Personally, am not convinced of some of the assumptions, e.g. "...Both are unfortunate, but are parts of the current culture [reference to sharing early lab results]. Any network that hopes to succeed must adapt to the culture of the community, rather than trying to rewrite it." First, though likely rare, I think there are instances where culture gets "re-written" -- another perspective is that this form of communication provides an alternative to established routes. That is, does not replace them but adds to the diversity of communication means.
- Mickey Schafer
The only thing I really disagree with here is that I think there will be a shift towards more open approaches as more examples of success show up. Then everyone will go over the edge like lemmings and there will be a backlash again but by then the funders will be piling in with conditions to push things forward.
- Cameron Neylon
<cynical>It doesn't matter what the scientists think. What matters is what the funders demand of them.</cynical> Open science doesn't really depend on "[online] social networks" and never has. It's true that most open-science sorts are active social networkers, but when the rubber hits the road, I don't care who's on FriendFeed -- I care who's sharing data. If the funders demand the latter and not the former, good on 'em. Behavior will shift accordingly.
- D0r0th34
But the funders are the scientists in most cases - so a mixture of pushing from within the community - as well as top down mandates will get us there. The question is how to get the funders into a position where they feel bound to impose mandates _and_ provide the infrastructure that makes it possible to observe them...?
- Cameron Neylon
Mmm, I'm not sure I agree. Funding infrastructure relies on a fair amount of scientist labor, yes -- but it's not career scientists who have been calling the funder shots; it's been top-level administrators (some of whom are ex-scientists, admittedly) looking at bottom lines. The Wellcome Trust mandate didn't come from scientists. Neither did the NIH policy. <cynical>One can't rely on scientists for effective science policy.</cynical>
- D0r0th34
Fair enough. UK Research Councils case is more nuanced. Even Wellcome Trust policy was driven to a certain extent by the fundees or at least not in the face of belligerent opposition from them. But comparing the independent funders like Wellcome to the Research Councils (run more by councils of academics) is instructive.
- Cameron Neylon
I thought the spin on your lovely shout out for Medeley on ch 4 news was interesting, Cameron (nice monitors btw!). 'government backing for innovators to meet and share' was the message. Have you had any responses to that yet? Maybe systems like Mendeley will be the things that start to crack the nut of social networking for scientists? I'm not sure it's a killer app, more the thin end of the wedge...
- Jo Badge
Shorter DC: I don't like social networks or spend any time on them, so they must be useless.
- Bill Hooker
I'm afraid they're not my monitors but those for the control room for one of the instruments (not incidentally the one that got filmed in the piece - but at least there was no blue liquid!) But they are in fact necessary to keep the instrument running and processing data efficiently.
- Cameron Neylon
I can imagine a report from 1670, a full five years after the creation of academic journals, concluding that virtually no scientists were using academic journals as a matter of course, and thus they are useless. (Technological progress has sped up a lot since 1670, of course. But social change isn't all that much faster, in my opinion. And this is fundamentally a social change.)
- Michael Nielsen
I think we also tend to forget the granddaddy social software: email. In some fields there are tremendously active listservs that have been around for over a decade especially at research universities where faculty got email before it really caught on in the wider world. What evidence would convince a scientist that Facebook, LinkedIn or Twitter offer better communication opportunities than an archived listserv?
- Jenny Reiswig
Well, aren't most scientists using email as "communication opportunities" and nothing else? (social network, listserv etc)?
- Maxine
were observations limited to sites specifically designed for scientists? perhaps to the exclusion of other significant mainstream platforms like facebook or twitter
- Mike Chelen
Jenny: it might be better to gauge usage based either on features such as address book management or by traffic metrics such as size of audience
- Mike Chelen
I haven't tried it myself, but some dissatisfaction from my colleagues when they did. Safari on the iPod touch seems to do a reasonable job with Wave (ignore the warnings and click through), but lacks notification of course.
- AJCann
Google Wave on the iPhone is really slow, even over WiFi. Waveboard for the Mac solves a small but important problem: it is tricky to get the ID of a Wave from the browser. You need the ID for linking. Expect many more Wave applications 6-12 months from now.
- Martin Fenner
Am waiting for Wave to speed up on android as well. You'd think with Wave and Android both being from the Google stable it'd be quicker, but no...
- Jan Aerts
This week seems to haveagain seen a significant increase in Wave users. I can now reach a lot if not most Science 2.0 people via Wave. I have a few Wave invites left, please drop me a note if you still need one.
- Martin Fenner
On a slightly smaller scale, I had a similar feeling while working in a similarly recent town in South Korea - projected for perhaps half a million, inhabited by a few tens of thousands when I was there in 2007 and had been a village until a few years before.
- Daniel Mietchen
"So what are we proposing? We will phase out project and programme grants and instead, extend the model of fellowship support to researchers who are salaried by their university or research institute. "
- Daniel Mietchen
"We look to the scientific community to bring us their best ideas." - looks like an invite for another round of Fantasy Science Funding (this time from the perspective of the Wellcome Trust).
- Daniel Mietchen
Having been a Wellcome Trust International Travelling Fellow I've appreciated Wellcome's visionary approach to funding, and applaud their initiative here. This isn't a fantasy, this is Wellcome, and it will happen...
- Richard Badge
I agree, I don't think this is fantasy. They will do what they say. Few, the light is finally dawning.
- Jo Badge
For background on Fantasy Science Funding, see http://ways.org/en... . This piece shall also serve as a basis for an upcoming post on "What would research funding look like if it were invented today?" ( http://ff.im/9SvED ) which is intended to contain a general analysis of the funding situation, combined with some specific examples....
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- Daniel Mietchen
this looks bit but I don't really understand what it means in practice. You apply for a fellowship but does that not mean that you still are asking for the resources for a defined programme of work? If slightly less tightly defined? Will be interested to see what this means in detailed terms.
- Cameron Neylon
Critique: An inward-looking scheme which must eventually collapse due to failure to recruit new talent (and lack of a proper career structure will speed that up). Bye bye UK science.
- AJCann
I would suggest to them to do a significant part of the review process in the open, and to abandon it for some control group that meets basic eligibility criteria.
- Daniel Mietchen
@ajcann cynic ;-) what do you propose instead then? At least they are trying to acknowledge that science is done by good people with good ideas, giving them the freedom to follow those ideas to their logical conclusions and not to a pre-determined end point that you can only guess at.
- Jo Badge
But this strategy cannot be successful in the long term as it is anti-innovative and will inevitably degenerate into an old boys club.
- AJCann
@ AJCann: It has already gone much of that way, and I interpret Walport's piece as a sign of consciousness of the matter and an invitation for constructive criticism, albeit he seems to be very concerned about the opinions of other funders.
- Daniel Mietchen
The Wellcome trust is certainly one of the organizations that are most upfront (and sometimes brutal) in saying what they want and being forceful in maximizing their return on investment. I would certainly give them the benefit of the doubt to some extent on this one. But there is also something of a perception that it is something of a closed club. Partly this is down to a conscious...
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- Cameron Neylon
Yes, but not a viable strategy for UK science overall. It works for Wellcome as long as they can cannibalize the fresh talent funded by someone else. It won't work over the longer term is all (or most) agencies go down this route.
- AJCann
@ajcann you'd rather have two strikes and you're out ala epsrc?
- Jo Badge
from iPod
Well at least junior researchers can apply for an EPSRC grant.
- AJCann
Alan, let me ask the tough question - _is_ there a viable strategy for UK science overall? As in a strategy that views UK science in isolation? Having just got back from China I've got to say it certainly feels like we're toast unless we build our personnel and physical infrastructure in a bigger framework.
- Cameron Neylon
Probably not at the present/proposed levels of funding and considering what is being asked. Developing economies regard fundamental research as a route to prosperity. Decaying economies seems to regard science funding as a drain. It would be possible to fund selected areas, e.g. sustainable technologies, healthcare, and focus limited funding, but in this proposal inadequate funding is...
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- AJCann
It's interesting how explicit that is in the China case. The spending of money to speed development as well as to bring people back to support this. Building a new campus expected to house 20,000 scientists in a five year timeframe just doesn't seem to bother them. At the same time the heirachical and top down nature of the society and organization of their science doesn't seem to support radical developments. Will be very interesting to watch though.
- Cameron Neylon
Many of you know I've been working with Mendeley as a sort of ambassador/community liaison. I started this because I've always felt a little shut out from contributing to open science/open access/open data because I don't work for a publisher, don't really write code, and wasn't in a job where I could openly share data. This was a way to influence how things develop by promoting the people who "get it".
- Mr. Gunn
I had to quit for the "real job" a little while back and found not only that I had more time to work for Mendeley, but that I started getting other offers/opportunities also.
- Mr. Gunn
Now I've got a newborn daughter and am liking the time I can spend at home with her, which raises the following conundrum: Can I do more of this community liaison work for companies that support/promote open access and put my research career on hold, or is there not any future in this?
- Mr. Gunn
Can I trust the friends and colleagues I've met on here to be able to have a real discussion with me, keep me honest, and tell me if I'm backing the wrong horse as I take on more clients, or would I be considered a sell-out? Would people believe that my opinions still come from me and my experiences, or would people just think "You're only saying/supporting that because they're paying...
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- Mr. Gunn
Do you think there's room to grow in this kind of role or am I just wishfully thinking that I can make my own job in this tough economy and get to spend time with my daughter too?
- Mr. Gunn
I really believe this is a way I can contribute to changing how science is being done, opening up the process, disintermediating scientific discovery, and all those noble sounding things, but do you buy it, or do you think I'll not only become corrupted by money but lose my relevance because I'm not really doing science anymore?
- Mr. Gunn
Can I help companies that don't quite get it to improve and become better and more responsive to their community of users or will I lose touch?
- Mr. Gunn
I will be saying nothing works better than inspiring people by setting examples, I will not go with holding my research career even it is not working well as long as I have passion for discovering something. But there are certain realities and money is one of them. Ambassador/community liaisoning is other way to contribute back to the science, but it will be too early to give up your...
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- Abhishek Tiwari
Mr. Gunn. You can absolutely do so, but as you note, you cannot do this with one client. It will have to be a consulting/pundit role (you should probably have a chat with Paul Miller at some point http://cloudofdata.com). The life science industry will be challenging given the limited opportunities, and in this economy, this will not be a walk in the park. As to whether you have to be...
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- Deepak Singh
And we'll tell you if you're being an idiot. It also depends on what you really want to earn. You're not going to get rich doing this, at least not quickly.
- Deepak Singh
Abhishek, I could cite all the times when I've recommended Papers or Zotero instead because it really was better for what the person was looking for as evidence that I don't always have to say what the official line is, but that wouldn't illustrate all the discussions I've had where the company point of view _became_ my point of view. This is exactly the kind of discussion I want to be...
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- Mr. Gunn
Thanks Deepak. I know you will, and I'm not looking to get rich. I'm looking to do work for people I believe it, be a force for good, and at least for the moment, spend more time at home with my daughter.
- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, it will only taint it if you let it, although there will people who'll always be skeptical. As long as you are honest and present your point of view rationally, you'll be fine
- Deepak Singh
I'd like to think that being open and transparent online helps illustrate my biases, too.
- Mr. Gunn
Way outside my area of expertise, but I would think the "consulting/pundit" thing that Deepak mentions would involve lots of travel, especially to start. Not sure how conducive that is to spending more time at home...
- Andrew Su
Andrew, missed that bit. There would be a fair bit of travel
- Deepak Singh
from iPhone
Tough call MrG. I'm not concerned about you selling out, plus I will call you out if I think you are sliding into that trap (as, I'm sure, will the rest of the FF posse). My larger concern would be whether you can make a living that way. Is there a more regular (but part-time) gig that you could get to buffer the difficulties of forging a new path? For instance, do you write easily and...
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- Bill Hooker
Having a part-time gig would allow you more freedom to take risks and experiment, and could be phased out as and when your liaison/consulting work grew.
- Bill Hooker
Bill, that's a really great idea. My current commitments are only part-time, so having something more steady would both help the bottom line and insulate me from selling-out criticism - "I don't need to do this." Please, put me in touch.
- Mr. Gunn
the ultimate evidence for or against bias is behavior, would such a position restrict or inhibit assuming a critical perspective?
- Mike Chelen
What fun would that be, Mike? I just wanted to do a sanity check against my friends and colleagues here to make sure that at least some of them would promise to call me out if I started to not make any sense or drift away from the principles of openness this community takes as a fundamental principle.
- Mr. Gunn
Interesting situation! My take is that people who have no history of interaction with you, will not spend a lot of time looking you up online. As soon as they know you're being paid to do this, you'll be a sales rep - which means there isn't even any need to look you up, they already know who/what you are. Thus, IMHO, no online history will get you out of the sales rep box.
- Björn Brembs
I agree with Bill's suggestion, and also his non-worry about bias. Or rather, we're all biased, but you don't come across as a sell-out company mouthpiece to those who know you, so you can let that slide. Bjorn isn't tender, but he's right. Either way, you won't change it by adding on more opportunities to be a facilitator. And forging your own path to be more with your family - having been there, I would say you won't regret it later. One always has career regrets, but that's because we only have one life.
- Heather
Mr. Gunn. A full time liaison for a company will effectively make you sort of a sales rep. I have been a sales rep myself - which was a valuable learning experience, but I suspect, like me, not one you would fit comfortable into for a longer period of time (several years). When I left university, my friends and colleagues told me that I had a time-limit of 1-2 years to get back into...
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- Nils Reinton
Thanks, Nils, Heather, Björn. My intent is not to work full-time for a specific company, and I'm not doing that now. My intent is also to talk more about ideas and trends and less about specific products. Although I do spend a fair amount of time recommending Mendeley, I think Zotero shares their mission and I just personally prefer Mendeley. I used Zotero to write my first paper and it came down to me just wanting a desktop, full-screen app instead of their browser add on.
- Mr. Gunn
Björn - We all have our various reasons to believe what we do and say what we do. In my role, I'm not being paid to say anything or to have a certain opinion. In fact, I think where I disagree with the Mendeley guys is more valuable to them than where I agree, because what they're basically paying me for is my insights as a scientist who knows the field and keeps current with...
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- Mr. Gunn
I know I can't speak for anyone, and I'm not appointing myself spokesperson, but if I spend a lot of time listening to, talking about, and synthesizing ideas, and I can also effectively market those ideas to people who need to hear them (that is, companies who want to listen and adapt), isn't that a win? Couldn't that be my way to make a positive contribution to open access and linked data and personalized medicine and these causes that I already believe passionately in?
- Mr. Gunn
"Couldn't that be my way to make a positive contribution to open access and linked data and personalized medicine and these causes that I already believe passionately in?" YES, absolutely, you are already doing this very well. If you can make a living out of it, I salute you :-)
- Nils Reinton
Perhaps consider not just consultancy for companies, but also undertake work for public sector agencies (major libraries or funders), charities or not-for-profit companies.
- Frank Norman
Mr. Gunn - sure I think such a person would definitely be worthwhile to us! I was referring to people who do not know you: if you approach them and tell them you work for company X, my bet is that most of them will think "ah, he's a failed scientist trying to get me to use their products". Of course, this doesn't stop people from using company X's products (or sales reps would die out...
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- Björn Brembs
this is a great thread, Mr. Gunn, cheers for starting it, very interesting points, everyone; I would like to second Nils and Frank, and I think that some journals might also be interested in your advice (and community liaison work) and that this would certainly be a great service for anyone near to being an OA and linked data addict - isn't this a pretty wide range of users? we might create a list of arguments that you might wish to choose from when talking to journal publishers - test them on me ;-)
- Claudia Koltzenburg
Mr Gunn...you might know me from the ChemSpider system. For almost 3 years ChemSpider was run as a "for the community" project at my cost. i.e. My wife and kids lost a lot of access to me, despite the fact that I worked from home. It did NOT pay any bills...it just about covered costs. No, I was a consultant for a number of companies and worked hard for them, traveled a lot and used my...
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- Antony Williams
OT b/c it's blog not job related *but* I would cite this FF thread at some stage in this one. http://ff.im/YB4p from Feb '09.
- Graham Steel
Nils, thanks! Frank - that's a great idea. Can anyone put me in touch with someone at one of those agencies/companies? Björn - I see what you mean. Online rep doesn't translate offline automatically. Claudia - I've got a series of arguments, gleaned over the years from participation here and elsewhere. Can I send you an email? Antony - yes, I'm familiar with your work, and I have a...
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- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, one thing I've noticed in recent conversation with doctors (not academic MDs) is that most do not know much at all about OA, aren't sure what to make of a statistics-rich, data-driven science environment (or how to connect that data to actual human patients), and are leery about packages being hawked to them. Many are similar to me in age, meaning they didn't grow up in a...
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- Mickey Schafer
Well, I see myself being able to help in explaining these issues, but I don't think I'd get too far hawking products. I'm just not that kind of person.
- Mr. Gunn
Yeah, I just don't think I'm the salesman type. I think I'm more effective developing ideas than products.
- Mr. Gunn
You don't have to be a salesman to develop products. Product development requires a better understanding of customer needs than anything else out there. Being a product manager was one of the most satisfying jobs of my life
- Deepak Singh
from IM
Mr. Gunn -- I wasn't suggesting that you represent product -- actually, I was thinking more in terms of a "knowledge broker" -- the slow adoption of some technologies (whatever they may be) is often b/c the persons needing the tools don't know how to evaluate them -- sometimes, they may not know how to evaluate their own needs. Having an expert who can help someone understand the landscape, help them make choices based on needs (as opposed to sales pitches) is a very valuable resource. Just a thought!
- Mickey Schafer
Another area that is worth looking at, though probably represents a short term play, is that there are lots of people out there putting out calls for tenders to do small research projects in the Social Media/Publishing/Data/Science space. Again its patchy, and not regular but with some reliable money coming in from e.g. editing and writing this kind of work could do two things, firstly...
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- Cameron Neylon
MrG, did you get my email? I sent it to a gmail address that I have listed for you in my address book.
- Bill Hooker
Yes, I got the one you sent and I really appreciate it. I do plan to follow up when I get back into town.
- Mr. Gunn
Applying for a research grant entails an elaborate folie á deux between applicant and funding agency. The applicant describes in meticulous detail a programme of work, half of which has already been completed and the other half which probably never will be, at least not in the way that is proposed. The more original and important the research question, the more likely it is that this future half will never reach completion, because there is no road map into the unknown. There are of course exceptions, such as clinical trials, sequencing projects, epidemiological studies and genetic analyses, where it is reasonable to expect that what is proposed will be carried out. The current peer review process reinforces this approach to the funding of science. Referees and panel members are complicit with applicant and funder in judging the work of fiction that characterises many grant applications.
- Duncan Hull
Question and answer site that brings to it a ready-made community: the community around O'Reilly media. Looks a bit too broad to me, but it'll be interesting to watch develop.
- Michael Nielsen
"Domesticated turkeys cannot fly. Wild turkeys, however, can fly for short distances at speeds up to 55 miles per hour. They can also reach speeds of 25 miles per hour on the ground." http://www.infoplease.com/spot...
- Victor Ryden
Seems like a cruel joke to give a creature feathers and wings but not the ability to fly. Actually that sounds like a hazing, come to think of it.
- vicster
"However, data-driven science becomes more messy, methodologically and conceptually, when generation and testing of hypotheses are both based on the same, enormous data sets, and when the hypotheses to be tested are products of an automated search for patterns. Thousand-to-one odds in favor of a hypothesis (based on the usual kind of analysis) don’t mean much when a million hypotheses were screened to find it — but the evidence is the same, so what is the problem? In other words, What is so special about starting with a human-generated hypothesis? Bayesian methods suggest what I think is the right answer: To get from probabilistic evidence to the probability of something requires combining the evidence with a prior expectation, a “prior probability”, and human hypothesis generation enables this requirement to be ignored with considerable practical success."
- Michael Nielsen
from the comment section (by Drexler): "Human knowledge is a great web of densely connected parts, not a stack of blocks with a bottom that must rest on something else. It has central and peripheral regions, perhaps, but not a top or bottom." I like that conceptualization a lot. Many of the metaphors we use about knowledge relate to volume which implies a container which in turn implies...
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- Mickey Schafer
Love this: "This messy, difficult thing is called innovation, and while it can cause angst for those who prefer stable dysfunctionality,"
- Polly Potter
I am eagerly awaiting Stephen's reply. I love ping pong!
- mita
Is some clever person out there compiling a list of all the responses? 'Cause I was just thinking I should do that, but perhaps someone has already started.
- laura x