Quote: "It came up in other sessions by way of power dynamics, and was very much a recurring theme. To me it was the main theme to come out of the conference (cultural differences coming a very close second). It was intertwined with prestigious blogging gigs, the influence of the big gorilla bloggers on the block, and the need for many of us to seek some legitimate recognition of what we do on a blog. If blogging is a subversive activity, then that attitude is the product of a power relationship between us and those who don't 'get it'. If blogging is a legitimate activity then we may hold position in a different power dynamic." - Maxine from Bookmarklet

Who is that gorilla? I think I know but is anyone going to speak the name or is it going to remain HWMNBN? (aka Lord Voldemort). (Not SWMBO - She Who Must Be Obeyed.) - Maxine

I think it was being used figuratively. I don't think she meant Henry. - Bob O'Hara

It wasn't Henry I was thinking of! - Maxine

I hope it wasn't me either! One obvious candidate for HWMNBN was snowed in, so wasn't at the meeting. It's clear that a lot of people aren't impressed with him, after last year's games over the sacred nibbles. - Bob O'Hara

No, it wasn't you either, Bob ;-) [And I do not know if it is the other person as I do not know who was snowed in.] - Maxine

I don't think she was talking about a particular person as a troll, but power, which can be very real and present when you get people together who have it with those who don't... - Christina Pikas

I do actually realise that, Christina and Bob - my point is that one often reads these kinds of vague accusations, all part of the "in" nature of blogging - not getting at Propter Doc in particular by any means, her post is just an example of many others, by many other people. I actually don't have a clue about who these gorillas are, so the point is totally lost on me. This is really what I was getting at when I was playing around saying "who is the gorilla". I don't think that vague accusations get anyone anywhere. Anyone propose solutions? - Maxine

Just to point out - I was trying to capture the essence of a cliche with the comment - not reflect reality or even say what I think is the case - Cameron Neylon

I sure hope it wasn't me. If it was, it must have been completely inadvertent. Just tell me, please, and I'll close down my blog and go away. - Henry Gee

Actually I am quite distressed that anyone would think it was me. I had a super time at sci online, so if I have offended anyone I must be completely unable to judge social situations. - Henry Gee

No, you're fine Henry, no need to doubt your social competence. It probably was more your physical likeness to a Gorilla /me ducks and runs :-) - Björn Brembs

Well, now I am seriously pissed off. It's one thing to be pseudonymous in a blog but another to be so allusive that it causes all this head-scratching, self-doubt and worry. Really I am quite offended. - Henry Gee

Oh my! Henry, it's not you. I use gorilla in the sense that Eva tries to explain (thanks Eva!). Some bloggers have quite the cult following, and when they jump on an issue, it is like everything else is overwhelmed, much like I'd be if a gorilla suddenly walked into my office. - propter doc

@Henry and Maxine: as I wrote it I didn't realize it would be so obscure. I didn't intend to cause head-scratching and self-doubt and worry. I'm sorry :-( - propter doc

Another appropriate definition of gorilla would be in the sense of Guerrilla warfare, where some bloggers use certain tactics to make a stronger point, or pick a specific fight in order to make a stronger point. It is difficult to stand up to that when one disagrees with the point that is being made - propter doc

I said that in the session - sometimes we are not aware how much power we can have if/when we en masse attack something/someone. We need to use that power with great thought and care. - Bora Zivkovic

Ok. All this comes after a trying evening in which I have tried and failed to fix my wife's office computer, essentially acting as her firm's unpaid IT consultant. Sometimes I wish computers (and the interwebz) were abolished. - Henry Gee

where would the fun be then? We'd all have to get carrier pigeons and communicate that way ;-) - propter doc

Interesting responses from a bunch of scientists - for my part, I don't need Eva et al to re-explain the post to me, though I do appreciate the spirit in which it is meant. I was trying to make quite a different point - the blogosphere is full of these vague accusations and judgements - whether as here about un-named trolls and gorillas, or elsewhere that Nature Network is cliquey and full of wannabe novelists, etc. My view is that these types of vague innuendo are not useful, in fact I find them counterproductive. If someone has a point to make, it would be good if they made it - clearly and with evidence - if they are a science blogger they should know how to do that. This would be much clearer and cleaner than judgements on swathes of other (unnamed) people. I guess to some extent, blogging is just like that - but I am always hearing from people who say that science bloggers are "different" "serious" etc - so why does all this go on? Because it gets lots of attention I suppose. - Maxine

PS Eva: "being on a blog network where the most popular few blogs ARE written by novelists" - are you sure about that? I am aware of one popular blogger on NN who has just had a first novel published. I am not aware of others, although at least one has self-published novels. Given that there are a great number of blogs at NN, many popular ones, by people who so far as I know don't write novels, I think that comment is not proven! - Maxine

Jenny Rohn has had a novel published (and very fine it is). I've had one on lulu.com and have others in progess. There might be more but so far that's N=2 out of approx 20 regular NN blogs. - Henry Gee

"the blogosphere is full of these vague accusations and judgements" -- I'd like to see a few more examples before I'd consider that statement well founded. Since we're all about the evidence and all. (Edit: this comment prompted by the fact that I'm inclined to agree with you, Maxine, but cannot think of further examples myself.) - Bill Hooker

@Henry: I feel your pain. I live in the shadow of my unmedicated years, and am never sure I *haven't* fucked up horribly in social situations. It doesn't take much to bring my paranoia to the fore. So fwiw, I found you a most congenial and entertaining presence at the conference (and do not think you much resemble a gorilla, either!). - Bill Hooker

Oh Ok, I'll collect some up, Bill. But it has struck me ever since I started reading blogs - it is the "big difference" between blogs and edited, published material, in my opinion and experience. And as mentioned right at the top of this thread, I did not think Henry either. (gorilla wise). - Maxine

@Henry- just saw your arithmetic about the novelists. This exactly matches my arithmetic in the comment immediately above yours. So 1 published novelist and 1 self-published novelist out of NN blogs - I'd say there are more like 40 regular ones (based on my RSS reader) and a lot more irregular ones. Of course some might be novelists, but they don't write on NN about that aspect of their lives if so. - Maxine

It does illustrate a point made at the conference - that the doings of the more active bloggers on a network might give those outside an erroneous impression of the network as a whole. Jenny's blog attracts lots of comments; mine attracts fewer comments but ( I am told) a larger volume of traffic than most. We both discuss our writing. QED. Similarly I had always imagined Scienceblogs a generally hawkish place but found at SciOnline that they are as congenial a bunch as NN bloggers. The false impression - Henry Gee

... Is probably a result of the notoriety of Pharyngula, and this (the false impression, if not the notoriety) is a cause for concern for some ScienceBloggers, which they seemed eager to discuss (PZ wasn't there to defend himself, but perhaps if he had, people wouldn't have spoken so freely, who knows? - Henry Gee

Hahah. Guilty as charged. *blush* - Richard P Grant

@Maxine "it is the "big difference" between blogs and edited, published material, in my opinion and experience" I think I understand your initial question more now. I don't think the difference is always a bad thing though, the difference between primary science literature and a new scientist article and a blog post on the same topic is fine with me, different audiences and all. I'd suggest that my post should be related to the gossip columns and opinion pieces rather than anything based on facts. - propter doc

Yes, Propter - my blog is head of the queue for being ephemeral and light (not much gossip). I don't take it seriously. But a lot of science bloggers seem to do so (take themselves seriously). Let me assure you that I am not talking about your excellent blog here. But I have started and stopped reading so many so-called science blogs because the blogger takes him or herself very seriously indeed, yet writes unrigorous (in various ways) posts. @Eva and co - Richard may be a novelist but he does not write about that on his blog so far as I know. Novels do take up a tiny fraction of the total output of Nature Network as all regular users well know. Possibly more NN words have been expended in aggregate on Harry Potter/JK Rowling than on any of the novels that NN users might write. - Maxine

Henry - re your comments about the SciBlogs people being friendly in person despite your expectations. As we discussed recently (and previously many times!) on NN, part of this is the "whites of eyes" (as Corie calls it) effect - people are always milder in person than when they are firing missives into the aether. And part of it to my mind is that a lot of the "ranty, aggressive" stuff I have seen at SciBlogs is in the comment threads (which can get extremly virulent) compared with the blog posts themselves - though sometimes some of the bloggers join in these, presumably most of the aggrocommenters are not SciBloggers but external visitors to the site. - Maxine

"people are always milder in person than when they are firing missives into the aether" -- I try not to do this. I honestly think I am just as obnoxious in person. :-) - Bill Hooker

"Richard may be a novelist but he does not write about that on his blog so far as I know." — so what you're saying is, you don't read my blog :D - Richard P Grant

Maybe I should say "he doesn't promote his novel on his blog" ;-) - Maxine

@Bill - remind me not to meet you, then ;-). Seriously, it is very marked how reasonable, shy even, people are when you meet them or talk to them, when previously they have been writing all kinds of strident and worse stuff in emails or online. - Maxine