole and less likely to affect the remainder of the group.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Very engaging entry, Cyndy. It is people like you that are willing to approach the other less popular angle that help us to avoid group think.
- Geoff Schultz
I wasn't following this but it doesn't shock me. I still appreciate Cyndy's take on it though. My take: Internet people tend to be a little hypocritical when it comes to "fairness". Generally, it is "fair" if it doesn't hurt them.
- David Muir
Nice, mature post.
- Mohamed J
Great post. Very provocative. I just posted a comment at your blog (Friendfeed comments are too short).
- Nathan Rein
The other part of this is that Friendfeed continues to be an equalizer, unlike any other platform that I'm aware of, which is exciting and important
- Charlie Anzman
Charlie, I think the great equalizer aspect of Friendfeed is its value, too. I almost think in order for FriendFeed to not become a Reddit or Digg clone with a few insignificant other features, it's got to drop the popularity metric of "Likes." It was a cool idea, but I think it's become a poor-man's "Digg it!" Then again, that's armchair architecting; maybe FriendFeed has some killer feature they've been working on for the past 2 months to solve FriendFeed's ails.
- Mark Trapp
I think there's a significant difference, though, in the fact that nothing gets ranked in terms of number of likes. You can't "like up" a post the way you can on Digg. Yes, you can bump it to the top of the feed, but it will immediately be replaced by the next thing to get liked or commented, so the effect is less pronounced, I think.
- Nathan Rein
Cyndy, thanks for forcibly turning my head so that I consider the other side of this campaign. I agree that the original article, much less the community response, has gone too far.
- Phil G
That's not true, nathan. Likes have a significant effect, much more so than comments, on what stories reach the top of the list on the best-of pages. They also have a big effect on the rankings on your personal statistics pages.
- Mark Trapp
Also, even though the effect may be eventually diluted, the mob here is just a better class of mob overall. :-)
- David Muir
hmm ... Okay, I take it back. I never use either of those Friendfeed features. Never mind.
- Nathan Rein
Museums are not public property, and they have the right to set whatever rules they see fit. Did they handle it incorrectly? Yes, probably, but usually if you are polite and ask them to review their rules that allow photography, everything can be resolved. From the fact that Hawk had to be escorted out, it doesn't sound like he responded well to the security guard's concerns.
- Jason Carreira
I "dugg" the story and would do it again. I had no idea people were staking the guy and do not agree with that. Now in what I have read about Thomas online in a relatively short time I will grant you, I do not believe that is the type of behavior he would encourage. My take away from his post is that he was pissed off, and was utilizing the platform available to him to share that...
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- R. Ferguson
Jason, did you read the original article that Thomas wrote detailing the event?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Yes there are 2 sides to every story and we only heard one, but I don't accept that it was group think - as much as it was a degree of trust based on what we feel we "know" about Thomas. I basically assumed that publicity if enough attn was gained via SM would cause SFMOMA to issue a response and their side of the story. It is a lot easier to encourage that with a click of a button vs calling their offices. Finally, how is everyone cheering and "liking" your post any less "groupthink?"
- R. Ferguson
I don't like the "mob rule" aspects one little bit. I like Thomas a lot from my experiences here, but although I am inclined to side with him, I only have his side. Sure, I did my own research and the guy is certainly suspect, what with sending goofy letters to the editor at Entertainment Weekly magazine, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guy should be lynched. Ruth, to your point, I think Cyndy's post doesn't make me question whether she's "abusing her power". Thomas', and the ensuing reaction...
- Robert Seidman
...do lead me to believe that power *can* be abused in this way. I'm not really sure whether it was or wasn't, but something about the way it went down didn't feel right to me.
- Robert Seidman
I agree, this whole thing has become insane, especially considering that only one side of the story has become known at this point. I didn't complain when it took over FriendFeed (highly annoying as that was), but finding his Facebok profile and calling for people to harass him/his bosses isn't something I like seeing. If I wanted to see the 4chan mentality, I would go to 4chan.
- Stellina
I think Cyndy is way off in her interpretation of this event. The harassment that Mark mentioned came from the digg community and it amounts to cyber-bullying not group-think. It is also a completely separate incident from what Thomas experienced at the SFMOMA. The backstory for Thomas' complaint is a growing public distrust of photographers not some bullshit about taking candy from babies. Its about companies and governments manipulating what gets into the news and public discourse.
- Rafael Robayna
Its also about privacy and people wanting more of it in a world where they get their picture taken discreetly by hundreds of cctv cameras, camera phones and other devices every day. Finally its about uneducated (can't tell the difference between a wide-angle and a telephoto lens) jackasses that are supposed to be protecting the interests of the the governments and private companies they work for and do so badly.
- Rafael Robayna
I too disagree about the comparison to Digg. This community is a LONG way from being anything close to Digg. I voted up the story because people who are entrusted with brand reputation (as this guy was) should be far smarter about how they deal with the press (and everyone, today, is the press) than they are. Personally the guy should be forced to take customer service classes to understand his role in dealing with the public. If I were running the museum he wouldn't have his job any longer after today.
- Robert Scoble
Let's turn this around. Would this guy keep his job if he kicked a journalist from the New York Times out of the museum? No he wouldn't. Thomas Hawk is just as powerful as any journalist from the New York Times (and has, even, been in the New York Times). The guy who kicked him out should be fired, or at minimum, retrained for how to deal with the new press (ie, everyone).
- Robert Scoble
And Cyndy, sometimes a mob is needed to make a point that this kind of stuff is totally unacceptable. This organization had a rule that photography was allowed. It should be enforced consistently with all patrons. Also, don't allow your employees to make it up on the spot and cause yourself and your brand embarrassment. Finally, if someone is a paying member of your organization they deserve better treatment than getting walked to the front door.
- Robert Scoble
Well written Cyndy, but I respectfully disagree. There is a bigger problem here than just this one incident. There have been at least three stories in recent weeks about photographers being harassed by police and other "public servant" types. We are starting to walk that fine line between freedom and oppression and it's time that the "mob" or community (wherever it may be) starts to speak up about this. When someone is following the rules or is in a public space, no one has the right to harass him.
-
Perhaps Thomas Hawk could have dealt with this in a more mature manner, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I often say things in anger that later I would have expressed differently. I realize we only have one side of the story, but Simon Blint and SF MOMA have not responded with their side of the story. Again, I'm more concerned about the deeper issue of individual rights and am glad that Thomas brought this to light.
-
JMS: there's no excuse for the other side of the story. Think about what would happen if the New York Times was walked to the front door. Both this guy and the PR director would be looking for jobs right now. It wouldn't even matter if the NYT photographer was rude, or difficult to deal with. That's just how things work. People with power don't get shown the front door in our society. The mob now has power and is demanding their heads and rightfully so.
- Robert Scoble
True Robert, As someone who works with the public every day, I completely agree. But I'm still interested in whatever excuse they might make. If only to hear how they are going to rectify the situation.
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i read the story. yes calling names such as Thomas did is perhaps over the board but behaviour exhibited by security guy was totally uncalled for as well. As said, dealing with new media is smth all those who have to deal at one or another point of time must learn. There was this year a similar scandal where a guy, whose mother was cheated, called on LiveJournal on mob to "bring down" the producer of the drug sold to his mother for big money. That company never recovered since.
- Hayk H.
Being apologetic and polite would not have cut it. Winning the mob, like in old times is what will bring about the change, although it might seem painful for some. Now this sec. guy will think again before behaving similarly.
- Hayk H.
Cyndy points out that 'the SF MOMA employee’s name is all over the tubes this weekend with no chance to defend himself'. While we have not heard the other side of the story yet, Simon and the SF MOMA have now had 2 days to respond and they have not. If they really cared about this issue it seems like they should have responded quickly to diffuse the viral spread of TH's side of the...
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- Jeff P. Henderson
I hear the objections to TH's use of the expletive and frankly they just aren't doing it for me. Yes, he's a CEO but so was Ted Turner and he wouldn't have hesitated to throw on a half-dozen more colorful qualifiers if this incident happened to him. I'm also hearing a lot about Blint's side of the story. If he has one he should have had it ready the day he chose to interpret SFMoMA's...
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- Christopher Harley
Cyndy, I appreciate your take on the controversy, and I also respectively disagree. Allegedly, TH was wronged by the MOMA, and he took to the interwebs to bitch about it. All his "mob" did was spread the word, like passing out leaflets at a concert asking passers-by to support anti-deforestation. I do agree that kind of in-your-face sensationalism can be annoying, but distribution methods don't have to please everyone.
- Pete Delucchi
At the point at which the employee's name was posted, it was over the line. If SFMOMA had done the reverse and called out Hawk as a belligerent nuisance, would the reaction be the same? Also, why is SFMOMA required to respond online? The personal info angle is what is completely inappropriate.
- Cyndy
I've been on Flickr for several years, and I've seen Thomas Hawk's crusades before. He truly enjoys tilting at windmills and bringing along as big a torchweilding mob as he can gather. There've been issues a lot smaller than this that he's spent weeks ranting in multi-page diatribes about. Now that he has this new forum for mob-gathering, expect to be rounded up on a semi-regular basis to rally to his defense after he's pushed someone into a confrontation.
- Jason Carreira
I think the real issue stems from trumped up "security" meant to keep us "safe." All sorts of power-tripping security guards and police have become accustomed to people immediately accepting restricted rights with the magic words "post 9/11." The reason it is such a hot-button issue is that most people have not pushed back against the Patriot act and all it (theoretically) allows law...
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- Richard pancakhaus Walker
It should be pointed out that Thomas Hawk is a pseudonym.
- Jason Carreira
Jason has a point, and until we were discussing it, I'd forgotten that was a pseudonym. Now I'm sure it was over the line. He won't use his real name yet had no trouble publicizing someone else's.
- Cyndy
Cyndy, I appreciate your post and criticism. A DSLR is most certainly a handheld camera. In the case regarding Jill Greenberg, yes, I feel it is abhorrent for someone to strip 30+ children naked and purposely use lollipops to get them *extremely* worked up and provoke them into anguish as an art project. Look at the photos. It's more than just a few tears. I doubt you'd subject your child to that sort of activity, I doubt most rational human beings would either, but that's a different story.
- Thomas Hawk
Cyndy... "If SFMOMA had done the reverse and called out Hawk as a belligerent nuisance" Lets be clear on something, SFMOMA had nothing to do with this. The employee in question acted outside the rules set by MOMA and took it apon himself to have a person ejected DESPITE other people in the gallery performing the same actions. And as "Director of Visitor Relations", you are not some type of low level employee, you are a person who is the public face of an organisation.
- Johnny Worthington
Jason... Crusades? How about issues that need dealing with. How about the right to attend a public space without hassel? How about the right to enter a property and while following the guidelines of that organisation not be ejected. As a person who got questioned more than 6 times on Saturday at our state fair here in Australia when I was taking photos of MY daughter. Grab me a torch
- Johnny Worthington
Cyndy, Jason, you are just figuring out that TH is a pseudonym? This is common knowledge and has been for about 7 years. What does that have to do with this issue or anything else for that matter?
- Jeff P. Henderson
We all must occasionally vent steam. Social networks enable our venting to more efficiently affect a large group of people, giving them the chance to also vent steam where previously they may not have had reason or opportunity to do so. I'll leave my pitchfork aside for now.
- Slappy Line
The new 'likey' is for the dialog.... which (while perhaps a little out of control) has been the most important part of the story. Food for thought for everyone. Mark T - Agree Friendfeed needs a few new features, especially for those of us that keep it open to a lot of people, but think about how many people right now are sitting back and considering their own stuff ... possible including my own Facebook rant earlier this week, which was very much off the top and could have been much better.
- Charlie Anzman
To those who would say behaviour like that stated in the article isn't group think I have to disagree. We voice our opinions here on popular entries because we think it will be the right thing to say. We want to affirm the sentiments of the post (for the most part). I have yet to see a social network that can combat against this phenomenon. When we reward opinions with popularity or...
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- Derick Valadao
How does your lobby look? - http://blogs.msdn.com/stevecl...
Al Stevens, Peter Svensk, imabonehead and 3 other people liked this
Video of Comcast's lobby. Pretty cool. Other lobbies I like? Reuters in London, who has a million dollar screen. New York Times' new lobby, who has hundreds of little computers showing quotes from the news. But I gotta visit Comcast to see this. Pretty cool. Anyone know of a cooler lobby?
- Robert Scoble
That's amazing
- J. McConnell
F|R Crib Sheet: 7 More Sites to Cut Your Startup Costs - http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r...
Andy Davies, Johan, Sidharth Dassani and 3 other people liked this
K2 disaster news came from on-location blogger - http://www.thestandard.com/news...
Sid, Peter Svensk, Brad and 7 other people liked this
In some ways, reminds me of: http://www.mattlogelin.com/ Normal blogging interrupted by a disaster. To have the prescience to keep blogging and capture the story is impressive.
- Mark Trapp
I think to an extent, Mark. If you followed the whole Everest thing back in 1996, everything was very skewed because the majority of the story came after the fact, when people had time to think about it. Krakauer's own account that first appeared as an article was still published 54 days after he summitted. A lot can end up glossed over, forgotten, or spun in that amount of time.
- Cyndy
Regular updates were provided at http://www.humanedgetech.com/expedit... and a good friend of mine was communicating with the outside world. He does expedition management at www.incipit.nl
- Marcel Ekkel
Thanks Marcel. I hadn't found the mirror site. I added it as an update, as well as the blog for Marco Confortola for those of you who can read Italian.
- Cyndy
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