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Steven Perez
Steven Perez
You think abortion is wrong? Don’t have one. I think killing people is wrong, so I’m not in the army. My tax dollars still go to fund it, though (in fact about 21 cents of each of my tax dollars). My tax dollars also go to keep prisoners on death row even though I think the death penalty is morally wrong. My tax dollars fund Guantanamo and Bagram,... - http://silas216.tumblr.com/post...
November 8, 2009 from Tumblr - Comment - Share
I would like to present an argument against your case, but I can't find any! *highfive* - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
There is a divergence of opinions upon whether certain activities are "victimless" or not. In each of the examples cited above, there are people who are passionately opposed to the activity in question, and who use a variety of means - legislation, protest, criminal - to make sure that abortion or the death penalty or Guantanamo Bay don't get funded by governments. - John E. Bredehoft
This is a specious argument, if only because capital punishment and military expenditures are both subject to democratic process whereas abortion was made legal by a court decision. The bigger issue is that abortions will skyrocket if the cost to the recipient goes down. - Rob Sterling
Remind me again, Rob: who elects the people who select the Supreme Court justices? - Steven Perez
Who gets to vote them out is the issue, Steven. - Rob Sterling
Nope. The issue is why some things are worth getting worked up over and why some others are overlooked. The word for today, Rob, is "hypocrisy". - Steven Perez
Seriously, do you realize that abt 40% of African-American pregnancies in the U.S. are aborted, currently? By lowering the price to zero, you're basically supporting black genocide. Free abortion will be to blacks and hispanics what smallpox was to the Incas. - Rob Sterling
As my algebra teacher used to say, Rob: please show work. - Steven Perez
I was just thinking, I'd like to see any statistics to support Rob's argument. Also, should we talk about what things were like *before* Roe v. Wade for women who needed an abortion? In any case, the argument that "abortion was made legal by *a* court decision" and is therefore not debatable in the same way that the other issues which are "subject to democratic process" are, should mean that any other decisions of the Supreme Court are equally invalid. - Bren
Steven I was looking at your logic and went one step previous: Don't want to get pregnant? (includes men in that responsibility), don't have sex. (This would be the counter argument). I can find no argument that it is a need (no death results from abstaining). Nor can I find a good argument that it is a "right". - Melanie Reed
So we can start with Miranda rights. Those can go. What should be next, Rob? - Bren
Don't forget desegregation, Bren. That was so 1950s. - Steven Perez
Melanie: the above is a quote from here: http://globalcomment.com/2009... - Steven Perez
OK, so here's the CDC numbers: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr... In 2000, 503 pregnancies were aborted compared to 1000 live births among African-American women. That is 33%; I've seen higher numbers but don't recall where. I hope I don't have to explain demand elasticity - which is that when you lower a price for something, demand goes up. - Rob Sterling
@Bren - Miranda is a criminal law process issue, right? Of course that can be settled by the courts. But while abortion is obviously an issue for the legislature, the left took it to the courts when it didn't get the outcome it wanted. Right or wrong, that's not democracy. - Rob Sterling
Steven, thanks. Yeah, I saw. Now to counter her argument: "I am not a bargaining chip" I'm following her all the way up to and including the right to say "no" when I don't agree to have sex. It is my body. But should I become pregnant, I am then sharing my body with someone who from a biological standpoint has no choice but to trust me. I wonder if this life form (which if we found it on a planet we would consider it a lifeform) could communicate with me,how I would feel if it begged me to not kill it? Would hearing it in a way that I could comprehend make a difference in my decision? - Melanie Reed
Rob: where have I heard that argument before? Oh, yeah, now I remember: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv... - Steven Perez
Curses, you've discovered my secret identity! LOL. So? You have a point? I'd rather be on the same page as Limbaugh than that lunatic Olbermann. - Rob Sterling
Yes. (1) In your hypothesis, why does the ability to have access to abortions not affect white people's population numbers as much they will apparently non-white people? (2) Rush Limbaugh? Seriously? That alone should invalidate your hypothesis, but I'll give you a shot to try and come up with an answer for the first. - Steven Perez
We teach children in "Horton Hears a Who" : "That a person's a person...no matter how small". No one in the story can hear the whos ...except Horton. He makes it a point to tell whoville to have everybody to yell as loud as they can so they will be heard. What happens when science makes the leap forward past ultrasounds to discover a way the fetus has been communicating to us all along...we just couldn't "hear" it? What then? - Melanie Reed
Oh, and, to completely derail the conversation: (3) why does every conservative feel the need to bring up Olbermann when I catch them using Limbaugh's talking points? Do you even imagine that there is some sort of equivalence there? Cuz there really isn't. - Steven Perez
Rob: Steven pointed out desegregation as another issue that the courts had to over-rule the majority on, were they wrong there? How about the various voting writes acts that the Supreme Court had to uphold? - Bren
1) I expect it will affect white people similarly. But if it doubles the white numbers they'll still be lower than the black numbers are now. 2) So you ignore ideas that come from people you generally don't agree with? I'm sure that will lead to a happy and successful life for you. - Rob Sterling
I'm not a fan of Rob's politics (as far as I can divine them), but the math seems to back him up. In 2004 there were 584,000 "Non-Hispanic Black" births: http://bit.ly/1r9NSz (pdf). In 2004 there were 453,000 abortions performed for black women: http://bit.ly/iwjk1 (pdf). Again, my point is not to support any particular position, just that these numbers are pretty easy to find. - Steve Finger Guns Lawson
@Bren - You're talking about interpretations of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, which have been interepreted differently by the Court during different eras. Those three amendments passed through the usual process in the two decades after the Civil War. - Rob Sterling
(1) So you're guessing. OK. How about we try and see if your hypothesis holds water? (2) Wow. So far off the mark. I have no problem with opposing viewpoints. But I have a serious problem with anyone using anything that racist gasbag has to say. If Limbaugh told me that the sun was shining, I would want independent confirmation from eight other people, just to make sure. THAT is what I think of Captain Oxycontin's vaunted opinion. - Steven Perez
@tiffany Nope. I'm saying that if you make abortion really cheap, more people will do it. - Rob Sterling
@Steven - So instead of just ignoring ideas from people you disagree with, you demonize and hate those people and THEN ignore them. Got it. - Rob Sterling
@Steve - My politics are immaterial. I'm just pointing out the math. Thanks for agreeing with the math. - Rob Sterling
Reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit in school, was it, Rob? If you want to pretend that Rush Limbaugh, of all people, actually gives a damn about black people, other than owning them, then good luck with that reality. Otherwise, the subject here is about why people freak out about abortion and why they don't freak out equally as much about torture or war or the death penalty. - Steven Perez
Rob: 3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. -- From the original opinion in the Roe v. Wade case. - Bren
Your politics are imma-what? First time I've heard THAT specious line of reasoning. - Steven Perez
If it wasn't for the time, Rob, I would get the numbers from European countries where abortion is legal. Those numbers would show a significant drop in before and after legalization. Your argument that just because it may be cheaper it's gonna happen more is completely ridiculous. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
I don't "agree" with facts, Rob. I'm a librarian, and I know it's pretty easy to get those numbers. I'm actually fine with anyone who wants an abortion getting one. I'm not sure why you should feel comfortable saying that poor black women should be forced to carry on the race or some such shit. - Steve Finger Guns Lawson
tiffany, I think in that argument you will also need to examine the growing statistics of infertility - Melanie Reed
@Rene - If abortions cost a million dollars each, would there be fewer of them? - Rob Sterling
Rob: if cheese cost $1000000 a pound, we'd stop eating cheese, too. That doesn't mean that if cheese was free, all we would eat is cheese. - Bren
@Rob: that one I would believe. But guess what would skyrocket, and similarly now, if abortion is made illegal? - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
@Steve - I am also fine with anyone who wants an abortion being able to get one. I am not fine with having to pay for them. I am even less fine with the potentially destabilizing effects of "free" abortions. - Rob Sterling
And, just like when it was illegal to have an abortion, making or keeping it artificially expensive just creates a black market. Prohibition does not, generally, work. It didn't work with alcohol, it's not working with drugs, and it didn't and will not work with abortion. - Bren
Further, since you seem concerned about saving lives, I assume you would also be in favor of criminalizing gun possession, right Rob? - Bren
+++++Bren - Anika
And eliminating the death penalty. - Bren
Also, there is one other factor that is tangential, generally a family takes care of their older members. The only way older members get taken care of as they age and become infirm is either the state or their own resources amassed over their working life. The argument overlooked and one approaching us is the dual circumstance of an increasing unmarried single female population growing older with limited to no savings and now because of divorce and the fallen economy no money and abortion, no family - Melanie Reed
@Rob: rocking the wrong boat, my friend. I know, for a fact, that it really does not have a destabilizing effect, The exact opposite, actually. And that's why in almost all European countries, even in the very catholic ones, abortion is legal. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
@Rene - If you accept that fewer abortions would occur if the price went up, then you are admitting that abortion demand has price elasticity. So the argument isn't whether there will be more abortions, it's how many more will occur. My guess is that dropping the price from several hundred dollars to something less than $50 will cause a huge surge - maybe a doubling. - Rob Sterling
And providing a universal, public option for health care that offers preventative care for all Americans, and does not preclude people with "pre-existing conditions" from obtaining medical service, right? - Bren
Rene: maybe this is what you were looking for: "Conclusions: Both developed and developing countries can have low abortion rates. Most countries, however, have moderate to high abortion rates, reflecting lower prevalence and effectiveness of contraceptive use. Stringent legal restrictions do not guarantee a low abortion rate." http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs... - Steven Perez
@Rob: your logic is simply unfounded. It has been proven that even offering free abortions does not increase the number of abortions. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Rob: you hit the nail on the head, when you said "my guess..." edit: because you have no data to support such a surge - Bren
@Rene - You are aware that most of Europe has a negative birthrate, right? That is extremely destabilizing. - Rob Sterling
@Rene It has been proven? LOL. Show me those numbers, please. - Rob Sterling
Rob: precisely. Se my comment above - Melanie Reed
@Bren - No one ever has data to prove what is GOING to happen in a society. Thank you for making such a conservative point. - Rob Sterling
@Rob: but that has absolutely zero to do with abortion. That has to do with the fact that, just like in the US, the trend is to start (too) late with having children. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
So you are guessing, then, Rob. Again, I would love to see how you went from "high incidences of non-white abortions" to " wiping out the black people", especially since most women in this country live in a county without basic reproductive services. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009... - Steven Perez
Show me a precedent for your assertion, though, Rob - Bren
whether a woman aborts a pregnancy is a decision between her and her doctor. if we deny funding for one option, then it has the effect of forcing someone into the other - Mike Chelen
Because I could say "my guess is that if you made abortion free, no one would ever have one again because they would not trust in the value of the service being provided." - Bren
Tiffany, not all of them. Too many of them find they are unable. If you are younger at this point it is easy to assume you have control of the future. You and I and they don't. - Melanie Reed
@Rene - I can't respond to anything else you write until you show me the proof. You're throwing out too many assertions without giving any foundation. - Rob Sterling
And I wasn't making a conservative point, Rob, I was asking you to provide some basis for your assertion that lowering abortion cost would increase the number of abortions. - Bren
@tiffany - Yes, but the U.S. is closer to balanced than most of Europe. I want the U.S. birth rate to go back into the positive range; cheap or free abortions would make that harder. - Rob Sterling
Why is it so important to you that we have more kids than anyone else, Rob? - Steven Perez
@Bren - You want a precedent for thinking that demand is elastic by price? Or specifically that cutting the price of a thing by 80% or more can at least double demand? - Rob Sterling
Yoo hoo, Rob! Over here! Yeah, me, the guy throwing facts your way! *waves arms* - Steven Perez
I'd like a precedent for Abortion, specifically, Rob. That's what we are talking about, right? it's not exactly like other consumer products. - Bren
@Steven - You're linking articles, not throwing facts. - Rob Sterling
Rob: are you saying that his sources are not valid? - Bren
No, I'm providing you with numbers, Rob, which are then attached to articles which support their theories, Rob. Sorry if that is too much for you to handle. I'll go back to hating on Limbaugh if you want. - Steven Perez
@Bren - Here's an article on price elasticity for medical services. Please remember that abortion is an elective procedure: http://stanford.wellsphere.com/healthc... - Rob Sterling
Bren it would be the same economic model that is studied and excepted from economists for lowering smoking rates by raising the price - Melanie Reed
@Bren - I'm saying that he should give an argument and then link his source. Not just hurl long articles at me here, while I'm arguing with half-a-dozen people. - Rob Sterling
And doing a bang-up job, except that you haven't actually responded to anything I've asked of you ;) - Bren
Says the guy who threw a dozen tables at me and then guessed at what might happen. I provided reasoned arguments that weren't hard to follow, Rob. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? - Steven Perez
I think I've responded to everything you've asked. You just didn't like the answers. - Rob Sterling
OK, Rob, in spite of me getting sleep. In the US 4 out of 20 pregnancies end in abortion (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...), in Holland and Belgium this number is 11 out of a 100 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki..., true source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...). The difference: abortion is legal in Belgium and Holland and still only quasi-legal in the US. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
@Steven - You ASKED for the work. I gave you the number and then linked the tables. Don't be a child. - Rob Sterling
And I repeat: Why is it so important to you that we have more kids than anyone else, Rob? - Steven Perez
Melanie: that is based on the principal that smoking is harmful in all cases, while the fact is that in some situations abortion is the best choice - Mike Chelen
@Steven - I don't care about how many kids other countries have. - Rob Sterling
No, you provided me with raw data and then hazarded guesses on what MIGHT happen. Not nearly the same thing, Rob. - Steven Perez
You have? I must have missed where you refuted that Roe v. Wade was just as Constitutionally based as all of the other issues I mentioned, or when you told me your stance on the death penalty, gun criminalization, and universal health care, since you are so concerned with saving lives... - Bren
@tiffany - FORCING? The only people potentially subject to force are those of us who don't want to be part of socialized medicine. - Rob Sterling
Or when you provided data to support your assertion that lower abortion costs would lead to higher abortion rates... - Bren
Mike it isn't for the baby, nor the future of that society since you and I do not know the contribution that child could have made, nor for the woman who doesn't know what her future will bring - Melanie Reed
@Steven - You're just not real good at this, are you? I gave you 503 of 1000 live births. A precise number, and then linked the table. - Rob Sterling
And then leapt to an unfounded conclusion, based on nothing you could point to other than a poorly chosen economic model, Rob. - Steven Perez from IM
@Bren - Since it hasn't happened yet, I can't show data to indicate that it will. Since nearly everything in the world has demand elasticity by price, I would think the burden to show why it WON'T effect abortion is really to be made by you. - Rob Sterling
I guess I'm asking too much for lefties to understand demand curves. If you understood supply and demand, your worldviews wouldn't be what it is. - Rob Sterling
Rob: denying funding for a medical treatment influences the decision more strongly for anyone that unable to afford the expense - Mike Chelen
Besides you are banking on the fact that you will be fertile later on: that is not always the case. Aside from the moral argument, you are playing with futures, both individual and community, that you do not have any information in which to make an informed decision. - Melanie Reed
And, Rob, I ask you to understand that you, as a man, do not have the authority to decide on what a woman is allowed or not allowed to do, because that's really what it comes down to. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Clearly there are people who have very low incomes that will find legal abortion to be more difficult to obtain if they have to pay the full price out of pocket. All the more reason why the procedure should be covered by insurance. The last thing the world needs is more unwanted children of parents with low incomes. - Jason Wehmhoener
I see, Rob. The problem isn't your lack of a coherent theory. It's my politics and intelligence that's the problem. - Steven Perez
@Rene - What? I am not deciding what anybody can do. You are. - Rob Sterling
So there is no precedent, even in countries where abortions are free and widely available for abortion rates rising dramatically? - Bren
@Steven - I'm glad you've come to accept that. - Rob Sterling
No, I'd like to give women the option of a choice. I would never take that choice away, or worse, make it illegal. And how do I decide what you do? - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Yeah, must be that brown pigmentation that does me in, Rob. - Steven Perez
Steven: I didn't see Rob use race as a qualifier, I think it is unfair to assume that. - Bren
Melanie: isn't a child better off if they are born to a parent capable of raising them? - Mike Chelen
@Steven - I don't even know what race you are. But thanks for going as low as you can go, in less than hour. That's character, right there. - Rob Sterling
I agree, Bren. Completely unfounded. Like his entire argument. I leapt to an erroneous conclusion based on an inherent bias towards people on his side of the aisle. See how easy that was? And I didn't even need a link. - Steven Perez
Melanie: the question of health risk regarding future pregnancy is exactly the sort of issue that should be carefully discussed by a woman and her doctor. since the choice effects the woman's future so strongly, isn't it unfair to try and make that decision for her? - Mike Chelen
@Bren - I am researching that right now. But increased demand for services once prices drop is a major problem for socialized medicine systems in Europe. It's why things that are expensive but quick here, like MRIs, have such long wait lists in some other countries. - Rob Sterling
Don't sweat it, Rob. You know how we Mexicans can get about that kind of thing. So sensitive all the time. - Steven Perez
Mike, are you saying, given the assumed awful life you have had (I am assuming for arguments sake) that if you had been given the choice (which these children are not being given) that you would have said "no, I don't want to be born. Please abort me. I don't like the life I'm going to get."? Joy does not arise from the amount of money you have. The triumph of life has been seen through all circumstances. - Melanie Reed
Steven: I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I may not agree with Rob's politics, or his interpretation of the constitution, or his lack of empathy for the needs of people outside of his immediate social strata, but I would not immediately assume that he is either a bad person, or a racist. - Bren
@Rob: I'm interested in your research for that. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Rob: changing the price actually affects the supply curve, not the demand curve (in classical economics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Mike Chelen
Given that Rob's whole argument can be best summed up as some sort of "white man's burden" to save the black race in the name of economics, Bren, I'm not sure I can give him equal latitude. - Steven Perez
Steven: funny thing is there are other measures such as use of prophylactics that we could probably all agree on, which would actually affect the demand curve - Mike Chelen
@Bren - This is anecdotal but doesn't include enough numbers to be too useful: http://www.euthanasia.com/vietnam... - Rob Sterling
Fair enough, Steven. I am not here to tell you what to think or not think, but the way I read his argument was more along the lines of: "those who are in favor of cheap abortions are in favor, de facto, of decimation of brown people of all sorts in the US." - Bren
@Rob: I understand that some elective medical procedures follow the rules of economic supply/demand curves, but I think it's unreasonable to assume that abortion will follow the same pattern: yes, if MRIs are cheap and available, lots of people will use them, they're a diagnostic tool. Same goes for other preventative, diagnostic, or cosmetic procedures. But abortion is a whole different thing: it's a family planning and lifestyle decision that's influenced by a very wide number of factors other than economics. - Louis Simoneau
Mike, true, health classes in high school should be demonstrating the proper usage of condoms. Heck, I'd go so far as to say health classes should be distributing condoms. - Jason Wehmhoener
@Mike - Changes in price affect both supply and demand. At a higher price, more people are willing to supply it, fewer to buy it. And vice-versa as prices decline. - Rob Sterling
Rob: that article about Viet Nam describes a situation that is significantly different: the government of Viet Nam is actively *encouraging* abortion as a birth control method, not just subsidizing the price. - Bren
Mike, years ago this wasn't even an issue. If you are familiar with ancient cultures the birth of a child was not seen as the burden as it is today (and we have more money than they did and more medical options for comfort and traumatic care. You can't survive everything and t one point we are all going to die. But we who are here have at least been given our chance. I for one am not afraid to die. What has happened that women have turned from what used to be a joy and an amazing gift no matter what your economic level to one that is to be feared, considered a burden and a distaste to be disposed of in the trash of life? - Melanie Reed
Fair enough, Bren. I happen to think that black people are smart enough not to abort themselves out of existence. - Steven Perez
@Bren - Subsidizing a thing, i.e. making it cheaper, is encouragement. When the government subsidizes a thing, we get more of it. That is the usual purpose of subsidies. - Rob Sterling
I agree, Steven. - Bren
Tiffany, I am glad for your mother It does not happen that way for everyone. I am just asking you to realize that a woman cannot always count on finding a husband nor in getting pregnant by any other means. It is not a non-issue. - Melanie Reed
Rob: that is not what I meant, and you know it. The level of intellectual dishonesty in your arguments makes it very hard to take your points seriously. The same is true, I have found, generally among conservatives. - Bren
"If you are familiar with ancient cultures the birth of a child was not seen as the burden as it is today" Anyone who's read Greek or Roman myths can start laughing *looks at stopwatch* right. now. - Spidra Webster
I have also noticed that sort of intellectual dishonesty among people on the left, I should say. - Bren
Yes, Tiffany I know abortion dates back to Roman times. Do you know what happened to th Roman empire? - Melanie Reed
Rob: by moving the supply and demand curves the point of intersection changes, but not the other way around - Mike Chelen
@Bren - I am being extremely straightforward. My whole argument is based entirely on a centuries-old, proven reliable economic theory. You don't want to accept it because it conflicts with what you WANT to be true. - Rob Sterling
It is really hard for me to comprehend this emotion that there is some reason to see declining birth rates as threatening. I see population pressure creating public health and environmental issues worldwide, including the United States. I just don't get it. - Jason Wehmhoener
Louis: MRI cost influences the supply curve, the overall rate would still depend on the demand curve - Mike Chelen
@Mike - No, the price of intersection is just one snapshot. Ex: If t-shirts are going for $50, more people will want to get in the t-shirt business than if they're going for $5. - Rob Sterling
@Jason - Declining birth rates are a very bad thing. They are destabilizing and create social problems, especially in support of the elderly. They're something to wish on your enemies, and to try to avoid at home. - Rob Sterling
no. that is not true, Rob. again. that's okay. I can see that we will get nowhere in this discussion, because you want to treat abortion as though it were the same as any other commodity, and that price is the primary factor keeping the rate of abortion where it is, or that lowering the price will somehow raise the abortion rate (which you can not show one single precedent for). - Bren
For those of you wondering, here's the original quote: ""You think abortion is wrong? Don’t have one. I think killing people is wrong, so I’m not in the army. My tax dollars still go to fund it, though (in fact about 21 cents of each of my tax dollars). My tax dollars also go to keep prisoners on death row even though I think the death penalty is morally wrong. My tax dollars fund Guantanamo and Bagram, extraordinary rendition, and Jim DeMint’s salary, all of which I find disgusting. So why is abortion, a legal medical procedure, so remarkably different that we have to go overboard making sure tax dollars don’t fund it?"" - Steven Perez
and you want to use a "centuries old, proven economic model" to advance *your* moral code. - Bren
@Rob, unwanted children also create significant social problems. These issues aren't well solved by blanket statements. We need the right to choose so that appropriate choices can be made for unique situations. - Jason Wehmhoener
@Bren - I just want my country to avoid the social mistakes other countries have made. - Rob Sterling
where is the evidence of these social mistakes, Rob? edit: still, I wait for anything resembling a precedent for the astronomic rise in abortion you are foretelling... - Bren
@Jason - Women who don't want children but get pregnant should abort them or put them up for adoption. - Rob Sterling
And from there, we ended up talking about why our country would be economically destroyed if the black people, who some believe are collectively dumber than a bag of hammers, had ready access to free abortions and accidentally aborted themselves into oblivion. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out. - Steven Perez
I think he's afraid of being unwanted and uncared for in old age. Sadly, forcing women to have children isn't likely to solve that problem. - Jason Wehmhoener
@Rob, ok, so can the abortion be covered by insurance then? - Jason Wehmhoener
Does everyone here know about Margaret Sanger? Just asking. - Rob Sterling
tiffany: <3 - Bren
@Jason - If an insurance company wants to offer that, sure. I don't run an insurance company. - Rob Sterling
On a separate note: I love how some folks don't think that this country isn't smart enough to take someone else's good ideas (like democracy, fer instance) and apply it to our own situation. We can't have socialized medicine because it wouldn't work? So adapt it to fit. That's what we do. That's how this country was made great - we took everyone else's good ideas and made them work. Apparently, though, we're not that smart anymore. Shame, really. - Steven Perez
I deleted that last comment, because it was reductive in the extreme, and would only serve to take us backward in the conversation. - Bren
@Bren - No, I would not be running an insurance company. And I would no longer have a choice about where I buy my insurance and what plan I purchase. - Rob Sterling
really? I haven't seen that plan, Rob... could you link to it? - Bren
Steven: with all this, how do you find time to NaNo your WriMo? - Brent
The only HCR bills I have seen do nothing to eliminate private insurance. - Bren
I doubt you've seen any plan. Have the Democrats finally got around to putting the bill online? - Rob Sterling
@Rob, really? You wouldn't have a choice of insurance? Citation, please. - vicster
You mean, this one, Rob? http://docs.house.gov/rules... - Steven Perez
phew, ok, time for me to punch out on this idiocy. - Jason Wehmhoener
"Wow, Steven, how'd you find that?" "Well, kids, there's this thing called Google ..." - Steven Perez
Are you kidding, Rob? I posted this http://ff.im/6VIfE , on August 20. - Bren
@Bren - I'm not going to get into a larger discussion about socialized medicine and what may or may not come out of the conference committee. All I'm interested in here is the original free abortion discussion and social consequences. - Rob Sterling
Sen. Max Baucus, for example, six weeks ago: http://www.reddit.com/r... - Rob Sterling
Anyway, this is silly. If abortion gets cheaper, more people will want them. I thought that would be self-evident to everyone, but I guess not. Good night. - Rob Sterling
And yet, Rob, two people in this thread found it quickly. - Steven Perez
Rob: the notion that if abortions get cheaper more people will want them is just intellectually lazy and dishonest. I'm done, with this conversation. - Bren
@Bren, you just took the words right out of my keyboard! - vicster
What Bren said. - Steven Perez
T. Brent: uh oh, I knew I forgot something. o_O - Steven Perez
First they screamed about having to pay for the education, feeding and housing of other people's children. Now they're screaming about the possibility of paying a LOT LESS to avoid paying for the education, feeding and housing of other people's children. It really doesn't make any sense to me. - MiniMage, enterRUPPted
Me, neither. And I was here for all of it. - Steven Perez
That was my point from the beginning, Dragon. Abortions are not subject to the same market forces as, say, tee shirts. The argument that lowering the price would boost demand is just not supportable. The counterargument, that raising the price astronomically would lower the rate of abortion is fine, but not relevant. What Rob was saying is there, essentially "a:b :: b:a" which is not always true. - Bren
Dear internet people, arguing about abortion is completely pointless. - iTad
In any case, I would guess that Rob is morally opposed to abortion, and sees readily available reproductive health services as a social ill. Instead of being honest and saying that, he tried to use economics to make his case, but was unable to really do so. Tad: in the current environment, there is actually a point to debating this, though normally I would agree with you. - Bren
Dear Tad: do I tell you how to have fun on a Sunday night? :D - Steven Perez
Someone, perhaps not Rob, also tried to instill fear (oh noes, the brown people will disappear!) instead of arguing morality. Wait, that's not fair. Perhaps frightening people wasn't intended. - MiniMage, enterRUPPted
-- depends what abortion - that one in case of rape, mother's life in danger or incest should be mandatory by law. .. that other one - 'oops we do not want family now' .. i would leave it legal and available, but discourage it - pb:
Melanie: that only considers two possible outcomes, when there are many different kinds of situations. many children are thankfully born healthy, yet in other case there can be significant and dangerous medical issues - Mike Chelen
Rob: the prices at which vendors might sell a good is the supply curve, and the price elasticity of supply is its overall slope - Mike Chelen
*skipping a whole bunch of comments* Dear Rob, Don't worry about black genocide. Lots of black people will keep pumping out the babies, promise. I bet a few of them will even end up having their entire existence paid for by the government (yay poverty!). Hope you're ready to pay for those babies you insist people have. - EricaJoy
I don't think it's wrong, but I don't think that killing people is still right. People should think before they bring kids to this world. Sometimes it's better not to bring a child to this cold and crazy world as there is already so many suffering from bad homes, and many doesn't even have no food. If we would take care of them first it would be great. All depends on everything. There is really no right or wrong answer. Everybody has their own opinions and that is everybody's right. This may sound harsh but just the way I think (and now u can hate me). - Neya
Frivolous abortions are wrong, just like frivolous litigation. Gender equality in heath care, however, is a must. To deny women the same access to health care is barbaric and wrong. And a big part of women's health care is preventive health care including birth control options. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher
Tiffany (though I have a feeling you won't see this) - a woman's fertility starts to markedly decline after age 35. There are also more risks during pregnancy and birth after that age. Also the assumption that all healthy women are fertile is very wrong. Then you have subfertility, secondary infertility... Remember too that there is a difference between infertile and sterile. I am infertile and I have a son. - Melly Botts
+++++++++ Trish. - Lix