Brilliant! - Josh Haley from iPhone

I thought it was cutely self-referential and definitely a welcome aside for a movie that otherwise takes itself a little too seriously. - Akiva

I hated that part. Too on the nose. - Derrick

The part that I hated was when they actually had lines about 'terror'. I mean, c'mon. Cameron might as well have interrupted the movie with a PSA. - Akiva

Or hard-sci-fi knobs. - Derrick

O.O - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

I probably should have found it kind of cute or tongue in cheek. But really it was just one of the first (of many) things to totally take me out of the movie. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

I searched in imdb and got 2 hits, im guessing your all talking about the new film called Avatar? http://www.imdb.com/keyword... - Halil

Yep Halil, we are talking about Avatar. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

I'm with Joe. the first mention of it made me groan internally. - jbrotherlove

is that related to "hardtofindium"? - Yolanda

Wasn't that in that silly "The Core" movie? - Yolanda

Yolanda, that was the other film in the link i posted, so yes it was apprently, although i never watched the film properly, even though film4 keeps repeating it! i agree, it wasnt all that great a film! - Halil

I just saw and liked the movie. For me unobtanium was take-it-or-leave, but the war/terror allusions, nay, PSAs (++Akiva) were eyeroll jazzercise inducing. - Micah

I never said the movie wasn't pretty. It really is. But I'm not willing to give the movie a pass just based off of that. The 3D earns it nothing in my book, the movie is only going to be viewed in that kind of 3D for a few months, after that it'll have to hold up in 2D for the rest of it's existence. Its hard to tell, but I really didn't hate Avatar. I was disappointed by it, and I think it is getting too much of a pass by people. But it was ok. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

the story's not good, and I judge people who give it a pass. It's insane that you can have a 2 hour and 40 minute movie with so few details about anything related to the plot or characters. the only character with any depth at all is jake, and he doesn't have a lot. - Richard Lawler

it was pretty much a videogame story, without the game. - Richard Lawler

Wait a second, are you all saying that you've never enjoyed a single movie just on its visuals or its action? Every movie you've ever watched that is entertaining had a deep, complex plot? To me personally, I basically agree with echostreamer: it's not really about "giving the story a pass," it's about the story doing its job, which in this case was to get you from one groundbreaking visual tapestry to the next. I think it did it well enough that I didn't mind it (I chuckled at unobtainium, btw). - Chieze Okoye

A movie doesn't have to be deep and complex. It does have to make sense and explain itself, Avatar doesn't. You are giving it a pass because the story didn't do its job. It never gave any of the surrounding characters any depth or any motivation for their actions. Even in an action movie, that's unacceptable. - Richard Lawler

What? This is the far future when humans have developed great technology but have also ravaged Earth. One company is searching for <insert-resource-name> which leads them to <planet-where-resource-exists> and conflict with the native population of <insert-race-name>, which happens to live on top of a huge store of <insert-resource-name>. Motivation of company: Money/<resource>. Motivation of indigenous race: trying not to get overrun by humans. Am I missing something? That's all that's really needed. It was simple, but it covered all the required bases for me. - Chieze Okoye

I mean yes, the secondary characters are all more properly called caricatures, but to say that they didn't have any motivation is a bit much as they all had quite clear and simple motivations that were easily understood. Not unlike almost every other action movie ever made. - Chieze Okoye

Applied Phlebotinum - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki... - tehKenny

Chieze - That covers absolutely zero bases. You know what you didn't mention in your breakdown? A single individual character. you know why you didn't? Because none of them have any identifying characteristics, you can't tell them from each other. Every good action movie has more characters that are developed better. Avatar is not a good action movie. - Richard Lawler

The company didn't go on a suicide revenge mission at the end, the barrel chested war caricature did. Indigenous race didn't fall in love with an alien, the one character did. Pilot B didn't go up against an entire army to help some alien race, the one character did. Too bad we never got to know any of them at all. - Richard Lawler

But like, the Bourne Trilogy had zero memorable characters besides Bourne himself but I would call that an excellent series of action movies. This is just the first example off of the top of my head. I didn't mention any specific characters in my overview because the text would have gotten too long and I was just trying to give an explanatory gist. - Chieze Okoye

Bourne Trilogy sucked, the books weren't any good and the movies were empty shells. I said good action movies. and every bourne flick I saw had at least two or three better developed characters more than avatar. - Richard Lawler

I basically disagree with everything you said there (except the part about the books not being any good). I guess we won't see eye-to-eye on this one. - Chieze Okoye

Good action movies are things like Die Hard, Aliens, Indiana Jones. In those flicks individual characters have their own identity and motivation, because they're well written. Avatar is a two hour 40 minute special fx ramble with no depth to anyone except Jake Sully. - Richard Lawler

Wow, if you thought only Jake Sully had depth, you weren't watching the movie close enough. - Akiva

I think everyone saying this movie sucks because it's storyline isn't "complex" are just jumping on a bandwagon and being contrary for contrarian sake. The story is simple, true. The characters that count are believable and the story does what it needs to do. It gets you from point a to b to c in the visual storyline. What I don't see people talking about is how successfully Cameron is at telling a VISUAL STORY. .Sure the characters don't jibber jabber in Shakespearean prose but what they don't say is translated SPECTACULARLY on the screen. You're not told many things in AVATAR but you certainly are SHOWN them. - veo

unobtainium is from Rocky and Bullwinkle ;) - WarLord

Also, unobtainum was kind of dumb but it's been used in countless sci-fi stories over the past 100 years. get over it. - veo

So...I'm expected to take a mediocre plot in an "epic" film because it "does what it needs to?" I'm the douchebag or expecting a story to try to do something more than just the bare minimum that is required? .. I could also point out that saying people whose opinions differ from yours are just stating them to be contrary and to jump on a bandwagon is a really douchebaggy statement. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

Amber, Avatar is pretty (can't say I didn't try). - jbrotherlove

Amber, it's REALLY pretty. I think that honestly you're best just spending the $10 now to see it in 3D in theaters because that experience is not really replicable anywhere else. - Chieze Okoye

I prefer Wonderflonium - WoH: Professor MOTHRA

It HAS a story, and it tells the story it's got well. It's just that the story's been told a thousand times before, and it does very little new with the formula. Once you take away the visuals and 3D, you're left with a pretty routine oppressed-people-with-an-unlikely-savior story. I still think it was worth watching in 3D because the technology is really amazing, but the claims of overall quality to the film are greatly exaggerated. What it is, is an important stepping stone on the way to someone actually using this technology to create a film with a story visionary enough to match its eye candy. - Jandy

+++Jandy - RAPatton from iPhone

Jandy is smart, and a less grumpy person than me. Listen to her. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

lol. It helps that I spent a good portion of the day on Monday discussing the film on Row Three - what I just said is pretty much the short version of a dozen or so very long comments over there. - Jandy

I kept looking for a place to jump in over there, but most of what I had to say was already getting said and the same arguments were being brought up against it. I didn't think jumping in just to say "Nuh-uh!!!" would have been very effective. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

Hee! Yeah, once the guys get going over there, it can be tough to jump in. The funny thing is, that thread is still going (nearly up to 200 comments now) but no one's been talking about Avatar for a long time. - Jandy

Amber, if it helps. As much bitching as I've done over the movie. I would still recommend seeing it t least once. Just don't expect it to be as epic as all that. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

Saying that Avatar has just CGI is like saying that Titanic has just water. - Akiva

Titanic could have been a decent movie if about an hour of the useless crap had been taken out. - Joe "Funkasaurus" Pierce

Okay, bad analogy. Some people just aren't as into the technical side of movies or cinematic milestones. Nothing wrong with that. - Akiva

Look, every movie fails if you drill down on it hard enough and long enough. The endeavor is not unlike constructing a modern building - in this case a sky-scraper. I love a 'perfect' character home too, but why not admire each craft work for what it is?! Ok. Got that out of my system. - Micah

failtanium - Will Higgins™

Every Yingtanium deserves a Yangtanium :) - Micah

Micah, that's exactly what I'm saying (3 comments up). Also, Amber, I think that you are selling this quite short when you say "it's pretty outside and free and has a better story." I'm not disagreeing with you exactly, but this movie is honestly visually spectacular. It's not just that it's a "CGI-fest." Yes it's CGI heavy, but this is really the first movie that I've seen with this much CGI that didn't *look* like it was all CGI (and I was really skeptical of this before seeing it). It brings things to life visually that really have no analog in the real world and sells it to your eyes quite effectively. At least it did to me. - Chieze Okoye

I've got a good analogy, I think. Saying that Avatar is just CGI is like saying that these are just pencil drawings or that the first one is just a tiger: http://friendfeed.com/mikerob... (well, assuming they are real, heh) Technically true, but you'd be completely missing the point. - Chieze Okoye

lol, this made me laugh. "I judge people who give this a pass." LOL! It's a movie! ahahahahahahahahaha... Like it, don't like it, disappointed that JC didn't change the world, impressed that he seemed to seamlessly weave the 3D throughout the movie, whatever. I liked it, I had fun, and I'm pretty sure we'll own it at some point, even if the husband hmphed at the unobtainium and the 'Indians' (kind of a silly name). If you're going to spend energy judging someone, at least do it on something that deserves the expenditure. - Bette Cooper

I can't believe I wasted the no energy it took to make a mental note that you have crap taste in movies and don't pay attention to things like story or dialogue, I'll go consider my life's path and where it went wrong now. Or I won't. - Richard Lawler

It very clearly doesn't tell it's story well. Anyone who actually paid attention to what happened in the movie will notice there's no attention given to plot elements like why the evil villain would do any of the things he did at the end of the movie. What Na'vi and human interactions were like before jake got there. The aliens have no individual characters at all. After betraying his new friends and causing the death of their chief and the loss of their home, they not only let him live, but follow him into battle. They don't notice bulldozers approaching home tree until they're 5 feet away. I can go on if you like. This is an absolute crap story, and any "it's a standard story" posturing is evidence that either you didn't pay attention, or you don't want to see what's right in front of you. - Richard Lawler

I think so - ★ Soner Gönül

I call bullshit on this movie and the studios that let it through. No excuse to spend $X million dollars on a bad story that took X years to make and push X new technology to introduce us to something that someone else will take and make good. If you have that length of time to polish it, polish the damn story too! No excuse for bad writing if you've got 4 damn years to make the movie! I won't see it, I don't care what it looks like. If I want to see something amazing, I'll drive to the mountains. - ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift

Oh un-OBTAIN-ium! I get it! That's clever. - Steele Lawman

I call this movie artwork. Its a shame that we don't have silent films anymore so people would STFU about the plot and look at the movie for what it is; a stunning 2.5 hour moving work of art. Remove the words (leave the score) and people might stop freaking out about characters and start paying attention to the pure artistry in the visuals, which is really what the movie is about. - EricaJoy

That was pretty bad, it distracted me from enjoying the shiny every time they mentioned it. Thankfully that was not often. - Lo

Well, it's better than oldcrapium. - Jason Hill

I second EricaJoy's comment. It's a shame that people need to find a negative in a (visiually) nicely made movie. - liladreams

I'm really enjoying how riled up Richard is over this. And I fully agree with him: of all things to take a stand on in life, Avatar's script is definitely where one of refined taste should draw the line. I mean really. How could anyone possibly have an alternative and opposing viewpoint? It's preposterous! - Akiva

As I mentioned previously, JRR Tolkein took 12 years to write LOTR. That was worth it. James Cameron took 15 years to write Avatar. You can do the math. - Melanie Reed

Question, Did Richard take a principled stand on Star Wars Episodes 1 to 3?? - Roberto Bonini

Do I need to? I think there's a 70 minute review on youtube that covers all the points necessary. Some would do well to apply its lessons to this movie. (tell me something about the characters that isn't how they look or what their job is) - Richard Lawler

I havent seen the movie yet Richard. But if its as bad as Star Wars for plot..... - Roberto Bonini

It's better than star wars in that it has a main character and he has some (not much, but some depth to him. the prequels, especially TPM, lack that entirely. If you're interested in the effects it's worth seeing once, but leave your brain at the door. - Richard Lawler

Richard, that YouTube review is awesome but I can easily take the character challenge with Avatar. Even the minor characters in Avatar have more clear, personal definition than the characters in Star Wars (with the exception of Chacon who might as well have been a flight computer). Of course, that might be more derogatory toward Star Wars than it is complimentary toward Avatar; I mean, when you've set the bar so bloody low... - Akiva

The question really is: Can Avatar be considered opera? A simplistic plot can be justified if it lends itself to the grand themes of mythos and opera. Star Wars does that. Can you justify that Avatar does the same? - Melanie Reed

I'd have to see it more than once to even consider such a question. - Akiva

Akiva - beyond the main guy? For example, Grace - she went to stanford and.... what brought her to pandora? what happened, who decided to close the school and/or why? the company brought her to pandora, what was the reasoning at that time? is she (or any of the other scientists) leaving anything behind on earth when they side with the na'vi? - Richard Lawler

It's ironic that the only character that is memorable in the Bourne Trilogy is the main character, seeing as how it's about guy trying to figure out his identity. - Andy Bakun from Android

Richard, that was all explained. She's a botanical expert, the entire planet is full of dangerous flora; that's an easy one. They closed the school when it was made clear that no matter how much they tried to 'civilize' the Na'Vi, it didn't stop them from still attacking the miners so it was seen as a waste of money and time. And it's stated almost immediately before she appears on the screen that she hates people and loves plants from which you can deduce that she didn't leave a damn thing behind to follow her career. What isn't explained, though, why a botanist was the head of the school. - Akiva

Another comparison (defining where to place this film in genre): Compare Avatar and Tron. What do they have in common, each for its day. - Melanie Reed

when did it say when they closed the school? They said "we tried building them a school" they never said when it was closed or why. In fact, they never even actually showed the na'vi attacking the miners, only talked about it.and ok, she hates people, but what about the other scientists on pandora? they all flip sides real quick, no family for any of them? - Richard Lawler

Also, Richard, I think what you're missing here is that this isn't an ensemble movie. It isn't M*A*S*H. It's a science fiction action adventure movie. Deep, Altman-like examination of character isn't required to move the plot forward. Any character development is a side effect of the action and not the other way around. And I repeat, it's a sci-fi action adventure movie. Did you get as equally upset over the fact that the characters aren't really that developed in Alien? Can you tell me Dallas' backstory? What about 2001? What's Bowman's motivation other than simple survival? Where'd he go to college? What did he get on his SATs? Why didn't they tell us anything real about his family? - Akiva

How is it operatic? Is it dealing with large themes: Good vs. Evil. (or are those relative and somewhat gray based on perspective?) Are those clearly defined? Are there three acts (yet)? - Melanie Reed

Does the protagonist clearly know what to do or is he conflicted in the end? - Melanie Reed

Akiva - I don't need to know where he went to college, I do need to know why the characters make the decisions they make. It's never explained why Grace left the na'vi at first and why they're apparently so reluctant to accept her back. None of the na'vi have any individual reactions at all. Evil Guy has no reason to be evil after the battle is clearly lost. He's not fighting for his life, he just goes on a suicidal rampage for no reason. It goes on and on. - Richard Lawler

@Jason read it. - Melanie Reed

both main characters? - Richard Lawler

How is neytiri a main character? We never see her except when she's interacting with jake. - Richard Lawler

Yeah, and Alice in Wonderland is a stupid story because you never see any characters except when they're interacting with Alice. Oy vey already. - Akiva

Now you're lying akiva. I didn't say anything like that. But you wouldn't call them main characters now would you. that was my point. - Richard Lawler

Jason, let me know the part when neytiri talked to anyone without jake present. The movie has one main character. - Richard Lawler

Richard, you do realize that this movie is told entirely through the eyes of Jake Sully, don't you? That's why we rarely see anyone that isn't in the room with him. Hell, the movie tells us that with its opening and closing shots. One eye in the beginning symbolizes a limited view of the world; two eyes at the end reflecting a fuller (but probably not complete) view of the world. In fact, are there ANY scenes without him involved (even if off-camera)? - Akiva

So does the movie have one main character or two. - Richard Lawler

I thought you left jason, if you're still around, you can surely describe how neytiri meets the criteria for a main character in any way. also, we see a lot of things that Jake doesn't see. But of course, I apparently didn't watch the movie. - Richard Lawler

If you can't answer a question without arguing, then I wish you much relaxation on your vacay. - Richard Lawler

@Jason http://www.amazon.com/James-C... | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Plot will tell you. - Melanie Reed

It matters how you define a main character, Richard. For me, a main character is essential to the core of the plot and usually has a lot of screen time. By that definition, Sully, Neytiri, and Guaritch are all main characters. I don't think a character loses 'main' status simply because it doesn't have 'alone time' on-screen. And I've seen some movies where the two main characters never actually share any screen time together at all (The Fifth Element) and a certain popular trilogy of movies where one main character has no screen time whatsoever. - Akiva

Also, I had asked if there were any scenes in which he wasn't involved, not things that he didn't see. - Akiva

Sometimes when a story is told over and over again with no variation, it's because the story is important and most people aren't listening. My guess is that this same story will continue to be told until the underlying problems which draw storytellers to it are addressed. (just a random thought) - Lo

That's weird, because I always thought the main character was the one who experienced things for the audience. Guaritch and Neytiri never have any experiences in the movie except in relation to their affect on jake. That's why he's the main character. The world revolves around him and his experiences - Richard Lawler

Akiva - what you actually said was "told entirely through the eyes of Jake Sully" I inferred you meant saw since you said his eyes and that's what they're usually used for. - Richard Lawler

I think the problem does need to be addressed, I have not yet mated for life with a ten foot blue alien version of zoe saldana. This is an underlying problem that needs to be rectified. - Richard Lawler

@Jason an interesting comment by the Author through a marketing choice, wouldn't you agree? - Melanie Reed

Richard, I meant that more metaphorically. Sully's the Frodo of Avatar; he's the device used to introduce us to the world. And, you're right, the audience is only given one main character to really bond with (although we can empathize with Neytiri and have antipathy toward Guaritch). I also agree that the script's weak but, ultimately, I feel the value of the movie is greater than the sum of its parts. - Akiva

And about your last comment, Richard, Cameron was on The Tonight Show and joking how he had a team dedicated specifically to Neytiri's butt and that it took them nine months to perfect it. - Akiva

Nine months well spent, clearly. It's impossible for me to empathize with neytiri because other than her inexplicable love for jake (he betrays her and is directly responsible for the destruction of her home and death of her father by his inaction of not telling them what's coming and action of giving info to quaritch, this is reason for a quittal on the planet i'm from) I know nothing about her that isn't true for the rest of the aliens.I had to look up antipathy, but I had no reason to dislike quaritch, he seems pragmatic, not evil. Then at the end, he's simply crazy, which is a complete departure. - Richard Lawler

Richard, I think you're on to something. :) - Melanie Reed

I guess this is testament to both Saldana's acting ability and the technical artistry of the film because I got a lot more out of Neytiri than what I suppose was explicit in the script. And, well, love is inexplicable anyway but her attraction to him was two-fold: first, he was different than anyone she had ever met before which made him a 'rebellious bad boy' and that he was tirelessly dedicated to learning everything there was to know about Na'Vi culture and that he was willing to die to do so. And his betrayal was already in place before he fell in love with her and her people; at that time, he didn't really care; it was just a chance for him to be as athletic as possible. And after Hometree goes down, he re-earns her respect (which is probably just as important as girlish love to the Na'Vi, although this is implicit rather than explicit) by becoming like the whatever-it-was-called legend and doing what no other Na'Vi had done since. Again showing he was willing to sacrifice himself for her and her people. - Akiva

I don't see how his willingness to face death is notable, every na'vi we ever see has done exactly the same thing. To her, he, should be nothing special, and yet he gets three second chances at life when should be killed immediately before he ever does anything remarkable. - Richard Lawler

and how much does it suck to be tsu tey, you not only lose your girl to a cripple, you only get to be chief for like 5 minutes before dying in a battle planned by the same guy who took your girl and you'd have been better off killing on sight. - Richard Lawler

That's true but she knows he's not Na'Vi. He's human and STILL willing to die for the Na'Vi. Furthermore, she follows him into battle because of his legendary feat but I don't think she actually truly reconnects with him until she sees him as who he really is for the first time, as a tiny, delicate, little human. - Akiva

Hah, yeah. That guy gets the shit end of the stick from scene one. - Akiva

Anyway, I think a lot of your points are good, Richard, even if I don't agree with them. I clearly got a lot more satisfaction out of the script than you did. Of course, I went in with low expectations and, I suppose, ended up doing most of the heavy lifting in the end. But I'm all right with that. I really liked the movie and I'm looking forward to seeing it again. Would I watch it again without the IMAX 3D, though? Probably not. So I suppose that says a lot, too. - Akiva

I get that, but it doesn't make sense to me, he doesn't really have a lot of options. If he hadn't gone w/ the navi plan from jump, they were gonna kill him anyway right then, his life's been hanging in the balance for a while and she wasn't particularly impressed the first time. - Richard Lawler

Plus, through their unreasonably deep understanding of avatar technology, she knows he isn't really risking his life, he's a "dreamwalker." - Richard Lawler

@Richard: Yes, and for me my inability to commune psychically (or whatever) with plants and have hot tree-of-souls sex is also a problem that needs urgent attention :D - Lo

Richard, a key point in whether something is operatic. Does Sully really have to put his life at risk as say even Neo does in The Matrix? - Melanie Reed

Once he turns his back and they dropship the avatar beds all up in na'vi territory late in the film, yes. But I'm troubled by that because really, what did he have to lose, his human body sucked (though fixable) and his family was dead, of course he falls in love with being a na'vi. The one thing I found satisfactory about the story was the explanation of how he came to be in the avatar program at all. - Richard Lawler

Again Richard, I think you are on to something. There has to be a sacrifice more important than what is supplied here for a true hero to confront. The stakes must be incredibly high. Frodo has this. Neo has this to an extent(He begins a pattern of where we are beginning to lose this clear line in stories). Also, if memory serves, Dances With Wolves never overtly or even really indirectly betrays the Sioux. He is at the outset part of the community that eventually betrays them. But that is never his intention at any time. - Melanie Reed

It's hard to say. After he destroys the cameras, Jake still isn't fighting the army yet. It's only after they realize what happened and lock him up that he takes the fight to them, and at that point, any opportunity to get his legs back and live the human life he wants is probably long gone. - Richard Lawler

I think I'm going to need to see this movie again. Not only was it fun the first time, but it's even more entertaining watching people go off over it. *laughs softly* Merry Christmas! - Bette Cooper