"No not buried. This was over 130 diggs and just disappeared from the front page. Must be some liberal climate alarmist activists running digg. ><"
- pitlord
"This story has been removed from the digg top page! O.O WTF digg?!? Looks like climate scientists aren't the only ones willing to manipulate data to forward their agenda. >.>"
- pitlord
Truth is, the debate of whether global warming "exists" is misdirecting people from the important issue. It doesn't really matter what the past has been or how much we should "blame" on humans. The important thing is human beings now have the power to influence the sustainability and health of our environment. That means we can choose to take care of the world or we can choose to treat it like a trash heap. All we have to do is decide and act. Everything else is crosstalk.
- Ross Bennett
Those people jumping on Leo for driving a Mustang are missing the point. What's important is his total pollutant footprint. How much pollutants does he pump out period? Is the guy who drives to the store 5 times a day in a smaller car more of a polluter? Why is everyone hung up on CO2 when there are so many other lovely chemicals to worry about pumped out by autos? The whole climate change debate is very sterile. Pumping out dioxins and hydrocarbons is bad period.
- Fergal Barry
I agree with Jerry Pournelle. With what we've learned about the fudging of the data, it's time to revisit the global warming issue and see where REAL science leads us.
- Don Smith
And damn those Ice Age men for their pollution!
- Craig Eddy
I wonder, did Leo ever apologize for insulting Callie Lewis about her opposing view on the topic? And why didn't he lambaste Jerry the same way?
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Let's do something about it! Um, what?
- jeff hammond
Simple, nuclear power. GreenPeace be damned.
- Itachi
Yes, a Mustang AND the Escape. But besides that you work for a conservative radio station. Surely if Rush spoke with you, there would be sparks. Especially after this Climate Gate situation. You Leo of all people should know the truth. Those emails and source code were not stolen by elite black hat hackers who used brute force and password crackers. They were on an OPEN FTP SERVER. And...
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- Oren Gravenhorst
Carbon in the atmosphere, even in very small numbers, effects the natural cooling system of the earth. The Greenhouse Effect if you will. While the Earth has it's own cycle of cooling and heating, the question is what effect are we having on accelerating this cycle and how long until conditions become such that we can not support the current population. Here are the 4 major things we as humans do to increase the carbon levels.
- Johnny Worthington
4. We cut down trees and use the land for other things besides growing a tree (trees suck up carbon when they grow)
- Johnny Worthington
Now those 4 things really hit their stride when the Industrial Revolution kicked in. If data exists that shows a spike in carbon levels post-IR, then it's confirmed. The only question left then is to what level our actions are contributing and what we do to stop it.
- Johnny Worthington
All of your points are correct, Johnny. So, humans are contributing to the natural occurrence of the current warming cycle. This is not refutable. By how much? 10%? That's the discussion.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Actually, the discussions I am hearing also include "The Earth is not warming", "Carbon has no effect on increasing the greenhouse effect" and "Humans do not effect climate change at all". Really, I want us to be all wrong and Global Warming to not be truthful, but unless the 'skeptics' can cast aside the radicals from their side as well, the discussion goes no where.
- Johnny Worthington
Good summary of the key issues and points.
- Sean McBride
Observation of the release of carbon into the system does not prove that the release of the carbon has any effect on the system. You have not even begun to account for the system's uses for and adaptation to various carbon levels over time. The bottom line is to create a new world government, like the Copenhagen treaty proposes, in the name of ecology has nothing to do with energy independence and everything to do with power and money.
- pitlord
Pitlord. Photons from the sun strikes the land. The land warms and emits an infrared photon. This IR photon strikes particles (like carbon dioxide molecules) and, as it is captured, sets up a flexing motion in the molecule. Soon afterwards, the molecule emits an infrared photon that travels to the ground. After emission, the molecule stops flexing and returns to its original state. Now...
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- Johnny Worthington
I'm no Greenie BTW... I just listened in science class.
- Johnny Worthington
If you accept these facts, then it's clear that increasing carbon dioxide levels means increasing temperatures, which means rising sea levels, severe changes in weather patterns, and catastrophic changes to various ecosystems. Regardless of the exact magnitude of our role in this, don't you agree that these things are worth trying to prevent or at least mitigate? Pumping even more CO2 into the atmosphere doesn't seem to be a good way of doing that.
- Victor Ganata
Victor, I agree. The Earth is going to eventually throw us off the edge of the cliff... I just don't want to step on the accelerator. I am also happy to be wrong... REALLY. I take no joy in possibly being right about climate change.
- Johnny Worthington
The greenhouse effect is basic science even apart from the question of climate change. Planets with a heavy atmosphere trap most of the sun's heat; planets with little atmosphere reflect most of the heat back into space. If you change the composition of the atmosphere (either by adding greenhouse gases or blowing a hole in it with CFCs), the earth's climate with change accordingly.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
The way some skeptics put it, you would think that even that basic science were in doubt. I mean, if the earth is going into a warming cycle, regardless of our own role in it, are we really just going to let coastal cities drown? Fertile fields turn into dust bowls? You would think it would be something we'd want to do something about, even if it were a totally "natural" occurrence.
- Victor Ganata
Sequestering and scrubbing of SO2 which was done by the Clean Air Act and the EPA in 1990 has actually increased CO2 thereby contributing to global warming. The following is from a Jonah Goldberg thought experiment====> In the great scheme of trade-offs in the history of humanity, never has there been a better one than trading a tiny amount of global warming for a massive amount of...
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- Eric Logan
To be frank, Eric, the people who got that 1800% GDP growth aren't the ones who climate change will effect greatly. I bet if you ask some of the poor island nations who will be under water in a few decades, or the African nations who will be cast into drought and famine, they'd tell you that's a shitty bargain.
- Johnny Worthington
The fact that economic growth would necessarily slow down by dropping emissions is a false assumption, though, particularly given the rate of technological change. If we had focused on energy sources that didn't have high CO2 emissions from the start, maybe we'd have a safe reliable grid running almost entirely on nuclear fission by now. We might also have totally different forms of transportation. The refusal to innovate is what dooms economies, really.
- Victor Ganata
Johnny, how do future generations NOT benefit from a prosperous economy? There is no proof that any nations will be "underwater" anymore than there was proof in the 70's that the earth would turn into a giant ice cube. First you say you'd like to see more rational discussion then you make emotional appeals based on unproven claims.
- pitlord
Pitlord, my statement was is reaction to a point about "But hey, the West got rich"
- Johnny Worthington
Let's be honest, if Shell, BP or Exxon could find out a way to be making money off green energy, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
- Johnny Worthington
It's more like "but hey, the west made enormous leaps and bounds of advancements that will allow future generations to live longer, happier, healthier lives. And still nobody has conclusively proven that anthropogenic climate change is a reality.
- pitlord
"And still nobody has conclusively proven that anthropogenic climate change is a reality". We burn carbon, it changes the chemical makeup of the atmosphere. By a little or a lot, doesn't matter... it does.
- Johnny Worthington
Johnny, correlation does not equal causation.
- pitlord
Pitlord, You so have a spot on my Dance Card you so funni
- Rasmus Lauridsen
Shell, BP and Connoco have found a way to get rich from green energy it is called Cap and Trade the exact solution presently being strong armed by the Congress by this new EPA ruling. There are lots of peer reviewed studies about the E.U. ETS which is a presently operating carbon exchange. Instead of encouraging innovation the U.S. has been pushing moonshine/ ethanol as a solution because it is politically expedient despite the fact that it take as much energy to produce as it stores.
- Eric Logan
OK Pitlord, let me ask you. What evidence would you be willing to accept as proof that anthropogenic climate change is occurring. Seriously, what level of detail would you need? Would you accept modeling? How much data, what time span? What type of peer review do you require? Should Oprah be able to explain it? Seriously... I can throw hundreds of scientific papers at you but you can just simply wave them away. Tell me what you want to see to change your mind.
- Johnny Worthington
Eric, I agree with that. Ethanol and other 'green' fuels often take natural resources and forest/farming land (don't get me started of volatilization). I think it is also important to understand there is not one magic bullet. It is a culture change. We have to do a number of things all at once, not just fill up the car with a new fuel.
- Johnny Worthington
Also Pitlord, "correlation does not equal causation" is fine, but the Greenhouse Effect is actually something. It's how we live on Earth right now. It's a long and established thing discovered by Joseph Fourier in 1824, first reliably experimented on by John Tyndall in 1858, and first reported quantitatively by Svante Arrhenius in 1896. It's basic. By adding to the cocktail, we change the drink. Simple logic.
- Johnny Worthington
Eric lost me at "Jonah Goldberg thought experiment." (Hah!) In any case, controlling some types of particulate emissions does not increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, it simply removes a substance that was masking their full effect. (And it wasn't even doing a very good job of that, since the climate was already warming before particulate matter was controlled.) There are good...
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- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Ethanol in particular is an egregious example where massive government subsidies are spent on a technology that does not solve the problem and produces 54 % more CO2 than gasoline.
- Eric Logan
I actually agree on ethanol; it's harmful to the environment in multiple ways. But that's our agricultural lobby at work.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Eric, while not totally scientific, a local TV station did a Mythbusters-eque experiment by running two identical cars, one on unleaded and one on 10% ethonal, in a controlled setting. Not only was the 10% less ecconomical (needed refueling more often) but it was so bad that the 'eccological savings' were worse that running the 100% unleaded car. Now, that's a FAIL, but it shouldn't be pointed to as a reason that this whole thing is BS.
- Johnny Worthington
Agreed, It is an example where government solutions do not have desired effects and are subject to political pressure or whims.
- Eric Logan
Of course government action is subject to political pressure. That's democracy at work. It's also why we still haven't had any significant response to climate change in the U.S. even though it has been a known problem for 20 years.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
John, There are also more recent reports that sea water scrubbing of SO2 in shipping which is estimated to be 2% of global CO2 emissions. Does in fact release additional CO2 for every 1 KG SO2 scrubbed 2.75 KG of CO2 are produced.. Krystallon a subsidiary of B.P. produces the scrubbers they deny this. Erik Ranheim from Intertanko an independent group produced the report. There are new Cleantech ventures that claim to have new processes that solve this problem nothing implemented presently.
- Eric Logan
The thing is, SO2 has far more obvious effects on the human body than CO2 does--if you lived in L.A. during the 1980s, you probably know exactly what SO2 can do to you. So if I had to choose between increased levels of SO2 and increased levels of CO2, it would be a pretty easy choice to make. That said, even if scrubbing SO2 results in an increase in CO2 levels, there's no reason why we can't try to mitigate it by decreasing CO2 emissions elsewhere.
- Victor Ganata
This company claims to have a solution, the temporary increase in acidity of the seawater self regulating back to an alkaline state is the natural process that Intertanko claims emits additional CO2 http://cleantech.com/news...
- Eric Logan
Johnny, to answer your question if I knew what experiment would provide the data to conclusively answer the question of what effect is mankind having on the climate I would either be up for a Nobel Prize or floating face down in the East River. The question is irrelevant because we both agree that it will benefit us all to pursue every avenue of clean alternative energy sources. Where...
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- pitlord
I also think that giving government yet another opportunity to abridge our human rights for their own ill gotten gain in the name of unresolved scientific problems is a huge mistake.
- pitlord
Pitlord, I would love for that to happen... except existing private enterprises like Big Oil have some say politically in the research and develop of such technologies. A lot of private research and develop these days are funded by government tax breaks and grants. If Mr Oil doesn't want to loose money, he can lean on Mr Politician to cut funding. The difference is, it's a lot easier for a politician to say no if the public (and world) mood backs his position.
- Johnny Worthington
Blatant disinformation and lies casual observers all over will repeat this lie as if it is the gospel. Small wonder the polarization continues unabated. The process is presently designed to marginalize dissent.
- Eric Logan
All of this misses the point: a substantial majority of the world's leading climate scientists are still convinced, on the basis of the empirical data, that anthropogenic global warming is a serious problem facing the human race, and possibly a catastrophic problem. Global warming deniers are being crushed by the weight of the best science -- this is why they tend to flail around verbally and hurl a great deal of verbal abuse. They can't debate the science.
- Sean McBride
Did you even read this post Sean ? Can you point to anything factual Al Gore has said here in reference to this topic ?
- Eric Logan
The climate change alarmists are not willing to have their data studied or questioned. They are not willing to allow any debate and their only response to questions or challenges is to cast aspersions on the questioner and stifle debate. If anthropogenic climate change actually is a reality then their should be no resistance to testing the science that lead to that conclusion. This article is a prime example of this, via the head climate alarmist, Al Gore.
- pitlord
Pitlord -- you are making hysterical charges that are out of touch with reality. Discussion and debate about climate change are for the most part conducted openly in peer-reviewed scientific journals. The process is transparent and democratic, but meritocratic -- your science needs to be first-rate to acquire traction and impact. In an earlier exchange you were unable to mention even a...
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- Sean McBride
Sean, again you choose to try and turn the discussion away from the topic at hand (i.e. Al Gore's lies and evasions) and toward a character assassination of the O.P. I'm sorry to see that you are unable to debate the topic based on the facts. Better luck next time.
- pitlord
Pitlord -- you are a religious fundamentalist, and all religious fundamentalists strike me as irrational children who are allergic to and irritated by science (that is why so many of them are creationists). You can't debate the science of AGW, and people like you decisively lost this debate years ago. That is why you are also going to lose the policy debate on AGW -- the best science is not on your side.
- Sean McBride
Eric -- Gore got it wrong about the dates of the emails, and that issue is entirely irrelevant to the consensus view among climate change experts on AGW. Major grasping at straws in this line of argument.
- Sean McBride
Sean - the e-mail assuredly do not fit the characterization of the most recent being ten years old. The ones I have examined from Phil Jones in reference to there being a cooling trend that may continue until 2020 where he expresses the hope that his colleague is wrong so he can wipe the smug grins of his detractors faces are from Jan 2009.
- Eric Logan
It gives the impression to those that are uniformed that these are very old e-mails when nothing could be further from the truth. I also do not believe it to be an innocuous oversight. The most damning e-mails that have been highlighted are all recent.
- Eric Logan
You've got to look at the big picture, not just these emails; the overall scientific consensus. The AGW model is still dominant by far in the climate science community. If magazines like Nature, Science, Scientific American and New Scientist begin to report a substantive shift in that consensus, then maybe you will gain some traction. But not until then.
- Sean McBride
scariest thing is that there are people foolish enough to believe that accusations of falsified records on climate change actually means that climate change is not real. the willingness to engage in wishful thinking is killing economies and people. history shows this has happened before and those who call themselves "climate skeptics" are contributing to the problem.
- MikeAmundsen
Science isn't ruled by the "consensus", especially when it has been proven "science" has been politicized. If you actually look you will find enough so-called "scientists" that disagree with the Global Warming theory. The problem is, it has turned into a cult-like following where nobody can dare challenge their theories.
- Spencer
Sean, thankfully my religion does not preclude the theory of evolution because evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive. Your assertion that the climate debate ended indicates either ignorance or duplicity on your part. Objective scientists are, in fact, appalled at the liberal attempts to side-step the scientific method for political and economic gain. They have, in fact,...
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- pitlord
But the real issue is, in light of the East Anglia CRU emails, how can you even uphold the integrity of peer-reviewed journals? See: http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media... Especially as they relate to climate change
- pitlord
@p: we've been here before. you know that the actions of these scientists, while a key focus in the _politics_ of climate change, are a sideshow in the _science_ of it. any attempts to hold these idiots and their transgressions up in support of climate skepticism is either disingenuous, manipulative or both.
- MikeAmundsen
Mike, are you saying that the admission that the climate science research was manipulated to support a preferred conclusion has no bearing on the science itself?
- pitlord
p: sure am. the facts are the facts. cherry-picking them to fit a preferred outcome is a waste of time. scientists who "shade the truth" for some political end are a waste of space. the planet will continue to heat up, continue to run out of fossil fuels, continue to run out of fresh water no matter what lies scientists use to bolster their own argument. that some scientists are...
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- MikeAmundsen
That's the smartest argument I have heard. Now if you can just get the IPCC to agree to stop funding and covering up for scientists involved in this type of unscientific chicanery. We may have a chance for a functioning actual scientific peer review process.
- Eric Logan
@Eric: yeah, scientific peer-review has been screwed up for decades - i suspect it's been even longer. history is littered w/ self-serving interests quashing contrary scientific work. i suspect IPCC is just as much a victim as the black-balled scientists who can't get funding for their work when it goes against the thinking of the committees responsible for review. like so many other...
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- MikeAmundsen
Mike++ :) Made several points I intended to make for me.
- Sean McBride
<threadjack> If you are unfamiliar, Mike is astute, eloquent and quick-witted in a good discussion. If you are not subscribed to him, you should be</threadjack>
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Mike and Mark -- two of my Friendfeed favorites. And Anthony Citrano (and quite a few others). Generally in the progressive libertarian or libertarian progressive camp, as I read them -- difficult to pigeonhole by conventional political categories because they are actually trying to think critically and creatively about the big issues.
- Sean McBride
<love-fest>SB: how about pragmati-gressive-tarian? another handle i've been given is opinionated bastard. MVB has his handle setting properly, too[g]</love-fest>
- MikeAmundsen
It's easy. You start by not believing anything anyone says and work from there.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Add Johnny to "The List" Sean, although he doesn't engage often enough in a rousing political discussion.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Mark -- I visited Johnny's link above and was impressed by his commonsense summary of CO2 issues. I am going to bump him higher up on my list of Friendfeeders to pay attention to. Compared to Sarah Palin's understanding of science issues, he's an Einstein. :)
- Sean McBride
Is the ego-centric circle jerk over yet? Please use the provided tissue to clean up your mess. >.>
- pitlord
"And in case any of the teens got bored, GLSEN was also kind enough to include a list of the local gay bars in the booklet distributed to high school students." Are you Fing kidding me?!?! Our President appointed this man to be in charge of our kid's schools?!?!?! WTF is wrong with the people who support this crap?
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
That is really twisted. I hope this is not true.
- Eric Logan
It is definitely true, they have recorded audio, photos and flyers that were handed out to teenagers who attended the event! We have to remove these freaks from office, like yesterday!
- pitlord
"It's not that some of these scientists were sitting on taxpayer-sourced slush funds worth tens of millions of dollars each, for an industry total of somewhere close to US$100 billion, whilst their supporters raised merry-hell about Exxon sponsoring skeptic research to the tune of a few million"
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
I've never seen a service offering year books specifically. I would start checking with websites like kodak, whcc.com, dotphoto.com, memorybook.com and jostens.com If I didn't see what I was looking for I would call or email those companies and ask if they have any suggestions.
- pitlord
I'm in favor of it if it frees up regular tax income for dealing with the Depression, making infrastructure improvements, creating jobs, etc.
- Spidra Webster
After watching the video I'm convinced the spiral pattern was being projected up onto the clouds from earth. How or why is anybody's guess. Either way this is not a UFO.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
This looks like a long exposure of a large spotlight shining up into the sky from behind the mountain and being moved in a spiral while the camera's shutter is open.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., ranking Republican on the House Select Committee for Energy Independence and Global Warming, said Tuesday he is going to attend the Copenhagen conference to inform world leaders that despite any promises made by President Obama, no new laws will be passed in the United States until the 'scientific fascism' ends." Good for him. I will definitely consider moving to Wisconsin.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"Scientific fascism" = science that Sensenbrenner doesn't vaguely understand.
- Sean McBride
"This scandal, however, is not merely about homosexual behavior; it is about promoting sex between children and adults - and it's time for President Obama to make clear that abetting such illegal perversion has no place in his administration." AMEN!
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"We will have to see what our policy responses are and to examine whether we could increase the marginal cost of flying beyond two to three flights a year." This would only be a hardship for the poor and middle class. Of course, the politicians will be exempt, I'm sure.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"The president's announcement is further proof that TARP has morphed from an emergency injection of liquidity to thaw frozen credit markets into a $700 billion revolving slush fund to promote the Democrats' political, social and economic agenda"
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
I live in a house with no insulation in the walls, so when it reaches 28 like it did last night, it is literally the mid-to-high 30's INSIDE MY HOUSE. I'll grow a pair when I have the same level playing field as everyone else.
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
I've lived in different parts of the US. It is worse to be in a normally warmer area in a house with little to no insulation. In areas where it usually drops below freezing, the houses hold their heat easily and people already have heavy winter coats.
- Dave Friedel
I'm a Jew and I'm not offended, but I don't speak for everyone. I wonder what the reaction would be to a tablet pc named Mooslim. As in, "I didn't buy the original Moo but I love the new MooSlim." >.>
- pitlord
@pitlord, joojoo or joujou is a french/patois slang word meaning "karma" or "luck". has nothing to do with Jews. No one will confuse this for anything Jewish related in the same way no one confuses jujitsu as some sort of Jewish martial art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Khürt Williams
"…world leaders will next week be asked to sign an agreement that hands more power to rich countries and sidelines the UN's role in all future climate change negotiations." Oh, don't worry about that, we just need to eliminate the U.N. to make way for the New World government we're creating. You know, no more borders or churches… All that John Lennon crap. >.> I feel fantastic and I'm still alive.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"…emails leaked from a British university have done nothing to undermine the United Nations' view that climate change is accelerating due to humans." Ban Ki-moon's speech has done nothing to undermine the reasonable person's view that the U.N. has become a mouth piece for third world terrorist regimes who could care less about humanity, never mind the climate.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"If we succeed in winning health insurance reform we will have breached the gates of the status quo. We will demonstrate that fundamental change is possible." "Change" does not mean "tyranny."
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"The Nevada Democrat, in a sweeping set of accusations on the Senate floor, also compared health care foes to those who opposed women's suffrage and the civil rights movement -- even though it was Sen. Strom Thurmond, then a Democrat, who unsuccessfully tried to filibuster the Civil Rights Act of 1957 and it was Republicans who led the charge against slavery."
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
Fistgate II: High School Students Given ‘Fisting Kits’ At Kevin Jennings’ 2001 GLSEN Conference #nobama This is one of our President's men - http://biggovernment.com/2009...
"During the 2000 conference, workshop leaders led a “youth only, ages 14-21″ session that offered lessons in “fisting” a dangerous sexual practice. During another workshop an activist asked 14 year-old students, “Spit or swallow?… Is it rude?” The unbelievable audio clip is posted here."
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet