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"we, the users, need to own a technology company -- and have it work to serve our interests..." http://www.scripting.com/stories...

August 11 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

CW™, sofarsoShawn, A Mitchell and 101 other people liked this

yes!:) - K.D.

84 more comments

A crowdsourced company. Don't we call that the government? ;) - Sean Powell

Dave... we have been considering this idea for a number of years, but I think that pulling it together requires more than a geek-army or an open-source collaborative ethos. 'Open' is a mind-set, not a movement... and great egalitarian strategies are possibly best not to be collectively authored, or you can find yourself in the middle of a mega-committee. Its a conundrum... But we are happy to share insights. - Simon Edhouse

Dave/Simon: someone will do it. Why not get started now? - Jason Cronkhite

Totally agree... the core idea that Dave is putting forward has been my 24/7 passion since 2006... and maybe Twitter & Friendfeed (RIP) are going to prove to be catalytic forces for this idea. Certainly Dave is a lot more accessible nowdays... ;) - Simon Edhouse

Simon, maybe with Dave's help we can form a community trust and put the thing together. :-) - Jason Cronkhite

Simon it would not be like that. I'll write a follow-up post. - Dave Winer

I would like to understand the financial vehicles to do this. Simon, I also agree that there has to be a structure that allows for users interests to be aligned with business growth for their benefit and the founders. Too often what happens when investors step in for pure financial return is the goal becomes focused on how to turn the company, "the exit", and not on building a sustainable company to enrich lives of the user base. - Jason Cronkhite

well... to quote Robert Burns, "The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray"... Firstly I totally agree with Dave's other post (i.e. "Rex, you're making it too complicated..") where he outlines the structure of the Public Company... no problem there. I have reasoned out the same model some time ago. - I see it like a series of check-boxes that have to be ticked... and probably... more... - Simon Edhouse

Understand & agree for the most part. RE: BIG IDEA, don't know if it really has to be earth moving all the time but rather something that enough users can stand to benefit from both of using the product and financially. Simon, how about publishing your checklist and trying to get a following around the movement? - Jason Cronkhite

The BIG IDEA is crucial... once you see it, you can't stop thinking about it, and that's what is needed to get massive buy-in. - "get a following around a movement" No... I can't drum that up. I am too small a fish, and not living in a VC hotspot. Dave's the man, if he can control his notorious crankiness (we love you Dave)... However, yes, I can add-value, but who am I? Dave has started to pull together this particular cosmic dust cloud. Let's see if he can truly lead it. - Simon Edhouse

The crowdcorp concept is the way to go, now how do we make it happen? It is tough to manage efficiently the requirements of a community - Alberto Saavedra from Nambu

RE: BIG IDEA, maybe so - maybe not...remains to be seen. RE: you're not the one, it takes powers of 2, lots of passion, determination and as Seth Godin would say a Tribe. Sure, Dave may be one to press the issue forward but this notion requires an ARMY. Dave, maybe you can enlist Scoble and the Building43 community to push this effort. - Jason Cronkhite

[edit] ...There are those on the web that are captivated by their own notoriety, as if being involved in social-networks is a popularity contest. - It isn't. If this project idea falls into the hands of the 'lime-light-seekers', who seem to have short attention cycles, it will rapidly go off-course. (that's my own personal view) - Simon Edhouse

Ah, Simon. I understand you but, this is where the Power of 2 comes in so handy (you need both - the Edhouse's & Scoble's). Keeping people on course and captivated require different talents. Maybe Scoble & Winer are perfect balances. Maybe it's others but more importantly, you need all shapes, colors and credes to do something like this and the power of collective intelligence and influence. - Jason Cronkhite

LOL... maybe we need a Jason Cronkhite too - Simon Edhouse

Its a jigsaw puzzle... but, like those super tricky huge jigsaw puzzle's, to complete it, someone needs to have the picture that encapsulates the final vision. - Simon Edhouse

Agreed Simon! I'm willing to help. - Jason Cronkhite

OK... next we need a money person... who gets it. Someone who can resource this... Its not going to go anywhere much till that person steps up. - Simon Edhouse

They are around. I forwarded a pointer to my piece today with a guy I'm working with on another project. - Dave Winer

Cool Dave. Let's keep the conversation going. I would love to see this happen. - Jason Cronkhite

I have detailed Info-memorandum type docs, and have sent overviews to John Nesheim (http://www.nesheimgroup.com/) who has given the core-ideas his thumbs-up, and offered to introduce me to VCs etc... John is a great guy, very smart and accessible. We had a long Skype chat a while ago... he gets it. - Simon Edhouse

Fantastic Simon! Are VC's really what's needed 1st? - Jason Cronkhite

VCs are probably exactly not what's needed as they (generally) are always thinking of their exit, and being risk-averse by nature they tend to look for 'me-too' plays... (projects that have successful precedents in the marketplace) ... No, an Angel Investor is what's needed. But there still has to be a killer Business Model as money people are always in the business of making more... more... - Simon Edhouse

Not to get ahead of ourselves but, even before an Angel don't we just need a passionate following of people (users of products/services they may want to own)? - Jason Cronkhite

It seems to me what is needed is a platform to evangelize the concept, get people behind the cause. Of course, a financial plan as to how users might contribute to show tangible interest would help in gaining validation and traction for larger investor types. - Jason Cronkhite

well... I instinctively take a different view on that. Not to say you are wrong, I am just really aware of the 'politics' of collaboration, the realities of project 'execution', and the realities and importance of I.P. protection for investors, even if it may become a public company (which by the way is a VERY expensive process to go through and carries with it a raft of responsibilites... more... - Simon Edhouse

point well taken simon, agreed. so, let's see if dave wants to help assemble the core group, open discussion, have a meeting of the minds in-person and push things forward. - Jason Cronkhite

Just opened a private group, "User Ventures" and sent you an invite, Simon/Dave. - Jason Cronkhite

"Jason assembled a great group of heroes, known as the Argonauts after their ship, the Argo. The group of heroes included the Boreads (sons of Boreas, the North Wind) who could fly, Heracles, Philoctetes, Peleus, Telamon, Orpheus, Castor and Pollux, Atalanta, and Euphemus." http://bit.ly/9LTx9 - Simon Edhouse

Very Cool! :-) - Jason Cronkhite

Then we all can start IPO's afterwards :) and sell our life-streams to google. - Chirag Chamoli

Simon, Argo User Ventures is assembled as a group awaiting the rest of the Argonauts :-) - Jason Cronkhite

LOL at the irony of opening a private group for this. - Nick Lothian

Nick, do you plan to contribute? - Jason Cronkhite

Nick, I have no qualms of opening up the group after those who plan to contribute help to establish a framework for the group. Foundations must be part of anything new even user centric organizations. So, if being an active contributor to help users suits you the group needs you and any other user advocate for that matter. - Jason Cronkhite

This company crowdsourced their funding: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009... - Ray Cromwell

Another axis to think about is whether a particular idea even needs to be owned by a single entity, public, or otherwise. Chances are, if you're inventing another communication protocol/network to piggy back on the internet/web and ship data around, it isn't always necessary to have a single point of failure. Rather, you're taking a fault-tolerant network protocol (TCP/IP) and layering... more... - Ray Cromwell

Ray, just reached out to Charles Armstrong of Trampoline. - Jason Cronkhite

Interesting points Ray, and yes, the technology idea you outline is in accord with some of the ideas we have been building on... but inventing another open protocol does not necessarily a profitable people's Company make. - and Nick, as regards the irony of a private discussion... Sometimes you have to be smart... and being 'smart' is also about being prudent and careful., - Simon Edhouse

I agree, but some things are commodities/public goods and not really something that should be walled off just to try and extract profits. (Which I'm not against, I just think there are plenty of other things to make profits on than setting up more toll bridges) Would RSS have taken off if a single company owned it and all feeds had to be hosted through their domain? Maybe, but I think we'd all be worse off than the current situation. - Ray Cromwell

Yes... I agree, and this is a very interesting area. - Probably the only way I can get us out of this log-jam is to go deeper and state that I am interested in two key symbiotic projects. One being an open platform, and the other being a separate (and at arms length) vehicle to redefine the way commercial contacts between buyer and seller, or advertiser/vendor and viewer/client are conducted. - Simon Edhouse

Simon: you are a jerk if you think I do this to "seek the limelight." I shared OTHER PEOPLE'S posts here more than 21,000 times. That is called sharing. I travel the world and point my camera at OTHER PEOPLE. Building communities is hard work and the fact that you have started this project by being an asshole does not bode well for its future. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

I went and looked and Simon never even participated here. Two likes. What a jerk. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Now you're talking Dave. Let's get a publicly owned social media provider. But how? - Mark Essel

Without question I'd like to see something like what Jason and Simon are discussing. I can't help but write about it on a regular basis. Robert I can imagine some who don't follow you regularly may not be familiar with your sharing, constant video/blogging and social media dedication. They could perceive your ubiquity (at least within certain circles) as being a glory hound. I see otherwise. You get it man and we all benefit from your work. - Mark Essel

Mark: I agree, but I won't help a guy who questions my integrity and is a jerk. Maybe if he apologizes. Plus he's already proven he doesn't participate so WTF does he know about building a community? Geesh. - Robert Scoble

If I may... this is a fantastic political opportunity for all of us (bystanders like myself, geeks and users). I can hardly follow half the things you write (although I google most of it), but I watch the process as an experiment on "Open" Democracy through Open Source. My best wishes on its success no matter who partakes. If there is anything a civilian can contribute, please don't hesitate to ... well poke. :-)) - constantinos alexacos

Robert: I'm looking more towards Brian Hendrickson & Dave if this concept is to move forward. I bumped into Brian quite randomly while chatting about open social media, and have been banging my head on some web programming that Brian is sharp enough to explain in a feasible way in short order. If an open crowd funded business is going to develop it'll be on the backs of developers. I hope I get to help out with the movement. - Mark Essel

No, the IPO comes first, before anything else. - Dave Winer

So public buy in before anything to buy into? Seems like tricky timing, but I see the point of that order. Get public ownership and direction driving the business forward from square 1. The IPO legal requirements are pretty involved, can they be met without a business structure? - Mark Essel

Read up on public shell companies. http://www.google.com/search... - Dave Winer

Thanks will do. Jeez this sounds fantastic: http://www.businessfinance.com/public-... The wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Mark Essel

Just to add my two cents: I am a relative small fry here in this big community and have been fortunate enough to have participated in interesting discussions with both Scoble and Dave. Both have found the time (at least to some degree) to engage with me and I have since wondered how they do it (or at least how much time it takes). - Sean Powell

(Part 2) It seems based on these comments that something like this will need EVERYONE to actually be successful. With the advent of these technologies - friendfeed and (dare I say it) twitter - we now how the ability to truly get everyone involved and weigh in on decisions. That is the key here. Then we can help settle questions like: "Who decides where we go? What we do? Who's involved?" That last question should not even be considered. imho - Sean Powell

Gee, calling people "jerks" and "assholes" is just too easy in this kind of forum isn't it? But you know Robert, I did not say that you had no integrity. What I was saying was that, if something like this were to develop in an integral fashion, as in [def:] "...necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental", then its not about obtaining mass publicity first off... which... more... - Simon Edhouse

Simon, you wrote, and I quote "Pleeeeeese.... not Scoble. - Its gonna take buckets of wisdom, and patience and dare I say it, integrity." - Robert Scoble

Dave, the idea of: "...the IPO comes first" baffles me. - IPOs are very expensive, and would only seem to raise the level of risk. - What is the reason that you take that position? - I think great companies are built on great ideas, and without the solid foundation of a 'great idea', I (and other's) would sense that its an ideologically driven foray... Foundations are important. - Simon Edhouse

That, to, me, says you were saying that I didn't have any integrity. - Robert Scoble

Simon: but your last statement is better. I still think your first statement was pretty damn rude, though, and when someone calls you on your rudeness, your first answer should be "I'm sorry." - Robert Scoble

That's what my community website network is all about. See http://Frederick.com for an example. The site is owned by the community. - Craig Shipp

IPO? The IPO market doors have been shut for sometime. Thanks for the chuckle. - cheapsuits

yep... I'm sorry if that offended you, really. Loose words... I don't know you, and you don't know me. Over a coffee, we would probably have a chuckle and find quite a bit of common ground. Please accept my apology. It was an off the cuff remark, poorly executed. - Simon Edhouse

Robert... gee I should have looked at your pic before insulting you! - Lucky I'm on the other side of the planet. ;) (I'm an Aussie, from English stock... fairly reserved, and nowhere near the buzzy west coast of the US. - so on quite a different frequency) - Simon Edhouse

Apology accepted, now we can move on. Thanks! - Robert Scoble

Ok... The trigger for this discussion was Dave's clarion call: ""we, the users, need to own a technology company -- and have it work to serve our interests..." ~ Its a meme that obviously resonates with many. There's been a shift to user-control, and libertarianism rolling forward for years on the web... and the implied friction-point (which is very real) is the tension between the Web... more... - Simon Edhouse

agreed. - Thomas Hawk

Simon / Robert: Glad you guys made up :-) ... Simon, I am interested in your points of view and think there is a lot of merit to the visioning process with great leadership. I think Robert is one of the best evangelists for technology there is and letting the Scobleizer do what he does best has a time and place and I think Robert knows this and I'm sure he can move forward once there is... more... - Jason Cronkhite

Forgive me if I don't understand, but isn't the purpose of a company to make profits? Why not create a foundation akin to Mozilla or Apache instead? The closest service-oriented foundations I can think of are Wikipedia and Archive.org. It becomes interesting to me if we're talking about a services-oriented organization that provides end-user services built on top of existing and future... more... - Ankush Narula from iPhone

Ankush, I think the differentiation is that users contribution to these companies are not being rewarded. Why can the users as well as founders not be rewarded when they are essentially building the value of the company together. Companies cannot become valuable without customers so, they need each other and if users/customer bring up the valuation of the company why not have the... more... - Jason Cronkhite

But what's the end goal? Rewards or integrity? You have to find a balance in any for-profit venture. However, non-profits are driven largely by vision and integrity (ideally speaking). So let me ask some more questions. If you're laying down your money as a user+investor, won't your interests change from time to time? If you actually take a company like this public who controls the... more... - Ankush Narula

Brian... Wikipedia is a pretty good example of a company that operates for its users and is almost totally dependent on its users. However, it has no real business model, but retains a hugely valid place in most of our lives. - There is however an answer to the current dilemma/stalemate that folks here have been yearning for, and it is perfect and simple. In a nut-shell I would call it:... more... - Simon Edhouse

...and now its 4.00am down under, and I have to hit the sack... G'night fellow travellers. - Simon Edhouse

Simon... if we're talking alternatives to client-server the only one that I can think of is true distributed peer-to-peer. So perhaps a collective of such companies working together under an umbrella would be very effective since we would see many various incarnations of user+investor style companies. Interesting... - Ankush Narula

My only concern there, and its a well researched concern, is about secuity of the core protocol. there's a huge amount that can be 'open' on top, but the base transport protocol, sitting on TCP/IP needs to be super-tight, and solid. best kept as a trade secret, inside an ultimately publicy owned Company, that has rules to prevent corporations ever owning more than 10% of the stock. If... more... - Simon Edhouse

Update, I contacted Charles Armstrong, CEO of Trampoline last night and he's interested to join and learn more about this. He may be popping in soon. - Jason Cronkhite

Simon... Check out this presentation on wuala's architecture if/when you have time: http://www.wuala.com/en... - Ankush Narula

Dave ---- If I may comment about your original post sorry!), I found the post pretty inspiring. I advise on social media for an agency (no flames, please) and one of the things I talk about is "sensible" and "realistic" ROI. What I mean is very clear: we're not going to use bullshit metrics like "awareness" or "impressions" to measure whether or not our work had an effect on the brand.... more... - Michael E. Rubin

Ankush... had a quick look, but immediately I see a big discord with what I've been thinking/planning. i.e. "You can upload any file of any size"... that is a continuation of the situation that has got P2P systems into so much trouble, and stigmatized the technolgy. Its great in one sense, but it invites Piracy, copyright theft etc etc. P2P is THE logical system for the internet, (its... more... - Simon Edhouse

Public shell looks like a good alternative, is it too early to bring VRM ideas to the promised land scenario? - Alberto Saavedra

gee, don't get me started on VRM... nice philosophy, but very naive. (uh oh, 4.24am... damn) Bye... - Simon Edhouse

The users owning it - it's the Open Source model! - Marcos Marado from fftogo

Update after hearing back from a finance friend and reading some more on public shells, they have an history of association of use by folks who abuse the system and they are hidden liabilities (I'm still in the dark on those liabilities). - Mark Essel

We touched on 'GOOG' & 'Business Models' yesterday... my observation about the prevailing status quo paradigm for web-advertising is summarised here: http://friendfeed.com/simoned... - Simon Edhouse

hmmm... ok, if the concept of "Web Advertising" elicits such a nonplussed reaction, reflect on this: Contacts between vendor and buyer, and the drawing of these two parties together via promotion or request, is the basic process that 'Advertising' tries to achieve. However, as Danah Boyd highlighted in her December 2007 blog piece, (Who clicks on ads? And what might this mean?),... more... - Simon Edhouse

exactly - sofarsoShawn

Robert Scoble

Glorious Saturday in SF - http://ourdoings.com/roberts...

June 27 from Robert Scoble - Comment - Like - Share

Elena Shuvalova, Arlene Smith G., Bryan Zirkel and 30 other people liked this

Taken from the top of Fort Point underneath the Golden Gate Bridge. Hope you are having fun too. - Robert Scoble

25 more comments

Damn, you lucky, lucky bastard. - Mark

Damn, I wish I lived in SF. I loved my vacation in SF (and California) earlier this month, first time in the US ... wish I could have stayed for years!! - Klaus

sure is a lovely day here in the bay. i was supposed to work this weekend but have put it off thus far. - Donovan Watts

Terribly sorry to hijack the thread chaps and ladies, but is this genuine? http://www.1938media.com/forum... Chris Pirillo is getting divorced?!? - Mark

Looking forward to come to the Bay in a month :-) - Thomas R. Stegelmann

Holy crap Chris Pirillo is divorcing Ponzi:( they are both so lovely http://chris.pirillo.com/persona... - Mark

Mark: yup. Sad. - Robert Scoble

I guess that audio file explains it all. She got sick of him being online all day every day and not spending enough time on her. Hope Gnomedex carries on, one of my favourite confs. - Mark

I am terrified now. Do I have to marry a geek girl to decrease the chances of it all going to hell? Argghh! - Mark

Looks gorgeous in SF. It's gorgeous out here in the East Bay, except it's 30 degrees F warmer (100 on my back porch, 70 in SF according to TWC). - RobinDotNet

Mark: Gnomedex will indeed carry on. Living with geeks is not easy. - Robert Scoble

That's a nice place. Am overdue for a trip to SF. - Chris Baskind

Chris: it is amazing to me that many SF residents never have gone to Fort Point. It is one of the best free things to visit in the world. - Robert Scoble

Robert, have you been to the other side, the Marin headlands, and the battlements? You can almost trouch the bridge. I take all visitors there. - RobinDotNet

Robin: yes, many times. - Robert Scoble

You're hanging out at Ft. Point using your iPhone? Does your family mock you? (Most of my friends aren't tech-y, and they just don't understand.) - RobinDotNet

@Mark, did you listen to the audio all the way through? It's a joke. - Jeff P. Henderson

Then why did Chris announce on his website the day the audio was posted he was getting divorced? - Mark

Wow...Beautiful! I miss living in No Cal!!! - Brandi Madrid

Jeff, that audio track was from April, 2008. - Laura Norvig

San Francisco is one of our most favorite vacation spots. Been to the Fort Point location many times. Great pics! - Bonnie Foster

Robert: Yeah, it's beautiful there. Last time I was in SF, I spent hours walking that area. I particularly like the hill with all the eucalyptus trees just south of where you shot the pictures. - Chris Baskind

Seems like yesterday I was there. Well no two weeks ago and few thousand miles back now. The weather looks great and I love that view back to the city! - Andrew

Robin: my family all has iPhones too. Problem solved! :-) - Robert Scoble

Robert, that's absolutely brilliant. - RobinDotNet

Fort point is nice but where I was better :) I will post pictures in a second. Its a little beach on the coast I know. http://ourdoings.com/lukekil... great day in SF and the coast today. - Luke Kilpatrick

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