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Tim has 617,000 followers on Twitter -- almost all gained because he is on the suggested user list. But he only has 10,000 followers on FriendFeed. TechCrunch has almost the same pattern. Why is this? - Robert Scoble

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They can't get people to follow them because the people who added them are not really listening and impressionable. - Louis Gray

You have to be engaged and interactive to have influence. - Louis Gray

It's what I was hinting at this morning. Most of the users on Twitter don't actually take action or DO anything. They aren't followers. They aren't listening. They aren't engaged. So these audiences can't be transfered anywhere else. - Robert Scoble

Twitter is Revolution! Yay Twitter! - Steven E. Streight

This is Twitter's true lock in. - Robert Scoble

Could it also be that they never talk about Friendfeed or Facebook while on Twitter and therefore no one knows that they're actually here? - Kenton

Yeah, Twitter has turned into more micro-rss for me versus conversational. - Tony

Why would any freedom loving person NOT have a green avatar? - Steven E. Streight

617,000, but how many of those are active users? I'd imagine 50% or more are one time users, dead accounts - sean percival

It's all about narcissism for most people unfortunately. - Steven E. Streight

It's impossible for anybody to have 617,000 followers on Friendfeed, because that's about double the active network size. ;) - Shéa Bennett

LOL - Steven E. Streight

Shea: very funny! - Robert Scoble

Kenton, That's it for me. I follow Tim on Twitter, actually find him very engaged there, but didn't automatically assume he was on FB and FF. Now I will - Francine Hardaway

I hate FaceBook - Steven E. Streight

also the chance of someone responding on a sul is higher on friendfeed that is on twitter - Kashif Khan

Shea: the problem with your thesis is that it holds true on Facebook. I have more fans there than TechCrunch does. - Robert Scoble

Also, if you only ever re-tweet instead of putting up original content your followers are going to tend to be more passive. - Kenton

how about them dopey Positive Affirmation tweeters? Ugh! - Steven E. Streight

If I want inspirational quotes, I'll open a Bible thank you. - Steven E. Streight

Like prob all of you I am on numerous social websites, twitter is not great at all unless you like the constant stream of tweet torrents - it is quick to interact with, that's why I use it the most right now. - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Kenton: that's true too, but TechCrunch puts up original content and he has fewer followers on Facebook than I do (and I post almost NOTHING on Facebook). - Robert Scoble

This is the very basic definition of following, you don't act, you follow. If you want to engage people, you need a community, which twitter can help you to manage but won't do for you. @loic can make many people do something, he has influence, because he built a community, not because he has followers. - Jonathan Belgourari

Jonathan: yup and Guy Kawasaki has a lot more influence than I do and he neither is on Twitter's SUL and he doesn't even write all his own Tweets (he admits he has a team writing them). - Robert Scoble

twitter is also great to find out about people in a quick way, you otherwise wold never engage with. the next step blog, friendfeed, fb or email is just as easy. - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

if you have a lot of followers interaction is very limited. You miss out on so much when you hit the refresh page when you have followers . Im guessing after many attempts of trying to communicate and not receiving anything back ppl quit - Kashif Khan

Jonathan: I call that a "reader" or a "consumer" then, not a follower. Followers do what you ask them to do. :-) - Robert Scoble

Went and looked for him on FB. Not even a photo? Does he hang out there? - Francine Hardaway

on a much smaller scale I've looked at overlaps between my twitter (3000) fb (900) ff (800); there seems to be about 300 people who are common to all three, the rest choose where and how to interact with me. I tend to think of the 300 as my "digital dunbar number". - JP Rangaswami

Kashif: I interact here with almost everyone and I have 42,000 followers here. - Robert Scoble

good point Robert, I don't really consider Facebook a place to go for information like that so I had only really considered Friendfeed. - Kenton

Robert Scoble you are insane that does not count:) - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Twitter is a different medium to the others, Robert. It's a lot less of a commitment to follow somebody on that network. FF has a relatively tiny user base so a comparison there is apples and oranges. Facebook for the majority is still less about following *anybody* and more about following people you know and trust. Why? Because you're giving away a lot of yourself each time you add... more... - Shéa Bennett

Alex: heheh. I'm not the only insane one. - Robert Scoble

but where is interacting easier , twitter or friendfeed ? - Kashif Khan

haha... - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Shea: the truth about Twitter is that many people check it out for a few minutes and then never return to the service. Or if they do return, they do so very sporadically. Over here or on Facebook the audiences are much more engaged. - Robert Scoble

I agree with Louis. you have to interact and participate. - Johnny from BuddyFeed

imagine having to track this same conversation using twitters web interface and not having tweetdeck or seismic to help you out - Kashif Khan

Robert: I keep hearing that but I'm very engaged with my network. And I regularly remove the people who I feel don't make any kind of an effort. It's all about keeping things relative. - Shéa Bennett

I am still scared to contact anybody on Facebook, because I don't know if the want to stay private/real friends, or if they like me joining their conversation = I never send friend requests - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

I agree re: Twitter - they check it out and then leave - the follow and forget methodology. I guess the real measure of how interactive his followers are would be to request that they do something (click a link, etc.) In reality, if he got 1/10 of 1% to do anything, I'd be impressed. - Jeff Pomeroy

Shea: the other truth about the Suggested User List is these are not organic followers. They are people who opened an account and clicked "add all the suggested users." Before Tim and Mashable and TechCrunch were added to that list I had more followers on Twitter. So did Leo Laporte. So did Guy Kawasaki. So, most of those newer followers that Tim and Mike got by being on the SUL aren't strong followers. That's why they aren't very engaged. - Robert Scoble

You also have to remember that the majority of FB's 200 million users are non-techy people, many of whom see FB *as* the internet, not just a product of it. I think Twitter's audience is maturer (in terms of average age, as well as content) and less interesting in bells and whistles (videos, music etc). - Shéa Bennett

Jeff: what got Twitter to be so cool is engagedment USED to be a lot higher than 1/10th of 1% for everyone. Now it has gone down. - Robert Scoble

I have no disagreement at all about the SUL. I've written several articles about it on Twittercism. It needs to be scrapped or totally revamped. And yeah, a lot of the followers folk get from being on the SUL are very casual users, assuming they return at all. - Shéa Bennett

Shea: I totally disagree with that thesis. I did a survey of 600 Web innovators, influencers, and press. About 85% are on all three social networks (Twitter, Friendfeed, Facebook). And many of those are participating more on Facebook than on Twitter lately. Why is that? - Robert Scoble

Robert, my 'suggested user list' was full of esoteric treehuggers and feelgood-psychos. I am a software architect and astrophysics hugger instead. Facebook hooks me up with really strange algorithms - meh.. - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

"you reached level 14 in #spymaster" - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

:) - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Alex: I blocked spymaster. :-) - Robert Scoble

I would too, like many other things, but than I want diversity. I want a lot of different people and opinions to challenge my thinking. - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Maybe they are participating on Facebook more because they can truly control who sees what when they have their discussions. Twitter allows a lot of 'noise' to occur from unknown followers when these people are trying to communicate amongst themselves. Maybe Facebook or Friendfeed is just the better medium for those types of interactions. - Jeff Pomeroy

Robert: Which thesis? Blasted Friendfeed and its lack of threaded comments. ;) - Shéa Bennett

even on FB its easier to track conversations - Kashif Khan

Jeff, I agree. And I also think 'older people are more comfortable with FB. The 'older folks' on twitter are broadcasting their wisdoms and not interacting - most of them... - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

great listening to you guys - friendfeed proves something right here;) see ya. i'm out... - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

As for why your list are involved more on FB than Twitter, I have no idea. But 600 from either network is still a very small sample. I'm confused how these folk are actually "participating" on FB, too. Specifically, what does that word mean on that network? What do they do? My experience is that over half of my followers go ballistic if I update my status on FB more than about 15-20 times per day. And I'm *very* selective to make sure it's only the good stuff. :) - Shéa Bennett

It is personality vs brand. You Robert, Jason Calacanis, Leo Lapporte, are personalities before brand. We talk to you as real people. O'riley is brand before personality. We are not used to talking back to a brand unless we're miffed about something. It is just not normal. For instance today when you asked my question at the #hpreveal thing it cought them off guard and totally blew me... more... - Ron Hudson

Ron: good point. The real answer is that Twitter totally messed with the system by choosing its own "stars" instead of letting the real stars organically bubble up to the top. Since O'Reilly and Arrington are "chosen stars" their followers aren't strong followers like the ones that they got organically. Even Arrington admits this in analysis. - Robert Scoble

I totally agree with Ron about that. That's what I love about FF and Twitter - it's the first time that we've had anything like a level playing field for discourse. And the ones who don't engage now stand out like sore thumbs. - Shéa Bennett

I always love it when somebody has 40,000 followers but is following 40 people. What a waste. Why even engage? You, Robert have almost as many followers as followees. - Curt Mercadante

for me it seems that given his lopsided ratio, it gives the impression that he is not truly interactive but rather broadcasting and waiting for feedback. - Eran Even-Kesef

An engaged audience is built slowly, not quickly - Jesse Stay

So now when a new user gets on Twitter they see the same reinforced message from everywhere else. "These are people/brands you should LISTEN to" It is not "These are people to get to know and have conversation with" - Ron Hudson

Robert, wouldn't the organic SUL just be the top 100 most-followed? Which even before the SUL got going wasn't exactly a bastion of quality. All Twitter needs to do is mix things up - when I sign up (or check the SUL at any time), the service should give me X of its own recommendations, and the same amount that are tailored to me by my own interests. Of course, for this to really work... more... - Shéa Bennett

Curt: lots of people use these things for broadcasting. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do prefer to follow people who engage. - Robert Scoble

Hey Louis Gray are you anti-SUL like many of us in this thread? - Mark

I followed @timoreilly for a while on twitter, but didn't find him interesting enough to keep following. It's true that @GuyKawasaki doesn't write all his own tweets, but I like them and look forward to them (if one of his ladies have written the tweet they will have their initials at the end of it.) I follow you, Robert, because I like your tweets too. I will follow anyone who follows... more... - Andrew Jordan

Shea: I can see about 100 ways to build a useful SUL. The current SUL just serves @ev and @biz 's own egos and purposes. - Robert Scoble

Mark: just remember that Twitter has signaled to the world that anyone who begs to be on, or complains about the SUL will never get onto it. - Robert Scoble

Robert: I agree. Between us, if they added you overnight, would you ask to be removed? I suspect you would, and I know at least one other has. - Shéa Bennett

Robert: Why do you think you are not on the Twitter SUL? iJustine was on it (til she was removed) - yet no Scobleizer - It makes zero sense. - Jim Connolly

Shea: yes, I will ask to be removed. I know one person who removed himself too. (Jay Rosen, journalism professor). Why would I ask to be removed? Because it's a huge gift and one that I would feel I need to disclose every time I talk about Twitter. Look at how many times I'm asked whether I'm paid by FriendFeed. Well, everyone on the Suggested User List is being paid by Twitter. - Robert Scoble

This feels like irc without the useful tools like tab-auto-complete. I keep wanting to ssh out and open irssi. . . - Ron Hudson

Aw man, I miss IRC. - Jason Nunnelley

There's a group of people I follow on twitter not to be part of their conversation but to inform conversations I have with people I know. My friends/acquaintances don't use friendfeed so I have little use for it. Facebook I leave for friends/family and twitter/web forums are for acquaintances. - Jonathan

Jim: three reasons I have never been on Twitter's Suggested User List: 1. Technically I was difficult to put on the list before they got rid of the @ reply functionality (I was one of the 3% who turned that feature on). 2. I talk about FriendFeed all the time (I wouldn't add someone who talked about a competitor all the time to my service either). 3. I have had days when I'm too noisy... more... - Robert Scoble

Does anyone know or have links to comments made by people on the SUL about the issue? - Mark

Robert: Thats a very honest and almost certainly accurate answer. - Jim Connolly

Mark: I've had some contact with @adventuregirl. - Shéa Bennett

There is a risk here of course regarding complaining about the SUL that one could easily be accused of sour grapes; that is, along the lines of, "How did THEY get on there, and not me?" Although I also suspect that the majority (the masses, if you will) on Twitter don't really care at all about things like the SUL, and are fairly blasé to the criticisms about it. I sincerely believe... more... - Shéa Bennett

Mark: honestly I've been following the SUL and other than when Veronica ripped me a new one for asking whether there was some sort of corruption to get on the list (big brands get on the list, for instance, and this list is totally corruptible because it is NOT a meritocracy) I can't remember ever hearing someone on the SUL discussing it in public. They know better because they are being gifted hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of followers and they don't want to be removed. - Robert Scoble

Mark: It's REALLY hard getting answers from people like Veronica Belmont or Pete Cashmore. They are both really cool people, but neither have replied to anything I have asked them, in relation to their SUL places. It's like they have been gagged. - Jim Connolly

Mark: It's here http://www.thetechnewsblog.com/2009... - Jim Connolly

Shea: most people will not care, that's right, until they figure out they are peasants in a royalty system. Then they will seek out systems that are meritocracies. The tide is already moving. - Robert Scoble

Robert: To your earlier point re: Tim O'Reilly - if the SUL system is broken and really just a method whereby new twitter users follow & forget, are these people truly "being gifted hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of followers"? - Jeff Pomeroy

I'm sure most of them don't wanna look a gift horse in the mouth. Is that the right metaphor? hehe - Mark

Hmm, I'm not sure Robert. Nobody seemed to leave FB when they were at risk of being sold out - the numbers just went up and up. I think the people who truly fight for this stuff are always in a real minority - they seem more prevalent because they're loud! :) I think most people drift away from social networks when they seem to have run their course, like MySpace. - Shéa Bennett

Jeff: yes, they are because they are now owning the top of lists at http://www.wefollow.com and other places. Also they are getting PR on TV shows worth many thousands of dollars (journalists love picking sources with huge numbers after their names). Finally: SOME of these followers DO engage. - Robert Scoble

Maybe Tim is too focused? he is not a chit chat BS guy enough to interest large amounts of people... Focus gives value but value that is high and very specific to certain (few) people. As you hinted Robert, value is not a matter of # of followers but of real impact /traction. People will listen and act more upon what is said on FF. FF is more value than traffic. - Harscoat

Maybe if a few dozen of us from this thread @reply the big players asking for a statement on their placw on SUL they will respond? - Mark

Scoble: I'm not sure they/we will seek out meritocracies. Like I said before it is not expected. I can go to crackberry forums or IRC if I want to be respected in a niche I think Facebook is more likely to draw people who want to be heard by their peers, because generally it is people you already have an established hierarchy of popularity with. It's high-school all over again. We tend to hang with our group and don't expect to be heard in others. - Ron Hudson

Don't get me wrong - folk will put their name on lists, and that kind of non-committal stuff. But when it comes to the crunch and, you know, actually quitting over change, they rarely do. - Shéa Bennett

Jeff: Yes they are, because most of them are selling some kind of advertising on their sites / blogs / podcasts etc. These are often sold on volume of eyeballs, and these will have increased by tens of thousands of percent after gaining all those Twitter followers. - Jim Connolly

"you did receive a gift. Advertising is sold by 1,000 viewers. Ask Ryan how much 1,000 people are worth. You did NOT earn that gift by any objective measure." - Rob Scoble, Feb 2009 - Mark

Mark: Unlikely. I think Robert is right - far too much to lose. Man, if they added me to the list, this time next week I'd be a millionaire! ;) - Shéa Bennett

Calacanis was widely quoted as saying a slot on the SUL was worth $250,000 US. - Jim Connolly

Robert: keep those threads coming, I get to follow good people on real-time, it's better than any Twitter SUL :) - Nir Ben Yona

Harscoat: I don't disagree a bit. Ron: good point about people not seeking out meritocracies. It does pollute the community, though, and people do figure that out eventually. If anything Facebook went the other way by limiting EVERYONE to 5,000. That brings celebrities down to everyone else's level, which builds good feelings and keeps marketers out. - Robert Scoble

It seems like the tech celebrity all seems to treat these systems the same, as places where they can acquire a mass following. I view myself as an average everday user of these systems, and view all three differently. And as they evolve, they all have different and divergent uses for me. It's not apples to apples... (also, tiring of SUL) - Bill Kinney

Jim: It's worth far more than that. Mashable is close to 1 million followers. The account tweets about 15-20 times per day, most back to their own site. That network size is worth millions. TC isn't far behind, and is already saying Twitter is about 10% of their traffic. Jason's semi-serious offer was probably high at the time, but I think a spot on that list now over 12 months is worth easily a million bucks to a brand or power-blog. - Shéa Bennett

Bill: yup. Today I was talking with Alexander. He says that people will continue seeking out "smaller" spaces. My wife likes Facebook better than FriendFeed or Twitter for that reason: she feels it's the place where she can talk with just her circle of friends. - Robert Scoble

tidbit of info: spoke to someone last night (who shall remain nameless) that said they went up by >10k followers per day when they were put on the SUL. They still consider that their real follower numbers are closer to their organic growth rate. - Bill Sanders

I hope all the big players move to FF soon so I can stop visiting twitter.com altogether. - Mark

I mean, $1/user that you can hit 15-20 times per day, 365 days a year, and if they unfollow, you're going to get another 40-50,000/week because you're on the SUL? I cannot believe Twitter doesn't monetize this feature. - Shéa Bennett

Shea: I think you are probably right - the numbers are insane and the SUL system is totally corrupt. - Jim Connolly

Robert, saying that people like me "can't build a following on Friendfeed" is silly. There are only so many networks that you can put time into. For whatever reason, I've chosen Twitter. You've chosen FriendFeed. The fact that I have 10,000 followers on FriendFeed is good news, given that I don't spend time here. Heck, I had 5,000 on Twitter when I started paying attention and using the service. - Tim O'Reilly

Thanks for coming Tim, do you agree with Robert that your SUL status is a "gift" and one in which makes it difficult for you to report on twitter honestly? - Mark

And for what it's worth, the SUL isn't very useful except for bragging rights. I had about 60K twitter followers when I went on the SUL; my peak click through-rate has perhaps doubled now that I have 10 times as many. Organic followers are what matters, except, as I say, for the media credibility that you get from people who don't know any better. - Tim O'Reilly

After all, the SUL is giving you lots of clicks, and clicks = page views and page views = dollars? - Mark

Tim: this post isn't only about you. But you must admit that you had fewer followers on Twitter than I did before you got added to the Suggested User List. You are getting gifted hundreds of thousands of followers per month. They aren't engaged. They won't do what you ask them to. Have you studied the hit rates the things you retweet are getting before and after getting on teh SUL? - Robert Scoble

Tim: You deserve to be on the SUL, but many of your SUL buddies don't. It really stinks, the way some of those names were added, and people like Leo Laporte and Scoble were blanked. - Jim Connolly

Totally, I only open up my facebook to those I have established relationship with - my choice to do so. I publish and share things of a more intimate nature there that I won't share on other services where my profile is more public. Facebook works quite well for that. I almost laugh at those that say that facebook has to match what twitter is doing or face extinction (and I've heard various arguments to that effect), that the "walled garden" will be their downfall eventually. I don't agree. - Bill Kinney

Mark - being on the Twitter SUL has absolutely no influence on what I do or do not report about Twitter. - Tim O'Reilly

Ahh, I see you have studied the hit rates and your observations match mine. These aren't "real" followers and they aren't engaged. Twitter did that to remove people they don't like from the top of the leaderboards (like Calacanis, Laporte, and me). - Robert Scoble

Thanks, Tim x - Mark

Is this about numbers (i.e. ratings and money) or is this about engagement? - SawyerTraining, Inc.

Incidentally, was iJustine removed from the SUL for something she said? Just wondering. I'd be interested to see if somebody on that list could be very critical about Twitter and stay on it. - Shéa Bennett

Tim is unsurprisingly savvy on the matter: "my peak click through-rate has perhaps doubled now that I have 10 times as many. Organic followers are what matters, except, as I say, for the media credibility that you get from people who don't know any better." In other words, organic followers are worth 10x more clicks/$$ than SUL followers. - Daniel J. Pritchett

Robert, did you recently share a Whisky with @Ev? What are the twitter bosses saying about the SUL and yoru complaints? - Mark

Tim: how do we know that, though? If you paid me hundreds of thousands of dollars per year I would need to disclose that to my audience and it would be very tough not to be influenced by that money you're paying me. Twitter is paying you a huge sum of money in followers and yet you say it has no influence on you. - Robert Scoble

Mark: I didn't bring it up with @ev (other than to make a small joke that he was building his own celebrities with the SUL, which he nervously smiled at). Why? Because I'd rather have these discussions out in public where you can see them and know that I'm not playing "footsie" with Twitter to get onto the list. - Robert Scoble

That's just like the Robert we have known for a long time... - Amit Nangare

Sure it changes Tim's experience of the service and (at the least) doubles his direct financial rewards from the service but he's presumably not working on a word of mouth contract with them. The only way to be *completely* sure there's no conflict of interest would be for oreilly.com to block/redirect all direct or indirect clickthroughs from Twitter and I'm sure we can all agree that's not feasible. - Daniel J. Pritchett

If this is about engagement consider that for me most of my engagement is "downstream" with my followers (who are few but important to me) rather than "upstream" where I look for trends, leads, and insights. I only interact upstream on rare occasions when I feel I might have something to add (and this may not be one of those times). - SawyerTraining, Inc.

Tim: It is impossible for you to be totally unbiased regarding Twitter, surely? - Jim Connolly

I like to think that after Robert had that whisky from Ev, his life spiralled out of control, a bit like something in Michael Douglas' The Game. Three days disappeared in a blur, and when he woke up, the only working login he had left was on Plurk. ;) - Shéa Bennett

It's impossible for any business to be completely unbiased regarding media outlets that cover/enable them, Jim. The best we can hope for is full disclosure, published conduct guidelines, and ombudsmen. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM

Mark: also that wasn't an appropriate time socially. His wife was there, it wasn't an on the record type event, and it's not nice to be a jerk on a Saturday night. - Robert Scoble

Well I suppose twitter sends money to the SUL via followers, how is it it any different than Dell sending money to you via free laptops? - Mark

Daniel: We are talking about a 6 figure 'gift' from a company, to a group of people who write about that company. This is a really big deal. - Jim Connolly

@Shéa Bennett: Ijustine - man did that get old fast. That's what happens after 100 episodes of the same "yeah, yeah, you can ask ij" - Asgeir

Fair point, Rob x - Mark

Daniel: it's pretty hard to figure out that people are on the SUL. You have to have a new account and look every few days. Some people are building tracking systems to watch who is added and who is taken off (iJustine was on for a while but isn't anymore and she now is losing followers, if you watch the charts). Disclosure? People who are on this list don't see it as a gift. - Robert Scoble

It's simply a matter of scale, Jim. There is no realistic way for Tim to remain completely objective aside from eschewing Twitter altogether. As long as he is above board re: his dealings with Twitter that's really all that anyone can expect of him. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM

Mark: if I take gifts I disclose it. I'd rather have the followers the SUL gives someone than a free laptop. A laptop is only worth $2,000. Getting on the SUL is worth many many more times that. - Robert Scoble

when i said "you", i didnt mean any of you in particular with the laptops - Mark

"you" just sounds better than "one" - how english of me - Mark

Good point, Robert. Perhaps Twitter should make it super obvious that people are on the SUL. It *would* be nice if text from SUL tweeters was visually distinguishable from regular tweeters so that we could know to (not) pay attention to it as per our preferences. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM

One respectfully disagrees :) - Ian Betteridge

Regarding iJustine, I'm guessing she was pulled from the SUL early May? Check the chart: http://twittercounter.com/compare... If that date correlates, that probably says all we need to know about the benefits. - Shéa Bennett

Robert - do you think all Twitter-related content published by SULers should include a boilerplate disclaimer such as "BTW I get zillions of clicks through Twitter's preferential treatment" at the top of every story? - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM

Daniel: at Steve Broback's Twitter Conference the Twitter employees were visibly uncomfortable talking about the SUL. It's interesting that they added a "verified" icon to my account but they aren't identifying who is on the SUL. - Robert Scoble

Whoa, Shéa - Mark

It was cool of Tim to 'almost' talk about the SUL here. The guy's a tech legend and is there on merit - I just wish the list was balanced so others who equally deserve a slot had one. - Jim Connolly

Daniel: yes. If the New York Times journalists were receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company they cover, wouldn't you expect them to disclose that? - Robert Scoble

I won't argue with you there at all, Robert. I would be happy seeing disclaimers and graphics denoting SUL status. I was thinking the problem was more Twitter's than Tim's but I suppose it's both. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM

That graphic blew my mind, Shea. Thanks! - Daniel J. Pritchett

how about twitter sul = 300.000+$/month want it? buy it. full disclosure=? - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

Are most professional journalists doing online content paid based on page views? - Mark

or is it pay per article? - Mark

Jim: I wish the list was a meritocracy and based on your actual usage and value you add to Twitter. Personally I wish we had a list a lot more like wefollow.com or alltop.com than what Twitter came up with. Mark: yes. - Robert Scoble

Robert: EXACTLY! - Jim Connolly

Mark: Journalism companies get paid by 1000 page views. That's called CPM. They then usually pay their reporters per article, or per word, or they are salaried. - Robert Scoble

One reason is FriendFeed lacks a way of linking to other users in a post. On Twitter you can @timoreilly or @TechCrunch and I'd click on them and see if they are worth following. Since you can't do that on FriendFeed I don't bother to look to see if they are worth following. - ChiliMac

Jim: I find it insulting that Oprah was added to the Suggested User List after doing only a dozen or so entries on Twitter. How did they know she would be a good Twitterer after only that few? How insulting is that to all the other people who put tons more work into the system? - Robert Scoble

I don't think this SUL thing is about numbers, it's about ego and personality. Can you live without expressing your personal believes and have PR people do your job or say what you have to say out loud on public and give up the courtesy and goodies. Why is it about personality? Example: When Scoble came to visit my country (Israel) everyone could have a talk with him directly without... more... - Nir Ben Yona

ChiliMac: funny, I found you just fine and subscribed to you here. It's a different way, though. Here you put full URLs into the message. Like "hey, everyone, follow ChiliMac here: http://friendfeed.com/chilimac " - Robert Scoble

Robert: If being on the list has negligible value as you proposed (and Tim essentially confirmed) in terms of click-throughs, are we perhaps being overly concerned with its 'benefits'? If Tim's network has gone x10 and his clicks are x2, it's likely that his gain is from a lot of people who followed him organically (i.e., normal network growth). - Shéa Bennett

Robert: The Oprah situation took the SUL issue and exposed it for what it is; a 'buddy list.' Not based on merit or value. I only heard of Twitter because of you and Leo. There are hundreds of thousands of early users who only discovered Twitter off you and Leo's mentions. How soon they forget! - Jim Connolly

Shea: perhaps we are overly concerned. But I notice that people don't often remove themselves from this list, and even when they do (like in Jay Rosen's case) it's only after really thinking through the ethical responsibility of taking a huge gift from a corporation that they potentially cover. - Robert Scoble

Jim: exactly. I really hate it when companies love you when they are getting started because they need a few evangelistic users (ICQ started with only 40 users, so that's all you really need) but then they stab you in the back once they don't need you anymore. That's why more than a few bloggers now ask for stock or fees to cover their companies. Me? I will continue being a sucker for an entrepreneur with a great product or service. - Robert Scoble

I'd prefer an tiny audience that listened and commented, than a huge audience that ignored me - Mark Essel

value is the way and not arbitrary will from kings (ev and biz eg)... so this thread opens one's eyes to the not so fair and ego driven aspect of twitter as a cy ( I still remember @ev with the Trump daughter in front of the white house ;) - SUL = buddy list of @ev and @biz... liked Jim suggestion - Harscoat

I agree about Oprah but Twitter wants names on there - people that the 180 million Facebook users they don't have on Twitter right now will recognise. Everybody knows Oprah. It isn't about being a 'good Twitterer' (which is of course a relative term - one man's P. Diddy is another man's Jack Schofield) - it's about new users going, "Hey, I know this person." and that validates the... more... - Shéa Bennett

I wish Twitter wold make it easier to connect with people that has same interests. wefollow is on the right track, but people add themselves to categories they don't belong in. The one with most follower under #photo has, as far as I can tell, never written anything about photos, or photo related news - Asgeir

Engagement has value, but I understand most folks just like to read. I'm fine with that but engagement helps me improve my perspective while blogging - Mark Essel

social networks is about money not about us or social or socialism;) which brings me back to the point: the sul list is pure advertising and should be treated as that. Put a logo next to it: Advertisement: we recommend these ppl - done. 'We' will find each other anyways and the big old economy corps will always bully Robert or Leo out of their way:( - Alex 'BuckyBit' Covic

there are the "cooperators" and "free riders/defectors" in life (in evo psy terms) - Robert is a cooperator (interested in the overall value for the group rather than his own personal interest)! pointing at entrepreneurs with great product and services for the community. Do not change - Harscoat

Twitter is really just a broadcast medium, you can be influential and be on the SUL, but it's more likely you just have a bunch of people checking out the service once and never looking again. FF allows you to build value and relationships around conversations. Take this very thread. Which is more monetizable in the long run? I think twitter will just become another protocol, FF provides a far more valuable service. But that's just my opinion really, and it all depends on how YOU define "useful" - John

I try to participate, but I have anywhere from 60 to 80 hours of work a week, and adding Twitter and FF to the list increased my hours. So I can't always participate even though I want to. - RobinDotNet

Robert, I'm intrigued by your success and focus on this subject. I wonder, how do you think a group fairs compared to a single personality? At the moment, you're the king of social media in my opinion because of your engagement. The attention you command is ten fold the value of Ashton's million plus drive-by fans. But, could 10 top-notch social folks stuck to a brand (like Mashable's core Twitter brand) out-perform a single guy's personal touch? [Sorry, I did go a bit OT] - Jason Nunnelley

The truth is the SUL list on Twitter falsely inflates everyone numbers who are on it, I suspect if Tim O'Reilly wasn't on the list his numbers percentage wise would be just about the same whether we are talking Twitter or FF. I also think that since FF doesn't have an auto follow method, like twitter, their is more thought put into who someone is going to follow. - Kim Landwehr

Kim: That's true, but it's not just a question of auto-follow. One, Facebook doesn't allow one-way following - you have to be 'friends'. Two, for most people, letting somebody friend them on FB is a fairly big deal as that person then has access to a lot of your life (personal details, photos, etc - it AMAZES me how many people put their cellphone number on Facebook, and then just... more... - Shéa Bennett

I agree SUL is billboard advertising. Essel-i support that 'just like to read' is fine for some. That's how I participate with Wikipedia and I can see some on twitter will simply be there looking for new eddies in the river of news. FriendFeed and Facebook lead for those of us wanting greater depth: No matter if you are a platform or a "personality" how is quality engagement promoted... more... - Lane Rapp

Jason: I am often at a disadvantage competing against brands with many people employed like TechCrunch and Mashable. What was interesting was that I (and others like Leo Laporte, Calacanis, Kawasaki, et al) was able to compete before the SUL propelled them above me and into a different league. At least on Twitter. Everywhere else I'm still kicking their behinds. Which is worth studying,... more... - Robert Scoble

I am not on the Twitter SUL. I have 15,000 on Twitter and 2,700 on FF. Could it be that there are fewer peeps on FF? - Beth Kanter

Beth: that's a pretty common ratio, but doesn't match anyone's who is on the SUL. But, you miss my point. On Facebook (which has far far far more people than Twitter) TechCrunch has far fewer fans than I do but on Twitter he has far more, all artificially gained. If TechCrunch were smart he'd have those people also follow his fan page on Facebook. - Robert Scoble

But you bring up an interesting point, Beth, for another thread. Why aren't your followers good followers of yours? I imagine you've told them about friendfeed. Why don't your followers listen to you? I thought it was just me. - Robert Scoble

I just don't use facebook at all like i do FriendFeed or Twitter. - Geoff Schultz

What about the shear time to keep up with the topics of the day? For me twitter is all about reading quick short headlines, getting a pulse on what's going on, and then making a decision on what topics are important enough to engage deeper on. FF, FC, blogs, etc are the place to go deeper into the conversation. If you buy off on that, then the math comes into play,Twitter is the grand... more... - Robert Wilkins

Oprah, by the way, has 1,619,000 on Twitter and 760,000 on Facebook. I wonder how many followers Oprah was gifted by being on the recommended follower list, but you can see why Twitter is doing this. The higher Oprah's numbers are on Twitter the cooler Twitter seems and the more hype it gets and the more celebrities want to chase Oprah, even if they are for fake followers who don't mean that much. Brilliant strategy on Twitter's part. - Robert Scoble

yea, oprah=cool. you toting your camera maybe not so much to mainstream, glad to see the new hulk photo ;-) - Lane Rapp

Lane: Oprah is cool? Have you seen her Tweets? Not cool at all. - Robert Scoble

I have very different uses for each: Twitter, Facebook, FriendFeed... - Kelly A Nelson

Robert, Oprah's tweets are indeed superficial. Totally not engaged. She would do well to use twitter to engage both her audience and her causes between seasons. My joke was framed sarcastically enuff, but was to support your entire discussion here, that the SUL is rigged for twitter and celeb marketing. - Lane Rapp

Meh. all these celebs taking twitter away from us geeks :( its ours :( - Mark

Ellen Degeneres does a good job in my opinion - Lane Rapp

Mark, give twitter to the masses, sometimes I get the feeling FF wants to remain a niche. I can't say I would be disappointed as long as the lights stay on. We can contribute like we do on NPR. - Lane Rapp

Lane: they said that about Twitter two years ago. The thing is here that FriendFeed has nooks and crannies that can let us hide from the masses a lot better than we can hide on Twitter. - Robert Scoble

Beth, I think the difference between Twitter and FF is two fold, compounded and a big indicator as to why Robert may fair so much better here and FB. Twitter simplifies the competition (if there is such a thing, though people perceive it's real, so it is). It's all about followers and extremely competitive to gain them. FriendFeed is culturally different, and conversational. This kind... more... - Jason Nunnelley

Yes we can hide away in little corners, and even go private rooms if we want a little insider chat. Friendfeed is our underground movement! - Mark

Something Robert has done that works best in more conversational SM is brand himself as an all around cool guy. He's not "Robert Scoble the tech guru." Mashable and Techcrunch are very limited in their scope, so readers are likely to read their blip about their preferred technology and move on. Robert engages his readers on a multitude of topics, much more conversational. He'll actually... more... - Jason Nunnelley

Robert, thanks I'll do my part to welcome the masses while I learn more about the nooks and crannies. I noticed how all the FF user help rooms are active, but the Facebook user groups have limited discussion. - Lane Rapp

Lane (WARNING: shameless promotion) I'd be happy to host more conversations in newb regarding Facebook if you like, post tutorials, videos, etc. Are you more often a question source or an answer source? <edit> Meaning, I'd like to have someone else post help there if I start pushing my readers to the group. - Jason Nunnelley

Anyone heard any news about new friendfeed features? Sure would be cool to be able to post images and things in the discussion thread. - Mark

I hate to hit and run, but 90% of the people I follow I follow because I've seen them say interesting things and participate here. - Steve Lowe

Steve, why is that Hit and Run? - Jason Nunnelley

Is the FriendFeed back-end on Scala already? :) - The Pageman

Jason, I'd like that and think the rural, the elder, the poor, the disabled, and much of africa who get better high speed net access will as well. As fast as these platforms are growing the users have to help out with the concierge desk. I've got questions and I'm still newb enuff to answer some with empathy - Lane Rapp

Lower counts on friendfeed IMHO is due to the fact FF lacks the sexyness of Facebook. The FF User Interface is cleaner, simpler but lacks eye candy, of the FB I do think UI is better than Twitter, but lacks the 3rd party apps which promote usage. The 2 ff aps on the iPhone are #horriblizers ( original word from @lovinkat) - derikp

If more people used clients that don't require following people to group them and/or see their tweets, the followers would n't be half as relevant on Twitter. I converse with lots of people I don't follow on facebook and FriendFeed. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Robert, the bottom line is people follow people for three reasons: content, content and content. The question is what difference does the SUL on Twitter make if most people just ignore boring content and move on? - Jason Nunnelley

My mom joined Twitter today (that tells me its not Myspace, so much for my original thesis) but she didn't necessarily want to follow this suggested list, but from talking to her, it sounded like it was "fostered" onto her. I don't know what the steps look like since I joined a long time ago, but it sounds like for a newbie you are pretty much going to auto follow these people - Stephen Pickering

I have more friends/followers on Friendfeed than I do on any other site - Joe Dawson

the followers picked up from SUL are folks who are getting started -- it's like the old PCH magazine subs: renewals and engagemt were horrible but the audience inflation paid back in ad dollars. The social web is about "finding" an audience, just like the old days before you could use web clout to open the spigot and drive a massive audience. The SUL is a Web 1.0 artifact, like cutting... more... - Dan McCarthy from BuddyFeed

Robert, et al: There was some important information shared in this thread yesterday, and I've put a lot of it together in a post for Twittercism, focusing on comparisons between the follower counts of Tim, Robert and iJustine. Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers. http://twittercism.com/suggest... - Shéa Bennett

isn't 10000 followers on friendfeed just about the same percentage of the community as 600000 on twitter? - Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)

Stephen, you have to unclick the people you don't want to follow in the SUL. - Jason Nunnelley

Great thread. Thanks Robert. - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed

Thanks for sharing - great info Robert!! - Laurie DesAutels

If what you say is true, then the terms need to be changed. As for them not transferring to any other social network, why is that even necessary? There's a great study out there that states 90% of your network will be lurkers anyway. You'll never know that they exist, however, it's still comforting to know they're there.... - Mike Shields

Robert: Now that you mention it, I will tell them about FriendFeed. - Beth Kanter

Robert: I hate it when there's a "food fight" over ideas. Please remember that Twitter is still trying to find a business model. These $100,000 gifts are basically Calacanis "Bucks"... you can't actually buy anything with them except the promise of VC investment. VC investment is simply mortgaging your future. - davem51

Was it wrong with Radio from UserLand had some suggested feeds to follow? No. It was a smart business idea and Adam Curry invested to get more readers. Smart attempt to save Userland from failing. - davem51

I met Tim O'Reilly in 1990 working the O'Reilly booth at Usenix. It was one of the most interesting conversations I have ever had at a conference... Tim knows how to present idea but more importantly he has the biggest ears in tech. He's got an Open Source Mind. - davem51

am i on twittr? - j edmonds

http://current.com/hp-reveal/ has a Twitter site redisplaying Tweets from around the web. - Robert Scoble

41 more comments

I think press conferences continue to shift and morph due to real time web. They should have opened a friendfeed room. But this is the trend that Building43 is trying to push and explain to other businesses, so it's important that HP is using it. - Robert Scoble

he just through his phone. Lol - Ron Hudson

Ron: I'm sitting in the front row, you might see me on TV! :-) - Robert Scoble

This all feels like "NO NO NO you still need to print stuff we PROMISE!!" YOU NEED THIS!! - Ron Hudson

Ron: there are plenty of things I still need to print out. Airplane tickets. Legal documents. Etc. - Robert Scoble

Twitter has a huge advantage over FriendFeed. If you have a huge ego, you can get onto the HP Reveal screen with Twitter, but not with FriendFeed. - Robert Scoble

Its BS. They're only showing empty praise for the product. Its not an honest representation. - Martin Johnson

Martin: that's why I'd rather just have a friendfeed room. - Robert Scoble

Ok, but do you want to learn to navigate that little screen? I'd rather have a standard wireless api that all my cell apps could talk to. - Ron Hudson

Airplane Tickets can and should be digital. - Jason E. Rist

I don't even remember the time when I had a printed airplane ticket. - eszpee

I already know how to use a PC, or any number of apps on my phone ie Google maps/pageonce. I just want to click "send to printer" and be done. I don't want a touch screen, I just want it to print. - Ron Hudson

haha, they do show some "negative" comments in red. - Ron Hudson

Paper is static, its a snapshot, its not LIVE. Once I print something it doesn't change, I'm stuck with old info. Bringing the web to paper is just backwards. - Martin Johnson

Martin: there are lots of things we want snapshots of. Photos, maps, legal documents, coupons, tickets. - Robert Scoble

We do not even have a printer at our house. - Ron Hudson

I needed to print temp car registration today. Saved pdf and emailed to work. Can you imagine trying to navigate Penndot website on that little screen? - Ron Hudson

I haven't printed a map in years. Anyone notice the explosion of GPS nav devices in cars and phones? A printed map can't re-route you around construction or traffic. I haven't printed a ticket of any kind in years, kiosks at the theater/airport handle that using my id/credit card. Photos? I can share those instantly with my entire family via the web. Printed photos fade. I guess you have a point on legal documents, though I'm guessing if I'm printing out a contract I can be troubled to boot my laptop. - Martin Johnson

The few documents that we "need" to print are from companies that would never do integration with this. - Ron Hudson

Haven't owned a printer for 7 years - the 2-3 times a year I need a print I simply stop by the library. - PXLated

I have a printer, because Apple offered me one via their Education program. But I don't use it, I don't print stuff anymore. In two years, they'll pay me to own a printer :) - Jérôme Flipo

PXLated: that's interesting. I've only used a printer a few times a year lately. Even when I want photo prints I usually just have those delivered instead of finding the time to print them out. - Robert Scoble

Wouldn't mind having a little, portable usb photo printer but that's about it. - PXLated

That would be for proofing in the field or prints to give models, not for finals though - PXLated

They should be announcing a RedBox type business model. Put simple wireless printer kiosk everywhere. Let me email and print when I get there. Let me print that google map at McDonalds from my mobile gmaps app. - Ron Hudson

they just put my tweet up! lol - Ron Hudson

A web connected printer? Whoopdeedoo... - Bill Kinney

So the answer is "No" but you could code that app if you like Scoble. - Ron Hudson

Ron: yeah, that's interesting that they didn't think about making it order its own ink. - Robert Scoble

Ron: I am lazy. :-) - Robert Scoble

haha I'm sure all the iPone devs are going to flock to this thing and they'll code it for us ;) - Ron Hudson

Ask him what is the incentive for developers to write apps for this thing since they can't sell them. - Ron Hudson

LOL I love you Scoble! - Ron Hudson

Ron: I asked your question. Like that? :-) - Robert Scoble

Yeah! I needed so much to print all #IranElection tweets. From TweetDeck iPhone, in real-time :D - Jérôme Flipo

ya! I just watched it! Seems like they hemhawed around a bit - Ron Hudson

Ron: yeah, but I can see their point. - Robert Scoble

The point is that companies will employ developers to do apps. They are not going to attract freelance developers with this. The market is too small. - Ron Hudson

They implied that it was going to generate an exciting developer community like other open api, but thats not realistic. Sorry to be such a downer on this product. - Ron Hudson

I like that you intoduced the q as "Question from FriendFeed: Ron Hudson asks...". Why should twitter get all the brand recognition? - Bruce Lewis from fftogo

Robert Scoble, if you prefer FriendFeed to Twitter. You should have a look at plurk.com a social site gem that is way under the radar. You need about 20 friends to start out to give it a real trial. - Brent R Jones

Hey Robert, thx for coming today! I agree that the whole new "connected printer" idea is useful in different ways.. it just depends on the user and what makes them comfortable. For example, I never print directions, but I know a lot of people who do. This also seems like a good option for less tech-savvy folks who benefit from simplicity. I like the idea of customizing your experience on ANY platform, printers or otherwise. - Sarah Lane