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Jeff Goodman

Barney Frank Responds To Nazi Question: "Vile, Contemptible Nonsense" - http://www.youtube.com/watch...

August 18 from Facebook - Comment - Like - Share

RevDev liked this

Steven Perez to Steven's feed, US Politics

Dear birthers: This is a typical birth certificate, issued by the state of Illinois. Note that it looks NOTHING like the original. BECAUSE NO ONE GIVES A RAT'S ASS. Up Yours, Me.

July 29 - Comment - Like - Share

Dante Rose Pleiades, Ethan, Phil G and 47 other people liked this

If it's good enough for an employer, then STFU. Seriously, I can't believe we're having this conversation. If the state says that a document is a birth certificate, then it's a birth certificate. - Steven Perez

67 more comments

The more people talk about these ridiculous birthers, the more attention is drawn to their cause. They don't care about the facts or reality, just the buzz they create. - Mo Kargas

With all due respect, you're not the President of the USA. - Mistletoe Glen

Bunneh 2016! - Ayşe E.

No, but according to this piece of paper, I could be. END OF STORY. - Steven Perez

Yeah, fuck you, you fucking idiots who think that our President isn't a citizen. Peace! - Alex Scoble

While I don't particularly care myself, I would dispute your assertion that no one (cares). The fact is obvious that there are (perhaps deranged, but still vocal) people there who care very much. You can make yourself sound like an idiot by claiming no one cares, but that doesn't make it true. - Mistletoe Glen

I'm even afraid to ask...but what did I miss? - Joel Robert Perez

All right, Glen. NO SANE PERSON CARES. Better? - Steven Perez

By attacking the rationality of the person raising the argument, you're attempting to deflect the argument itself. However, it simply shows that you're ignoring it, and thus giving (IMHO) false credence to it. Better to address the issue than to simply call names. - Mistletoe Glen

Are you actually saying that you agree with the birthers, Glen? - Steven Perez

um...according to the rant, he didn't - Joel Robert Perez

As I've said before elsewhere, Steve, no, I don't. I think Obama is fully the legitimate president of the USA. I'm merely pointing out the fact that, if you use an ad hominem attack instead of addressing the issues raised, you've effectively given the argument to the other side. If I said, "I believe A to be true," and your response is, "only insane people believe A," then you haven't done anything to address the merits of my statement, effectively giving it silent affirmation. - Mistletoe Glen

Because I'll tell you what this is about Glen: it's about overturning an election. The birthers couldn't care less where Obama was born. He could have been born on the steps of the Capitol building, and he would still not be their president. You don't like the man? Fine. But to try and rededine the meaning of "is", just to to lessen the pain of a lost election - that's a coward's way. - Steven Perez

I'm sick and tired of both sides of the political spectrum thinking that, by calling the other side names, they've effectively addressed the issue. - Mistletoe Glen

And you know something else, Glen? Their argument deserves every bit of scorn and derision I can muster. Because the majority of these clowns are fools. I have no respect either for them or their goofball, half-baked ideas. - Steven Perez

If that's how you want our country to work, Steven, then you deserve what you get. - Mistletoe Glen

How would you like this argument to work, Glen? They've gotten the truth and ignored it, many many times. At some point you gotta cut your losses and say "some fucktards are just never going to accept the truth for what it is and ergo they are fucking asshole losers". - Alex Scoble

How much more can this issue be addressed? How much more proof can a person give than a birth certificate issued by the state of birth AND supporting evidence from a newspaper of record? The only way these people will believe he is a citizen is if we build a time machine and take them back so they can see little O crowning. If I believed so strongly that oranges were blue, despite being... more... - invariant - farewell FF

No answer will serve them, Glen. NONE. Nothing short of Barack Obama leaving office will ever satisfy them, and since they chose the most inane way of doing so (a make-believe loophole, instead of finding some sort of crime), they deserve every bit of name-calling they get. No, I have no respect for the lot of them - or anyone who propagates their craziness on any grounds. - Steven Perez

I don't think a rational discussion is going to happen tonight, so I'll wish you all well and go listen to the rest of "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" audiobook. - Mistletoe Glen

Guess what, Glen? On this topic, you won't have a rational discussion - because one side believes that the president of the United States isn't an American. - Steven Perez

Steven Perez is REAL!? DYSP - Nicholas Kreidberg

Mark, yes you must provide proof of legal right to work in the country (fulfilled by birth certificate, green card, visa, etc.) when you start a job here in the US. EDIT: Maybe? I have had to for my jobs at least. - invariant - farewell FF

Mark: if you sign up with a temp agency, you generally do. Most do, some don't. A passport works, too. (Which begs the question - does Barack Obama have a passport? Because one of the forms of ID for getting a passport is - wait for it - a birth certificate.) - Steven Perez

Don't you have to have a passport to leave the country? Even if you're the POTUS, I don't think you just get to pass on through w/o ID - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

wow, interesting side topic. I've had 7 jobs in my life, in the state of illinois, I've never once had to show my birth certificate. - Adam Turetzky

The State Department takes the same birth certificate as proof of American citizenship to issue a passport. If it's certified by the state, it's accepted as an original. - Kenya

I've had a LOT of jobs. Never had to show a birth cert. I think a DL and SSN imply a birth cert. Seems logical to me. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Well, I did say you have to provide proof of legal right to work-SSN or DL are also obviously valid. Nevertheless, I retract my original comment. - invariant - farewell FF

I had to get a new job a couple of months ago. I had to find my birth certificate and a id. - Shawn aka ringking

Once I got my passport, I never needed to show my birth certificate again. - Steven Perez from IM

only ppl i know who had to show their passport or birth cert were either PR aliens or applying for work with a defence contractor...or telecom, lately. - Joe Silence

I think we have arrived at a valid point. You can't have valid ID w/o showing someone a birth cert in the first place, right? So, implying Obama has no birth cert also implies he has no ID whatsoever. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

If you have a social security card, you won't have to show a birth certificate for employment. - Kenya

I'm looking at the I-9 form that employers have to fill out to verify eligibility to work in the United States. There's a form called Certification of Birth Abroad that the State Department issues. Not one birther has claimed that such a thing exists for Obama. - Kenya

I used my Illinois freshly printed birth certificate to reenter the US from Canada because I didn't have a passport. - Andy Bakun from Android

LOOOOOL - Myrna

What is all this "birthers" crap? Some idiot the other day here said "I bet you are a birther too".. and I got no idea WTF they are on about lol Yeah.. I was born.. like the rest of us lol. :o) - Rob Sellen :o)

Rob: "Birthers" is the collective name given to the right-wing element of Americans who want to find any piddling pathetic little excuse to support their racism and/or zealous political leanings; those who refuse to believe Obama is American and so shouldn't be President (though if Arnie was ever in a position to represent them, well that would be different of course.) - Mark H

I see... so those who said that to me are DUMB seeing as I am not even an American lol. ;o) Thanks for explaining that for me. :o) - Rob Sellen :o)

DYSP: But look at the kerning! And the lack of EXIF information! It's obviously counterfeit! - Jim Norris

Birthers believe in a conspiracy, it almost impossible to convince someone who believes in a conspiracy that they are wrong, because anything you say against their belief they will see as apart of the conspiracy. The one thing you don't do is give them a voice in the main stream media as if they have a valid point. - Kim Landwehr

I agree with Kim to a point, though the nature of conspiracy theories is that such disregard helps reinforce the story for true believers: "Of course it's true; that's /why/ the media is afraid to talk about it!" - Andrew C

I guess my point is that when it comes to the Birther, your in a no win situation, no matter what you do or say, its going to reinforce their belief +1 Andrew C - Kim Landwehr

LIFE is one big conspiracy. ;o) - Rob Sellen :o)

Never really followed much of this during the election, but if it turned out Obama wasn't born in the US, then what? Change the Constitutional requirement? - Kevin Whalen

If you are gonna change your constitution it will be worthless... can't change things on a whim and expect people to trust it. - Rob Sellen :o)

What?!? You mean the Bill of Rights makes the Constitution worthless?!? No wonder it's all f'ed up!! Anyway, there's no need for a constitutional amendment since Obama was born in Hawaii, and Arnold Schwarzenegger wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell for the presidency even with an amendment ever since he destroyed the state of California. - Victor Ganata

I'm just glad I'm Canadian where back in the day it was cool that our prime minister was a playboy. (no offense) - Nathalie, Dreamer of FF

Kevin, no, we don't change our Constitution! (However, judges have 'interpreted' the Constitution in a way that precisely meets their needs/agendas since the framers created it. Not change. Interpret ,-) - Jess

Actually, we do. That's what an amendment is: the act of amending or correcting; a statement that is added to or revises or improves a proposal or document (a bill or constitution etc.) http://www.google.com/search... - Steven Perez from IM

And whether or not the Constitution should be amended is a moot point. The document has been produced; it's not the Congress' job to rewrite the laws of reality for a few racist conspiracy nuts. - Steven Perez from IM

If they're not going to believe the evidence from the time machine, then there's simply no hope for them. - Victor Ganata

I was including Amendments and all Rights under 'Constitution'. I agree completely that the Birther issue is racist and people are grabbing at straws. Just like I believe that it's crazy to think the framers of Constitutional Law could foresee/and think they could forsee all the issues the US would face in its future. That's why the words they used are so broad and not to be taken in a formalist nature. - Jess

Jess, Rob, that was the genius of the Founding Fathers, that they realized no document could be perfect, so they provided a mechanism by which we could make changes. - Victor Ganata

Back to the original discussion, I understand Glen's original point regarding ad hominems and such, and it's valid in general cases, but we're now well past this being an "argument." There is no two sides to this anymore. There's the proven truth and that's it. Anyone who argues the other side is, by definition, now making a completely irrational argument, which usually is when ad... more... - Chieze Okoye

The fact that a Birther's belief cannot be falsified with any sort of evidence means the rules of logic can't apply anyway. - Victor Ganata

hehe, indeed. - Chieze Okoye

Ok.. well I don't give a shit anyway, about the birthers crap or whatever. ;o) - Rob Sellen :o)

As I said (in an earlier thread), ad hom may not be 100% correct, but it can be a handy rule of thumb. - Andrew C

I'm inclined to agree. Asserting that Elvis is still alive does not constitute a reasoned argument such that one is immunized from ad hominems. People who argue things of that sort are rightly dismissed as "bat-shit-loon-fucking-wing-nuts." - Christopher A Carr

WTF??? Elvis..died? :P - Rob Sellen :o)

That's an abstracted birth certificate. - MicahBear78

Obama should make his original, 1961 birth certificate available, just for transparency's sake. According to Hawaii officials, they have it in their vault. So there's no good reason not to show it. - Rob Sterling

No, he shouldn't. - Steven Perez from IM

I didn't know bunnehs had birth certificates. You learn something new every day :) - Mellissa

Rob, I'm totally sure that the birthers who have not only rejected every piece of evidence to date but refused to even acknowledge their existence will certainly change their tune if Obama were to release the long form birth certificate! - Andrew C

@Andrew - The only piece of evidence that means anything is the 1961 birth certificate from the vault. And I can't imagine a reason for Obama to keep it locked up. - Rob Sterling