"In a year when more families than ever have asked for help, several programs providing Christmas gifts for needy children require at least one member of the household to be a U.S. citizen. Others ask for proof of income or rely on churches and schools to suggest recipients. The Salvation Army and a charity affiliated with the Houston Fire Department are among those that consider immigration status, asking for birth certificates or Social Security cards for the children. [...] The Outreach Program requires parents to show photo identification and birth certificates or Social Security cards for the children. [The Outreach Program's Lorugene] Young said she makes an exception if parents can show they have applied for legal status or that a child is enrolled in school." - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet

Good!! - Jeff P. Henderson

:( - Anna Haro

I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. I think it's sad if they won't give gifts to everyone, but they are their gifts to do with what they want. - Sparky, lurking

Yep, nothing embodies the spirit of holiday cheer like "let's see some ID, kid". - Steven Perez

How sweet. - John (bird whisperer)

That must be more of that Christian holiday spirit I keep hearing about. - Steven Perez from IM

I guess helping those in need isn't part of the equation, either. - Steven Perez from IM

Keep going, Mr. Scrooge. I'm sure making the children work on Sundays for a reduced rate is really good for them. After all, have we no workhouses? - Steven Perez from IM

How do illegal immigrants feed off our economy? This kind of 'handout' is very rare. The immigrants I see are hard workers who earn what they get from our economy. - Sparky, lurking

Sparky, when illegal immigrants work 60 hour weeks for $2/hour to produce cheap food, they're really taking money from citizens! - Andrew C (✓)

grinch, scrooge, kill-joy... the other names that come to mind aren't fit to print. - MikeAmundsen

Yes, Jeremy, I'm sure that little Pablo is up late at night, thinking "Geez, if Papa hadn't hoofed it across deserts, braving dumbass Minutemen and scorching heat and thirst, just to come to this country and do scut work for below minimum wage, just so I could have a better life for myself and my siblings - why, if Papa had just stayed at home, Santa would have brought me a Wii!" Kindly peddle your thinly-veiled racist ideas elsewhere, sir. - Steven Perez from IM

when i contemplate the common birth saga of Jesus (including the reason Mary and Joseph were traveling at such a critical time) it seems quite likely that those in charge passing out gifts in Jesus' honor don't have a clue. same for the anyone else who think this stinginess has a rightful place on this holiday. - MikeAmundsen

Jeremy - they neither pay taxes nor vote because they are not permitted to. I don't see how them working for $2/hr takes money away from citizens. The same citizens are welcome to do the work they do, they just choose not to. - Sparky, lurking

I would also suggest that they do pay taxes. Do they buy anything with the money they make? If so, they're paying taxes. Do they pay rent? If so, the money they pay goes towards property taxes. The only thing they aren't paying are income taxes and they likely wouldn't make enough money to be required to pay them anyway. - Kenton

Most illegal immigrants are paying taxes, they are just doing it with someone else's SSN. They are the exact opposite of burdens on the system since they enable us to continue to pay relatively cheap prices on produce. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Jeremy - agreed that the employers are breaking the law, but having grown up in a farming community I know just how expensive labor can be. Many farms simply couldn't make it paying minimum wage to workers. If they did our food would be astronomically more expensive - upwards of 2-4x the price for all base ingredients. - Sparky, lurking

Wait, what? It isn't illegal to work for $2 an hour...it's illegal for a BUSINESS to pay someone $2/hr. The blame there is entirely on American consumers and the businesses that hire undocumented workers. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

And how do you propose finding out which parents are lawbreakers or not, Jeremy? Shall we also do background checks for felonies or arrests, as well? Shall we see which parents have bilked on their taxes? Or do we just check on the "lawbreakers" who offend us most? - Steven Perez

Sparky, FWIW, I was being sarcastic. - Andrew C (✓)

So Jeremy, you're advocating that a police check be done on anyone requesting gifts from the Salvation Army? And I suppose an IRS audit to make sure they aren't overdue on their taxes. - Kenton

I am always mildly surprised at people who hide behind the law when circumstances are convenient. If we were discussing, say, foreign wars or illegal detentions or civil liberties lost, these same people can't wait to run to the willing embrace of those who bleat about "security". But let it get out that someone less fortunate then they are getting something for nothing - whether the gift be cheap plastic toys or health care - and suddenly they become paragons of justice, often to mask their own insecurities or fears. It would be almost comical, were it not so pathetic. - Steven Perez

What about the burden that is placed on tax payers to educate and provide health care to all of the illegals in the US? That is definitely taking away from all of us who pay income and property taxes as well as pay for our own health insurance. - Jeff P. Henderson

I'm still waiting to hear how punishing children for things beyond their control somehow alleviates the problems. - Steven Perez

Seems to me that the Salvation Army has a right to decide how and to whom it distributes it's gifts to. Do the not? - Jeff P. Henderson

@jeremy: IMO, 'conditional generosity' is an embarrassment. holiday toy give-aways should not be treated as some 'welfare program' limited to only certain individuals who are 'eligible' to receive the gift. finally, using children as a way to root out suspected criminal adults is a callous act at any time of year; even more so at Christmas. Scrooge is surely dancing in his grave upon learning of this. - MikeAmundsen

Depends, Jeff. Do I still have the right to call their tactics covertly racist? - Steven Perez from IM

You're absolutely right Jeff, they do. However if it is going to be because the parents are doing something illegal, they need to do it for all laws, not just one of their choosing. Otherwise Steven is exactly right in calling it covertly racist. - Kenton

I suppose you can call it what ever you want, but the way I took their statement is that they don't want to give handouts to illegals. They would rather give them to the many needy people in this country legally. I don't see any racial overtones in what they said at all. - Jeff P. Henderson

And quite frankly, who at the Salvation Army decided that carding parents was ever a good idea? I must have missed that memo. - Steven Perez

Jeff - they absolutely have the right to decide who to give their gifts to. I don't think anyone is denying that. Personally I just think their choice is a little sad. - Sparky, lurking

What i am hearing from several people here is that they don't think it is OK to penalize the children of illegals for bad decisions that their parents made. In principle I would a agree, but the problem is that the burden placed on tax payers to to educate and provide health care for all of those innocent children is at the point of bankrupting states Like CA and TX. The problem is that the US government has not done enough keep the illegal parent out of the country before they have children. - Jeff P. Henderson

But again Jeff; how is not giving a toy to their kid going to change that? - Kenton

Sparky, it is very sad! The US government is at fault for not protecting or controlling the borders properly and for not creating a realistic immigration policy that makes it easy for those who follow the rules to become legal citizens. - Jeff P. Henderson

I still fail to see how giving brown kids a free toy somehow translates to encouraging felons. - Steven Perez from IM

Kenton, it's not, but how would you feel if you were a lifelong TX resident and legal US citizen who really needed help and that help was given to an illegal alien? - Jeff P. Henderson

Using your argument, Jeff, we might as well shut down soup kitchens and shelters, too. And stop using Spanish in state business. After all, we wouldn't want to encourage illegals, would we? - Steven Perez from IM

Steven, the if it was not so easy to make a living or to receive a free education or free healthcare or other free assistance, people would think twice about coming to the US illegally. - Jeff P. Henderson

@Jeff: this is not about taxpayers or healthcare or bankruptcy. it's about kids' toys; for the holidays. - MikeAmundsen

Mike, I realize that, but it it's a symptom of the bad immigration policy here in the US. - Jeff P. Henderson

Your argument, Jeff, has a major flaw. People don't come here for free anything. They brave the obstacles to make a better life for their families. - Steven Perez from IM

You mean my kid didn't get a toy for Christmas? Being neither Texan (nor American for that matter) nor in need of help from the Salvation Army I think it is difficult to say. Hopefully I'd remember all that Christmas spirit hoo haa and be happy that at least someone's kid was getting a gift. - Kenton

And let's follow the Salvation Army's logic to its end. Little kid doesn't get a gift. Then what? His parents will be moved to ... what, exactly? - Steven Perez from IM

@Jeff: symptom/shymptom. the article documents a terrible idea that should not be repeated or justified. how the country deals w/ immigration details has no place in the context of handing out toys. let's start a thread to talk about immigration practices in the US and carry on there. - MikeAmundsen

Steven, they come here because it is easy to get a job that pays more than they can get where they came from. And that is because our government allow it to happen. - Jeff P. Henderson

And I'll tell you what living most of my life in this state has taught me, Jeff: all the coded racist BS that gets spread around this state. - Steven Perez

And why do they do that, Jeff? Why do they cross deserts and brave racist assholes? For money? Shit, just stay home and become a criminal, if that's all you ever want. - Steven Perez

How does race enter into this discussion?? - Jeff P. Henderson

Right around the part of the above article that mentions "immigration status". - Steven Perez

Huh!?! - Jeff P. Henderson

So anyone that has a problem with people coming to the US illegally automatically is labeled racist? I don't buy it. - Jeff P. Henderson

You did read the article, didn't you, Jeff? - Steven Perez

The linked Yglesias post says "I'm not sure what sense it makes to say that "the point" isn't "to punish the children" since the /method chosen/ is the punishment of children. " - Andrew C (✓)

Yes and I don't see race mentioned anywhere. - Jeff P. Henderson

I see. The Salvation Army was too subtle. They should have said, "We're not gonna let those wetback beaners have any shit unless their parents cough up some ID." THEN we can talk about race. - Steven Perez

I think it is easy to call it racist (whether or not it is) when they are picking on a specific lawbreaker who is typically only one race. They need to make it anyone who is breaking the law (outstanding traffic tickets, behind on their rent, not filing a tax return, wanted for a crime etc.) no specifics, no exceptions. - Kenton

By way of digression: white people in the Midwest back in the 60s never called Dr. Martin Luther King a "nigger" in polite company. That's what uncouth rednecks down South did. No, Dr. King was a "troublemaker" who "needed to go back to church" and "mind his own business". It's coded racism, Jeff, and it really hasn't changed, especially here in Texas. Recently, talk about "doing something illegal immigration" - especially in this state - is basically code for "ship all the Mexicans out". I could point to no less than a dozen minor examples of this attitude in the last 15 years or so, and this is just the latest example. - Steven Perez

Do you speak for all Texans, Jeremy? - Steven Perez

I'm not surprised, Jeremy. If it wasn't for Austin, the state tourism income would be lower by an exponential degree. - Steven Perez

And since you brought up the local economy, Jeremy: are these same red-blooded Texans the ones who still think that the big-box store and strip malls are the pinnacle of architectural expression and economic freedom, even when they destroy the local economy? - Steven Perez

And since we're asking screwball questions in an attempt to derail the conversation, Jeremy: why do you "Texans" hate America? - Steven Perez

Le sigh. Christmas giving isnt the spot to get political, methinks, and that was a poor choice by the Salvation Army. But you also have to admit that illegal immigration is...illegal. That's got nothing to do with holidays or race. it's a matter of filing the paperwork. And it's a damned shame for the kids who had no choice in the matter when they're punished for their parents' decisions. - ωαřмaiden BrokerPokerface

And that's the point, Colleen. There are plenty of times to deal with illegal immigration. This is not one of them. - Steven Perez

Steven - agreed. - ωαřмaiden BrokerPokerface

Two things: 1) My name is at the top of the page. Spell it right. 2) If you honestly believe the crap Perry and his merry band of cutthroats have been spinning about the state's financial health, then you really need help, of the sort that I can't provide. - Steven Perez

Aside from all of these other issues, am I the only one here who has trouble with the idea of providing people in this organization with social security numbers of children. Children are victims of identity theft and often it isn't discovered until that child is older and tries to get a credit card. If I had children, I would not want to give random people in the organization access to this information. - Katy S

@katy - yup. And seriously - a SSN to get a toy? RLY? - ωαřмaiden BrokerPokerface

Remind me again, Jeremy: where was Enron based? - Steven Perez

Geez, Jeremy. Projection is a very ugly thing. I'm going to go ahead and kill the thread now. Just remember: racism is still ugly, no matter how many dollar bills you hide it behind. - Steven Perez from IM