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Phil Crissman › Comments
crazy_treehouse.jpg (JPEG Image, 490x730 pixels) - http://ffffound.com/image...
That is an awe inspiring tree house. I am just saying.
- Phil Crissman
philcrissman on ctrl-w closes tabs in most modern applications. What's the history of the this hotkey? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Is the article crappy? Heck yeah (if you could even call it an "article", not sure I would, and I wrote it). I scribbled it down two years ago when I was misguidedly trying to actually post something once per day. Not all my posts have that many ads, either, but at some point I added an extra large ad to any older posts that consistently got high search results. FWIW, for the 2000+ hits this blog post got last week, I netted $0.07. Yay adsense."
- Phil Crissman
Want me to refollow you after the great unfollowing? You better be listed on http://wefollow.com/twitter...
Mike Elliott, Gord McLeod, Nicholas Chase and 20 other people liked this
Yawn.
- Steve Council
Ha ha, your new twitter is not on the list. It is not in your friendfeed either.
- RetiredTeacherD
Robert, I like you but I'm not going to beg or audition for a follow. Either you like what I do or you don't. If you expect me to perform a trick for you, I'm a tree and you're a misplaced bark.
- Akiva Moskovitz
The problem with WeFollow is that it has different levels of specificity. So someone can be classified under Python, Ruby on Rails, Google, Development, or whatever which technically is Tech but those other tags are more helpful.
- Eric Florenzano
?! Don't let popularity burn you.
- Enrico Lamperti
If you want to read what I post, follow. If not, don't. One nice thing about not being internet famous is that those who do follow me are more likely to be genuine, folks I'd enjoy talking to in person.
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
What is the value of wefollow? The site doesn't explain what it does.
- Brent Logan
Robert I am @ wefollow, but I am under photography, socialmedia sigh is that okay?
- polou/indigo_bow
Good points on wefollow Eric Florenzano - wefollow also limits to 3 choices. I have far more interests than 3. I program, develop, build automated machines, but I do not want to be known as that. I like being a people person for people. I am a tech person for the machines.
- RetiredTeacherD
+10 Akiva
- Jason Huebel
My thoughts are very similar to Akiva's on the matter.
- Jon, the Beartato of FF
Robert: I thought you were only going to follow those followed by @notsecretscoble?
- Angus Burton
from iPhone
I will go to sleep tonight, confident that Robert will follow me, not because I'm on wefollow.com (I'm not), but because of my sheer awesomeness.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
I don't think Robert followed me on Twitter anyway, no huge loss. He finds me when necessary...LOL
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
And I will go to sleep tonight not really giving a shit that he's not following me. Actually, I don't know that he ever has. Never cared to check. O.o
- PENGUIN: MAJOR CAPS LOCK
1UP Akiva and Penguin. I simply do not care.
- Rochelle
You are a trip Scoble but I agree with your thinking here. I had also arrived at those same conclusions about followers & DM's. I remember first knowing you back in 96 or so when beta testing the Winnov Videum Cam Traveler. I found that thing in a box. Still a GREAT camera by the way. Have fun
- Robert Anderson
Robert I like your stuff but I must agree with Akiva. I'm not going to register in wefollow under "tech". There are 32M people in that list. I'd like to be followed because I share interesting content and enjoy conversation but I'm not going to jump through some sort of hoop.
- Keith - @tsudo
Most of us are glad you are mass unfollowing on twitter so it will be useful for you but this is a bit much
- Keith - @tsudo
Robert: Please tell me which of your accounts I should follow. I'm confused. Cause it's who you follow that counts right?
- Andrew Smith
from fftogo
Andrew: follow @scobleizer or just follow me here, since that's the best place to follow me.
- Robert Scoble
Akiva: anyone cool doesn't need to worry. I am already following you here.
- Robert Scoble
It would be more interesting to just create a new account and start updating that and ignore the old account, and see how long it took for people to find you on the new one.
- Andy Bakun
And FriendFeed's where the real action's at!
- Akiva Moskovitz
thanx Robert @ least I'm not a bore, but irregular in shape lol
- polou/indigo_bow
I'm on wefollow, it's good. But why is it important for people to be on it for you to follow them?
- jjprojects
Robert: why do you care if someone is on wefollow?
- Nick in Manila
Robert: @scobleizer make a deal - I have enjoyed the brief interaction, I will follow you if you follow me
- Geer
not a fan of the wefollow, but i'll always keep my eye on your streams.
- MikeAmundsen
I registered in tech when I joined the industry over 30 years ago. Wefollow? Thanks, but at a glance it doesn't interest me. I'll follow my choices handcrafted as always. And some of them will also handpick me. Following and followers based on some other criteria just doesn't hold water for me. I think you're off the mark here Robert, but I've been nusy with moving and settling this week.
- Ken Camp
There goes the quality of #tech on @wefollow as the spammers join to get in front you. Nice.
- Peter Warnock
Peter: I doubt that this announcement will change the quality of #tech on @wefollow - spammers generally post a picture of a girl they find on the internet and then get followed by guys thinking "ooo she's hot i'll follow" ;)
- Nicholas James
I think wefollow is a useful starting point, but I'd be hesitant to use it as my gatekeeper, unless I was focused on celebrities and social media people.
- Ho John Lee
I'm #46 under Tech... But why is that a determinant?
- Mark Davidson
Wefollow only lets you enter 3 categories at a time. Some of us fit in more than 3 categories. I don't think wefollow is particularly helpful in guiding people.
- Cathryn Hrudicka
Mark: because I'm mostly interested in geeks. It was my way of signaling to the world that I wouldn't be following non-geeks unless I had a good reason to. It was my way of causing a conversation. Wefollow is interesting, by the way. I wish I had other ways to look at the database than just numbers of followers.
- Robert Scoble
The 15,000th "tech" member, by the way, has 53 followers. I found that on page 600: http://wefollow.com/twitter...
- Robert Scoble
I am not listed there because I don't want to spam Twitter with the Wefollow nonsense.
- Louis Gray
So is the thought that you will sync Twitter to wefollow all the time so it becomes your master list and everything else is pruned?
- Todd Hoff
Holden, you don't have to, thanks to lists.
- Louis Gray
Holden: no. Because FriendFeed has groups. If I get tired of who i have followed I'll just open up a new group and start clean.
- Robert Scoble
The following count on http://twitter.com/Scobleizer couldn't keep up with the big unfollow (currently showing 79,249). This reminds me how YouTube used to miss the view count :-)
- Majento
Ohai! I've been following you on Twitter for 2.5 years, on a protected account on which I only follow 5 people (hyperbole). So, yah, we may not have met yet IRL, but I noticed the drop in my follower count, immediately, and I feel like I've lost a friend. While I AM listed on wefollow on my public account, I am most probably listed under categories that do not apply to you. I respect...
more...
- Yvette
Yvette: I am following you here, so no worries.
- Robert Scoble
I know. Isn't it funny how something so simple and non-personal can create an emotional response? I feel like clinging to your pant leg! It's utterly irrational and un-called-for. (And unnecessary.) Please do your thing. Don't mind me. :-)
- Yvette
I wish you could search for people on wefollow, not just under tags, so you could see what tags certain people have used. Unless people have a lot of followers, it's hard to find them. Not all interesting people have a lot of followers.
- jjprojects
I wish Wefollow allowed more than 3 tags. I am listed under podcaster there, the other two are also important to me professionally as is tech, but I could only pick 3. Oh well, I may have to re-think one of my tags.
- Louis Trapani
Wefollow does seem to be a limited implementation of a good idea. A hierarchy would be good, too: what is #web as opposed to #webdeveloper? Isn't one really a subset of the other? Perhaps tagging yourself with #webdeveloper automatically puts you in #web as well, but it doesn't say that.
- James
how can i find myself on their lists? and what is their ranking algo?
- Chris Heath
but then, you follow people according to their tags and not for their content :)
- Apostolos Tsompanopoulos
from twhirl
Don't bother refollowing me on Twitter. The channel we can talk has been here for some time
- Mark Essel
from iPhone
I just didn't want to send the wefollow spam message back to twitter; so I won't be on there. Oh well.
- Phil Crissman
Let me know what my signal strength will be in your input channel. I'm already missing way too many good tweets due to following 2k in twitter. The 1k or so I sub to here feels more manageable
- Mark Essel
from iPhone
+1 Mark Essel - FriendFeed messaging is much better than Twitter DM
- Stuart Miniman
It may be more fun for you if you just follow people you find interesting.
- Citronella
Robert who?
- Big K
Thanks Stuart, before I had a friendfeed account I clinged to DM. now, not so much.
- Mark Essel
I'm on WeFollow but not under Tech. Photography and Social Media yes, but not under Tech. Best of luck with the Unfollowing.
- Jim Goldstein
I've been putting it off, but I've been thinking about doing this, on a much smaller scale, of course ;)
- Jason Preston
I am.
- Zachary TG
OK, I'm listed there under tech, but also other categories. One can be a geek and still tweet about other things, like the arts, science, health care, good causes, etc. I'd like to see more "geeks" expand their horizons and follow people who have multiple interests and tweet about them. Certainly some geeks are multi-faceted and find the applications of technology in all areas of life...
more...
- Cathryn Hrudicka
How many tweeps are you looking to refollow?
- Justin Hileman
I find the sentences "anyone cool doesn't need to worry" and " I'm mostly interested in geeks" to be somewhat contradictory. ; ) I'm not sure what people mean by WeFollow spam, it just sends out one message when you select the tags to be listed under.
- Liz
wefollow is a joke - it's a pumper of the default list that's all.
- Allen Stern
I am listed - have been for a long time - but do not see any real value. I work as a project manager. Friendfeed and Twitter still needs more people from my profession to be competitive to other forums I use. I wish more folks from PMI would join Friendfeed.
- Frode Stenstrøm
looking for writers conferences in MN - please DM me if you know of any good ones! Thanks!
Not really conferences, but I think http://www.openbookmn.org has some interesting stuff sometimes.
- Phil Crissman
Re: Sun VirtualBox - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Hmm. Didn't think of that. My main use for this is testing web sites -- css and javascript on Windows-only browsers. So just having a sandboxed VM works just fine. I can see how USB/device access would be great for more advanced uses, but fortunately I don't need it (at least, not at this point)."
- Phil Crissman
Re: Sun VirtualBox - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Well, no; I don't think it is capable of some of the Parallels features; drag & drop, etc. But still; very good. I'll have to scan the manual and see if there is more I could do with it."
- Phil Crissman
37 songs on my last.fm playlist are no longer available, including Devo's "C'mon," Dilba's "Miracles," and Jerry Harrison's "Man With a Gun." Disappointed.
John E. Bredehoft, ben and edythe liked this
I think it's Warner Bros. that pulled their licenses last week from Last.FM because they could get a better deal with MySpace Music. Very disappointing.
- Dana Franks
from twhirl
Spot on, Dana
- Michael W. May
from twhirl
acck. bummer. the music industry politics suck.
- edythe
Found brief article. See my FriendFeed post http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Ontario Emperor
Hmm...Talking Heads' "Born Under Punches" and Madonna's "Like a Prayer" still played for me this morning. Interesting...
- Ontario Emperor
Hm. I must use last.fm in some oddball way; I've never played songs from the site. I just use iTunes, find last.fm interesting to view my listening habits.
- Phil Crissman
I'm probably the oddball. I've never installed any of last.fm's software. I just select items I like, add them to the playlist, and listen away.
- Ontario Emperor
I scrobble from iTunes, Pandora and I use the last.fm software to listen
- Jeff Quinton
I don't usually play songs on the site unless someone wants me to hear something i don't have and lst.fm has the whole song.
- edythe
On May 17, 2009, the Dilba song came up in my last.fm. I'll re-check "C'mon" and "Man With a Gun."
- John E. Bredehoft
Neither "C'mon" nor "Man With a Gun" are available. But at least we have Dilba.
- John E. Bredehoft
They change periodically without logic. Also, check for variant names. Sometimes the (album version) or a subtitled track will be streamable.
- Michael W. May
Re: A Veritable Smorgasbord of Twitter Alternatives - http://blog.duwanis.com/past...
"IIRC, I thought you _could_ change Plurk's color scheme. However, they made the choice of coupling features with Karma (yes, really), so that might be a feature that is only unlocked at a certain Karma threshold. I also found that the "let's sidescroll into infinity!" design seemed to make fairly large memory demands after awhile. We could blame firefox for that, but either way, it got sluggish after being open for a bit. Regardless, for multiple reasons, I completely agree; do not want. Most of the others, I haven't used much. Jaiku, very little. Identi.ca, _extremely little_. FriendFeed, a little more, and I do like it. I used to think it could be a Twitter replacement, but I dunno. Maybe? You're right though, FriendFeed seems to have their sights set higher than being a Twitter clone; replacement or no, it seems worth watching."
- Phil Crissman
Yes, I am one of the 3%. I'm going to get a T-shirt that says "blame Scoble. He's technically difficult and weird." (Actually that was a Facebook employee who said that, but it fits here too).
Daynah, Alexander Grundner, Ben and 19 other people liked this
Join the 3% Club. Tweet the hashtag #3% so everyone knows who we are.
- Ryan Kuder
I already blame you for a number of things - http://seanreiser.com/node...
- Bastard Operator From FF
We love you Robert ;)
- Vlad Zabblotskyy
Link to something explaining the 3%? Google is useless :-(
- Seth Blank
Will these t-shirts be for sale?!
- Fred Garrett
Seth: http://bit.ly/vk3QC
- Ryan Kuder
I was one of the 3% too. Will proudly wear the shirt.
- Jared Smith
Love the #3% hashtag idea
- Bailey McCann
3% of Twitter users is a lot, especially since they're probably the most active. Unlike the half of Twitterers that leave after one week #3%
- Laaabaseball
Yes, I am definitely in the 3%. Thanks for the link Ryan! #fixreplies #3% ;-)
- Seth Blank
I was one of the 3%. I'm surprised that number is so low considering how passionate everyone was about the change. Although, I encountered maaany people angry about it but didn't even know what the change was.
- Lise
I am surprised it's that low, too. We sure are loud for 3%. I wonder what percentage we are of active users, though, as opposed to total signups?
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
The bigger problem is that the 3% were the vast majority of the early adopters who helped increase twitter's value in the first place.
- Seth Blank
Jandy: out of 1,000 people who visit Twitter, only 10% probably make ANY noise at all and probably only 10% of those (1%) are people like us. So, 3%? That's a LOT of noisy people!
- Robert Scoble
Seth: and that's the deeper problem. Twitter doesn't care about early adopters anymore and have made several moves that communicate that.
- Robert Scoble
If you are going to be at gnomedex, I have a friend who makes T-Shirts, need a cool graphic but I'll print them and bring them.
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
I probably shouldn't... but I will. http://blamescoble.com/permali...
- Phil Crissman
Will this work? http://friendfeed.com/jaredws...
- Jared Smith
@jared - brilliant :-)
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
Is this the right assumption I answered a query just now. Or am I among the people who did not understand the change? "@beeebzzz This reply can not be seen by my followers who are not following you. If I understand it right"
- Gunnar Engblom
It just dawned on me that I have a limited scope of music [mainly metal, industrial and rock variations]. If there's one genre / band you think I must check out, what would it be?
Matthew, Katie: Witch Of The West, Edmund Tay and 16 other people liked this
Country? Bwaa ha ha ha ha
- LogEx
If you're looking for a total 180, I suggest Still Life (Talking) by Pat Metheny Group. Great jazz album.
- Jared Smith
Electronic.
- Alex Scoble
jazz. Miles, Herbie, some of the greats
- Karoli
Radiohead (The Bends)
- You.
Jazz baby...Jaaaaazzzzzz
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
Bluegrass. :)
- Mathew A. Koeneker
I'm seeing lots of Jazz! That would be a true 180 for me..
- embee
But seriously, do you use the music services' features to find new stuff that might be a sibling genres? How into electronic stuff are you? There were a couple of good charts out recently showing relations of genres, I'll try to find them.
- LogEx
Jazz, duh! :)
- directeur
LE: I do.. but i seem to be going in circles around stuff that's indeed "sibling" to what I normally listen to.. Hence the pursuit of something totally unrelated to what I would normally pick..
- embee
Alice in Chains. Give it a good listen before moving on.
- Morgan Haley
Zutons
- Vicky
Jazz, Pat Metheny, John Scofield ...
- Olivier Castets
Definitely Pendulum! Awesome D&B check out the songs tarantula & slam to see if you likeee
- sofarsoShawn
Pandora is a good way to find stuff.
- You.
re All the jazz recommendations: if you like metal you might like John Zorn, Ornette Coleman.
- Phil Crissman
This is one of the tools I was thinking of (though not the main one)... it's pretty quirky, but an interesting concept: http://www.musicovery.com/
- LogEx
Pendulum is kid's electronic music, do yourself a favour and listen to real dnb if you're going to listen to it (which I heartily recommend). =p Spor, Evol Intent, Dieselboy, Mason, Ewun, Black Sun Empire, Limewax, Counterstrike, Technical Itch and Calyx are some decent dnb producers. Course, it's not for everyone =)
- Daniel Bruce
After a hard day's listening to industrial I like to wind down with something Arabic; female Lebanese artists are very good. Clauda Chemali, Nancy Ajram, Najwa Karam...
- Mark H
Good techno....but be picky, candy-rave crap is for the birds. Shoot for stuff like The Chemical Brothers, Goose and Does It Offend You, Yeah.
- Christian (Simply X)
a cappella! :)
- Adam Lasnik
As many people have already suggested, try Jazz. And probably listen to Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree and Camel.
- Faraz Mullick
On a technical level, Jazz is far more impressive than metal and it's good listening as well.
- Christian (Simply X)
Lounge, also check out 'Maserati' and 'Explosions In The Sky'
- nouhad
try battles. i love them.
- Terry O'Fee
check out http://www.last.fm/music... O:-)
- Marcos Marado
I've recently discovered P-Love, sort of instrumental hip-hop, check it out, maybe you'll like it too: http://www.last.fm/music...
- Anton
One?
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
Western Swing, as for the band either Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys (if you want to go old school) or Asleep at the Wheel.
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
Acid Jazz - forget all that old music, haven't you heard it all before?
- Chris Loft
Chris: I started dabbling with Brooklyn Funk Essentials but nothing extensive.. good stuff
- embee
Throw a dart at my top 50 on last.fm and if you know it, throw another dart. ;)
- Michael W. May
try some African Tribal or Traditional Japanese music?
- alphaxion
@britneyspears anything from her crazy era
- sofarsoShawn
I'd suggest jazz too, but the path to it for you might be via progressive rock; Rush, Dream Theatre, etc.
- Aaron D'Souza
Metal is mandatory Scott :P I thrive on that. I needed more variety next to it :)
- embee
Manu Chao and/or Lady Gaga
- Zee.
If you like acid jazz, you'll probably like funk and afrobeat.
- Andrew C
Or perhaps Texas Swing...? Which is really just a term for rockabilly from TX. Check out Two Tons of Steel....they rock!
- Christian (Simply X)
Re: The Term “Hacker” as Shibboleth - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"That's a great point. The traditional "Shibboleth" would render group membership obvious simply by it's pronunciation, even in the more modern sense by it's mere use. That said, in using of the term "hacker", it's seldom takes very long to see in which sense the speaker/writer is using it, so if not a shibboleth, it seems quite close. A litmus test, perhaps, but shibboleth just sounds far cooler. ;-)"
- Phil Crissman
Re: Redcar - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"True the site doesn't say much about supported languages; but it states it's compatible with (or at least, designed to be compatible with) textmate bundles, of which there are quite a few. Heavily in development, yes. Still, looks very promising."
- Phil Crissman
Re: Can We Stop Versioning the Web, Already? - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Hey Rob. Yeah, wasn't knocking your post, per se, though I guess seeing 'web 4.0' written down is part of what sparked it. I can be a bit of a cynic at times, but I still enjoy watching the web grow & evolve. I'd just rather wait till it evolves to pin a name on the next evolution."
- Phil Crissman
US Intelligence says the economy is currently America's greatest threat. Time to replace the War on Terror with the War on the Economy.
No more "wars," please... they never solve anything, and only shrink our civil liberties while draining our wallets.
- Kenneth LeFebvre
Good idea. A War on Wars.
- Phil Crissman
alloy's passengerpane at master - GitHub - http://github.com/alloy...
git clone git://github.com/alloy/passengerpane.git
- Phil Crissman
Re: Penn Jillette on proselytizing - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Er, thanks?"
- Phil Crissman
Just got two new followers, both tweeting "So this is twitter eh?..." as their first tweets. I smell spam.
bcultral, mjc, PENGUIN: MAJOR CAPS LOCK and 3 other people liked this
FWIW, I have noted that /(trying|learning|testing) twitter/ is a pretty common first comment. That said, identical comments like that suggest spam to me also.
- Phil Crissman
Crispy, pan-fried, delicious SPAM!
- Josh Haley
Two consecutive new followers both tweeting the exact same tweet is too much of a coincidence unless one or both of them come forward to explain what's going on.
- Morton Fox
SPAM!!!!!! Or is this twitter eh? =P
- Shevonne
Are we human or are we Twitter spammer? :)
- Morton Fox
wasn't us!
- Josh Haley
Capistrano - DreamHost - http://wiki.dreamhost.com/index...
run "sed 's/# ENV\\[/ENV\\[/g' #{deploy_to}/current/config/environment.rb > #{deploy_to}/current/config/environment.temp" run "mv #{deploy_to}/current/config/environment.temp #{deploy_to}/current/config/environment.rb"
- Phil Crissman
How to Stump Anti-Abortionists With One Question « Unreasonable Faith - http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009...
Trish R, Roney Smith, Ontario Emperor and 16 other people liked this
"If abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?"
- EricaJoy
from Bookmarklet
You can see, literally see the moments in which their brains implode.
- EricaJoy
The obvious answer is the death penalty, because it isn't hypocritical at all to be pro-life and for the death penalty
- Roshan Vyas
</sarcasm>
- Roshan Vyas
Brian, I'm having trouble parsing what you're saying...may be because of my cold. Can you clarify this: "Well, according to the left, illegal abortion is universally suicidal"?
- EricaJoy
I don't know that they will die, but they will certainly have serious health complications...and this isn't frickin' conjecture, Brian, this is historic experience.
- Alex Scoble
Clearly you haven't thought this through. All females should be locked away until they are married. There. solves the whole problem.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
But married females have abortions too.
- Brian Sullivan
So you'd rather that the female suffer EVERY TIME as well?
- Alex Scoble
Yes, Brian, those are the ones that must be stoned to death by the rest of the villagers.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
And for the record, Brian, you are caught in the same conundrum as you have yet to state what you think should be a fair punishment for illegal abortions.
- Alex Scoble
What frustrates me is that the law is inconsistent. A fetus killed during the commission of a crime can be cause for a murder charge (at least in California and a dozen or so other states), but the mother choosing an abortion for the same fetus is protected.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Interesting discussion. Brian, I still don't understand your answer to "If abortion is illegal then women who get illegal abortions should be.....?"
- EricaJoy
yeah this question is common in that debate
- Anthony Citrano
Sadly,abortion clinics are not regulated and there are some real bad ass incompetent chains in operation. I would rather the fight be to rid the industry of these butchers and allow women truly safe abortions. Believing some back street abortionists (nurses) would do better than what is out there.
- Janet
OK. So if abortion isn't like REAL murder (deserving the death penalty or life imprisonment) then what, would you say it is equivalent to? How about a cat? Killing cats is illegal isn't it? Don't you get a fine for animal cruelty or something? That makes sense; abortion is like killing cats. I can see the pro-lifer signs now... Oh wait, but cats don't have SOULS. Right. So, this is about killing a soul - but isn't that the realm of RELIGION, and therefore should be kept out of government entirely?
- Jeanette Bosman
That pesky Constitution and Bill of Rights - they are always gettin' in the way of what's right and wrong!
- Jeanette Bosman
This is a typical, nonsensical, ad hominem argument that preys on the fact that most pro lifers can't articulate an intelligent case against abortion. What do you mean what would happen? If abortion was illegal, and someone broke the law, they would be subject to the laws of the state - whatever those laws might be. What is so difficult about that and how do you make the giant leap from that flimsy argument to allegedly proving abortion isn't murder?
- Kelly Johns
Aside from the ironic fact that it is men who are the most adamant about controlling women's reproduction, there is long historical precedent for considering the killing of a child "less" of a crime than murder, even a child already born. The "age of reason" protects children from being charged for crimes they were too young to judge the consequences of, however, it also reduces the...
more...
- Phil Boiarski
Just to play the devil's advoate: I hate to say it, but it would actually be an easy question. You would do nothing to women who had 'illegal' abortions. The procedure is likely what would be illegal, not 'having had it performed.' Just like I could go to jail for possessing illegal drugs, but not for having taken them last week. Is that not what would have been done pre-Rowe v. Wade? Nothing? I imagine the idea would be charge the doctor who performed it, but not the woman.
- Phil Crissman
I'm just thinking out loud... not making an argument for that.
- Phil Crissman
"abortion clinics are not regulated" WTF? They sure as hell are. They have to abide by all the local, state and federal laws related to medical establishments. This is a medical procedure, not something done with little thought. Your comment implies that terminating a pregnancy is something done with little thought or care. How disrespectful!
- Tom Limoncelli
like it would matter ~ blah blah blah in the Bible, blah my preacher it's not a tumor...etc
- sofarsoShawn
@Tom, I did ultrasound demos in abortion clinics and there is one nasty chain with really horrid doctors that roll into town, get no hospital coverage and cause grave harm to the unsuspecting women. Planned Parenthood finally fired the group but guess what....they still practice in a tri-state area.
- Janet
And Tom, these doctors in this chain are family practice new graduates farmed for this whole industry - multi-million dollar industry. I want the procedure back in the hands of board certified ob/gyn and not new graduate family practitioners.
- Janet
People used to be more careful? You mean...like..back when women were married off when they barely had their pubes? The gov't shouldn't try to force someone to make a life-long commitment to a child. Why bring a child into a hostile environment? Adoption doesn't work. Will YOU take care of the baby?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
I believe this talk of "baby murder" is meaningless because when abortion is legal the fetus is per definition not a baby. What you feel about that is based often based on personal belief or religion and hence impossible to debate. You just have to wait 4 yrs and vote.
- Thomas Bøhm
Agreed, Thomas. The fact that religion or something like it comes into play makes it a useless debate that never goes anywhere. Although, I really feel that making it illegal infringes on someone's rights.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
We live in an age of scientific enlightenment: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence." The "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Univ. of Descarte, Paris - "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic
- Kelly Johns
Vasectomies for all the little boys, its quick and can be fixed later. No one has to die.
- Amber, Random Time Lord
Of course life may be present from the moment of conception according molecular biology's definition of life, but although science (or biology for that matter) has yet to agree on a definition of life, the same goes for many bacteria. Not really helpful. Not saying you, but just as many pro-lifers clutch after fitting quotes from science but actually base it on their belief or religion, this a philosophical question of limits of human life. Not so easily debatable, I think. And to late for it. Going to bed.
- Thomas Bøhm
Didn't mean to offend anybody, only to calm it down. Good night friendfeeders. Stay united.
- Thomas Bøhm
So if two homo sapiens procreate and a male sperm unites with a female oocyte, then what is it? Could it be anything other than a homo sapien? Is it a slug, a bacteria, or a non-human blob? This is ridiculous. Go to your local abortion clinic and send a sample of an aborted fetus to a lab and have them test the DNA to see if its human or not. I am talking about scientific evidence here, not religious dogma.
- Kelly Johns
So, because it contains human DNA, means it's a full fledged person? And so killing it should be a crime? If I cut off my toe (thereby killing the toe since it depends on me for life) is that murder? It certainly contains human DNA and all the little cells in there are very much alive.
- Jeanette Bosman
Jeannette, with all due respect, are you seriously comparing your toe to a fetus?
- Kelly Johns
Sure am. My toe is a part of my body, the same way a fetus is. If I want to cut it off, what does that have to do with anyone else?
- Jeanette Bosman
The difference is, your toe cannot survive once it's not "part of your body" anymore so I guess it really isn't the same.
- Justin McGuire
Neither can an undeveloped fetus.
- Jeanette Bosman
@Justin, A 30, 60 or 90 day old fetus can not survive outside the body either so I guess you just confirmed Jeanette's point!
- Jeff P. Henderson
Not really, because at no stage in the life of a toe can it ever be viable on it's own.
- Justin McGuire
So then you believe that it's OK to abort a fetus, so long as it is unable to sustain life outside of the mother?
- Jeanette Bosman
No, I believe comparing a toe to a baby is insane.
- Justin McGuire
Biologically, from the moment of conception this new human being is not a part of the mother’s body. The zygote has a distinct genetic code separate from the mother. At no time does a mother's body ever have male genitals, two brains, or four kidneys. The pre-born human being may be dependent upon the mother for nutrition, however, this does not diminish his or her humanity, it only proves it. Dependence upon a parent for survival is not a capital crime.
- Kelly Johns
The fact is, killing something is still killing something. You can call it whatever you want, but it doesn't change the act.
- Justin McGuire
What always amazes me is that the same people that think it's OK to have an abortion are usually the ones proudly displaying "Save the Whales" on their bumper.
- Justin McGuire
What always amazes me is that the same people that think it's NOT OK to let others have an abortion are usually the ones proudly displaying "Support the Death Penalty" on their bumper.
- Jeremy Toeman
I think abortion should be legal and my personal choice, not yours, not the governments, and not your churches. I'm for capital punishment when appropriate and I don't have a save the anything bumper sticker on my car.
- Jeff P. Henderson
Since your personal choice is all that matters, should you then be able to kill your 5 year old since he's "your's" too? Anybody with a conscience knows that's not right either.
- Justin McGuire
@Justin - ah but you say "killing something" not killing "someone" - your thoughts betray you ! Besides a more accurate description of a fertilized human egg is "a potential for life" - the chances of a fertilized egg to develop to term is slimmer than most people think - http://biopinionated.com/2008...
- Nils Reinton
the comparison of "killing a person" to an abortion is very apples and oranges, and has no place in the debate. nobody will *EVER* convince anyone else to change their opinion on this part of the argument, and glib/snotty remarks just turn the debate into a worthless shouting match.
- Jeremy Toeman
For all those people who are so against abortion. Will you personally take responsibility for the welfare of these children if the mother was willing to go ahead bring the child to term?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Mince words all you like, the sad part is you don't see anything wrong with it.
- Justin McGuire
@Rasheen - You're not going to hear me argue about how great the adoption system is, it is broken. However, do you believe your life is of any value? If so, what makes your life any more valuable than somebody else's? If not, then I cannot have a reasonable conversation with you anyways.
- Justin McGuire
Abortion is legal. A woman who has an abortion is not a criminal. Whether or not I have an abortion is MY decision and no one else's. Today is the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, giving me the right to make that CHOICE without anyone else interfering with my choice. If you're against abortion, then don't have one and work towards revising/overturning the death penalty. Also, people who call themselves PRO-LIFE forget that there is a woman's life involved in this decision as well. She also matters.
- Trish R
When you want to have control over a woman's reproductive freedom without giving her a few $100k to raise a kid then yes, you are saying that she doesn't matter.
- Trish R
@Trish - I think most people (i.e., not those in this video) that are pro-life are concerned about abortion used as birth control. There are plenty of opportunities to avoid the $100K it takes to rear children prior to a pregnancy.
- Joel
Joel, I've done volunteer work and worked as an escort for Planned Parenthood for over 10 years and I've never met a woman who uses abortion as a method for birth control. This is a subject that people just have to agree to disagree, because everyone is passionate about this issue and it's impossible to say anything to change anyone's minds, either way. In the meantime, abortion is legal and the women who have them aren't criminals. That was the main point I wanted to make.
- Trish R
Trish - I agree with you, those who have abortions aren't criminals. I have worked with people that have used abortion as birth control. For example, stories like http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/risks-r... make me very, very sad. What's wrong with contraceptives?
- Joel
That's why I'm hoping some of the administration changes will also include expanded sex ed for teenagers.
- Trish R
@Joel maybe if our administration had supported contraception for the past 8 years, as opposed to "magical abstinence" we'd have lowered pregnancy rates AND lowered abortion rates.
- Jeremy Toeman
@Justin I don't think any of us who support a woman's right to choose actually think abortions are an ideal choice. there's nobody who's arguing for "abortion", we are arguing for "rights to have an abortion". one of the biggest complaints i have about the position that you (and many others) take is you somehow assume that just because I don't want to take away someone's rights, I somehow want to see women having as many abortions as possible. tip - i don't, and nor do most.
- Jeremy Toeman
@Jeremy I agree sex edu is important - the major influencers are in the home, far away from federal edu programs.
- Joel
It really is amazing how intelligent people will validate an article that makes a big assumption from a very weak argument. I have posted reasoned scientific answers and yet just because I take the pro life position I am considered religious & that "invalidates" the argument. Yet NO ONE has provided a scientific, reasoned, intelligent response for killing a baby other than "it is my right" or "I should be able to do whatever I want with my body" or "who's going to pay to raise the kids" this is nonsense.
- Kelly Johns
@Jeremy- While I appreciate your last comment, I am arguing for the rights of the innocent baby. Why is that not even an option? Joel, you are absolutely right.
- Justin McGuire
@Joel first, why do we assume contraception is a "home" issue, but algebra, spelling, geography, biology, etc are not? i'm playing a little devil's advocate here to make my point, but i think that it actually does have a place in the school. we teach about societal structure (civics), and the impact of unwanted children is unquestionably a civil issue (in addition to a personal one). lastly, the need for it is not for well-educated upper middle class (friendfeed users) households...
- Jeremy Toeman
@Kelly your statement takes the pre-emptive agreement from all that abortion is exactly as you define it, "killing a baby". you have to recognize that not everyone accepts your position...
- Jeremy Toeman
Ok Jeremy, then let me rephrase it, if the consensus of molecular biologists and scientists is that life begins at conception, can you prove otherwise without using personal opinion? If the zygote is not human, then what is it?
- Kelly Johns
Kelly, a zygote is NOT a human in the eyes of the law. Abortion is legal. You're having a moral argument about a legal issue. You might believe that science supports your opinion, but the law does not and I thought that's what this discussion was about -- If you believe abortion should be outlawed, what do you propose the punishment should be for those women who break the law?
- Trish R
@Kelly okay, it's a living entity. but it's not a baby either. not at 6, 8, 10 weeks. and yes, i am a parent and have seen all the ultrasounds along the way. and yes, it would be a heartbreaking decision to make if i was ever in the position where for some reason i had to be part of it. but you have no part of that decision-making process.
- Jeremy Toeman
Trish, Roe was based on 1970s science, so you are avoiding the issue. Please stop avoiding my questions and answer them intelligently, if the zygote is not human, then what is it? A slug, a fish, a tadpole? Remember, before you answer, the zygote has its own human DNA and its own genetic code.
- Kelly Johns
Look, even if a zygote is *human* in the sense that a dead body is 'human remains', and a severed limb is a human body part, that does not automatically mean that it is, legally, a *person*. There is a distinction to be made here. It is entirely possible that within our lifetimes the great apes will be accorded the status of legal persons, and perhaps also some of the cetacean species....
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- Michael R. Bernstein
Jeremy, when you say it is not a baby, is that your personal opinion or is it proven science? As early as 21 days after conception the baby's heart has begun to beat and has its own blood type, usually different from the mother's. After 40 days, brain waves can be read on an EEG. This is usually BEFORE the average time a woman realizes she is pregnant (5-6 weeks after conception)
- Kelly Johns
I already answered your question: A zygote is not a human being under the law and therefore not protected. And scientifically, a zygote is a cell or group of cells that are formed by fertilization and will eventually become a viable human being. And I take issue with you saying I'm not responding intelligently. If that's the case, then end the discussion.
- Trish R
Michael, a severed limb doesn't have its own blood type nor does it have its own DNA and distinct genetic code. Furthermore, your toe or arm never has its own heart, kidneys, brain, etc.
- Kelly Johns
Trish, no you did not answer the question, my question was if the zygote is not human then what in the world is it? I would never insult your personal intelligence, I was referring to the specific answer you gave.
- Kelly Johns
I answered that question. See above. And my answer doesn't lack intelligence, it just doesn't suit you. There's a huge difference.
- Trish R
@Kelly - you're missing the point. In this discussion, definitions are legal ones, not scientific. A zygote is not a 'person,' under the law. Talking about what is(n't) a human being muddles the argument.
- Joel
Sperm have distinct DNA and the cellular equivalent of functional organs, *and* they can be viable outside the body for a certain period of time. Are we back to discussing whether masturbation is actually mass murder?
- Victor Ganata
Trish, so at 21 days when the heart is beating, then is it human? My question to you was - is the group of "cells" as you call it a homo sapien or not? Human personhood does not depend on size, location, or level of human dependence.
- Kelly Johns
No, it's not. This is the third time I've answered that question.
- Trish R
Joel, I am afraid you are the one missing the point, I am saying we need to look at scientific evidence, you are saying just because something is law that it is right - so when slavery was legal, did that make it right?
- Kelly Johns
@Kelly - personhood does depend on level of dependence.
- Joel
Kelly, you're picking and choosing arguments to fit your desired conclusion. Identical twins don't have their own independent blood type or genetic code. Does that make them the *same* person? Would a person that lacked some or all of the organs you mention be *less* of a person?
- Michael R. Bernstein
@Kelly - please supply us with a single source that defines the use of the word "baby" to describe a human entity pre-delivery. nobody debates the word "human entity", but you are using the term "baby". it might *become* a baby, but it isn't one prior to delivery. an abortion is just as accurately an "adult-killer" as it is "baby-killer" (or "senior-killer") but those certainly don't spark the same reaction now, do they?
- Jeremy Toeman
@Joel, personhood depends on level of dependence? Please explain
- Kelly Johns
On the other end of the spectrum, most states in the U.S. (except Missouri) consider a human being who has no brain activity not alive. If so, then clearly a zygote is not alive either, as it doesn't even have a brain.
- Victor Ganata
Whether for or against abortion depends on when you think (a separate) human consciousness appears, or "soul" if that´s your measurement. And you´re absolutely free to hold your own opinion on this, philosophically well-grounded or not. But AFAIC most other "evidence" presented in this thread are meaningless in this discussion, and just (poor) rhetoric attempts (or worse, just ignorance to what the "evidence" actually means). Now I´m going to surf tech blogs the rest of the evening for sure:)
- Thomas Bøhm
As explaned previously, a 'person' in this argument, is define in legal terms. In this case, being utterly dependent on life in the womb doesn't constitute a person.
- Joel
Kelly, you want scientific evidence? Fine. Let's choose organized cortical neural activity as our benchmark, and therefore it's not a person until it's about 4.5 months old. This would neatly dovetail with the current definition of death as the *cessation* of organized cortical activity.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Michael: are you saying 4.5 months after conception or 4.5 months after the child is born?
- Kelly Johns
Sorry Joel, personhood does not depend on level of dependence, bad argument
- Kelly Johns
Thomas, please explain which evidence I presented was meaningless. It is easy to float ideas, harder to prove them.
- Kelly Johns
@Kelly - it does, legally
- Joel
If the baby is not legally human while in the womb, why is Scott Peterson on death row for double murder? Your argument which states "it is legal, therefore it is ok" is invalid, because when slavery was legal, it was NOT ok, just like it is NOT ok now, nor will it ever be.
- Kelly Johns
Kelley, 4.5 months after conception. Sometimes as late as 5.5 months.
- Michael R. Bernstein
IMHO, all the arguing about whether a zygote/embryo/whatever qualifies as a person (and when, under what circumstances, etc) is absolutely missing the point. It's trying to take an inherently fuzzy and messy ethical question and turn it into a binary decision. Case in point: My half-sister's mother died in childbirth. Had the technology been a little better, they would have known in...
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- Joel Webber
Joel, but if molecular biologists can come to the conclusion that life begins at conception, how does that make it "messy ethical territory"? "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic
- Kelly Johns
A molecular biologist looks at living cells - a class of life far broader than the legal term for 'person'
- Joel
Joel (not Webber): still waiting for an answer to the last post I did in response to your "legal" position
- Kelly Johns
Ok, how about an embryologist who is widely accepted by the Academy of Pediatrics? "It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual. "Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.
- Kelly Johns
Kelly, you're again conflating 'life', 'human' and 'personhood', as it suits your desired conclusion. And 1968 isn't exactly what I would call a modern reference.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Michael, how about the 1981 US Senate report, is that more current for you? "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."(Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981)
- Kelly Johns
Also, the Official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics seems to think Patten's work is ok, they describe it as "widely accepted" http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi...
- Kelly Johns
Kelly, that is still conflating 'life' and 'human' with 'person'. And no, 1981 isn't recent enough either. Try finding something less than a decade old. However, I've grown to distrust political summaries of science. My personal non-authoritative opinion is that if brain death marks the end of the legal person (even if the body is otherwise still alive), brain birth (or the beginning of organized cortical activity) should mark the beginning of personhood. It has a nice symmetry to it.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Kelley, did you even *read* that AAP review? It was written in *1969*.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Michael, the point is if there is uncertainty about when human life begins (which I contend there is NOT based on the proof I presented), the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life.
- Kelly Johns
What *proof*? Poorly constructed arguments-from-authority, cherry picking facts, elevating historical contingency in law and medicine to received wisdom, and willfully and repeatedly conflating concepts that should be discussed separately do not constitute 'proof', unless you're willing to overlook those flaws in order to vindicate your chosen conclusion in your imagination.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Michael, poorly constructed arguments? You are clearly close-minded to the scientific facts that surround you. You and I are not going to agree on when life begins obviously, however, like I said in my last post which you ignored, was that IF there is doubt, the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life, do you agree or disagree?
- Kelly Johns
again, you're conflating 'life' with 'personhood'. When in doubt, and all other things being equal, we should err on the side of caution for preserving the life of a person. But just because a zygote, embryo, or fetus is 'alive', and arguably 'human', does not yet make it a 'person'.
- Michael R. Bernstein
And you've presented very little in the way of 'scientific facts'. And actually, just using the term 'scientific fact' is a shibboleth indicating you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Personhood is properly defined by membership in the human species, not by the stage of development within that species. Personhood is not a matter of size, skill, or degree of intelligence. Also, it is dangerous when people in power are free to determine whether other, less powerful lives are meaningful.
- Kelly Johns
First of all, you're wrong, personhood already extends to non-humans in the form of corporations. Second, I predict (though this is merely opinion) that within my lifetime we will see *some* legal jurisdictions (though possibly not the US) recognize personhood in members of other species, and possibly non-organic sentients. Where will your argument stand if that comes to pass? Meanwhile, this is just another example of your elevating historical contingency to received wisdom.
- Michael R. Bernstein
By the way, since you insist on conflating separate concepts, here is a little demonstration of the weakness this introduces to your argument: It *is* dangerous when people in power are free to determine whether other less powerful lives are meaningful. This is an excellent reason to oppose the death penalty and support vegetarianism. Are you a vegetarian? Do you support the death penalty?
- Michael R. Bernstein
Wow, your ad hominem attacks don't help your case Michael, let me rephrase it for you, if two Human Beings have sex and the female becomes pregnant, what else besides a human could it be? A monkey? An S-corp? This is very simple stuff and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
- Kelly Johns
I'll repeat what I've already said before: It's human, it's alive, but it isn't a person, at least not from the moment of conception. And Erica, I will graciously refrain from adding any further comments here. You may want to moderate the thread.
- Michael R. Bernstein
It's *your* thread. You can say "no more comments here please" and enforce that with subsequent deletions if necessary.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Potential for personhood is simply not the same as actually being a person. Otherwise, why even draw the line at conception?
- Victor Ganata
Safari CSS hack redux | theMechanism, llc. - http://themechanism.com/blog...
@media screen and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio:0) { /* Safari 3.0 and Chrome rules here */ }
- Phil Crissman
Re: Apple ❤’s Me - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
""Known faults" -- yes, I expect it's something like that. It's already back, fixed! I'm totally impressed. Hoping that it lasts for awhile now. :-)"
- Phil Crissman
Re: Displaying a Gmail ATOM Feed In Google Reader - http://philcrissman.com/2007...
"Nice. Simper the better."
- Phil Crissman
Re: In which I am no longer a very good bachelor - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"And I eventually did open the potato chips. I had a small bowl of them. Then wrapped them up and put them away. :sigh. I guess I'm getting old!"
- Phil Crissman
Re: In which I am no longer a very good bachelor - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"I'm not even sure that it's "self control", per se. I'm not actually doing that much. But thanks! No need to feel guilty. Now I feel guilty, for unwittingly spreading guilt around. :-("
- Phil Crissman
Re: In which I am no longer a very good bachelor - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Hmm. I don't know! Sounds like a great idea, but I am insanely busy. :-( Maybe next week."
- Phil Crissman
Re: I hold strong opinions about the placement of curly braces - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"And they do!"
- Phil Crissman
Re: I hold strong opinions about the placement of curly braces - http://philcrissman.com/2009...
"Thanks guys. It was fun to write."
- Phil Crissman
Re: Using K2 Hooks - http://philcrissman.com/2008...
"A plugin is a great idea for this. Thanks for stopping by!"
- Phil Crissman
What comics are in your feed reader? I've got xkcd.com and qwantz.com. Oh and freak angels.
David Cook, ronin, Susan Beebe and 6 other people liked this
xkcd, Geek and Poke, and indexed
- Hao Chen
hobotopia @ http://apelad.blogspot.com/
- Ha3rvey (not Akiva)
savagechickens.com
- Ha3rvey (not Akiva)
xkcd, dilbert, and penny arcade
- Benjamin Golub
from fftogo
penny arcade, xkcd, and i play WoW so ding! (http://crispygamer.com/comics...)
- Chris Harris
boy on a stick and slither (boasas.com)
- lisa-k
nice. I like indexed and never saw savagechickens, pretty good!
- felix
xkcd & qwantz, http://samandfuzzy.com, penny arcade, http://questionablecontent.net, http://overcompensating.com .. probably a few others.
- Phil Crissman
Geek and Poke, PHD Comics, xkcd, Dilbert
- Frederic
My avatar icon is shamelessly ripped from a savage chickens comic.
- Ha3rvey (not Akiva)
I use Darkgate comic slurper http://darkgate.net/comic/ to get a bunch of daily strips. Love it!
- LuluGirl896
xkcd, indexed, Able & Baker, Married to the Sea, Toothpaste for Dinner, Jerkcity, ASCII Art Farts, Wondermark, Perry Bible Fellowship, Dresden Codak, Lackadaisy Cats... Hm. Guess I like web comics and not necessarily in that order.
- Akiva Moskovitz
questionablecontent.net, ctrl-alt-delete and I get cyanide & happiness forced upon me every so often... :)
- Vero Pepperrell
Re: 14 Rocks Songs With Stuttering In Them at philcrissman.com - http://philcrissman.com/2008...
"Good additions. I almost added "I am the walrus" when I first made the list, but I'm not really sure if John is stuttering or if "coo coo ca joob" (or whatever that line is) is simply what he's trying to tell us. Who can say?"
- Phil Crissman
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