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New post: Shades of gray http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpre...

November 2 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon and Rachel Walden liked this

Brilliant post, Meredith! It's a dichotomy that's always bothered me and I'm glad a professional with your standing is addressing the issue. - Jill O'Neill

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Thanks Jill! - Meredith

Erm. I think there are standards of honesty and fairness that depend to some extent on where one is. If a systems librarian whose library migrated from SirnixDysi to Evergreen slags SD at every opportunity, *that means something* and I'm inclined to trust it. SirnixDysi's head honcho doesn't get that level of trust, because 1) he has an obvious selfish reason to slag the competition,... more... - D0r0th34

All of this, I mean to say, is wholly independent of which vendor one works for and what kind of software or services they're selling. - D0r0th34

I left my comment on the post. I think Dorothea's said it in a different way--there are employees of firms who sell libraries goods & services who are capital-v Vendors and other employees who aren't, or are more subtle about it. As one who's been in (I think) that middle category most of my career, it's a tricky balancing act--and the "more subtle about it" can be the trickiest to spot and deal with. - Walt Crawford

I may end up going in that direction myself, Walt... but the identical instant anybody wants me to write meretricious trash like that thing from Abram is the instant I tender my resignation. My employer can muffle me (and has), but s/he can't make me put my name on misrepresentations -- my name is worth more than that to me! - D0r0th34

Dorothea: And I'd guess that's true for the vast majority of active library professionals who are employed by goods-and-services providers (certainly including most of the active OCLC people I've known, as one example--but I've never heard of OCLC muffling people). There are actually relatively few Capital-V Vendor types ("always selling") active in the profession, but people do cross the line at times. - Walt Crawford

I agree Dorothea. If I ever worked for a vendor, I wouldn't compromise my integrity by putting my name to something I didn't believe in. However, what Stephen wrote was very consistent with what he's said to me in private conversations about open source ILSs -- whether that's better or worse is in the eye of the beholder. - Meredith

I know when I was offered a job by a vendor, I thought seriously about what it might do to my reputation and opportunities (not why I ultimately didn't take the job tho). I think it can be hard for some to walk that fine line between representing themself and their employer in the online world, and some of that depends on what their position is in the org and what the org itself is. - Meredith

One of the librarians I respect most used to work for a vendor, and having her around helps me keep things in perspective. If I was hard on Stephen, it was because his paper was so fun and easy to parody, not because OMG he's a vendor. - s t e v e

Oh, I should note that one of the things that raises somebody in my estimation is being willing to see the mote in her own eye, even if calling attention to the beam in somebody else's. I've contributed patches to DSpace. I still think it sucks (though 1.6 is going in a lot of excellent directions, finally) and I unabashedly point people to EPrints (open-source) and BePress (hosted... more... - D0r0th34

Thanks for standing up for what's right (and knowing what that is), Dorothea. - Mr. Gunn

well, I make no claims of ethical perfection; I've stepped over some lines in my time. but when it comes to software and service offerings, I do my best to play fair. - D0r0th34

LSW: DJF

A friend passed along a link to this blog posting about "structurelessness" in organizations, and I realized a little while later that, while it was originally about feminism and women in open source, it's also applicable to the LSW's own brand of anarchy. http://eaves.ca/2009...

October 27 - Comment - Like - Share

awd, tara, suelibrarian and 7 other people liked this

Very nice. IMO one of the things that helps LSW is that "welcoming others" is a central desideratum, one of the things that confers such "power" as LSW can confer. - D0r0th34

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But the discussion of "elites" and what an "elite" is are still relevant, I think. - DJF

Absolutely. - D0r0th34

Yes. I think author is write in suggesting that that sort of an elite is inevitable. I'd like to think that we are a fairly welcoming elite, and an elite that values criticism, and an elite that encourages behavior that is helpful, but I don't doubt that the elite exists. - laura x

Fascinating post that I have read quickly. I need to go back and read the linked articles. Josh tries to address some of this in his zine article, where he basically says "if you want to change the LSW, just participate or start your own splinter group." (i.e. "fork"). What is the LSW structure? What are our rules? There's Josh, who started the thing. There's me who has done a handful... more... - s t e v e

well, the question lurking under the surface is often "who are we excluding by our practices? who's walking away from us? whose voices are we not hearing? are we okay with that?" can be a tricky question to answer because people don't usually explain why they're walking away -- they just WALK. and unheard voices are, y'know, unheard. - D0r0th34

there's also the question of co-optation. Could the LSW be forked in a way we'd hate? Can we prevent that? - D0r0th34

Steve, There's nothing wrong with a hierarchy or relative authority based on length or amount of participation. What the article is arguing is that it's better to recognize that this happens, so that newcomers aren't floundering wondering what's going on. By saying "Yes, I've been here the longest, and have done a bunch of things," you acknowledge that others might see you as a "leader" of this "leaderless" group. - DJF

And...heh. You edited just as I was about to ask if you had a good idea of how to tell. I know some people have felt alienated by personality issues, language, the not-very-professional parts of our not-all-that-professional group. - s t e v e

Yes. And there's also a self-selection bias in that we're an almost-exclusively-online group. - D0r0th34

Right, DJF, I'll cop to that. I think Josh and I both try to acknowledge that, but also say "PLEASE come up with LSW stuff on your own," and many people have--making ribbons for conferences, starting LSW presences on other social networks and so on. - s t e v e

Personally, I'm completely cool with people feeling excluded from the LSW because of personality issues, language or not liking our not-very-professional attitudes. The fact that pretty much all LSW stuff happens online, thereby excluding a lot of people who don't spend a lot of time online, does kind of bother me, although I'm at kind of a loss as to how to remedy that. - josh neff, geek at large

As for forking, it would be fascinating and awful and hilarious if someone tried to fork it in a way that "we" would hate. Paris Dada vs. Zurich Dada! You are no longer a Surrealist according to this manifesto I just wrote! - s t e v e

I think, though, that there's a perception of cool that is intimidating to people (I suspect). I think the LSW is far more welcoming than, say, a high school clique, but if part of your goal in joining is to be liked and welcomed, you'll want to do things that the group thinks are cool, and people have a lot of anxiety about that. - laura x

I totally agree, Laura. Do you think we do an OK job of lowering that bar? Or is there something else we could do? - s t e v e

There is definitely a perception of cool that is intimidating *at first* but my experience, at least, is that once you gather the courage to step over that barrier and post to FF (or, in my case, sit down on the floor at LobbyCon), the welcoming aspect completely overwhelms the barrier and one is left thinking, "I was intimidated by these people? Really?" - Catherine Pellegrino

personality issues reign eternal; they're impossible to avoid. problems arise if they're so pervasive that they threaten the health of the group, or if they verge on exclusion-by-demographic-category. I can't speak to the former (though LSW seems pretty healthy), and I don't *think* the latter is happening, but I'm obviously not the right person to say for sure! - D0r0th34

"I was intimidated by these people? Really?" LOL "What a bunch of dorks! I can be queen of this group and have a dork army to do my bidding!" - s t e v e

Steve, I would love to see a "Paris Dada vs. Zurich Dada" situation! - josh neff, geek at large

I don't know. As I said, I think we're generally welcoming (as Catherine just said), or more welcoming than many elites, but I don't really know how you lower that barrier. I think I would rather concentrate on not having our interactions with one another become toxic, which is another thing that often happens. - laura x

OK. So be conscious, conscientious, cool (but not too cool) and keep on truckin'? - s t e v e

Two possible suggestions for lowering the intimidation bar: (ir)regular "de-lurking" invitations in the FF room, along the lines of "introduce yourself!" (Like Shovers & Makers, but lower-key). Also, "Bring a Friend" invitations where LSW members invite someone they know who they think would like the LSW to come check it out, er, somehow. - Catherine Pellegrino

Yeah, I think rather than worrying about lowering the bar, we just concentrate on being excellent to one another. Especially since I've come to believe that feelings of "I'm not cool enough for those people" are interior, not exterior. I can't help it if someone thinks they're not cool enough to associate with me, because I know it's not true. - josh neff, geek at large

I think that's just right, Steve. - D0r0th34

I know that when I wore my LSW ribbon at the Access, I got a lot of questions, and I'm pretty sure I didn't explain it very well, but I know that other people at the conference were also explaining what was going on - DJF

same thing happened to me at ALA - D0r0th34

I only wish I'd taken some to the Linux Fest last weekend. That would have been amusing - DJF

I go back to Clay Shirky's thing about how the internet is held up by love. I don't know if his talk stands up to rigorous inquiry, but I do feel that one of the main reason LSW exists is because we wake up each day loving the idea and loving each other and create it anew each day. I mean it so very sincerely that I love the LSW and the people in it, and am grateful for this group, whatever it is. - s t e v e

Well, one person did walk (cough) and sort-of said why...but he didn't walk all that far, and he sort of crept back partway, singing "but I did not shoot the deputy..." under his breath. Unfortunately, sometimes he now refers to himself in the third person...but doesn't think the LSW needs to or should change. - Walt Crawford

I wasn't going to bring up any specifics about that person, but if people think that some of the dominant personalities here are too dominant, or just rub them the wrong way, this could certainly be a difficult place to spend your time. I wonder what the LSW room would look like if you had me blocked? That would be great. - s t e v e

Also, don't harsh my mellow, Crawford. - s t e v e

Well, that's why I wrote what I did for the latest zine, Steve. If people think that, say, you or I are too dominant or just too annoying, but they like the basic idea of the LSW, there's nothing stopping them from forming their own version of the LSW. I certainly won't stand in anyone's way. I probably won't even go all Andre Breton on them. - josh neff, geek at large

Josh: Of course there's something blocking their way--it probably wouldn't work, and it certainly wouldn't have the LSW people in it. (Doing the same idea in another field: That might work.) Steve: I'm mellowing your harsh--this apostate did come back, didn't she? Or he, or whatever? And the person in question only has one block, not in any way related to LSW. He wouldn't think of blocking NeffLawson & Co. - Walt Crawford

There is a lovely, lovely passage from a letter from the Berkeley Free Speech Movement (nods to Walt) that I would like to add to this thread, and if I find it tonight, I'll type it up for you. But it talks about how the members of the movement worked together and learned together and ultimately, "found flowering within ourselves the very presence whose absence we were, at heart, protesting." - laura x

Nods back, although, shamefully, I was only an observer at the time. (OK, I was also only a frosh or sophomore...) - Walt Crawford

Walt, I'm not entirely convinced it wouldn't work. I mean, I didn't really think the LSW would "work." I started it on a dare & as a lark. I absolutely didn't think it would still be going like it is. The only way we'll know if it would work is if someone really did start their own LSW. - josh neff, geek at large

I'm not entirely convinced it hasn't worked *already*. I have no evidence of this, but it seems entirely plausible that someone has peeked in on LSW, thought "these are a bunch of wankers" and gone off to form some other more low-key group that better fit her personality. - s t e v e

Maybe I'm saying it wrong. It's not that you couldn't start a new LSW-like disorganization; it's that, at least within the same general space, it wouldn't attract enough of the same kind of people--'cause they're already in LSW. On the other hand, an LSW-like disorganization clustering school librarian types, or plumbers, or whatever...yeah, that could work great. - Walt Crawford

Hmm. The BSW (Blue Skunks of the World)...there's an idea. - Walt Crawford

Well, I guess I was thinking of being at ALA and people saying "are you going to the Facebook meetup" and I was all "the whatbook whatup?" Because I'm not in that group. But other people are and they find it meaningful and collegial enough to schedule a meetup and all. But yes, an actual splinter group, like "I'm leaving and taking my faction with me" would be weird/impossible. - s t e v e

If there was an actual faction, it would be plausible but, I think, stupid. (Maybe the wrong word.) If there's some friction, well, that's life. I hadn't thought of the "LSW in other media" version--is there an LSW Ning? (Sorry: Forget I asked that. Please.) - Walt Crawford

Did I neglect to say it? Laura's quotation is beautiful. - s t e v e

it is! - D0r0th34

Yes, I should have said that: Laura's quotation is beautiful. (And the FSM was, in its way, a thing of beauty. Wonder whatever happened to the booklength ms. I wrote on FSM's press coverage...on an electric typewriter, using microfilm as source material. Walking uphill in the snow five miles each way. All true but the last.) - Walt Crawford

Steve, I love your love post. - marthalib

There's a LinkedIn group? That does social networking? On LinkedIn? I never woulda guessed. (Maybe because, for me, LinkedIn's mostly been an incredibly extensive and wholly useless set of contacts...I would never have thought of it as a social network) - Walt Crawford

Interesting. Turns out I'm already a member. And, looking at the interaction, I guess I'd still say "Social networking? On LinkedIn?" There's a level of Earnestness there that I'd expect on LinkedIn--more serious than ALA Connect, and even less lively. But I'll check back frequently--maybe even once a month. - Walt Crawford

I do so like kgs's (I think) description of LinkedIn as "Facebook as if invented by Microsoft." - DJF

I was thinking of forming a splinter group / faction / fork called the "Special Libraries Liberation Army" (SLLA) of the LSW. - joe is...

Nice essay! Applying it to the LSW - the only thing I've noticed so far is similar to what I notice most places on the net, to greater or lesser extent: that, despite its name, the LSW is really pretty America-dominated. Not in an "Only Americans will be welcomed" way of course - just in an "America is the default" way. Proposed meetups are in the US; synchronous chats happen in hours... more... - Deborah Fitchett

Yes, Deborah, good point. And that doesn't even get into non-English speaking people. It's funny because the name was really supposed to sound grandiose. If Josh was being more literal he would have called it "American Librarians Who Like to Joke and Argue Online & Friends." :) - s t e v e

Deborah, the challenge is that we are all victims of the world's timezones. Even within North America, there are definitely communication barriers between the east and west coast caused entirely by the time difference. Friendfeed makes that a bit simpler by being slightly less synchronous than chat, but the problem is still there. - DJF

@DJF - Yes, I definitely understand. There's a reason why I participate in LSW mostly on Friendfeed (and why my early days on the internet were mostly on Usenet!) It's not something that bugs me; it's just something I occasionally notice, and even more occasionally feel vaguely on-the-outskirts because of. - Deborah Fitchett

@Steve - Fair enough! Heh, at one stage I was doing an irregular series of blog round-ups of non-English library blog posts, because there's so much going on that we never hear about. But then other interests took over, and now it's on my list of Things I Must Get Back To Sometime. - Deborah Fitchett

Cripes, I can't find the piece of paper where I wrote down the whole quotation, but I'll keep looking. And if I can remember anything at all more about the book it came from, I may ask one of you people in a large place to try to find it for me, since Google Books is so far failing me. - laura x

Thanks, Steven! That's where I got my "seed" of French, Spanish, Danish and Swedish library blogs but I should take look for other countries now that Google Reader does its (sometimes hilarious) auto-translate thing. Interestingly it was mentioned by some NZ tweeps this morning, and consensus was that the NZ section was already out of date. Things change quickly online... :-) - Deborah Fitchett

LSW: s t e v e

ALA out of control? Does nothing for its members? Better than sliced bread?

October 26 - Comment - Like - Share

Jenny Levine, Rachel Singer Gordon, Sir Shuping and John Dupuis liked this

Yer just stirrin' the $#!+, Lawson. :P - D0r0th34

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Split off from: http://ff.im/axiLk - s t e v e

Am not! I'm just trying to save Luke's thread. (Well maybe I am a little.) - s t e v e

Steve saved me the trouble. I'm honestly curious. "I don't like ALA/it doesn't serve my needs" is one thing, and certainly true for many. "ALA is broken/out of control/useless/soon to be defunct" is quite another...and, if true, would seem to have some visible signs. For me, ASIST was broken many years ago, and I left--but I didn't take that to mean "ASIST is [generally] broken." So, I'm clearly not getting something. - Walt Crawford

I would say that because ALA wants to be & do everything, they effectively accomplish nothing. I would join *just* ACRL & various other in-ALA groups that meet my needs (as opposed to the social roundtables, the "Save Guam sea turtles, and various other stuff), but you have to also get the whole ALA infrastructure - and price inflation - because it's under the ALA umbrella. Meh, I say.... more... - Archangel ωαřмaiden

For me, ALA just doesn't resonate. I'm pretty sure I'll join again at some point when some section or division is compelling enough to make me want to do it. But the group as a whole--I dunno. I can't see any difference whether it exists or not. - s t e v e

When this question has come up before, the answer to the money thing is always "that all goes towards advocacy." But given that in situs like the Philly Free Library I saw more brouhaha in online networks than out of ALA on the Hill, it just doesnt ring true. And my personal philosophy tends to be "if it's not useful, drop it." And so, ALA loses because it doesnt make itself useful to me. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

I really wish I could just be a member of ACRL, but I have to belong to ALA to be in ACRL... - joe is...

And to pre-empt the "well then join & change it" - thanks, I have a full time job and a life already. I'm not interested in forcing an organization back to what its core mission was supposed to be in the first place, which is to support libraries, and ostensibly librarians in the profession. If you cant do that, then I'll find another org. I think this is why SLA (ASKPro, whatever) has become so popular. it's got better focus. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

I'll argue that the Washington office and OIF have both been very effective--and that the Annual Conference does a better job of bringing diverse librarians together than anybody else. Otherwise, I've heard several "why ALA doesn't work *for me*" answers, all of which are entirely legitimate. For you. California Library Association doesn't work *for me,* which is why I'm not a member--but I don't quite call CLA broken for everybody. - Walt Crawford

I could respond to a couple of things (e.g., the conference programming timeline is down to a year, and Jason G. and others are pushing to get it down further; $400? really?; and I reject the notion that nobody but doctors can take stands on health insurance policy)--but I've done my bit for ALA, and I'm just curious here. So far, I'm getting "ALA isn't for everybody." A sentiment that I'd heartily agree with, since no association is. - Walt Crawford

Walt - all true. And very true about the diversity at Annual. Again, I consider ALA simply not cost-effective for my purposes (my membership lapses and re-ups according to how flush my budget gets), and the committees I've been on have been a whole lot of smoke and not much accomplishment, which drives me nuts. but other people joining & engaging through it doesnt offend me. I'll likely... more... - Archangel ωαřмaiden

[Full disclosure: I am not currently an ALA member, though I have been in the past and may be again in the future] I think there's a certain misunderstanding about the way ALA runs. Resolutions are passed by ALA Council, which is a group elected by the membership that meets twice a year (and is thus unable to do much in a really timely fashion). I am actually in favor of professional... more... - laura x

Two issues at cross purposes: smaller organisations better suit the individual (for interest groups, networking etc), larger ones better suit the profession (for advocacy). Jill: I am not sure how an organisation could achieve do anything if they couldn't make statements on the organisation's (members') behalf. I renew each year because of ALA's advocacy efforts, networking, and the few committees I'm on. Advocacy is hard to see but is vital. - Fiona Bradley

I suspect there's a reason ALA doesn't do much with the Council-passed political resolutions. There's no way (I can think of) to prevent them without emasculating the organization--I mean, *everything's* political at some point--but ALA's pretty good at targeting *real* advocacy (OIF, Washington Office, the new merged Friends/Trustees division) and letting the other stuff just sit there. - Walt Crawford

Jill, I think that is true that ALA's stance on non-library issues can impact libraries in communities that disagree with that stance. It's used against libraries that have nothing to do with what they are saying as the perception is that all libraries support it. Let's focus on just the library issues and advocacy for those libraries. I do find ALA useful for conferences, networking,... more... - Jeff Scott

That is true, but I haven't been able to network as well without state or national conferences. It's expensive, maybe overpriced, but I can't get the same experience elsewhere. - Jeff Scott

Lots of good stuff here, guys. As someone who's working his ass off to change ALA, I'll just say this: I think it's important for there to be an organization of some type for Librarians, but since I disagree with lots of the things that they are doing, I'm running for ALA Councilor at Large this year, along with a cadre of like-minded fellow librarians. I understand the "it's not for me" attitude, though. - Jason Griffey

One issue that those of you who want to join only *parts* of ALA is that there is a lot of overhead and support which "big-ALA" provides to the smaller pieces. The dues for those units would be much, much higher if they had to provide those pieces themselves. Those things include little stuff like: office space, graphics talent, being part of a larger health plan [have you ever priced... more... - Michael Golrick

Ah but Jeff, that age old question: what is a library issue? :) Griffey: yeah! I believe in associations and that's why I work for one. But yes, I get "not for me" too, and that's why I'm not a member of ASIST. - Fiona Bradley

Jill, on the issue of stands. I am proud that I voted for the health care resolution. There are many libraries which cannot provide health insurance to staff because of the current flawed system. If you had picked Cuba, we might have had a different conversation. I hope that Jason Griffey is elected. Vote in the election! - Michael Golrick

Yup. There are a number of folks running this go round - including griffey (and is Dobbs on the ticket too?) that I would be thrilled to vote for if I were a member. That alone may be worth digging up the rejoin fee, to see how some of the go-getters will change the direction of a behemoth like ALA. Lots of folks will be watching. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

Just a little historical perspective: ALA and state library associations have had positions on seemingly non-library issues for a long time. This statement from the Wisconsin Library Commission during the WWI era was typical: http://harmoniasnecklace.blogspot.com/2008... Many statements extended beyond the use of literature and into the realm of everyday life. ALA policy was to support the war and the organization was very vocal. - Katy S

Colleen, I'm not on the ballot this coming election - thanks to (iirc) ~4300+ people I was elected to a full 3 year term last year, I'll run for a seat on Council again in 2012 (assuming I don't do anything rash like run a last-minute campaign for ALA President on a platform informed by LSW values or something crazy like that) - awd

Jill, way back up the thread you linked to a letter from the ALA Washington Office about ALA's recent Health Care reform resolution and closed with: "We're not doctors." -- Neither are the lawmakers (nor most of the advocates for any side) who are discussing reforming health care... what does the lack of an M.D. degree have to do with having opinions about the shape of health care in the future? - awd

The ALA resolution *does not* prescribe a solution, the resolution says ALA supports reforming health care and spells out a preference which will benefit libraries and library workers. *If* reform does not include single payer (and I think there is no way single payer will happen this time around) then we would like to see a public option included. Whereas #4 and #5 spell out why this... more... - awd

If ALA isn't a good fit or you feel it's not where your money gets an acceptable return/value, I'm not saying you're wrong here, btw. (whoa, saying *that* in a public forum just killed my chance of getting elected ALA pres, right? Hope not...) - awd

This will sound totally wrong, but if you were to write up all your points in this thread (I kinda just pulled a bunch of stuff from this thread together) and posited a suggestion or solution for several (not even all of them) and ran for Council I bet you'd get a lot of votes. The trick, then, would be affording the meatspace trips to wherever Council meets for the next 3 years. (ps I'm taking notes from LSW posts in case I end up being rash) - awd

This, of course, assumes that one *wants* to be on Council (and I'm delighted that there are others who do!). As for ALA Pres...really? You're that close to effective retirement or can afford a one-year sabbatical? (For the record: Saying "If ALA isn't right for you, that's OK too" would be a plus in my book for someone running for prez.) - Walt Crawford

Sabbatical, or an awesome deputy and/or spouse who can take on looking after your job and life (or so former presidents tell me). Association presidency should not be a near-retirement job. How would one have the stamina? - Fiona Bradley

Agreed on Fiona's "Association presidency should not be a near-retirement job." -- Sure, a president should have a good grasp of the various issues confronting the Association and its members - but being near retirement should not be a major consideration (handy, perhaps, no argument there, but not a decision point) - awd

Yup Aaron. I know some who have done that and it's been a fantastic capstone to their career. But at other times, it's good to mix up experiences and points of view. Actually, I think ALA tends to do a good job of this. - Fiona Bradley

Aaron: I'm just saying that the ALA presidency is a *lot* of work--it appears to be nearly a full-time job. But I withdraw the "near retirement"--if you can get back into a position after a year "out," that's great. - Walt Crawford

Walt: I'm curious, has anyone actually taken a year off to be ALA president? Wouldn't their organisation be covering some of the costs of being president, and be too expensive to do on your own? - Fiona Bradley

Fiona: I think a number of organizations have effectively given the president most of a year off, and it does seem to me that some ALA pres'es essentially retire after being Pres or Past Prez. For some organizations, the prestige of having an ALA Pres may be worth the lack of on-the-job effectiveness. And I could be wrong about how big a load it is; I've only been a division president, and that's actually a piece of cake (for LITA, at least). - Walt Crawford

If Aaron is really going to nick some LSW ideas as part of his presidency, I'm assuming he means that he wouldn't actually do anything but leave it up to the membership to do whatever the heck they think would be fun/useful. - s t e v e

Steve! Shh! :) - awd

I don't hate ALA, but twice yearly conferences, plus three every other year with ACRL, is a huge barrier to participation. I've been out of the US but I continued my membership. I just moved back to the US for a job, and now I can consider becoming more active. But it feels like I'd have to attend two conferences a year for a while before I'd even make it onto a committee. It's great... more... - Joan

Joan: I have never lived in the US (yet), but I have been an active member of ALA for 6 years. My path to involvement was NMRT, which has many virtual appointments. I would be interested in others. I usually try to get to Annual every other year, I pay for myself to attend but I enjoy it a lot so consider it worth going (and is a lot cheaper than some other conferences I go to). I would never see US friends and colleagues otherwise. - Fiona Bradley

Joan one nice thing about ALA committees is: the meatspace meetings are not required so long as you participate in the between-meetings discussions/planning/activity. (this (finally) got changed for (almost) all ALA committees last January) -- tips for getting involved, volunteer on the committee volunteer form (pick things which interest you, write a personal note to the Pres Elect in... more... - awd

Fiona, I was actually involved with NMRT a bit my first year or two. I served on a committee actually (was one of the only people doing the work! how typical. anyway...). But it didn't really click for me. Aaron, thanks, I didn't realize the policy had changed. And yeah, I'm definitely not interested only in high profile committees, and I don't mean this as a "they won't let me in their committee" rant. It just seems very hard to break through. I appreciate the tips. - Joan

holly

can someone help? my eyes just rolled so hard I think they got stuck.

October 20 - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon, Slavomira Vladimirova, Kol Tregaskes and 28 other people liked this

Snarky Holly is jaded. - holly

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*yawn* *changes the channel* - Mary Carmen

If I'd wanted to be a rock star, I would've learned to play guitar. - Kirsten

do rock star librarians get paid more than regular librarians? i could always go for a pay raise...how bad are the groupies? - Sir Shuping

LOL - I hadn't considered the groupie factor. this may change my opinion! ;) - holly

Real rock stars are, at least some of them, musicians. I'd guess the average earnings of rock musicians from rock music make library salaries look pretty good by comparison. A handful of them become rockstars--usually for a while. So, you know, be careful what you wish for. - Walt Crawford

*sigh* *goes back to doing her job well, unconcerned with rockstar status* - Jenica

What doofus wrote this, Holly? "Rockstar" is such a stupid metaphor. How about: "Are your librarians valued, valuable, essential resources to your community? If not, should they maybe consider wearing leather pants? Hmmmm?" Doofus. - David Rothman (☤)

I cant afford the hookers and blow it takes to be a rockstar... - Archangel ωαřмaiden

Interesting that the meaning behind the question is being obfuscated with the snark... - awd

librarians are not rockstars. They are (in the PL) municipal employees: underpaid, overworked, and the brunt of everyone's complaints. Much of this also holds in the academic world, although I have found there to be fewer complaints in the academy. - DJF

I am a rockstar, but not when I'm at work. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

kendra *is* a rockstar. truth. - holly

To prove this, I will have a Thee Kendrak Attack Performance at IL. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

WOO! - holly

Aaron: I think the snark uncovers something here--"rockstar status" may not be ideal or even what you're looking for. Valued contributors aren't usually rockstars... - Walt Crawford

So you are saying I *shouldn't* install a pyrotechnic display behind the reference desk? - s t e v e

Steve, make sure to chain all the firedoors closed before you set the display off, to get the maximum effect. - DJF

Students love our fog machine. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

The "rockstar" language that we often see is funny to me since rockstars seem to have less and less cultural currency anyway.There are pop stars, and there are quasi-indie pseudo-stars like Radiohead. But the idea of the "rock star" as the guy in the leather pants with the groupies and the eye makeup and the half-hour drum solo--those guys are dinosaurs. So the last thing we want to be should be rock stars. Gee, this is like a blog post. - s t e v e

Steve, you make an excellent point. How many people actually want that sort of thing anyhow? This weekend I hung out with the "rockstars" of my youth, and their appeal didn't come from leather pants or mega drum solos, but from an amazing attitude and energy and some amazing songs. That's what I want to emulate. Now, I'll never be the Operation Ivy of the library world, or even Rancid, but what about Common Rider or Schlong? - Kendra <3 Three Lions

If we are rock stars does that mean we have to wear leather pants? If so, count me out! - Bobbi Newman

The only rockstars in librarianship are the Dutch Boys. That's because they have accents, leather jackets and groupies. - Rochelle Rochelle

And they travel around the country in a van and are a little older than you might expect. - s t e v e

Kendra, if I could be the Cometbus of libraries, I'd be a very happy man. - s t e v e

I think you're not far off. I don't know who I'd want to be. Not really Jesse Michaels, not Dr Frank, I'll go for my gut and my heart and want to be the Dallas Denery of the library world. It's totally achievable. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

I'm a studio player. No fame, but a moderately steady paycheque. - DJF

Not too hard to guess, Steve. I know my age peers when I see 'em. - Rochelle Rochelle

And, you know, not all of us are wildly in love with the Dutch Boys. (Ducks and runs away.) - Walt Crawford

no need to run away, Walt. that is a-okay in my thread! - holly

we need more rockstars in education, seriously.. we need people who can do their jobs amazingly, achieve impact and influence our wider system - Holly Rae

Clothing Line: "Break the mold join the rock star librarian movement!" http://www.zazzle.com/rocksta... - JSNFLMNG

Jason, that makes me think of "you are unique, just like everyone else." - ǎňňǎ

totally: everyone can be a rockstar librarian 9if you wear our clothes) - JSNFLMNG

to me, it just smacks of TRYING TOO HARD. all of this rockstar stuff does. - holly

Nancy Pearl: "The original RockStar Librarian" http://bookchase.blogspot.com/2007... - JSNFLMNG

Cynthia Wilson =Rockstar Librarian http://www.myspace.com/iamalib... - JSNFLMNG

Ok, going back on myself a little: I like a little rockstar now and then. And the Dutch guys seem like pretty decent ones. They give real interviews where they give their subjects time to talk. They seem to get librarians generally feeling good about libraries and the work we do. I'm eating meringue cookies as I type this: I can't live on meringue cookies, but I don't have to. - s t e v e

that's cool, Steve. I know lotsa people like 'em, they just don't do it for me. kinda like cilantro. and licorice. - holly

First of all, unless you're Prince, you need to type out y-o-u, not the letter U. Second of all... yeah. I've got nothing beyond that. - cecily

HOW AWESOME WOULD IT BE IF THAT *WAS* PRINCE? - s t e v e

Well, I was running away to logoff and get lunch. To clarify: Not in love with means what it says. I see what they're doing, they seem like decent folks...but I also noticed the way they managed to treat apparently-non-rockstars as invisible in at least one social setting, navigating automatically to The Hot Folks. Which is OK, but doesn't require my admiration. But, as you suggest, nothing wrong with rockstars...once in a while. - Walt Crawford

This is from David Lee King who I DO like, and who I like more than other people who I would have expected to say something like this (and who will remain nameless). - Mike

David Rothman - I'm the doofus who wrote this. Cool - lots of interesting comments for my impending blog post! - David Lee King

DLK makes me laugh out loud ;) - JSNFLMNG

Remember, I am the Dallas Denery of the library world - obscure but brilliant, with a fair amount of self deprecation. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

Oh sheesh people. Some of you are deleting your comments! Get real. - David Lee King

oh seriously? lame. - holly

quick.. cache... too late.. didn't think to take a screenshot sorry - JSNFLMNG

<threadjack>Holly just HAD to drag cilantro into this, didn't you?</threadjack> - Miriella

No, wait - it's back. That was odd. Sorry - false alarm (very glad for that, too). - David Lee King

oh good. AND YOU KNOW I DID, MERRY. and I'd do it again ;) - holly

<threadjack>Holly's hatred of Cilantro is a perfectly valid comment</threadjack> - JSNFLMNG

OK - my goal with the tweet was to ... well ... get a reaction. Which I apparently did. Yay for me. - David Lee King

Haters. - Miriella

But here's what I mean - my library's communication specialist originally said this when a ref lib was worried that something was a bit too much about her (meaning her name and pic were attached). Cm Spec said "yep - my goal is to make YOU the rockstar, not me." - David Lee King

Meaning - our librarians ARE (well, or should be) a valued resource in the community. Let's take that 1 step further - have people ask for us, want to follow our writing in our library blog posts, want to attend our classes, etc. - David Lee King

I've heard a manager tell an employee they were a rockstar before (but it kind of sounded like a derogative statement) -as in you put yourself too far out there on the stage.-and- yo should try to do more workwork instead - JSNFLMNG

people don't friend brands or books. They friend people. Interesting people. People who call each other doofuses (oh wait - silly barb alert). Want your library to start getting noticed in your town? Start getting out, doing stuff, letting people know your names, etc. - David Lee King

Lester Public Library's director does that - he's got a column in their local newspaper! People know him. - David Lee King

So that's where I was headed with those thoughts. Now, you can continue rolling eyes if you need to :-) - David Lee King

pssshaw...let me show you how to be a Rockstar Librarian. You can help me trash my room in a drunken blackout at CiL. - Rev. Dr. W!cKeD Rock

woooooooooo \m/ \m/ - holly

who's gonna the gg allin of librarians? this community needs that sort of rebel. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

DLK, here's my actual, sincere response: As a librarian, I don't want to be a rockstar, to be ogled from afar and immortalized on an impossible pedestal for doing flashy, sexy things. I want to be respected, valued, and appreciated for the real contributions that I make to my community, and remembered for those things. Alternately, I'd like to be Angelina Jolie. Either would be fine. - Jenica

i'm more of a superhero in my community, rather than a rockstar: http://orgmonkey.net/?p=696 - Marie is monkeying around

Jenica - that's fair. And I think that there's a large group of librarians that want that. There are others who would rather the community focused on the library's resources, rather than on them personally. And that's just wrong, because the librarian is an amazing resource for the community. - David Lee King

Hi David! Reading over this, I feel pretty good about my contribution. Certain libraries in certain communities may need a "rock star"--someone who looks good on TV, who can sum up what the library is about in a memorable chorus. In my community, I think the more down-to-earth, DIY punk/hippie thing is a better way to think about it--someone you can share a joke with, ask a stupid question of, someone who will say "wow, I have no idea how to answer your question! That's neat!" - s t e v e

I don't know that it's "just wrong," David. The library is bigger than I am. It was here before I came along & it will be here after I go. I think I'm a pretty cool guy, but honestly, the library & all of my coworkers are much better resources than I am. Yes, I would rather the focus be on my library & everyone who works here than on me. - josh neff, geek at large

Josh - that's cool. But even then, you are focusing on the people rather than on the stuff, which is what I'm getting at. - David Lee King

Well, it's both. I mean, we're all good resources, but so are our books, DVDs, periodicals, databases, etc. Plus our comfy seating, our public computers, our wifi. It's the whole shebang. - josh neff, geek at large

Steve - that works. Someone else said "I'm more of a superhero" above, and Jenica said "valued contributor of community" ... Again, just thinking out loud, but I think some of this is similar to what I'm meaning. It's quite possible that using "rockstar" pushed some buttons (I'm apparently good at that sometimes). - David Lee King

Josh - B&N has that. Except for the databases. What's the diff? - David Lee King

Heh, that you are! Naw, I get it--the question seems to be "are your librarians active and known as librarians in your community, and how important is that?" And if you don't know the diff between B&N and the library, I can't help you. - s t e v e

Ye - that's what I'm sayin. And yes, I DO know the diff. But I think it's the librarians that make the difference. We arrange the stuff, we help find it, we teach about it, etc. A library's much more than it's stuff, I think. - David Lee King

David, I've worked for Borders & I've worked for public libraries, & I guarantee, it's not just the librarians that make them two different places to work or patronize. - josh neff, geek at large

Wondering if I'm more of a Keith Emerson (cult ultratalented prog-rocker) than a Keith Richards (mega-superstar). - Mike

You got me there Josh - I've never worked there. Just know two people now who have or did. Interestingly, the other one plays bass in local KC bands ... and wants to become a librarian, too. ohshootIbroughtitbacktotherockstarsagain! - David Lee King

DLK: like a church is much more than the building people worship in and the book they read out of? A pastor (insert religious figurehead here) can fire up a church, and members of the church can be beacons of kindness etc... and it is more of a community of information sharing/gathering working together in unison - JSNFLMNG

Jason - yep - that's a good analogy, too. Wow. So far, we have rockstars, superheroes, pastors, and valued contributors. And doofuses. - David Lee King

http://sadtrombone.com/ - Michael Porter

Rock n' roll library http://www.librarystuff.net/2009... - Mike

I think it's the mission of the library and the mission of the bookstore that make them so different. Competent people in each can make both of them important parts of the community. Yes, we think more of Powells or the Tattered Cover or something when we think of a bookstore as a valued member of the community, but I think a chain store in a town that hasn't had a decent bookstore can... more... - s t e v e

Speaking of which, I am going to the Tattered Cover tonight for a book signing... - joe is...

Besides librarians (rockstar & non-rockstar), libraries offer access to free information & entertainment, free literacy resources, free classes, free internet access (not just wifi, but computers for those who don't have their own) & free space. I worked at Borders while I was in library school & right after I graduated. No matter how much of a librarian I was at heart & in behavior,... more... - josh neff, geek at large

Josh - I get that. Really, I do. You say "I believe in the mission of libraries & what they have to offer a community." My earlier thought was this - One thing libraries DO have that they tend to not focus on much (or market) is their staff. We tend to promote the class & the resource before we promote the person behind the class or resource. So I agree with you, but I'm thinking about it from a different angle right now. - David Lee King

If I hadn't just finished the first draft of an absurdly long Making it Work/Philosophy essay, I'd be tempted to snatch this whole thread for use there...some really good stuff being said here. (I grew up Methodist, and if we had rockstar ministers, they'd be snatched away by other congregations with greater pull at the Conference level, where assignments were made...) - Walt Crawford

I have to think most everyone here's right. I want to be the earnest contributor, but a large part of my job as director is to be The Voice and The Face. We have to humanize our services as much as we have to build good services... - Jenica

David, can you tell me which libraries are keeping their staff hidden? Because every library I've worked at has had staff doing community outreach & regular patrons who got to know which staff member was good at what. If you look at my library's website, you'll see staff promoted all over the place. Now, most libraries I've been at have promoted services & collections *first*, but you... more... - josh neff, geek at large

Good points, Jenica. You are right :-) - David Lee King

Josh - well, your library is an exception, cause y'all rock (oops - sorry about that :-). I haven't seen many libraries hide librarians (though I do know some, and won't name them) ... but I HAVE seen plenty of librarians hide themselves. Hide themselves behind their stuff, their fears of standing in front of people, their fears of being known (even in my library, just the fact that we... more... - David Lee King

Oh sure, I've seen that, too. Putting pics of our staff up on our website wasn't met with universal enthusiasm. But not everyone *wants* to be in the spotlight. Not everyone *wants* to be a rockstar. Is that really a problem? - josh neff, geek at large

Well ... yeah. I DO think that's a problem. And here's how I'd spin that - a library wants to go in a new direction. Change their name, put faces, names, etc on the website. Go out in the community to attract people to the library and it's stuff (I'm thinking of my recent trip to anythink libraries in the denver area here). If some staff aren't on board ... well, they're not meeting the... more... - David Lee King

Interesting. I have long said that I don't think everyone has to be a "2.0 librarian" or whatever you want to call it, but that everyone does have to accept that libraries are changing and the status quo won't last long. So they don't all have to be guitar heroes, but if the library is going that way, they don't have the right to undermine those kinds of people and programs once they are in place. - s t e v e

I think several of you have made excellent points. I agree with DLKing that libraries need to be as present in their communities as possible, though I would argue that there are different "rockstar curves" (if I may coin a pointless phrase) for different libraries, in the sense that some libraries may have every staff member interacting regularly and thoroughly with the public. Others... more... - Louise Alcorn

In response to something Josh said, I've really struggled here with some of our staff, who are technically front-line staff, but who, given the opportunity, will keep from interacting with the public except at a bare minimum. A pleasant minimum, but still less than we could do. This is not unusual in libraries, as far as I can tell from what I hear from my colleagues. It takes a really... more... - Louise Alcorn

I'm certainly not arguing that working on the "front lines" isn't a public service job. But why, exactly, is it a problem if some staff don't want to be "rockstars"? I mean, I understand, David, that you think it's a problem. I just don't see *why* you think it's a problem. As long as they're not undermining the other staff, as Steve said, what's the problem with having some staff who... more... - josh neff, geek at large

Why? I'll try to answer. I think that "quietly doing their jobs" = complacency and falling into a traditional rut, which = death for the library. Never a good thing - in libraries, in any industry. The book Good to Great talks about that. But I also agree with Louise - this depends on the library and their goals. I also like what she said about "audience." I read somewhere that in a... more... - David Lee King

Wow. That makes me sad. Quietly & effectively doing your job is "complacency & falling into a traditional rut"? And that means "death for the library"? I don't see that at all. I certainly don't think that the key to library success is "be more like me." - josh neff, geek at large

Just telling you what lots and lots of librarians have told me. For them, "quietly doing their jobs" = no one stepping up to the plate to do the next thing (whatever that thing is) or (even worse) hoping no one notices them so they can minimally function at their job then go home. Effectively? Not sure you CAN be effective AND quiet... depends on what you mean by quiet. Doesn't share ideas at meetings? Doesn't ever have new ideas but still answers questions? What do you mean by quiet and effective? - David Lee King

See, when I think "rock star", I think about the librarians who have lots of speaking/preso gigs, or a whole lot of exposure beyond their community base, and that the quiet & effective folks we're mentioning just do their jobs and dont go on the circuit as much. And the quiet and ineffective ones need to go or be retrained. But that's my understanding. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

I mean not putting yourself in the spotlight, not acting like the fish dudes, but when a patron comes in needing help, you help them. When something needs to be done, you do it, not with a lot of flash, you just get it done. If you have ideas, you share them, but what if you don't have any ideas? At my library, I see a lot of good, qualified people who do their jobs but don't make a lot... more... - josh neff, geek at large

Sometimes "great" is "coming up with a brilliant new way of doing something." And sometimes "great" is "cleaning up puke, because goddammit, someone needs to do it." - josh neff, geek at large

Maybe I read your "quiet and effective" statement wrong. Sorry if I did! We might be talking about 2 different things here. Hope so! If they're quiet, and do their jobs well - that's wonderful. I'm certainly not meaning everyone has to be an extrovert! Heck, I'm a huge wallflower. But if they're quiet and don't speak up at a meeting (part of their job IS participating at a meeting) but then complaining about it later... that's something else entirely. - David Lee King

And I agree with your "puke" thing - in both cases, the person went the extra mile. - David Lee King

Of course, David, but I didn't think by "rockstar" you meant "someone who speaks up in meetings, instead of staying quiet but grumbling about it later." - josh neff, geek at large

My point was, just because you're not a "rockstar" in your community doesn't mean you're a bad librarian. - josh neff, geek at large

DLK- A doofusy thing is a doofusy thing, no matter who says it. Everyone says 'em. The internet just makes 'em widespread and permanent. I'd like to add that if your ambition as a LIS talking head is to evoke reaction, I strongly suggest pursuing more useful and meaningful ambitions. Your constant message seems to be "do more, be better," - and I love that- but the way that you sometimes say it (hyperbole, radical oversimplification, self-promotion) spoils the appeal of the message for me. - David Rothman (☤)

Agreed. But I also think that there's a pretty wide space between being a good librarian and being a community "rockstar" that could be explored a bit more by libraries... that's all. - David Lee King

A couple of comments. First of all, this seems to me to be pretty well the same conversation as all those SLA/ASKPro threads. Who are and what do we do, is there and "old" way vs a "new" way. - John Dupuis

Know what? Twitter is lousy for nuance. The role of the librarian perhaps deserves more nuance than terms like "rockstar." - David Rothman (☤)

David Rothman - to each his own. My goal isn't to evoke reaction (though I do that). It's always been to toy with ideas in my head, to share, and to see what others think. OTher people come along for the ride, whether or not they agree, and that's cool - David Lee King

And I must say - you didn't say "doofusy thing" - You said "what doofus wrote this, Holly?" I agree with your doofusy thing comment. The other? Not so much. - David Lee King

Second, I think a lot of the discomfort with the Rockstar term has to do with authenticity. When we think rockstar, we think of people who are clearly deluded (ie. Ozzy) and people who are famous for the sake of being famous or who want to be rockstars to show up everyone else or just to show off. I don't think this attracts more librarians or, in fact, most people, when it comes to how they do their jobs. People want to be authentic in their public personas, not something false and uncomfortable. - John Dupuis

John - you're right, and with my original thoughts, I wasn't going for deluded or fake! I'd just heard the statements more than once and was saying them "out loud." Yes - authenticity is hugely important - we can't be taken seriously otherwise. - David Lee King

At the same time, it's vitally important for librarians to be deeply connected to their communities, to be involved and visible. But I think the message here is that people want to be the Laurence Lessig or Clay Shirky of their library community outreach, not the Ozzy Osbourne or the Jon & Kate. - John Dupuis

DLK- sorry, but get over it. You say you wanted to evoke reaction. Fine, here's my reaction: it was a ridiculous thing to say. I didn't know who said it, just that it was ridiculous. I stand by that estimation. Yay! You evoked reaction- so stop portraying hurt feelings over it. If you aren't ready to receive disagreement and criticism, I strongly suggest not constantly posting your opinions online where they are subject to criticism. - David Rothman (☤)

DLK, that's great, it's just that you're never going to evoke an image of authenticity if you're talking about rockstars. Except for maybe Springsteen, but that's another thread. - John Dupuis

David - whatever. I disagree. No hurt feeling here - just pointing out what you said. Seriously - I love it when people disagree on my blog, in FF, in twitter, etc. But name-calling, even to anonymous people, is simply not cool. The "reaction" I meant from my original tweet was to say something and have people respond - not to see if I could get anyone riled. - David Lee King

John - yeah, I think you're right. Interestingly, people like Clay Shirky are called rockstars... - David Lee King

Several of the libraries I've worked with have been well served to keep some of their librarians hidden. On the other point - I totally want to be the Ozzy Osbourne of Libraryland. lmao In fact, going forward, I'd like to be referred to as the 'Prince of Darkness'. Seriously though, David, 'Rockstar' has connotations in the profession now...as in Colleen's (warmaiden's) definition. So, I think perhaps this is somewhat at the root of this long discussion. *wanders off mumbling* - Rev. Dr. W!cKeD Rock

Yep, you are correct I'm thinking, oh Prince of Darkness :-) Bad choice of words on my part. - David Lee King

David, true about Shirky, but I'm thinking more along the lines of contrasting *wanting* to be a rockstar rather than ending up as one -- although I can only guess at other people's true motivations, of course. Rev D, I was thinking more Ozzy 2009 rather than Ozzy 1975...and I'm afraid I don't know Colleen's rockstar definition -- is there a reference? - John Dupuis

My initial reaction has nothing to do with the message, which I agree with. It's with the hackneyed use of the word "rockstar" which, as someone who has spent a fair amount of time among web/software developers, makes me want to scoop my eyes out with a white hot spoon whenever I read/hear it. I prefer Jenica's original statement. Rockstars aren't approachable. They're someone you... more... - cecily

John - it's in this thread somewhere ... look for The Archangel ωαřмaiden - David Lee King

Cecily - nice. I like that. - David Lee King

And I still stand by my original comment about Prince. ;-) - cecily

DLK- Again: get over it. It was a doofusy thing to say and I didn't know who said it. I revise my original statement: "What individual said this ridiculously doofusy thing?" Better? - David Rothman (☤)

This project - http://www.librariesincommunities.ca/ - gave rise to a new position at a couple of branches in my organization, that of a Community Liaison librarian. This person is the face of the library for many community groups, particularly those under served populations. Would they be rockstars? - cecily

David Rothman - nothing to get over, but yeah - that's better. But really, I much prefer the name a patron called me a month or two ago - "sarcastic library nazi." That is a name worth a couple of giggles, at least :-) - David Lee King

Cecily - wow - that's a cool project! Yes, I think that would qualify (though I'm starting to shy away from "rockstar" a bit :-). But yes - being a human, a face, an actual person... that's what I'm trying to get at, I think - David Lee King

DLK- You seriously prefer to be called a Nazi than a doofus? Wow. Just: Wow. - David Rothman (☤)

oh stop it. It was a joke about a stupid name someone called me who was WAY off her rocker. we chuckled about it at my lib, after everyone agreed that I'm pretty much the exact opposite of a nazi. Sheesh. - David Lee King

I think the discussion is useful here. The level of snark and one-upsmanship some of the comments have though is frustrating. But I'd advise a few of us to take a chill right about now. Figuring out what is best for libs is what this is all about in the long run. - Michael Porter

I'm a rock star, but I want to live like common people. I want to do whatever common people do. - Meg v. Meg v. 1.0.0.1

*rolls eyes and goes off to hang with Holly* - David Rothman (☤)

I want to sleep with common people. I want to sleep with common people, like you. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

Well, what else could I do? - Meg v. Meg v. 1.0.0.1

I'll see what I can do. - Kendra <3 Three Lions

and dance, and drink, and.... - Michael Porter

because there's nothing else to do. - Jenica

And...scene. - s t e v e

DO ANYBODY NO WHO DERRICK LIKES - anna sauce

This thread is clear proof that FRIENDFEED IS DEAD!!! - josh neff, geek at large

deader than a doornail! - holly

OK, I thought I could close it out, but since there are more comments, I'm gonna say this: While I often disagree with David Lee King about this kind of thing--the emphases he places, the language he uses, the value of "getting reactions"--I respect that he's happy to come in here and talk about it without getting too worked up or personal about it, even when we've been snarky. I think that's pretty cool. - s t e v e

Absolutely, Steve. - josh neff, geek at large

totally agree - holly

Late to the party, but I also fully agree with Steve's last statement. - Walt Crawford

I was gonna go with Meg FTW, but good point Steve ;) - JSNFLMNG

I love this conversation, snark, silliness and all. P.S. I like to think of myself as a roadie. I do a lot of grunt work, but without me, the show doesn't happen. And I still get to take chicks back to my hotel. Er, dudes, whatever. - Rochelle Rochelle

As I said on Twitter 5 mins after DLK's post - we should be working to make our users Rock Stars, not ourselves - Kathryn says love n peace

I wrote about this three years ago, but I'm not sure I'd write it again today. http://rochellejustrochelle.ty... - Rochelle Rochelle

The reason I'd be a library superhero (not a rockstar) is to help advance my career, plain and simple. If I can advance my career by helping to improve the library's services, and by helping them deliver user experiences that the public enjoy using, then all the better. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with trying to get ahead by delivering stellar service. I don't think... more... - cecily

And I agree with Kathryn - it's our users who should feel like rock stars, not us. - cecily

Really though, out of a population of a city, what percentage use their public library? - Itachi

lris' ghost

Things I don't want to see when I turn on "House": Tied score in baseball, bottom of the 10th inning...

October 19 - Comment - Like - Share

pea, Rachel Singer Gordon, Roberto Bonini and 2 other people liked this

oh, poo. My TiVo will NOT know about that. - Louise Alcorn

nor will my DVR! hmmm - Rachel Singer Gordon

s t e v e

Thinking about "popularity" and online social networks and kids and grownups.

October 13 - Comment - Like - Share

Jenny Levine, marthalib, Kamilah Gill and 13 other people liked this

Blog post forthcoming? - cecily

100 more comments

I have found this is actually very hard to write about without sounding like a jerk. - s t e v e

*sucks my thumb and wonders where my teddy bear is* - lris' ghost

what are your thoughts? it sounds like a good topic but very diverse (or maybe I'm just too tired to see the connection?) - Sir Shuping

he's reading danah boyd, yes? - marthalib

No, Martha, but she'd be good on this. I'm thinking about the photo meme today and how they attracted people saying "people always comment on your stuff and never on mine," and so forth. That's just bumping up in my mind against some other conversations about who gets seen, who gets heard, who gets linked to, and why. And how odd it seems that grownups care about this stuff, but it... more... - s t e v e

gotcha and that does make sense. I often wonder those questions myself. I've not come up with any definitive answers though (or anything that makes sense) I'd be interested to see what you say - Sir Shuping

Plus it's not odd because attention leads to real professional advantages. I don't flatter myself that the scads of talks I'm doing this year are because I'm special. It's because I've been noticed. - D0r0th34

Yes, Dorothea, but there are people who want to be noticed and are having a hard time. Is it just luck? I think in your case you have a special point of view and a special voice. It doesn't mean you are anointed by god and gorman to be the Best Repo Rat of All Time, but it means something. It's just hard to say what. - s t e v e

I think that does affect it to an extent though. People here your name (steve), Dorothea, Iris, etc because of the presentations that you do or the writing that you do and that your thoughts and ideas seem to capture what a lot of people wanna say they just don't necessarily know how to put it in words - Sir Shuping

Steve, you have to understand that this particular person has had a history of... there's no other way to say it ... being off his meds and going off on people during these periods. This person has burned so many bridges that a large swath of the active FF community has blocked him. It's as if he can't win - he can't change the very behaviour that alienates people. - cecily

My interest is piqued. - Derrick

But as far as popularity and being noticed - FF is just like any other community of interest, whether it be professional or personal. If you make positive, worthwhile contributions, you'll get attention. - cecily

Cecily, he gained another block today. But it's not just one guy. - s t e v e

I seem to have missed something about blocks... - Sir Shuping

Right, it isn't just one guy, but it's a common attitude. Contribute. Talk to people. Interact, even if you're afraid you'll look like a dork (better a dork than a misanthrope, IMO). It takes effort to get noticed - people aren't just going to sing your praises and call you a special snowflake just for existing. (This sounds a lot more harsh than I mean it to be....) - cecily

See, it's hard not to sound like a jerk. ;) - s t e v e

Yeah, it's really up to yourself to call yourself a special snowflake. I find it's really kind of exhausting, even if it is work I love. =) - Andrew C

Is meaning relative in this instance? - cecily

What is I *am* a special snowflake? *shines tiara" - marthalib

Of course you are, martha - and you've worked hard to demonstrate that by contributing to the community. - cecily

teehee - marthalib

It's a strange thing. I'm certainly aware of my presence on FF and in real life but I've also been a person who's suffered incredible pain and depression and fear and feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. But I've also worked really hard to overcome a lot of those feelings as well. And it's not easy...it just isn't. But I'd like to think that I had good parents, and I closely follow the rule about treating people the way I'd like to be treated. (Commenting since, this came up, kinda, in my thread). - Derrick

I agree completely and wholeheartedly with D. - Mary Carmen

Bleh, what's luck? I'm important this year because of LJ M&S. That was luck, but it was also two kind friends. - D0r0th34

Dorothea, you are also smart, savvy, thoughtful, articulate and you know your shit. That doesn't hurt. - marthalib

Hunh. This is getting far afield, but you really think that about Movers and Shakers, Dorothea? Or was that a typo for "S&M?" Also, what Martha said. - s t e v e

*boggles at the comments on Derrick's thread ... smacks Dorothea (gently) for thinking that ... and thinks about the relative virtues and weirdnesss of being introverted* - lris' ghost

I am always curious what value "getting noticed" has for the people who worry about it most. - cecily

Ceciliy i wonder if it's not about "getting noticed" but who notices them...similar to day care :) - Sir Shuping

I'm not a parent - explain the day care analogy. - cecily

I think "getting noticed" isn't the end of the issue, actually. Popularity has more to do with the relative enthusiasm of that notice than with the mere fact of being noticed. - lris' ghost

I'm not a parent either, I'm just thinking back to my day care days...maybe high school is a better analogy. You want the popular kids to notice you or at least acknowledge that you exist...I don't always think this way now, but every once in a while I remember it - Sir Shuping

Derrick, I hear you. Someone in one of my online communities (who I later had a falling out with) pointed out that you can't ever tell what comes naturally to people and what comes at great cost. - s t e v e

+1 Cecily for comment about the meaning of notice. +1 Derrick for teh strange. As someone who's been trying to mop up after a blunt warning that my behavior was not appreciated, it's strange whenever I see that I'm *not* the person being blocked. - D0r0th34

"..the relative enthusiasm of that notice..." I'd never thought about it that way before, Iris, but it's spot on. I think what we're being noticed *for* is also at play. - cecily

Yeah, for sure. It's just not the whole story. - lris' ghost

I think there may be a relativity issue here, too. Example: I was recently told that I'm "a rock star" to my statewide lib community, because that is where I contribute most (posts on statewide lists, involvement in committees and assns, teaching CE, etc.). I've also had groups of librarians who I got to know nationally where I contributed mightily...for a short time. We've remained... more... - Louise Alcorn

whereas, conversely, in my professional life I'm a temporary rockstar, and in my workplace I'm a pariah. - D0r0th34

I think it's interesting that librarians are worried more about where they're presenting and who is "noticing" them than actually doing their work and getting their jobs done. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

Where did you get that comparison, warmaiden? I don't think anyone's said anything about thinking more about this than about working. - lris' ghost

I will step in to say: M&S definitely upped my "come talk to us" quotient this year. I don't think I've ever actively tried to appeal to any particular group or type, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I have tried to cultivate a sort of "brand" of griffey. But in the end, it's just me trying to do what I think is interesting. When I stop being interesting, people will stop listening. Pretty easy to understand, that. - Jason Griffey

I took 100 days off from all of this on purpose, and with purpose. There's a long (enough) list, but one reason why was that I'm just not as good at this as all of you are. (I will NEVER be at your level.) Another reason is that I found that I had nothing good and appropriate to contribute (positive and/or original). I had enough other things to worry about, namely surviving day to day with my new employer. I came back when I was in slightly better shape, and when I could participate more appropriately. - Julian

I had to learn one very important thing on my own, and in some of the most difficult ways possible: I AM NOT SPECIAL. - Julian

Julian, nobody's special. We're all just people, doing the best we can. Including you. - josh neff, geek at large

Iris - not said out loud here, no, but where is the talk about balance between building a Name (which many folks in LibraryLand try to do, because the rewards are rich and the traveling is fun) and making sure that we're also giving our utmost to our places of employ? I just never figured it was a popularity contest, and it amuses me that people do. Do your job. if you do it well and... more... - Archangel ωαřмaiden

I love this thread and the conversation sparked because of it. - Derrick

Wow. Off coping with rain issues & working on book for 2 hours and all this happens. Too late to add particular comments....but quite a remarkable conversation. Thanks. (warmaiden: you know, even when I was working full time and damn good at it, most of it wasn't interesting --or public-- enough to talk about on social networks. Even though everything else fit in where there was a little room.) - Walt Crawford

um, Colleen...I think I did just put something about that above, at least about *my* struggle for balance. Granted, it was a tad verbose (sorry, folks!), but it's there. At least implied. - Louise Alcorn

Thus, if there'd been FF back then, I would have been talking more about speaking, writing, etc., than about what I did for a living, although the latter would get 80% of my "professional energy." - Walt Crawford

@Louise - I did read that, and I think you are successful at what I posted in my comment. You do your job. You do it well. You understand there's an ebb and flow and that you cant be everywhere at once, and on everybody's dance card, you choose what works best for you & your library/users/local area first. I'd hold you up as someone who is successful at navigating your work, networks, and presenting/writing. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

response to Walt's comment: Much of what I present on and teach on, esp. here in my state, IS what I do all day - about how to be a better reference librarian or how to integrate technology into our libraries (which I struggle with all day in my job) or how to communicate with other professionals and find useful stuff that way (which I also do...here). I think of this (social networking) as an extension of all that work. - Louise Alcorn

Colleen, you just made me laugh, though I'm deeply flattered. I laughed (at myself) because, in fact, just this fall I have over-committed myself and I have had to have a serious think about what gets offloaded. That's BOTH professional and personal. It is *not* an easy think. - Louise Alcorn

Louise, I'm finding myself almost at that think-point. I can't keep up this talk schedule much longer. Which means I will have to figure out my basis for prioritizing opportunities. - D0r0th34

In any big group of folks like this, that get together on a regular basis, what I am always reminded of is high school. Cliques happen, groups happen. Some people because they have a certain something about them, get noticed more, some less. It's both a mystery and it isn't, as frustrating as that sentence is. I was never popular, I stopped trying for that ages ago. I've discovered that... more... - pea

Dorothea, I hear ya. And mine is a combo personal/professional/health set of issues, which is tricky. The things I get paid $$ for have to take *some* sort of precendence, and no, this does not include social networking. However, I have to give some sort of weight to those things that bring me soul pleasure, for lack of a better term. And connecting with my library peeps (on the web, in... more... - Louise Alcorn

Definitely agree with the comments on over-commitment. Keeping up appearances can only go so far. Beyond that is collapse. It's not the best place to be. Besides, people ultimately care more about what you do than who you know and where you've been. At this point, I'd rather try to do better work tomorrow (compared to today), and do it in total obscurity, than try to be "known" by "the people who matter most." To whom are we professionally accountable? - Julian

"At this point, I'd rather try to do better work tomorrow (compared to today), and do it in total obscurity, than try to be 'known' by 'the people who matter most.' To whom are we professionally accountable?" Well said, Julian! Exactly! - josh neff, geek at large

Julian, you make a great point...and perhaps the secret is to make sure we define for ourselves (rather than letting others define) who we think "matters" to us professionally. That said, I want Steve Lawson to think I'm awesome, so I will shamelessly comment on his posts ;) (j/k) - Louise Alcorn

Jinx, Josh, buy me a Coke! :) - Louise Alcorn

Julian, I agree. At this exact moment, I'm much more concerned about performing well at my job and doing everything I can to serve my students and faculty and to move our library forward. Unfortunately, I have to deal with the whole tenure thing, which means that presenting and publishing are Good Things. I am going to try to be more selective about what I sign myself up for, though. I... more... - marthalib

Martha, you made me remember a discussion - an academic librarian once said to me "why do you present and write books? you don't need tenure!" Um, cuz I have something to say? I feel for my academic colleagues, but I also have certification requirements and, more to the point, feel the need for prof'l growth. - Louise Alcorn

+1 Louise. I hope I *never* have to turn down talks about something that needs to be talked about. But presenting is one of those things where being a bit of a Renaissance woman is MORE than a bit of a pain. Yes, I *can* do an hour on Web 2.0 in libraries (just did), but, you know, so can a lot of other people and it's not what I do best or uniquely... nor is it something I have a driving need to think and talk about. - D0r0th34

Wow, fascinating stuff. I was thinking of this in a purely social network kind of way, not so much about libraries. (It was comments on Derrick's photo and other non-librarian photos that really set it off, though I think about this kind of thing frequently.) As usual, Colleen and I see things from totally different angles, so that kind of diversity of viewpoint must be good, right? - s t e v e

+1 Julian as well, *but*... I for one am stuck (for now) in an area where I can't do my work unless other people help me. Which they have precious little motivation to do under normal circumstances. So being big and loud and making waves outside the institution is, weirdly, one of the ways I try to do my work better *inside* the institution. It's a hit-and-miss strategy -- but so is everything in scholcomm. - D0r0th34

As for that, I think part of being a professional rather than just having a job is looking out beyond your place of work. I agree that there needs to be balance between working on the job and working on the career, but I can't agree that everything beyond doing your job is gravy. If Meredith and Dorothea and so many others felt that way, I wouldn't know them. - s t e v e

Steve, you made good points about the whole "popularity" issue, but I think that's a human thing and not especially a librarian thing, though I don't think you were necessarily limiting it to that. However, I'm gonna get all touchy-feely here and say that all humans need validation - somehow, somewhere in their lives. I would argue (and I think this is sideways to both you and colleen)... more... - Louise Alcorn

this is why I like friendfeed - T. Brent, technopeasant

I'm just slightly grumpy about presenting because I'm still working on this damn presentation :) - marthalib

Steve, I like your delineation between "job" and "career". this is how I describe my different activities, and I often get blank looks from my colleagues who are, and have always been, just doing a job. There is no larger profession and that's fine for them. I think more globally. - Louise Alcorn

Sometimes it is really hard to look beyond your place of work. It really depends, at least in my part of the library, how much attention and effort is necessary to get daily work accomplished. Only now, three years in at my current POW do I feel like I have breathing room to pay attention to some other stuff. Im not complaining because I love what I do. I also think that I have built my career around being really good at what I do. I get hired to do very specific things well. - Mary Carmen

Amen, martha. Ditto. so what have I been doing? Dinking around on FF :) I blame Mr. Lawson for this interesting thread. - Louise Alcorn

Blame Steve! Yes! He is, after all THE DEVIL. - marthalib

Dorothea, I think you make an excellent point about one *other* way to use the larger library world - to ultimately bring the ideas/energy/whatever home to your job library and integrate it there. sometimes you need to be able to say "well, the larger biblioworld is doing X, and so should we". It's lame, but may be the only thing that works. Also, I get idea-stimulated by my colleagues - e.g. today's discussions here. - Louise Alcorn

"As usual, Colleen and I see things from totally different angles, so that kind of diversity of viewpoint must be good, right?" I hope so, Steve ;) My bad, I got all brain-blurry and thought this was an LSW thread. Didnt mean to drag us back in to libraries ;) - Archangel ωαřмaiden

oh, poo. so did I. apologies. - Louise Alcorn

Oh, no apologies necessary! And Dorothea went there first. :) I was just surprised at how it went. You are always welcome to talk libraries in my feed. - s t e v e

yep, it's all my fault. :) sorry for going someplace unwelcome. - D0r0th34

may i talk librarians? ;) - T. Brent, technopeasant

Yes, T. Brent, please do. - marthalib

i like 'em. a lot. :) but i digress... - T. Brent, technopeasant

"If you make positive, worthwhile contributions, you'll get attention." - As it turns out, you'll also get attention by whining about how you get no attention, which is, of course, exactly why people do it. - Greg Schwartz

@Steve how can i find your blog? - T. Brent, technopeasant

http://stevelawson.name/seealso... Or search "Sergio Rivera Ayala." - D0r0th34

thank you :) - T. Brent, technopeasant

Heh. And if you follow Dorothea's advice, you'll end up landing on my blog, too. Also, this thread is so weird. :-) - lris' ghost

Again, it's all welcome. You can also just google my name and ignore the Baptist and the bassist (though the bassist is a great guy, so you might want to check back in on him). Because I'm in a Google popularity war with those Steve Lawsons. - s t e v e

Re-reading the thread, I realize I neglected to say that Louise is certainly awesome in my book. - s t e v e

One of the things I remember most when I first started my current job at MPOW was being told to "get to know people, get your face known, and circulate" among people in my library system. What this said to me was that being popular counts for a great deal in this system, more so than merit alone. That's why I'm not completely willing to say that we live in a meritocracy, and that we... more... - cecily

The same applies in any social sphere, whether it is online or offline, personal or professional. We just have to individually decide whether we can keep up with the cost of entry, or if there is some real (or perceived) value in being seen as a contributing member of these societies. Now, some people who feel that they can't contribute because of various personality traits may be... more... - cecily

If you have status, position, or whuffie in a professional or social context, you've already built a name for yourself. You're already golden. You can continue to build your reputation on your work (letting it speak for itself), or you could decide that you'd much rather be known as someone who lends a hand to those who are looking for a way in. That's where the true value lies, IMO - not in just building our own cred, but helping to build the credibility or reputations of others. - cecily

Does popularity play heavily into that? Yes. But I think in this context, it's a lesser evil that can be employed toward a greater good. - cecily

Cecily, some people got it some don't, and this post is all about him wanting it, sorry guy, don't hate on those who "get noticed" when that's what you're looking for - Gina

Cecily^1000000. (And may I say that I think the LSW is actually pretty good at reaching out.) - D0r0th34

Yes, Gina - some people have it, and some people don't. In real life, I'm one of those that don't - well, not much, anyway. But what little bit I do have, I try to share with others. Building goodwill is a great way of building a great reputation for yourself. Although this thread isn't just about that one person, he's demonstrated that he's not interested in or capable of building... more... - cecily

So, I have a desire to set aside the popularity lens and look at this in a different way. I've been reading a bit about social capital in online social networks over the past few days. Participating in online networks and fostering relationships there doesn't have to be about promoting one's own reputation, status or brand. It can be about creating a robust, vibrant network that, with... more... - marthalib

but... but.. I WANNA drive out to St. Cloud! No, but srsly, yes. If these things were pure popularity contests I'd have run screaming away a long time ago. They're group-building exercises, and while they're not immune to high-school perniciousness, there's more to it than that -- and thank goodness for it. - D0r0th34

Martha and Dorothea make really good points. I left one library-related online group, which previously had been interesting, because it became full of "high-school perniciousness", but the nice thing about online groups/social networking is that you *can* leave. Unlike one's day-to-day job, which can be harder to disentangle from. (if you'll excuse the dangling participle). (and thanks Steve, btw, I needed that :) - Louise Alcorn

Jumping into this *way* late, but interesting discussion all around! As for popularity, some of us who may be considered "popular" need to be slapped upside the head before we see that we are. I had to be told at my 5-year HS reunion that I was considered one of the popular kids. On Twitter, I'm approaching 1500 followers, but for all that's a concrete number, it feels so abstract to... more... - Katie

If I may join in even later... There is a more-than-coincidental connection between reputation building and making meaningful, authentic contributions to social networks. If you make valuable contributions to a network, you will almost always build and improve your reputation, whether you mean to or not. It's the reason I block so many "social media experts" when they try and follow me... more... - John Dupuis

^100, John. That's the point I was trying to get at. Reputation building doesn't have to be conscious - if you're a valued contributor, you'll make your reputation, whether or not you're actively trying to make a name for yourself. - cecily

Somewhere relatively early in my career I found I had achieved the goals I set for myself: became a reference librarian, then became a library manager. I wondered "what is my goal now?" I decided it was to serve other librarians. Originally it was in association work & article writing. Later it was in blogging & teaching, & has progressed from there. I decided long ago success would be... more... - Connie Crosby

David Rothman (☤)

David sez: "No one should die because he or she cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because he or she gets sick. If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day."

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Jeff Scott

Reading: Librarians and management - LLN: We have a bad, bad attitude, as a profession, about management.. http://pln.lyrasis.org/wiki...

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Michelle McLean

Michelle finished the blog post - part-time librarian behind the scenes revealed - http://connectinglibrarian.com/.

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Bobbi Newman

why r u still hiring staff who aren't comfortable with a computer? We've had comps for how long now? its a basic job req #ala2009 #ala2prom

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LSW: s t e v e

If we do another zine for Annual next year, it has to feature a bogus ALA schedule. Some of the stuff in the real event planner is priceless. Like the ACRL program: "DIversity - Canceled."

July 6 - Comment - Like - Share

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We know longer value diversity? - Jill Hurst-Wahl

well, the ACRL apparently couldn't muster enough interest to follow through... - DJF

Jessica W Sanchez

10,001 Ways to Live Large on a Small Budget - http://www.amazon.com/dp...

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Jill Hurst-Wahl

“There are more businesses created each year than there are marriages..." http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/news...

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LSW: lris' ghost

LSW's Growing Pains - http://pegasuslibrarian.blogspot.com/2009...

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Here's something I've been thinking about lately. Thoughts? - lris' ghost

47 more comments

I think you have some pretty astute observations about how it's growing and what people are starting to look for. And I think I've already seen a few folks tell some of the newer ones, make it what you think it should be. I'm not sure that people need to step back though to decide the future of the group though. I think that the people that are active will make their presence felt and the group will try things out and step in new directions. Some will fail, others will succeed. But I think it - Sir Shuping

will be interesting to see what happens next. - Sir Shuping

Insightful as always, Iris. I have thoughts of my own about what's going on with the LSW, but I've been too busy to focus them into anything coherent. - josh neff, geek at large

It's been interesting for me to compare this evolution with that of code4lib. The chief difference seems to have been that the lsw leadership were more inclusive and culturally aware from the very beginning. - D0r0th34

Dorothea: that's because LSW grew out of libraries, so some of the "founding friends" were female, and we all spend most of our time working with women. Code4Lib grew out of programmers: even the women in that group are (unfortunately, in a sense) accustomed to the locker-room feel of the developer-centred environment. - DJF

Oh that's a wrinkle I hadn't thought of, and I'm still not sure what I think of it. It's weird because I think part of the success so far has been that there's no real conscious structure. People could do whatever and have a name to attach to that. But part of some of the newer frustrations I'm hearing is that there's an expectation of more procedural inclusion rather than assumed inclusion. - lris' ghost

Yes. Absolutely. But is it enough to simply assume it? Part of our past experience with all Groups is that somebody "owns" the group and that ideas have to go through that person or people. I think some people expect to need permission before going and doing things in the name of LSW. - lris' ghost

I mean *we* know they don't need this permission, but do they? - lris' ghost

What's the phrase? "Tolerance for Ambiguity" I think? People who have this ability (as I like to think I do) easily do without formal/conscious structures (as I feel the LSW 'organization' consciously embodies). What is structure beyond potential restriction? Structure allows for building larger entities with specialized sub-domains or sub-specialties - We can hold up ALA as an example of this - LSW started as a reaction against structures like that, but it's only normal for people to ask the questions... - awd

I agree and really like LSW the way it is now, but let me just play devil's advocate for a minute. You know how ALA responds to criticism of its weakness as a professional development vehicle by saying "We're not actually about PD," and you know how that feels like a cop out since they *do* some PD and therefore are expected to do it well? What if, because the group is now so big, there's an expectation that it'll find a way to have structure without restriction? (I know, I know. Devil's advocate, remember? - lris' ghost

You don't have to become a Unitarian, you _are_ one: http://www.cuc.ca/newcome... - DJF from twhirl

I hope 'newer' members or members who feel a need for more structure feel free to make up something which helps them feel more comfortable, but I also hope the structures created take into account that there are members who feel no particular need for structure and in some cases actively resist structure/stricture :) - awd

I feel like some of the vitality has left LSW recently and I don't know why. Or maybe activity has shifted away from the Meebo room & twitter to other venues, such as the Shovers and Makers blog. I dunno. - marthalib

martha, I wonder if that's partly because of the difficulties of keeping up with multiple social sites? I know recently I've had more trouble with this, and have pulled back a smidge. What is the central communication vehicle for LSW? FriendFeed? Meebo? Twitter? - Rachel Walden

i think rachel has a good point. because i've drifted away from the meebo chat room, and i'm a peripatetic friendfeed user, i feel like i'm missing a lot of the conversation. i'm glad a lot of you are still using twitter, but even there, i'm just as involved in romancelandia discussions as i am with libraryland ones, so my attention feels split. - Katie

I think convos have shifted away from the main meebo chat room. I see some stuff happening here on FriendFeed room and some seems to happen spontaneously on people's threads, but I wonder if folks have moved to other areas, individual chats/e-mails. Maybe not? - Sir Shuping

Rachel, I agree about the multiple sites. Originally - as Iris mentions- twitter and meebo were key. I don't spend as much time in either place anymore and suspect that others don't either. Also, there are informal social groups that have split off, which is only natural when a group reaches a certain critical mass. With such an anarchic organization, we will get more out of it if we put more in. I think Shovers and Makers is a perfect example of what can happen when someone (carping nerdboys) have a - marthalib

brilliant genius idea and then make it manifest. So, I ask myself: What do I want LSW to be and do and become? Is it still important, relevant and useful enough to me for me to invest time and energy in it? Is it time for newer people to embrace their inner leaders and assert themselves with the virtual spaces? - marthalib

I have to laugh (in a good, amused way) about Rachel's comment and follow ups to it... Walt (Crawford if you need the clarity) has been saying (for quite a long time, iirc) something along these lines... the multiplication of communication channels is actually a detriment to conversations -- too many places to look to be sure one is not missing a piece of what's going on. If LSW does anything 'organizing-wise' it would be to define our main communications channels (pick 3 or 4) and resist adding any more. - awd

Agreed about resisting adding more channels. It's hard to tap into the group discussion if the group is everywhere. - Rachel Walden

It's a problem for sure- even with tools to help follow stuff, at times it's like being a character in a space opera with a squillion info channels open. - Pete

I do agree w/ probs of keeping up w/ multiple channels of communication for the most part. However, is the idea of defining/limiting avenues of comm for an organically-evolved, hive-mind-technophilic-group like this a little dangerous? Once you limit something like that, does it make it harder to evolve to meet ever changing needs, environments & tech? Isn't that one of the main shortcomings of more formally defined orgs like ALA? ps: please don't take "hive-mind-technophilic" to mean "borg-like"! - Dana Longley

Dana, I'm thinking there's probably some middle ground, between "1 official place that must never change to anything else" and having so many places that the usefulness is significantly diluted. What that magic balance is, I'm not sure. - Rachel Walden

Rachel: well-stated! - Dana Longley

At some point I'm actually going to write a blog post in which I "officially" declare that anyone can use the name "Library Society of the World" to do whatever they want, and I'm cool with it, as long as they're cool with me continuing to use it in the mischievous way I've always done. - josh neff, geek at large

Josh- you need a Share- Situationist-Prankster CC licence - Pete

Pete: YES! - josh neff, geek at large

I'm fairly new to LSW, and thoroughly appreciate the conversations I've followed in FriendFeed. Sure there is benefit to thinking about the future of such a group, but all the same, from what I've seen of LSW's existence and inclusiveness it seems that the members will propel it into exactly the direction it needs to go! - Galadriel C.

Hear hear, Galadriel. I would also like to note that while I think this kind of introspection is probably beneficial, I don't think it should go on for too long. Too much introspection, however thoughtful, can kill momentum and initiative and all the things I love about this group. - lris' ghost

oh, sure, get us all introspecting and *then* you say this ;) - marthalib

Yes, well, I never claimed to be consistent. ;-) - lris' ghost

Just like the LSW, Iris! - josh neff, geek at large

zactly - lris' ghost

But Iris, I just twisted around to get a really good view of my navel! ;) - Rachel Walden

LOL. Consider it yoga. Then you'll feel better about it. :-) - lris' ghost

Just wanted to comment on the conversations aspect as it relates to the "W" in LSW. I was/am really keen to be part of this but the time difference and the fact that, unlike @sirexkathyn, I am not a late night person means I keep missing the conversations in the meebo room. At least on FF I can catch up whenever and feel much more part of things. - suelibrarian

I don't know about forcing people to use only 3-4 certain social networking sites. I am sure next year there will be some new awesome communications tool that is *gasp* better than Twitter. As an organization grows, it is natural for people to faction off a little bit, but the nature of the LSW is that it will be the amoeba that shifts and changes by the minute to fit the needs of the members at the moment -- like daily multiple virtual unconferences. - joe is...

I got the meebo room password once but due to timezone issues (like @suelibrarian) missed out on conversations. Then when I tried going back recently it gave me an error - don't know if it's a meebo problem, a "no-one's here anyway" problem, or a "duh, we changed the password *months* ago" problem... - Deborah Fitchett

@deborahfitchett I tried the room at the same time as I was having the meebo widget issues and had issues with the room as well. I think it was meebo at the time. I havent actually tried since.I could get in irregularly but the password was fine and not the issue - suelibrarian

Yeah, Meebo's been a little flaky for a while now, unfortunately. It's really too bad, because it was a great place to hang out (er... especially in U.S. time zones), but due to one thing and another participation there has been a whole lot less consistent in the last couple of months, and I'm as much at fault as anyone in that regard. It's been a while since I last logged in. - lris' ghost

I'm inclined to think that consolidating the communication channels of LSW is totally missing the point. It's organic. It's alive. It's everywhere! Let the conversations and activities of the LSW take place wherever one or more members feel inclined to make them happen. So what if you miss something? You're missing something relevant to you somewhere right now anyway. Let it go. The last thing I'd want the LSW to be is a stress inducer and another source of "keeping current" fail. - Greg Schwartz

Amen - JSNFLMNG

Greg (and Joe)-I want to be clear that I'm not at all advocating forcing anything wrt to channels of communication. I think I just worry that there are LSW channels developing or in existence that I'm not aware of that I'd like to be participating in. Which speaks well of LSW to me. ;) - Rachel Walden

I see. Personally, I do get a little stressed that "I might miss something important," too. I would bet new communications channels will be announced in loads of existing LSWish places. Have you heard of this new Twiter thing? :-) - joe is...

Too bad someone else already got http://twitter.com/lsw - joe is...

Fascinating discussion. Especially the comments about multiple channels diluting conversation. The LSW room was and is wonderful, but like others above I have not been in for several months because I am back in a less amenable timezone. Like others, my attention has shifted between sites, and FriendFeed which was my big thing a month or two again has lessened again as I have gone back to Twitter with tweetdeck. I agree Rachel that if there's something going on I don't know about, I want to know, dammit! :) - Fiona Bradley

What I love about LSW is that it's playful and anarchist in the best sense - which means organizing it would break it, right? But there does seem to be a change dynamic for communities that has to do with size and/or changing memberships. I've experienced it in an old-fashioned Yahoo discussion group and tried to diagnose it. Some intimacy and we-get-all-the-jokes familiarity is strained as people join and some people drift away. It's not necessarily bad, but it does come with a twinge of loss. - barbara fister

This has been most helpful. I didn't really understand it before, but now I can loosely equate it to how Code4Lib got started and flourishes in the library technologist arena. I heard of LSW after it had reached the "A Group" stage, so this summary of its history has been really helpful. - Peter Murray

(jeff)isageek

I love my computer becouse my friends live in it... - http://vi.sualize.us/view...

April 19 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Dobromir Hadzhiev, Rachel Singer Gordon, suelibrarian and 14 other people liked this

Oh that's the truth (sad) - BEX

This hangs above my desk on the wall - Jesse Stay

Jason Griffey

Woot! I just won the Joseph & Mary Jackson award for "achievement in faculty development and distinguished accomplishments"! Cool!

April 16 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Jenica, Rachel Singer Gordon, Jen and 8 other people liked this

Congratulations!!! - lris' ghost

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Congrats! - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Congratulations! - Peter Murray

bravo! - D0r0th34

congrats! - ~Courtney F.

When was the last time someone from the library won that one? I bet you're the first :) go go Griffey - awd

Congratulations! - Jàson Puçkett

Yay! Congratulations! - laura x

congrats - Walt Crawford

Wow - you rock! - Candy Schwartz

David Rothman (☤)

Of course I hate Passover. Try taking PB&J on matzo to school for lunch. For a week. Every year.

April 8 - Comment - Like - Share

Mary Beth Sancomb Moran, John Dupuis, awd and 4 other people liked this

Hmpf, but I *like* PB&J on matzoh - awd

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You wouldn't after being forced to eat it for a week every year. - David Rothman (☤)

My mom was into PB&HONEY on matzoh. Now that's a serious soggy mess. - Rachel Singer Gordon

In elementary school, one of my friend's mothers used to make a giant stack of poori and slap a jar of peanut butter and a jar of jelly on the table. Heaven! - marthalib

This makes me happy my parents were Commies. - josh neff, geek at large

What, Commies don't eat PB&J?!?! How unAmerican. - marthalib

The only thing I ever liked about Passover was the hunt for the afikomen. Mostly because it signaled the end of another dreadful Seder. - David Rothman (☤)

How about taking little container of hummus and dipping the matzoh in that? Or even just taking cheese with you some days. - John Dupuis

John, I'm utterly non-observant now. - David Rothman (☤)

Actually, now that both my sons are 13+, they've decided not to follow the rules for their Passover packed lunches. Last year, my older son observed in solidarity with his younger brother. I'm not Jewish so it's not an issue for me but my wife was a little wistful that they're not going along this year. - John Dupuis

http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Rachel Singer Gordon

Hah! Thanks, Rachel. :) - David Rothman (☤)

Pretty darn unobservant here now too, but semi-wistful my kids won't have those memories... - Rachel Singer Gordon

Completely unobservant. I sorta liked Seders when I was a kid, but the thought of doing one myself is horrifying. And definitely do NOT miss matzo sandwiches. - D0r0th34

We have a 10 minute seder with the in-laws -- preceded by crackers and served with bread, and most years kind of in the same month as Passover, so hey. - Rachel Singer Gordon

20 things to do with Matzah http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archive... - Michael Sauers from twhirl

We were on an orchestra trip during Passover one year. Lotsa matzoh on the bus. As an honorary Jew, I did get offered a kosher brownie. - laura x

Making a note that Laura is an honorary Red Sea Pedestrian. - David Rothman (☤)

This thread kind of makes me want to go buy some matzo after work. - ÉllbeeÇee

I'm starting to think that the Internet is just the latest medium to be controlled by the vast Jewish conspiracy. - DJF

DJF- Liz bought me a copy of The Big Book of Jewish Conspiracies. Very funny stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Big-Boo... - David Rothman (☤)

Try having a birthday during passover -- matzoh-meal cake does NOT make the grade. - Rachel Singer Gordon

I've got a Catholic friend who's birthday is in early April, so it's pretty much always in the middle of Lent. When you're a kid, that's almost as bad. - DJF

David Lee King

Doing a 15 Minute Presentation in 10 Easy Steps « The Other Librarian - http://otherlibrarian.wordpress.com/2009...

April 9 from delicious - Comment - Like - Share

valalalala lala la la, Polly Potter, Mar₭ Liŋdŋer and 3 other people liked this

Archangel ωαřмaiden

Reflection on the Darien Statements - http://guardienne.blogspot.com/2009...

April 7 from Guardienne of the Tomes - Comment - Like - Share

bob, Kendra <3 Three Lions, suelibrarian and 2 other people liked this

Archangel ωαřмaiden

Blog post 1 of 3: http://guardienne.blogspot.com/2009... (On Taiga. Next up: Darien.)

April 6 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon and Meredith liked this

Bravo! Agree completely. re: coll dev - we have a similar model to what you had at UTC and it does make the collection unbalanced - Meredith

Matt Hamilton

Have MLS, Will Travel: How We Got Out of the Library and into Academic IT - http://www.educause.edu/node...

April 4 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon liked this

s t e v e

Now available: Johnson County Library Brain Chips - JoCoLibrary - http://www.jocolibrary.org/templat...

April 1 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

tab thinks you're awesome, Mlibrarianus, CW™ and 9 other people liked this

This is the best thing ever. - s t e v e from Bookmarklet

5 more comments

This is where I want to get my UPC code tattoo. - joe is...

bwahahahahaha! - marthalib

I just can't get over this. So. Funny. - marthalib

I know. Every time I see the photo I crack up again. It is perfect. - s t e v e

I might need to make this my new wallpaper. - marthalib

This geek needs a love button for this. - ♫Geek in the 410♫

Meredith

LIS Publications Wiki - LIS Publications - http://slisapps.sjsu.edu/wikis...

March 31 from delicious - Comment - Like - Share

jambina, joe is..., Richard Akerman and 2 other people liked this

Now there's something I've been looking for for years. Hooray! - Fiona Bradley

That's bloody useful, that is. - D0r0th34

Jenica

Lost - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

April 1 from Flickr favorites - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon, Jen and Julian liked this

jessamyn

which of these is not like the other? - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

March 31 from Flickr - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon and αnnα vαȵ scoyoç liked this

Jill Hurst-Wahl

CIL2009: Random lunch conversation - http://hurstassociates.blogspot.com/2009...

March 31 from Digitization 101 - Comment - Like - Share

s t e v e, Rachel Singer Gordon, Sir Shuping and josh neff, geek at large liked this

What a great story! - josh neff, geek at large

pictures will be uploaded tonight. was truly amazing - ♫Geek in the 410♫

CIL2009

#cil09 Just had dinner with all authors and future authors (like me) of Information Today. We had lots of fun and dinner was great! - http://twitter.com/kselhor...

March 30 from #cil09 - Twitter Search - Comment - Like - Share

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Abigail

Wondering why cable customer service (where I have to enter name and email and phone to start a chat) they ask again for "to whom am I speaking"

March 30 - Comment - Like - Share

B. Hatin, Rachel Singer Gordon and RAPatton liked this

josh neff, geek at large

"Crystal City...which is the travel equivalent of buying a vinyl rather than a leather couch" Iris FTW! http://pegasuslibrarian.blogspot.com/2009...

March 30 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

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Mary DeSive

» I Asked 15 People How They Would Google Headaches, You Won’t Believe The Results - http://www.97thfloor.com/blog...

March 21 from delicious - Comment - Like - Share

Rachel Singer Gordon liked this

I think this illustrates part of our failings as librarians in expecting people to search a "proper" way in our databases - Mary DeSive

Rachel Singer Gordon › Likes