Decentralized moderation is the chat room savior - Robert Scoble

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Decentralized moderation is the chat room savior - http://scobleizer.com/2009...

April 20, 2009 from Scobleizer: Technology,... - Comment - Like - Share

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I wrote this for my friendfeed buddies to explain why friendfeed sees a lot less "a%%hole" and spamming behavior than other places on the Internet. - Robert Scoble

All hail FriendFeed! - Martin Bryant

Martin: the system they built here is pretty darn interesting to study. - Robert Scoble

Hmm, interesting , and yes I think decentralized moderation is a pretty good control (maybe like Churchill said democracy is a pretty good form of government) - but I think the PRIMARY reason Friendfeed doesn't have a ton of jerks and spam is because it doesn't have the masses here yet, just as you said about the early days of the NetMeeting forum. By the way I just used NetMeeting for work yesterday - it was a viable lowest-common-denominator when the fancier options weren't. - Dan Becker

Dan: I totally disagree. When the masses do arrive (who said they haven't arrived yet, by the way? Heheh) this system is far more resistant to problems that have popped up on other forums and chat rooms. - Robert Scoble

Dan: for instance: go ahead, try to spam me. Or, try to be an asshole. I'll show you how we deal with that here and keep the signal to noise level high. - Robert Scoble

The general tone here is conducive to good conversation. Thought-provoking topics, interesting news, and plenty of lively, sensible debate/discussion. Wouldn't be that many people wanting to go against that sort of thing. - George Hall (Australia)

Robert: I know - it's so simple and yet so complex. I tried to do a Screencast about it on Saturday (to encourage people to try FF) and there was so much to cover that it ended up 20 minutes long and I scrapped it. But yes, this model of moderation is very effective and probably the future, if it can be integrated in a wider way across multiple sites. - Martin Bryant

George: see, though, the system here itself makes sure we both behave. This is VERY DIFFERENT than other moderation systems that have been tried. - Robert Scoble

I'm not sure how the system does that, technically... - George Hall (Australia)

One thing I didn't cover on the positive side, is that if you both behave and participate with interesting content your stuff will get "liked" and "commented on" which increases its distribution dramatically. - Robert Scoble

It's true that the masses aren't here yet, but I suspect Robert is right: that even when they arrive the simple concept of having each person moderate their own threads is powerful enough that it will keep bad forum behaviours to a minimum. The question is whether new kinds of bad behaviour, unique to distributed moderation, will arise. - Edward Coffey

George: in short, if you troll here, I'll delete your comment from this thread. Strike one. - Robert Scoble

I think this idea of "decentralized moderation" is also seen in the blogosphere. Here on FriendFeed, every post is like a post on your own blog. You moderate your own comments. FriendFeed is like a centrally hosted blogosphere, on steroids. :) - Meryn Stol

George: if you troll me again, strike two. If you troll me a third time, I'll just block you. - Robert Scoble

Blocking keeps you from seeing my items at all, so you can't attack me anymore. - Robert Scoble

I said it before: The "blog" model has proven to scale. There are millions of blogs, each with its own conversations. - Meryn Stol

Okay, I know I can delete my own comment...and I think, if I remember correctly, the thread-starter might have some control...anything I've missed there? - George Hall (Australia)

Meryn: true, but with one HUGE difference. You have identity here and can be blocked. On my blog? You have NO identity in my comments and can not be blocked and you suffer no ill consequences from me trying, either. - Robert Scoble

George: right, I can delete you on this item because I started it. You can delete me on items you start. - Robert Scoble

Robert, yes. That's a major added benefit of FriendFeed. Something like Disqus, IntenseDebate, Facebook Connect or OpenID could solve that for blogs though. - Meryn Stol

That's good to know, because I've seen the problem with spam/trolling on my blog...so it's good to know I've got some control over the total troll commentors. - George Hall (Australia)

Meryn: it could. If I troll a Disqus blog, and get deleted, do I suffer negative consequences? And, does that blog get removed from my view totally? Nope, right? Well, then, it isn't as resistant as friendfeed is. - Robert Scoble

I can see the actual consequence of getting blocked on friendfeed, as that would affect your overall friendfeed reputation. - George Hall (Australia)

George: it doesn't just change your reputation. If I block you you can no longer see any of my items, comments, or likes. The attack surface you have has been reduced. That's HUGE. - Robert Scoble

The more people blocking you, the harder to really misbehave in the long run. - George Hall (Australia)

Robert, you've got a good point there. In the case of blocking (as opposed to regular moderation) the consequences are far more dire than could be done with blogs: You can exclude people from seeing your own posts. That goes further than excluding people to comment. (I do think we might two types of "blocking", one all-out, one only for blocking comments) - Meryn Stol

All in all, that's quite effective compared to a lot of other sites. - George Hall (Australia)

So that also affects even interacting with other people in your posts, too? - George Hall (Australia)

George: yes. If I block you you can no longer interact with other people in my posts because you can no longer even SEE my posts! You also can't see my comments in other people's posts and my likes are now invisible to you, as well. - Robert Scoble

So what's the exact mechanism for blocking? Haven't exactly paid attention to a block button yet... - George Hall (Australia)

"You also can't see my comments in other people's posts" I don't think that's true. One person has blocked me. I can still see his comments in other people's threads. - Meryn Stol

Robert: The biggest concern I have is possible abuse by moderators. You mention moderator reputation being a factor in preventing unreasonable behaviour on the part of moderators, but is it enough? The idea that I can have a fascinating debate with someone, then tomorrow find the whole thing deleted at the whim of the person I was debating with, or the third party whose thread we were debating on, seems like a disincentive to put a lot of time and though into such a conversation in the first place. - Edward Coffey

Edward: you betcha it's enough. You just wait to see the blowback that happens if someone like me starts deleting comments without cause. - Robert Scoble

I'd venture a guess abusive moderators would, themselves, eventually be blocked by a significant amount of people. - George Hall (Australia)

Meryn: really? Hmmm. Must test that out. I could have sworn that it blocks everything from view. - Robert Scoble

George: if someone deleted my comment and I didn't think they had cause I'd stop liking and commenting their stuff. - Robert Scoble

George: and I might block them just for being a jerk. - Robert Scoble

George: I expect the same would be done to me, too, if I did that. - Robert Scoble

Sounds fair... - George Hall (Australia)

Robert, yes, I thought that at first too, but apparently not. I hope we can get different blocking levels. Then we could make our own "sanctions" against people. BTW I studied some international law in college. There are some similarities. :) - Meryn Stol

Meryn: a graduated scale of blocking?? - George Hall (Australia)

It's fine to block bad people after the fact, but I'd still like to see some mechanism whereby if someone blocked me or deleted my comments, I could still access an archived copy of how the conversation looked before that action occurred. - Edward Coffey

George, yes. I think that if someone is trolling in my threads, I wouldn't want to totally exclude them from my content. I would want them to keep them from commenting again. - Meryn Stol

Edward: I don't mind that it's a death penalty. It's like a nuclear bomb. If you use it too often you end up killing yourself. - Robert Scoble

Robert, funny that you are talking about a nuclear bomb, and I'm talking about international law. I hope we can work towards peaceful sanctions. :D - Meryn Stol

As blocks can also been seen as a form of negative endorsement it would be interesting to see in someone's profile if _my_ friends have blocked him/her. - Jan Ignatius

Meryn: wish it were that easy...you do get some really nasty trolls, especially on Twitter. One springs to mind who pops up during major situations around the world trying to preach hate stuff. On Twitter, blocking them from just one reader's view isn't that effective a solution. - George Hall (Australia)

Jan, agree. That would be some interesting data to see. In general, it would be nice if you could make your block-list public, so that everyone sees who you've blocked. Maybe together with an (optional) reason for blocking. - Meryn Stol

It's also a way to combat against fake accounts blocking a user just to hurt his reputation. - Jan Ignatius

On twitter, a really aggravating, hate-preaching troll can be banned by Twitter, although the example I've cited keeps finding a way to get past that. Ahsan just answered what would have been the next question I was going to ask about friendfeed's method of dealing with that same case. - George Hall (Australia)

George: plus the friendfeed team can see who is earning blocks and I'm sure that can also provide a warning system to check in and see if someone is needing a global block. - Robert Scoble

Presumably a blog using Facebook Connect exclusively for comment posting should move the onus to the real user and hence their reputation and it would solve most of the same issues without the complexity. What do people think? - James Harnedy

Does this lead to users having to join a service like Facebook, before they're allowed to sign on to regular blogs, and social media networks? Does it effectively end up with the 'walled garden' of Facebook (or similar service) enveloping almost the whole public internet - i.e practically all web sites that require a log-in? - Ian May

Does a facebook connect -only approach mean that one always has to comment with his true identity revealed? Surely there is need for pseudonyms in the future too.. - Jan Ignatius

Indeed it restricts your audience but like everything there is a balance and I see a trade-off between ease-of-use and content quality. - James Harnedy

@Robert: how is friendfeed's block different from twitter's block ? - Antoine Bertier

Antoine: if I remember right, they are very similar. - Robert Scoble

One approach could be an openID provider that verifies your real identity but enables you to create pseudonyms tied to this account for every service you want to use. Now, if your pseudonym at service x is blocked you cannot create another one as the openID provider limits your pseudonyms to 1 per domain/service (and you can only have one verified account with that openID provider). - Jan Ignatius

Why doesn't FF provide a comment widget that can be embedded in blog entries? The comment widget can then act as a mini UI tied to the permalink discussion over at FF. To minimize the effect of FF being a walled garden, FF should expand their authentication system to support things like Facebook Connect and OpenID - Edmund Tay

Edmund: there are some Wordpress Plugins that do just what you're talking about. - Robert Scoble

Excellent points. I too have been noticing the gradual degradation of the conversation in chat and forums. I do hope that the system here works to keep FF interesting. - Leo Laporte

Leo: if not, we're coming over your house for conversation and beer! :-) - Robert Scoble

Robert: Wine, surely? :) - Martin Bryant

But I can just create another account and continue attacking. I would love a system that let you say your account has to be X days old and you must have X amount of reputation (waiving magic wand) to comment. - Chris Bartow

Robert: An official Javascript based widget provided by FF would be better because then it will be platform agnostic. Ok, I'll even settle for a 3rd party widget but it shouldn't be tied to a specific platform. With the existing Wordpress Plugin (http://blog.slaven.net.au/wordpre...), you get people like Louis Gray offering to pay for a Blogger version :) - Edmund Tay

Chris: how would you gain reputation if people block you from their threads? - Martin Bryant

yup you nailed it robert, the full control to the end-user of controlling their own experience here in friendfeed is what i've always liked & after only really looking for a presence aggregation service originally - i block w/out remorse so haven't had to delete or moderate comments yet but i like that the functionality is there - mike "glemak" dunn

Martin: That's why I wrote waiving magic wand. It could be by # of friends or stats on a system wide level. Similar to identifying spammers on Twitter by looking at Following vs Followed. - Chris Bartow

Hmm, interesting contrast between being blocked on Friend Feed (so can't follow) and not being able to be blocked from reading a blog. Still, even for a pubic blog, so long as there is some sort of identity scheme, one should be able to restrict commenters, not just delete their particular comments. Is this all just about anonymity, where FriendFeed even controls visibility through it being a registration-required and subscription/following service? I wonder if there is a way to have the social-contract, social-capital aspect of FriendFeed without requiring it to be mediated in the way Friend Feed is. Thoughts? - Dennis E. Hamilton

So it seems that to extend the FF model for moderation well into more of the online conversation, ie blogs, twitter, fb, that several different identity systems may have to be able to leverage the FF model so that 1. users have choice 2. more people can be included in the conversations. - Brendan Cosgrove

+1 Dennis, you said exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread. FriendFeed's comment lockdown is only possible because there are no anonymous comments allowed. There's a reason Robert hasn't disallowed anonymous comments on his blog, and it's because he wants to encourage as many comments as possible. FriendFeed still presents the registration barrier and that's going to drive away some would-be commenters even as it fosters increased participation by the ones who do register. - Daniel J. Pritchett

daniel, i like to remember that ff started as a presence aggregation service and blossomed into a conversational experience, i'm sure you've been followed by what i call "null" friendfeeders: no profile info, avatar, service integration or activity (likes/comments) these are attempts at anonymity that the system easily allows us to recognize - of course once someone starts engaging they have entered the community, even if they started as a "null" user - from there they are judged by their actions in ff - mike "glemak" dunn

I disagree. If 4chan decided to spam your FriendFeed, you'd be blocking for hours. I stand by my claim irc still has the best moderation tools. - Bwana ☠

I think I'll blog reasons why - Bwana ☠

I agree 100% - Scott H

Agree 100% .. after all, here we are a "personal forum/topics administrators"... however diffusion of platform make the difference ... will see if we are right! - CantorJF

bwana - yes, that example is scary and would waste lots of time, pls link to your blog post back in this thread - i'd read it :) - mike "glemak" dunn

Great post, Robert. It came in handy for a discussion I've been having with investor relations officers who are looking at shareholder forums and shaking in their shoes at the idea that anyone can say anything they want on a forum. - Dominic Jones

Ironic - My sites are down :) Hopefully I didn't tick the chans off - Bwana ☠

I have already observed a new kind of trolling that results from the FriendFeed moderation system - I call it microtrolling. If you apply game theory to the decision to block someone, there's a cost-benefit analysis. Contribution vs Rudeness are orthogonal and are determined over time. If someone is rude but never contributes, they'll get blocked quickly, whereas someone who has contributed a lot over time can get away with more rudeness because people will hesitate to lose the expected future... - Robin Barooah

...contribution. The same is true of people who host a lot of interesting discussions. If they themselves are rude, the threshold for blocking them is higher than for someone who doesn't, because you are not only excluding them, you are excluding yourself from discussions they start which involve other people. - Robin Barooah

So someone who is very popular can enter a discussion moderated by a less popular person and there'll be a higher threshold for blocking them if they are rude or disruptive. My name for trolling above the mean threshold but below your own personal threshold (because you're popular) is 'microtrolling'. - Robin Barooah

Robin: That sounds a lot like life. I won't spend time with someone who is rude all the time, but if someone is generally a pretty good person but occasionally a bit of an ass, I'll make allowances. - Edward Coffey

Robert - Thanks for the fabulous post… Hooray! for this uber geeky post! I am super happy to see you continuing to champion FriendFeed.com - my all time favorite social site; clearly yours as well! :) ... While I was reading your post about the FriendFeed “block” feature, Paul Buchheit’s words immediately came to mind … “Do No Evil.” - If that doesn’t say it all, I don’t know what does! That is the basis of the FriendFeed culture. If one can’t live in that reality, they have no business in FF. - Susan Beebe

Edward: It's similar but qualitatively different. I'm saying that their popularity on FriendFeed systematically enables someone to be ruder on other people's threads and face a lower threat of moderation. The fact that the thread is associated more with the with the thread owner increases the effect. If they were consistently rude on their own threads, then they'd lose popularity more rapidly. - Robin Barooah

I like the FF option of having each individual deal with rude or uncalled for behavior themselves, different people are sensitive about different subjects and at different levels with FF I don't have to depend on anyone else to block someone, its my decision alone - Kim Landwehr

Kim: you can only block people from your own threads though. You will still see them in other people's threads. - Robin Barooah

Just to clarify - I personally like the way the friendfeed system works, but although it's intuitive to use, I think it's not entirely obvious what the consequences of each action is and this reduces the deterrent effect. - Robin Barooah

robin - when you block someone they are gone from all your experiences on friendfeed and you are gone from all theirs... - mike "glemak" dunn

Mike - you're right about that. Kim - I was wrong. - Robin Barooah

That actually increases the strength of the 'microtrolling' effect I described. I.e. the loss in terms of a bad experience through seeing threads in a disjointed way is even greater if you block a very prolific user. - Robin Barooah

robin, i've been on friendfeed for awhile and blocked the obvious trolls/haters from day 1, some of which are as you've stated prolific, so yes you do notice reactions to them in others comments, sort of a ghosting effect but it doesn't create a negative experience for me - i'm glad to have the trolls out of my experience and love friendfeed for providing that functionality... - mike "glemak" dunn

Mike, I'm not talking about people who are consistently trolls and do little else, and I am not criticizing FriendFeed's functionality which I think is state of the art. I am pointing out that being prolific in general, and posting good stuff gives such people more of a license to get away with rudeness in other people's threads when madness strikes, and that there is no mechanism to control this other than their own self-control. i.e. the threat of blocking isn't much of a deterrent. - Robin Barooah

ah got it robin - good point - the prolific folks I follow tend to not be rude at least in my experience - mike "glemak" dunn

wait, so what's keeping spammers and trolls from just opening new friendfeed accounts as they get blocked? - Ned Baugh