Shivanand Velmurugan - Likes

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Lots of Google stuff this week. My fave four: 1. Chrome OS released as open-source. 2. US caselaw added to Google Scholar. 3. Real-time translation as you type at translate.google.com, plus romanization and text-to-speech. 4. Auto-captions (speech recognition) on YouTube and auto-timing (upload video transcript, get accurate time code alignment).

November 21 - Comment - Like - Share

Gökmen Karasu, 'Like' robot (frɐnc), Elmer Thomas and 27 other people liked this

Links: 1. Chromium OS: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009... 2. US caselaw: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009... 3. As-you-type translation: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009... 4. Auto-captions & Auto-timing: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009... - Matt Cutts

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And a bonus video: http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009... More detailed Google Earth models based on StreetView imagery. - Matt Cutts

I love the new Real-time translation. I found less usefull the new adsense panel layout (you know.. now i have to wear glasses to check the old things.. but it's only a css issue, so...). :) - Seo (ignobile) Guru

I think it would be nice of Google Translate offered an automatic reverse translation. Also, if I type in my language and get something translated into a language I don't speak, what good is the text to speech version to me? I can't understand it. Am I supposed to record it and post the sound file somewhere? - SuezanneC Baskerville

If you translate something into a language you don't speak, it might be a helpful aid for learning to speak a new language. I can read and understand some italian, and more if I hear it, but what I know when reading it isn't the same as what I know when I hear it, since I can't associate the way it sounds with how it is spelled at the same time. This might help me with that. - April Russo (app103)

didn't know about text to speech thanks for letting us know, real time translation is good and is like the translate page/site - ffcode

l0ckergn0me

I wish I knew someone at LEGO. I've sold at least five AT-ATs with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch...

November 21 from Ping.fm - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan, Fee501st, ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ and Jesse Stay liked this

I added it to my Amazon wishlist thanks to you - Jesse Stay

That's awesome! On my Christmas List now! - Shivanand Velmurugan from Alert Thingy

Thomas Hawk to Thomas's feed, DeleteMe Uncensored

Just got an email from Canon, my 135 f/2 is on the way. $315 charge for the same repair for the fourth time. Canon's service sucks.

November 2 - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan, Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ, Lars Clausen and Kenton liked this

Canon Sucks!!! =P - Travis Koger

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You're getting me worried that's supposed to be my next lens. And up yours, Travis! - kinobe

Nikon sucks! Canon FTW!!! - tabbr

I love the lens, I use it all the time. Maybe I just got a lemon. - Thomas Hawk

I thought they told you they'll repair it for free? - Ivan Makarov

$315 gets you a lot of Holgas, Thomas. - Ivan Makarov

They did say they'd repair it for free and the 2 days later sent me another email saying that they were going to charge me after all. Sucks. Got my hopes up and made me happy and then smashed them. - Thomas Hawk

well that sucks either way man. this photography thing is almost as expensive as parenthood thing. - Ivan Makarov

Hawk, you're not just taking this laying down are you? Have you run this up the food chain at Canon Customer Service? - Clearlight

Yes I have Clearlight, unfortunately. They refused to budge. They said that there was "impact damage." The time before this they also said "possible impact damage" but I was only charged half as much. I've not dropped this lens though and I'm tired of sending it in for repair every year or so to get the autofocus to work. - Thomas Hawk

And even after telling you that they would affect the repair at no charge? Wow... that is truly horrendous customer service. - Clearlight

they said that they changed their mind after they examined it closer. - Thomas Hawk

Still, Thomas, I think you should pursue legal action. Or at least put presssure on them through the BBB. First a legal binding verbal contract saying it's no cost, then change their mind because of "possible" impact damage ... all sounds a bit shaky. Demand proof from Canon that the problem can only be cause by impact damage. If they can't then they are fleecing you, - Rene Wirtz

I sent in a camera to Canon service for repair about 1 year ago. They said they would repair it at no charge, and they did, but they included a clause like this in the letter: "Based on our initial examination, we will start the necessary repairs at no charge to you... Please note that in the unlikely event that any additional internal damage is found due to liquid/water, sand,... more... - tabbr

Multi-billion dollar, multinational corporations tend to cover their ass, Rene. - tabbr

@tabbr: I know, but sometimes they also use bully mentality. And they may respond to outside pressure. - Rene Wirtz

I think it's pretty clear you got a lemon. If I were you I would auction it off and buy a new one. You could easily get $850 for it. - tabbr

@kinobe, someone had to bite :). Nikon is my preference but to tell the truth I have never used a proper Canon so I am just talking shit anyhow. - Travis Koger from iPhone

@Travis all good, give shit take shit. ;) - kinobe

there was no disclaimer like that on my estimate tabbr. It was out of warranty. I think that disclaimer is just for things that are in warranty. I just thought that since they could see from the history of the lens that it was it's 4th time in for the same problem that they might cut me some slack. Apparently not. I was pleased to get the initial email telling me that they'd repair it without charge and then very disappointed to get another one three days latter charging me over $300. - Thomas Hawk

Canon should stand by their products better. Especially for good customers. I've spent thousands of dollars on Canon gear over the past several years. - Thomas Hawk

I'll be sure never to purchase Canon products, adding to my ever growing list of companies not to do business with. :( - Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ

You are a "power user" Thomas, that's why you should see about a legal course. You are not a Joe Blow who 3 years ago, on a whim, bought a body and a lense and since has taken 400 pictures with it. - Rene Wirtz

Thomas Hawk to Thomas's feed, DeleteMe Uncensored

Soon to be banned by flickr? on Flickr - Photo Sharing! - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

November 2 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan and Kenton liked this

"I've been shown the yellow card by flickr and may well be banned from the site. What heinous crime have I committed to cause this? I put a copyright notice in the description of all my images. For a number of years now I have been using the following as my copyright notice: “(c) Ian M Butterfield / www.imb.biz”. Initially this was used just as a watermark but that has not stopped people from stealing my images. So some time back I decided to spell it out in detail in the description field. Here is the wording I have used: PLEASE NOTE: This photograph is (c) Ian M Butterfield / www.imb.biz. All rights are reserved. No use is permitted (including non-commercial use) without prior permission. The inclusion of the link to my website is what flickr are objecting to. They consider this to be in breach of the rules concerning commercial use. How this is in breach of the flickr rules I am not sure. I have been informed by flickr that having the link in my profile page is ok but not under each image. Where does it say that in the terms and conditions?" - Thomas Hawk from Bookmarklet

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WTF? - Tyson Key

Flickr is completely out of control. NIPSAing somebody for their copyright logo? So many people that I know include a link to their blog or site on their photos. So many great photographers do this. Why shouldn't you be allowed to link back to your site? Totally unreasonable on Flickr's part. Ian's also posted a thread on this in the help forum (where I'm still banned and have been for months). - Thomas Hawk

Zack Shepherd from Flickr: "Having a link to contact you 'If you wish to use any of my photographs' is still promoting and seems at least like a way to get around the no links rule and still put some contact info under the photo." http://www.flickr.com/help... - Thomas Hawk

I'm still annoyed that they decided to NIPSA my account, over a year ago, and haven't reversed it, despite putting in 3 review requests. Still, I'm glad that they didn't purge my account, given that I rarely visit Flickr, these days... - Tyson Key

Oh geez... seriously? Adding a link to flickrmail you is now "promotion"? Give me a break. - Stephanie Keating

Did they NIPSA your account Tyson? Did they tell you why? - Thomas Hawk

"Any other commercial use of Flickr, Flickr technologies (including APIs, FlickrMail, etc), or Flickr accounts must be approved by Flickr." http://www.flickr.com/guideli... - tabbr

I think that it was NIPSA'd since I created it back in 2006, although they've never told me why, Thomas. :( - Tyson Key

"If your account is also "NIPSA", you may be one of the people caught up in the transition between the old system of moderation (public, pending, private accounts etc) and the new way (safety level/content type filters). It's fairly likely that if your account is NIPSA, it's because your account was NIPSA pre-transition, and that it may require a review by staff. You can request a... more... - tabbr

Your account hardly seems offensive Tyson. I'm surprised that they NIPSAd you. My own account was entirely NIPSA'd, thousands of photos for many months. - Thomas Hawk

Indeed, and I never enabled the NIPSA flag on my account. (After all, why would I want to hide my content in a ghetto, from the rest of the Flickr content base? I'm sure that you'll agree with that sentiment, too)... - Tyson Key

I've pretty much given up on Flickr though, thanks to the 200 visible images for a free account limitation, so other than putting in several review requests (all of which yielded the same result - "safe with NIPSA"), I haven't spent time on the issue. - Tyson Key

Sorry to hear about your account, though. If I was a professional photographer, I'd be insulted that they decided to pull such a trick. - Tyson Key

I can only sympathise with the owner of the other account, although I know that Flickr aren't the only service to have a "silent ban" policy (Reddit also comes to mind, from what I've heard)... - Tyson Key

Yeah my pro account is due tomorrow and I have decided not to renew, as well I won't be renewing my wife's account either. I have started testing the waters with SmugMug and will like start a membership with them next week. I think flickr's day has come and they are now doing their best to kill their user base and I am getting out before they kill my account for some stupid reason. - Travis Koger from iPhone

Still, I'm happy with Picasa Web Albums as of late, even though they're not perfect, and have limitations of their own. I was thinking of Flickr Pro at one time, just to remove the 200 images limit, although I don't think they're worthy of the money... - Tyson Key

(After all, I didn't use Flickr that often, and wouldn't morally want to pay for a service that penalised users for unexplained reasons, and was more than happy to do so). - Tyson Key

My flickr pro account expires in 6 days, and I will not be renewing because of their evil ways. - tabbr

Jesse Stay

Maybe it's just my perception, but I think the Google and former Google employees I'm following on FriendFeed use the service much, much more than that of Twitter and Facebook employees (with the exception of FriendFeed employees, which themselves are mostly former Google employees). Not sure what that means though. I'd love to see some stats.

October 31 - Comment - Like - Share

Elliott Ng, Anne Bouey and Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

Meaning that Twitter and Facebook employees don't use Friendfeed? I would assume they use their own services. - Louis Gray

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My curiosity is in the fact that FriendFeed isn't owned by Google - do Google employees just have more time on their hands? - Jesse Stay

Or, on the side of Google, are Google employees just more likely to try out more than their own services? - Jesse Stay

No. When FriendFeed started, it was first used by friends and family of the team, and many of the friends who were likely to try it were current or former Googlers. Thus, much of the discussion was about Google and it was a natural fit. I remember that the open discussions around Google at the end of 2007 when it was much more mysterious to me was one of the major drawing points for me to the service. - Louis Gray

Louis, ah, interesting - that would make sense. - Jesse Stay

READ THIS POST! http://blog.louisgray.com/2008... :) (This is just a good example) - Louis Gray

Will do boss - not sure we even knew each other when that was written - funny how time flies :-) - Jesse Stay

Aw memories. http://friendfeed.com/louisgr... (This was an epic discussion - miss these!!!) - Louis Gray

Somehow I have faint memories of that discussion. Maybe I did know you at the time. - Jesse Stay

Anyway, back to coding... - Jesse Stay

I need my nose hairs plucked - Jesse Stay

Jesse Stay

It's 1am and I want to code. Hmmm...sleep or code? I think I know which one.

October 31 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

Code. Sleep is a waste of time and unproductive. - Louis Gray

As you can see I'm still awake :-) - Jesse Stay

Code! That's the only answer to that question at any time! - Shivanand Velmurugan from Alert Thingy

Paul Buchheit

ooc - low-level / high-level goodness - http://ooc-lang.org/

October 28 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Alberto Bietti, Shivanand Velmurugan, JMaultasch and 57 other people liked this

Looks promising. C++ is too much of a disaster -- we need a real successor to C. "ooc is a modern, object-oriented, functional-ish, high-level, low-level, sexy programming language. it's translated to pure C with a source-to-source compiler. it strives to be powerful, modular, extensible, portable, yet simple and fast." - Paul Buchheit from Bookmarklet

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Meh. I dislike post-fix'd declarations, and given that the assignment operator is frequently used, I think C's decision to make it a single character operator is the correct one. Otherwise, it doesn't seem any better than say, Objective C, D, or any of the other languages vying to be the next C. - Piaw Na

Have you looked at the D language? http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ It's been around for years and near the top of language shootouts in performance. - Ray Cromwell

Pointers? Do we really need pointers? - Gabe

Yes, if you're doing a systems language, you need pointers --- for writing device drivers, if nothing else. - Piaw Na

Based on the sample code, it appears to have a very direct interface to C, which I think is important for a systems language. For most things I'd rather just use Python, but for lower-level, perf-critical stuff, we need something else. D looks like too much, but I haven't tried it. - Paul Buchheit

Type inference, yummy - a main reason why Scala has mad traction these days - Christopher Galtenberg

Start by creating a really lightweight and easy to use development environment. I should be able to teach Jay Rosen to program in it. Back in the 80s there was serious compeititon in this area -- from Borland with Turbo Pascal and on the Mac, from Think Technologies with their C and Pascal systems. The languages aren't the issue, at least not for me. I want to program in C again, but the curve is too steep in all the environments. Give me a Turbo environment and some nice libraries, and lets go! :-) - Dave Winer

Dave: http://tryruby.sophrinix.com <- that kind of easy - Christopher Galtenberg

Piaw Na: For ':=' I've just made a homepage edit to make it very clear. := is decl-assign. Regular assign is '=' as in C/Java/etc. RTFM! ;) - 'n ddrylliog

Piaw Na: As for trying to be the next C... well, no =) The next C is probably C itself, since C hackers are way too picky to be satisfied with anyside above C (in high-level/low-level terms) - 'n ddrylliog

Btw, why is everyone thinking of ooc as a systems language? It can be used as such, but it's not really the goal. Do you all think so because it's compiled? - 'n ddrylliog

I'm thinking of it as a systems language because that's what I want. We already have reasonable options for higher-level stuff, but when writing a database or whatever, we're stuck with C or C++. - Paul Buchheit

Paul Buchheit: Hmm. High-performance implementations of current reasonable high-level languages are still pretty much experimental :/ (unladen swallow, shedskin, etc.) Why sacrifice performance? Many compiled languages have shown that expressivity isn't reserved to "interpreted" languages. =) - 'n ddrylliog

Piaw Na: about ooc being better or worse than Objective-C, D, etc. Well, D is really complex. It gives a *lot* of control, but it makes code less readable imho. As much as you may currently dislike it, the ooc syntax is (for some at least) more readable, so more maintainable, in general simpler, etc. (a lot less trickier than C++, for example. And if you don't see what I'm talking about, you haven't done enough C++) - 'n ddrylliog

Ocaml is pretty expressive, it has a REPL, and it's been in the top of the language shootout benchmarks for years. - Ray Cromwell

How does ooc compare to C#? If I had to write something like a compiler, I'd use C#. - Gabe

The missing dots really bother me. - τorƍue

C++ a disaster? I don't think so, its main problem is the lack of high level straightforward frameworks. IMHO generic programming is a deeper paradigm than OOP, but like functional languages has a slow learning curve, look at the matrix implementations/compiler optimizations in Boost! - Sebastian Wain from iPhone

Sebastian: C++ has lots of significant problems. For example, it's actually 3 languages: precompiler (#define), C++, and templates. The template language is so powerful that you can't even tell if the compiler will halt on a given program, let alone understand the error messages it produces. Just the shear size of the language, manual memory management, things like multiple inheritance, and vast overlapping standard libraries make it hard to program in by giving the progammer an overly large cognitive load. - Gabe

My two biggest gripes: Error messages from templates, specially from STL, can be notoriously hard to track down. And secondly, default implicit conversions can lead to hard to track down bugs. When you have a type system so complex you have to mentally "run the compiler" as you code, something's wrong. - Ray Cromwell

I've been doing nothing but C++ lately. It's not bad, but only because everyone subsets it. The compilers are horrible, but I don't think that's because nobody has an incentive to improve g++'s front-end. - Piaw Na

Ouch. decl-assign is terrible. I hate that. I think C's syntax (e.g., int a = 3; ) is much better than decl- assign. If you want to imitate C, at least make the declarations C-like. Personally, I think language design should be performed so that you can hand-code a compiler (i.e., no lex & yacc). Why? Because hand-coded compilers can much more easily produce human readable error... more... - Piaw Na

I've seen it argued that LL(k) compiler-compilers don't have this fault, because they generate recursive decent parsers that look somewhat like what you'd write by hand, JavaCC certainly has this attribute for example. Although I'm quite fond of the parser-combinator approach now. - Ray Cromwell

Gabe: the issue is: when you need performance you must follow the C++ path. Don't forget http://theory.stanford.edu/~amitp... - Sebastian Wain

What Ray said. yacc uses an LALR parser, and LALR parsers are kind of notorious for producing inscrutable error messages. LL(k) compiler-compilers can generate much more intuitive error messages, and the code they generate often looks like something a human would write. Both JavaCC and ANTLR are good LL(k) compiler-compilers. I believe LL(k) parsers aren't strictly as powerful as LALR... more... - Laurence Gonsalves

On the topic of ooc: the "object [space] method-call()" syntax is the most jarring thing about the syntax for me. I'm surprised that there doesn't seem to be any actual introduction to that syntax on the linked page -- it's just used several times without explanation. Also, I have to say I'm not a fan of conservative garbage collection. - Laurence Gonsalves

Yes, when I hand code parsers, I write them in recursive descent form. The problem with C++ is that it's not easily parseable in that form. And seriously, any language where you can write map<string, string>, but have to write map<string, vector<string> > is seriously messed up. - Piaw Na

+1 to Laurence's comment about conservative GC: that's plain evil. - Piaw Na

Yeah, Piaw only uses progressive GC, and even then he keeps complaining that it's finding ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. - Daniel Dulitz

I believe JavaCC grammar repo has a relatively straightforward C++ grammar implemented, using LL(k) - Ray Cromwell

Piaw Na: You got so much wrong in so few comments that it's actually worrying. Decl-assign is not terrible. It's called type inference, and is used in a lot of modern languages (ML, C#, Scala) to make our lives easier, and limits repeating yourself and it works damn well. Grow up and learn other languages. So no, the goal is not to imitate C. Go use Objective-C/C#/C++/Java/D if you want C-like languages. - 'n ddrylliog

Piaw Na: Second: I have hand-written the ooc 0.3 compiler's parser, and it was a piece of cake, because the syntax is so simple and unambiguous. Having "object[space]field" is a non-issues since declarations are "name: type". And you're mistaken in thinking that the fact you can hand-write a parser for a grammar means that it's simple. It's the other way around. If you can write a LL(K)/LR/PEG grammar, then the syntax is *very* straightforward. And the new ooc compiler (rock) uses a PEG grammar.. - 'n ddrylliog

Conservative Garbage Collector: There are advantages 1) the performance is a lot better than you would expect (and actually faster than plain malloc/free for lots of small objects) 2) there are advantages, e.g. seamless integrations with all the C libs out there. 3) Writing a GC isn't easy, the Boehm has been around for years and is well-tested/optimized, portable, etc. Read the papers please :/ This thread is a showcase of ignorance and arrogance. - 'n ddrylliog

As for "Language blah is better". No, sorry, apples are not better than oranges. That's your personal taste. Well, good for you =) One size doesn't fit all. Why do you even bother? - 'n ddrylliog

why `diagonal := Vector3f new()` instead of `diagonal := new Vector3f()` or even `diagonal := Vector3f()` is this because someone felt he must not be like any other language? - Tzury Bar Yochay

I know several typed inference languages. I dislike them --- again, type inferencing never took off not because the technology was hard, but because programmers preferred the declarations --- it really helps. Not to mention tools like ctags/etags, etc., do a good job for popular programming environments (i.e., vi and emacs), which meant that languages without such support never get widespread use. - Piaw Na

Conservative Garbage Collector: 1) this is more an argument abut gc than conservative gc. I have no problems with gc, I just want accurate gc. 2) That's a fair point, but not enough to make me want to use conservative gc. I'd be happier managing resources from C libraries manually than worrying that hash values are confusing the collector. 3) Yes, writing a gc isn't easy, but I'm sure... more... - Laurence Gonsalves

@Piaw, a type inferenced language just means that the type is concretely there, just it doesn't need to be declared in syntax. Thus, any smart editor or IDE, or other tool could reify or show types on demand if the developer so chose. Ctags are a relatively primitive mechanism for source code indexing, once you have an editor which understands your language's AST/semantics, you don't... more... - Ray Cromwell

Tzury: why 'diagonal := Vector3f new()'? Because new is simply a static method: http://ooc-lang.org/blog... Your definition of "any other language" must be "Java and C++" and both are inconsistent/magical on this issue, as opposed to, yeah, pretty much "any other language" (Smalltalk, Ruby, Io, ...) - 'n ddrylliog

I've never heard of this before. Feel a bit disconnected. - mikepk

Ray: for better or worse, most programmers out there are using Emcas and vi. Why? Because no other tool scales up when you're dealing with large code bases. (That's one reason why even some Java programmers at Google use vi and Emacs) I don't care how primitive the tools are, they have to get things done. - Piaw Na

I agree with Laurence about conservative GC. The big one is memory fragmentation. Once upon a time, when all we ever wrote were desktop apps, memory fragmentation didn't matter. For server side applications, it matters a heck of a lot, and any language that uses conservative gc might as well provide the delete operator. - Piaw Na

C++ can be used quite effectively without STL or complicated templates, but it will never be safe from corruption or memory leaks. - Todd Hoff

I love lamp. - Mark Jepsen

@Laurence 1) Yes and no. The performance gap between good conservative and precise (/accurate/exact) garbage collectors is less significant than one would think. 2) That's a valid point 3) Actually, I've thought of using Steve Dekorte's libgarbagecollector (look on GitHub). These are still plans though, Boehm was clearly the easiest option to start with, and ooc itself isn't bound to... more... - 'n ddrylliog

Easily one of the most fascinating threads on FriendFeed right now. You guys are talking mostly over my head but it reminds me that I need to get my ass out of managed languages one day. - Akiva Moskovitz

@mikepk The language+impl has only been out there for a few months. =) - 'n ddrylliog

@Todd Totally agreed, which explains some design choices in ooc. Memory leaks is a non-issue with a GC, and as for corruption, as long as you stay out of manual memory manipulation, the compiler does most the checking for you, statically. - 'n ddrylliog

@piaw: I think we're mostly in agreement, but I really don't think it's fair to say that "most programmers use Emacs and vi". I use vi a lot, but when it comes to Java/Scala code bases, I still use Eclipse (or IntelliJ, or whatever). Even at Google. I just don't map the *entire* Google Java code base into my workspace at once. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Java developers at... more... - Joel Webber

Joel: sure, you can play tricks like mapping only what you use. But a surprising number of Java users at Google kick up vim/emacs just so they can use the *fast* low-latency search tools when they need to read code outside of what they've mapped. The numbers were really surprising to me. - Piaw Na

I've been using emacs for 2 decades and I still use it when I need to quickly edit something or slice and dice text with macros (or I write sed/perl to do it). But when I'm developing stuff, a switchover point occurs where emacs is no longer sufficient and I desire the IDE. Emacs is great for scripts where you can test for errors via a quick eval, but the cost of a compile is high in... more... - Ray Cromwell

There is, once you get into Google-size (or even Linux-kernel-sized) code bases. But I guess I've living in the Google bubble for so long, the concept of not having mega-libraries doesn't even occur to me. And we've built enough fancy tools at Google that make Emacs way faster than Eclipse/IntelliJ (see http://code.google.com/p...). Latency matters! - Piaw Na

Ultimately, this is a search problem, something that google excels at. I'm not sure why you think Emacs has any innate advantage over Eclipse/IntelliJ for this. If GTags can be built for Emacs, it can be done for those IDEs. (Those IDEs already index all symbols and store them on disk) The issue here is that "find symbol" is necessary, but not sufficient, especially on large code bases.... more... - Ray Cromwell

Heh. I open sourced all the infrastructure, but not the ranking algorithms for code (which are google proprietary) Having seen lots of old Google hands work in Emacs, I think you'll find that they disagree. People have tried adding plugins to gtags for Eclipse/IntelliJ, but none have succeeded --- those IDEs aren't designed to take plugins quite the way Emacs does. Even Vim isn't as... more... - Piaw Na

As a practical example, the Linux kernel core (minus the whole driver universe) is about 500kloc. The GWT compiler, which I work on, is about 500kloc. I have zero complains about my IDE's ability (IntelliJ 9) to deal with this code base. Call it a medium sized code base if you will. Too big IMHO to practically use with Emacs/VI (where I desire refactoring and other navigational... more... - Ray Cromwell

What you'll find is that top engineers everywhere have heavily customized environments, scripts, editors, libraries, even their own programming languages, that make switching hard. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove anything, if "old hands" is meant to covey argument by authority. Like I said, I've been personally using Emacs since 1987, I use a bevy of ELisp, Perl, Awk, and other... more... - Ray Cromwell

I think the mindset difference is huge. Codebase too big? The IDE solution is to subset. The EMACS solution is to create a search index held in memory and apply search technology to it. The size of the community hacking away on these tools also matters. - Piaw Na

Piaw, you do realize that the IDE solution (I can't speak for Eclipse), is to build a search index and apply search technology? IntelliJ spiders all your reachable code and files on project setup (now, as a background process since it can take some time) and serves up IDE functions by consulting the index. In fact, it's very much like Google Suggest. I can type symbol lookup requests... more... - Ray Cromwell

Oh yeah, but they do it on disk and so have high latency when the code base scales up. I know, because people switch to Emacs/gtags from those IDEs for that reason. :-) - Piaw Na

Google's code base is large? I mean, I know the data it holds and indexes is very large, but somehow I assumed the code itself was quite small. - Andrew C

Actually, they cache some or all of the indices in memory depending on heap, at least according to the IntelliJ lead, if you increase heap, you lower cache thrashing. I still don't see why you think ETags/CTags/etc is any different in this regard. IntelliJ uses a similar index structure, it just records a bitmask on each tag as to the context (comment, identifier, method, field, etc).... more... - Ray Cromwell

@Andrew: I assume Piaw's talking about the *entire* code base, apps and all. That's a lot of code. - Joel Webber

gtags keeps it all in memory on a server, so there's no disk seek latency. There's nothing fundamental about the IDEs that makes this stuff impossible to do. It's just far easier to do in Emacs when there's just one of you. Once the prototype gets going, it's usefulness allows others to add in more useful functionality. Until recently, things like IntelliJ weren't even open source, so... more... - Piaw Na

Thanks Joel. Yes, I'm talking about the entire codebase. All of it. :-) - Piaw Na

@Piaw, Ray: It's becoming clear to me that we're all essentially saying the same thing. To deal with a large, complex code base, you need good tools. IDEs vs. Emacs isn't really much of a dichotomy if they're both building indices and cross-references of your code base and serving them up to you within the editor. They're both IDEs, n'est-ce pas? - Joel Webber

Yes, I'm just saying, if you need to build something in a hurry, it's far easier to do it in Emacs. But more importantly, ignoring a base of Emacs/Vi users when designing your programming language is ignoring a large percentage of the population. And in some cases, it's a large percentage of a very influential population. - Piaw Na

@Piaw I somehow lost your point between the "omg I don't like type inference" and the "you're ignoring Emacs/Vim users". It's still straight-forward to look for declarations of things, what's your problem? It's precisely why := and = are separate operators - 'n ddrylliog

You'll get no argument from me. I'm a fan of diversity in programming, and I do use emacs daily. IntelliJ/Eclipse would do well to offer a simple in-editor tool for building plugins via any Java scripting engine and support saving those persistently. I guess my point is, I can't live without Etags functionality, and now I can't live without all the other features I've gotten used to:... more... - Ray Cromwell

Even without any support, editing ooc in at text editor (I personally use Vim and Geany for .ooc) is very easy, cause you can search for "whatever:" (notice the ':') and be done with it. Try doing that with a C/C++/Java codebase =) That's the payback of a simple, non-ambiguous consistent syntax - 'n ddrylliog

And AFAIK, most ooc users/contributors/hackers use vim. A few use emacs, too. We have a vim syntax file, and a contributor is looking into writing an emacs mode. =) - 'n ddrylliog

@Piaw, Ray, et al: To finish my previous thought -- There will always be some point at which an IDE (be it Emacs or Eclipse) will fail to scale. The time and space required to deal with the code base eventually grows without bound, and you simply aren't going to load it into a single machine's memory. Even if you could load all of Google's code (or at least its index) into a single... more... - Joel Webber

Or you do the work to integrate the external search tool (or whatever) into the IDE. Emacs is designed to make that easy. The other IDEs that are around today, not so much. Code Search introduces a lot of latency. gtags as implemented internal to Google has sub 300ms response times. Whenever it goes down, I get complaints from people, declaring that "it's just too much work to remember where files are." - Piaw Na

I think Piaw's concern with type inference comes from the fact that explicitly stating the type of something acts as documentation. With type inference that documentation goes away. For example, in ooc, suppose I search for "whatever:" and I see "whatever:= foo()". What's the type? Whatever foo() returns. So now I have to look up foo(). Suppose it uses type inference on its return type (assuming that's possible in ooc). Now I have to dig even deeper. - Laurence Gonsalves

I'm guessing the IDE digression related to the fact that a sufficiently smart IDE can add the implicit type information back by doing the same type inference as the compiler. The problem with going down that road is that you're coupling the code editor and the language. Either your editor needs special language support so it can do the type inference, or you have to put up with not having an easy way of knowing something's type. - Laurence Gonsalves

I don't understand how you can do conservative garbage collection without leaking memory. - Gabe

Gabe: In theory, you can't. In practice, Hans Boehm did a lot of studies in the 1990s showing you that the leakage is very tiny. The real problem is memory fragmentation. With accurate GC, you can actually improve the locality of your data structures in memory (e.g., by putting elements of a linked list or array next to each other so a cache fetch brings them all into cache), with conservative GC, you can't do that. - Piaw Na

@Laurence: type inference: For me, the advantages far outweighs the drawback(s) (And, no, no return type inference in ooc). Plus, you don't *have to* use type inference. You can declare type explicitly in your whole codebase if you feel like it. - 'n ddrylliog

For the record: I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Piaw's distaste for type inference. I've thought about the issue in the past, but haven't used languages with type inference enough to have an opinion one way or the other. The lack of return type inference might be a good compromise, as it would tend to limit how far you'd have to search to figure out the type of something, while still eliminating a lot of the "busy work" in languages that require that you specify the type of everything. - Laurence Gonsalves

@Laurence You've come to the exact same reasoning as me =) - 'n ddrylliog

I do still think you should explain the "object[space]method-call" syntax somewhere on that page. Up until the point where you use that syntax ooc looks vaguely similar to C/Pascal/Algol/etc., so seeing this unfamiliar syntax with no explanation is confusing. - Laurence Gonsalves

@Laurence I just edited the homepage. Better now? - 'n ddrylliog

w.r.t. fragmentation and conservative GC: take a look at "Compacting garbage collection with ambiguous roots" by Joel Bartlett. Worked very well when I used it in a home-brew JVM for alphas at Dec/Compaq about twelve years ago. - Sanjay Ghemawat

I really like the way C# handles pointers and GC: All objects are allocated from the GC heap. If you need a pointer to a GC-able object, you only get it by pinning it. Once the pointer goes out of scope the object gets unpinned. And you can only use pointers in code marked "unsafe" so it's obvious to the reader. - Gabe

Gabe - does the fact that C# is not compiled to machine code like C++ make it slower? - Robert Felty

Rob: C# gets compiled to native machine code when you run the code. There's also a program that ships with .Net called ngen which will create a native image without having to run the code. - Gabe

It would be nice if Microsoft open-sourced C#/.net. I know there is Mono, but that seems like it will always be second-class. - Paul Buchheit

What happened to the "Opening .Net Framework's Source Code" project, any ideas? - Ozkan Altuner

I guess Rotor isn't good enough, huh? - Gabe

I was thinking of an actual open/free license. - Paul Buchheit

Paul Graham on object orientation: http://www.paulgraham.com/noop... - Donald C. Lindsay

Louis Gray

Newsome.Org > Google Reader: Putting Scoble In Time Out - http://www.newsome.org/2009...

October 29 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Owen Greaves, David Lounsbury, Burak Çelebi and 8 other people liked this

"I like Robert Scoble. I really do. But, like my 8-year old, if I don't watch him like a hawk he gets distracted and starts doing all kinds of crazy s***. Like pooping all over Google Reader, which is really a stand-in for RSS readers in general. I know he doesn't really mean it. It's like the time my 8-year old announced that she was giving up Skittles. It was a radical thought. There was logic to it. Shoot, it made me proud. But it wasn't real." - Louis Gray from Bookmarklet

10 more comments

Actually I do really mean it. Google Reader is useless to me. It takes MORE THAN A MINUTE TO START UP on my account. Totally useless. - Robert Scoble

They just pushed a new build that should help with big accounts last night. Try again. :) - Louis Gray

I just timed it. 25.7 seconds to start up my account. Totally useless. Still. - Robert Scoble

Robert & Louis: Is Robert's experience likely to be relevant to more than a tiny minority of 'normal' users? I'm guessing the reason it takes 26 seconds to start up is that there's an avalanche of data there? - Jim Connolly

Jim: right. But I remember the days when I was made fun of for having 1,000 followers on Twitter. Now a LOT of people have 1,000 followers. I only have 1,500 friends on Google Reader and it takes 26 seconds to start up now. Useless. - Robert Scoble

Jim, it takes about half that time for me. 10 to 15 seconds. Longer than, say, FriendFeed, but not interminable. I see that it can get bogged down every once in a while when I have more than 300 new items. I never see 1000+. I am only following 894 people, and hide many shared items lists, so I am not such a drain on GR as Robert is. Also, even if Robert and I disagree at times, I always like his trying new things. If he doesn't, who will? - Louis Gray

Louis - Robert: Good points. I think it shows how insanely well developed Friendfeed is. - Jim Connolly

"The greatest myth in the history of the internet is that Twitter is the place to get news." - Co-sign. - Andrew C

I like google reader, but with FriendFeed and now Facebook, I'm getting everything shared from other networks. I think the days of the RSS reader are just going away. Nothing bad on Google Reader, it's just an older way of tracking news. I used to go in every day, in the last 6 months it's spanned to once every few weeks. And I don't feel less informed. - anna sauce

I find that I get most tech stuff fine through FriendFeed, but none of my other networks are good at getting me stuff on film. The big news blogs are on Twitter and I could get them there, but a TON of the best small film blogs aren't on Twitter, so the only way to get them is via RSS. Plus I miss so much on Twitter because I can really only check these things sporadically every few... more... - Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF

Jandy: you have a good point there. Geeks are generally two to three years ahead of the rest of the world. So, it will be interesting to see what your behavior does in two years. - Robert Scoble

Robert Scoble

shanselman: Excellent article on Windows 7 Sensor APIs w/code+details by @pete_brown http://is.gd/4GQG9 little-known win7 asskickery. - http://twitter.com/shansel...

October 29 from Twitter / Favorites from... - Comment - Like - Share

Brook White, andrei_c and Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

Matt Cutts

Google announces Navigation app for Android 2.0: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009... Some nice things here, like really fresh map data.

October 28 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Matt Ellsworth, sirishkumar, Piaw Na and 3 other people liked this

No chance for stale content that's for sure!! - Chris Myles

That should make a dent in the $99 iPhone gps apps :) so long tomtom. I need to put that on sale on craigslist right away!! - Shivanand Velmurugan from Alert Thingy

Mickey Mellen

Add Your Facebook Events to Google Calendar [Calendars] - http://lifehacker.com/5391880...

October 28 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

Peter Dawson

Mars Caves Might Protect Microbes (or Astronauts) - http://digg.com/space...

October 27 from digg.com: Stories / Popular - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

MG Siegler

I Hope That Someone Gets My Tweet In A Bottle - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...

October 27 from TechCrunch - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

I wonder if the person who gets it, can send a tweet back to the original author. - Shivanand Velmurugan

Christopher Chung

Indexed » Needles and haystacks and such. - http://thisisindexed.com/2009...

October 27 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Шнява Мункер, Shivanand Velmurugan, anna sauce and Dan Hsiao liked this

meckimac

Parasailing with the Canon EOS 7D - http://blog.planet5d.com/2009...

October 27 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

DeleteMe Uncensored: Ivan Makarov

“Ansel Adams – Early Works” Exhibit in San Jose, CA | Ivan Makarov - Photography Blog - http://ivanmakarov.com/pblog...

October 26 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan and Jeff P. Henderson liked this

Want to have your work exhibited next to Ansel's? Here is how. - Ivan Makarov from Bookmarklet

DeleteMe Uncensored: Mo Tabesh

I just got an email from the captain of one of the toronto roller derby teams. they want me to do their team/portraits shots!

October 23 - Comment - Like - Share

Dennis Jernberg, Clearlight, Ryan MacLean and 10 other people liked this

You'll look great in skates and short shorts, Mo. - Jeremy Brooks

32 more comments

go for it!! Have ya done pro portraits before? Bit nerve wrecking at first but once you get going its a great buzz!! Just kinda new to it all myself, but loving it so far. - Rasterman74

woman team? - Ricardo Liberato

ha ha!! was gonna ask the same thing?? well?? - Rasterman74

MO!! That's fantastic!!! :D You said yes, right?! - Stephanie Keating

congrats Mo - charlotte

thanks guys! :-) i'm going to email her back, yes. those girls are awesome and it can be a very good experience. and i look AWESOME in fishnet! - Mo Tabesh

of course liber, here's some preview http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Mo Tabesh

I WANT IN! - Cynical

nicely done mo, but when you can't hack it give them my information. - Ryan Dearth

Congrats Mo, a great opportunity! - Thomas Hawk

Wow! Excellent news. If you need backup, let me know :) - Alan Hyland

that's great man! see all that derby trolling paid off ;-) - bluetick

EXcellent Mo!! congrats friend! - JediPein

OK, question, she sent me an email inclusing "These photos would be put on the website, would be featured in programmes of the games we play, and would need to be available for us to use for other promotional things (events, fundraisers, etc)." and "We're very interested in working on something with you, what do you think our next step should be?" ... give me some ideas about the negotiation ... it seems to me they are asking for the copyright, am i correct? - Mo Tabesh

they are super nice and i like to work with them, do you guys have any advice? - Mo Tabesh

You can work on an individual licence for each image they want to use from what you've already produced. For future work, you could maybe work out a retainer for x-number of events and shots for y-number of purposes... or a job by job fee, with all images finally taken and selected by mutual consent for release to them... depends on how much of a budget they have really.... or could be payment in kind ;-) gosh i can be such an ass sometimes.... - JediPein

For the individual shots you've done so far you could perhaps do a package deal... say a few hundred bucks... or a few crates of Mooseheads... then the rest give them some options... i think job by job might be better, as it gives them both some flexibility... a retainer might put a lot of pressure on both sides.... them; to give you enough work to justify the retainer... you; to keep... more... - JediPein

they are not interested in my old shots. it's only for the future. so explain it again, in simple english please! - Mo Tabesh

My attempt at translating JediPein: You can sell them some rights to each shot. Not entirely giving them up, but extending some rights to them for Canadian Beans - Almond Butterscotch

Congrats and good luck! Hope you do retain enough rights to give a glimpse of ur work ;) - Shivanand Velmurugan from Alert Thingy

ya, like what almond said, but here's an expansion of in plainer language: they can either pay you a retainer meaning a lump sum per month say, and they take and do whatever they please with the images you give them, unless you specify don't crop etc. - JediPein

or, they can get you to go to each 'event' like a portrait shot or group shot or game day, and each 'event' is paid for via it's own little agreement... like a fee for each event... - JediPein

or, they can just give you loads of Mooseheads and you just shoot when you drink.... - JediPein

Congrats! Do you have the lighting gear, backgrounds etc. to do this Mo? Do you know how to use strobes etc? f-mail me if you need help with the setup you'll need. I do this kinda stuff. - Lee Shelly

YEAH for MO!!!! - Jakey

oh and lee, did you fmail me back?? I can't tell since flucker is flucked again... :( - Jakey

Congrats Mo! - Ryan MacLean

thanks everyone. and thank you for the hints. lee, i am away for the weekend, but i will fmail you for sure. - Mo Tabesh

keep the right to sell the images a stock and do it for expenses only. - Ricardo Liberato

you should make a calendar. - Thomas Hawk

go for it, just don't try to make them farrah fawcett - Tioga Pass

R.I.P. Farrah Fawcett - Almond Butterscotch

RIP Farrah Fawcett indeed. - Thomas Hawk

Robert Scoble

The biggest difference between Twitter and Facebook - http://scobleizer.com/2009...

October 24 from Scobleizer - Comment - Like - Share

metalerik, Sandeep Kalidindi, Warner Crocker and 17 other people liked this

Robert, I'm on a few social networks: Twitter, Brightkite, Friendfeed (obviously), and MySpace. Do you think I should try Facebook? - Tony C

31 more comments

Tony: Facebook is now to the status that you HAVE to be on it. I have no idea how you survived so long already. Even the prison warden is on it and he's a late adopter type. - Robert Scoble

Robert: Thanks! I'm leaning towards signing up. - Tony C

Hehe. Im not on Facebook. Mainly becuase none of my RL friends are on. - Roberto Bonini from iPhone

Wow - Tony and Robert are now officially the first people I've met with Twitter accounts that are not on Facebook - Jesse Stay

Jesse, I wouldn't have one either, but the account deletion is so hard and complicated, I removed all my friends and info once in '06 and again in '08, though I didn't get rid of the friends that time. - Jimminy

Rob: I'm on Facebook and have been since the very beginning. Do I put much effort into it? No. Twitter is FAR superior for what I do. - Robert Scoble

Robert - why would you not put more effort into Facebook a fan page would be a great way to reach a whole new set of people. - Rob Cairns

Rob: I will do that. I just find that anyone who is anyone in the tech industry reads Twitter. - Robert Scoble

But I will put more time into my Facebook Page soon. - Robert Scoble

Robert - I tend to agree a lot of people are on Twitter in the tench industry no question. It is just hard to sometimes get your point across in 140 characters. - Rob Cairns

Robert, I don't read Twitter - I do read FriendFeed and Facebook (and hopefully your Twitter comes over here if you want me to see it). - Jesse Stay

I do check my replies and have searches delivered to me from Twitter though, as I do everywhere on the internet. - Jesse Stay

Jesse: it does so you do read my Twitter. And when lists get here you will switch. I guarantee that. - Robert Scoble

Robert, I already have lists on Facebook. The only advantage Twitter gives me is I can subscribe to an entire list. I'll use lists on SocialToo, for sure - I see the benefit for those that prefer Twitter. I just don't see enough reason for lists to pull me over there though. Maybe I'm wrong though - I just heard some news that will definitely make me think twice (it will be announced next week). - Jesse Stay

Jesse - Good idea:) It makes life easy does it not. - Rob Cairns

(think twice about Twitter) - Jesse Stay

Jesse: cool. Can you call me? +1-425-205-1921 - Robert Scoble

Jesse why are you thinking twice about Twitter - Rob Cairns

What control do we have over what we see in the Facebook News Feed and Live Feed? FB changes things faster than I can learn the old system. I saw maybe 20 messages in a row regarding one person's rejection of various events. It would be nice to be able to turn that off. - SuezanneC Baskerville

Suezanne, use friend lists and filter by friend list - Jesse Stay

Differences: 1. Facebook is a walled garden, Twitter is mostly public information (so is Friendfeed). 2. Facebook has reciprocal friending, Twitter is non-reciprocal (so is Friendfeed). 3. Facebook allows commenting on updates (so does Friendfeed), Twitter is just tweets. - Michael Slattery

Now if I (as a regular nobody) want to be heard - other than by someone checking their vanity feed - I have to go to Facebook or Friendfeed. I use Twitter just as a reader - in place of RSS. - Michael Slattery

Michael, is it really walled if everyone is a member? In that regard, isn't the internet itself a walled garden? - Jesse Stay

really i will see that site...please visit my site http://ipod-video-gallery-idha... - idham ubaguru

Jesse, I've been trying to find a link I saw recently, an article where the featured person explains that Facebook will stay a walled garden because that obliges everyone to come to them. What is walled off is not the members - as you say, everyone will join - but the content. - Michael Slattery

Jesse Stay, make that 3 people now. I'm on Twitter and FF but not Facebook. Originally it was that I was concerned about privacy. Now it's mostly that I am more interested in learning and tracking information. Since not many people know me IRL, I'm not sure how it would work out with the reciprocal friending so Twitter and FriendFeed seem best for my use. If Robert and you didn't know and have as part of your work knowing so many people more personally, would it still be the same for you? - metalerik

Meta, not sure I understand your question, but the reason I like Facebook so much is because it allows me to get to know people more personally. There's no better networking than getting to know people in real life, and Facebook encourages that. Yet, at the same time if you want to remain more anonymous you can do that as well. - Jesse Stay

Thanks Jesse. I'm always interested in learning new tools. - metalerik

Does anyone here use Facebook in a more anonymous way? I remember after Facebook bought FF, people were talking about how they use FF and Facebook in completely different ways and with an almost entirely separate group of people. - metalerik

I check both compulsively. Entirely different audience for me. Fb = rl friends. I hardly add anyone that I don't know. Twitter = rest of the world. Sometimes I'm quite annoyed by the noise coz a lot of my friends try lots of apps, and I spent atleast one day a month hiding all that noise :). It matter less on Twitter - Shivanand Velmurugan from Alert Thingy

Meta, anyone using a Facebook Fan Page is - Jesse Stay

More differences: 4. Twitter input is limited to 140 characters, Facebook input can be much more than that (as can Friendfeed input). 5. Twitter is a raw feed of tweets only, Facebook has multiple types of feeds such as updates, links, notes etc. (and Friendfeed is an aggregator of feeds produced elsewhere). 6. Twitter is just now introducing lists, while Facebook has a system of... more... - Michael Slattery

Thomas Hawk

Security Guard at 555 California Street Threatens to Punch Photographer in the Face and Break His F****ing Camera - http://thomashawk.com/2009...

October 23 from Thomas Hawk Digital Connection - Comment - Like - Share

David Sanger, Susan Beebe, Frank Da Silva and 34 other people liked this

I was disappointed today to read a report by my friend Troy Holden, who works on the Caliber blog over a run in that he and another photographer had with a group of security guards at 555 California Street. I’ve known Troy for a while and we’ve been out shooting alot together. According to Troy, security guards there objected to him and a friend photographing the building based on “safety” issues. When challenged on the photography ban, according to Troy, one of the security guards asked him if he’d like to be punched in the face and threatened to break his f***ing camera. I’m very disappointed to read about this terrible reaction by these guards at 555 California Street. Photography is not a crime, nor should be taking exterior photographs of buildings and architecture. Furthermore the reaction by this guard was totally uncalled for and extremeley unprofessional. I hope that he is disciplined for his behavior in this case. - Thomas Hawk

48 more comments

Time for a walk over to 555 California. It's just about lunch time now.... - Jeremy Brooks

I sure wished I lived in California ,,, - johnpiercy

You would think they would rethink these things, knowing that not only do some of these cameras take just one shot pictures but they can take videos too. - CW™

Maybe its time to start recording video and sound while out photo-walking. - CW™

I'm considering a lanyard iPhone case so that I can just hang it around my neck and fire up video recording when I meet idiots like this. - Jeremy Brooks

Printing out and showing someone the "photographer's rights under the law" on a card would probably help more in a confrontational situation than shooting video of them. Security guards are unlikely to be even aware of the law as it regards photography, they're just reacting to perceived encroachment and watching their asses. - Adrian

Agreed. recording video of these incidents would help tremendously. - Adam Jackson from Yoono

Protect yourself by knowing your rights: http://www.urban75.org/photos... - Adrian

Adrian, if they are of this mindset then they won't care what your rights are much less what is on a card. - CW™

I have noticed that there has been a "shut down" of sorts on taking pictures especially where public places are concerned, Oddly, Burger King in my town has a notice posted on the drive up that you can not take a photo of the building within a certain parameter. As I analyzed this strange sign three things came to mind: 1) people in the shot who find themselves posted on social media... more... - Melanie Reed

Social Media has changed the playing field for a lot of things we used to take for granted - Melanie Reed

Melanie, What makes you think that I can't just go about oh say 100 yards away from the building and still take a photo with a larger lens, which will give me the same effect as if I'm up close? Not allowing it is wrong. If this continues you won't be allowed to take pictures in Disneyland for fear of copyright infringements or worried that some mentally deranged person will fly a airplane into the Matterhorn. - CW™

CW- I'm only reporting what I saw in my own town, not making a judgment on how effective postings like this are. I am using some deductive reasoning on why such signs (and behaviors) might be popping up more often. It portends to me, taking into account some other tangential issues raised by the Internet, that there are going to be more not less of these kind of things in the offing. - Melanie Reed

CW, I understand, but my point is that when someone tries to bully you out of your rights, the first thing they need to be made aware of is that you are in fact aware of your rights and that they are now breaking the law. You flip the script and if that doesn't work, proceed to step B... videotaping the act, confrontation, so on. - Adrian

And as long as you bring up your technology and skill, I believe this is what many celebrities have been arguing over for quite some time, is it not? The right to privacy has become a rather strange and illogical fight. On the one hand, there are some in society who argue "what's done in Taiwan, Bangkok, or other remote location, stays in that location" On the other hand, we now have... more... - Melanie Reed

I also want to say that I am awed by the skill of photographers and I admire much of what you create (with the exception of those who create pornography). I understand that taking a picture for many its about creating art. But then on that floor, I think of painters. Most cannot paint a portrait without being asked or seeking permission. Sketching by a remote location usually was not... more... - Melanie Reed

Adrian, If you have ever been involved in one of the confrontations with a security guard, you will know that about 90% of the time the SG has no idea what the law is and doesn't care. No amount of reasoning will get them to change their mind. Many are on a power trip, they are always right and you are always wrong, in their mind. - Jeff P. Henderson

Melanie, the problem here is that in the US you have a perfect right to take photographs of just about anything you want in a public place. So long as you are not taking photos in a place the people would reasonably expect to have privacy, such as a public rest room or a dressing area, or though a window into a private space. Yes it is good practice to ask people if you can photograph... more... - Jeff P. Henderson

on digg here: http://digg.com/odd_stu... - Thomas Hawk

Here is a great resource which summarizes photographers rights in the US. http://www.krages.com/phorigh... - Jeff P. Henderson

Dugg. Maybe Calibersf will be getting slammed for a second day in a row. :-) - Jeremy Brooks

Jeff, I've been taking photos of future wireless telecom facility locations for a living for the past 15 years. I've shot thousands of locations and been there many many times, but taking these photos is my job, and part of that is to diffuse a situation in a professional manner. - Adrian

Jeff, thank you for the explanation. So you're saying that if someone does not want to be photographed, they really have no rights if it is a public space? What should be their response? What are my choices? It seems I don't have the right anymore to refuse to be photographed. - Melanie Reed

Melanie, I think most photographers, when asked not to take someone's photo, will honor the request so the problem for the most part is self correcting, but as I said you still can take their photo if you really want to. Most people will avoid confrontation. This is how paparazzi get away with harassing celebrities in public, the celebs have very little recourse. I am hesitant to shoot closeups of people in public, but some photographers do this on a daily basis. - Jeff P. Henderson

Adrian, yes acting professional will usually help. I also have seen that if you are a professional doing your job, you are less likely to be harassed or thought of as some sort of threat as opposed to a couple of guys wandering around the streets shooting photos. Cops and security guards seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that people actually go out and shoot photos of buildings and inanimate objects for art's sake or just for the fun of it. - Jeff P. Henderson

Melanie, in the U.S. at least people have no rights not to be photographed in public settings. See Nussenzweig v. DiCorcia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Thomas Hawk

Jeff, so as I understand what you have said, if I really want to protect myself from the invasion of an unwanted photograph, I must either stay away from all public places or wear some kind of protection that totally disguises myself. Strange as it may seem, lots of people consider this an invasion. They do remember a time when they could walk about freely without being harassed or the... more... - Melanie Reed

Thank you Thomas. That's good to know. Now I have a question. Would any of you like to photographed all the time in the manner that you are describing that you have made clear we have no rights. in? You are usually on the other side of the lens. How do you think you would feel? would it bother you? - Melanie Reed

We *are* photographed constantly, all day, every day. There are surveillance cameras all over the place now. If somebody wants to photograph me in a public place, whatever. It doesn't bother me. I know that the same rights that apply to me apply to them. If I don't want to have my photo taken, I have the right to turn around, walk away, wear a hat and sunglasses. Rights are more important than our individual preferences. - Jeremy Brooks

Malanie, I shoot photos in public places all of the time such as fairs, the beach, amusement parks etc. which contain people in them and have rarely had anyone object. Mind you I'm not shooting close ups of people, generally my photos are of a large scene that happens to contain people. I don't think this is really that big of an issue for most people. People often do notice my rather... more... - Jeff P. Henderson

Good summary Jeremy. - Jeff P. Henderson

Jeff, that's a good point. We are very likely in the background (or possibly the subject of) lots of different photographs that we have no idea were taken. Visited any major cities tourist traps? Click click, welcome to somebody's family album. - Jeremy Brooks

Jeremy and Jeff, with respect, I disagree. It is the right of people not to be photographed if they don't want to be. I had a social studies teacher who introduced me to a concept:"Your rights end where another's begin" Photography like many other things is an activity, but it is not a right. - Melanie Reed

Melanie, I agree with you from a common sense and civility stand point, but according to the law you are incorrect. - Jeff P. Henderson

As much as anyone wants to say you don't have the right to something, doesn't make it illegal. You can harass them to stop but you can't do anything short of getting a restraining order to limit their activities around you. - CW™

Decent people with cameras will respect others. The key here is to ask. If they don't do it, then you at least tried. - CW™

You can disagree, and I understand your sentiment, but in fact you are incorrect. People do NOT have the right to privacy in the United States when they are in a public location. That's the way it is. There are many things that may be irritating to us, but people have the guaranteed right to participate in those activities, and I'll say it again: Rights are more important than our individual preferences. - Jeremy Brooks

Jeremy thank you for your response. It is isn't irritating to me at all. With respect to you, It offends my very being. You invade another when you take something that does not belong to you. My image is my own. It was given to me. Indeed, there are some Indian tribes who also consider this sacred and to take a picture is to steal a little of their soul. - Melanie Reed

Melanie, are you offended when you walk into a shopping mall or into a bank, driving down the street? You are being photographed constantly in these locations and many others. - Jeff P. Henderson

Melanie, then how to you handle having your photograph taken dozens of times a day? Sorry, your image is not yours exclusively; we were given eyes. - Jeremy Brooks

Melanie, have you ever looked at the amazing photography of Robert Frank? Or Garry Winogrand? Or Lee Friedlander? Or even crazy old Bruce Gilden for that matter. Much of their work is street photography. Random and amazing art. Imagery taken of people without their permission. I think that we are richer as a society having work like this in our lives. Have you seen the videos of the... more... - Thomas Hawk

Gentlemen, the key point here is permission. I have the right to me. And you have the right to you. - Melanie Reed

Yes, but no one asked mine or your permission to take our photos at the bank or mall. How do you account for that? - Jeff P. Henderson

except Melanie that according the U.S. constitution as interpreted by the courts, the first amendment right to free speech trumps your right to not have your image captured. The greater good of having a free and open press/speech trumps the desire by people not to be in photographs. - Thomas Hawk

I think this discussion is getting off track. The incident being described here has nothing to do with people being photographed, it is a building. I suspect these guards could care less if you stood there and took pictures of people all day. They just won't let you take a picture of a building. - Kenton

The fact that this issue is over photographing an inanimate object makes it all the more ridiculous. - Jeff P. Henderson

Jeff, that's exactly my point. We could argue all day with Melanie over people's rights vs wants, but I think if any of us was approached by Melanie and asked not to photograph her we'd all agree and not take the picture. The fact that these security guards act like this when protecting a building from having its picture taken is just ridiculous. - Kenton

Here's the reality today: I am the guy standing in the middle of the sidewalk, wearing my orange baseball cap, taking pictures of all sorts of things, in all directions. You see ME. Everybody sees ME and where my lens is pointed. But Melanie, do you see the perverts behind/below/above you, shooting with long lenses, cell phones, minicams hidden in a baby stroller or other seemingly harmless item? The shutterbugs you can see? We aren't the ones you should be worrying about. - Morgan Haley

We know you're just the decoy Morgan. That's why we need to get you out of the way first cause you're making it hard for us to keep an eye out for the pervs. :p - ronin from iPhone

Robert Scoble

EugeneWare: NetNewsWire iPhone app now works with Google Reader. It's fantastic - http://bit.ly/1UX53K - http://twitter.com/EugeneW...

October 24 from Twitter / Favorites from... - Comment - Like - Share

Andres Montano and Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

I'm using NetNewsWire with Google Reader since two weeks ago and it's very useful - Tiziano Fogliata

Thomas Hawk to Thomas's feed, DeleteMe Uncensored

YHOO's stock is down almost 2% now. Is this because Flickr's gone offline?

October 20 - Comment - Like - Share

nick, Gregg Demario, Jason Huebel and 12 other people liked this

time to buy! - eyebex

104 more comments

Time to buy gold, ammo and food! - dshalock

...someone forgot to pay the electric bill... - JA Castillo

Clearly, it is because I proposed a DMU reunification with Caleb and I as admins. The response was uniformly positive, and flickr cannot allow DMU to ever be reunified. - andertho

what's the point of a unified DMU if it's censored by Caleb? - Thomas Hawk

caleb censors? - eyebex

there won't be any censorship - andertho

Of course he would. He wanted to censor in the old DMU, he advocated having Kathleen banned from the group. He was one of the chief architects towards nuking the entire group. But most certainly he'd censor going forward. - Thomas Hawk

what makes you think there would be no censorship in a group with Caleb as an admin Andertho? - Thomas Hawk

Then I would quit. In the meantime, I'm willing to give it a shot. - andertho

BTW, if someone were to break the law by doing something like posting pictures of children having sex, I would delete the post and ban the member. - andertho

I'm tired of starting communities then watching them, nuked, censored, having to quit, etc. It's emotionally draining. I'd rather see a community that won't be censored or won't be nuked. "Quiting" a group because of censorship when it's started and admined by a known censor doesn't seem like a very good idea. - Thomas Hawk

you are all forgetting that uncesored groups do not work on flickr - all it takes is one person to break flickr TOS and someone to tell heather about it - eyebex

TH, I hear you. But this place simply isn't doing it for me. - andertho

As would I Andertho. Illegal content ought not exist on any social network. The problem with Flickr though is that the Flickr TOS/CG doesn't distinguish between illegal activity and things that are just against the rules, like being "that guy." - Thomas Hawk

what's going on with Flickr today, Thomas? - Melissa

Looks like the censors deleted the whole site ;-) - Nils Sandin

It's only going to be worse going forward because now any admin can censor any content they want and then just fall back on flickr's vague TOS/CG as justification. Flickr's TOS/CG is soooo vague that anyone can use it as a hammer to pretty much remove any content that they disagree with. - Thomas Hawk

http://www.thatguy.com/ - eyebex

Flickr's down Melissa, has been for about an hour now. I have no idea why. Ryan was saying DDoS. - Thomas Hawk

GOOG's stock is down 2%, too. Is this because Flickr's gone offline? - Glen Mistletoe

time to buy! - eyebex

All true TH, all true. But the alternative is this place or nothing. I love you all, but this interface sucks ass. I'd rather take my chances on yet another DMU. - andertho

I'm just joking about YHOO's stock being down because of Flickr Glen, it's down because of their earnings report. - Thomas Hawk

The interface is awesome dandertoe. What's not to like? - Ryan MacLean

I think it's down because the market does not approve of the Hack Girls - dshalock

Apple is up 4.5% - andertho

Check out article number 2 for a more mature way to manage content you dislike in a community per FriendFeed's TOS: 2. User Responsibility You are solely responsible for your use of the Site and Services. Because FriendFeed merely serves as a repository of information, user-posted content does not represent the advice, views, opinions or beliefs of FriendFeed, and FriendFeed makes no... more... - Thomas Hawk

I wonder if the screen name "ThatGuy" or varients of that are already all taken on Flickr. - Adam Harrison

My point is that it's probably down because of a general downturn in the market. YHOO's earnings report should not affect GOOG or EBAY or MSFT, all of which are down a roughly similar amount. - Glen Mistletoe

I find conversation flows better on Friendfeed, I like how responses roll in even before you refresh the page. - Thomas Hawk

This interface is very nice for two minutes ago and two minutes from now. If you want to have a lengthy, days long convo you can go back to, it sucks ass. - andertho

YHOO is down more than GOOG or MSFT or EBAY. - Thomas Hawk

We might as well use iChat for DMU. I'm sorry, it's true. - andertho

Does iChat have groups, conversations? - Ryan MacLean

I mean, it doesn't even have topics - Ryan MacLean

iChat doesn't create an archive or allow for non-realtime responses. FriendFeed does. - Thomas Hawk

tinychat, with video. we can yell at each other for real andertho!! - Mo Tabesh

WTF is ichat? - Stephanie Keating

Also doesn't interface with email, web. - Ryan MacLean

tinychat and other chat apps or photophlow or any of that stuff is not a group. It's temporary conversation. This is a permanent archive that can be searched and accessed at any time. - Thomas Hawk

Friendfeed is the closest thing I've seen yet to Flickr Groups forums, it's primary limitations are that you can't format text (including even a basic paragraph break) and you can't post inline images, gifs, etc. - Thomas Hawk

i was joking TH. - Mo Tabesh

hi Tre. Hi Tom. and yes the posts here are confusing... at times - Jakey

yeah I know Mo. ;) - Thomas Hawk

but, i'm not done voting - Clearlight

and Tom I'll gladly hand over to you and sera.. but as I said you have to join FIRST - Jakey

Hey Clearlight, how's L.A.? - Thomas Hawk

I like that I can block Cody and TVJ on Friendfeed and they become invisible to me. That's a nice feature. - Thomas Hawk

Hey Hawk, it's still here... I had a great trip to Sonoma. Sorry I missed you. - Clearlight

Why tinychat instead of Skype Chat?? I've always loved Skype chat! We use it a lot in the Camphone DMU group/.// s2art is most attractive before his third cuppa cawfee ;))) - Jakey

Tre - there are timestamps. - Ryan MacLean

i should block myself, then i have time to finish my thesis. - Mo Tabesh

do I detect a little hacklash? - nick

sorry I missed you as well Pal. Looking forward to catching up in person next Month down in L.A. - Thomas Hawk

Tre, hover over the bubble icon next to a comment. - Thomas Hawk

Don't block yourself Mo, You'll never be able to unblock yourself then. - Thomas Hawk

so maybe heather finally found the big red button - Clearlight

None of that pesky censorship or having to worry about flickr nuking your flickrstream because Iansand reports you as "that guy," for being fingerpointy. - Thomas Hawk

ugh the phrase "that guy" makes me shudder every time under heather's sickly condescending tone. - nick

Heather's blocking me. http://friendfeed.com/hchamp - Thomas Hawk

why? - Clearlight

and then.. why would you care? she's also not subscribing here, that I can tell? But I guess lovely Brenda is... fuckers. Is Brock? Can I call him a fucker again too??? - Jakey

i think my stock is 99% down because Flickr is down. grrrrrr - Nia

Call them anything you like here. What you post offsite doesn't violate any of their TOS clauses. - Adam Harrison

" hover over the bubble icon next to a comment." I get nothing? help - steve sayers

you might not be violating their TOS, but you're giving them a reason to hate you. Having hundreds of hours of your invested time at the mercy of people with "feelings" is quite hard to tolerate - nick

Steve, if you hover (with your mouse) and wait a second over the bubble to the left of this comment it will show you how long ago it was posted. Also if the bubble is filed in that means that the person that wrote it is a contact of yours. If the bubble is not filled in then this means that the person is not a contact of yours. If you see an unfiled bubble and want to subscribe to that person you can hover over their name and add them. - Thomas Hawk

They already hate me Nick. - Thomas Hawk

and you have no recourse if they nuke your account..? - nick

TH ta, but not on myIE6, I get nothing after 30 secs (I only try hovering with my mouse, anything else ends in pain) - steve sayers

So... If the db's are restored to two weeks ago, can anyone recommend a tool for quickly backing up the dmu2? - Adam Harrison

Interesting Steve, not sure why it doesn't. Why are you using IE6? - Thomas Hawk

7 & 8 are shit (slow, flaky, crashing), don't normally have any problems at all with 6, new computer perhaps? anyway, ta for help. - steve sayers

People still use IE? - Stephanie Keating

I used to know dos and windows 3.1, sad eh - steve sayers

Nah... I learned on DOS when I was a wee lass. Having that initial sort of interface with the computer eventually prepared me for my Linux days. :) - Stephanie Keating

Firefox is a much better browser than IE Steve. In my opinion at least. - Thomas Hawk

yep, perhaps it's time I moved on, can I run both on the same machine? - steve sayers

Steph.. but do you remember Fortran4?? or Cobol?? ;) - Jakey

Nick, I don't think I have any recourse if Flickr nukes my account. Hopefully they won't. I think by removing myself from Flickr communities though where they might use something I post in a forum there as ammunition to nuke it I'm probably safer. Flickr needs to institute a policy whereby they won't nuke accounts without warnings though or at least substantial accounts. - Thomas Hawk

hi steve! yes I run both! so that my troll can access Flickr easier ;) - Jakey

TH.. I love you, but that's a bit egotistical.. "or at least substantial accounts" NO ONE should be deleted without warning. - Jakey

TH lurves his flickr account, that's why he's distancing himself. - Ryan MacLean

here here Jakes - steve sayers

Jakey, *absolutely* nobody should be deleted without warning. But I suppose I feel that an account (any account not just mine) that has been active on flickr for many years with thousands of photos and thousands of hours of input is probably more of a tragedy when nuked than the guy who joins today posts 12 photos of real estate that he's selling and finds his account nuked. It doesn't... more... - Thomas Hawk

it doesn't hurt as much if you lose 30 minutes of work than if you lose 3,000 hours of work is what I'm saying. - Thomas Hawk

I agree, what other than time invested and emotion is at risk though (not diminishing that that is a huge pain), is all you stuff backed up? - steve sayers

flickr back - steve sayers

Steve all my images are backed up. What I'd lose though is an incredibly rich collection of meta data and organization around my photos. Also many contacts that are very important to me and a big chunk of my online life over the past 4 years or so. - Thomas Hawk

SK you use linux? Niiiiiice. What flavour? - Ryan MacLean

understand, can the MD not be attached to your real files? (I am wondering myself whether I can match flickr org via photoshop/folders) - steve sayers

Huge conversations have taken place on many of my photos and that i've participated on on others' photos. I'd lose that. I'd lose so much actually none of which can really be backed up. Since flickr could nuke my account without warning based on something I say in a forum, it's simply safer not to say anything in flickr forums. Silence is golden there. Community is not bound by the... more... - Thomas Hawk

I understood your premise TH... But I'd be pissed royally if I got deleted (which is why I questioned Brocks *FURTHER ACTIONS TAKEN* fmail to me if I did not cease and desist. that fucker). I am not a "substantial account".. though I have been there since 2004. I certainly have all my images backed up.. but nothing else. Though I know when Fotolog got snarley, there was a way to back up ALL your data from the site.. I forget how now, though. - Jakey

TH Looks like discretion is the better part of valour in this case, I would have made the same decision. :-) - steve sayers

Jakes, I'd be completely pissed if they deleted your account. As was I when they deleted Pierre's and Shepherd's, two other accounts that I blogged about when they did it. Nuking *any* substantial Flickr account without warning is *completely * unacceptable. They didn't use to do it this way. They used to warn you and make your account private. Current practices are simply too dangerous for users who value their data. - Thomas Hawk

Ryan - I use linux at work, just Ubuntu. It's friendly. I don't have the time to get too hardcore into it, but I admin my own system and I haven't really broken it yet (knock on wood). - Stephanie Keating

you should be pissed.. Brock threatened me because I made a post about DMU2 ;) I am not allowed to EVER POST OR COMMENT ON DMU AGAIN!!! After I got done being TOTALLY HYSTERICAL (his words).. it was rather amusing. Though I'm sure he could get me nuked. Me and my dog shots and camphone crap. Still, they mean a lot to me.. and as I said I am *NOT * a "substantial account" (if I read your definition the right way) I don't have that many fo-toes, really.. I'm not all arty and shit. No Getty invites (dammit). - Jakey

anyway, no wukkers.. I was meaning more about the little peeps with 120 photos.. they would still be hurt if they got nuked. - Jakey

Ah right on, SK. Ubuntu has that "it just works" thing about it. - Ryan MacLean

*frikkin enter key!* and if they do get me.. I expect a freaking BLOG POST!!!! ;) - Jakey

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I love the Synaptic Package Manager... a multiverse of fun tools at my fingertips! :) I also recently discovered "screen" for the terminal - bloody brilliant idea, especially for research. I can SSH in from home and pop back and forth with the screen. Love it. - Stephanie Keating

screen is great, unless you want to use your scroll bar to look back through output... - Adam Harrison

Yeah, true - that is my one beef with it, I haven't been able to condition myself for that. Of course, you can always enter copy mode. And I like that you can save the whole session to a hardcopy. - Stephanie Keating

social media is a relatively new thing. It's big enough and the data is considered valuable enough to warrant the outrage we're seeing when the admins show us how fragile it is, especially in their hands. There needs to be a charter, some sort of code of practice that forbids any abuse of power. It needs to be written by the community, for the data it protects is the collective property... more... - nick

very well said Nick. Unfortunately I doubt the power hungry community management team at flickr is likely to go without a fight. But you are very right. Community Managers should be protectors of data not destroyers of data. - Thomas Hawk

DeleteMe Uncensored: Chris Nixon

This is getting too easy. There is NO WAY I should have four saves in the first page of The Lightbox. It was never this way before. You cunts are getting soft.

October 19 - Comment - Like - Share

James Cox, Almond Butterscotch, Shivanand Velmurugan and 4 other people liked this

Chris, you' are right; your stuff is shit. :) - James Cox from IM

3 more comments

THAT'S better! - Chris Nixon

I don't know why you even own a camera Chris. Let alone take the time to process your crap photos and put them on flickr. - Jeremy Brooks

I hope that makes you feel better. - Jeremy Brooks

Ahhhhhhhhhh. Thanks Jeremy. - Chris Nixon

Robert Scoble

The most damning thing is that no one from the FriendFeed team or Facebook has joined the community here that is talking about it to tell us what's happening in the future. That, more than anything I've written or said communicates the future of FriendFeed.

October 18 - Comment - Like - Share

H0llywoodWh0re, Sandeep Kalidindi, Shivanand Velmurugan and 117 other people liked this

I keep hoping someone will tell me I'm wrong and will post a slide deck about the future of FriendFeed. But the lack of information is confirming what I'm hearing from my sources. - Robert Scoble

113 more comments

So true - nail in the coffin! :(... - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed

It's Sunday. - Admiral Anika

Anika: geeks in both companies are online and working on a Sunday and last night is NOT the first time I've been talking about the lack of direction here. Also, over the last week lots of blogs have been posting about the traffic hit that FriendFeed has already seen. - Robert Scoble

If there really was a team working on FriendFeed you BET they would contact us on a Sunday. They used to in this old days. - Robert Scoble

Remember, Facebook has a PR team of more than 10 people. You think they aren't watching what people are saying about Facebook nearly 24/7? Not in my experience. They are the most engaged PR team in a new company I know of. - Robert Scoble

The reality is that this is still a very useful service, and people stay because of the functionality and the community. There is no other service out there that accomplishes what this one does. There is still nowhere else to go. - LogEx

LogEx: that's true, but it's also true that most people will go places where there's a clear future. Unless it's just to post non-consequential things. Me? This is both my fun time (which is why I'm still here) as well as my business (I won't be betting any of my business decisions on doing stuff here because of this lack of direction which tells me that no one is really working on FriendFeed actively anymore). - Robert Scoble

Robert, I understand the perhaps reasonable conclusions you're reaching, but breaking the silence could send too much signal to FB's competition when they'd rather send more silence which ends up, really, being noise. - Micah Wittman

FriendFeed is like an old dying dog left out in the pasture alone; abandoned by its Master to die in the silence. - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed

Most social network content is ephemeral. If people really want their stuff to have a clear future, they should own and host it on their own domains. - LogEx

Robert, so maybe you're not giving their PR _enough_ credit. It's speculation on my part, granted. - Micah Wittman

Micah: sorry, that dog don't run. Healthy companies signal future directions, even under NDA. It would be pretty easy to meet with a few members of the community, NDA them, and tell them what's going on. If Louis Gray came on here and told me he's under NDA and that I'm wrong then I'd feel much better. The truth is I've talked with people inside Facebook and I know what the former FriendFeed team is working on. Hint: it isn't FriendFeed. - Robert Scoble

Logex - yup! - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed

I still wish they'd make it open source or something so that people could continue to develop on it. :S - Lindsay

Susan, I don't think "human master - canine pooch" analogy really applies to Friendfeed team - community that's formed. - Micah Wittman

By the way, Facebook meets with bloggers/journalists all the time to give us secret hints at what's coming. I've been to Facebook several times this year for just that. Facebook has no serious competition, by the way, so they don't make PR decisions based on what Twitter is doing. - Robert Scoble

I guess I'm not most people then. If I find something that works, I prefer to stay put as long as it meets my needs. New things are nice, but I don't have time to constantly try out new services to see if they are better that what I am presently using. (That's why I follow people like Robert ;-)) The new shiny service would have to be significantly better than what I presenlty use to make me want to switch. - Jeff P. Henderson

Do you have any services that offer the same functionality, are widely available, and actually have a future, Robert? How about offering a solution for once instead of just bitching? - LANjackal

Robert. Can you reveal the information you have from your sources. Discussions where one person has information they won't reveal is frankly frustrating. If you have some inside knowledge yet continue to make statements like this and FriendFeed is dead? then it really is frustrating to the community. - Johnny Worthington from iPhone

If your business is posting to social media, and you think your content is "consequential" based on how long it will be around on the web ... I think you've misunderstood the current moment in social media. - Joel Bennett

There's much less interaction than there used to be - but I still have faith in the users. This (was) is a vibrant and interesting place to be - and that's testament not only to the people that made the site, but also to the people who breathed life into it. I'll be following friendfeed still, but i'll also be following the friendfeeders i've met here. I'm not sure where the future is, but it'll be something to do with the people here. I'm sure of that. - Iain Baker

+1 - LANjackal from IM

Micah - lack of innovation and development on FF platform will cause obsolesence soon. Social web apps must innovate or die. When Facebook acquired FF, we all knew that FF would wind down due to this. Communities will migrate to current platforms that meet their needs. I am sensing a large contingent of the FF community is about to leave FF, myself included. - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed

Re Tina: IIRC she got laid off and is prolly busy trying to find new employment - LANjackal from IM

@Susan: "social web apps must innovate or die" really? tell that to Twitter, lol - LANjackal from IM

Robert, did Wolfram-Alpha indicate their future direction being a $50 iphone app? All I'm saying is Facebook's strategy may include support to FF that's not in a time-frame worth pushing through PR yet. - Micah Wittman

My favorite thing about this whole "Facebook is dead, move on" campaign is that these guys are basically just trying to shoe you BACK to the service they talked most of you OFF of in the first place: Twitter. I'm still looking for their motivation. - Joel Bennett

Only one thing to say. Jaiku - Moved to Facebook

FB is dead? Anyone who's saying that in view of their soaring stats and the roaring success that FB Connect has been needs their head examined - LANjackal from IM

The way I see it, Robert, your constant bitching and declaring friendfeed dead is what is killing the community. While the software it runs on may be dead, the community is not. I have to separate it and explain it to you, because you don't seem to understand the difference and how being a vocal part of this community affects it. The more you put it down, the more people won't come here... more... - April Russo (app103)

^ My thoughts exactly. http://friendfeed.com/friendf... - LANjackal from IM

Susan, social web apps need utility/affection by a set of users. If cutting/bleeding edge aficionados is the particular user set in question, then what you said generally holds true. But it's not the general case unless a true replacement (in this case for FF) is available. - Micah Wittman

I don't think he's killing the community, he's just killing the community's participation with him. - Alex Scoble

Robert. Can you advise the information you have from your sources? - Johnny Worthington

I am stuck in the middle on this one... - Allen Stern

Fair point, Alex. I think this issue needs the two Scobles to put their heads together and clear the air. - Micah Wittman

http://ff.im/6HqPf - Chris Lasher

Naw...I like friendfeed. I'm not going anywhere as long as my friends are here. - Alex Scoble

Me neither :) - LANjackal from IM

Amen, Alex. - Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)

Is Friendfeed dying ( if it is) because of it being purchase by Facebook, or by members reaction to that purchase? Did people forecast the death of Friendfeed and then leave, therefore creating the exact scenario they predicted. - Kim Landwehr

That's exactly what happened - LANjackal from IM

Robert, doesn't this put the denouement on the donkey for all those who thought it too sharp a call to say what was going on in that sale and before it? It seemed fairly clear to me what had been going on mainly from seeing the actions at the time of the sale and "doing the math". As Aristotle said: "Plot is character" - Melanie Reed

Some times the lab rats do understand and stop sniffing for the cheese, looking up at the lab coats above them with a knowing twitch of the whisker. - Melanie Reed

Can FriendFeed be another StumbleUpon two years later? http://stumbleupon.com/sublog... EDIT: "I don't want it happen though. I hope FFers let me entertain us again on FB" (excerpted from http://ff.im/6pO0a in Japanese) - NaHi from f2p

I'm more of a social media *consumer* than I am a participant. From a consumer's point of view, FF is more interesting than its competitors. A nice place to hang out, enjoy, learn, and sometimes discuss. Less guesswork is involved in deciding whether to click through to sources. From a consumer's perspective, as long as it remains interesting there won't be a reason to move on. - howard shippin from BuddyFeed

Johnny: yes, my sources inside Facebook tell me that the FriendFeed team has been split apart and is working on Facebook items only. So far no one has refuted that. - Robert Scoble

April: you can believe that I'm personally killing the community but that really is giving me far more power than I actually have. The community has dramatically changed in the last two months. The alpha geeks I follow and that I build my business around have largely left. Everytime I meet geeks at conferences they tell me they are not spending as much time on FriendFeed as they did before the sale to Facebook and that the lack of direction from the team is largely responsible for that. - Robert Scoble

And, April, if you read my blog post you'll see that I believe a new community is already moving in here -- one that doesn't care if the technology will see new features. - Robert Scoble

I'm not on FB that much, but do people from their team actually get involved on the site? Is that even possible, with the privacy controls? I said it on another thread: you can't serve two masters. If FB is paying the bills now, that's probably where erstwhile FF staff must spend their time. - .LAG liked that

I agree with Robert here - Matthew DeVries

.LAG: yes. I have dozens of Facebook employees as friends over on Facebook and they do engage all over the place. - Robert Scoble

.LAG: the head of PR at Facebook, Brandee Barker, even has a Twitter account: http://twitter.com/faceboo... and there are TONS of employees who hang out on both Twitter and Facebook like Dave Morin, head of Facebook's platform team. - Robert Scoble

Kim: I did one of the first interviews with the FriendFeed and Facebook teams after the sale was announced (within the first hour) and even then you could tell that Facebook had no plans for FriendFeed's technology and mostly wanted the team. The fact that Gary Burd (who ran the Google Talk team and is VERY influential in Seattle technology) has already left speaks VOLUMES to what is going on behind the scenes. Guys like Gary don't leave if they are having fun and making a huge impact. - Robert Scoble

April - Robert actions and Roberts threads have nothing to do with the death of Friendfeed. Robert's threads still have traffic and activity. The place where I see, where Robert would probably not ever be able to appreciate is the fact that there was once a time when a postless thread was impossible. Every single one of my threads had traffic. Even if it was one or 2 silly posts of... more... - Matthew DeVries

http://friendfeed.com/bwana that right there.....that is the saddest thing. That was once what I considered to be the most important account on Friendfeed. - Matthew DeVries

That's a stupid call he made for himself - LANjackal from IM

I'm a new user. i quite enjoy what's here, at the moment. I can't say that I'm a sophisticated social networker, but I have already grown to trust many of the folk i've met here. Like someone earlier in the thread said, if enough of my friends on friendfeed decide to move on, i'll likely follow. i don't suspect that that kind of 'distant early warning' would arrive via Facebook. - T. Brent, technopeasant

My experience on FF does not hinge on Robert. The community of thinkers and feelers will find a way to interact, here or somewhere else. By the way, some of us are left out of the loop 99% of the time when it comes to knowing what's next. Welcome to the club. - Aron Michalski from BuddyFeed

Matthew: you aren't the only one to notice this or tell me the same thing. Many won't point it out in public, either, because they just don't want to piss off those who are still here. Me? Being public with what I'm hearing, experiencing, deciding, etc is the way I deal with life and the conversations with others tend to either confirm the direction I'm aiming in, or they pull me back from the brink. So far not much has changed my opinion, and, in fact, has augmented it. - Robert Scoble

Aron: Twitter is about to turn on lists. That's one feature FriendFeed had over it. Within six weeks they will turn on a new retweet feature that looks more like FriendFeed's "likes" than it looks like RTs, so that's another feature. Twitter is working on real time search and I'd expect them to turn on a much better search within six months. So, what's left? Comments. Those are added on... more... - Robert Scoble

I still get a lot of activity on my posts but it's not what it used to be. The big thing I've noticed is a rarely get new subscriptions yet I'm still quite active here. Going from getting several or more a day to one or so a week is a big indicator to me of FriendFeed's decline. - Akiva Moskovitz

It's time to open source FF. Start the chant. - Todd Hoff

is it possible that things are levelling off, naturally? can growth, here or elsewhere, expect to be exponential forever and ever? - T. Brent, technopeasant

Brent, you bring up a salient point. For some, the constant movement is what they are really excited about more than the community. This is not to say that these ones don't enjoy the community, they obviously do. But they enjoy the "building" up of it. It's like getting trapped in the "I always want to be falling in love" feeling and never, as you bring out, get to and enjoy the natural leveling off. Some do enjoy that part. And there may be enough of them to keep this version of FF going. - Melanie Reed

There's a problem with stasis, though. For one, it almost always leads to entropy and, for two, it means that there isn't an influx of new blood. It's the same people doing the same things having the same conversations. It decreases how dynamic the experience is. It becomes stale. - Akiva Moskovitz

I'm not saying that FriendFeed's hit that stage yet but it most likely will. I'm still having a great time here but it's not nearly as exciting as it used to be and, no, that's just because the honeymoon period's worn off. - Akiva Moskovitz

Akiva, I respectfully disagree. It's like exploring a new path in an old garden. This is the place most people are either afraid to traverse or have not developed the discipline to want to go there. There are always new things yet to be discovered in the same relationship. We just get "ants in our pants" not wanting to sit still long enough to discover it. ;) - Melanie Reed

Melanie, oh yeah? Well, you're WRONG! In all seriousness, I think it's two sides of the same coin. And I want both. It's why I hang out both on Twitter and FriendFeed. I get different (but good!) experiences out of both. - Akiva Moskovitz

Matt - Yup, I've experienced the same thing as I have over 2,500 FF followers and now see a very low user engagement; whereas, in the past, I could get a ton of likes / comments on any topic. Now I see only crickets!! FF is dying. - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed

Akiva, Its more about learning to "exult in monotony". ;) - Melanie Reed

Hah. Sorry, Melanie, but when it comes to social networking, I'm definitely polyamorous. - Akiva Moskovitz

Akiva, I've just come to appreciate the wisdom of Solomon: that there is "nothing new under the sun". lol Or as Shania Twain would say: "That don't impress me much." - Melanie Reed

With Friend Feed I can go to the site, and watch in realtime all the action going on with those I follow. I see Likes, Comments, Pictures, Nicely grouped and can type more than 140 characters if I want to. With Twitter, it's all a kludge to add on this and that and this client or that client and I just don't see how Twitter compares technically to FriendFeed at this time. Twitter was... more... - Keith Rowland

Yeah, the 140 character cap is the most baffleing thing that makes me wish FF wouldn't die and Twitter become king. I want more than 140 characters, I want it in real time, I want it in conversation, and I want it 100% free of super poke and my highschool neighbor's grand mother following me. - Matthew DeVries

It is the weekend and some people sleep :) At least that's how I'm looking at it ..for now.. plus I'm begging: Friendfeed please don't go away.. - http://new2me.posterous.com/friendf... (via http://ff.im/a57K2). - Chris Myles

FF activity is like the Bears defense tonight... far less vibrant than you'd expect - Jay Cuthrell from BuddyFeed

sorry 2 say that Scoble friendfeed is slowing down 2 :( - polou/indigo_bow

Not dead yet. Thank goodness. - Aron Michalski

The truth is we know nothing more than a few weeks after the sale when the team commented that they will keep it going as long as they could. We all knew development would stop. We all knew it would run on auto-pilot. No one here seriously expects FriendFeed to continue forever but a lot of us aren't pulling the plug and walking out the door. Interaction is down, to be expected, and I'm... more... - Johnny Worthington

well-put, Johnny. - T. Brent, technopeasant

Agree Johnny.. - Chris Myles

Here we go again... - BLOGBloke

OH MY DEAR LORD! THE FRIENDFEED TEAM ISN'T INSTANTLY AVAILABLE ON A SUNDAY AFTERNOON TO TALK ABOUT THEIR STRATEGIC PLANS! ALERT THE MEDIA! - Glen Mistletoe

Glen, the last 13 words took your statement from accurate to inaccurate - Matthew DeVries

What Twitter client are you using these hours anyway Robert? Have you checked out CoTweet? - Matthew DeVries

Regardless of the Friendfeed team's lack of comments, the volume on some threads like this does prove to me that life still exists on FF. I will agree that the volume is lighter but nothing has officially shown me that Friendfeed is dead, only bogus news articles trying to create news... - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Look at FriendFeed. Look at Facebook. Which one needs improvement? Of course the team isn't working on FriendFeed now. But they're still using it, and would be upset if Facebook killed it. Facebook values them. They won't kill FriendFeed. - Bruce Lewis

strictly speaking, since the time of the sale facefeed staff have added new features http://friendfeed.com/friendf... posted news about technology development http://friendfeed.com/friendf... and responded to user support http://friendfeed.com/friendf... - Mike Chelen

Mathew: I use Tweetie on iPhone for almost all Twitter tasks. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

You also started it at 3am in the morning on Sunday - kind of a bad time to get their attention, don't you think? - Jesse Stay

Social Media Epertistes are vampires, they'd shrivel up and die otherwise after a night full of exsanguination orrrrrrrrr we could just fwd. this to the Feedback Room [done] - sofarsoShawn

Great, so its over? I wonder how many times the community is going to be willing to put themselves into something like this before we realise that all this stuff needs to move over to an open platform. I have a few great great communities die because of financially/politically motivated owners. shitty. - Jason Strachan

Which reminds me: Anybody know how the OpenFF project's going? - Dennis Jernberg

We had this discussion about the future of Friendfeed back when the buyout was first confirmed. We assume it's treading water, and maybe some day we'll be surprised by an update. - Vezquex: God of FF

Shawn, well done - Jesse Stay

Vezquex, yeah - how many more times do you predict this will come up again? FriendFeed just gave an excuse for people to say something's dead. I predict this will happen many more times until it is actually dead or they start really vamping it up again. No one in this thread has the authority to know that. - Jesse Stay

Maybe we will just roll our own waves. - Sean Oliver

Re: Shawn http://bit.ly/g7zYA - Matthew DeVries

Let's stop comparing elephants to fleas. Even if having 10 PR people allowed Facebook to be the "most engaged" new company, adjusted against the number of inquiries originating from members, 10 people cannot support that volume. With 250 million (or how ever many more) members, the right level of PR staffing would have to be closer to 250 (one PR person per 1 million members) to get... more... - Rich Reader

Wow, I hadn't realized Bwana had completely left. Did he blog about it? - Laura Norvig

I'm not sure if he blogged about it, Laura, but he certainly did talk about it...I'm surprised that he made his feed go dark as abruptly as he did. - Alex Scoble

Laura, Alex, yeah that abruptness took me by surprise too. My iphone shed a pixelated tear. - Micah Wittman

screw this thread.... Robert Scoble crushed my friendfeed fantasy... and you people are still talking about friendfeed being dead, Now let the damn thing die quietly thank you...... - Cjay

Start using Hide, Cjay - Alex Scoble

All Hail FriendFeed. FriendFeed is dead. Long Live FriendFeed. I like it better than wave, twitter, fb. If anything the signal to noise ratio has improved. - Robert Higgins

Paul's Response on Read Write http://thenextweb.com/2009... - Robert Higgins

You guys do know that Paul did post about this,right ?? Rendering Roberts shock a moot point. - Roberto Bonini from iPhone

Paul Buchheit speaks up! http://ff.im/a8LNU - Susan Beebe

Every time I see this, I keep thinking that "damning" is entirely too strong of a word... - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

The walrus replied - Steve Gillmor from iPhone

Roberto (and the walrus): oh, really? Did you READ what Paul wrote? How does that differ from anything I've said? - Robert Scoble

Robert, you said FriendFeed is dead and Paul said it isn't. Keep in mind you're using said "dead" site to respond. - Allred

Twitter is undernourished FF is chronically ill. FB is fat with clogged arteries and 10% of its users have disabled accounts including me. - Darrell Hudson

DeleteMe Uncensored: Blake Caldwell

Great idea to take the discussion outside of Flickr.

October 19 - Comment - Like - Share

Almond Butterscotch, charlotte, Travis Koger and 6 other people liked this

Engaging in community on Flickr is risky. They have shown that they can (and will) nuke entire communities and accounts based on their vague interpretations of their TOS/CG. They call this context which gives them an extremely wide latitude to destroy customer data. Flickr's already destroyed my data both in groups and in my photostream. Rather than risking them nuking my entire... more... - Thomas Hawk

7 more comments

Yeah - I've been following what's going on. It sucks worrying about losing everything. We pour so much of our time and energy into that site that (that we're paying for), that it's terrifying that they could just shut us down without notice. I get that they're a company and have the right to do whatever they want with their service, but man, it'd really hurt to lose my account. I have several photos that I've decided not to post because I was afraid they would provoke a negative response from Flickr. - Blake Caldwell

Also, about posting here - I've spent a little time on Friendfeed without really figuring out the best way to go about it... This group is great because it's more of a focused area for conversation, not the standard people-following that I've been used to. Very good idea - I'm looking foward to seeing how it progresses. - Blake Caldwell

Is there a link to Friendfeed's terms? Just wondered, because they are owned by Facebook - RumNose

Their terms are *far* more accomodating than Flickr's. http://friendfeed.com/about... My favorite term is the one about user responsibility which is pretty much exactly the opposite of Flickr's Community Guidelines. - Thomas Hawk

2. User Responsibility You are solely responsible for your use of the Site and Services. Because FriendFeed merely serves as a repository of information, user-posted content does not represent the advice, views, opinions or beliefs of FriendFeed, and FriendFeed makes no claim of accuracy of any user-posted material. FriendFeed archives links to third-party websites. The linked websites'... more... - Thomas Hawk

they then give the ignore tool to simply ignore whatever content you don't like -- a *far* more responsible way to handle community content than Flickr's team of censors which can and will nuke you without warning at any moment. - Thomas Hawk

nice! That's the way the internet used to be, possibly how it is supposed to work. Further, the lack of anonymity also means that people say things that they take responsibility for. I like that! - Shivanand Velmurugan

It's refreshing for a site to say, hey, it's not our job to constantly scrub your experience and nuke groups. It's nice that FriendFeed takes a more mature attitude towards user content. - Thomas Hawk

DeleteMe Uncensored: James Cox

The problem with the new DMU, is that there are so many bloody DMU groups it's impossible to find the one with you lot in it

October 16 - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

Also, have at me with your sporks - James Cox

4 more comments

Ah we're the one linked above this page. :) - Thomas Hawk

Nope., coz i got you all on my personal stream, etc. Actually the problem is the send to group popup on flickr. i mean, wtf... - James Cox

ah yeah. Ours is the one with the Abe Lincoln head for the time being. - Thomas Hawk

I concur... we need one to rule 'em all! :) - Shivanand Velmurugan

I also concur... why are we split into three different voting pools? Can't we all just get along? :-) - boscbo

Ricardo Liberato

October 14 from Flickr favorites - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan, Ventri and Thomas Hawk liked this

Thomas Hawk to Thomas's feed, DeleteMe Uncensored

Just had a good lengthy phone call with Pierre Honeyman about Flickr management. Will be interesting to watch where his conversation goes in the Flickr Help Forum.

October 14 - Comment - Like - Share

Kol Tregaskes, Lars Clausen, Kenton and 10 other people liked this

The let him back in to the help forum? O_o - Adam Harrison

14 more comments

glad to see positive developments ... it can only benefit everyone in the long run ,, well written letter TH .. - johnpiercy

Yeah, they let him back in the Help forum. I'm still banned there myself. It will be interesting though to see if/how they engage him there though and if they can actually handle criticism in his thread that he's working on right now. It was a very good call between Pierre and I but we pretty much agree on everything 100% with each other. Flickr's response will be more interesting to me. - Thomas Hawk

Things are escalating. Perhaps in few weeks Yahoo will nuke Flickr altogether. - Ivan Makarov

Yes, this is interesting.. Flickr Response s/be what they really say it is.. "the internet is under new managment - you" - Facilicate the forum/glue the gaps and get out of the way. Users are smarter then the Corporation. If they get it , they get it.. else its just becomes corporate screech !! - Peter Dawson

Peter that's a good message and it's pretty much on key with what Pierre and I believe. But it's not where Flickr's been and although he is probably more optimistic than I am that they are open to allowing dissent and becoming a more tolerant company in the future, I'm far more pessimistic. It will be interesting to watch his thread though. - Thomas Hawk

"We are waking up and linking to each other. We are watching. But we are not waiting." :)- - Peter Dawson

Very true. - Thomas Hawk

are you okay, thomas? you seem subdued :-( - squacco

no I'm fine. Still just bummed out that they nuked DMU. - Thomas Hawk

okay, good. i worry, you know... - squacco

I think what we need right now is a good dose of Shepherd Johnson. - Thomas Hawk

he'll be off raising a ruckus somewhere *sigh* - squacco

your critics are your most important asset squacco. - Thomas Hawk

i have critics?? *cries* - squacco

I'm speaking about Shepherd. He definitely is a critical one that dude. I don't think you have very many critics. - Thomas Hawk

AJ Batac

Doomsday sign or UFO? Strange circle in Moscow sky - http://www.youtube.com/watch...

October 11 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan, Ňicķ and Yolanda liked this

hmm.. - Shivanand Velmurugan

Alan Cheslow

Walt Mossberg says Windows 7 is "the best version of Windows Microsoft has produced" - http://ptech.allthingsd.com/2009100...

October 8 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Daniel Rowley, Matt Snoulten, Chieze Okoye and 8 other people liked this

"After using pre-release versions of Windows 7 for nine months, and intensively testing the final version for the past month on many different machines, I believe it is the best version of Windows Microsoft (MSFT) has produced." - Alan Cheslow from Bookmarklet

8 more comments

One would hope that the next version is always the best one. Right? - Louis Gray

It's pretty good. - Pete Gilbert

If they had released XP after Vista, XP would be regarded as the superior product. So 7 will surely be even better. - Adrian Scicluna

XP doesnt really compare. Have you tried it? - Pete Gilbert

it is good - andy brudtkuhl

YO WALT, IM REAL HAPPY FOR YOU, AND IMMA LET YOU FINISH, BUT LINUX IS THE BEST OPERATING SYSTEM OF ALL TIME!! - Otto

I have the dubious honour of having worked with anything from DOS3.3 to Win7 RC, so I think I may know the difference, yes. - Adrian Scicluna

That's a bit like saying, H1N1 is the best influenza this virus has come up with. - Phil Boiarski

*facepalm* - Chieze Okoye

Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

Nuclear Powered Batteries the Thickness of a Human Hair - http://siliconangle.net/ver2...

October 8 from The SiliconANGLE - Comment - Like - Share

Shivanand Velmurugan liked this

This is cool on so many levels! I can't wait to be 92 :) - Shivanand Velmurugan

Shivanand Velmurugan › Likes