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Sean Powell › Likes

Jeremiah Owyang
The Future of the Social Web: In Five Eras - http://www.web-strategist.com/blog...
Interesting stuff...thanks for sharing - Hugo Guzman
Great info! I agree fish where the fish are :) - Peter du Toit (S.Africa)
Agree on the whole. I always find these categories a little artificial: Really "Forrester-speak". :) I think the recommendations are the most interesting. I'd make a separate post out of that. - Meryn Stol
You say it yourself: "What’s interesting isn’t this vision for the future, but what it holds in store for brands, " . I'd like these recommendations to be fleshed out with concrete first steps to take. Doesn't have to be more than links to relevant resources. - Meryn Stol
Meryn The recommendations are fleshed out in the actual reports. Our clients (brands) have access to see them. - Jeremiah Owyang
Hmm ok... Then I'll need to get the details elsewhere I guess. :) - Meryn Stol
There will be a give and take between communities and brands. The thing is, Facebook doesn't have a competitive alternative that users could go to. In my report, we suggest that active communities could define specs for products, and bid MULTIPLE companies to build it. - Jeremiah Owyang
good stuff Jeremiah, enjoyed and some good thought provokers there for the future - Richard Binhammer
Nice paper but really expensive for young people. $750 means $41 for page. - Alp
Great information, understanding the future's potential is more important than ever on the social web. - Maria Reyes-McDavis
Interesting, but very general and hard to apply. I see companies more as å provide of tools/stage for conversation, aka the gold rush mining vs selling tools - Anders Dahlberg
Alp, Many of Forrester's clients are large brands who have a subscription. We're still sharing a great deal on this blog, and have given the report to bloggers to cover, so there's value to be had there. - Jeremiah Owyang
Jeremiah (and the team), a great piece of work and, I imagine, a labour of both love and loathing at times! I have been very interested in this area as I have looked at the shift in skills to deliver social media activity changes from one of basic coding knowledge to much more human, interactive skills. - Paul Fabretti
Fantastic article! I found it SO intriguing that I've even printed it out! - J. D. Ebberly
"How Brands Should Prepare" is a great bit of information. Jeremiah, it would be nice (i'd be reading) if you expanded in future blog posts about the "How Brands Should Prepare". - frank barry
That's likely to be a research report I'm thinking about writing Frank - Jeremiah Owyang
Probably correct in assuming that most online social networks will neither spawn nor solidify to the point of being considered ‘affinity groups’ with the level of cohesion, unified budgetary authority or organized implementation capability of NGOs, churches, or employee aggregations. Even in the era of social commerce. I hope I’m wrong. - A Mitchell
Great post, understanding the future's potential is more important than ever on the social web. - Vladimír Hrouda
Just found this... great stuff! - Gerd Leonhard
Robert Scoble
Hanging with @pearanalytics who owns #1 Trending topic on Twitter found that 40% of Tweets are babble - http://ourdoings.com/roberts...
Hanging with @pearanalytics who owns #1 Trending topic on Twitter  found that 40% of Tweets are babble
Map
He did a study on Twitter behavior http://www.pearanalytics.com - Robert Scoble
He did a study on Twitter behavior http://www.pearanalytics.com - Robert Scoble
I wonder if you wouldn't find similar stats say if you researched the average phone call or casual conversation. Not sure it really is a negative to twitter. More perhaps that it just mimics regular life conversations. Not every conversation is "serious" in nature. Then again what do I know ;-) - josh hinds
Did he tweet that? ;-) - michael silverton
@Josh indeed:) - Keven
Compare that stat to real life 'in person' conversations... probably over 40% of which are pointless! - Pon
good news for me since pointless babble is prety much what I'm about ;) no point in trying to sugar coat obvious - WarLord
Small talk, basically. Some people do it more than others. I don't do much of it; some people are almost all small talk... - Dennis Jernberg
What happens if all of the scoble tweets are removed? =P j/k - RAD Moose
that 40% babble stat is key in corp buy in to social media - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed
+10 Pon. Perhaps that 40% figure demonstrates how FOCUSED and SUCCINCT tweeting makes otherwise 75% bloviating humans adjust behavior, if they hope to be successful with the medium. Success = Heard + Engaged in Conversation. - michael silverton
Dave Winer
How To: Backup And Search All Your Friends' Tweets In Google Reader. http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Dave Winer
"we, the users, need to own a technology company -- and have it work to serve our interests..." http://www.scripting.com/stories...
yes!:) - K.D.
A crowdsourced company. Don't we call that the government? ;) - Sean Powell
Dave... we have been considering this idea for a number of years, but I think that pulling it together requires more than a geek-army or an open-source collaborative ethos. 'Open' is a mind-set, not a movement... and great egalitarian strategies are possibly best not to be collectively authored, or you can find yourself in the middle of a mega-committee. Its a conundrum... But we are happy to share insights. - Simon Edhouse
Dave/Simon: someone will do it. Why not get started now? - Jason Cronkhite
Totally agree... the core idea that Dave is putting forward has been my 24/7 passion since 2006... and maybe Twitter & Friendfeed (RIP) are going to prove to be catalytic forces for this idea. Certainly Dave is a lot more accessible nowdays... ;) - Simon Edhouse
Simon, maybe with Dave's help we can form a community trust and put the thing together. :-) - Jason Cronkhite
Simon it would not be like that. I'll write a follow-up post. - Dave Winer
I would like to understand the financial vehicles to do this. Simon, I also agree that there has to be a structure that allows for users interests to be aligned with business growth for their benefit and the founders. Too often what happens when investors step in for pure financial return is the goal becomes focused on how to turn the company, "the exit", and not on building a sustainable company to enrich lives of the user base. - Jason Cronkhite
well... to quote Robert Burns, "The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray"... Firstly I totally agree with Dave's other post (i.e. "Rex, you're making it too complicated..") where he outlines the structure of the Public Company... no problem there. I have reasoned out the same model some time ago. - I see it like a series of check-boxes that have to be ticked... and probably... more... - Simon Edhouse
Understand & agree for the most part. RE: BIG IDEA, don't know if it really has to be earth moving all the time but rather something that enough users can stand to benefit from both of using the product and financially. Simon, how about publishing your checklist and trying to get a following around the movement? - Jason Cronkhite
The BIG IDEA is crucial... once you see it, you can't stop thinking about it, and that's what is needed to get massive buy-in. - "get a following around a movement" No... I can't drum that up. I am too small a fish, and not living in a VC hotspot. Dave's the man, if he can control his notorious crankiness (we love you Dave)... However, yes, I can add-value, but who am I? Dave has started to pull together this particular cosmic dust cloud. Let's see if he can truly lead it. - Simon Edhouse
The crowdcorp concept is the way to go, now how do we make it happen? It is tough to manage efficiently the requirements of a community - Alberto Saavedra from Nambu
RE: BIG IDEA, maybe so - maybe not...remains to be seen. RE: you're not the one, it takes powers of 2, lots of passion, determination and as Seth Godin would say a Tribe. Sure, Dave may be one to press the issue forward but this notion requires an ARMY. Dave, maybe you can enlist Scoble and the Building43 community to push this effort. - Jason Cronkhite
[edit] ...There are those on the web that are captivated by their own notoriety, as if being involved in social-networks is a popularity contest. - It isn't. If this project idea falls into the hands of the 'lime-light-seekers', who seem to have short attention cycles, it will rapidly go off-course. (that's my own personal view) - Simon Edhouse
Ah, Simon. I understand you but, this is where the Power of 2 comes in so handy (you need both - the Edhouse's & Scoble's). Keeping people on course and captivated require different talents. Maybe Scoble & Winer are perfect balances. Maybe it's others but more importantly, you need all shapes, colors and credes to do something like this and the power of collective intelligence and influence. - Jason Cronkhite
LOL... maybe we need a Jason Cronkhite too - Simon Edhouse
Its a jigsaw puzzle... but, like those super tricky huge jigsaw puzzle's, to complete it, someone needs to have the picture that encapsulates the final vision. - Simon Edhouse
Agreed Simon! I'm willing to help. - Jason Cronkhite
OK... next we need a money person... who gets it. Someone who can resource this... Its not going to go anywhere much till that person steps up. - Simon Edhouse
They are around. I forwarded a pointer to my piece today with a guy I'm working with on another project. - Dave Winer
Cool Dave. Let's keep the conversation going. I would love to see this happen. - Jason Cronkhite
I have detailed Info-memorandum type docs, and have sent overviews to John Nesheim (http://www.nesheimgroup.com/) who has given the core-ideas his thumbs-up, and offered to introduce me to VCs etc... John is a great guy, very smart and accessible. We had a long Skype chat a while ago... he gets it. - Simon Edhouse
Fantastic Simon! Are VC's really what's needed 1st? - Jason Cronkhite
VCs are probably exactly not what's needed as they (generally) are always thinking of their exit, and being risk-averse by nature they tend to look for 'me-too' plays... (projects that have successful precedents in the marketplace) ... No, an Angel Investor is what's needed. But there still has to be a killer Business Model as money people are always in the business of making more... more... - Simon Edhouse
Not to get ahead of ourselves but, even before an Angel don't we just need a passionate following of people (users of products/services they may want to own)? - Jason Cronkhite
It seems to me what is needed is a platform to evangelize the concept, get people behind the cause. Of course, a financial plan as to how users might contribute to show tangible interest would help in gaining validation and traction for larger investor types. - Jason Cronkhite
well... I instinctively take a different view on that. Not to say you are wrong, I am just really aware of the 'politics' of collaboration, the realities of project 'execution', and the realities and importance of I.P. protection for investors, even if it may become a public company (which by the way is a VERY expensive process to go through and carries with it a raft of responsibilites... more... - Simon Edhouse
point well taken simon, agreed. so, let's see if dave wants to help assemble the core group, open discussion, have a meeting of the minds in-person and push things forward. - Jason Cronkhite
Just opened a private group, "User Ventures" and sent you an invite, Simon/Dave. - Jason Cronkhite
"Jason assembled a great group of heroes, known as the Argonauts after their ship, the Argo. The group of heroes included the Boreads (sons of Boreas, the North Wind) who could fly, Heracles, Philoctetes, Peleus, Telamon, Orpheus, Castor and Pollux, Atalanta, and Euphemus." http://bit.ly/9LTx9 - Simon Edhouse
Very Cool! :-) - Jason Cronkhite
Then we all can start IPO's afterwards :) and sell our life-streams to google. - Chirag Chamoli
Simon, Argo User Ventures is assembled as a group awaiting the rest of the Argonauts :-) - Jason Cronkhite
LOL at the irony of opening a private group for this. - Nick Lothian
Nick, do you plan to contribute? - Jason Cronkhite
Nick, I have no qualms of opening up the group after those who plan to contribute help to establish a framework for the group. Foundations must be part of anything new even user centric organizations. So, if being an active contributor to help users suits you the group needs you and any other user advocate for that matter. - Jason Cronkhite
This company crowdsourced their funding: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009... - Ray Cromwell
Another axis to think about is whether a particular idea even needs to be owned by a single entity, public, or otherwise. Chances are, if you're inventing another communication protocol/network to piggy back on the internet/web and ship data around, it isn't always necessary to have a single point of failure. Rather, you're taking a fault-tolerant network protocol (TCP/IP) and layering... more... - Ray Cromwell
Ray, just reached out to Charles Armstrong of Trampoline. - Jason Cronkhite
Interesting points Ray, and yes, the technology idea you outline is in accord with some of the ideas we have been building on... but inventing another open protocol does not necessarily a profitable people's Company make. - and Nick, as regards the irony of a private discussion... Sometimes you have to be smart... and being 'smart' is also about being prudent and careful., - Simon Edhouse
I agree, but some things are commodities/public goods and not really something that should be walled off just to try and extract profits. (Which I'm not against, I just think there are plenty of other things to make profits on than setting up more toll bridges) Would RSS have taken off if a single company owned it and all feeds had to be hosted through their domain? Maybe, but I think we'd all be worse off than the current situation. - Ray Cromwell
Yes... I agree, and this is a very interesting area. - Probably the only way I can get us out of this log-jam is to go deeper and state that I am interested in two key symbiotic projects. One being an open platform, and the other being a separate (and at arms length) vehicle to redefine the way commercial contacts between buyer and seller, or advertiser/vendor and viewer/client are conducted. - Simon Edhouse
Simon: you are a jerk if you think I do this to "seek the limelight." I shared OTHER PEOPLE'S posts here more than 21,000 times. That is called sharing. I travel the world and point my camera at OTHER PEOPLE. Building communities is hard work and the fact that you have started this project by being an asshole does not bode well for its future. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
I went and looked and Simon never even participated here. Two likes. What a jerk. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Mark: I agree, but I won't help a guy who questions my integrity and is a jerk. Maybe if he apologizes. Plus he's already proven he doesn't participate so WTF does he know about building a community? Geesh. - Robert Scoble
If I may... this is a fantastic political opportunity for all of us (bystanders like myself, geeks and users). I can hardly follow half the things you write (although I google most of it), but I watch the process as an experiment on "Open" Democracy through Open Source. My best wishes on its success no matter who partakes. If there is anything a civilian can contribute, please don't hesitate to ... well poke. :-)) - constantinos alexacos
No, the IPO comes first, before anything else. - Dave Winer
Read up on public shell companies. http://www.google.com/search... - Dave Winer
Just to add my two cents: I am a relative small fry here in this big community and have been fortunate enough to have participated in interesting discussions with both Scoble and Dave. Both have found the time (at least to some degree) to engage with me and I have since wondered how they do it (or at least how much time it takes). - Sean Powell
(Part 2) It seems based on these comments that something like this will need EVERYONE to actually be successful. With the advent of these technologies - friendfeed and (dare I say it) twitter - we now how the ability to truly get everyone involved and weigh in on decisions. That is the key here. Then we can help settle questions like: "Who decides where we go? What we do? Who's involved?" That last question should not even be considered. imho - Sean Powell
Gee, calling people "jerks" and "assholes" is just too easy in this kind of forum isn't it? But you know Robert, I did not say that you had no integrity. What I was saying was that, if something like this were to develop in an integral fashion, as in [def:] "...necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental", then its not about obtaining mass publicity first off... which... more... - Simon Edhouse
Simon, you wrote, and I quote "Pleeeeeese.... not Scoble. - Its gonna take buckets of wisdom, and patience and dare I say it, integrity." - Robert Scoble
Dave, the idea of: "...the IPO comes first" baffles me. - IPOs are very expensive, and would only seem to raise the level of risk. - What is the reason that you take that position? - I think great companies are built on great ideas, and without the solid foundation of a 'great idea', I (and other's) would sense that its an ideologically driven foray... Foundations are important. - Simon Edhouse
That, to, me, says you were saying that I didn't have any integrity. - Robert Scoble
Simon: but your last statement is better. I still think your first statement was pretty damn rude, though, and when someone calls you on your rudeness, your first answer should be "I'm sorry." - Robert Scoble
That's what my community website network is all about. See http://Frederick.com for an example. The site is owned by the community. - Craig Shipp
IPO? The IPO market doors have been shut for sometime. Thanks for the chuckle. - cheapsuits
yep... I'm sorry if that offended you, really. Loose words... I don't know you, and you don't know me. Over a coffee, we would probably have a chuckle and find quite a bit of common ground. Please accept my apology. It was an off the cuff remark, poorly executed. - Simon Edhouse
Robert... gee I should have looked at your pic before insulting you! - Lucky I'm on the other side of the planet. ;) (I'm an Aussie, from English stock... fairly reserved, and nowhere near the buzzy west coast of the US. - so on quite a different frequency) - Simon Edhouse
Apology accepted, now we can move on. Thanks! - Robert Scoble
Ok... The trigger for this discussion was Dave's clarion call: ""we, the users, need to own a technology company -- and have it work to serve our interests..." ~ Its a meme that obviously resonates with many. There's been a shift to user-control, and libertarianism rolling forward for years on the web... and the implied friction-point (which is very real) is the tension between the Web... more... - Simon Edhouse
agreed. - Thomas Hawk
Simon / Robert: Glad you guys made up :-) ... Simon, I am interested in your points of view and think there is a lot of merit to the visioning process with great leadership. I think Robert is one of the best evangelists for technology there is and letting the Scobleizer do what he does best has a time and place and I think Robert knows this and I'm sure he can move forward once there is... more... - Jason Cronkhite
Forgive me if I don't understand, but isn't the purpose of a company to make profits? Why not create a foundation akin to Mozilla or Apache instead? The closest service-oriented foundations I can think of are Wikipedia and Archive.org. It becomes interesting to me if we're talking about a services-oriented organization that provides end-user services built on top of existing and future... more... - Ankush Narula from iPhone
Ankush, I think the differentiation is that users contribution to these companies are not being rewarded. Why can the users as well as founders not be rewarded when they are essentially building the value of the company together. Companies cannot become valuable without customers so, they need each other and if users/customer bring up the valuation of the company why not have the... more... - Jason Cronkhite
But what's the end goal? Rewards or integrity? You have to find a balance in any for-profit venture. However, non-profits are driven largely by vision and integrity (ideally speaking). So let me ask some more questions. If you're laying down your money as a user+investor, won't your interests change from time to time? If you actually take a company like this public who controls the... more... - Ankush Narula
Brian... Wikipedia is a pretty good example of a company that operates for its users and is almost totally dependent on its users. However, it has no real business model, but retains a hugely valid place in most of our lives. - There is however an answer to the current dilemma/stalemate that folks here have been yearning for, and it is perfect and simple. In a nut-shell I would call it:... more... - Simon Edhouse
...and now its 4.00am down under, and I have to hit the sack... G'night fellow travellers. - Simon Edhouse
Simon... if we're talking alternatives to client-server the only one that I can think of is true distributed peer-to-peer. So perhaps a collective of such companies working together under an umbrella would be very effective since we would see many various incarnations of user+investor style companies. Interesting... - Ankush Narula
My only concern there, and its a well researched concern, is about secuity of the core protocol. there's a huge amount that can be 'open' on top, but the base transport protocol, sitting on TCP/IP needs to be super-tight, and solid. best kept as a trade secret, inside an ultimately publicy owned Company, that has rules to prevent corporations ever owning more than 10% of the stock. If... more... - Simon Edhouse
Update, I contacted Charles Armstrong, CEO of Trampoline last night and he's interested to join and learn more about this. He may be popping in soon. - Jason Cronkhite
Simon... Check out this presentation on wuala's architecture if/when you have time: http://www.wuala.com/en... - Ankush Narula
Dave ---- If I may comment about your original post sorry!), I found the post pretty inspiring. I advise on social media for an agency (no flames, please) and one of the things I talk about is "sensible" and "realistic" ROI. What I mean is very clear: we're not going to use bullshit metrics like "awareness" or "impressions" to measure whether or not our work had an effect on the brand.... more... - Michael E. Rubin
Ankush... had a quick look, but immediately I see a big discord with what I've been thinking/planning. i.e. "You can upload any file of any size"... that is a continuation of the situation that has got P2P systems into so much trouble, and stigmatized the technolgy. Its great in one sense, but it invites Piracy, copyright theft etc etc. P2P is THE logical system for the internet, (its... more... - Simon Edhouse
Public shell looks like a good alternative, is it too early to bring VRM ideas to the promised land scenario? - Alberto Saavedra
gee, don't get me started on VRM... nice philosophy, but very naive. (uh oh, 4.24am... damn) Bye... - Simon Edhouse
The users owning it - it's the Open Source model! - Marcos Marado from fftogo
We touched on 'GOOG' & 'Business Models' yesterday... my observation about the prevailing status quo paradigm for web-advertising is summarised here: http://friendfeed.com/simoned... - Simon Edhouse
hmmm... ok, if the concept of "Web Advertising" elicits such a nonplussed reaction, reflect on this: Contacts between vendor and buyer, and the drawing of these two parties together via promotion or request, is the basic process that 'Advertising' tries to achieve. However, as Danah Boyd highlighted in her December 2007 blog piece, (Who clicks on ads? And what might this mean?),... more... - Simon Edhouse
exactly - sofarsoShawn
Dave Winer
Learn how to follow Twitter users in Google Reader. http://www.scripting.com/stories...
I started sending some of my favorite Twitter posters' feeds to Google Reader a while back so I would be able to search back more than the 30 days Twitter search allows. This article brings things to another level. Thanks for sharing. - Brenda Young
Thank you, Dave. This is the tool I've been waiting for so that I can complete my move to FriendFeed and use RSS for Twitter interaction. - Sam Harrelson from IM
Davie-Excellent find! - Jack Wilson, K4SAC
Coooooool :) - Susan Beebe
Nick yes you do have to re-import. However if Google Reader would support dynamic reading lists, we could work out a way to keep them in synch. Wouldn't that be nice. :-) - Dave Winer
Now that would be nice! - Susan Beebe
Dave - the comment on Twitter couldn't be more true - I wonder how the social networking world will react to this ... and if some decentralization might start because of it. Seems like a melding of email, RSS, twitter, facebook, etc is what might come out in the end - gregory leff
awesome - andy brudtkuhl
It will be EXACTLY like that scene in the Matrix where they are watching the code scroll by like rain. All feed converge to one, and we see them all simultaneously. Or not. - Ian Wright from BuddyFeed
@Dave yes, it would be nice :) We'll keep you posted. - Mihai Parparita
Is this working? I'm getting an error... "Twitter returned an empty result." - Jason Hansen
Twitter isn't doing well today. - Dave Winer
Dave: I figured it was due to that, but just wanted confirmation. Will try it out later. - Jason Hansen
I use this adaptation and like it so much I stopped using all my other Twitter apps. - earl wallace
Richard MacManus
How To: Backup And Search All Your Friends' Tweets In Google Reader http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Jeremiah Owyang
Had a nice 2.5 hour convo with @guykawsaki. He's refreshingly honest and open about being a business man (which means he's looking for the business opportunity). He told me he doesn't get Friendfeed, writes his own books and blogs, and only uses Ghosts for tweets. He showed me how he uses objectivemarketer.com to "Blast" out tweets to alltop.
We exchange advice, I gave him some advice on what I'd like to see from Alltop (more filtering) and he gave me some career advice, which I'm certainly taking to heart. - Jeremiah Owyang
We also discussed different companies, trends, and how the industry is changing. The he ran off to hockey practice. - Jeremiah Owyang
Very interesting in Objectivemarketer, not so much in "blasting" tweets, but scheduling them and tracking them, yes! - Kami@SeaWorldSA
Only 2.5 hours? - Peter Mullen
I see how he gets himself out there, but how does he listen? It seems like you'd miss all the opportunities by not listening to what people say on the web. I'm sure he has some methods, e.g. employees as filters. - Michelle
Thank you JO for tweeting the summary of your chat with Guy, thus role modeling a collective intelligence practice worth replicating: connecting our conversations by linking 1-on-1 chats into the tweetstream. - George Por
Guy is really cool :) Great to hear that you both are talking /sharing (2 bright minds I respect a bunch) - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed
Guy is cool like that (as are you, Jeremiah) - Jesse Stay
Michelle; I think he uses a person to ghost his tweets, her name is escaping me at the moment. - Kami@SeaWorldSA
Neenz is one of the ghosts, there a hanfdul - Jeremiah Owyang
I stopped listening or paying attention to anything Kawasaki a while ago. He is a symbol of an era whose time has passed I think. No fresh ideas there. - Brian Sullivan
Guy should get FF he hasn't left time to surf in his life he loves field sales too much know the feeling - Thomas Power
Beth Kanter
Craigslist Nonprofit Bootcamp: Podcast and Videos Available - http://beth.typepad.com/beths_b...
Jay Rosen
CEO of NPR is clear: they won't go paywall. She calls it a "mass delusion" in the news industry http://www.newsweek.com/id... (via @acarvin)
The new NPR site is really well done. Good interview w/ Schiller as well. - Ken Kennedy
When paywalls go up, the ones left standing will be orgs like NPR. Smart move on their part. - Matt M (inactive)
It really amazes me that the newspaper industry has so buried it's head in the sand and learned nothing from the other media outlets (chiefly the recording industry). It's really kind of sad that the entire industry really can't think, and find ways to innovate in the current realities of news. To me, it simply proves that the current news organizations will in fact die. Newspapers have... more... - Chad Albert
Some great quotes from the article, too: 'Frankly, if all the news organizations locked pinkies, and said we're all going to put up a big fat pay wall, you know what, more traffic for us.' -- Love it. - Ken Kennedy
A remarkably blunt statement, all the more so since she is a former NY Times digital executive. - Jay Rosen
Recall for back story the editor of the Financial Times claiming almost all serious news organizations will go with a pay model. We discussed it: http://ff.im/5jmCo - Jay Rosen
Two questions, which always occur to me when New Media critics roll their eyes and mock news publishers for wanting paywalls: 1). If not some form of subscriptions, what will work? (And the answer, unless you are a genuine "gravedancer" cannot be a variation of Clay Shirky's now-famous formulation:"Nothing will work." I'm looking for real, helpful suggestions.) 2. The alternative to... more... - Jason Pontin
"As senior vice president and general manager of the NYTimes.com, Vivian Schiller presided over one of the industry's best-read Web sites..." Her words:."I am a staunch believer that people will not in large numbers pay for news content online. It's almost like there's mass delusion going on in the industry—They're saying we really really need it, that we didn't put up a pay wall 15... more... - Jay Rosen
NPR has subscription revenue AND $200+ million courtesy of Joan Kroc. Who needs a paywall when you have a moat of cash like that? - Alan Mairson
I don't get it. IF Vivian Schiller is correct, IF it's a delusion, IF "people will not in large numbers pay for news content online," how does the $200 million Joan Kroc gave to NPR alter that equation for the news organizations planning to charge? She may be wrong in her interpretation of history, her predictions about user behavior may be off, but I don't see what the $8 million to $10 million in income from the endowment has to do with the situation for the news companies she's referencing. - Jay Rosen
Agreed, Jay. Schiller estimates in that very article that the endowment (currently about $258M according to Wikipedia) would need to be $8 _billion_ to fully support "the operating budget of a large national-international news organization". 3.5% of that total in the bank is fantastic, but it doesn't make NPR magically immune to financial considerations. - Ken Kennedy
Annual newsroom budget for the NYTimes is about $200 million. - Jay Rosen
... My point: NPR has a business model that doesn't require a paywall—and that business model includes more Joan Krocs. The Washington Post & countless other papers don't have that option. - Alan Mairson
Okay, they don't have that option because no one gave them a $200 million endowment. Message received. I heard you the first, second and third times you made this point, Alan. Full stop. And how does that point bear on the question of whether users will pay for online news? I must be really thick because I STILL don't get it. - Jay Rosen
Well, Jay, I guess you didn't hear the other part of my message, which I've also repeated multiple times: paywalls are a "delusion"; paywalls are a "mass delusion." People won't pay for (most) content. Vivian Schiller is right. We agree with each other. Full stop. Everything okay thus far? .... Good. Now here's the second point: Listening to Vivian Schiller dismiss paywalls is like... more... - Alan Mairson
No, I'm sorry, it isn't. You must be referencing other listeners who, you are speculating, will not be convinced by her arguments because NPR has an endowment, so it's "easy for her to say." So who will they be convinced by? Bloggers with no skin in the game? http://tr.im/u7Ta Steve Yelvington? (career newspaper man) http://www.yelvington.com/node... Jeff Jarvis, who is now seen as an... more... - Jay Rosen
Who is the right messenger? The *current* VP for nytimes.com or the publisher of the Washington Post—because Vivian Schiller, like the bloggers you reference, no longer has any skin in the paywall game. She escaped a horrible situation at the Times—a great career move for her. But she's like the poor girl who marries rich—and then bad mouths all her old friends back home in the projects... more... - Alan Mairson
Absolutely: one's position and investment in the media system should affect how we read and interpret that person. Anyone who says Clay Shirky knows nothing about the media business is behaving like a clown, yes. By your own testimony the statement isn't true. "Can you believe that everyone isn't doing what Google is doing" doesn't describe anything I have said. Nor have I said that... more... - Jay Rosen
Thanks, Jay. - Alan Mairson
Also, http://twitter.com/jayrose... ... "I am myself STRONGLY in favor of having pro journalists who get paid to do great work full time, and I consider them essential to the nation." - Jay Rosen
Alan, I hear your point...but saying "Who is the right messenger? The *current* VP for nytimes.com or the publisher of the Washington Post" --- when that happens, they debate is over. That's like saying that until the opposing viewpoint agrees with me, my argument isn't valid. - Ken Kennedy
In addition, I think the comparison of Schiller to a poor girl who married rich is a bit disingenuous. It's a valid decision to vote with your feet. If her analysis of the situation was that that the NYT wasn't moving from its delusional decision (that charging for commodity news is a good idea), and NPR seemed like a better fit and a more enlightened place to work...calling her a gold-digger is pretty unfair. - Ken Kennedy
aside from the debate over who should be taken as credible in the discussion, isn't much of the newspaper's problem generating subscribers a result of sheer overcapacity? I counted the number of 'original' stories in my local paper this morning: 27% by number. Even less by column inch. If 73% of the news in a paper is syndicated, why would anyone pay for it multiple times and in an... more... - jeff hammond
@jason_pontin, the solution re:news media "pay wall" is here: http://businessmindhacks.com/post... - Alex Schleber
Ken - If Katherine Weymouth says "paywalls are nuts," then the debate would be over ***at the Washington Post***. But it wouldn't end the industry-wide debate. Everyone would wait & see if the WaPo could make it work. See: TimesSelect. ... And yes, of course it's valid to vote with your feet. But sitting at the New York Times and saying "paywalls are delusional" is a negation, not a... more... - Alan Mairson
P.S. (I wrote this in a comment last night, but I accidently deleted it) As Jay knows, I was, until recently, a writer & editor for National Geographic magazine, the official journal of the National Geographic Society. When Joan Kroc dropped $200 million on NPR, you could hear the Society's foundation & grants people groan: "Why not us??" I think it's because National Geographic's... more... - Alan Mairson
I saw the comment last night, Alan. I'm not disputing your industry chops. *grin* - Ken Kennedy
@Alan: wrt your comment, "And to call NPR "enlightened" is to suggest that the NYTimes is not." -- I didn't say that...I [edit] said that, to Schiller, NPR (might) "[seem like] a better fit and a more enlightened place to work". WRT this situation (news as commodity), I'd stand by (ie, agree with) that statement, based on what I know. Also, my point there was that your gold-digger comment was harsh, not that the NYT was a bad, evil place. - Ken Kennedy
@Ken: FYI - I wasn't trying to establish my "chops" - just wanted to share a story that highlights the problem most newspapers & magazines will have emulating the NPR model. (If anyone could come close, it would be a non-profit like National Geographic. But, as I mentioned, I think Rupert & Co put the kabosh on that strategy. I hope I'm wrong, but NGS has been doing the foundation &... more... - Alan Mairson
Wow. 49 likes. Definitely an outlier in the "likes" department. Wonder why. :-) - Jay Rosen
Liking is a lot easier than paying! - Jim Norris
Coming in late, but... the NYT could only get 225K online subscribers during the paywall era to cough up $50 each. To me, that suggests that even if people haven't yet thought of any good, non-advertiser alternatives to paywalls, paywalls themselves won't work. - Andrew C (✔)
If I understand Jay's argument, we are in agreement, for once. (I put aside his reflexive and unhelpful personal invective - "clown," etc. - as a feature of his prose style.) I don't get Vivian Schiller's point, either. People *are* paying for NPR's content - in the form of small donations by the millions of dollars, in large endowments like Joan Kroc's, and in some (dwindling)... more... - Jason Pontin
OTOH, Cook's Illustrated has 260K subscribers to their online site ( http://www.37signals.com/svn... ), but then again that's a very different business in all sorts of ways... - Andrew C (✔)
original article is a great read. - Chieze Okoye
@Alan...no worries! I did actually, first pass, misunderstand your NatGeo point. I hear what you're saying there. Also glad we've connected...you're posting some interesting stuff. @Andrew...the Cook's Illustrated comparison IS relevant, IMO, b/c as you note, they're different. The value that people are paying for is about as far from "news [or food, in this instance] as commodity" as... more... - Ken Kennedy
Too bad NPR is so obviously biased. Nothing says "tax revolt" like our tax dollars supporting liberal propaganda. >.> - David C. Cooper
Jarvis with a word on this article http://www.buzzmachine.com/2009... - Jay Rosen
Robert Scoble
@ivey My6sense sure looks awesome on first try. I need a couple of weeks with it to really know for sure.
Brian: at http://my6sense.com it says coming soon. I'm not sure what 'soon' means but hopefully fast enough :) - wiredgnome
Hello from my first iPod I mean phone !! - Mark from iPhone
The site says the web enabled version is available now but it doesn't seem like it. Directions say (with your iphone) go to www.m6s.com. Hmmm... - Sean Powell
Beth Kanter
Craigslist bootcamp - David La Piana did a cool video project on nonprofits of the future (I'm interivewied) http://www.youtube.com/user...
Beth Kanter said it best: "Nonprofits will want to move from transactional relationships more intimate relationships with supporters so they will turn around and bring others in." - A.M. McReynolds
Jay Rosen
See this? <meta name="googlebot" content="noindex"> Problem solved! Explanation: http://googlepolicyeurope.blogspot.com/2009...
But they wont because they desire 'victim status' and the rewards that that will bring - Mel Buckpitt
Dave Winer
Chris Anderson's "Free" has a very attractive Kindle price. $0.00. :-) http://www.amazon.com/Free-eb...
It's also free at the iTunes Store. - Joe Bonner from fftogo
I once asked at a take away restaurant how much the packets of tomato sauce were and the man said "free" so I took the entire box! - Mark
Downloaded my copy to iPhone. - Noah Gray
Robert Scoble
My God, Scoble, Did You Think We Wouldn’t See These? - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
"News: you WISH!" - Robert Scoble
You know, what with the big microsoft event, it's been an unusually quiet day for news today - Mark
So, Scoble, who's the guy kissing you? - Djordje Lukic
He is identified in comments over on tech crunch. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Chris Messina
Congrelate.com lets you view, sort, filter and share information about members of Congress. http://www.sunlightlabs.com/blog... (Via @cjoh + @EllnMllr)
Robert Scoble
Rackspace competitor ServInt on Rackspace: http://blog.servint.net/2009... Wow.
Yeah wow. What an incredibly classy article. - Chris Foley
Yeah, every Rackspace employee I've talked with around the world today feels punched in the gut because of the downtime we've had. Not a good two weeks. - Robert Scoble
It's an amazing group of people working here, though, and watching them go through a tough time makes me realize just how good they are. - Robert Scoble
I"m sure. Nothing you can do but move on. - Mike White
It puts in focus how one should run a business. I am also a Rackspace customer. - Sean Powell
No, and I'm sure that's a terrible situation for both Rackspace and their customers, resellers, et al. One point made well by Reed Caldwell in that ServInt article is that any negativity-based sales pitch/promos are inconsistent with keeping the customers' best interests in mind. This goes double for political campaigns. - Chris Foley
Mike and Sean: yup, it's a real time for us to look in the mirror and question everything we're doing. I'd hate to be the team running the datacenter because so many people's businesses and careers are on their shoulders. Real responsibility isn't easy to bear. - Robert Scoble
Chris: I know I'll never even consider doing such a campaign in the future and if ServInt ever has troubles I'll be the first one on the phone offering help. - Robert Scoble
Robert, that's pretty brutal, but what can you do? Keep your nose down and keep moving forward. If I remember correctly it was caused by a fire, no? It's not your fault. - Mike White
Mike: nah, the fire was in one of our competitors (we weren't the only one with downtime the past two weeks) but our two incidents were power related. - Robert Scoble
Incidentally, if it makes you feel any better Robert, I've learned a lot from your feed, comments, and likes here on FriendFeed. You've been instrumental in my web tech awareness. Peanuts, i know. But I appreciate you. - Mike White
Robert - as much as these outages hurt us, we know what it means to our customers (many of whom have become our friends). It is painful. But we getter better by experiencing it, and working through it. It gives us an even greater sense of urgency to not let it happen again. People don't work at Rackspace - they make it an avocation! :) We will continue to get better, and will always put customers before Rackers, and Rackers before selves. THAT is what makes us a great company. - Rob La Gesse
Very classy and good use of social media. - Jeff Haynie
Big thumbs up for ServInt for writing that piece. I'm sure many others tried to kick you while you were down. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Thanks for the kind words everyone. It's nice to see camaraderie in our industry! - ServInt
Danielle Brigida
GreenSmith Consulting: 10 Ways to Change the World Through Social Media - http://www.greensmithconsulting.com/greensm...
GreenSmith Consulting: 10 Ways to Change the World Through Social Media
Robert Scoble
I am tracking people on Twitter's SUL like @timoreilly. They can't get people to follow them on Facebook or FriendFeed. Here's analysis:
Tim has 617,000 followers on Twitter -- almost all gained because he is on the suggested user list. But he only has 10,000 followers on FriendFeed. TechCrunch has almost the same pattern. Why is this? - Robert Scoble
They can't get people to follow them because the people who added them are not really listening and impressionable. - Louis Gray
You have to be engaged and interactive to have influence. - Louis Gray
It's what I was hinting at this morning. Most of the users on Twitter don't actually take action or DO anything. They aren't followers. They aren't listening. They aren't engaged. So these audiences can't be transfered anywhere else. - Robert Scoble
Twitter is Revolution! Yay Twitter! - Steven E. Streight
This is Twitter's true lock in. - Robert Scoble
Could it also be that they never talk about Friendfeed or Facebook while on Twitter and therefore no one knows that they're actually here? - Kenton
Yeah, Twitter has turned into more micro-rss for me versus conversational. - Tony
Why would any freedom loving person NOT have a green avatar? - Steven E. Streight
617,000, but how many of those are active users? I'd imagine 50% or more are one time users, dead accounts - sean percival
It's all about narcissism for most people unfortunately. - Steven E. Streight
It's impossible for anybody to have 617,000 followers on Friendfeed, because that's about double the active network size. ;) - Shéa Bennett
Shea: very funny! - Robert Scoble
Kenton, That's it for me. I follow Tim on Twitter, actually find him very engaged there, but didn't automatically assume he was on FB and FF. Now I will - Francine Hardaway
I hate FaceBook - Steven E. Streight
also the chance of someone responding on a sul is higher on friendfeed that is on twitter - Kashif Khan
Shea: the problem with your thesis is that it holds true on Facebook. I have more fans there than TechCrunch does. - Robert Scoble
Also, if you only ever re-tweet instead of putting up original content your followers are going to tend to be more passive. - Kenton
how about them dopey Positive Affirmation tweeters? Ugh! - Steven E. Streight
If I want inspirational quotes, I'll open a Bible thank you. - Steven E. Streight
Kenton: that's true too, but TechCrunch puts up original content and he has fewer followers on Facebook than I do (and I post almost NOTHING on Facebook). - Robert Scoble
This is the very basic definition of following, you don't act, you follow. If you want to engage people, you need a community, which twitter can help you to manage but won't do for you. @loic can make many people do something, he has influence, because he built a community, not because he has followers. - Jonathan Belgourari
Jonathan: yup and Guy Kawasaki has a lot more influence than I do and he neither is on Twitter's SUL and he doesn't even write all his own Tweets (he admits he has a team writing them). - Robert Scoble
if you have a lot of followers interaction is very limited. You miss out on so much when you hit the refresh page when you have followers . Im guessing after many attempts of trying to communicate and not receiving anything back ppl quit - Kashif Khan
Jonathan: I call that a "reader" or a "consumer" then, not a follower. Followers do what you ask them to do. :-) - Robert Scoble
Went and looked for him on FB. Not even a photo? Does he hang out there? - Francine Hardaway
on a much smaller scale I've looked at overlaps between my twitter (3000) fb (900) ff (800); there seems to be about 300 people who are common to all three, the rest choose where and how to interact with me. I tend to think of the 300 as my "digital dunbar number". - JP Rangaswami
Kashif: I interact here with almost everyone and I have 42,000 followers here. - Robert Scoble
good point Robert, I don't really consider Facebook a place to go for information like that so I had only really considered Friendfeed. - Kenton
Twitter is a different medium to the others, Robert. It's a lot less of a commitment to follow somebody on that network. FF has a relatively tiny user base so a comparison there is apples and oranges. Facebook for the majority is still less about following *anybody* and more about following people you know and trust. Why? Because you're giving away a lot of yourself each time you add... more... - Shéa Bennett
Alex: heheh. I'm not the only insane one. - Robert Scoble
but where is interacting easier , twitter or friendfeed ? - Kashif Khan
Shea: the truth about Twitter is that many people check it out for a few minutes and then never return to the service. Or if they do return, they do so very sporadically. Over here or on Facebook the audiences are much more engaged. - Robert Scoble
imagine having to track this same conversation using twitters web interface and not having tweetdeck or seismic to help you out - Kashif Khan
Robert: I keep hearing that but I'm very engaged with my network. And I regularly remove the people who I feel don't make any kind of an effort. It's all about keeping things relative. - Shéa Bennett
Shea: the other truth about the Suggested User List is these are not organic followers. They are people who opened an account and clicked "add all the suggested users." Before Tim and Mashable and TechCrunch were added to that list I had more followers on Twitter. So did Leo Laporte. So did Guy Kawasaki. So, most of those newer followers that Tim and Mike got by being on the SUL aren't strong followers. That's why they aren't very engaged. - Robert Scoble
I agree re: Twitter - they check it out and then leave - the follow and forget methodology. I guess the real measure of how interactive his followers are would be to request that they do something (click a link, etc.) In reality, if he got 1/10 of 1% to do anything, I'd be impressed. - Jeff Pomeroy
You also have to remember that the majority of FB's 200 million users are non-techy people, many of whom see FB *as* the internet, not just a product of it. I think Twitter's audience is maturer (in terms of average age, as well as content) and less interesting in bells and whistles (videos, music etc). - Shéa Bennett
Jeff: what got Twitter to be so cool is engagedment USED to be a lot higher than 1/10th of 1% for everyone. Now it has gone down. - Robert Scoble
I have no disagreement at all about the SUL. I've written several articles about it on Twittercism. It needs to be scrapped or totally revamped. And yeah, a lot of the followers folk get from being on the SUL are very casual users, assuming they return at all. - Shéa Bennett
Shea: I totally disagree with that thesis. I did a survey of 600 Web innovators, influencers, and press. About 85% are on all three social networks (Twitter, Friendfeed, Facebook). And many of those are participating more on Facebook than on Twitter lately. Why is that? - Robert Scoble
Alex: I blocked spymaster. :-) - Robert Scoble
Maybe they are participating on Facebook more because they can truly control who sees what when they have their discussions. Twitter allows a lot of 'noise' to occur from unknown followers when these people are trying to communicate amongst themselves. Maybe Facebook or Friendfeed is just the better medium for those types of interactions. - Jeff Pomeroy
Robert: Which thesis? Blasted Friendfeed and its lack of threaded comments. ;) - Shéa Bennett
even on FB its easier to track conversations - Kashif Khan
As for why your list are involved more on FB than Twitter, I have no idea. But 600 from either network is still a very small sample. I'm confused how these folk are actually "participating" on FB, too. Specifically, what does that word mean on that network? What do they do? My experience is that over half of my followers go ballistic if I update my status on FB more than about 15-20 times per day. And I'm *very* selective to make sure it's only the good stuff. :) - Shéa Bennett
It is personality vs brand. You Robert, Jason Calacanis, Leo Lapporte, are personalities before brand. We talk to you as real people. O'riley is brand before personality. We are not used to talking back to a brand unless we're miffed about something. It is just not normal. For instance today when you asked my question at the #hpreveal thing it cought them off guard and totally blew me... more... - Ron Hudson
Ron: good point. The real answer is that Twitter totally messed with the system by choosing its own "stars" instead of letting the real stars organically bubble up to the top. Since O'Reilly and Arrington are "chosen stars" their followers aren't strong followers like the ones that they got organically. Even Arrington admits this in analysis. - Robert Scoble
I totally agree with Ron about that. That's what I love about FF and Twitter - it's the first time that we've had anything like a level playing field for discourse. And the ones who don't engage now stand out like sore thumbs. - Shéa Bennett
I always love it when somebody has 40,000 followers but is following 40 people. What a waste. Why even engage? You, Robert have almost as many followers as followees. - Curt Mercadante
for me it seems that given his lopsided ratio, it gives the impression that he is not truly interactive but rather broadcasting and waiting for feedback. - Eran Even-Kesef
An engaged audience is built slowly, not quickly - Jesse Stay
So now when a new user gets on Twitter they see the same reinforced message from everywhere else. "These are people/brands you should LISTEN to" It is not "These are people to get to know and have conversation with" - Ron Hudson
Robert, wouldn't the organic SUL just be the top 100 most-followed? Which even before the SUL got going wasn't exactly a bastion of quality. All Twitter needs to do is mix things up - when I sign up (or check the SUL at any time), the service should give me X of its own recommendations, and the same amount that are tailored to me by my own interests. Of course, for this to really work... more... - Shéa Bennett
Curt: lots of people use these things for broadcasting. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do prefer to follow people who engage. - Robert Scoble
Hey Louis Gray are you anti-SUL like many of us in this thread? - Mark
I followed @timoreilly for a while on twitter, but didn't find him interesting enough to keep following. It's true that @GuyKawasaki doesn't write all his own tweets, but I like them and look forward to them (if one of his ladies have written the tweet they will have their initials at the end of it.) I follow you, Robert, because I like your tweets too. I will follow anyone who follows... more... - Andrew Jordan
Shea: I can see about 100 ways to build a useful SUL. The current SUL just serves @ev and @biz 's own egos and purposes. - Robert Scoble
Mark: just remember that Twitter has signaled to the world that anyone who begs to be on, or complains about the SUL will never get onto it. - Robert Scoble
Robert: I agree. Between us, if they added you overnight, would you ask to be removed? I suspect you would, and I know at least one other has. - Shéa Bennett
Robert: Why do you think you are not on the Twitter SUL? iJustine was on it (til she was removed) - yet no Scobleizer - It makes zero sense. - Jim Connolly
Shea: yes, I will ask to be removed. I know one person who removed himself too. (Jay Rosen, journalism professor). Why would I ask to be removed? Because it's a huge gift and one that I would feel I need to disclose every time I talk about Twitter. Look at how many times I'm asked whether I'm paid by FriendFeed. Well, everyone on the Suggested User List is being paid by Twitter. - Robert Scoble
This feels like irc without the useful tools like tab-auto-complete. I keep wanting to ssh out and open irssi. . . - Ron Hudson
Aw man, I miss IRC. - Jason Nunnelley
There's a group of people I follow on twitter not to be part of their conversation but to inform conversations I have with people I know. My friends/acquaintances don't use friendfeed so I have little use for it. Facebook I leave for friends/family and twitter/web forums are for acquaintances. - Jonathan
Jim: three reasons I have never been on Twitter's Suggested User List: 1. Technically I was difficult to put on the list before they got rid of the @ reply functionality (I was one of the 3% who turned that feature on). 2. I talk about FriendFeed all the time (I wouldn't add someone who talked about a competitor all the time to my service either). 3. I have had days when I'm too noisy... more... - Robert Scoble
Does anyone know or have links to comments made by people on the SUL about the issue? - Mark
Robert: Thats a very honest and almost certainly accurate answer. - Jim Connolly
Mark: I've had some contact with @adventuregirl. - Shéa Bennett
There is a risk here of course regarding complaining about the SUL that one could easily be accused of sour grapes; that is, along the lines of, "How did THEY get on there, and not me?" Although I also suspect that the majority (the masses, if you will) on Twitter don't really care at all about things like the SUL, and are fairly blasé to the criticisms about it. I sincerely believe... more... - Shéa Bennett
Mark: honestly I've been following the SUL and other than when Veronica ripped me a new one for asking whether there was some sort of corruption to get on the list (big brands get on the list, for instance, and this list is totally corruptible because it is NOT a meritocracy) I can't remember ever hearing someone on the SUL discussing it in public. They know better because they are being gifted hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of followers and they don't want to be removed. - Robert Scoble
Mark: It's REALLY hard getting answers from people like Veronica Belmont or Pete Cashmore. They are both really cool people, but neither have replied to anything I have asked them, in relation to their SUL places. It's like they have been gagged. - Jim Connolly
Shea: most people will not care, that's right, until they figure out they are peasants in a royalty system. Then they will seek out systems that are meritocracies. The tide is already moving. - Robert Scoble
Robert: To your earlier point re: Tim O'Reilly - if the SUL system is broken and really just a method whereby new twitter users follow & forget, are these people truly "being gifted hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of followers"? - Jeff Pomeroy
I'm sure most of them don't wanna look a gift horse in the mouth. Is that the right metaphor? hehe - Mark
Hmm, I'm not sure Robert. Nobody seemed to leave FB when they were at risk of being sold out - the numbers just went up and up. I think the people who truly fight for this stuff are always in a real minority - they seem more prevalent because they're loud! :) I think most people drift away from social networks when they seem to have run their course, like MySpace. - Shéa Bennett
Jeff: yes, they are because they are now owning the top of lists at http://www.wefollow.com and other places. Also they are getting PR on TV shows worth many thousands of dollars (journalists love picking sources with huge numbers after their names). Finally: SOME of these followers DO engage. - Robert Scoble
Maybe Tim is too focused? he is not a chit chat BS guy enough to interest large amounts of people... Focus gives value but value that is high and very specific to certain (few) people. As you hinted Robert, value is not a matter of # of followers but of real impact /traction. People will listen and act more upon what is said on FF. FF is more value than traffic. - Harscoat
Maybe if a few dozen of us from this thread @reply the big players asking for a statement on their placw on SUL they will respond? - Mark
Scoble: I'm not sure they/we will seek out meritocracies. Like I said before it is not expected. I can go to crackberry forums or IRC if I want to be respected in a niche I think Facebook is more likely to draw people who want to be heard by their peers, because generally it is people you already have an established hierarchy of popularity with. It's high-school all over again. We tend to hang with our group and don't expect to be heard in others. - Ron Hudson
Don't get me wrong - folk will put their name on lists, and that kind of non-committal stuff. But when it comes to the crunch and, you know, actually quitting over change, they rarely do. - Shéa Bennett
Jeff: Yes they are, because most of them are selling some kind of advertising on their sites / blogs / podcasts etc. These are often sold on volume of eyeballs, and these will have increased by tens of thousands of percent after gaining all those Twitter followers. - Jim Connolly
"you did receive a gift. Advertising is sold by 1,000 viewers. Ask Ryan how much 1,000 people are worth. You did NOT earn that gift by any objective measure." - Rob Scoble, Feb 2009 - Mark
Mark: Unlikely. I think Robert is right - far too much to lose. Man, if they added me to the list, this time next week I'd be a millionaire! ;) - Shéa Bennett
Calacanis was widely quoted as saying a slot on the SUL was worth $250,000 US. - Jim Connolly
Robert: keep those threads coming, I get to follow good people on real-time, it's better than any Twitter SUL :) - Nir Ben Yona
Harscoat: I don't disagree a bit. Ron: good point about people not seeking out meritocracies. It does pollute the community, though, and people do figure that out eventually. If anything Facebook went the other way by limiting EVERYONE to 5,000. That brings celebrities down to everyone else's level, which builds good feelings and keeps marketers out. - Robert Scoble
Jim: It's worth far more than that. Mashable is close to 1 million followers. The account tweets about 15-20 times per day, most back to their own site. That network size is worth millions. TC isn't far behind, and is already saying Twitter is about 10% of their traffic. Jason's semi-serious offer was probably high at the time, but I think a spot on that list now over 12 months is worth easily a million bucks to a brand or power-blog. - Shéa Bennett
Bill: yup. Today I was talking with Alexander. He says that people will continue seeking out "smaller" spaces. My wife likes Facebook better than FriendFeed or Twitter for that reason: she feels it's the place where she can talk with just her circle of friends. - Robert Scoble
tidbit of info: spoke to someone last night (who shall remain nameless) that said they went up by >10k followers per day when they were put on the SUL. They still consider that their real follower numbers are closer to their organic growth rate. - Bill Sanders
I hope all the big players move to FF soon so I can stop visiting twitter.com altogether. - Mark
I mean, $1/user that you can hit 15-20 times per day, 365 days a year, and if they unfollow, you're going to get another 40-50,000/week because you're on the SUL? I cannot believe Twitter doesn't monetize this feature. - Shéa Bennett
Shea: I think you are probably right - the numbers are insane and the SUL system is totally corrupt. - Jim Connolly
Robert, saying that people like me "can't build a following on Friendfeed" is silly. There are only so many networks that you can put time into. For whatever reason, I've chosen Twitter. You've chosen FriendFeed. The fact that I have 10,000 followers on FriendFeed is good news, given that I don't spend time here. Heck, I had 5,000 on Twitter when I started paying attention and using the service. - Tim O'Reilly
Thanks for coming Tim, do you agree with Robert that your SUL status is a "gift" and one in which makes it difficult for you to report on twitter honestly? - Mark
And for what it's worth, the SUL isn't very useful except for bragging rights. I had about 60K twitter followers when I went on the SUL; my peak click through-rate has perhaps doubled now that I have 10 times as many. Organic followers are what matters, except, as I say, for the media credibility that you get from people who don't know any better. - Tim O'Reilly
After all, the SUL is giving you lots of clicks, and clicks = page views and page views = dollars? - Mark
Tim: this post isn't only about you. But you must admit that you had fewer followers on Twitter than I did before you got added to the Suggested User List. You are getting gifted hundreds of thousands of followers per month. They aren't engaged. They won't do what you ask them to. Have you studied the hit rates the things you retweet are getting before and after getting on teh SUL? - Robert Scoble
Tim: You deserve to be on the SUL, but many of your SUL buddies don't. It really stinks, the way some of those names were added, and people like Leo Laporte and Scoble were blanked. - Jim Connolly
Mark - being on the Twitter SUL has absolutely no influence on what I do or do not report about Twitter. - Tim O'Reilly
Ahh, I see you have studied the hit rates and your observations match mine. These aren't "real" followers and they aren't engaged. Twitter did that to remove people they don't like from the top of the leaderboards (like Calacanis, Laporte, and me). - Robert Scoble
Thanks, Tim x - Mark
Is this about numbers (i.e. ratings and money) or is this about engagement? - Sawyer Training, Inc.
Incidentally, was iJustine removed from the SUL for something she said? Just wondering. I'd be interested to see if somebody on that list could be very critical about Twitter and stay on it. - Shéa Bennett
Tim is unsurprisingly savvy on the matter: "my peak click through-rate has perhaps doubled now that I have 10 times as many. Organic followers are what matters, except, as I say, for the media credibility that you get from people who don't know any better." In other words, organic followers are worth 10x more clicks/$$ than SUL followers. - Daniel J. Pritchett
Robert, did you recently share a Whisky with @Ev? What are the twitter bosses saying about the SUL and yoru complaints? - Mark
Tim: how do we know that, though? If you paid me hundreds of thousands of dollars per year I would need to disclose that to my audience and it would be very tough not to be influenced by that money you're paying me. Twitter is paying you a huge sum of money in followers and yet you say it has no influence on you. - Robert Scoble
Mark: I didn't bring it up with @ev (other than to make a small joke that he was building his own celebrities with the SUL, which he nervously smiled at). Why? Because I'd rather have these discussions out in public where you can see them and know that I'm not playing "footsie" with Twitter to get onto the list. - Robert Scoble
Sure it changes Tim's experience of the service and (at the least) doubles his direct financial rewards from the service but he's presumably not working on a word of mouth contract with them. The only way to be *completely* sure there's no conflict of interest would be for oreilly.com to block/redirect all direct or indirect clickthroughs from Twitter and I'm sure we can all agree that's not feasible. - Daniel J. Pritchett
That's just like the Robert we have known for a long time... - Amit Nangare
If this is about engagement consider that for me most of my engagement is "downstream" with my followers (who are few but important to me) rather than "upstream" where I look for trends, leads, and insights. I only interact upstream on rare occasions when I feel I might have something to add (and this may not be one of those times). - Sawyer Training, Inc.
Tim: It is impossible for you to be totally unbiased regarding Twitter, surely? - Jim Connolly
I like to think that after Robert had that whisky from Ev, his life spiralled out of control, a bit like something in Michael Douglas' The Game. Three days disappeared in a blur, and when he woke up, the only working login he had left was on Plurk. ;) - Shéa Bennett
It's impossible for any business to be completely unbiased regarding media outlets that cover/enable them, Jim. The best we can hope for is full disclosure, published conduct guidelines, and ombudsmen. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Mark: also that wasn't an appropriate time socially. His wife was there, it wasn't an on the record type event, and it's not nice to be a jerk on a Saturday night. - Robert Scoble
Well I suppose twitter sends money to the SUL via followers, how is it it any different than Dell sending money to you via free laptops? - Mark
Daniel: We are talking about a 6 figure 'gift' from a company, to a group of people who write about that company. This is a really big deal. - Jim Connolly
@Shéa Bennett: Ijustine - man did that get old fast. That's what happens after 100 episodes of the same "yeah, yeah, you can ask ij" - Asgeir
Daniel: it's pretty hard to figure out that people are on the SUL. You have to have a new account and look every few days. Some people are building tracking systems to watch who is added and who is taken off (iJustine was on for a while but isn't anymore and she now is losing followers, if you watch the charts). Disclosure? People who are on this list don't see it as a gift. - Robert Scoble
Fair point, Rob x - Mark
It's simply a matter of scale, Jim. There is no realistic way for Tim to remain completely objective aside from eschewing Twitter altogether. As long as he is above board re: his dealings with Twitter that's really all that anyone can expect of him. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Mark: if I take gifts I disclose it. I'd rather have the followers the SUL gives someone than a free laptop. A laptop is only worth $2,000. Getting on the SUL is worth many many more times that. - Robert Scoble
when i said "you", i didnt mean any of you in particular with the laptops - Mark
"you" just sounds better than "one" - how english of me - Mark
Good point, Robert. Perhaps Twitter should make it super obvious that people are on the SUL. It *would* be nice if text from SUL tweeters was visually distinguishable from regular tweeters so that we could know to (not) pay attention to it as per our preferences. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
One respectfully disagrees :) - Ian Betteridge
Regarding iJustine, I'm guessing she was pulled from the SUL early May? Check the chart: http://twittercounter.com/compare... If that date correlates, that probably says all we need to know about the benefits. - Shéa Bennett
Robert - do you think all Twitter-related content published by SULers should include a boilerplate disclaimer such as "BTW I get zillions of clicks through Twitter's preferential treatment" at the top of every story? - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Daniel: at Steve Broback's Twitter Conference the Twitter employees were visibly uncomfortable talking about the SUL. It's interesting that they added a "verified" icon to my account but they aren't identifying who is on the SUL. - Robert Scoble
Whoa, Shéa - Mark
It was cool of Tim to 'almost' talk about the SUL here. The guy's a tech legend and is there on merit - I just wish the list was balanced so others who equally deserve a slot had one. - Jim Connolly
I won't argue with you there at all, Robert. I would be happy seeing disclaimers and graphics denoting SUL status. I was thinking the problem was more Twitter's than Tim's but I suppose it's both. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Daniel: yes. If the New York Times journalists were receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company they cover, wouldn't you expect them to disclose that? - Robert Scoble
That graphic blew my mind, Shea. Thanks! - Daniel J. Pritchett
Are most professional journalists doing online content paid based on page views? - Mark
or is it pay per article? - Mark
Jim: I wish the list was a meritocracy and based on your actual usage and value you add to Twitter. Personally I wish we had a list a lot more like wefollow.com or alltop.com than what Twitter came up with. Mark: yes. - Robert Scoble
Robert: EXACTLY! - Jim Connolly
Mark: Journalism companies get paid by 1000 page views. That's called CPM. They then usually pay their reporters per article, or per word, or they are salaried. - Robert Scoble
One reason is FriendFeed lacks a way of linking to other users in a post. On Twitter you can @timoreilly or @TechCrunch and I'd click on them and see if they are worth following. Since you can't do that on FriendFeed I don't bother to look to see if they are worth following. - ChiliMac
Jim: I find it insulting that Oprah was added to the Suggested User List after doing only a dozen or so entries on Twitter. How did they know she would be a good Twitterer after only that few? How insulting is that to all the other people who put tons more work into the system? - Robert Scoble
I don't think this SUL thing is about numbers, it's about ego and personality. Can you live without expressing your personal believes and have PR people do your job or say what you have to say out loud on public and give up the courtesy and goodies. Why is it about personality? Example: When Scoble came to visit my country (Israel) everyone could have a talk with him directly without... more... - Nir Ben Yona
ChiliMac: funny, I found you just fine and subscribed to you here. It's a different way, though. Here you put full URLs into the message. Like "hey, everyone, follow ChiliMac here: http://friendfeed.com/chilimac " - Robert Scoble
Robert: If being on the list has negligible value as you proposed (and Tim essentially confirmed) in terms of click-throughs, are we perhaps being overly concerned with its 'benefits'? If Tim's network has gone x10 and his clicks are x2, it's likely that his gain is from a lot of people who followed him organically (i.e., normal network growth). - Shéa Bennett
Robert: The Oprah situation took the SUL issue and exposed it for what it is; a 'buddy list.' Not based on merit or value. I only heard of Twitter because of you and Leo. There are hundreds of thousands of early users who only discovered Twitter off you and Leo's mentions. How soon they forget! - Jim Connolly
Shea: perhaps we are overly concerned. But I notice that people don't often remove themselves from this list, and even when they do (like in Jay Rosen's case) it's only after really thinking through the ethical responsibility of taking a huge gift from a corporation that they potentially cover. - Robert Scoble
Jim: exactly. I really hate it when companies love you when they are getting started because they need a few evangelistic users (ICQ started with only 40 users, so that's all you really need) but then they stab you in the back once they don't need you anymore. That's why more than a few bloggers now ask for stock or fees to cover their companies. Me? I will continue being a sucker for an entrepreneur with a great product or service. - Robert Scoble
value is the way and not arbitrary will from kings (ev and biz eg)... so this thread opens one's eyes to the not so fair and ego driven aspect of twitter as a cy ( I still remember @ev with the Trump daughter in front of the white house ;) - SUL = buddy list of @ev and @biz... liked Jim suggestion - Harscoat
I agree about Oprah but Twitter wants names on there - people that the 180 million Facebook users they don't have on Twitter right now will recognise. Everybody knows Oprah. It isn't about being a 'good Twitterer' (which is of course a relative term - one man's P. Diddy is another man's Jack Schofield) - it's about new users going, "Hey, I know this person." and that validates the... more... - Shéa Bennett
I wish Twitter wold make it easier to connect with people that has same interests. wefollow is on the right track, but people add themselves to categories they don't belong in. The one with most follower under #photo has, as far as I can tell, never written anything about photos, or photo related news - Asgeir
there are the "cooperators" and "free riders/defectors" in life (in evo psy terms) - Robert is a cooperator (interested in the overall value for the group rather than his own personal interest)! pointing at entrepreneurs with great product and services for the community. Do not change - Harscoat
Twitter is really just a broadcast medium, you can be influential and be on the SUL, but it's more likely you just have a bunch of people checking out the service once and never looking again. FF allows you to build value and relationships around conversations. Take this very thread. Which is more monetizable in the long run? I think twitter will just become another protocol, FF provides a far more valuable service. But that's just my opinion really, and it all depends on how YOU define "useful" - John
I try to participate, but I have anywhere from 60 to 80 hours of work a week, and adding Twitter and FF to the list increased my hours. So I can't always participate even though I want to. - RobinDotNet
Robert, I'm intrigued by your success and focus on this subject. I wonder, how do you think a group fairs compared to a single personality? At the moment, you're the king of social media in my opinion because of your engagement. The attention you command is ten fold the value of Ashton's million plus drive-by fans. But, could 10 top-notch social folks stuck to a brand (like Mashable's core Twitter brand) out-perform a single guy's personal touch? [Sorry, I did go a bit OT] - Jason Nunnelley
The truth is the SUL list on Twitter falsely inflates everyone numbers who are on it, I suspect if Tim O'Reilly wasn't on the list his numbers percentage wise would be just about the same whether we are talking Twitter or FF. I also think that since FF doesn't have an auto follow method, like twitter, their is more thought put into who someone is going to follow. - Kim Landwehr
Kim: That's true, but it's not just a question of auto-follow. One, Facebook doesn't allow one-way following - you have to be 'friends'. Two, for most people, letting somebody friend them on FB is a fairly big deal as that person then has access to a lot of your life (personal details, photos, etc - it AMAZES me how many people put their cellphone number on Facebook, and then just... more... - Shéa Bennett
I agree SUL is billboard advertising. Essel-i support that 'just like to read' is fine for some. That's how I participate with Wikipedia and I can see some on twitter will simply be there looking for new eddies in the river of news. FriendFeed and Facebook lead for those of us wanting greater depth: No matter if you are a platform or a "personality" how is quality engagement promoted... more... - Lane Rapp
Jason: I am often at a disadvantage competing against brands with many people employed like TechCrunch and Mashable. What was interesting was that I (and others like Leo Laporte, Calacanis, Kawasaki, et al) was able to compete before the SUL propelled them above me and into a different league. At least on Twitter. Everywhere else I'm still kicking their behinds. Which is worth studying,... more... - Robert Scoble
I am not on the Twitter SUL. I have 15,000 on Twitter and 2,700 on FF. Could it be that there are fewer peeps on FF? - Beth Kanter
Beth: that's a pretty common ratio, but doesn't match anyone's who is on the SUL. But, you miss my point. On Facebook (which has far far far more people than Twitter) TechCrunch has far fewer fans than I do but on Twitter he has far more, all artificially gained. If TechCrunch were smart he'd have those people also follow his fan page on Facebook. - Robert Scoble
But you bring up an interesting point, Beth, for another thread. Why aren't your followers good followers of yours? I imagine you've told them about friendfeed. Why don't your followers listen to you? I thought it was just me. - Robert Scoble
What about the shear time to keep up with the topics of the day? For me twitter is all about reading quick short headlines, getting a pulse on what's going on, and then making a decision on what topics are important enough to engage deeper on. FF, FC, blogs, etc are the place to go deeper into the conversation. If you buy off on that, then the math comes into play,Twitter is the grand... more... - Robert Wilkins
Oprah, by the way, has 1,619,000 on Twitter and 760,000 on Facebook. I wonder how many followers Oprah was gifted by being on the recommended follower list, but you can see why Twitter is doing this. The higher Oprah's numbers are on Twitter the cooler Twitter seems and the more hype it gets and the more celebrities want to chase Oprah, even if they are for fake followers who don't mean that much. Brilliant strategy on Twitter's part. - Robert Scoble
yea, oprah=cool. you toting your camera maybe not so much to mainstream, glad to see the new hulk photo ;-) - Lane Rapp
Lane: Oprah is cool? Have you seen her Tweets? Not cool at all. - Robert Scoble
I have very different uses for each: Twitter, Facebook, FriendFeed... - Kelly A Nelson
Robert, Oprah's tweets are indeed superficial. Totally not engaged. She would do well to use twitter to engage both her audience and her causes between seasons. My joke was framed sarcastically enuff, but was to support your entire discussion here, that the SUL is rigged for twitter and celeb marketing. - Lane Rapp
Meh. all these celebs taking twitter away from us geeks :( its ours :( - Mark
Ellen Degeneres does a good job in my opinion - Lane Rapp
Mark, give twitter to the masses, sometimes I get the feeling FF wants to remain a niche. I can't say I would be disappointed as long as the lights stay on. We can contribute like we do on NPR. - Lane Rapp
Lane: they said that about Twitter two years ago. The thing is here that FriendFeed has nooks and crannies that can let us hide from the masses a lot better than we can hide on Twitter. - Robert Scoble
Beth, I think the difference between Twitter and FF is two fold, compounded and a big indicator as to why Robert may fair so much better here and FB. Twitter simplifies the competition (if there is such a thing, though people perceive it's real, so it is). It's all about followers and extremely competitive to gain them. FriendFeed is culturally different, and conversational. This kind... more... - Jason Nunnelley
Yes we can hide away in little corners, and even go private rooms if we want a little insider chat. Friendfeed is our underground movement! - Mark
Something Robert has done that works best in more conversational SM is brand himself as an all around cool guy. He's not "Robert Scoble the tech guru." Mashable and Techcrunch are very limited in their scope, so readers are likely to read their blip about their preferred technology and move on. Robert engages his readers on a multitude of topics, much more conversational. He'll actually... more... - Jason Nunnelley
Robert, thanks I'll do my part to welcome the masses while I learn more about the nooks and crannies. I noticed how all the FF user help rooms are active, but the Facebook user groups have limited discussion. - Lane Rapp
Lane (WARNING: shameless promotion) I'd be happy to host more conversations in newb regarding Facebook if you like, post tutorials, videos, etc. Are you more often a question source or an answer source? <edit> Meaning, I'd like to have someone else post help there if I start pushing my readers to the group. - Jason Nunnelley
Anyone heard any news about new friendfeed features? Sure would be cool to be able to post images and things in the discussion thread. - Mark
I hate to hit and run, but 90% of the people I follow I follow because I've seen them say interesting things and participate here. - Steve Lowe
Steve, why is that Hit and Run? - Jason Nunnelley
Is the FriendFeed back-end on Scala already? :) - The Pageman
Jason, I'd like that and think the rural, the elder, the poor, the disabled, and much of africa who get better high speed net access will as well. As fast as these platforms are growing the users have to help out with the concierge desk. I've got questions and I'm still newb enuff to answer some with empathy - Lane Rapp
If more people used clients that don't require following people to group them and/or see their tweets, the followers would n't be half as relevant on Twitter. I converse with lots of people I don't follow on facebook and FriendFeed. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Robert, the bottom line is people follow people for three reasons: content, content and content. The question is what difference does the SUL on Twitter make if most people just ignore boring content and move on? - Jason Nunnelley
My mom joined Twitter today (that tells me its not Myspace, so much for my original thesis) but she didn't necessarily want to follow this suggested list, but from talking to her, it sounded like it was "fostered" onto her. I don't know what the steps look like since I joined a long time ago, but it sounds like for a newbie you are pretty much going to auto follow these people - Stephen Pickering
I have more friends/followers on Friendfeed than I do on any other site - Joe Dawson
the followers picked up from SUL are folks who are getting started -- it's like the old PCH magazine subs: renewals and engagemt were horrible but the audience inflation paid back in ad dollars. The social web is about "finding" an audience, just like the old days before you could use web clout to open the spigot and drive a massive audience. The SUL is a Web 1.0 artifact, like cutting... more... - Dan McCarthy from BuddyFeed
Robert, et al: There was some important information shared in this thread yesterday, and I've put a lot of it together in a post for Twittercism, focusing on comparisons between the follower counts of Tim, Robert and iJustine. Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers. http://twittercism.com/suggest... - Shéa Bennett
isn't 10000 followers on friendfeed just about the same percentage of the community as 600000 on twitter? - Iphigenie
Stephen, you have to unclick the people you don't want to follow in the SUL. - Jason Nunnelley
Great thread. Thanks Robert. - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed
Thanks for sharing - great info Robert!! - Laurie DesAutels
If what you say is true, then the terms need to be changed. As for them not transferring to any other social network, why is that even necessary? There's a great study out there that states 90% of your network will be lurkers anyway. You'll never know that they exist, however, it's still comforting to know they're there.... - Mike Shields
Robert: Now that you mention it, I will tell them about FriendFeed. - Beth Kanter
Robert: I hate it when there's a "food fight" over ideas. Please remember that Twitter is still trying to find a business model. These $100,000 gifts are basically Calacanis "Bucks"... you can't actually buy anything with them except the promise of VC investment. VC investment is simply mortgaging your future. - davem51
Was it wrong with Radio from UserLand had some suggested feeds to follow? No. It was a smart business idea and Adam Curry invested to get more readers. Smart attempt to save Userland from failing. - davem51
I met Tim O'Reilly in 1990 working the O'Reilly booth at Usenix. It was one of the most interesting conversations I have ever had at a conference... Tim knows how to present idea but more importantly he has the biggest ears in tech. He's got an Open Source Mind. - davem51
am i on twittr? - j edmonds
Tim O'Reilly
Nice summary of the mind-bending work of Jeff Jonas: http://www.itjungle.com/tfh... Jeff is one of my mentors when it comes to thinking about data
Hmm. I wonder what he thinks of RDF and other semantic technologies. - Michael R. Bernstein
Excellent post. I'm doing some machine learning and data mining and the article shows many of the problems that we face trying to correlate data. Or even worse, to find out those relations that do not exist yet. - Arturo Servin
Dave Winer
Interesting. More people voted in Iran than were eligable to vote. Could be a problem. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009...
Who do they think they are, Florida? - Jack&Cleo
Jack, we'll know when they tally how many voted for Pat Buchanan. - Ayşe E.
mashable
The Social Marketing Playbook was released today: well worth a read if you're a social media marketer: http://blog.360i.com/social-...
National Wildlife
Raise a Green Dog!: National Wildlife Federation Wildlife Series Dog Toys! - http://blog.raiseagreendog.com/2008...
For each toy purchased, a donation will be made to directly support National Wildlife Federation's conservation and education programs. - National Wildlife
Dave Winer
Taking off the training wheels - http://www.scripting.com/stories...
what scenario came from Larry Page today? realtime indexing of the web? - coffee
wow. Larry Page: "At first, my team laughed and did not believe me. With Twitter, now they know they have to do it". they *have to* do it. when my boss talks like that I listen. :) - coffee
Please relax the 140 limit. When delicious went to 1,000 chars in the descriptions, it made it much more relevant for me. Finally space to really describe something... - Joe
Amy Sample Ward
Do you use Facebook? Are you an org, artist, creator, etc? Use the @CreativeCommons app to license your work! http://www.amysampleward.org/2009...
Beth Kanter
So you want a Facebook Fan Page for Your Nonprofit? Here's the Scoop! - http://beth.typepad.com/beths_b...
Rui Pereira
TheStar.com | Movies | Star Trek vanquishes Star Wars - http://www.thestar.com/article...
TheStar.com | Movies | Star Trek vanquishes Star Wars
"But what's more interesting for long-time sci-fi fans is that, at this moment, Star Trek is absolutely, most definitely, cooler than Star Wars." - Rui Pereira from Bookmarklet
I don't think I can ever concede that Star Trek is cooler than Star Wars...my DNA just won't allow it! - Carlton Hackett
Always Has Been. - Leo Laporte
Its ok Carlton, Trekkies forgive you - Brent - Yes I am
There is nothing 'cool' about sci fi fandom. If you are a fan of either I.P., you are geekish. Might as well accept the idea. Now, having said that, Star Trek is nothing but the red-headed stepchild of Star Wars. - Fleagle
Star Trek is, or at least was, science fiction and Star Wars has always been Space Opera, basically an adventure serial in space. They're completely different and absolutely lovely. And the Star Wars prequels are good movies. There, I said it. Now no one will take me seriously. - Henrik
Total bait title. I agree though. Trek has always been meatier than Wars - Mo Kargas
I loved the Movie though, it was unexpectedly Good!! - Paul from twhirl
I'm pretty sure Star Wars isn't science fact (unless that galaxy far, far away really did exist), so yes, it's very much science fiction. - Fleagle
saw the movie to day in georgia realy liked it - daveccorey
@Henrik- that's exactly how I feel about them. Star Trek is like the CSI version of Sci-Fi, while Star Wars is like the Law & Order of Sci-Fi/Space Opera. They're appealing for different reasons, one cerebral and one adrenal. - Carlton Hackett
"There is nothing 'cool' about sci fi fandom. If you are a fan of either I.P., you are geekish. Might as well accept the idea." That's one of the most failed attempts at insulting a group I've heard in a while. Geek IS the new Cool. If you're not a geek these days, you're not very cool. And you can't be a real geek unless you have at least SOME affinity for science fiction. The heyday of geeks being the under-class is over. At least for anyone past high-school. - Lindsay
Geeks shall inherit the earth. They laughed at us for computers, IM, mobile tech...WHO'S LAUGHING NOW! Geeks are the ones to follow for the latest anything. - Mo Kargas
++++LINDSAY!!! - Carlton Hackett
Deep Space Nine. That is all. - Bwana ☠
I am a fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars, and found this to be a far superior "prequel" film. Unlike the Star Wars prequels, Star Trek actually took the time to make a nod to its predecessor by including Leonard Nimoy as the "future Spock". - Thomas Ward
I don't even like scifi movies and I thought Star Trek was terrific. Definitely has potential for future films too. - Al Stevens
Amit Patel
The San Antonio Area Freeway System - US 281 North "Super-Street" Proposal - http://www.texashighwayman.com/us281ss...
The San Antonio Area Freeway System - US 281 North "Super-Street" Proposal
Show all
The “super street” configuration of a road interchange is useful when most traffic turns onto or off of the main road. It reduces the number of traffic light phases from 4/5 to 2, but anyone wanting to go straight on the minor road is inconvenienced. - Amit Patel from Bookmarklet
That sound you hear? Yup, a boggled mind. - (Curtis) Alan Jackson
And what the heck is wrong with just sticking a roundabout in the middle of the crossroads? - Tony Ruscoe
Hehe. i live in britain with lots of roundabouts ;). the geek in me rejoices at reading this. i dunno why - Roberto Bonini
i love the pure form of the autobahnkreuz: http://www.vogelgesang-av.de/cms... needs not a single light...just a lot of space :D - Chris Hofmann
and so why not multi level? is it too expensive? .. just lift the direct lanes of the heavy traffic (281) - pb:
Ha. We have a number of these in Manila. I never would have thought to use the moniker "super-street." - Nick in Manila
Multi-level roads, either bridge or tunnel, are *very* expensive for some reason. I hope some day materials engineering produces ways to bring these costs down. I'd love for lots of roads to be moved underground. - Amit Patel
A roundabout might work here; I don't know. This particular configuration is optimized for the major street having much higher traffic than the minor street. In essence it's two three-way interchanges next to each other, but because they have the other side, they can use U-turns instead of left-turns. - Amit Patel
Only 2 light phases, but now you have two lights -- the main light, and the U-turn light before it. If you want to go left on the main street from the minor street, you have to go through *three* lights: one to go right onto the major street, one to U-turn, and one to continue back through the intersection you were just at. But I guess with the way they set the lights up it works out better in the end. Their Z-shaped crosswalk layout is funky... - ⓞnor
that looks painful - Kemal
@Amit, thanks, interesting. ....but back to Google. -> http://whonu.com -> this IS how the search home page should look(adv search hints!) ..PLEASE. tell them. .. somebody knows some Google people ??! .. please. buy this yesterday!,and immediately implement (or similar) on the world's number 1 site...Do give this world a break! .. and shortcuts, "/" and "?" ,, /////and yes,,Google... more... - pb:
Hmmm. "It is estimated that by doing so, traffic throughput on 281 could increase by at least 30%, average rush hour speeds could increase by about 10 mph in both directions, and travel time could be reduced by about eight minutes between Loop 1604 and Marshall Rd. Additionally, the project improves safety by reducing conflict points from 32 to 14." - Mike Reynolds
They STILL haven't fixed these intersections yet?!? Holy crap!!! - Vampire Hunter DYSP
That's not the same as messy "Nus de la Trinitat" in Barcelona http://www.fotolog.com/barzelo... - Jordi Rosell
@Amit Google Boston's Big Dig. They moved quite a few major roads underground. - Roberto Bonini
The Big Dig was big and expensive. (from the Wikipedia article: “The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the U.S.”) I'm hoping that technology makes projects like the Big Dig commonplace (by making them cost not much more than surface streets). - Amit Patel
Amit, that would be nice, but I see no reason to be hopeful in that particular direction. Short of magical nanobots, do you have any technology in mind that makes moving many tons of earth around significantly cheaper? In many ways it's more expensive now than it used to be, because we're less willing to have workers die and suffer horrible conditions. - ⓞnor
That's why it's merely my hope and not an expectation. I think it's possible that tunnel-boring machines will be made smaller. If you have 1000 of them instead of 1, the manufacturing cost could go down, and when something breaks down you just put in another one. Of course I'd be happier with magical nanobots :) - Amit Patel
As long as you're hoping and not expecting, you might as well hope for teleporters, then we can do away with all this tedious transportation infrastructure and just plant the spaces between buildings with lovely gardens. But it would be interesting to see something like a cost breakdown for the Big Dig so we could talk semi-intelligently about which sort of magic technology would be the most helpful. - ⓞnor
I have often wanted to be able to teleport. That way, I'd never miss the bus! - Andrew C (✔)
Are roundabouts too complicated for an average American? No, really. - ЕП
It depends on the roundabout. Small ones are Ok. the larger they get, the more confusing they get. - Roberto Bonini
Frank Kammerdiener
AMC theaters are running FAKE IMAX's and charging $5 extra - http://azizisbored.tumblr.com/post...
I got duped too! The quality of the movie left me feeling not as mad but it's still a lie. - Sean Powell
Eric Johnson
"The challenge is to raise $10,000 from social media users through donations of any denomination. All funds raised by the World Partnership Walk (100%) go directly to international development initiatives - not one cent is spent on administration. As a bonus, the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) will match the funds raised meaning any dollar you donate has double the impact (2x impact)." - Eric Johnson from Bookmarklet
The pitch is a fundraising race among users of Facebook, Twitter, Digg, LinkedIn & MySpace. Not sure if there's a direct connection to/partnership with the services, but that may not be necessary. - Eric Johnson
Benjamin
Eight ways to boost your creativity - New Scientist - http://www.newscientist.com/special...
Eight ways to boost your creativity - New Scientist
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