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Rene, Pro Button Pusher › Likes
Anatomy of an unsafe abortion « Dr. Jen Gunter - http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012...
Amit Patel, Clare Dibble, qub and 11 other people liked this
"I was in clinic when I heard the overhead STAT page to the emergency room. As I sprinted down the stairs, I ran through the possible scenarios. I wasn’t on call, so the day to day gynecologic emergencies weren’t my purview. I hadn’t operated on anyone in the past few weeks, so unlikely to be one of my own patients with a complication. Logically there was only one conclusion."
- Tudor Bosman
from Bookmarklet
"A vascular system so traumatized by sheer blood loss that it had run haywire and lost the ability to clot. Disseminated intravascular coagulation. This is how many young women die when an abortion goes wrong."
- Tudor Bosman
I'll editorialize: If we outlaw legal abortions, women will die. It's simple.
- Tudor Bosman
What a powerful piece. I'm shaking after reading it. Dr. Gunter's follow-up the next day reveals "the ending" as it were: http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012...
- Stephen Mack
Thanks for sharing!
- esther
Tudor, my grandmother grew up without a mom because my great-grandmother died from an illegal abortion.
- Maggie
:-/
- John (bird whisperer)
"Atheism in America" Godlessness is the last big taboo in the US, where non-believers face discrimination and isolation http://on.ft.com/xftE79 ~ “I’ve been told things like ‘I hope you have an accident, die and go to hell.’ So that’s what I’ve been up against.”
Morton Fox, Iván Abrego, Janet-The Bottley Crue and 20 other people liked this
"Psychotherapist Marlene Winell, who practises in Berkeley, California, specialises in “recovery from harmful religion” and advocates religious trauma syndrome as a psychological diagnosis. “There are so many places in the US that are just saturated with religion. Everything is interwoven – their families, their schools, their business – so that if you were not part of the club, part of the group, you get ostracised and people go through really horrible experiences of not belonging any more.” If that sounds like the experience of leaving a cult, perhaps that’s because, as Winell argues, “in its raw form, fundamentalist Christianity that believes that the Bible is the word of God is basically a giant cult.”
- The Real sofarsoShawn
From the outside, keeping your views to yourself may not seem such a problem. But this is only if you think that it’s easy to live hiding who you really are from almost everyone around you, even close family. Take Matt Elder, who lives in Festus, Missouri (pop. 11,602). When I met him in a downtown St Louis diner, he came across as a cheerful, friendly guy, not someone living under a...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Data backs up anecdote. A now famous University of Minnesota study concluded that Americans ranked atheists lower than Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society”. Nearly 48 per cent said they “would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group” (many more than the next most unpopular category,...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Boo hoo hoo.
- Akiva
That's an interesting reaction. I wonder how that would look under a post about about oppression of e.g. gay people.
- Eivind
Religion is a choice. Being gay isn't. It's kind of rude that you'd try to pair the two.
- Akiva
I know you think it's a choice, but it really isn't. The best I can do is to choose to pretend to believe in your gods.
- Eivind
That's absolutely ridiculous. You really believe that religion is genetic?
- Akiva
I don't know what role genetics play in people's religiosity. Why's that relevant? If I close my eyes and try really hard I still won't believe that you're one of the only real god's chosen people.
- Eivind
You don't know what role genetics play in religion yet you're sure it's not a choice?
- Akiva
I know I can't decide to suddenly believe in one or more of the proposed gods. You don't know what role genetics play in sexual orientation.
- Eivind
So you also think that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Eivind, perhaps you can't, but atheists and agnostics do every day through conversion. That is their choice.
- Kelli H.
What do you mean 'also', Akiva?
- Eivind
Answer the question. Erase the 'also' if it makes you feel more comfortable. Do you believe that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
If religion isn't a choice, doesn't that suggests atheists shouldn't make fun of theists either?
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
I don't think homosexuality is a choice, Akiva. Victor, ...
- Eivind
I don't think either side should make fun of the other.
- Stephen Mack
from iPhone
Why do you think that religion is not a choice then?
- Akiva
I think religion is a choice. People pick and choose those all the time. An atheist, at least this atheist, can't just suddenly decide he now believes in one or more gods, though.
- Eivind
But you earlier typed that religion isn't a choice. You typed specifically 'I know you think it's a choice, but it really isn't.' Can you explain that?
- Akiva
The data seem to show that most people tend to stick to the religion they grew up with, or at least to something similar. Radical conversions aren't common.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
That's not essential to this conversation, Victor. I'm interested in Eivind particularly. I'm a Jewish Buddhist who was raised Catholic because his parents converted before I was born. I have a particularly unique view.
- Akiva
I didn't read your comment carefully enough, Akiva.
- Eivind
You're still not answering the question, Eivind.
- Akiva
I did. I explained why I answered the way I did.
- Eivind
I think it's relevant, Akiva
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
So you believe that religion is genetic?
- Akiva
Victor, you're wrong. You know what they say about statistics. I value Eivind more than that. I refuse to denigrate him. I want to know what HE thinks. I don't care what statistics say.
- Akiva
I am not sure. I can't rule out the possibility that genetics play a part.
- Eivind
And how do you feel about homosexuality?
- Akiva
Or are you admitting that Jews are a race?
- Akiva
It's clearly hereditary. Which is not the same as genetic. But there are structures in the brain that seem to be associated with strength of spiritual belief.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
So it's hereditary but not genetic? Jews are a race but they're not a race?
- Akiva
How can you explain that I'm not Catholic?
- Akiva
Akiva, I don't understand your questions.
- Eivind
Don't act dumb because it's convenient, Eivind. It's unbecoming of someone of your intelligence. Answer. The fucking. Question.
- Akiva
There aren't specific genetic loci that you could look at and say this person belongs to X race. I'm of the opinion that race is more of a cultural concept than a biological concept.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Victor, do you think that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Akiva, I don't think homosexuality is a choice. I think you were right the first time when you pointed out that the discussion regarding sexuality doesn't cleanly map to the discussion regarding theism/atheism
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Thank you. Religion IS a choice. The pressure of parents is a huge thing. It's unbelievably stressful. I refuse to impress my beliefs on my kids. I want them to do what I did, figure it out on their own. I'll support them in their choices regardless of how it might be opposite of I believe. I wonder if Eivind would do the same.
- Akiva
Atheism isn't a choice. I didn't think it would be cool to be the only person I knew that didn't believe in God. I didn't think it would be great to be different from my friends in a way they would never accept. It was a realization. I realized none of it made sense and the questions I had couldn't be answered. I realized I didn't believe. I can't choose to believe again. Choice and genetics aren't the only two options here.
- <3Heather<3
Heather, you really believe that your atheism wasn't choice? That's physically genetic?
- Akiva
It's either genetics or environment.
- Akiva
And, for the record, I absolutely respect atheism. It's far more reasonable than theism.
- Akiva
Reread my last sentence.
- <3Heather<3
Isn't atheism more like a neutral state? It's then a choice to pick (or being forced) some religion on top of that.
- Jemm
Heather, then what are the options?
- Akiva
I'd guess nuetral point would be "community model" your family friends and larger aquantances religious choice. Your reaction as you find your place on the"religion continuum" would be the question. Is it genetics, education, or...?
- WarLord
The word I believe best describes it, is the word used in my post. If you read it you would know it. Or is reading my post an attempting to understand it less desirable then asking me leading questions?
- <3Heather<3
Jemm, often yes. There are atheists, people who simply don't believe in a deity. Then there are atheists who are proselytizers, who believe it is their job to convert people. I'm not down with anyone who thinks they are in a position to dominate other people.
- Akiva
Heather, I'm honestly curious. Do you really want to challenge people rather than educate them? I may have missed your point. I'm simply interested. I value people who have opposing viewpoints. Either you want to help me or you don't.
- Akiva
@Akiva: I agree with that. I was only observing the way of thinking, not how the people act - religious or not. I don't approve of forcing anything, either.
- Jemm
"It was a realization."
- <3Heather<3
Do you believe that your realization is somehow more valuable than other people's realizations?
- Akiva
When did I say or hint at that?
- <3Heather<3
You haven't. I'm just asking.
- Akiva
I believe religion and atheism are choices, and that a good number of people don't realize they've made a choice because they've been indoctrinated since early childhood. Those folx have chosen to go along with their families', friends', community's beliefs. I think that the hate & conflict between religions, and between the religious & atheists, is a big part of what has turned me off when it comes to organized religion in general.
- Starmama
from FFHound(roid)!
Why would you think to ask me that?
- <3Heather<3
Because I'm curious. Will you answer the question?
- Akiva
No. Do you think you're choice in religion is better or makes you a better person then others?
- <3Heather<3
Starmama, proselytization is violent. I don't support it in any form.
- Akiva
Heather, absolutely not. But I'm at least willing to discuss it. You are apparently not. What does that say?
- Akiva
Do you even know my religion?
- Akiva
I am discussing it.
- <3Heather<3
Yet you refuse to answer my question. Why?
- Akiva
I did answer it.
- <3Heather<3
No, you didn't. You know it. You're smarter than that. I'll repeat it: Do you believe that your realization is somehow more valuable than other people's realizations?
- Akiva
Ok, I'll repeat my answer. No.
- <3Heather<3
Crap. Totally misread your answer.
- Akiva
Imagine that.
- <3Heather<3
That's rude. I'm honestly curious about your opinion, I've expressed nothing but respect for it. And you've come back at me as a jerk. I just wanted to understand you.
- Akiva
Oh I'm sorry, I misread your respect for snark and condescension.
- <3Heather<3
Can you prove that? Can you show me one comment I've made toward you that was snarky or condescending?
- Akiva
I said I misread you, you know the same way you snapped at me before realizing you misread me.
- <3Heather<3
And I admitted that in a kind way, deleted my comment, and essentially apologized for it. Then after that, you capitalized on my mistake. I think even your apology was based in sarcasm. I know you don't like me and honestly I don't care. But I try to treat you well. You deserve better than what I do. And I'm sorry about that. Truly.
- Akiva
Listen Akiva, I'm really sorry if you're being a polite gentleman and I'm taking it all wrong. I'm sorry if you're honestly trying to gain understanding and insight into the mind of an atheist. I love knowledge and I have a need to understand people too. I'm also not refreshing the page, I'm intently following the conversation as it happens. If that's caused problems, I'm sorry for that...
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- <3Heather<3
Akiva, is the fucking question about whether Jews are a race or how I feel about homosexuals?
- Eivind
Oh good lord, girl. I don't need you to make me look like a jerk. I'm legendary at that. I'm a total jerk. I hate people. I just think we'd both benefit if we didn't think that we were both out for each other. We don't agree on a lot of things but I absolutely refuse to disrespect you over that. If I didn't surround myself with people who disagree with me, I'd never understand myself.
- Akiva
Hey, Eivind. Welcome back to the conversation! BOTH. I want answers to both.
- Akiva
Thanks for respectfully calling me "girl".
- <3Heather<3
I was being affable! Dammit. You are a girl aren't you? You're a hell of a girl. How is that an insult?
- Akiva
I guess it's not, boy.
- <3Heather<3
Absolutely not. And if you were offended by it, I'm honestly sorry. It's just ... I dunno. Two of my most used phases are 'old boy' and 'old girl'. WHY YOU GOTTA BE SO DIFFICULT.
- Akiva
I feel about homosexuals as I feel about heterosexuals. Most people are good people, and I don't think sexual preference makes a difference. I think 'race' is a somewhat outdated term, and what we describe as different races often maps better to culture than to actual genetics. There are certainly no well defined genetic borders that separate Jews from the rest of us.
- Eivind
Ha ha remember when Shawn posted a link? OMG.
- Akiva
That's actually quite incorrect, Eivind. Jews have diseases that are specifically linked to them.
- Akiva
You also didn't answer the question. Do you think homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Also, do you think that black people are a culture and not a race? Asians? Indians?
- Akiva
It's quite correct, Akiva. It's all a continuum. There aren't any well defined genetic borders anywhere. This doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.
- Eivind
So you believe that a disease is culture-related?
- Akiva
And you believe that black people are a cultural choice rather than a racial one?
- Akiva
Sure, there are single-gene mutations that have higher incidences in Jewish (specifically, Ashkenazi) populations like Tay-Sachs disease or cystic fibrosis, but you can't look at someone's genome and say, well, they're clearly Jewish.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, I don't think you understand genetics very well.
- Eivind
Then why is that disease uniquely bonded to Jewish people?
- Akiva
I'm simply asking a question. Why won't you answer it?
- Akiva
Which disease? Tay-Sachs? Or cystic fibrosis? Non-Jews can be born with those conditions as well.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, for someone trying to gain understanding, you seem to ask very narrow questions instead of letting people tell you what they think. I would imagine if you give people the freedom to express themselves and read it with an open mind, you'll gain much more understanding then selecting specific questions to be answered before moving on.
- <3Heather<3
That's true but Jews are more likely by a huge margin to have Tay-Sachs, for example. By a wide margin.
- Akiva
Heather, I'm just wanting my questions answered. I'm absolutely ready to admit that my questions are wrong. But I always get curious why people refuse to answer questions.
- Akiva
Akiva couldn't that be based on religion or cultural mating selection?
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
There is no one-to-one correspondence between "race" and someone's DNA makeup. There is no "black gene" or "white gene". I don't think it's possible to answer the question you're posing if someone doesn't believe in a biologically-determined concept of race.
- Victor Ganata
Jimminy, possibly. But aren't diseases genetically based? I could be totally wrong on this.
- Akiva
Victor, that's incredibly interesting. Thank you.
- Akiva
While asking questions is legitimate, accusing others of refusing to answer because they didn't respond with THE answer that you chose you would accept before you even asked the question is nonsensical.
- Chris Topher
I just want ANY answer. The refusal of any answer is suspect.
- Akiva
The problem is that the question is loaded with an unwarranted assumption: a biologically determined concept of race. It's a lot like asking someone when they stopped beating their wife.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, yes but Tay-Sachs is going to occur more often in a population if for some reason the population limits it's own breeding patterns to members of a population known to carry recessive genetics for Tay-Sachs. *Tay-Sachs could be replaced with other genetic disorders/diseases if you want.
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
Akiva, do you think European royalty is/was a race? They had hemophilia occurring at an incredibly high rate.
- <3Heather<3
Victor, that's an answer. The lack of an answer? It's suspect. And I'm actually not passive-aggressive. I loathe it. When I ask questions, it's usually because I want to be wrong. I want to be educated. I know I come off as whatever but in reality, I just want to learn.
- Akiva
Heather, I think that's different. And it's insulting. The royals weren't killed because of who they are. I can be killed for who I am. And regardless of Victor's stance in this particular thread, he at one time backed Jewishness as a race. I can be killed for who I am. I didn't choose to be Jewish. It's my heritage. My family was killed in Germany. What does that mean? Why do I get so upset over it?
- Akiva
And why should gays not be allowed to marry? Why should they have been killed as well? And Gypsies?
- Akiva
Anyone can be killed for who they are. And I didn't know death was part of the discussion.
- <3Heather<3
Of course death is part of the conversation. Are you unfamiliar with Jasper, Texas? Are you unfamiliar with women who aren't paid properly because of their gender?
- Akiva
I thought this was about atheism and the discrimination of atheists by theists. I guess I'm on the wrong thread.
- <3Heather<3
Clearly. I want atheists to be treated with the respect that they often don't treat theists. I want atheists to be not afraid, to have equal rights. Atheists can be killed for their convictions. I'm thoroughly shocked at your ignorance. I'm religious yet I am on your side. Good grief.
- Akiva
A lot of things, I think. You have me on your side even though you possibly think I'm an idiot for my beliefs. Yet I'd fight for your beliefs. How does that work?
- Akiva
I think Jimminy's comment here is a valid consideration for the genetic disease factor (and I think Heather's example of the royal family was exactly along those lines): a population that very actively discourages or forbids intermarriage is going to have a higher incidence of particular genetic markers. I think the discussion about culture and race and Judaism is very interesting and...
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- joey
I think it came up as part of the discussion as to what characteristics of a person are and aren't a choice.
- Victor Ganata
Against my will, I agree with joey's comment.
- Akiva
Akiva, I deleted my comment, stop bringing it up.
- <3Heather<3
Ah, okay. Thanks, Victor. Well in that case: I don't have a choice about being perceived as Jewish ethnically and discriminated as such at various points in my life (regardless of whether I had been raised with the religion or culture or not) but I also don't have a choice about not being considered 'part of the tribe' or religiously Jewish (without conversion) because my mother was an...
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- joey
I missed this ^ ... I'll brb I know what Heather's meaning to say about atheism is thati it's arrived at by a sense of skepticism, whic is not just an unwillingness accept staus quo-ism. Skepticism is a provisional aproach to claims. It is the application of reason, not revelation
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
No one cares about your opinion. This is about me and Heather working out our sexual tension.
- Akiva
Hahahaa this may help Akiva :D (i think you should get Eivind some Vday sweets to charm him, all girls love chocolate <3 ... moving along... Reason applied to any and all ideas - no sacred cows allowed. Skepticism is a method requiring doubt, not a position. When we say we are "skeptical," we mean, that we must see compelling evidence before we believe. Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method which is why you find a larger % of atheist scientists than the general populace.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Lastly...Jimminy,Victor, & Joey *nods head* yes is right race has no genetic or biological basis. This has been thoroughly debunked. All human beings have the same ancestors from Africa….Darwin :) The physical diversity of today is purely a function of geographical accidents, climates, isolation, & wndering bands. There is simply no such thing beyond the arbitrary & the artificial of...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Coming late to a thread makes for interesting reading. The whole "it's either a choice or it's genetic" is not quite a correct starting point though. It's not A or B like that. Anything genetic is not rigid programming, just tendencies/predispositions/higher risk. And many non genetic things are nonetheless defining. In all cases, one can go against ones programming (whether genetic or...
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- Iphigenie
Iphigenie speaks in eloquent prose what I have been pondering. Most especially the very last statement: "I see atheists that are as aggressively religious about their beliefs as some of the worst religious bigots"
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
Yeah, ultimately, I think the whole "it's a choice, or it's not" is a false binary. And I have been disgusted by atheists who feel the need to cram their beliefs down other people's throats, but, yeah, they're not necessarily representative, and it certainly doesn't justify persecution.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
It must be tricky in the US where a lot of the social "glue" that's left outside work is religious. People are uncomfortable with atheism, you don't need to say much to make them feel threatened - the more they have given up for their religion, the more threatening you are (same goes for any opinion that requires sacrifice, but religion is the most common). And I also think that some...
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- Iphigenie
Here in Europe atheism isn't such a big deal, but I can imagine what it is like, say, in Bible belt. I think more than anything atheists want to separate church from the state and stop things like Creationism/ID being taught at schools at the expense of real science etc. It's fine, if people want to hold on to their beliefs when it's more of personal thing instead of organized.
- Jemm
As an Atheist, my biggest issue is religion being used to create laws...i.e. gay marriage, abortion, birth control, etc.
- Chris Topher
And keeping laws/traditions in place. And as an untouchable topic.
- <3Heather<3
That ^ was one of my major hang ups, sitting through the preaching in my religious instiutions, temple & church. I always wanted to raise my hand and ask questions. Even when I got to ask whom was speaking afterwards it would go something like this: "Why? It is written!" ~ the ol' "parental because I said so" doesn't cut it when you're supposed to be an omniscent "G_d"
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I think you'll actually find a lot of theists who agree with the goal of preventing this country from becoming a theocracy.
- Victor Ganata
Amen. A theocracy run by anyone besides a deity is not really a theocracy.
- Eric Logan
Yes, people who want to make everything they consider immoral be illegal, and everything they consider moral be compulsory... should be kept as far away from power as possible. Whether they base their sense of morality and values on a god or science.
- Iphigenie
in the 90's when I setup computers, I would occasionally label the C: drive TOO LOUD - see screen shot. Apparently this generated a few support calls long after I had left. #SaturdayFF
☆彡Jazzy-B, kartik vaithyanathan, Michael W. May and 32 other people liked this
Other names ON FIRE - INFECTED - REAL OLD
- Mike Nencetti
HAHAHA I used to name it FOR COOKIE, which only annoyed my mom since she'd change it to something else and I'd change it back.
- Anika
Haha!
- Micah
from FFHound(roid)!
I worked with a guy who used to change the Internet Explorer icon to be Internet Exploder. No one noticed.
- Andy Bakun
I temped at a place where the drives & servers were all named after beers & wines. I asked why one was Sierra Nevada, one was Pyramid, etc and was told what they meant. Then I was told the guy who set em all up was fired for coming back from lunch drunk!
- Starmama
from FFHound(roid)!
When I used to work for Kinkos, I always named the drive THE HARDEST DISK IN THE WEST.
- Akiva
A gift for some friends of ours getting ready to have a baby...figured this was probably the most practical thing I could do for them. <3
Zahra HB, Shevonne, Zulema ⋅ spicy cocoa tart and 4 other people liked this
*cooling now* .... *whew* .... it's been a LONG cooking day.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Pure torture, this!
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
You & Pep...jeeeeeez, you guys...LOL
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Obama riled up Republicans on contraception, and then delivers a knock-out punch. http://j.mp/Ai6TSq
 |
Ken Morley, MoTO Bott, Kamilah Reed (K. Gill) and 11 other people liked this
Love it!
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
I wish I didn't live in a place where this is such a big deal. Such a minor issue taking up major time. We don't even want people to have the option to do stuff that has nothing to do with us. I mean wow.
- Rah-PM 2012
+1 Rah
- Todd Hoff
Remember: contraception can prevent abortions. I bet if altar boys could get pregnant the catholic church would be all for contraception. The male hipocrisy in this is staggering. Also, in real catholic countries like Belgium, Spain, Italy, France and even Ireland, contraception is not an issue at all.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
I'm not a religious expert or anything, but does the bible or anything really even mention contraception? I'm probably opening an entirely vague, volatile, and gray can of worms with that question, huh? LOL
- Rah-PM 2012
Pretty sure if God wants you preggers, a thin bit of latex isnt going to stop him.
- ωαřмaiden ☆TeamOtto☆
my youngest was conceived despite latex and birth control.
- Rah-PM 2012
from Android
Of course, nothing prevents reproduction like having no sex at all. Ever.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
We should know in about 10 minutes if this is any good... http://therearethornstoo.blogspot.com/2012...
edythe, imabonehead, Greg Guitarbuster and 4 other people liked this
Turned out REALLY nice. High protein, low calorie...very filling.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Good grief, gay marriage, inequality, family values, this that and the other. Why the hell are people so scared of the gays?
Mahdi Ebrahimi, Kelli H., Mathew A. Koeneker and 21 other people liked this
everyone needs a scapegoat?
- marthalib
Because they're not like the people pointing the fingers.
- caj needs a haircut
GET AWAY FROM ME YOU MONSTER!! *rolls eyes*
- Mo Kargas
I'm supposed to make a LibGuide today about the MN Marriage Amendment (which would ban same-gender marriage) and I'm supposed to make it "neutral". Ain't nothing neutral about it.
- marthalib
Don't you understand that letting gays marry and have kids and be equals will DESTROY MY LIFE AS A STRAIGHT PERSON??? No? That's not it.... Then I've got nothing, sorry.
- Webgoddess Needs A Drink
I do think it's one of those things that triggers some visceral response in people and granted I'm likely biased, but it's just so freaking ridiculous. Don't people KNOW gays? Have them as cousins? Neighbors? Are we really that different? Geesh.
- Derrick
I wish I knew. I had a discussion about this with a homophobe once, and he told me that tolerance was ruining this country. I didn't even know what to say. I mean, JFC.
- Michelle M
@Derrick - my mom knows several gay folks - I brought home several openly gay friends from college and she was Mrs. June Cleaver - offering food and being nice and such. She even went with me to visit my best friend from college when he opened his art gallery a few years ago. She *still* thinks that - other than those nice boys I met in college - the gays are bad people. I'm not sure how she reconciles that with having a gay brother, but I think that's just denial...
- Webgoddess Needs A Drink
Insecurity in social situations. Modern society has existed so buttoned down on the fact "This is what a man is" and "This is what a woman is" that people are scared of the change. People fear change... and transpose that fear onto those they perceive as forcing that change on them.
- Johnny
from iPhone
My goodness, Webgoddess. :(
- Derrick
Martha, that's horrible. "Neutrality" in librarianship is actually a problem for issues like this, because there very clearly is a wrong side. Does the library provide "balanced" coverage of the equal rights movement?
- DJF
Gays are smarter, funnier, better dressed, and having more sex than we straights are. What's not to hate about that?
- Your Neighbor Steve
Oh ho Derrick - you should have heard the 2 hour lecture I got when I brought home a gay *black* man. Whoo - I'd always thought my dad was less tolerant than my mom. I got educated pretty quick. Mom didn't think I should have any black friends - much less gay ones - while dad just thought that they didn't need to be brought home to our white neighborhood. I could still hang with them, just not bring them home. I'm so glad I managed to turn out the fabulously accepting person I am now... ;)
- Webgoddess Needs A Drink
You should just tell your folks that you're trying to convert the gays.
- DJF
Now we al know why Webgoddess Needs a Drink
- Your Neighbor Steve
I used to deal with this issue all the time when I taught middle school Sunday school at my old church. Our church was always big on the "everyone welcome" thing, but it wasn't true. There was always one group my kids would be able to identify as a group that would not feel welcome in the church. In the later years it was always gay people. There is always a group people will look down on to feel better about themselves.
- Alan
IMO, it is because gay folks make a convenient target that plucks at both/either religious and/or sexual buttons in the less tolerant folks. The objective of any "mass" othering/scare tactic is to produce as much fear and irrational thought as quickly as possible as easily as possible in as many people as possible. Which sucks various monkey parts.
- ♫410 I Coach 'em Up♫
Yeah, I realize that Mo. I just wish that people could see through the plotting. When in doubt, bring up the gays and watch how polarizing people can get.
- Derrick
and the moment you make the connection, you feel like a cynic the rest of your life.
- ♫410 I Coach 'em Up♫
Bigotry is alive and well in this country and I don't know why that is aside from generalities of humans psychology.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
My hypothesis is that a small subgroup of people in this country believe that "Leave it to Beaver" was reality TV. It never existed, it never will & no amount of legislation is going to create it.
- Anne Graham
another problem is that so many people with the extreme beliefs homeschool now so their kids are only learning about the world through the eyes of the parents.
- Alan
Alan, that's exactly one of the things I'm afraid of. Katy had a thread about that exact problem several days ago: http://friendfeed.com/lsw...
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
You may use me as a living witness to the Webgoddess's fabulosity. As for the gay thing? I was just having a similar discussion today over lunch. Obviously exposure has *something* to do with it. But as my lunch companion pointed out, he's known people exposed to "the other" (in this case black people) all their lives who still choose to hate. Whereas his mother was raised by an...
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- MoTO Bott
I think the real hate mongers see acceptance of gays as an erosion of their control/power structures and they don't even understand why they hate it for the most part. Accepting gays to some means religion isn't always right, women are equal, science has merit, whites shouldn't be entitled to more, English isn't the only acceptable language etc... (this is merely a paraphrasing of many salient points above)
- SAM
It's not complicated. Most people fear that which is different from them.
- The original Kevin
the thing is, original K, you can slice that pie so many ways that "differences" ultimately become irrelevant. I think some people just like to hate and use supposed differences as an excuse.
- MoTO Bott
That too.
- The original Kevin
Because they are *told* to be afraid of the gays. Just like they are/were *told* to be afraid of blacks, or jews, or gypsies, or the Irish, or whatever.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
That is very true, B. It is, apparently, a lot easier to hate than to love.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
It does seem so easy to drive folks to hate... Ugh. I wonder what evolutionary purpose hate helped? It must've been useful at some point to kill off other users of resources to move your own group's genetic code forward I guess? Will hate become an evolutionary disadvantage in a more civilized society? Will mean people never get laid one day? (I guess gay folks aren't helping us breed it out of the system!)
- SAM
No, I'm with you Barry. Hate is one of those things I don't really "get".
- SAM
Scalia Asserts Soviet Union’s Constitution Is Better Than Ours (VIDEO) - http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012...
Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Greg Guitarbuster liked this
"Can you imagine the uproar from the right-wing if President Obama ever asserted that our Constitution is worse than the Constitution of the Soviet Union? They’d be using such a statement as proof that Democrats are un-American and would demand his head on a platter. But if a conservative says the same thing, it’s different. Take Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia for instance. During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing the conservative Justice observed that the Soviet Union’s Constitution is better than the United States Constitution."
- Prosey BUTTONS!
""The bill of rights of the former evil empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was much better than ours. I mean it literally. It was much better. We guarantee freedom of speech and of the press, big deal! They guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press of street demonstrations and anyone who is caught trying to suppress criticism of the government will be called to account.”...
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- Prosey BUTTONS!
"Here’s the thing. Our own Constitution guarantees the right to protest, freedom of speech, equality under the law, privacy, religious freedom for all, and a free press. But as the communists of the Soviet Union were wont to do, our Republicans treat those aspects of the Constitution as “just words on paper” that can be ignored and violated at will. Conservative Justices on the Supreme...
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- Prosey BUTTONS!
Can't say I disagree. Of course the Soviet Union's constitution was younger as well.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Catholics Want to Force Non-Catholics to Do as They Do - http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2012...
Joe The Sausage, <3Heather<3 and Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
"You know, the Rude Pundit could understand why Catholics and other religious groups (and opportunistic politicians) would be upset about the Obama administration's HHS decision, which require that all employers who provide health insurance ensure that the policy covers women's contraception, if, say, it required all women working at a Catholic Church-affiliated business or institution to take birth control pills. He could understand if the new rule required that all pills be shaped like Jesus or Mary or eucharists. He could understand (but not sympathize) if the rule also said, "And abortions for all Catholics." But it doesn't. It merely says that, with exceptions like churches, if you provide health insurance, you gotta cover contraception. The rule itself is devoid of any mention of religion. This uproar is over a clarification of the law about how it applies to religion-based employers, like, say DePaul University. Essentially, if Catholic bishops and others get their way, if...
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- Prosey BUTTONS!
(Interestingly, there was also a poll done that showed that a large percentage - near about 50% - of Catholics actually support access to birth control, dogma be damned)
- ωαřмaiden ☆TeamOtto☆
American Catholics especially the younger generation find the dogma of their church a smogasbord to be chosen buffet style, one item at a time. This is particullarly true in sexual and reproductive issues where personal choice very much trumps the pulpit
- WarLord
An Imaginary Encounter - http://therearethornstoo.blogspot.com/2012...
Joe The Sausage, Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Todd Hoff liked this
Sometimes things don't happen *quite* the way our imaginations hope for.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Balloon Juice » They Fucking Hate You - http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012...
.LAG liked that, CW✔, Rene, Pro Button Pusher and 11 other people liked this
"I was a winger for years, and we can discuss that particular psychosis at a later date, but what I can explain to you right now is that they fucking hate you. They just do."
- Steven Perez
from Bookmarklet
"They hate you because you respect gay people as normal human beings. They hate you because you respect African-Americans as normal human beings. They hate you because you respect Asians, Latinos, and everyone else who isn’t a straight white male. They hate you because you respect a woman’s right to choose. They hate you because you respect the right of people to be with who they love....
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- Steven Perez
"They masquerade their bullshit in the words of Jesus and the all-knowing free market, but it is transparent what motivates them. Not love for their fellow man, not love for their fellow citizen, not love for country- what motivates them is hate for the other. You."
- Steven Perez
"They fucking hate you. They want you, and everyone who speaks for you, and every institution that represents your values, whether it be Planned Parenthood or food banks or ACORN- you name it. They want it destroyed. I just do not understand why more people do not recognize this. The Republicans have declared total war on America, and people are responding like this is politics as...
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- Steven Perez
Who are "they" precisely? Is this a gender, race, religion thing?
- Sean McBride
You might want to try clicking on the link, Sean.
- Steven Perez
I can attest that this is true among some of them. I have been to a couple of Dallas County Republican party meetings, and all they need are sheets and/or armbands.
- ha3rvey (Hugs 50% off!)
In your own words, who are "they"? What are we talking about precisely? Which groups? Straight white males, for one? Are they the enemy?
- Sean McBride
Since you seem to be struggling with this, Sean, I'll help you out. Look at that first sentence again. The key word there is "winger". As in "wingnut". I think you might be able to figure out the rest from there.
- Steven Perez
Steven -- what political issues matter most to you? The top three in priority order?
- Sean McBride
Ron Paul and libertarians are unAmerican and unpatriotic. All they care about is themselves, as white, privileged men. Everyone else can drop dead for all they care.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Why, Sean? Were the items enumerated above not enough?
- Steven Perez
Steven -- hey, I'll go first: here are my five most important issues in priority order: 1. Avoid more trillion-dollar foreign wars that bankrupt the American economy 2. Defend the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and prevent the formation of a totalitarian police state and military dictatorship in America. 3. Protect the environment from possibly cataclysmic destruction by human...
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- Sean McBride
Steven -- feel free to share your top 5 most important political issues in priority order -- I'm really curious. After all, this is a political forum. If your issues are top secret and not to be shared here, that's fine.
- Sean McBride
Why do those things matter in the context of the article he posted? Seems to me to have positively nothing to do with the point of the article. The choice to share those things or not to share those things isn't a matter of "top secret"...it's a matter of personal choice that really aren't anyone's to insist upon others sharing. More to the point, they're completely irrelevant to the intent of the posted article.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Prosey, they matter because they can distract from the topic at hand.
- Andrew C (✓)
*grinning at Andrew*
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Prosey -- I think it's useful for participants in political discussion forums to lay out upfront their overall political values, issues and agenda to improve the overall quality of understanding and communication among those participants. Certainly it shouldn't be a requirement to do this, and no one should be nagged about it, but why would any willing member of a political discussion...
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- Sean McBride
I asked Andrew this same question awhile back and he didn't answer. Perhaps he would like to answer now. I would like to know where he and Steven are coming from politically when they express themselves at length in a political forum. I used to think we shared similar values -- now I strongly doubt that. And I think the source of friction here is the relative importance we place on identity politics.
- Sean McBride
It's not about reluctance, it's that it's a transparent attempt to derail the discussion.
- Andrew C (✓)
from Android
Andrew -- are you really under the impression that these discussions follow any kind of logical progression in relation to the opening posts? :) Seriously: look around you. What are your five most important issues by priority? How do they differ from mine? Do any of our top five issues match? None of them? The differences would explain a great deal about the social dynamics here.
- Sean McBride
Sean, do you think I just wandered into this thread by mistake? Do you honestly think that this is the very first time I've engaged someone in a political discussion online? Seriously, man, I've been here on FriendFeed since the lights were turned on. I'm an admin in this room, for pity's sake. If nothing else, that should tell you that my political views are well known to anyone who...
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- Steven Perez
I think asking what principles, issues and priorities are most important is a very valid question. It's how we come to understand our common ground and our differences. It's much easier for me to appreciate and respect someone's stance on an issue, even if it is 180° different than mine, if I understand that it is motivated by a certain principle or priority. Then you can rationally...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
All well and good, LogEx. Which begs the question: what exactly on that list that Cole made does one *not* agree with?
- Steven Perez
The post is admittedly super-hyperbolic, so there's not really much there to have a rational discussion about.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Having met more than a few of the aforementioned wingers, it's not nearly as hyperbolic as one might think, especially given the track record they've left over the last few decades.
- Steven Perez
Ok, sure, I've met my share of right-wingnuts and left-wingnuts, but generalizing that to All Republicans or All Democrats, i.e., roughly a third to a half of the US population? No thanks. I won't get drawn into partisan politics and meaningless labels. Issues and priorities are what's important, and the principles behind them. And rational and reasonable discussion about them.
- Tinfoil 2.0
But how are we to explain Alan Keyes winning 27% of the vote against Obama without the "crazification factor"?
- Andrew C (✓)
from Android
Tinfoil Botts 2.0 -- Exactly! Wonderfully said. Let's figure out our respective political frameworks and how they interact. That is pretty much the main point in conducting any of these discussions -- not to convert others to our point of view.
- Sean McBride
Which bring me back to my question, Sean: exactly what about that list got your dander up?
- Steven Perez
Steven -- I've read many of your posts, but I honestly don't know your top five political issues by priority and how they differ from mine. Why is anyone getting defensive about this question? I don't get it.
- Sean McBride
I, for one, am not defensive. I've been in here for a while, too...much of my proclivities politically are pretty well known, and I feel no need personally to "defend" them, to the point of the posted article. The point of the article spotlights right-wingnuttery...simple as that. We can have different points of view, but what I *haven't* seen is a right wingnut specifically IN this thread arguing any of the (damn near irrefutable) points OF the article.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
But the problem is that much of the political dialog in the US at least is dominated by the extremes. That I believe is intentional, by the political establishment and by the media. That's not what the majority of the population believes. That kind of national dialog divides us. The way forward must be united, compromise, common ground. e.g., Can we agree that: Targeted assassination of...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
Steven -- fair question. Most of the time I am on the same page with impassioned complaints against xenophobia in American culture and politics. This afternoon, for some reason, I was annoyed by the extremity of this passage: "The Republicans have declared total war on America, and people are responding like this is politics as usual. It isn’t. It really isn’t. It’s really all or...
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- Sean McBride
Tinfoil Botts 2.0 -- there we go. I was just able to ascertain that I agree with you on every issue you mentioned. They are all high priority issues for me. So we know from where each of is coming.
- Sean McBride
Your approach is sound, Sean, were it not for two things: (1) the track record of the GOP over the last few decades says that compromise and equanimity are dirty words. I've been watching the GOP since at least high school (late 80's) and nothing they've done since then has shown any attempt to moderate their views. If anything, they regularly throw red meat to an every growing...
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- Steven Perez
The evil and BS isn't exclusive to one party by any stretch of the imagination. The current administration did a 180° from its campaign promises and threw civil liberties (and bits of the Constitution) under the bus. And the Democratic elements of Congress almost threw the internet under the bus (and continues to do so in the guise of ACTA and TPP). The problem isn't one party or the...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
And yet, given that all that you've said is true, one party decided that the best way to perform their duties, in addition to being the usual lying bastards that we expect bought-and-paid-for politicians to be, to dump an extra large pile of rhino dung on those of us who aren't like them. Kinda the same way that a really incompetent fire department not only watches your house burn down, but decides that the best way to put out the fire is by spraying everything down with kerosene.
- Steven Perez
And yet we cheer when "our side" filibusters a bill we don't like, or forbids the other side from doing what they want, or forces the other side to do what they don't want. That's the nature of partisan politics, and it's a trap. It's bread and circuses, and a major distraction from the real problems.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Yes, because God forbid that the crazy elements of a corrupt system are forced to do the right thing, like not treating brown people like chattel. That would just be more partisan politics.
- Steven Perez
Exactly Steven. The best thing to do is leave it up to the states. That way those unseemly brown people would move away from the white South and leave all the good christian white folk at peace, like God and Jesus meant it to be when they founded America. Duh!
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
The whole "both sides do it" thing is tiresome. Yes, no side is perfect, but there are specific concrete points where they differ and stating that anyone choosing one side in self-interest means they're getting played is patronizing. One of the corollaries of John Cole's post is that they know exactly what they're voting for.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
I remember John Boehner getting elected on a platform of creating jobs, and ever since he was voted in he voted AGAINST any kind of job bill. That's the GOP for ya. And libertarians are even worse, because they all think that the federal government shouldn't do a fucking thing in the first place. America, but mostly its politicans and voters, should buy a clue.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
This is precisely why I rarely get into political discussions on Friendfeed any more. Because it always devolves into hyperbole and divisive name-calling. So, fine, all Republicans are corporatist racists, all Democrats are Saints who have the best interests of the disadvantaged at heart in everything they do, and all libertarians are obviously the spawn of the devil. There is no gray,...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
Just because there are shades of gray doesn't mean both sides are equally bad. And mixing metaphors a bit, standing right in the middle between right and wrong doesn't mean you're extra right because both sides disagree with you.
- Andrew C (✓)
I'm not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just asking why we can't have a civil, rational, reasonable discussion on the ISSUES that doesn't end up in hyperbole, generalizations, and mud-slinging?
- Tinfoil 2.0
I'll make a deal with you, LogEx. If and when Obama wins relection, and the Republicans impeach him for having a (D) next to his name, I won't remind you that you asked that question. But I will answer it now, though: because it's hard to have a civil discourse on issues when 27% of the electorate thinks that it's only possible to talk to the other side through the use of a baseball bat.
- Steven Perez
The discussion in this thread seems fairly reasonable to me. I don't think anyone here thinks *every* Republican thinks this way. John Cole specifically mentions the extreme right wing. But "both sides do it" is exactly that: an overgeneralization. It dodges the issues actually being brought up: that one party has candidates that articulate positions that are specifically harmful to women, people-of-color, and people in LGBT community in very concrete ways. So, yeah, let's discuss all that.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Victor, I'm all for discussing the issues, but I don't find hyperbole very helpful to keeping things rational. BTW, I never said both sides do it and that makes it the same. I recognize many differences in the parties' modus operandi (or whatever the proper pluralization of that is), but in a sense it's not terribly relevant unless we just want to continue the status quo. Steven, I'm...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
Why do you think it's nothing but hyperbole? You really think it's impossible that there is a segment of the population that thinks this way?
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
27% who speak only with bats? Seriously?
- Tinfoil 2.0
As for the differences not being terribly relevant, how is that not exactly a "both sides do it" argument?
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Dismissing hyperbole as a valid method of pointing out fundamental flaws has been a staple of writers since Jonathan Swift. Hell, it's the reason why movies like IDIOCRACY remain cult favorites: it's funny (and sad) because, at some level, it's true.
- Steven Perez
Sure, it's funny, and sad, but it doesn't really help a serious dicsussion find the points of agreement, compromise, and true difference.
- Tinfoil 2.0
As for the baseball bat: http://mediamatters.org/researc...
- Steven Perez
When mainstream media types like Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter use eliminationist rhetoric _and are never disciplined for it_, then yeah, the tone of the national conversation from one side has indeed turned to the eliminationist...
- Andrew C (✓)
Victor, what I'm saying is that the system is broken. One side may abuse it more than the other, but it's just as broken. IMHO, we would be better served in the long run if we work on the underlying corruption and broken process, so that the people can once again have a hope of having a say in what their government does or does not do.
- Tinfoil 2.0
http://blog.buzzflash.com/intervi... "This rhetoric is not simply dehumanizing -- it also characterizes its subject as fit only for elimination, expurgation, exile or extermination. So we get frequent references to them as diseases and vermin, or carriers of them, as well as scum or filth of various kinds. We get spoken wishes to purge them, drive them out, do away with them --...
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- Andrew C (✓)
So Ann Coulter, who is almost universally recognized as an extremist, is now suddenly the archetype for 27% of the population? I don't get it.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Sure, ***now*** she is, after she's had her face plastered over every single news outlet for years.
- Steven Perez
The 27% figure comes from Keyes' share of the Keyes-Obama vote. http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005... "Obama vs. Alan Keyes. Keyes was from out of state, so you can eliminate any established political base; both candidates were black, so you can factor out racism; and Keyes was plainly, obviously, completely crazy. Batshit crazy. Head-trauma...
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- Andrew C (✓)
That 27% number, by the way, was pretty close to what Dubya's final poll numbers put him at.
- Steven Perez
Two more things, and then I'm gonna close the book on this: (1) never confuse party identification for a belief structure. "Conservative" and "Republican" are no more interchangeable than "liberal" and "Democrat", no matter what the Sunday Morning Talk Show Idiot Brigade implies; and (2) if your belief structure does not have a baseline belief that no one is a second-class citizen, that...
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- Steven Perez
I find myself in strong agreement with Tinfoil Botts 2.0's remarks above. Two observations:
- Sean McBride
1. Some Friendfeeders can think outside the box of Republicans vs. Democrats and see the big picture; some can't. I find people who can think outside that simplistic and misleading dualism to be much more intellectually interesting than those who can't. That list of celebrities I posted who like Ron Paul? Most of them are very smart and hard to pin down on their politics. Mainly they...
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- Sean McBride
2. Notice how the agenda of Tinfoil Botts 2.0 revolves around the common interests of *all* Americans -- he's not bogged down in identity or special interest politics -- he is focused on the best interests of Americans and American society as a whole. One angry identity group bashing another angry identity group? Boring. Not productive. Far behind the current American culture curve. Identity politics is divisive, time-wasting and self-ghettoizing.
- Sean McBride
Andrew and Steven: I am still curious: what are your five most important political issues in priority order? How do they differ from mine? 1. Avoid more trillion-dollar foreign wars that bankrupt the American economy 2. Defend the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and prevent the formation of a totalitarian police state and military dictatorship in America. 3. Protect the environment...
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- Sean McBride
Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, Sean. Please tell me that you're getting a commission from the Paul campaign. "Hey, Steve! Tell me what you think about this, this and that!" "Why, I happen to think that this, that, that and this are the most pressing things we need to address in this country!" "What a coincidence! Ron Paul believes that this, that and this are, too! You should totally vote...
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- Steven Perez
Steven -- I don't advocate voting for Ron Paul for president. I advocate pushing his views on foreign policy and civil liberties into the political mainstream as much as possible, in both the Republican and Democratic Parties. Is this concept really so difficult to understand?
- Sean McBride
Yes, and the character of Dexter Morgan looks like a nice, kindly soul who believes in fair play and justice - until you get to the part where he's a serial killer. Seriously, man. Turn it off, already.
- Steven Perez
Steven -- you didn't come close to answering my last question to you -- I don't think you get it. This isn't about Ron Paul -- it's about moving American politics in certain directions on certain policies. Everyone knows that Ron Paul isn't going to win the nomination. But he has pushed debate about bankrupting foreign wars and attacks on basic civil liberties into the mainstream.
- Sean McBride
Steven -- how do your top 5 political issues differ from mine?
- Sean McBride
I see you're hazy on the concept of "turn it off". Let me help you with that.
- Steven Perez
Ah, sweet tabloid memories...
Shevonne, Andy Bakun, Rene, Pro Button Pusher and 2 other people liked this
And no, Travis does no way no how resemble this in any way, shape or form ... he may act like it, though ... :P
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Bill O’Reilly & Fox News Fool Their Dumb Christian Republicans, Again - http://truelogic.wordpress.com/2012...
The Real sofarsoShawn, Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Steven Perez liked this
*FACEPALM*
- Prosey BUTTONS!
NO WAI.
- Steven Perez
And even if it were true, this was so last century. The place of debauchery now is Prague and it has been since early 2000s. But I'm sure Billdo didn't get *that* memo yet. Besides, he is just jealous :P
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Well, duh...dincha know "they" do statistics diff'rnt over there than we do here...and *fingers in my ears*...I don't really care about what those people in Amsterdam do anyway no matter how much I point finger at and blather about "them."
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Muslims, reason, homosexuals, filthy degenerates. God rid them & God save America.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
*chuckle* Yay for modified V quotes!
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Right now the war with Iran recedes as a threat. One man pushes back against all the Neo-Cons and Israel firsters. David Axelrod!
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
Leon Panetta, the US Secretary of Defense, is predicting that there is a good chance that Israel will attack Iran soon. The threat of a war with Iran is growing, not receding. And Barack Obama is far too weak to rein in the Israeli government.
- Sean McBride
Somehow I get the impression Sean M is rooting for a war with Iran. I wonder what his vested interest in it is. Why is it this issue that supercedes every other? What is he hiding? (I don't care about his answer, because he will never be honest, only deflective. Nor can I see it, because I still have him delightfully blocked and I certainly do not have a desire to stalk him ...)
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Rene -- why do you think I am rooting for a war with Iran? I think such a war would be ruinous for Americans and probably collapse the US economy (and the European and global economy as well). I made hundreds of posts in opposition to the Iraq War -- my views are perfectly consistent on these matters.
- Sean McBride
I noted elsewhere:Sean is like the amateur magician at a kids birthday party: "look over here" "No, don't look there, look over here" Iran is Seans something "shiny" when Ron Paul does something utterly out of bounds. Problem is that Obama's entire re-election team remember Jummy carter trying to rescue Americans held in Iran and failing in a fiery debacle. They are NOT going there
- WarLord
WarLord -- I keep bringing up an Iran War on the near horizon because the consequences of it would be horrific for every American -- this is a vastly more important issue that arguments about a conceptually muddled phrase. With regard to the probability of that war occurring, you keep repeating the same claim without a shred of evidence. Over the last few days the Obama administration...
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- Sean McBride
What I don't undertand from Sean is how he spectacularly fails to see his delusion. Instead of finding a saner candidate he doubles down on the utterly moronic. I had very little respect for libertarianism, but Sean has made me lose all faith in it, because it is devoid of any kind of humanity and it is only self-serving. It's morally reprehensible. Period.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Ron Paul is the only candidate who strongly opposes more bankrupting foreign wars in the Mideast. If you think that issue is extremely important, and I do, he is the only available choice to support that policy.
- Sean McBride
She so totally rocks! (NSFW) http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Steven Perez liked this
Ron Paul knew about and signed off on the racist newsletters, says former Secretary who still supports him http://feedly.com/k/xffXGk
John (bird whisperer), Steven Perez, Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Joe The Sausage liked this
From the article: "Paul has denied having knowledge of what was in the newsletters on a number of occasions. His campaign denied the accounts of Hathway and others cited in the Post Friday. It seems clear at this point that the newsletters haven’t had a great effect on Paul’s core of support — people who like him just don’t think he’s racist."
- MoTO Bott
Shades of Jeremiah Wright...
- MoTO Bott
But the Paulbots will still say the former secretary is disgruntled in some way, shape or form.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Disgruntled and supportive. OBVIOUSLY on drugs.
- MoTO Bott
Final Four Fools... LMAO
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
Yep. That about sums 'em up.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
(courtesy of https://www.facebook.com/photo...
- Prosey BUTTONS!
The entire GOP field is a trainwreck of epic proportions. If any of these numbnuts is going to be the next president of the USA, the USA will lose all respect in the rest of the world. China and Europe will pull its money and watch the empire cruble to the ground. (Maybe GiGi is not as retarded after all, living in one of the BRIC countries :P)
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
In this sense, I don't mean it with any "American exceptionalism" way...but for the sake of risk to my own country, I don't particularly give a flying fuck about "world respect"...not for any of these particular assclowns. Their presence, and potential risk to every person in this country as far as freedoms and rights are far more important to me than global opinion about the U.S. -- and I'm not dismissing the importance of global opinion in the least.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
Further, any of these guys get the office, their risk to other countries is pretty much just as bad as the dangers they pose to the U.S., come to it.
- Prosey BUTTONS!
The dangers they pose to the US is gigantic. And as a result it will be dangerous to the entire world.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Exactly. Which is why "global opinion" of the U.S., while important, is lower on my list of "important" things, with respect to any one of those guys.
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RT @lindaperrybarr: RT @LOLGOP U.S. Where evangelicals & casino moguls unite to help 3xs-married disgraced-politician-turned-lobbyist lecture us on morality.
Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Friar Will (:^) liked this
No-one is more morally bankrupt than Newt Gingrich.
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
RT @GottaLaff: #CNNdebate #ShortVersion Ron: No matter what you ask me, I'll say it's all about civil liberties, freedom, gold, free markets
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
#CNNClownCar Ron paul is all about property and personal freedom unless you're a female then that uterus isn't your property anymore
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
.@tyecouch And how the fuck is invading a womans body a Libertsarian stance. You Bots are hilarious. Women OWN their bodies not Ron Paul
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
With thanks to Steven...seriously... Death of an Ordinary Housecat - http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread...
Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Steven Perez liked this
I've read this article 4 times now. I am *convinced* that --whatever your political proclivity-- this is a MUST READ.
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Maddow: CNN Botched the Question But Newt's Sex Life is Newsworthy (Hint: Hypocrisy) - http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-...
Rene, Pro Button Pusher and Steven Perez liked this
"The media was eager to score the first five minutes of Thursday's CNN debate as a win for Newt Gingrich, because he used the opportunity of being asked about his former wife's interview on ABC to excoriate John King. Certainly, it got him a standing ovation from the audience, but let's be honest, those jokers actually believe that there *is* a liberal media. But those of us with higher critical thinking skills recognize a fairly desperate deflection, the whole "the best defense is the a strong offense" strategy. As Rachel shows, this is an old standby defense for Gingrich, attacking the media. And luckily in John King and CNN, he had a target that isn't strong or self-possessed enough to retain control of the debate and turn that attack back on him. But that won't always be the case, and whining about it won't get Gingrich out of answering those uncomfortable questions, especially ones that point to his character. And character matters, no matter how badly the guy with a history of...
more...
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And Maddow NAILS it. *nodding*
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And don't think for one moment that Mittens his Super PAC and his echo chmber of surrogates aren't pondering how to best to frame Newties sex life for the voters of FLA and elsewhere for maximum damage to the Big Fig Newts campaign of course
- WarLord
You know what, I think my dad and my brother would probably be libertarians, if libertarianism wasn't so infected with the idea that people-of-color should know their place.
Rene, Pro Button Pusher, Derrick and Scoble, Alex Scoble liked this
I think we'd all be libertarians if we thought that it was a viable political ideology.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
Stay in yo lane.
- Derrick
The whole thing about how the Civil Rights Act is supposed to be Pure Evil? Yeah, that's kind of a minus.
- Victor Ganata
Just a tad.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
But ask my dad or my brother about government regulation.... :D
- Victor Ganata
I remember Tad.
- Derrick
You can be right about the Civil Rights Act being good government regulation and also be right that there's a lot of other government regulation that's just stupid.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
The thing is, my dad's perspective comes from a third world country rife with crony capitalism, so for him, every law is written to benefit a bunch of rich guys and to keep sinecured bureaucrats employed. I used to bat that away with "But, dad, this is America, not the Philippines!" But after the 2000 election, he laughed at me and told me "This is just like the Philippines after all."
- Victor Ganata
Yep, that...and it's not getting any better.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
But, yeah, my dad and my brother aren't exactly down with white supremacy.
- Victor Ganata
Yeah, sounds like they are against anyone having supremacy...I can agree with that.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
#GOPClownCar If you don't "get' that calling our Black President, the "Foodstamp President" is racist, go find a black person to explain it.
Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
RT @kiphampton: I think we've located the source of the time distortion field that keeps trying to suck America back to 19th century. #southcarolina
Kamilah Reed (K. Gill) and Rene, Pro Button Pusher liked this
True enough, though one can argue the gulf between simply “imperfect” and the kind of moral blindness practiced by Gingrich is so wide that not even Newt’s ego could bridge it. Indeed, if the Marianne Gingrich interview bears out the worst of what’s been previewed so far, it’s not so much the fact of the infidelity (well-established at this point)... - http://silas216.tumblr.com/post...
Rene, Pro Button Pusher and WarLord liked this
I’m curious: has Ron Paul never heard of the G.I. Bill? Does he not know the federal government created a “special program” to pay college tuition for a generation of veterans, who then helped use that education to establish the strongest middle class the world has ever seen? Did Paul miss all of this? Or is it a situation in which federal... - http://silas216.tumblr.com/post...
Eivind, Rene, Pro Button Pusher, Andrew C (✓) and 2 other people liked this
You can't expect him to cite something that totally disproves his point :D
- Victor Ganata
I'm shocked, shocked that the ultra-intelligent Ron Paul who I'm repeatedly told is a paragon of predictive prowess got basic historical facts wrong in a way that conveniently served his argument.
- Andrew C (✓)
Gotta love Stephen Fry...
Rene, Pro Button Pusher, ddno نابود باد اسلام, April and 13 other people liked this
I am not offended by that
- SteVe C
*grin*
- Prosey BUTTONS!
You can't be offended unless you choose to be. Not everyone chooses wisely.
- April
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