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Shannon J Hager › Likes
Flickr Nukes DMU - http://thomashawk.com/2009...
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Ricardo Liberato, Holger Eilhard, Nispell and 32 other people liked this
Flickr is such a disappointment. The only thing more disappointing is that Zooomr never quite made it over that last hump that could have made it a real alternative.
- Jeremy Brooks
talking about the group deletion in the FF DMU group right now: http://friendfeed.com/dmu
- Thomas Hawk
care to explain for those unfamiliar with DMU what it was all about?
- Michael Bravo
"Flickr just nuked deleteme uncensored. A group with a long tradition on Flickr with over 5,000 posts and 3,000 members all gone, instantly. Flickr objected to discussions in the group which they said violated Flickr’s TOS. This was done without warning. Rather than delete a single offending thread or offer any type of alternative arrangement flickr simply nuked the group. It is clear...
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- RAPatton
from iPhone
Micheal DMU was a very popular group on flickr. It was an uncensored forum that had lasted about 4 years. Many of us spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in there. It had a rich and unique history. It was one of the most active forums on flickr and they just nuked it out of existence. It was also one of the few uncensored forums on flickr. It's a sad day actually.
- Thomas Hawk
wow that's disturbing
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
I was one of the founders of the group and shared admin responsibility with three others. There was no warning given to me. Poof. One minute it was completely gone, obliterated, followed by a notification that it had been deleted and the following note as explanation from Heather Champ: "Unfortunately, recent events in DMU have escalated to such a point that we can no longer host your...
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- Thomas Hawk
shared: http://friendfeed.com/smluniv...
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
@jeremybrooks "... The only thing more disappointing is that Zooomr never quite made it over that last hump that could have made it a real alternative ..." Disagree. Zoomer is always going to be an alternative when flickr keeps deleting without transparency and without a restore. I'm just kicking myself I didn't consider zoomer when I added flickr redundancy at smumug.
- Peter Renshaw
and just like that flickr locks down the thread in the help forum complaining about the group being nuked. http://www.flickr.com/help...
- Thomas Hawk
@Peter: Don't get me wrong. I love Zooomr -- I post everything there as well as to Flickr. It showed so much promise at first though, and some of the features have not been developed fully. They still have some features (like Portals and SmartSets) that Flickr does not have.
- Jeremy Brooks
Heather Champ's (the community manager who deleted the group at Flickr) tweet within minutes of the time she nuked the group: "I hate your freedom."
- Thomas Hawk
the problem is though Luke anything can be deemed to violate Flickrs TOS/CG. You can have your account deleted or your forum deleted on Flickr for being "that guy."
- Thomas Hawk
What kind of posts or comments led to breaking the ToS? Just curious.
- Sally Church
killing over 5,000 conversations in a forum with over 3,000 members, many hours long, built by people who put an *enormous* amount of energy into them of which 99.9% had no violations of any measure is overkill of massive proportion. Flickr could have easily killed any individual thread that they felt violated their TOS. This, compounded with the fact that there was no warning given nor any previous violation on the part of this group is a massive overreaction on Flickr's part.
- Thomas Hawk
I'm not sure 100% Sally, I suspect that it was the post where a user made threats of violence yesterday in the group. Still Flickr could have warned or deleted that user account if that was the issue, they did not need to nuke 5,000 conversations permanently and irrevocably. Many of these threads contained specific information about photography, gear, cameras, etc.
- Thomas Hawk
Pat there were not vulgar personal attacks on flickr staff in dmu. Why would you say that? There are a few in the new dmu now (none by me) but that's because people are really pissed off about having their group nuked after investing thousands of hours in it. Why would you say that there were vulgar personal attacks on Flickr staff in dmu before flickr nuked it. That's simply not true.
- Thomas Hawk
Pat that email was sent *after* the group was already nuked. Obviously people who put hundreds of hours and an incredible amount of energy and emotion into an online group were upset when flickr nuked it. They didn't have to nuke it. They could have, for instance, locked it down and removed whatever offended them at least leaving a rich archive that was largely inoffensive. That link...
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- Thomas Hawk
I find it a bit perplexing that people think nuking based on 'terms of service' is ok without warning or wonder why you bother with the service. I think it's part of the essence of community not to simply move every time some idiot gets into power (think about how many Mayors or jerky bureaucrats you've met in your life)...and in stead fight to try and ensure a healthy community....
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- leigh himel
I would comment on this, but I don't want Flickr to nuke me.
- James Myatt
WTF?
- Tyson Key
@Pat: did somebody mention the First Amendment (before you did?) How exactly does that fit here, in light of actions taken by a private party?
- Anthony Citrano
Pat indeed. Nobody is saying this is a first amendment issue except you. I've never said that flickr is not within their legal rights to delete whatever content they want. I've said it's bad business practice, reflects poorly on Yahoo and is in direct opposition to their current multi-million dollar marketing campaign. This is not a first amendment issue at all. Given that you know...
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- Thomas Hawk
and how is my saying that there were never any vulgar attacks on flickr staff an admission that flickr warned us to "play nicely" prior to nuking the group? There was never any warning from Flickr to the admins of the group that was nuked regarding it's deletion of any kind before Flickr nuked it. That's a fact. After the group was nuked, a new group sprung up (that I'm not a member of)...
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- Thomas Hawk
Pat the *only* communication between Flickr staff and the admins of the group prior to the group deletion is below. The group was completely destroyed within seconds of receiving this email: "Hi Thomas Hawk, ** This warning is being sent to all admins of DMU ** In joining Flickr, you agreed to abide by the Yahoo! Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. Specifically, you must not...
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- Thomas Hawk
Forgive me for just making the connection now, but this is obviously a direct result of the Thomas <-> James swordfight, no?
- Anthony Citrano
I believe it is Anthony. I was never informed by Flickr as to the exact issue that they had with the thread though.
- Thomas Hawk
Why did you opt to leave that out of this story? Not picking on you, but now that I'm aware of that situation, the context it adds seems conspicuous by its absence.
- Anthony Citrano
Anthony, first off, I'm not even sure that's what it is. The email nuking the group was vague and ambiguous. They've never communicated with me the reason. I'm speculating on my part. It would assume that it was related to that. But I'm not really sure "why" the group was deleted is so relevant. If you have two people who have an issue (one of whom is making threats of violence which is...
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- Thomas Hawk
Thomas, I know how hard (impossible) it is to see something objectively when you're right in the middle of it - but from where I sit, here on the outside, there's no real doubt that your and James’ horseplay was the catalyst for the group deletion. You said it's not relevant, and perhaps you're right, but to me it seems like an important part of the story.
- Anthony Citrano
It's certainly been reported many places Anthony, including my own blog prior to the group being nuked and as linked to in the help forum where I'm still banned in my post yesterday. It certainly was not omitted purposely. This post here is actually very short and was written quickly after the group was nuked. I followed up with a more thoughtful post yesterday. But sorry if you felt all of those details should have been in this story as well. Happy to discuss any of them.
- Thomas Hawk
I would still maintain though that a skirmish between two members of a group (no matter *what* the skirmish) ought not to result in a group of 3,000 members being nuked without warning. If anything delete the accounts of the two individuals. Don't punish 2,998 members for the actions of 2. That said there were a lot of ways that Flickr could have handled this better including locking the group down but maintaining the 99.9% of the threads which were in no way considered offensive.
- Thomas Hawk
I didn't think it omitted maliciously; was just curious the logic behind the omission. But you've answered. To the second point, people need to separate two things: A: the action (the monkeybusiness b/w you two) and B: the reaction (by flickR). I know they are inextricably tied, but each do deserve discussion. The 2998 members were “punished” by both A and B. Just because B is idiotic...
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- Anthony Citrano
Flickr's behaviour was a bit abrupt, but DMU being deleted was an accident waiting to happen – the admins were never really entitled to host an 'uncensored' group, as they were always subject to Flickr's rules. And although the deletion related to one incident, DMU always had a very antagonistic atmosphere that had the propensity to give rise to abusive discourse. Also, this isn't the same as deleting someone's work; the only thing lost is old discussions that almost no one would have read again anyway.
- sally white
Oh Sally, you are so wrong. You were not a part of that community. We had a nine page thread called listen to DJ Mo. It was full of great music links. It was frequently accessed, it may sound stupid but we had a significant thread of gifs that we were all collecting together. Mo's stupid photography questions was a frequently accessed thread full of great photo advice for people,...
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- Thomas Hawk
Photographer James Rhodes Thinks It’s Ok to Threaten People With Violence on the Internet - http://thomashawk.com/2009...
Jeff P. Henderson, See-ming Lee 李思明 SML, Shannon J Hager and 9 other people liked this
I was deeply troubled by comments made in a Flickr forum that I admin by Photographer James Rhodes. His Flickr account is here where he goes by thevikingjames. He’s on Facebook here. For some reason Rhodes seems to blame me for internet harassment that he feels he’s suffered on the internet for admining an uncensored group on Flickr. He claims to have stalked me at the Dream Machines Show this past year in Half Moon Bay and has written that I didn’t know how close I came to being mugged by him at that event. Note. This is someone that I’ve never met in life and had no signficant interaction with on the internet prior to him making these sorts of threats. He’s made threats against other people in this internet forum as well. I’m not going to get into the details of this specifically, other than to say that I found it offensive that he’d suggest that he was stalking me at a public photographer event. And that he’d threaten physical violence against people over differences in photography...
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- Thomas Hawk
On his web site, he says he's "someone a bit more talented than [Thomas Hawk]." Yet I can't find any of his photos. And threatening your family is lower than low. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this, Thomas. Good luck.
- Celine Chamberlin
The sort of people who are capable of (and have a tendency to) carry out acts of violence, do it rather than talk about it on the internet. The sort that talk about it are usually morons who've been kicked around most of their lives and are just wannabe 'gangsters'. The internet is the only place that's going to happen and sadly for them, it only happens in a virtual, non real way. Not very satisfying. I wouldn't worry about him.
- Gary
Sad, very sad.
- ChiliMac
caution is advised
- imran
Ugly, hope it doesn't escalate anymore, if it does there should be enough grounds for some sort of legal action.
- Grant Bierman
: ( what is on his website right now is terribly disturbing.
- carlotta fancypants
yeah carlotta. I've blocked him here.
- Thomas Hawk
So let me get this straight: From Digg: "A troll came on to the DMU community on Flickr and started making death threats... Flickr deletes the beloved community... and lets the troll keep it's account to continue harassing Flickr users." Is that correct?
Shannon J Hager, Chip Mayhugh, Thomas Hawk and Ryan MacLean liked this
If this was discussed already, sorry. I have no clue how to use this "FriendFeed" contraption.
- boscbo
From what I know...that's exactly what happened.
- Chris Nixon
Which troll?
- Ryan MacLean
Viking James
- Pierre Honeyman
from iPod
Well I'll be... that in combo with Heather's Twitter update says *a lot*
- boscbo
I don't put any stock in Heathers twitter update having anything to do with DMU at all
- Pierre Honeyman
from iPod
That's half the story. Digg skips the part where TH threatened to blog about it, http://thomashawk.com/2009... and posted TVJ's home address & other personal info.
- Jake Rome
Got digg URL?
- Ryan MacLean
nvm found it.http://digg.com/d3172Db
- Ryan MacLean
I'm Calling Bullshit on the Whole New Yahoo "The Internet is Under New Management, Yours" marketing campaign. - http://blogs.wsj.com/digits...
Jess Dennis, Ryan Dearth, Mrsth and 14 other people liked this
“Don’t we all just expect the Web to be our own?” she said, explaining the idea behind the campaign. “That’s what consumers say they feel, and that’s what they want more of.” The rebranding effort includes a modified version of Yahoo’s well-known yodel, something she called “an essential part of Yahoo’s DNA, but I think we have to admit it’s a bit dusty.” Yahoo will use several new yodels, and the new campaign ends with one sung by a choir that ends with children’s laughter. The campaign uses new taglines as well, including “The Internet is under new management. Yours,” “Now the Internet has a personality. Yours,” and “There’s a new master of the digital universe. You.” They’ll be used in a series of accompanying static ads featuring nonprofessional models taken from the cities where the ads will run, Ms. Steele said.
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
Yes, because destroying thousands of hours of "your" work. Work that belonged to "you" Work that "you" were proud of, all without any sort of warning or ability to take corrective action -- that's exactly what Yahoo is about. And all the crappy money spent on new posters at the bus stop shelters doesn't change a damn thing. What a crock of shit.
- Thomas Hawk
Totally agree Thomas! Every time I see one of those dopey posters I cringe...
- Jeff P. Henderson
I have a lot to say on this. But tomorrow. The Flickr/Yahoo! attitude is that the internet is not yours. Heather Champ, Director of Community at Flickr, specifically talks about Flickr not being yours and if you don't like it that you should leave.
- Pierre Honeyman
Let's not assume that Heather really knows what the message is and how to deliver it.
- Ryan MacLean
Ryan if Heather is not on message with Yahoo Corporate then they have a problem. Either their message is total doublespeak or they've got a rogue employee on their hands. Neither one is acceptable really. The point is Yahoo is not about You if you screw over almost 4,000 users in an internet forum when you really didn't have to.
- Thomas Hawk
These same people that in some cases look almost *exactly* like the two in these ads and even like to jump around alot like they do, only with a camera. Screwing over those almost 4,000 people is most certainly NOT the internet under new management "yours." Many of these users that are now abandoning Yahoo's forums and moving over here to FriendFeed owned by one of their competitors Facebook.
- Thomas Hawk
+1 Cristo. I'm surprised that Yahoo! have persisted for so long, despite never really innovating, or providing any compelling reason to use their services. Still, I can't see them dying any time soon.
- Tyson Key
The whole idea of an ad campaign to tell us that the user is in control online is outdated...unless it's a retro 1997. Nothing visionary here, folks, move along. More thoughts on Yahoo's ad campaign here http://whispershout.blogspot.com/2009...
- jeff hammond
Heather Champ's tweet within minutes of nuking DMU on Flickr: "I hate your freedom."
Shannon J Hager liked this
Coincidence?
- Ryan MacLean
oof. ::hoping for a coincidence::
- Jess Dennis
What is DMU?
- Andrew
not about DMU
- Jakey
posted within minutes of DMU's deletion. Nice to know how Yahoo's staff feels about freedom. Personally freedom is something I believe in.
- Thomas Hawk
Let's call it a coincidence and move on...
- Ryan MacLean
she fucked DMU and I hate that. You helped TH.. not purposely, but still. It happened.
- Jakey
seriously Andrew, you just need to get over yourself, you made your bed by acting like an idiot and it ended up biting you in the ass. Stop being such a fucking whiny bitch.
- James Rhodes
GO THE FUCK AWAY
- Jakey
not an ice cubes chance in hell of that happening .... I'm willing to see just how far we can take this....
- James Rhodes
You have blocked James Rhodes, so all of James Rhodes's posts and comments are invisible to you. Un-block.
- Thomas Hawk
If you don't want to see James' comments anywhere on Friendfeed you can block him if you'd like. You not only will not see his posts that he starts, every comment on Friendfeed he posts will be invisible to you. I normally don't block people but in James' case I'm going to make an exception.
- Thomas Hawk
isn't it Ivan? He's probably posting in here right now and I can't see any of it. It's nice. Looking forward to Cody joining as well.
- Thomas Hawk
greasemonkey made that possible but u am mostly a casual observer
- RumNose
this motherfeed iPhone app is a little lacking for FF. any any better free suggestions?
- RumNose
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