Well said. I love my Saturn Aura. It's as good as any other car I've owned in its price category (and my dad loves Toyotas, my brother owns a Honda, and my wife has a BMW so the Scobles have a good variety of cars). The Ford Flex I was loaned was a great car, albeit is too big and only got 17 MPG on average (which is good for an SUV). - Robert Scoble

While I don't think American cars are total junk, I am nowhere near willing to risk $40K and 5 years on it. The shocking thing is that they price their cars as much as their Japanese counterparts. That is just insane! The American manufacturers need to take the Hyundai route... sell them cheap and put a wicked sweet warranty on them. Then we could talk... - John Denver

John: the problem with US automakers is the labor costs and historical costs (pensions, health care, etc) are MUCH higher than in other countries. You really need to visit China to understand just how nice American workers have it. Very little pollution. Decent healthcare. Non-crowded cities. etc. So, when you say "lower prices to same as Koreans" then you really need to understand the impact of what you're asking for. More offshoring of jobs to countries where they mistreat their citizens. - Robert Scoble

Yep, spot on. Brilliant post Erin - Mo Kargas

Chris: my Saturn is 10x better than any American rental car I've ever gotten my hands on. Not even close. This is part of the reason why US brands have poor brands here: because they sell their cheapest products to the car rental companies. - Robert Scoble

Fords of old were bad. So were the rest. People don't realize how the Big 3 have changed. Which is exactly why I wrote the post - Erin @queenofspain

if the problem is not the cars, not the innovation, not the sales level, then what is the problem? pensions? healthcare? union job-padding? if so, then the auto makers shouldn't get my tax $$$. if the problem is legacy costs, then let's solve the problem - not give the auto-makers billions to keep making the same mistakes. - MikeAmundsen

they had started to turn it around, correcting many of the issues with quality and innovation. the problem Mike is the economy. - Erin @queenofspain

@Erin: yeah, econ has knocked them down, but they were pretty wobbly already. do they want a 'bridge loan' until the economy gets better? don't think so. UAW has to own up to a lot of this, too. i can't recall another industry that is still around that has this level of feather-bedding. finally, much of the legacy cost is due to no national healthcare and lame pension (SocSec) plan in the US. whole country has to own up to that one. - MikeAmundsen

Well, I've purchased Toyotas for most of my life and would again because they just keep going. I had a Daewoo which wasn't bad and now I have a Saturn Vue (though the engine is a Honda) which I absolutely love - but Saturn is modeled after Japanese automakers. US automakers suffer from two things - high overhead/labor and poor product line marketing and foresight. Quality - still an issue in my mind, whether it's reported or perceived. - AJ Kohn

I disagree. Auto industry takes care of it's workers - something I hold in high regard and should be a priority for all american industries. - Erin @queenofspain

@Erin: i appreciate the sentiment about auto industry and workers, but clearly, the industry has not taken care of them. to allow the companies to get this bad off - for this long - is not taking care. and i still do not see good reasons for this nation to expect each business to continue to shoulder the burden of healthcare and pension for workers when all other industrialized nations have already relieved their industries of this cost. - MikeAmundsen

someone recently remarked that if the money went toward helping pay off our mortgages, people might be inclined to go spend on the economy. While possibly sounding simplistic, the principle is not unlike the Jubilee year, when all things reverted back to the original family owners. All family property was returned to each family, free and clear. Not unlike shutting down and rebooting with a clean, rebuilt drive. - Melanie Reed

Don't get me started on mortgages/foreclosures. If you bought too much house, you lose it an learn a hard tough lesson. The automakers are frankly in the same boat. If your family is counting on you (personal, or employees), it's up to you to make smart decisions and be accountable when you screw up. The only way these guys get a *loan* - no freebies - is serious green standards. - AJ Kohn

@AJ: i'm w/ you. i was just thinking that i might be OK w/ offering auto-makers a loan (or loan guarantee) targeted directly at a new line of vehicles. but the probl they have now is that they can't last long enough to implement a new car line. what a mess. - MikeAmundsen

they haveeeeeeeeeeeeee new vehicle lines coming. green ones. they have more hybrids than honda and toyota! the last time the feds loaned the auto industry money it got 660 million dollar profit. - Erin @queenofspain

@MikeAmundsen Disagree. GM has the Volt waiting in the wings; a loan would get it into mfgr. It's game-changing tech.The whole "do we, don't we thing" smells like union-busting to me. If we don't bail out, we'll be stuck with the much larger pension bill/liabilities anyway. I'd rather see them get back on their feet. - Karoli

@Erin: They need line replacement, not new lines. And I'm talking 50% hybrid by 2011 or something like that. Or no line with a MPG under 20. In my mind, US automakers went overboard on brand extension. Model mania. It's good when the models work, even marginally, but if they don't you get caught out with sunk costs and marketing dollars out the window. - AJ Kohn

chris white, hey as long as you're okay owning 50B or so in pension liabilities, no prob with letting them go under. But if the govt takes those on (which will be required in a bankruptcy), particularly at a point where the market is at an all-time low, it will drive our deficit up with no hope of sharing in the profits if they turn around (like Chrysler did, once upon a time). - Karoli

Chris your money is going to be involved one way or the other. Many of the experts say you could lose MORE if you don't give them the bridge loan. - Erin @queenofspain

Unfortunately, selling a huge number of high quality cars is only part of the equation. You still have to achieve an appropriate level of profitability to support remaining debt & ongoing capex requirements. These bailout numbers seem woefully inadequate to address the entire equation. The hole is much deeper than 25b. - Mark Schulz

@Karoli: the Volt? sounds familiar, yeah:"Who Killed the Electric Car" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...]. and, if the Volt is all set, then what is the 25B for - GM alone? Ford/Chrysler just looking for some extra pocket change? - MikeAmundsen

@Mark: i agree. all this bailout talk is very superficial. the banks are gonna suck up more than 700B, too. - MikeAmundsen

Chris, you have made my point: in the Hebrew economy, when property was sold out to "foreign" investors, in that case, another tribe, they were required by law to give it back. Gentlemen, no one is exempt from hardship no matter how smart an investor they are. Time and tide. That is why the law was structured in its mercy. - Melanie Reed

In my mind, the crux of this argument is the free market versus protectionism. If we truly believe in the free market, then the auto companies should go down. However, in the long run, US companies are always going to get undercut by cheaper producer nations, and our future looks rather grim in that light. As a side note, how does Germany do it? Their workers enjoy great benefits, and they manage to make superior desirable cars at the same time ... - Nadine Schaeffer

"Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check." - Mitt Romney http://www.nytimes.com/2008... - Alan Le