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My new Nature paper: A phylogeny-driven genomic encyclopaedia of Bacteria and Archaea (w/ CC license - yay) - http://www.nature.com/nature...

Wednesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Ruchira S. Datta, Christopher Fields, rowlikeagirl and 16 other people liked this

Kudos for getting the CC license! - Bill Hooker

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Absolutely =) - Graham Steel

I note that the data for the project, in addition to being in Genbank and at the JGI IMG sites, is now available in Biotorrents at http://www.biotorrents.net/details... - Jonathan Eisen

Jonathan - How did you get the CC license? - Michael Nielsen

I wrote briefly about the CC license thing on my blog a while ago here: http://phylogenomics.blogspot.com/2008... ... I think it is only done for papers reporting new genome sequence data. - Jonathan Eisen

Ah, very nice. It's useful to know about that policy from Nature. When I publish material related to open science I usually have a chat with my editor about licensing - this is the kind of thing that will be useful to bring up in future discussions. - Michael Nielsen

Nature announced a Creative Commons license for all genome papers in December 2007: http://dx.doi.org/10... - Martin Fenner

Worth noting that this was in response to strong community demands coming out of the controversy over the public and private genome projects as I understand it. Other communities take note (looking at you structural biology...) - Cameron Neylon

Two cancer genomes published in Nature last week also have Creative Commons license: http://dx.doi.org/10... and http://dx.doi.org/10... - Martin Fenner

Well, for many years (dating way back ...) Nature made genome papers available for free - and amazingly to me they have stuck to this. I do not think this was due to the public vs. private debates per se but I guess we could ask some of the old timers. Chris Gunter, who was an Nature back then and handled many of the genome papers, was involved in some way with this "openness" policy. The move to CC licenses in 2007 was a pleasant surprise too ... - Jonathan Eisen

Kudos also for getting the Nature paper. Merry Christmas. - Matthew Todd

I wrote a bit more about the paper and the story behind the story here: http://phylogenomics.blogspot.com/2009... - Jonathan Eisen

Thanks for the fascinating blog post. As one commenter said, longer than the Nature paper itself. I wish we had more blog posts like this where authors write about their just published papers. - Martin Fenner from iPhone

+1 Martin! Even better if authors were allowed to write to write their papers the way they want and wouldn't have to write blog posts - hint: paper: four pages, supplement: 10 pages. Supplements must be among the most absurd outgrowths of our decrepit publishing system... - Björn Brembs

Well, Bjorn and Martin, I agree and disagree. Certainly, forcing papers to be a certain length, to me, is silly, and is Yet Another Reason I like PLoS, since they have no specific restrictions on page lengths in most cases. And I completely agree that supplemental material is mostly inane. In fact, in my PLoS One, PLoS Bio and other PLoS papers I have tried to put as little as possible... more... - Jonathan Eisen

@Jonathan: I wrote the comment before I read the largely biographical blog post :-) Either way, being forced to be concise is indeed (often? sometimes?) a good thing, but can be done without the insane page limits of some journals. On the other hand, who but the author would have the right to force brevity? Put another way, shouldn't an author be allowed to completely spoil their work... more... - Björn Brembs

Unfortunately there is still a lot of work to be done before we can easily find all blog posts talking about a particular paper. Nature and other journals should follow the lead of PLoS with linking to blog posts directly from the paper webpage. And tools such as Researchblogging.org, Nature.com Blogs or Streamosphere should do a better job of aggregating all blog posts about a particular paper together. - Martin Fenner

Bjorn: 1) Author should indeed be in charge of length in my opinion as well as form in many other ways 2) Does not hurt to have editors who suggest things that might make a paper better. 3) As for understandability, I think part of the review of a paper, including in journals like PLoS One, should be whether or not what is written correctly explains what was done and correctly explains... more... - Jonathan Eisen

Baard @ Pixum

Frohe Weihnachten - God jul - Merry Christmas - Feliz Navidad - Joyeux Noel

Thursday from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton, aden, Eivind and 2 other people liked this

God jul! - Eivind

God jul, Eivind :) - Baard @ Pixum

NatureNews

Stem cell therapy restores vision - http://blogs.nature.com/news...

Wednesday from The Great Beyond - Blog Posts - Comment - Like - Share

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Alexander Kruel

Chuck Norris: Mary Might Have Aborted Jesus Christ Under ObamaCare/'Herodcare' http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009... (via http://friendfeed.com/aasfshn...)

Chuck Norris: Mary Might Have Aborted Jesus Christ Under ObamaCare/'Herodcare' http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/chuck-norris-mary-might-have-aborted-jesus-christ-under-obamacareherodcare.php?ref=fpb (via http://ff.im/dfN4W)

Wednesday - Comment - Like - Share

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Eivind

The argument that different races have genetically determined differences in intelligence : Greg Laden's Blog - http://scienceblogs.com/greglad...

Tuesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Almir Misimovic and Nils Reinton liked this

"The presumption being examined here is that humans are divisible into different groups (races would be one term for those groups) that are genetically distinct from one another in a way that causes those groups to have group level differences in average intelligence, as measured by IQ. More exactly, this post is about the sequence of arguments that are usually made when people try to make this assertion." - Eivind from Bookmarklet

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"Heritability of IQ measures is then proffered, often in reference to the famous "twin studies" which show a high heritability for IQ. Heritability is a measure derived from covariance between relatedness and some phenotype. Heritability is not genetic inheritance. It is scientifically incorrect and probably academically dishonest to assume or insist that a high heritability value means... more... - Eivind

"There may be a small component of intelligence that is inherited, but it seems to be swamped by other factors. The insistence that genes determine intelligence and that these genes are divided up in our species by groups that are often defined racially is usually misguided, and seems scientifically wrong. The supra-ultimate argument, after the final argument, brought up in this sort of... more... - Eivind

Just to add some balance to this political correctness - from one of the comments: "More later, but you cannot win an argument by throwing out peer reviewed data by claiming editors are suspect, or racist. At least to do that, you'd need stronger evidence than "I disagree with the data". - Nils Reinton

From what I've read in this blog before I don't think he's got any real problems with the data, it's the conclusions drawn from those data he disputes. There's a big difference between those two. - Eivind

Greg Laden says that the brain size data is "made up or cooked", and that the twins-separated-at birth studies are flawed because "Usually, the twins knew each other as they grew up". He does not present evidence to support his views, which makes this post just another one of those political-correct mean-nothing posts. I feel the need to emphasize that I am not a big supporter of the... more... - Nils Reinton

It's not actually a blog post, but an extended comment to another blog post. The discussion there with Bryan Pesta is not in the official scientific paper format, but more an exchange of views. I see this post as a summary of the usual flaws (or at least speculative conclusions) in many meta-analysis based on these same data sets (IQ vs. wealth, IQ vs. geographical location, IQ vs. color etc.) and I take it as such. - Eivind

Fair enough. I just wish Greg Laden would stop putting his politically correct "racist"-label on everyone who does not agree with him in the race/ethnicity genotype vs. phenotype debate. - Nils Reinton

+1 Nils - Paulo Nuin

I bet Greg would wish people would stop putting the "politically correct" label on him ;) - Eivind

I agree with you that Greg should be a bit more careful before calling someone a racist, though. - Eivind

Christopher Harris

having to resist writing a blog post about free will, how ironic

December 6 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Jeunelle Foster, Cliff Gerrish, Amira and 22 other people liked this

As you said the other day, it's not science. Or do you have a philosophy blog? - Alexander Kruel

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My blog is a little bit of everything but nevermind, the point is that free will IS entering the scientific language. It's not the free will we're used to (it's not necessarily conscious, it's fully brain based etc) but it's certainly getting in: on the brain science podcast just the other day they embraced it, and a paper I read this weekend is full of intentional concepts despite... more... - Christopher Harris

Yeah, it IS entering the scientific language. But wait, it's not what you think it is. It's really banana juice. Sorry people for the deception. Well, I'm not going to read it. Up next: the reintroduction of evil into the legal system. Again, not what you think, it's just free people doing bad things. Phew... - Alexander Kruel

I think I know why you're so adamant about this. I was raised Christian too and the stress of spending many young years realizing how much of what I'd been told was false and irrational still to this day predisposes me to attack anything that smells like scientifically naive, wishful thinking. Free will used to be a prime target of this anger and frustration as late as a few years ago.... more... - Christopher Harris

Seriously, scientists are also just humans. I've been amazed lately of how dumb educated people can be. Ever heard of Nassim Taleb? What a crank. Anyway, it's really sad to hear this. Free will is the creationism of neuroscience. And if it's true what you're saying, then woo is winning in that field. It's also not ignorance not to read some mathematical musings you may provide underpinning your notion of free will. I don't do it for the same reasons that I don't read papers by Jehovah's Witnesses. - Alexander Kruel

It's not just religious opposition. I'm saying the same when it comes to all the bullshit about consciousness. Or take Roger Penrose, I'd tell him he's making up bs there any time. It's dancing around rainbows end. You don't need expertise for this stuff. It's just flawed reasoning. An oxymoron. Of course, that there is something rather than nothing is a problem that also conflicts with... more... - Alexander Kruel

Well, sometimes there ARE reasons to assume things. For instance we don't know that other people are conscious but the way they talk and act make us assume they are. With recent advances in brain imaging we're starting to be able to distinguish conscious from unconscious brain states which gives us more reason to assume other people are conscious, even though the evidence is not... more... - Christopher Harris

What I meant about bs regarding consciousness is the opinion of some that we cannot tackle this concept with science. The sacrosanct of subjectivity and the first-person perspective. I've written something on topic here: http://friendfeed.com/minds... - Alexander Kruel

"If I cut my throat I may disover that I was dreaming or that I have been playing some advanced virtual reality game all along. Everything is possible. But right now there are safer and more promising options of gaining knowledge. How can I be sure? I can't, but there is evidence which proved to be reliable so far. I have to suspect that it will continue to be reliable based on... more... - Alexander Kruel

Assume free will? No reason. It's a concept that should at best be examined by psychology or the social sciences. It's a cultural idea. - Alexander Kruel

Hey don't despair about free will being studied by scientists, consider this: Even if science truly incorporates free will, such that there are centers for The Neuroscientific Study of Free Will popping up everywhere the way they do around consciousness studies at the moment, then we may still get to a point were we understand the operation of free will in human brains so thoroughly as to be able to predict free decisions. At that point science will truly have killed any traditional notions of free will. - Christopher Harris

I don't despair. I'm just worried about the underlying reasons people have to introduce it in the first place. Suspicious. And it may slow down discovery. It highlights a fundamental error in reasoning in that field. That is bad. At the very least, it will always act as a semantic obfuscation for calling randomness, unpredictability and spontaneous behaviour 'free will' when there obviously exist other, more descriptive terms. - Alexander Kruel

blah..."for calling" not not ;-) - Alexander Kruel

We can't know whether there "obviously exist other, more descriptive terms" until we know more about the phenomenon we're naming. 'Random' doesn't cut it, that was the point of Brembs' 2008 paper. 'Spontaneous' doesn't cut it because behaviour is spontaneous even in disease states where autonomous agency is impaired. This is why I want to write a blog post, to list the similarities and... more... - Christopher Harris

Well, nobody can stake a claim to natural language. If you actually want to create your own definition of 'free will', I'll refer to "'free will' as defined by Harris" (or "Free Harris") thenceforward. But what do you say isn't 'cutting it'? What phenomenon? I know that randomness is poriferous. Spontaneous is fatuitous. I commited the mistake to name those terms for the ease of not... more... - Alexander Kruel

Oh no no, I've gone along with trying to articulate and defend the new free will here but I haven't yet decided what I really think about it and it's certainly not my idea. - Christopher Harris

The phenomenon is the generation of will and behaviour by nervous systems - Christopher Harris

I think you're confusing a naive mind over matter attitude with a dynamical systems attitude where emergent properties are important - Christopher Harris

Just forget what I said. Was maybe all bs. A blog post on emergent properties would be cool. Sorry. Thanks. - Alexander Kruel

I think you should write a blog post about free will after all. I'd like you to unravel the following points: 1. To what does the word 'free' in 'free will' apply? 2. What would be the difference between a being (i.e. fruit fly) which posses free will and one that doesn't? 3. Does free will apply to a certain entity or behavior? 4. Is there a borderline between free and not free? 5. How... more... - Alexander Kruel

well I'll have to so something, just got this comment on my 'What is dopamine?' video: "i love this video. i too think that we're just one big chemical machine with no free will. just the playing out of molecules in a bigger scale." - Christopher Harris

those are good questions though, hope I can address some of them when i'm done reading (still going through the papers Bjorn Brems recommended.. this Vladimir Brezina guy is vicious on the maths, hard to keep up) - Christopher Harris

Well, that's completely obvious to me since I first thought about it when being much younger. That's why I'm commenting here and elsewhere. Out of sheer incredulity that anybody in his right mind could contemplate about free will for long. I don't want to be derogatory here. I could be wrong, I could suffer some neurological deficit. As I said above, I can't wrap my mind around the... more... - Alexander Kruel

And about math, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

You can show all kind of stuff with math. Just take string theory. If you want to prove 'free will' with math, simple answer: 'Not even wrong' - Alexander Kruel

On the other hand: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/margina... - That would rock, I'd love that to be the case. - Alexander Kruel

I don't actually care about the philosophical/semantic arguments around free will all that much. what matters to me are the cases where free will most obviously breaks down. how can we learn to control ourselves better? that's my real concern. - Christopher Harris

Where 'free will' breaks down is really when volition breaks down. Anyway, self-control is the enemy of diversity. I'm here, doing this for a lack of control. If I had enough control I'd still be religious today, ignoring everything that might shatter my desire to believe. -- Always reminds of this quote: “If we could deliberately seize control of our pleasure systems, we could... more... - Alexander Kruel

This is just in: When Situations Not Personality Dictate Our Behaviour - http://www.spring.org.uk/2009... "Contrary to our instincts, however, studies such as this one demonstrate that it is frequently the situation that controls our actions more strongly than personality." - Alexander Kruel

Full list of publications by Vladimir Brezina http://146.203.52.26/Neurosc... - Alexander Kruel

That's something for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

Just Exactly What Is Determinism? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Forget free will and get on with empirical psychology. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Free will is not a question for science. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... - Alexander Kruel

Good question: "The will is thought to be free if a person manages to overcome a short-term temptation for the sake of a greater, but later, value. Self-regulation raises a final asymmetry. Suppose you have a choice between slapping a misbehaving child and patiently discussing her behavior. Will you get free-will credit only for patient self-regulation?" - Alexander Kruel

How would one differentiate between a system with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher: What's 'genuine' free will? The last serious thinkers to take dualism seriously probably were Popper and Eccles in the 1970s. Since then, dualism has been dead. I don't see any professional neuroscientist claiming that anything other than the brain is everything we are, as people, identities, self. So apart from a ghost in our heads, what's 'genuine' free will? - Björn Brembs

@Christopher You'd better ask him if a fruit fly without spontaneous variations in its behavior would be in any meaningful way different, from one which possess a spontaneous variation generator, regarding the notion of free will. To me it is a laughable resurrection of a obsolete concept by twisting its meaning beyond recognition. In other words, a "free will of the gaps" approach.... more... - Alexander Kruel

By the way, Brembs' paper is very good and important work. Something I admire. I'm just calling bullshit on its interpretation. Just so that is clear, some people are easily upset :-) - Alexander Kruel

The brain as system that 'transforms sensory input into motor output' is a working defintion but has nothing to do with the reality of physical interactions. It cannot be used to call willful action free contrary to deliberate acts that are purely deterministic. In no meaningful way, regarding the concept of free will, are internal interactions within a brain different from interactions... more... - Alexander Kruel

Possibility and Could-ness http://lesswrong.com/lw... - "The statement, "I could jump off the cliff, if I chose to" is entirely compatible with "It is physically impossible that I will jump off that cliff". It need only be physically impossible for you to choose to jump off a cliff - not physically impossible for any simple reason, perhaps, just a complex fact about what your brain will and will not choose." - Alexander Kruel

Didn't know about this: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

One of the easiest hard questions, as millennia-old philosophical dilemmas go. Though this impossible question is fully and completely dissolved on Less Wrong... http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@Christopher many chaotic systems in nature (e.g. the weather) are deterministic systems whose future states cannot (as far as we know) be predicted/calculated short of running the system, but we don't think of them as having will; we don't think of them as agents. even a willful agent might not be considered capable of free will however if his/her/its will expresses itself merely as... more... - Christopher Harris

@Alex "The notion of free will has a lot to do with choice and control, neither of which can be used to describe how your brain processes its decisions." This is simply incorrect: choice and control are the subjects of countless rigorous investigations, the terms are used in the neuroscientific litterature every day. Stop saying these things cannot be studied scientifically, they can,... more... - Christopher Harris

OK, Christopher, let me rephrase that: How would one differentiate between a brain with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic brain whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

Björn: Indeed. So why is the term "free-will" used? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher (awesome name by the way) I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", people have always struggled with the definiotion of free will, from Hume's compatibilism to Kant's transcendental freedom. I'm interested in this new intepretation of free will because it may finally give us something more solid to work with, something I can study in the lab and do statistics on. I think... more... - Christopher Harris

I only use the term "genuine" (and in quotes) to note that one can't tell the difference between the two cases I offered, at least as I understand the meaning of "free-will." I guess I'm with Alex in not comprehending why you bother with the term at all. - Christopher A Carr

What is your definition of Free Will, Christopher A. Carr? Apart from any philosopher's interpretation, what do you say it is or rather, what would you like it to be? - Melanie Reed

Melanie: You would be the only one in the thread now to define it as that thing which is beamed into heads by Yahweh, the Semitic mountain deity. Your inclusion in the discussion can only effect a hijacking of the thread. - Christopher A Carr

That is not for you to judge. I asked a question. It is pertinent to the subject matter. It is your choice (free will) to answer it. - Melanie Reed

Christopher, my reason for considering using that term is that most people have an experience of free will, and it may be that the process underlying that experience is very interesting and important. I'd like to understand the workings of that process in a small neural network and maybe one day reproduce it computationally. Also, people stress about free will with regards to the iPlant and dopamine in general, so this re-intepretation may be fruitful to that side of what I do too. - Christopher Harris

Melanie: Actually, I think it would have to be accounted for by some metaphysical woo-woo along those lines, which is why I think it's nonsense. Were we to talk about the subject, it would devolve into the omniscient creator, pre-determination/self-determination paradox, which is not the subject of this thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: How would the subjective experience differ between those two options I offered? - Christopher A Carr

Thou mayest, Christopher. Not a microbe. Not quark. Thou. - Melanie Reed

Christopher Carr: I think you're right, you can't really tell if we actually have free will, or if it's just an illusion due to the underlying mechanisms of consciousness. But, the sensation of free-will--the feeling that we have to make choices--is surely something we've all experienced, and if it's something we experience, then the underlying mechanisms can be elucidated. - Victor Ganata

Victor: I agree. I'm all for the study of neural correlates of the sensation of free-will, or however you might want to phrase that... - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: "Thou" is a second person singular pronoun. So? Appealing to those texts you worship cuts no ice with me. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: It comes from a very famous quote out of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden. The main character of the Chinese Housekeeper, Lee, who despite his position is a meticulous researcher of language. He explains to Cal at the end the fruit of his lifetime research which covers the main theme of Steinbeck's novel: Choice: “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Is any of that supposed to constitute evidence of anything? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Prove to me that you love someone. Show me some evidence. - Melanie Reed

Yeah, I saw _Contact_ too. - Eph Zero

Melanie: In fact -- and Christopher H could speak to this -- I bet it's possible to recognize romantic love in patterns of activity shown via fMRI. - Christopher A Carr

Ah, I get it now. The discussion regarding the existence of free will is just another insult to you, Melanie. It took me a few minutes to understand your presence in this thread. - Eivind

Christopher: How then did people recognize love before there was MRI? How could they be sure? There was no evidence, if evidence is only obtained from technology. Can you name anything that is self-evident? - Melanie Reed

Not at all, Elvind. I just want to make sure you have been given the opportunity to consider all the evidence. We can become "prisoners of one idea." The concept of Free Will was not originated from the scientific field. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Having a sense of self doesn't mean that the brain is not a deterministic system. ...as to your reply to Eivind, since when are you concerned with "evidence?" - Christopher A Carr

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." - Melanie Reed

Melanie: I suggest that if you would like to contribute to this thread, go back through and read it all in order to understand what it is that's being discussed. If you would like to talk about something else, feel free to start your own thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, If you want to study something that did not come from your field, I agree with the originator of this thread that it is helpful to listen to those who espouse what you are trying to gain knowledge about. There is a connective tissue, indeed, a fabric that is essential to your pursuit. - Melanie Reed

If someone said they loved me but didn't show me "evidence" of such (e.g., treating me well, showing affection, etc.), the word itself would be meaningless. In fact, it's a very vague term to begin with. What exactly do you mean by it, anyway? - Eph Zero

Wait, no need to answer that and go further off-topic. - Eph Zero

Determinism in the fundamental sense has ceased to be a viable concept with the discovery of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Determinism in the sense of predictability has ceased to be a viable concept since our understanding of deterministic chaos started happening. Dualism (aka 'genuine' free will, magic-man-done-it, or ghost in my head) has ceased to be a viable concept since... more... - Björn Brembs

Our sense of free will, the personal experience of it - much of this is usually referred to as agency - is an entirely different matter, although there is some tentative evidence that the brain functions subserving both may overlap. - Björn Brembs

@Christopher Harris You are incorrect. You don't control how you think or when you are thinking. I don't know how you understood what I said, but it's a simple fact backed by such rigorous proves as Gödel's incompleteness theorems. - Alexander Kruel

Brembs doesn't get that just by adding complexity and uncertainty you do not verify freedom :-( - Alexander Kruel

As I said above (nobody replied), endogenous processes generating behavioral variability and thus non-linearity are working-definitions. This has nothing to do with the overall physical reality of causal chains. At no point the freedom of a system, in itself or from the environment in which it is embedded, can be derived from any conclusion that was attained in reference to that... more... - Alexander Kruel

I might have to clarify what exactly I mean by 'working definitions'. Every system and its boundaries are arbitrary or biased definitions. You can extent the variables of any open system beyond its defined boundaries. Thus it is just unreasonable to talk about freedom in open systems. Endogenous actions are ultimately depend on outside factors. And talking about the freedom of a closed... more... - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: I don't know how to discuss that difference if by "genuine" free will you mean a dualistic, magical power endowed to the souls of men by God Almighty. Like Bjorn said, no scientist would argue for the kind of dualistic, supracausal free will you and Alex seem to be refering to. If however you're asking about the subjective difference between a person with free will and a... more... - Christopher Harris

As regards abulia, free-will is merely the ability to initiate a behavior? Free-will is that which exist in agents who aren't suffering from particular sorts of DDM? - Christopher A Carr

Aboulia is characterized by a lack of will, not a lack of free will. And it is not an ability to 'initiate' action. This would imply that you perceive your ability to 'initiate' action but not the initiative itself, which would mean that your thoughts are perceived as non-actions. That's where the free in free will collides with reality. We do not perceive freedom of choice, we think about options on an intellectual level and confuse ability with possiblity. - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: Something like that. Patrick Haggardd writes an excellent review of the distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... and then there's the controlled variability, the adaptivity, the intentionality and the relative independence from environmental stimuli. - Christopher Harris

What is it that does possess free will then, the entity or the 'distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour'? That's exactly the point, relative independence from the environment is as good as no independence when it comes to freedom. It ignores the fact that we are part of the environment, an environment that includes other supposedly free agents that are... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alex: no one here argues for a free will that implies that things 'could have been otherwise' or that the causal chain stretching back to the Big Bang can be subverted. the claim here is simply that the processes by which the brain makes different decisions in the same situation can be thought of as free will. - Christopher Harris

Making different decisions in similar situations is the difference between 'mechanical' and intelligent systems. It is the difference between static systems and the flexibility of adaptive systems due to feedback and learning that allows for situational variability. I argue that it is not reasonable to use free will to describe anything physical as long as you are not willing to... more... - Alexander Kruel

Given that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is a valid interpretation of reality, I don't think the idea of choice has been completely ruled out. The equations really do allow other events than what have already occurred. But I also realize this doesn't necessarily require free-will either. - Victor Ganata

"This universe is constantly splitting into a stupendous number of branches, all resulting from the measurementlike interactions between its myriads of components. Moreover, every quantum transition taking place on every star, in every galaxy, in every corner of the universe is splitting our local world into myriads of copies of itself." (Bryce De Witt, 1970) - Alexander Kruel

Even if that was the case. "Doing everything", or a Permutation City approach, does not account for free will. Although I guess we'll be a bit closer to something you could call freedom... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@cristophder carr; if we grant for a moment that it is not possible to distinguish between a system with 'genuine' free will and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system, why is making the difference important? If suppose that subjectively we cannot conclude either way, that is no proof in support of wither way too. So that... more... - Sandeep Gautam

@Alexender human or animal agents that are believed to have free will are not closed systems. all living beings are open systems and thus by your own admission can be free and have free will. Free will is important when thinking about agents and living things and a whole theory of mind or folk psychology module that is different from mechansistic or folk physics module has evolved in... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all; but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will, moreover will that is not tightly constrained, but relatively free and endowing with choice and control." +++ Sandeep Gautam This is a closer explication of what can be stated from other disciplines, if you will, couched in terms other than scientific ones, yet saying the same thing. In these areas it takes cross-discipline understanding, - Melanie Reed

For example take Sandeep's first posit: "Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all;" keeping in mind the following statement allows for the exception to it "..but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will,.." This is exactly what this statement is referring to: "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose [will] that prevails." Proverbs 19:21 It allows for what Sandeep's possiblity has hit upon: a lesser will within a larger context. - Melanie Reed

@Sandeep Gautam: Huh? When have I said that? I said it doesn't matter, either way there is no free will. - Alexander Kruel

Is there no concept that a greater will can set up deterministic systems (for safety purposes) that allow for the fluidity of lesser free wills in which to act? - Melanie Reed

You're not going to get a hearing here for your "Yahweh did it" hypothesis, Melanie. - Christopher A Carr

Then with all due respect to you Christopher, you're not being very scientific. You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it. There is a danger in not allowing for thinking and possibilities that are beyond our measure of intelligence. We will go round in circles or continue to arrive at imperfect destinations. A good scientist listens and is open to possibilities. - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Sandeep Gautam already made that point, sadly it's false. Read up on falsifiability and Occam's razor. Maybe some Wittgenstein would be good too. - Alexander Kruel

To take the analogy with open systems further, everyone knows the second law of thermodynamics that the entropy increases as time flies theorem; but that is applicable to closed systems. One cannot argue that open systems like living beings would not exist that sort of defy the entropy principle (move towards more organization) as long as they live. Living beings , that are open... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it." That is not at all correct. I can't disprove that free-will derives from an invisible pixie dust-farting homunculus in my head. Supernatural explanations are methodologically excluded... - Christopher A Carr

Alex: In Melanie's case, entertaining contrary beliefs is a slippery slope to a firey pit. ...it's the genius of the memeplex. - Christopher A Carr

@xixidiu @cristopher that is what Melaine is saying that if you cannot prove it , allow it; that is not my position. My position is that given two non-falsifiable/non-provable alternatives, believe in one that is good for everyone. - Sandeep Gautam

One can't (at least I can't) simply choose to believe the more implausible of two explanations. - Christopher A Carr

@crsitopher you are on slippery grounds here...to most of people free will is intuitive and not implausible...of course intuitiveness and folk concepts doesn't count as scientific proof,; but it is pertinent to what is plausible to believe and what is not. - Sandeep Gautam

At any rate, Christopher H's definition of free-will just sounds like "intelligence" to me. I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage. @Sandeep From whence derives this "freedom?" I can't figure that out, hence it seems implausible. - Christopher A Carr

No Christopher. I started not believing. I simply arrived (and I did not get there by one dull and morbid route) at the discovery that there was no other alternative. "I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage", Because Christopher, you are more than what you think you are. Connect the dots. They are there. - Melanie Reed

well freedom from immediate environmental influences or past learning history. room for behavior variability (bot operant behavior and conditioned behavior) - Sandeep Gautam

All interpretations of quantum mechanics describe an indeterministic universe, though. Again, this doesn't prove free-will, but arguing for a deterministic universe defies our current understanding of reality. - Victor Ganata

Victor: You aren't suggesting that the brain taps into that foundational indeterminacy via quantum computing in the microtubules? :-) - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: You're the only one here who is trying to talk about Jesus. And just making vague assertions ("you are more than what you think you are"..."connect the dots...they are there") is not even remotely persuasive. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: heh, I'll leave that to a certain renowned physicist to argue. But once you remove determinism from the discussion, I think it does become useful to examine the phenomenon of free-will. Sure, it's not the same thing as what we intuit free-will to be, and it doesn't meet the classical philosophical definitions, but there's still something there to study. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, I wasn't hoping that you would make the connection today. ;) First, the anger must go. But I think one day you will. And on that day, the click of machinery will be one of relief. - Melanie Reed

Victor: I can think of one renowned physicist/cosmologist who argues persuasively against the possibility, or perhaps that's what you meant. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: People with agendas as constant as yours are not pleasant people to interact with, particularly when the agenda is to infect others with a memeplex as nasty as Christianity. You might as well be chasing me around with a syringe full of smallpox. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: What do you think I'm angry at? - Christopher A Carr

I think the term "free-will" is nothing more than short-hand for an ill-defined phenomenon that we all have some vague intuition about, but which appears distinct from sentience, and perhaps even from consciousness. I think it's unnecessarily confusing to just fold it into other neurological phenomenon. As Christopher H points out, the phenomenon of volition is something that has... more... - Victor Ganata

And what of the evidence for the preparation of decisions prior to one becoming conscious of the decision? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher yea this new free will isn't necessarily conscious, big change from the traditional version - Christopher Harris

@cristopher I concur, the new free will need not be conscious; it can , and most probably is to a large extent unconscious. - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher, I have no agenda where you (or anyone else) are/is concerned that is in the least bit as violent as your metaphor proposes. :) Quite the opposite. It is and will always be your choice to act upon it or not. I am not a virus nor is what I am telling you a virus or memplex. Indeed, if you want to pursue that thinking, you might as well turn it around and ask yourself if... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Pascal's wager is bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

Consciousness seems to me a necessary condition. Without it, what does the "free" mean in "free-will?" - Christopher A Carr

I don't think the evidence that some decisions are made before your consciousness perceives them necessarily precludes free-will, though. I'd like to see them test other scenarios other than just giving a volunteer an instruction, and watching how the brain processes that instruction. - Victor Ganata

If we're thinking of the same study, it just shows that there's a lot of unconscious activity when an instruction from another person gets processed by your brain. There's no indication that the consciousness can or can't override the unconscious activity. That leaves room for another experiment. - Victor Ganata

@christopher I have already answered that. freedom from immediacy. freedom from histrory - Sandeep Gautam

After all, it at least appears we can temporarily override certain otherwise involuntary functions of the body. - Victor Ganata

Would a p-zombie have free will? - Christopher A Carr

yes, if it (p-zombie) was acting as an agent showing behavioral flexibility and variability, our minds would model it as an agent and grant it free will . It might not be conscious but is both willful and without being sentient free in the sense that its unconscious could still have chosen otherwise - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Wait, one's theory of mind bequeaths to other ostensible agents free-will? - Christopher A Carr

to elaborate on p-zombie, supposing that intoxication (inhaling alcohol) makes you a p-zombie momentarily, you would still be held accountable in thtis real world as the prior decision to take alcohol was perhaps mistaken and lead to the outcome. To use analogy of Jon Haidt, if you train your unconscious (elephant) incorrectly your conscious (the rider/trainer / mahout) is also equally... more... - Sandeep Gautam

People on a black-out drunk have free-will? - Christopher A Carr

not on a black out, but supposing that their conscious is overtaken by unconscious and they cannot remember what they are doing, law and I would still hold them accountable and having free will (as they had freely decided to enter into that state) - Sandeep Gautam

Legality is a separate issue. - Christopher A Carr

to take further the case of drunkenness, a drunken person does not just react, he/.she acts by loosening of inhibitions, free rein of impulses ..and acts freely - Sandeep Gautam

Impulsivity is an increase in free-will? - Christopher A Carr

I guess free will has two parts...impulsivity contributes to freeness...freedom from history or immediacy...wilfulnness comes from ability to keep impulsivity in check. - Sandeep Gautam

ok to better rephrase it ...impulsivity - freedom from immediacy....impluses not driven by stimulus necessarily; willfulness - freedom from history- actions not governed by past operant rewards necessarily. - Sandeep Gautam

Regarding "could have," does Google Voice's speech-to-text algorithm have free-will? ...well, I guess Google Voice uses lots of statistical analysis. Suppose you have a speech-to-text algorithm that attempts to assign phonemes to acoustic data segments. If a section is ambiguous between a /p/ and a /b/, and the algorithm assigns /b/, do we say it "could have" assigned /p/? - Christopher A Carr

"could have" is not my position. counterfactuls do not prove the point of free will in my opinion. I think more of given the same conditions different responses at different times that are goal-directed, spontaneous, exhibit choice of form and timing and procedure; google algo doesn't choose when to substitute /ba/ as /pa/; whether to substitue or not and if so when to substitute and why? It doesn't pass the volition test - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: Your last emphatic vulgarism answered your own question about anger. I may persuade with my arguments. I may plead with my heart. But getting angry undermines your stand. What is left is that marvel for something that to many appears a standard of intelligence and perception to which they must attain. You want the answer couched only in the terms which you have defined. Your stance would lock out the very thing you claim to pursue. Even Richard Feynman didn't do that. - Melanie Reed

Sandeep: I'm hearing something like Ben Goertzel's definition of intelligence. Is free-will necessary to effect "..the ability to achieve complex goals in complex environments?" - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: Feynman also thought that Pascal's Wager was bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

to take the google voice algo example further, if the algo had hidden urges that would spontaneously and in unambiguous situations too, tweak the translation so as to favor /ba/ over /da/ sometimes and /da/ over /ba/ other times, then I would grant it willfulness or some freedom (it is not constrained by the text, but can decide on its own to translate a given text to sound; if it... more... - Sandeep Gautam

We're talking sound-to-text here. Text-to-speech is becoming trivial, except for things like prosody. - Christopher A Carr

ok whatever, you get the idea... - Sandeep Gautam

basically if after hearing ba correctly, if google algo still mischeveiously decidedtro code it as p or d, I owuld grant it some freedom. - Sandeep Gautam

Melanie: "I may plead with my heart." You would be better off pleading with your information processing organ. - Christopher A Carr

actually our folk notions may be appropriate here...we do attribute intentionality to products like google voice when they consistently f**k up in a particular way...we say what an idiot that application is and grant it sort of agency and purpose. - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Indeed. Humans suffer from hyperactive agency detection, Melanie being a case in point. :-) - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You're right. I am a very poor example of a robot. I am to the depth, to the last, human. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: High levels of rationality do not make one a "robot," in the sense of the word you're using. - Christopher A Carr

Ben's definition of intelligence (on a cursory read) to me seems wide ranging ...his 'task independent pragmatic understanding of itself and the world' borders on sentience, so not surprised if he takes volition also in its stride. BTW, its 3 am in morning india, time to signoff. will continue discussion tomorrow:-) - Sandeep Gautam

Been lovely conversing with you Sandeep. Good evening. - Christopher A Carr

my pleasure too! - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: No, they make one increasingly intolerant of the sum of what you are. You are dissatisfied. Your path to satisfaction has one route and it is always to run round in that circle. But do you plan to arrive anywhere? Or is it to find pleasure in the game of the circular? If so, I can understand that. But it still doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction. It is just a higher level of pleasurable distraction. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: With what do you suppose I'm dissatisfied? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You want to know rather just believe.If you are presented with a situation requiring belief in the gap where knowledge leaves off, that makes you dissatisfied. I can understand that. We all have that. It's what we do with that space that makes all the difference in the world - Melanie Reed

"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." <--- Why do you not believe that? - Christopher A Carr

With respect, Mohammed did not come to come to make dead people live. He did not come to die for their sins and make a way out for them so that their relationship with God could be restored to what it was. Only Jesus did this. And I am grateful for what He did. - Melanie Reed

"Only Jesus did this." No he didn't. - Christopher A Carr

Tell me, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, to what religion do you suppose you would adhere? That you are a Christian is an arbitrary matter of having been born in a predominately Christian part of the world. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Again, with respect, it is not arbitrary. I have brothers and sisters ( in Christ) who are in Saudi Arabia, indeed, in every part of the world. I have brothers (in Christ) who grew up in SA and later through a chain of events moved elsewhere and then became Christians. - Melanie Reed

Suppose you were born in a small tribe in the Amazon basin which has yet to interact with missionaries. You think you would be Christian? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Christ is there, too. Though some of our brothers have given their lives in that mission. Of recent note (in this century) with the Waodani tribe.One tribe member in particular killed 4 missionaries, but later became our brother. - Melanie Reed

You've no ethical qualms with destroying these cultures? None at all? - Christopher A Carr

Of course you avoided the question. - Christopher A Carr

That culture still exists, Christopher. They only difference is that they exist knowing the promise of Christ. - Melanie Reed

These cultures are surely doomed anyway, but it strikes me as a despicable that you're so happy to be the executioner. - Christopher A Carr

I agree with you that as globalization progress (through technology and big business) many cultures and lives will be uprooted. But it is not Christ who is destroying people. It is people and their greed who are doing these things to each other. - Melanie Reed

I also wanted to make clear in case there was confusion: the missionaries were attacked by the tribe and 4 were killed. The missionaries did not fight back. They allowed themselves to be killed. It was this that made an impression on the tribe member and he later became a Christian - Melanie Reed

We should move it over here so Christopher can clean up this thread: http://friendfeed.com/cacarr... - Christopher A Carr

I'd be interested to know how you would describe the reason for your participation in this discussion: 1. "I came across this debate and felt compelled to respond..." 2. "Of several competing actions/options I have deliberately chosen to respond to this thread..." 3. "I never consciously decided to take part in this debate for a special reason, it just happened / I just did..." 4. "Because of / God / made me do it..." - Alexander Kruel

@Sandeep Gautam: If you define free will as freedom from immediacy, how does one achieve this? Every stimulus must be processed immediately. You don't have the option to ignore it. To restrain an urge is as much a response to stimulus as motor output. Influence is always reciprocal. Non-actions do not exist. Besides, how many people would be happy to define free will as the unconscious... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander, I made an assumption that you might be addressing me since you invoked God in your question. This thread is in a "public" room. It infers general participation by that alone. The concept of Free Will, regardless of what it has come to mean or might come to mean, within the scientific discipline originated as concept with God and therefore has been the immediate concern of... more... - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Seen me arguing against your participation in this discussion? I actually agree with you in one point. It's a theological concept. Sadly some people don't get it, or try to sneak it into neuroscience. - Alexander Kruel

@Alexander Kruel My apologies for misunderstanding who your comment was aimed at. I do understand the desire to pursue the concept from the scientific discipline. Strangely, (as it might seem to some of the participants on this thread) others have wanted to look through this lens but from a different direction: this is what we know. Now how does it work from here. Curiosity is only... more... - Melanie Reed

Do you think your god possess free will given its omniscience and thus prior knowledge of its own actions? Just curious :-) - Alexander Kruel

One seemingly innocuous passage declares that "His thinking is higher" meaning that He is not constrained by the same constraints that we experience within our lesser wills of choice. But here is the kicker: He chooses to work within the constraints He asks of us. In short: he "obeys" His own moral laws but allows for a stepping outside the natural (what we perceive as scientific) law... more... - Melanie Reed

Seen that coming. You can't win a theological debate. Never mind, just trying to fathom if it is worth talking about this topic with you any further. I would, but I don't have the time. - Alexander Kruel

I wasn't debating. :) And I don't mind at all appearing foolish. I thank you for listening. - Melanie Reed

I don't mind appearing foolish either. Otherwise I wouldn't comment on such topics at all. But I have nothing to lose, contrary to some educated scientists that should know better. Anyway, if you haven't been debating, what then, preaching? I consider that as spam. - Alexander Kruel

I have told you the truth. Spam, when I began in technology, was defined as repeatedly sending the same email message to a recipients mailbox, flooding it so that nothing else could be sent out or received. Thus, it was incapacitating the recipient's ability to communicate. That hasn't happened here. That definition hasn't changed that I know of and I have been in the tech field for a... more... - Melanie Reed

It was an analogy. Unsolicited advertisement for something I'm not interested in. I wasn't writing a scientific paper and thought a lack of preciseness in my word choice would be permitted. Nevertheless, I grant you a points win on this one. P.S. I'm off for today... - Alexander Kruel

Just to clarify a few points in this meandering thread. Determinism, even macroscopically, is about as antiquated as that of what people in this thread call 'genuine' free will. Of course, anybody is entitled to their opinions, but of course anybody is free to ridicule flat-earthers, too. Free will is composed of two things. If we get too free (e.g. by drugs), we question the will. If... more... - Björn Brembs

I've had Tourette syndrome/impulse control disorder for many years during my childhood. I still suffer from other psychological disorders/problems, such as medical anxiety or having feelings/perceptions of things being venomed. I've never been able to focus myself on certain tasks. I also grew up in a very religious surrounding where people believe into libertarian free will. Thus I'm... more... - Alexander Kruel

@Xixidu not every stimulus is processed ; if that was the case we would get mad; be paralyzed analyzing the incoming stimulations. A lot of the stimulus is ignored and never reaches consciousness, so it is wrong to say every stimulus is attended to. Most are ignored and ignoring a stimulus need not be a conscious decisions; it can be an unconscious decisions. to say that ignoring a stimulus is also responding to it is clearly twisting definitions. . - Sandeep Gautam

A decision is a decision. No need to twist definitions here. If you come up with loaded and loose concepts such as free will, what do you expect? Your volition is the sum of all stimulus, internal and external, conscious and ignored. Where is the freedom? The word surely needs to have some meaning beyond the fuzziness of unpredictability? If not, why do you introduce it, what is its use in science? How does it enrich our comprehension of natural phenomena? - Alexander Kruel

why do you keep harping on unpredictability. Free will is not about unpredictability. Its not about randomness either. It si about freedom (from immediacy, from history). for eg, If I resolve not to reply to your posts in ana acrimonous manner , no matter how acrimonous you become, than though by stating it explicitly, I become highly predictable; I am still exercising my free will,... more... - Sandeep Gautam

Why are we attracted to Andromeda? Because every bit of matter attracts one another. The infinitesimals forces of nature exert their pull infinitely. I'm not arguing against libertarian free will here, although I know you believe into it. I'm arguing against the term in general. If you propose the existence of a will that is free, as implied by the combinatorial term free will, then what is the nature of will? Do people either act deliberately or genuine deliberate? Show me why you need to add free to will. - Alexander Kruel

+++ Sandeep Gautam - Melanie Reed

let me get this straight. you believe that 'will' exists but is not 'free' and we create an oxymoron by adding free; can you define what your 'will' is? - Sandeep Gautam

Because the gravity between people and the gravity between celestial bodies are not the same thing. It seems that there is a blurring between what you are saying (influenced by experience from your condition as a variable) and what Sandeep is saying. Needs sorting out - Melanie Reed

You can express gravity between people as that of emotional attraction or repulsion based on characteristics not the force between galaxies - Melanie Reed

Yes I can: My will is the unfolding of a highly complex process, a sub-system of the universe, as defined by this system itself, into actions perceived to be shaped by itself. I tried to define free will here: http://xixidu.tumblr.com/post... - Just remove free and you got my definition of 'volition'... - Alexander Kruel

ah, the western mind - Gregory Lent

Gregory, I never figured if you believe that something like free will exist or not? - Alexander Kruel

Oh no, Lent joins the thread, expect more spiritual woo woo ;) Alex, let's take a specific example. The feeding system of the snail Lymnaea contains 500 neurons in two connected ganglia, but nevertheless has rudimentary free will under this new definition. The neurons in the two ganglia generate a complicated pattern of thousands of sequential and parallel spikes, which, in the intact... more... - Christopher Harris

Let's just say I can accept free will to be defined as 'nonlinear, endogenous behavior', output over input. I now think it might be adequate after all. -- It's just really hard for me to perceive freedom 'from within'. Much of my perception is actually influenced from within, as for example that I perceive things to be dangerous for no apparent environmental cues. Or that I... more... - Alexander Kruel

no free will ... nice discussion above of what that statement could mean/imply/ ... biggest takeway from this thread is about the limits of english and its close cousin science in being able to get close to understanding subtleties of mind and consciousness. it is lacking so many necessary concepts. - Gregory Lent

Nevertheless, I think there is another problem. Although this problem matters when it comes to the new definition of free will and my definition of volition I held all along. So this is not just a critique of what you, Brembs or others propose but also of my own idea of will. Namely, of what importance is consciousness regarding volition? Can we really talk about deliberate actions without explicit awareness of what we want to do ahead of the action? - Alexander Kruel

Well, sure, even the inflexible behaviours of OCD or addiction emerge from inside the nervous system despite being in some sense un-free. The assumption there is that the normal mechanisms of will and variation have been corrupted, and this too has been studied in the molluscan feeding system http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... - Christopher Harris

Re consciousness: I think important decisions in the healthy human brain will typically be conscious, even if the mechanisms by which the contents and conclusions of consciousness are generated are only vaguely understood. This is important I think, to identify with your ENTIRE brain, not just those processes that are accessible to consciousness. People tend to get this wrong about... more... - Christopher Harris

Do people get it wrong or may they simply have a different idea of what free will is supposed to mean? Even if I agree to this new definition of free will now, being wrong before, I still doubt most people would accept that definition any time soon. - Alexander Kruel

I think people get it wrong in the same way people who reject brain-death as the proper way to determine when a person is dead are wrong. I think brain-based notions of identity will get increasingly prevalent and increasingly useful as we learn more about the brain. This will require however that there is loads of engaging, easy-to-understand-and-interact-with material available that deals with the findings of neuroscience, hence my youtube channel and website :) - Christopher Harris

If you could control your iPlant brain implant using a external computer, or use a time-based job scheduler on a external machine to execute some script, would it cease to be external and integrate with your free will/identity and thus become part of you? - Alexander Kruel

conditional rewarding brain stimulation (the main function iPlants would enable in humans) always requires an external computer to determine when a required task has been performed and deliver the rewarding electrical pulse. the question is who programs it. if the implant is used to reward behaviours that the user has chosen - behaviours he or she wants to be able to perform but which... more... - Christopher Harris

charcoal artists talking about how to draw rainbows :-) - Gregory Lent

Lent has found the way and the light, none of this search for logic and science, truth is found in the humble leaf, and in the morning wind. - Christopher Harris

ah, the qualitative makes an appearance in Mr. Harris words .. nice beginning - Gregory Lent

I try to mix the qualitative and the quantitative in my novel, check it out sometime http://www.iplant.eu/fiction... - Christopher Harris

I'm glad you have a sense of humor, Christopher. Me, not so much. Did you have something to add, Gregory? - Christopher A Carr

hello, mr carr, just drawn to the subject of the original post, enjoyed the thread, my two rupees worth is to imply that there are larger, and perhaps more accurate, understandings of these great questions available in other parts of the world, in other systems of inquiry, in other languanges. the western mind can be amusing. - Gregory Lent

For Christopher: (I'll come back to the Sapir-Whorfian Lent in a moment). This is difficult to express. Where brains generate minds that contain models of themselves that are sort of recursively referenced, the thing referenced is not the *brain*... so I continue to fail to see where there is a thing that could be described as "will" acting in a way that can be described as "free."... more... - Christopher A Carr

Mr. Lent: Are you really a strong linguistic relativist? If so, you are wrong. - Christopher A Carr

I think you might get some kind of abstract freedom once you arbitrarily define a system and can prove that the complexity of transformation by which this system shapes the outside environment, in which it is embedded, does trump the specific effectiveness of the environmental influence on the defined system. In other words, mind over matter. You are able to shape reality more effectively and goal-oriented and thus, in a way, overcome its crude influence it exerts on you. - Alexander Kruel

Alex: That's just intelligence, so far as I understand what you're on about. - Christopher A Carr

When I say "the thing referenced is not the *brain*," I mean that brains didn't evolve to solve problems in brain-habitats -- rather, brains process information in a way that organisms can accomplish procreation in the presence of trees and grass and so forth. We didn't evolve in a brain landscape. "We" don't *decide* to initiate neural activity. Neural activity initiates us... - Christopher A Carr

Yes, as far as I understood, the new definition of free will that Christopher Harris and other people are talking about here, does to a certain extent equalize free will with control and thus, I assume, intelligence. For example, children and some mentally handicapped people are not responsible in same the way as healthy adults. They can not give consent or enter into legally binding... more... - Alexander Kruel

You are right, this new definition of free will only works once you arbitrarily define a system to be an entity within an environment contrary to being the environment. Thus the neural activity, being either consciously aware and controled by the system itself, or not, is no valid argument within this framework. Of course, in a strong philosophical sense this definition fails to address... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander: We might be close now to being able to write this whole thread off as a semantic quibble. - Christopher A Carr

It was very interesting, nonetheless... :-) "quibble" might be not a good word as it connotes pettiness. And this discussion wasn't petty. - Christopher A Carr

if you did neuorscience research on "mind" in sanskrit, instead of english, you would do very different experiments .. five very different words for aspects of mind that the single english word clumps together .. is that relativism? dunno. i see it as an obvious limitation of "science" - Gregory Lent

Greenland natives have many, many words for snow. In no sense does that imply that english-speaking research into snow would be limited. Snow is still snow. Your mind betrays you Gregory ;-) - Nils Reinton

nils, you would never say that sentence, or have that thought, were you a native greenland speaker - Gregory Lent

Nils is from Norway, close enough I say! - Christopher Harris

Gregory, http://scottaaronson.com/blog... - "This is a mystery that could not even have been formulated within the nineteenth-century mathematical universe of Hermann Weyl." - There is some conclusiveness in what you are saying, but in reality it never comes down to the difference of popular concepts within natural languages but rather mathematical formulations. Colloquial or scientific terminology is being conceived afterwards as, for example, it happened within String theory and other modern concepts. - Alexander Kruel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Christopher Harris

Gregory. My point is that having many words for something does not mean you understand it better. I have very diverse experiences with snow, but in describing snow in a particular setting I would use adjectives or build whole sentences around the word "snow". This is similar to studying the mind - where you seek to understand the object "mind" and then describe what you learn, - not by... more... - Nils Reinton

This thread and the Asian nipple licking thread (http://ff.im/1hqgl) are the two threads I can always count on being present in my feed :) - Eivind

Mental models and counterfactual thoughts about what might have been: http://bit.ly/7pUOBK -- "Counterfactual thoughts about what might have been (‘if only…’) are pervasive in everyday life. They are related to causal thoughts, they help people learn from experience and they influence diverse cognitive activities, from creativity to probability judgements. They give rise to emotions and... more... - Alexander Kruel

Mr. Gunn to Mr.'s feed, The Life Scientists, LSW, Article-level metrics

A draft letter to the OSTP on behalf of Friendfeed Life Scientists: http://etherpad.com/AXtmx352T4

December 18 - Comment - Like - Share

Hope Leman, Piotr Byzia, Richard Akerman and 10 other people liked this

please add your comments re: benefits, problems, timing of deposit, locus of deposit, etc. - Mr. Gunn

15 more comments

'on behalf of Friendfeed Life Scientists' not sure I understand, what do you mean? - Attila Csordas

The idea is for everyone or anyone who has interest to contribute to the document, thereby making it "from us". - Mr. Gunn

I have some ideas, but others might have relevant citations at hand they could easily add. - Mr. Gunn

"Every day, scientists are denied access to publications because they or their institution cannot afford to subscribe to the journal in which the paper is published" An argument against this is that academic scientists can get most if not all of the publications through interlibrary loan. Perhaps it would be useful to mute this argument and point out that a) delivery can take a long... more... - Kubke

Among benefits, I think that adding access outside of academic instituions (that dont have inerlibrary loan) (e.g., policy advisors), ability to access published data when evaluating a grant proposal or a grant report (where deadlines are not compatible with the timelenght of trying to find access to the paper elsewhere). I (personally) see OA also an issue of accountability through transparency. - Kubke

There is also a reduction in cost in not having to pay for permission to use/reuse data in educational material, public talks, books chapters etc. Being able to use the original images (rather than a rehashed version to avoid copyright charges) enhances proper attribution of the author. - Kubke

The big point about saving costs is that most of these costs are hidden and (at least in the US case) almost all of them are borne by the taxpayer. There are new direct costs that arise from OA and there is some argument that these could actually be higher than existing ones - e.g. marginal costs of making author payments depends on the efficiency of finance provision by academic... more... - Cameron Neylon

There are also direct costs that widespread OA removes: the need to build complicated and expensive firewalls, the costs of negotiating licenses, etc. It can be hard to argue about these, however, because they persist as long as TA does. - D0r0th34

One of the most useful features of OA as an author is that you retain copyright - so you can republish in other formats without needing permission. For example you could republish a chemistry paper on ChemSpider Journal, with the benefit of semantic markup by ChemMantis. We have also republished our JoVE paper as an application note for Mettler-Toledo. A related benefit is many OA... more... - Jean-Claude Bradley

since this is in response to http://blog.ostp.gov/2009... is the deadline tomorrow or jan 7? - Mike Chelen

Trying to think of how to mute arguments against OA mandate. TA journals could argue that nothing is preventing the researchers from making the data itself available (as opposed to the published paper). It might be good to run through why alternatives are man-hour costly and as cameron says are ultimately paid for by taxpayers (inerlibrary loan, emailing the authors, buildign a second set of data figures, etc). - Kubke

And, OA helps overcome social inequalities that come with the copyright issues. If a public talk cannot be put online because of copyright costs, only public in large cities have access to the public talk. Small state colleges, universities with less $ for subscription puts a higher demand on the researchers trying to access the data providing an unfair advantage to 'rich' universities... more... - Kubke

As for the mandate itself from NIH it has forced some publishers to go the green route despite a heavy opposition. For example the American Chemical Society allows their authors to self-archive 12 months after publication if they can show that their work was funded by the NIH. - Jean-Claude Bradley

Yes. There is also a sort of demilitarization effect among researchers, assuaging their concerns about OA because after all, everybody has to do it. It's practically impossible for anyone except a major funder to create such an incentive. Institutions can't act jointly, and nobody else has that kind of power. - D0r0th34

The deadline for comments about the first phase of the OSTP Policy Forum is today (Dec. 20). My own contribution to the first phase is available via http://ff.im/da45f - Jim Till

Phase 2 was launched on Dec.21: http://blog.ostp.gov/2009... - Jim Till

Paulo Nuin

Every time I install a new cartridge on a printer, I can smell the rip-off

Tuesday - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton and Bill Hooker liked this

Last time I bought a printer I was pleased to find how far prices had dropped... then my wife explained the "business model" to me. - Bill Hooker

Also, we usually don't factor in all the test, cleaning and aligning pages that waste a considerable amount of ink. - Paulo Nuin

More on the business model from Network World: "What's Cheaper: Replacement Ink, or a New Printer?" http://www.networkworld.com/news... - Peter Murray

Sally Church

The roller coaster of life - http://www.pharmastrategyblog.com/2009...

Tuesday from Pharma Strategy Blog - Comment - Like - Share

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Paulo Nuin

Anti-Vax movement among worst ideas of the decade - http://www.reddit.com/r...

December 22 from Reddit - Comment - Like - Share

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Bob O'Hara

RT: @NatureNews: Rage against the paywall: Nature, set your news free http://www.finestructure.com/2009... & facebk grp http://www.facebook.com/group...

December 22 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton, Björn Brembs, Alun Salt and 2 other people liked this

Christopher Harris

The Intelligence² Debate - Christopher Hitchens (Unedited) | Atheist Planet - http://atheistplanet.blogspot.com/2009...

December 20 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

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watch this, this is really good - Christopher Harris

Alexander Kruel

Norwegian public broadcaster torrents 7-hour, hi-def trainride - http://www.boingboing.net/2009...

December 20 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Bill Hooker, Michael Bravo, Nils Reinton and 3 other people liked this

"Espen sez, "The Norwegian broadcaster NRK recently made a 7 hour program about the very scenic train journey from Bergen to Oslo. The program was hugely successful (the TV version offered interviews and various things along the ride). The raw film from the front camera is now being offered as a free Bittorrent download under a CC license and there is even a competition (in Norwegian) for best reuse." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Wildcat

Question of the day: do you (or would you) take mind\brain enhancing prescription drugs? (provigil-ritalin and such) informal\ non scientific poll for a coming paper on Cognitive Enhancement

December 15 - Comment - Like - Share

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No - Cynthia

50 more comments

why not? if you knew the cognitive advantage it will give you with minimal or non-existent side effects? - Wildcat

oops, no thanks! :) fortunately I'm in good health and I don't believe in non-existent side effects - Not for now - maybe in my next life I'll take it - Cynthia

ahh! ok, but the question is not about health but about enhancement (the question presupposes that one is in good health) - Wildcat

Depends on side effects, can you be sure there will be none.... - Tristan Hambling

OK, but I do believe in not welcome side effects. - Cynthia

for the purpose of this non official poll assume little \inconsequential or non existent side effects - Wildcat

then you're trying to have only "yes" answers... - Cynthia

Cynthia, no, the point of the question (and the coming essay) concerns the ethical\moral questions of mind brain enhancement and their influence on our society- culture and the evolution of human civilization - Wildcat

OK. Now I got it. My personal answer still is NO, considering where, how, ... I live. I'm satisfied with my brain skills and I don't think I will became a genious. Maybe I recomend for other people (non sarcastic!) - Cynthia

About health (side-effects etc.): At this moment I'd only take them if it was really important to master some serious task. / Generally: Any time! - Reasons: My most important goal in life, my greatest desire is to harvest knowledge, learn and understand. I want to comprehend reality even if it means that who I am right now would cease to exist en route. I also think that civilisation... more... - Alexander Kruel

in general I think we agree, I wonder however concerning:"my greatest desire is to harvest knowledge, learn and understand" do you equate this with happiness ? - Wildcat

if there were not long term side effects... definitely, yes. - Anibal M. Astobiza

I would, but I would like to design them myself or in collaboration with others... I have been thinking more however of direct engineering / manipulation of endogenous cannabinoid and opiod systems utilizing implants or nano vectors of sorts... - pareidoliac

see the latest feed here : http://friendfeed.com/anibalm... - Wildcat

interesting point pareidoliac, given the means of production\design you would directly engineer your mind\brain to attain.. what exactly? a higher state of cognitive functionality? extended perception? cannnabinoids and opiates will definitely alter your state of mind, the questions is of course towards what direction? - Wildcat

@Wildcat What is happiness? I equate it with satisfaction. I'm not happy if I stop learning. I tried it several times. Too much effort I thought, just played games and doing other leisured activities. But dumb people bug me too much to stay uneducated myself. Something was missing, I wasn't happy. Then I realized something that is better expressed by somebody else, I think you've read it before: http://www.davideagleman.com/descent... (everybody should read this.) - Alexander Kruel

ahh! yes very good essay indeed and I concur it should be read by everyone.. however sliding down the ladder of evolution is irreversible..no, if all goes well, we will be able to metamorphose into whatever form of life we consider pertinent at the time of transition, if nothing else this could bring us into a larger understanding and empathy of all forms of life, currently inaccessible to us..that would give lots of happiness, I agree - Wildcat

btw : Nick Bostrom has one of the writings (pdf : http://www.nickbostrom.com/) on the subject, check it out : Cognitive enhancement takes many and diverse forms. Various methods of cognitive enhancement have implications for the near future. At the same time, these technologies raise a range of ethical issues. For example, they interact with notions of authenticity, the good life, and... more... - Wildcat

Actually, all we have do to is figure out how to overcome the first-person perspective. How to overcome subjectivity. Once we can share consciousness, we can learn what it means to 'be'. I don't think this is impossible. But the greatest intellect will be the meta-being that encompasses a wide range and variety of perspectives, maybe giving rise to a whole new level of understanding and valuation. I think consciousness is the merger of perception and comprehension. - Alexander Kruel

metabeing? global brain? AI+human? one mind? - Wildcat

this discussion always gets way ahead of itself. i think Cynthia makes a good point in that 'mind enhancing' drugs will always be idiosyncratic and messy, with some good effects and some bad effects and some plain weird effects and some effects which are specific to your particular brain and circumstance. talking about 'mind enhancement' in general is a bit silly and only transhumanists would arrange lectures on whether we should 'engineer away boredom' or some such fantasy. stay specific. - Christopher Harris

Yeah. Well, one mind, but that does not imply a loss of selfhood. As one being is adopted, you adopt all its desires on which its actions are based. The difference is the complete integration of this entities consciousness into the hive or hyperbeing/AI. As humans we think one-dimensional when it comes to goals. But what we do is also the result of a fight of different memes, or wishes... more... - Alexander Kruel

@Christopher Harris I ignored 'drugs' and just took general mind-enhancement as topic. All there is to say about drugs is obviously what you and Cynthia mentioned. - Alexander Kruel

@Alex yes, let's talk in even more abstract terms, that'll help. - Christopher Harris

I'm sorry, Christopher is right. Forget what I said. About drugs, I agree "that 'mind enhancing' drugs will always be idiosyncratic and messy, with some good effects and some bad effects and some plain weird effects and some effects which are specific to your particular brain and circumstance." - Alexander Kruel

Christopher, the reality of idiosyncrasy, concerning individual brains notwithstanding, the actual usage of prescription medicine such as Adderall, Ritalin and modafinil (Provigil) and the like for cognitive (some say recreational) enhancement is on the rise (especially among university and college students and prof), shouldn't the issue be taken more seriously? - Wildcat

again as published in Nature : Towards responsible use of cognitive-enhancing drugs by the healthy: http://www.nature.com/nature... - Wildcat

Absolutely. I just think talking about specific methods of enhancement makes more sense than talking about enhancement in general. That's an excellent paper btw, enjoyed it very much. - Christopher Harris

I think brain enhancement is really really important and I try to encourage debate about specific ways to do it. I also get very frustrated with the transhumanist tendency to shoot off into science-fiction at the slightest opportunity. - Christopher Harris

Definitely agree with you on this, the tendency to slide into tangential and non-productive discourse, takes away from the real issue at play here, namely practical and specific methods of cognitive enhancement, (Iodine\ salt is a quick reference) (this is a very good paper on the current state of affairs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... (though from 2008) - Wildcat

ooo, very interesting :) thx - Christopher Harris

Heh...these drugs would have been science-fiction not long ago! Anyway, you two should check out this article: http://www.newscientist.com/article... - I think that might be the most profound realistic enhancement we could arguably take into account here. - Alexander Kruel

Ritalin is horrible stuff. Modafinil was much better and just kept me together this time last year when I had chronic insomnia. I haven't taken it since, but would see no reason not to if I was ever in the same situation and needed that particular 'enhancement' to get through a week of work. - Daniel Swan

The real question is:'Is there some cognitive ability which you need but wouldn't be able to obtain naturally in the reasonable time, and if so, would you accept an extra help, if it's guaranteed there is no hidden catch'? Immortality/longevity might also be an alternative solution here, as well as the joined minds. It depends on the purpose. - Ashalynd from fftogo

Ashalynd, would you define 'naturally' in this context, pls? - Wildcat

No. Side effects - LANjackal

After all comments and a good night's sleep, my new oppinion: I should take those drugs if necessary, besides of side effects and all. By 'if necessary' I have a extent list. - Cynthia

@Cynthia Great, you just won a lot of brownie points :-) - Alexander Kruel

Alex , play nice.. :-) and Cynthia, care to enumerate the "necessary list" (remember that we do speak of enhancement, not of therapy) - Wildcat

@Wildcat Huh? I was absolutely serious. She just won a lot of esteem in my opinion. I'm not being sarcastic. - Alexander Kruel

Ok, no problem.. (I am not very fond of brownies..:-) - Wildcat

Cognitive enhancement may be defined as the amplification or extension of core capacities of the mind through improvement or augmentation of internal or external information processing systems. (Cognitive Enhancement: Methods, Ethics, Regulatory Challenges Nick Bostrom and Anders Sandberg) - Wildcat

So turning off sleep doesn't count? After all it gives you a lot more time. What about the use of psychedelic drugs in art? I understand cognitive enhancement using prescription drugs as applied chemistry. - Alexander Kruel

interesting thread; to answer your original question: yes, i would try them (brain-enhancing drugs) because it's the only way i could truly assess their value (and side-effects). - james reilly

@james reilly hah...the problem with everything that has to do with your brain is that once you mess up, there's sometimes no way back. - Alexander Kruel

Normann & Berger article: "So far, all clinical trials of neuroenhancing drugs have either failed or demonstrated only very limited efficacy." I might be interested to test these if there were clear indications that it works. Till then, I think I'll stick to nicotine :-) - François Dongier

@Alex - I wasn't planning to take them if there was a risk of irreversible brain damage! (not yet anyway, and the upside would have to be really worth it:, lol, :-) Whatever the personal ethics involved, there is the greater, ethical need for harmonising relations between and within human societies and also their relations to the planet. Maybe we're just not smart enough yet. Neuro-enhancement may yield (and maybe not) new ways of thinking about and transcending these problems. It's worth exploring, anyway. - james reilly

@james reilly What I had in mind are drugs that cause personality change, especially alter your will, rather than 'brain damage'. - Alexander Kruel

@Wildcat - "naturally" means using brainpower without external stimulants (like growing muscles via exercise). a vague definition though. - Ashalynd

To me, messing with drugs looks a little bit like hacking around when you can't access the system codes and try to find the backdoors into it anyway... is it really the only approach we have?.. - Ashalynd

see this highly correlated article "Changing our minds"( http://spacecollective.org/Spacewe... ) I have connected this thread of comments to the article. - Wildcat

Christopher Harris

New Zeeland church sports controversial billboard http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...

December 18 - Comment - Like - Share

laura, Eph Zero, Rajarshi Guha and 2 other people liked this

Kirsten Sanford

"Discussing climate change", or "how I learned to like bags of worms" - http://www.kirstensanford.com/2009...

December 16 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

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Eivind

BBC News - Climate change summit leaves sceptical Russia cold - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...

December 16 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

M F, Eric Logan and Nils Reinton liked this

"As President Dmitry Medvedev prepares to join talks to save the planet in Copenhagen, only a minority of Russians will be worrying much about the outcome. Climate change and the environment are not big issues for most Russians - and most of the time the government seems equally unconcerned. "Global warming, the Kyoto Protocol, cutting emissions, nuclear waste, incinerators - it might be a topic of discussion among Moscow's business elite, but the masses are nowhere near these issues. No-one's talking about them," said former Russian deputy prime minister Boris Nemtsov, an outspoken critic of the current Russian government. "There is one popular opinion, though - that Russia is a cold country and warming it up slightly wouldn't do any harm." Russia has pledged to ensure that greenhouse gas emissions in 2020 are at least 25% below 1990 levels." - Eivind from Bookmarklet

4 more comments

"A BBC poll conducted this summer suggests that Russia is far less concerned about climate change than other European countries. Only 46% of 1,008 respondents in Russia said it was a "very serious" problem, and only 54% favoured government investment to address climate change if it might hurt the economy - figures closer to those for the US or India than for Western Europe." - Eivind

"He believes that the government's position stems from Russia's choice to be "the West's resources appendage", which he says is "by definition, anti-ecological". "That's our ideology, that's why we only think about drilling for more and more oil and selling it to the West. Who's thinking about ecology? Who cares that 10% of oil will spill or leak out while being transported to the West? No-one does... That's not important, what's important is getting the money, building a new house and buying new cars." " - Eivind

"Ordinary people worry most about low salaries and ever-rising prices, unemployment, corruption, crime and terrorism. They don't lose sleep over the fact that the country is accepting trainloads of French nuclear waste, and that unsorted domestic and commercial waste is being burned in incinerators around the country without regard for the toxic gases released. Twenty-five-year-old... more... - Eivind

Just for the record I think it is real. I think the data has been skewed by the IPCC which is really just a well funded U.N. lobbyist group. I think there is much less consensus on the science than most realize. I think that effects have been exaggerated to spur legislation and I think cap and trade is the wrong solution. - Eric Logan

I know, I've read a few AGW debates in here :) For the record I love the cap, but I'm a bit skeptical about how well the trade works (the current implementation, not the principle). I don't know a lot about it, but I've seen a few reports a while back about fishy 'trade' deals. - Eivind

Björn Brembs to Björn's feed, The Life Scientists, Science Online

The official Dilbert on the science of office equipment - http://dilbert.com/

December 15 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Mike Chelen, Tom Walsh, Nils Reinton and 4 other people liked this

References Wanted: Graham Steel

POLL. As a direct result of this FF thread http://friendfeed.com/science... I've created a one question poll. The question is "Is it appropriate to raise the visibility of the References Wanted room outwith FriendFeed?". The possible answers are "yes", "no", or "unsure". I would be really grateful if subscribers to this room would participate.

December 8 - Comment - Like - Share

Sandeep Gautam, Kubke, Joe and 7 other people liked this

Poll is here:- http://www.micropoll.com/akira... Thank you in advance. - Graham Steel

39 more comments

Just to expand briefly on Graham's intro: I think the RW room is covered by Fair Use (nota bene, ianal). Nonetheless, the likely result of any legal challenge by publishers would be that FF would shut the room down as a precaution, and we'd have to fight to re-open it. I doubt we have the resources for that fight, so as a matter of realpolitik I'm voting to continue to fly under the... more... - Bill Hooker

^^What Bill said. Yes, the world absolutely needs access to the scientific literature, but we need to work to reform the publishing process and the laws. All things considered, this is a very small room, which is why it hasn't attracted the ire of the publishers. If we advertise and it gets large, the industry will start playing the same whack-a-mole lawsuit game that they do with music or movie sites. - Chris Miller

I voted "No" - Pierre Lindenbaum

Please keep voting folks. A dozen in so far, thanks. - Graham Steel

The referenced thread is about a letter to the journal Cell in which we promote FriendFeed. The RW room will be the single most attractive feature for people who have never used social media. I also think it helps to show a large readership what kinds of hoops we will jump through to get access - and the RW has a great record of people not having access. So in the end, all publicity... more... - Björn Brembs

I'd love to read that Cell paper if possible! http://is.gd/5fQ0D I voted 'unsure' on the poll, perhaps not very helpful, but I thought that my 'yes' might not be as strong as the poll's yes might be demanding. I would like more people to be aware of this helpful service, but to hear of it as word of mouth rather than a 'one to many' broadcast in a journal article. I suppose I'm voting for the status quo (of this room), but with gradual increases in numbers. #fencesitting ;) - Jo Brodie

I would be more concerned about publishers cutting off access to individuals known to be supplying papers in the room for breech of TOS. It has happened to one of our researchers but for other reasons. - suelibrarian from iPhone

Here is the draft of the letter: http://etherpad.com/Microbl... Note that we do not need to spell out the name of the room in the letter, as we do now, just the functionality. I can only re-word my argument from above: cowering before the possible reprisals of 'big publishers' is definitely not the best way to change the current publishing model. In fact, anybody who... more... - Björn Brembs

I voted no. As I see it, the role of RW is to provide a service, not to instigate a revolution or provide a soapbox for change in the publishing industry. I don't think it's fair to create the potential for unpleasant repercussions through wider publicity for a "cause", certainly not without the full knowledge and agreement of everyone who has ever used the room. - Neil Saunders

@Bjoern, it's not "no big deal" to open another room -- that simply won't work, corporate copyright lawyers are quite good at whack-a-mole and we cannot expect FriendFeed to fight our Death To Toll Access battle with us. As I said above, the fight you are spoiling for is worth having, but I don't want to pick it and then get my ass kicked. If you really want people to fight, you'll need... more... - Bill Hooker

The purpose of the room is explicitly "to document the harm caused by closed/toll-access publication". What's the purpose of collecting this data if we're not going to publish it? Voted yes, apparently against the consensus, whose arguments I'm sympathetic to, but it seems to me like even if we did mention the RW room in a letter it would still only have visibility to a quite small audience. Perhaps the poll choices should have been "yes, publish the RW room/No, don't publish yet"? - Mr. Gunn

28 votes so far, with "no" currently in the lead. - Bill Hooker

What about mentioning the functionality but not the room? If we include a link to the etherpad in which the letter has been prepared, interested people would find the information. - Daniel Mietchen

A few thoughts. 1) It is possible to vote multiple times, I noticed. 2) @Neil: as Mr. Gunn pointed out, the explicit purpose of the room is to document, not to provide a service. What's the point to document, when the document remains secret? 3) @Bill: point taken. However, the mere fact of multi-billion dollar corporations (who, unlike the RIAA, make their money from tax-dollars!!)... more... - Björn Brembs

Also unlike the music industry, the three major publishers have had increasing profits for at least the last five years, with 2008 (of all years!) being a record year with double-digit growth rates for some and a total of almost 5 billion dollars in profits for the three largest corporations alone - and that when other large publishing businesses seem not to have such a great time... more... - Björn Brembs

Couple things. 1) researchers are not the only people here; publishers have shown no compunction in going after librarians. 2) in the library literature, it's fairly well-established that researchers are asking other researchers for copies of articles, rather than (sometimes in addition to) going through ILL and document-delivery services. - D0r0th34

I don't know if this has been studied, but the reasons for that, D0r0th34, have to do with the overhead. To ask a colleague, all you have to do is send them an email. ILL requires forms and accounts and waiting periods and follow-up and so on. - Mr. Gunn

yes, that's the usual reason given :) - D0r0th34

Procedural suggestion - I don't use the RW room for reasons I can go into elsewhere but I voted I don't know because I didn't. I actually take Bjorn's point though - what is the point if it doesn't change things? Anyway the suggestion - rather than people posting that they've sent stuff I suggest people post when they receive a copy. It would even be possible to set up a dead letter... more... - Cameron Neylon

I am behind Bjørn on this, I voted yes and at the time the yes -side was winning. In my opinion, this is a fight worth taking and if that happens, worth loosing. - Nils Reinton

+1 Neil and +1 Cameron. A simple change in the etiquette of the room would protect those sending papers from liability. To fully protect them, though, you'd also have to scrub the archives, something that isn't easy to do on the internet. - Chris Miller

Changing the etiquette in that way is a tacit admission that we are doing something wrong, OR that we are doing something we don't believe is either wrong or illegal but that we fully expect we could be punished for anyway (because the system is unjust). If we are going to fight the good fight as above, we would be better off not handing our opponents the opportunity to argue for the... more... - Bill Hooker

I'll admit to not following the 'fair use' argument very closely, but I'm under the impression that sharing such articles is a clear violation of an institution's TOS with the publisher. I'll readily agree that something can be just but illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that there could be repercussions against those providing articles. Every movement needs its zealots, but I'm more of a casual supporter, and certainly am not willing to go down for the cause. I suspect there are many others like me. - Chris Miller

Chris, it does appear that our use of References Wanted falls under fair use as I figure it: http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC... - Mr. Gunn

Yes, I also think it is fair use, though I am aware that just the suspicion of this not being the case may be enough to shut down the room. Besides, we have Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig on our sides: http://ff.im/9xiRN . - Daniel Mietchen

Chris's point is a good one - fair use is one thing but its definitely a technical violation of most TOS. On the other hand its not clear that library users sign up to the TOS, the librarians do, which takes us back to Dorothea's point. I take Bill's point though. If you think its a fight worth fighting then it should be done out in the open. The question is both strategic and tactical.... more... - Cameron Neylon

A very kind person sent me a copy of the letter to Cell - unfortunately it was picked up by my mail system's quarantine and instead of rerouteing it safely to my inbox I have to admit I pressed the wrong button and deleted it. Might I trouble them to resend it to me? http://is.gd/5fQ0D <embarassed> - Jo Brodie

http://friendfeed-media.com/50c126f... - Björn Brembs

Given that you can vote multiple times and only 40 votes have been cast, does that mean that about 75% of the subscribers to this room don't care enough to vote? - Björn Brembs

well, you have to figure on some attention attrition, there -- I have a lot of FFeeps who don't seem to actually use the service - D0r0th34

Jo, in case it wasn't clear -- that link from Bjoern goes to the Cell letter. - Bill Hooker

@Björn, that was only the second online poll that I've created and realised shortly after creating it that there _might_ be a potential issue with multiple votes. Can't drill the stats so will have to work on trust. Many of the subscribers to RW don't frequent that often in terms of posting, so I think it's unlikely that the "n" of 40 on the poll is likely to increase much further than as it stands. Moving forward, I guess we'll have to rely on the stats of 57% no 30% yes and 13% unsure. - Graham Steel

Sorry for just posting the link, was in a hurry! - Björn Brembs

@Graham: The question now is, what do we do with the poll? I don't think it really tells us all that much. Moreover, I think none of the arguments for publishing have seen any serious refutation. On the other hand, I don't want to dismiss the counter arguments completely. I suggest we go ahead and describe the functionality without mentioning the room name, even though I think it would be much more effective to mention it explicitly. Any comments/suggestions? - Björn Brembs

I for one agree with that suggestion. What do others think... - Graham Steel

I voted to mention the name but since the majority of votes are against I think Bjorn s suggestion is a good balance. - Pedro Beltrao

+1 Pedro - Nils Reinton

Presumably the letter's authors will give links to their FF accounts, then it's just a matter of scrolling through their posts until, aha!, "Refs Wanted" must be the room they were talking about. So is there really much difference between describing and naming the room? - Bill Hooker

@Bill: You're right, of course, in that it is more a token of appreciation of the other arguments than an effective step towards concealing the room. Alas, it is the only 'middle ground' I could think of. - Björn Brembs

Thank you Björn and Bill :) - Jo Brodie

Paulo Nuin

Norwegians Must Be Asking: Why Obama for Peace Prize After Snub? - http://www.reddit.com/r...

December 14 from Reddit - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton liked this

laura

Abstruse Goose » Good News - http://abstrusegoose.com/220

December 14 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton liked this

Benjamin Tseng

How bad *is* "Climategate"? (HT: @anthonyphan) - http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009...

December 9 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Michael Kuhn, Nils Reinton, Lars Juhl Jensen and Neil Saunders liked this

Hmm. That's actually very interesting - albeit focused on one station. Would be nice to see responses from scientists - perhaps they're buried in the (many) comments? - Neil Saunders

2 more comments

Yeah I'm hoping RealClimate or someone like that will do a feature on it... - Benjamin Tseng

Makes me think that the data scientists here should go off in search of public data and see what they can find. - Neil Saunders

Interesting write up... means nothing of course (wrt global warming or not), as the author himselves notes too... but it does make the point that data this important to mankind must be Open. Period. Maybe the people in Copenhagen can decide on that: make all data used in climate studies lawfully required to be Open. - Egon Willighagen

Mr. Gunn

An anonymous source has informed me that the ASCB has banned “replication of data” by visitors, but has presented Twitter as the poster child of conference data... - http://synthesis.williamgunn.org/2009...

December 6 from Synthesis - Comment - Like - Share

Mike Chelen, Daniel Mietchen, Benjamin Tseng and 5 other people liked this

Sad, just sad - Deepak Singh

11 more comments

"forms of communication involving replication of data" - pretty much invalidates the entire conference? - Neil Saunders

I wonder if people are allowed to talk - Deepak Singh from IM

Natural selection in action. Either another set of organizers, or another conference, will take over as this one dies off. - Bill Hooker

What is the point of scientific conferences again? - 'Mummi' Thorisson

What was the point in science again? - Cameron Neylon

What was the point of life again? [descending into pessimism...and trip to the pub] - 'Mummi' Thorisson

Bill, another source reports that attendance seems way off this year from what it has been in the past. - Mr. Gunn

As I see it, the problem is one of copyright. All the biologists I know (and to a degree, myself included) are alright with presenting pre-publication data at a conference as long as it isn't digitally recorded or disseminated. If there were a way to enforce "first presentation rights", less people would worry about getting scooped and be more willing to share unpublished data. - Walter Jessen

It'd be nice if the talk were publicly available, either during or very soon after the talk. Then, this public record, combined with the tweets, blogs, etc. would provide pretty good evidence of who did the work and presented it first. At least for me it would. Even as it stands now, though, if scooping is a worry, it seems to me that allowing the audience to tweet & blog will make it... more... - Steve Koch

Walter, you might be right, but surely it has been disseminated in the form of conference abstract prior to someone tweeting about it. If they have copyright concerns, they're simply not understanding things. - Mr. Gunn

I disagree - abstracts are much different than data. I like Steve's idea .. let's get the status quo to swing in the opposite direction and make everything publicly available following conferences and meetings. - Walter Jessen

what is so harmful about having your research referenced by another? if it is cited, it can bring attention and acclaim to the original. if it is not properly cited, then that is itself the problem - Mike Chelen

Daniel Mietchen

What if it's a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing? - http://tomate.soup.io/post...

December 9 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Egon Willighagen, Neil Saunders, Nils Reinton and 2 other people liked this

Benjamin Tseng to Benjamin's feed, The Life Scientists

Amazing gel shows Ubiquitin is transferred one-at-a-time and on a millisecond timescale! - http://www.iayork.com/Mystery...

December 3 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Yaroslav Nikolaev, Andrew Perry, arek and 17 other people liked this

That's awesome. - Bill Hooker

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Ian York rocks, as do the scientists who did this. - Mr. Gunn

Gels still speak, even without lasers... - Mark A Jensen

My initial reaction was "how can anyone pipette that quickly !" ... but it seems they have some fancy quench-flow equipment to get around that problem. Very cool. - Andrew Perry

Paulo Nuin

The Climate Deniers vs The Consensus - http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2009...

December 7 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

tim, Nils Reinton and Benjamin Tseng liked this

james reilly

Publication Bias, 1916 Style - http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2009...

December 7 from Neuroskeptic - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton liked this

laura

Artificial - http://abstrusegoose.com/215

December 6 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Winfried Hoffmann, Ashalynd, Nils Reinton and Christopher Harris liked this

excellent :) - Christopher Harris

Paulo Nuin

Top climate scientists share their outlook - This is such a good report and from the Financial Times. I did not expect such quality - and the insights on some of the key climate people is most interesting. - http://www.reddit.com/r...

December 5 from Reddit - Comment - Like - Share

Nils Reinton, Pawel Szczesny, Andrew Perry and 3 other people liked this

Eivind

How To Not Get Blinded With Science - http://www.scientificblogging.com/adaptiv...

December 3 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

VAL D. Zone and Nils Reinton liked this

"I thought global warming was all bog-standard, apocalyptic nonsense when it first emerged in the 1980s. People, I knew, like nothing better than an End-of-the-World story to give their lives meaning. I also knew that science is dynamic. Big ideas rise and fall. Once the Earth was the centre of the universe. Then it wasn’t. Once Isaac Newton had completed physics. Then he hadn’t. Once there was going to be a new ice age. Then there wasn’t. Armed with such historic reversals, I poured scorn on under-educated warmists. Scientists with access to the microphone, I pointed out, had got so much so wrong so often. This was yet another case of clever people, who should have known better, running around screaming, “End of the World! End of the World!” and of less-clever people finding reasons to tell everybody else why they were bad. And then I made a terrible mistake. I started questioning my instinct, which was to disbelieve every scare story on principle..." - Eivind from Bookmarklet

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"Actually, this post isn't about global warming. It's about how to figure out what to believe when it comes to science that you're not able to evaluate on your own because you lack the highly specialized technical expertise to judge that particular field. All of us, great scientists included, (Freeman Dyson, I'm looking at you) are frankly clueless about large swaths of scientific... more... - Eivind

1) Believe the mainstream consensus. - Eivind

2) Learn to live with ambiguity and uncertainty. - Eivind

3) Contrarianism may be cool, but that doesn't make it right. - Eivind

4) The side that invokes conspiracy theories in any scientific argument is pretty much almost always the wrong side. - Eivind

5) Big scientific ideas are always supported by multiple lines of evidence, often from different disciplines. - Eivind

When it comes to what to believe all you need are overcomingbias.com and lesswrong.com - Start from there. I for my part can't be arsed. - Alexander Kruel

Que? - Eivind

nm - Alexander Kruel

The whole mainstream science vs. crazy 'independent thinkers' fight is so dumb imnsho. It seems beneficial for two sides to exist, but neither one seems to see it that way. - Lo

You often have multiple sides within real science. I don't see the need for crazy. I'm not sure what you mean by the fight being 'dumb' but I guess many crazy opinions can just be ignored, but some sorts of crazy can be lethal to the people believing it (like Bob Marley). - Eivind

Eivind, I agree. I'm not defending crazy, merely noting that the existence of dissent to the mainstream view is important, period. Science would be fucked without it. (That doesn't mean that every incarnation of dissent is productive, I just fear a "one party" state of science. You know what? I can't say it clearly, so never mind.) - Lo

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