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Sonny Gill › Comments
PREVIEW: September 25, 2009: Can you build community on Facebook? Here's an audio preview.
CmtyChat-Facebook.mp3 486 KB
Gordon Saunders liked this
I LOVE this topic. I will do everything I can to be here.
- Angela
Looking forward to having you here, Angela!
- Bryan Person
Great topic that I've been thinking about for a couple of weeks..I don't think many orgs approach FB like Community so we have an opp to nudge them forward..very excited!
- Chris Bailey
Chris: Glad you like the discussion topic. Ready for your contributions in 4 hours!
- Bryan Person
Should be a great chat and definitely something a lot of business are thinking about!
- Sonny Gill
Oh man! Thank for this #cmtychat topic Bryan! I am looking forward to learning so much!
- Arié Moyal
Great timing, we have just started building our FB fan page and looking at how we will use it to supplement our other community engagement activities.
- Angela Lawson
If you want a "not so great example" we have a FB page for our tradeshow. Since it happens every 2 years it is difficult to maintain. Difficult to keep it up to date, real and relevant for that length of time. Looking forward to learning what we can do to make it better and to help create a community. IMTS2010 is our event
- Lee Anne Orange
@Lee Ann: Want to share a link to the Page?
- Bryan Person
@Lee Ann: I deleted your other post. Just add the link to this thread, please.
- Bryan Person
I'm not a big fan of FaceBook because it's so laborious!
- Owen Greaves
Once you learn the ins and outs, like with other platforms, Facebook is very easy to use.
- Angela Lawson
Has anyone used Facebook Markup Language (FML) to build pages?
- Lou Ordorica
Not if you're trying to reach app users
- Arié Moyal
@Owen like Angela says, there is a higher barrier of entry cuz yr right..but I wouldn't say it's "easy to use"
- Chris Bailey
@Lou yes, I've been working on custom pages for clients
- Chris Bailey
My colleague @weinberg81 has been working with FML. with any new language, there is going to be a learning curve
- Angela Lawson
@Chris Cool! Can you share any links to resources or tutorials?
- Lou Ordorica
Q1 is up for everyone! :)
- Sonny Gill
The FBML developer wiki is really thorough, and any google search of FBML plus your topic will surface good results. http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index...
- Dave Weinberg
@Dave Thanks for the tip.
- Lou Ordorica
here is our fb page - http://www.facebook.com/search...
- Lee Anne Orange
WRAP-UP - September 4, 2009: An intimate and more quiet cmtychat on this sombre day. Thanks everyone that participated and shared some great views about the role of emotions in bonding communities, tactics for growth, how to invest and our top resources. See you next week.
Thank you for hosting, Richard.
- Lou Ordorica
Really appreciate you joining us today Rich. It is a quiet Friday overall, rightfully so, but thanks for everyone who made it today.
- Sonny Gill
Getting dark Sue, no mountains at the moment.
- Richard Millington
Always appreciate the input of those who join this chat! Thanks for recommendations and great thoughts.
- Starwind
Obrigada!
- Nancy White
Thanks for hosting Richard. Great questions!
- Tanya McGinnity
Q4 - September 11, 2009: How can you get better at building communities? What books and blogs should you read? What courses can you take? What things should you experience? What would make any community manager better?
Is it legit to share the book one co-wrote? (deeply aware of spamminess and self promotional foo foo)
- Nancy White
Go for it Nancy.
- Sonny Gill
Connie Bensen is always a great one to stay up on - www.conniebensen.com
- Sonny Gill
Rich also has a great community focused blog everyone should check it - http://www.feverbee.com/
- Sonny Gill
Does anyone else spend much time reading psychology/social psychology text? I've found by far the best advice and ideas come from these materials
- Richard Millington
I haven't rich - do you have good examples of material we should check out?
- Sonny Gill
For the intersection between community and technology, http://bit.ly/1qefTz (espe for work, CoP, etc)
- Nancy White
Amy Jo Kim's work on game mechanics always inspires me to think differently about community dynamics
- Nancy White
I think The Situationist has some fantastic material about dynamics and Amy jo kim on game dynamics too
- Richard Millington
I learn a ton also from the process arts/offline facilitation community. Eg Peter Block's book COMMUNITY
- Nancy White
I read Peter Block's book, I thought it had some great ideas but wasn't ideal for online communities.
- Richard Millington
watching/observing the group dynamics of communities very different from mine (domain, age, etc.)
- Nancy White
Psychology Today is a great read with information about cultivating friendships, how groups work and operate etc. Academic Earth also has a great series of lectures about social psychology.
- Richard Millington
@Richard, what I learned from Block's book was the critical role of questions. And how to use them to sharpen, focus, energize.
- Nancy White
the work on isociety at University of Maryland
- Nancy White
I've always enjoyed the psychology of people and what makes them react and do certain things. Probably part of what draws me to the people connection in social media.
- Sonny Gill
The work people are doing around images and video as community channels and artifacts (beyond our bread and butter of words, words, words)
- Nancy White
I hope everyone has read Sense of Community by McMillan and Chavis too. That's by far the single best piece I've read about developing communities.
- Richard Millington
Ah, adding that one to my lsit of books, Richard
- Nancy White
Nancy, I think questions are really key, too. They draw in the user - and beg their participation -- and provide users a place where they know their remarks will be read.
- Starwind
Nice reccos everyone - definitely some I've added to my list.
- Sonny Gill
@Sue it is research. Jenny Preece et al. They have a wiki and Facebook page. I;ll look for the link
- Nancy White
Actually, there is a pretty big disconnect between academic research and practitioners and their community. Focusing on some bridging would be a great learning oppty
- Nancy White
It's an online article Nancy, you can find an easy-reading version here: http://www.wright-house.com/psychol.... Should be req. reading.
- Richard Millington
Nancy, I really couldn't agree more with that statement. Community managers aren't taking advantage of the plethora of academic material about our work - and we really should.
- Richard Millington
Amazing the application of this material after so many years.
- Sonny Gill
Well, @sonny, we stand on shoulders, grow from roots, etc etc!
- Nancy White
Oops sorry, it is iParticipate, not iSociety http://www.facebook.com/home...
- Nancy White
@nancy, I'm glad I found another person who admires Amy Jo Kim! Hers was the first book that really inspired me when I started down the community management. Definitely ahead of her time.
- Lou Ordorica
Yeah, @Lou, she is SMART. Kathy Sierra is another one who really sees the patterns
- Nancy White
Amy Jo Kim is a great read for community work. Her work on Game Mechanics is very applicable.
- Richard Millington
Here's another one. Always participating in other communities, seeing other perspectives, enriches my knowledge and perpsective. Always keeps the "newbie" or beginner's mind available.
- Nancy White
I most like finding any group of people and trying to analyse what makes them tick. Whether it's Obama campaigners, stamp collecting club or a football team. You usually come back to the same few things. These are what I feel we need to focus on.
- Richard Millington
Nancy- Your 'beginner's mind' is very Buddhist - a philosophy that I rely on both at work and off hours.I like being able to bring my practice of no ego to the community manager role. Helps!
- Tanya McGinnity
@Tanya, it is a constant challenge for me. One of those things I always have to work on!
- Nancy White
Q3 - September 11, 2009: What's the best way to invest money in a community? If you had $50,000 to spend on your community what would you do with it? Hire a new community mgr? Host an event? Build a new website? Treat the top members? etc...
I think that goes into evaluating your community & organization and looking at what opportunities you have to grow and build your platform for future growth.
- Sonny Gill
I would spend the money developing extremely cool content that your community will devour.
- Lou Ordorica
As a fac/steward in small work and NGO communities, I'd fear it would kill the community! LOL
- Nancy White
Care to explain a litle deeper, Lou?
- Sonny Gill
I think building a site probably will return the most value over the long haul, though if you have a community in existence and it's not humming a community manager could be your best bet. He/she can add content, stimulate engagement/growth.
- Starwind
Agree. Evaluate where your community is first. If you're overloaded as a community manager you may need to get some help.
- Joe Kikta
More practically, one community in mind is spread over three tools. The confusion and lack of integration causes a lot of hair pulling. I'd start there, then invest slowly in diff things
- Nancy White
Good point Starwind. What do you need to help stimulate engagement/growth? Good question to ask yourself.
- Sonny Gill
One thing I'd advocate against is paying contributors to the community. It's a sure-fire recipe to destruction.
- Richard Millington
Sure - the initial draw for a community is actionable information that people can put to work right away. For example, I just bought an Ooma VOIP box to replace my telephone land line. I needed to figure out how to make it work my alarm system, and I found the answer on Ooma's support forums.
- Lou Ordorica
If you can invest the money in developing content that solves people's problems -- this may include hiring knowledgeable people -- you will see a good ROI.
- Lou Ordorica
I wonder if this is more of a scaling question? Perhaps the company you work for love your success and want to grow the community...how would you go about it?
- Richard Millington
Scaling --> and THRIVING
- Nancy White
Gotcha Lou. That makes sense. Giving your community more resources.
- Sonny Gill
@Richard, I think there needs to be coordination between marketing, sales, and community management to build a stronger presence and hit the growth goals.
- Lou Ordorica
Rich - looking at where your potential community is. Providing avenues for easy entry and access to information about your community. Reaching out to where they are and welcoming them in to where the cmty/resources/content will help them grow.
- Sonny Gill
Richard, what about community currency as "payment" --- badges for various levels of participation, perhaps.
- Starwind
Sonny, so all investments should be based upon solid data?
- Richard Millington
Starwind, I think that's fine, but the greatest thing about that is it's free and quick to do. What would you do with the other $50,000?
- Richard Millington
Richard - my comment was directed at your remark on paying contributors. =)
- Starwind
I think Sue has it right - 50K will result in fairly bare bones treatment. A new community needs a good platform/server - so if new, invest in that.Tailor the settings to those aspects of community you feel your members will find of greatest interest, and be sure that platform can provide a wide range of social solutions -- things you can turn off or on easily. An existing community needs an assessment, really, to determine how to spend additional funding.
- Starwind
@Starwind, you definitely want a solid and well-functioning platform. I definitely think community software is trending towards a commodity -- for example, blogging tools are cheap, as are hosting services. I would use an 80 / 20 rule, where most of the money is spent on people and skills, the rest on technology.
- Lou Ordorica
Throwing a question out there for everyone to wrap things up.
- Sonny Gill
Q1 - September 11, 2009: Is is ok to make your community furious at something/someone because it brings them closer together?
Is this manipulation or is it stimulation? Is the threat real or ginned up?
- Nancy White
I wouldn't really tread in this zone personally. I don't like getting folks riled up in a negative way to try to encourage community.
- Tanya McGinnity
I would think that's tricky. Unless everybody agrees you could end up alienating people in the community.
- Joe Kikta
Tanya, where do you draw the line? If you were running a community for Amnesty Int. would you not stir up anger against oppressive regimes? Or how about terrible customer service? Or a horrific event in the real world?
- Richard Millington
The blogging equivalent to link baiting? Depends on the context I think. I've seen examples of this in my car forum where people get fired up around certain touchy subjects - sometimes it divides people into 2 sides, other times people come together and share experiences.
- Sonny Gill
Joe, I'm not so sure that's the case. 9/11 created a whole never level of community amongst people and that again was at a time of emotional peak. The shared emotional connections really do bond people together.
- Richard Millington
Oooh.. Good point Richard. Touche! I think that there are specific communities dedicated to these causes but in the instance of a community of diverse folks who might not share the same global view on a topic, then it is a tough one.
- Tanya McGinnity
Shared emotions are critical, but authenticity is also critical, as is context. So no pat answer from this quarter!
- Nancy White
What about the opposite community building tactic shared joy. It's far rarer and more difficult to achieve (people get angry easier than they get happy).
- Richard Millington
I think those people who get angry quicker or have a negative state of mind tend to reign down on tactics that try to bring shared joy within the community. At least my experiences.
- Sonny Gill
Anyone have examples of shared joy building connections? I'd like to hear about those.
- Teresa Basich
Agree negative is easier to tap into, but also easier to get out of control. I'd rather stay positive, if possible.
- Joe Kikta
Good point, Sonny. I also think people who are negative/angry have a stronger voice or are more apt to speak up. Anger is intimidating. People might not want to confront someone and say, "Hey, this isn't productive."
- Teresa Basich
My favorite positive communities are http://www.operationnice.com/ and https://akoha.com/
- Tanya McGinnity
Thank you, Tanya!
- Teresa Basich
That's tricky sonny. I think people, throughout society and throughout history get angier easier than they do happy.
- Richard Millington
Joy (and sorrow) community http://www.shareyourstory.org. I think you get joy when there is authenticity and real passion for the topic or real personal connection.
- Nancy White
Would a community that's always happy become boring? Surely conflict and the range of emotions is part of human nature?
- Richard Millington
Richard - Are you trying to make the Cmty Chat angry and try some kind of experiment on us by asking this question!!! Just kidding!
- Tanya McGinnity
Teresa - also, though some people may seem negative, you touched on the word 'confrontational'. Not many people like to take that stance because it does look to be negative, but necessary in building perspectives also.
- Sonny Gill
Hate to get philosophical, but anger usually causes people to lose perspective, objectivity and focus.
- Joe Kikta
Another great point, Sonny. Do you think there's a way to build a similar perspective without using a negative bent, though? Not sure it's easily done, if able to be done at all.
- Teresa Basich
Q2 is up if you guys haven't scrolled up!
- Sonny Gill
Personally, I don't really need to encourage folks to discuss crappy or anger-inducing things in my community. It just happens because of life. Many ladies in the community I belong to are going through divorce, breast cancer, all sorts of things worth getting angry about and they share this in the community but they also share the joys they are experiencing too.
- Tanya McGinnity
Can joy do the same? We know that shared strong emotions do a great job of bonding a community. Ethically, it's dubious to use them without just cause - at least anger. But happiness is more acceptable?
- Richard Millington
It doesn't touch on such strong emotions as it does with the latter. Obviously the reason why it's harder to build off of, but IMO there are more opportunities when touching on other emotions to help build the community.
- Sonny Gill
I think individuals can break out of insularity by being controversial and stirring things up. For example, Beck wrote the song Loser to get noticed. I think this tactic can stimulate conversation and dialogue in a community, but if you play with matches you might get burned. :)
- Lou Ordorica
Lou, I think sometimes we're afraid of being controversial - it may stir up an element that has potential to turn some community members off. I think a fine line needs to be walked -- stimulate, rather than provoke, perhaps.
- Starwind
Q2 - September 11, 2009: What are your best tactics to grow your online community?
Giving the best user exp and customer service I can so members want to tell all their friends to join, using a keyword buy and contests to lure outsiders
- Megan
Listen and spend time developing the community along the needs and desires of members.
- Starwind
For worked based communities, something real and valuable that needs to be done. PURPOSE!
- Nancy White
The challenge here is reaching people who aren't already in your community. How do you get either a) referrals from existing members or b) promotion to outsiders?
- Richard Millington
This post http://bit.ly/c0qn0 from MarketingProfs, Kimberly Smith, is timely Peter Kim & Aaron Strout on branded-online community building, "Whether and How" Purpose & Best practices
- Diane Court
Nancy - I like that. Purpose is huge and showing/giving your community something to gravitate towards and make their own, provide feedback on, help grow.
- Sonny Gill
Regarding promotion, Richard - if a branded community, tap into the promotions the brand has underway. If a newsletter, promote the community there. Links from brand website to active community areas - blogs, forums, photos. Bring community to the brand site, feature relevant discussion topics to simulate views to join and participate.
- Starwind
Ask a juicy question that begs input beyond existing members
- Nancy White
Do you have any examples Nancy?
- Richard Millington
qs. 3 up.
- Richard Millington
I think questions have to really be tailored to the community -- "What turns you on about ..." "Do you think that we should..."
- Starwind
Sure Richard. In http://www.km4dev.org someone asked about how we really used lessons learned. It spawned deep convo that brought in new members as people "spread the word" (Twitter helps here)
- Nancy White
Give people a high return for their attention -- understand your audience by creating personas that describe who they are, what motivates and inspires them. Develop content and create experiences from their perspective - what really matters to them.
- Lou Ordorica
Good point re: personas Lou. So often we're quick to paint everyone with the same brush re: motivations, goals, desires.
- Tanya McGinnity
September 11, 2009 - RANDOM: Hey everybody - thanks for spending your Friday afternoon with us! @RichMillington is our guest host today so feel free to introduce yourself here and shoot any questions you want us to address.
Seems quiet out there. I guess 9/11 takes people's minds off their online communities and focuses them on their real world communities. Anyone have any questions?
- Richard Millington
Hopefully we can honor both types of communities today.
- Teresa Basich
That it does, Rich. Felt different today writing out the date but hopefully we have people remembering and also joining us on this day.
- Sonny Gill
As a Brit, it's tricky to identify at the same level as the USA
- Richard Millington
Understandable - reactions are different for each person here and their experiences with the tragic event. But communities still come together to support.
- Sonny Gill
Hey Sue - good to see ya.
- Sonny Gill
Hi guys. Do we have a particular topic today?
- Joe Kikta
First question one, it's an ethical, as well as topical qs.
- Richard Millington
Hi there. I'm back after a brief hiatus!
- Tanya McGinnity
Hey Tanya - glad you're back from your hiatus :)
- Sonny Gill
This morning, my office mates shared stories about where we were, what we were doing on 9/11. That day is imprinted in so many peoples minds.
Definitely is Lou. Feel free to put your comment in the 'random' thread so people can converse there.
- Sonny Gill
WRAP-UP - September 4, 2009: That hour flew! Thanks so much to everyone who contributed to an amazing chat today - you guys definitely rock! Enjoy the weekend everyone!
Really AWESOME chat chat today, Sonny. Thanks for moderating and thanks to everyone for participating!
- Bryan Person
Loved it.
- Angela
yes... thanks Sonny and Bryan! Sorry to get on my @TheCR soapbox there... I didn't see it coming.
- Jim Storer
Lots of great perspectives.
- Julie
Yeah Jim, next time, we'll charge you, haha just kidding. That's how we can monetize this group.
- Maria Ogneva
No worries Jim - it was great conversation! Now go find that bar for us ;)
- Sonny Gill
lol good idea Maria!
- Sonny Gill
Sonny, thanks for moderating. "unknown", maybe you can provide your name next time. Jim, at least we know you're passionate about your community!
- Joe Kikta
@maria come to one of our @TheCR Live events and I'll buy the first beer. :-)
- Jim Storer
Bar? did someone say bar? that sounds so good. gotta tend to my communities first :)
- Maria Ogneva
@Jim: No soapbox at all! TheCR's story was certainly relevant to the discussion.
- Bryan Person
there's something about community mgmt and bars... you just need to look at Q1 and Angela's conundrum to understand why.
- Jim Storer
Nice! I'll hold you to that. When's the one for NYC? Do you have them in SF? I'm moving there at end of month. if not, I can organize the SF arm!
- Maria Ogneva
ditto... I'll hold you to that (the SF branch). We did one in NYC (with Michael Chin from KickApps). Not sure when the next one is?
- Jim Storer
@sue enjoy your weekend too!
- Jim Storer
Just have to say, I had the most amazing view of the Alpes from my terrace during this chat :)
- Richard Millington
@Rich: Lucky bastard!
- Bryan Person
BTW, I like using FF for this chat. Helps to keep organized and more focused. Also, with all the delay issues on Twitter recently, much faster. Plus, you don't have to worry about noise from others using your hashtag.
- Joe Kikta
@Jim we mutually follow on Twitter, let's def brainstorm @CR for SF once I move.
- Maria Ogneva
We need to have some OnCom events in Europe
- Richard Millington
@Joe: Right! Thankfully, there hasn't been much spam in FriendFeed, at least not that I've seen.
- Bryan Person
Q3 - September 4, 2009: Richard Millington asks how do you place value of online communities and how much we charge?
Feel free to expand, Richard!
- Sonny Gill
Cant wait to hear the answer to this one - the 64,000$ question!
- Mark Sylvester
I got nothing for this one. Not at the moment.
- Angela
Ha, I was wondering if a frank chat about how much we charge, or would demand in salary would work :)
- Richard Millington
The newspaper people are all waiting to take notes....
- Joe Kikta
how much revenue do you think it will generate
- Jason Peck
I have no idea, but here's some brainstorming... try to look at it in terms of customer lifetime value, and if community extends this lifetime and thus increasing value.
- Maria Ogneva
I charge a % of the value of the community if the organization wants to drive advocacy/WOM or retain customers or generate excitement - there are real measurable outcomes to that. Estimate that value and charge a % of it.
- Richard Millington
We're charging $750 for an annual, founding membership in The Community Roundtable.
- Jim Storer
i.e. if it's a conference, then each customer (attendee), their LTV could be just the price of 1 conf, but if you keep in touch with them, get them to put more skin in the game, get them to get invested with other attendees, then they are likely to come back.
- Maria Ogneva
that sounded like an advertisement, but i was trying to answer the question...
- Jim Storer
@Jim / @sonny - I was answering a bit of a different question. if you are asking how much to charge, it's whatever the market will bear.
- Maria Ogneva
A community like mine, a local community connected to a news organization would have a hard time charging. I think we can offer distinct features that cost, but charging out the gate...I'm not so sure.
- Angela
@Sue I work with my client beforehand to estimate it. What do they want to achieve, what difference will it make to the client and how much do they think it will be worth.
- Richard Millington
... like for @CR, a founding membership (although I don't really know what that means), I think would give you more exposure, so it's should be construed as part of a marketing expenditure
- Maria Ogneva
No worries, Maria - I liked your response in terms of a CMs value.
- Sonny Gill
@Jim: How'd you arrive at that $750 number?
- Bryan Person
Depending upon the client I usually charge between $4000 and $8000 per month for community building work on a retainer, and work with no more than 3 clients at any one time. At the moment I'm on a longer term contract at the United Nations (where I'm not allowed to give out my salary).
- Richard Millington
I agree with @Maria. The "founder" aspect can buy bragging rights if CR gets huge. (Sorry if it's already huge, Jim...you know what I mean...)
- Angela
Exactly, so if it's a community supporting a paid product, you are already getting value by charging, so you can't charge for community. but if it's a members only community that actually helps ppl get deals and jobs, then you can charge. how much? you need to run some kind of analytic to figure out the value that some past customers got out of it, and as long as that value is greater than what you charge, ppl won't mind paying.
- Maria Ogneva
I personally love the 'freemium' model where additional features/benefits are given to subscribing /paying members vs. the free ones.
- Sonny Gill
It depends on what's being provided and the client. A B2B style community will have higher infrastrucutre costs (usually because of branding and single sign on integration work), but it's the cost of soft skills -- your time -- that will have the best ROI.
- Lou Ordorica
@maria "founding membership" is for the first 50 members - all members share the same community, programs services.
- Jim Storer
It seems like right now, so many are just happy to be on Facebook. I think that's a mistake. Sounds like you've got clients who get it, @Rich. Get the value of having their own. But that's another conversation for me.
- Angela
What if you charged people to be members of a community and gave them products for free? If the community was strong enough and you made an effort to host regular events/give benefits it could work.
- Richard Millington
@Maria I disagree - I think you can charge if the benefit is good enough
- Jason Peck
@angela we're growing, but certainly not huge. :-)
- Jim Storer
I have to dip out for a client call - but it was nice chatting! Have a good afternoon
- Jason Peck
Take care Jason!
- Sonny Gill
Later, Jason.
- Angela
@bryan a mix of market analysis, conversations with people in the space and gut feel.
- Jim Storer
Sue - what about free and pay features for the community? Please both parties while enticing free members to have premium benefits?
- Sonny Gill
I disagree slightly there Sue. Everybody pays to socialize. They got to bars, they play football, they attend conferences, they go the cinema. All these activities would be meaningless without other people. People are desperate for an excuse to socialize and they're willing to pay for it.
- Richard Millington
@Sonny, I think MarketingProfs is a great example of "freemium" model.
- Teresa Basich
Paid Community faces the same challenges as paid content. It's a difficult model.
- Angela Lawson
@Sonny Freemium is an interesting model, but you have to plan very well and be patient on your returns. IN the end, you might not be able to wait long enough or things may change too much to become profitable.
- Joe Kikta
I think competition is a big consideration. if your competition is giving away the same service for free, then you can't really charge. so if you wanna charge, you have to give a better service.
- Maria Ogneva
@Joe - right, very true. I think Twitter is in a perfect spot to offer a premium service to their community. The core group of users in SM/Tech/PR I think woudl be willing to pay. While the majority/mainstream would stick with free, IMO.
- Sonny Gill
@Angela L, but is it? Paid content is flawed because content is a commodity. Relationships can never become a commodity, that's what makes them so great. Today we're overwhelmed by interactions but relationships are scarce. We'll pay for them as long as we think we're paying for something else.
- Richard Millington
When you talk paid closed community isn't that the same model that AOL and Prodigy dumped years ago? Why pay if you can get something similar for free.
- Angela Lawson
Just want to throw in the remark that this is the best CmtyChat I've been a part of to date. Outstanding exchange of ideas today!
- Bryan Person
we're seeing people are simply overwhelmed by all the content/data out there. they crave a filter for the info and interactions with peers... that's our value prop.
- Jim Storer
@Rich, you're giving me food for thought. I can't have a conversation about paid content in this space though with the time I have left. News content became a commodity when it was released for free. News organizations did that to themselves. But it costs to produce and there is diff value in diff types of content. But the relationships aspect is something to think about. Paying for relationships...hmmm..
- Angela
Great stance Jim and such the truth as far as having a filter and making the content more valuable and focused. There's so much out there that some people just become overwhelmed and not sure where to even start.
- Sonny Gill
@Angela Interesting argument, but there are many firms (Forrester, Gartner, SiteIQ) out there who have built a business on paid content. They give some teaser info away, sure, but make their money out of subscriptions to analyst reports.
- Lou Ordorica
@angela maybe it's the same reason you pay to go to a conference? a conference brings together a filtered set of ideas and people, giving you a highly focused educational/networking experience... i think private peer networks offer much of the same.
- Jim Storer
sorry - that was a response to @angela lawson
- Jim Storer
If it's a closed paid community, ppl will pay if other ppl are of a high enough caliber (and if they are getting some other stuff to) - but I think if it's a closed community for networking / prof dev, then other members are most important asset.
- Maria Ogneva
like a country club lol :)
- Maria Ogneva
Yes @Lou but I am specifically talking about news content when I allude to teh conversation I don't have time to have at this moment. Not news blogs, or even research like Forrester has. Actual reported news that Yahoo and Google get from AP and others who actually pay people to gather it.
- Angela
or a fraternity? :P
- Sonny Gill
I think that's one model Maria. Charge elite people to be in elite communities. The other is adding value to those paying customers that helps facilitate better interactions. Like arranging meet-ups, securing products from companies that want to reach those people etc.
- Richard Millington
@sonny haha true.
- Maria Ogneva
@maria you'd be amazed by the questions and conversations that are spawned by our members that are relatively new to community. they get the veteran (high caliber) members to challenge their long held assumptions.
- Jim Storer
Hey all, I have to bail. It has been really, really rich. Great time. An hour well spent.
- Angela
@Jim I agree with the filter idea. Focused information (and contacts) for your needs.
- Joe Kikta
@richard Yes, those are 2 different value props.
- Maria Ogneva
People will only pay if they can't get the same services, content or connections any where else. The exclusivity and value proposition will need to be very high. Or the cost will need to be very low.
- Angela Lawson
Thanks so much everyone for a great chat! Posted up a wrapup note - you guys were awesome!
- Sonny Gill
Thanks for having this! This was fun. I will be back for sure. How's that for community? :)
- Maria Ogneva
Great to have you Maria - of course we'd want you back ;)
- Sonny Gill
We're getting there, Maria. Thanks!
- Bryan Person
Angela L. What about people that buy the products to feel part of the club? Like people that buy the same Harley Davidson to hang out with fellow riders, or people that buy certain clothes or other items to better fit in with those people. You could get this for free, but you don't. Products are increasingly becoming the tickets for people to become members of the community.
- Richard Millington
@Rich: Great point. How about the iPhone? There's certainly a buy-it-to-be-part-of-the-IN-crowd force at work there.
- Bryan Person
Really great point there Richard. These brands are creating something emotional to their products that their customers connect with.
- Sonny Gill
That's how Apple fanatics are - we have an emotional connection to their products. They've created an EXPERIENCE vs. just another product.
- Sonny Gill
You too, Sue! Great to have you here, as always :)
- Sonny Gill
Q2 - September 4, 2009: Fan clubs have been around for a long time (ex: Burger King Kids Club, band fan clubs, etc.). How can a brick & mortar co. take their fans and evolve it into an online community? What best examples have you seen of this? (From Jason Peck)
Twelpforce from BestBuy is an interesting take on this approach, although you could argue it followed Blue Shirt Nation, so it's not a good example.
- Jim Storer
Pretty close though, Jim. Good example though as to how an internal community can flourish onilne.
- Sonny Gill
Converting offline fan groups into online groups is actually quite easy compared with taking online fan groups offline (meeting at events etc). The bigger challenge by far is finding and connecting people in the first place.
- Richard Millington
@sonny - i see it as more than that though... really an interesting way to augment traditional brick and mortar with an information service.
- Jim Storer
@Richard - well let's take that: what challenges come when you're trying to take your online community and have them be a part of something onilne?
- Sonny Gill
@Richard I agree. If you already have the base offline, then just us online to grow it bigger and faster. Viral nature of the Net and all that...
- Joe Kikta
I think coffee shops do this well. I've seen it with local and shops. They have their audience who wants community. They use social media to foster communication and bring in Fans.
- Julie
@Joe But also depends on the nature of the community and their aptitude to participate in an online forum vs. traditional offline.
- Sonny Gill
I don't think it is quite easy. The type of people who are involved in offline communities may or may not be used to being in online communities, so that is one challenge right there
- Jason Peck
@Sonny. You mean trying to take the online community offline? The biggest fear is that it completely flops. You host an event and no-one comes. This is what can happen if the relationships between people online aren't a strong enough pull for people to physically make the effort to be in the same room. If they're not excited by that prospect, you lose.
- Richard Millington
@Jason How do you communicate that offline? The ease and benefit of joining the online community. What more would they get vs. offline.
- Sonny Gill
this is an interesting article about how Isis Maternity (traditional brick/mortar) is supporting offline community... they do a fair amount online too. http://www.bostonmagazine.com/article...
- Jim Storer
@Sonny That's a good point, but becoming less and less a problem.
- Joe Kikta
I think you have to get them in the store. I just saw Cold Stone Creamery's announcement in their store of the winners of a FB contest who created new custom ice cream combinations right next to the menu. You could order them. Automatically made me want to join and enter my own combination. I haven't had many places I frequent trying to "get me" in the store.
- Angela
Rich, what are the indicators that you use to determine whether an online community is strong enough to meet offline?
- Bryan Person
@Jason I would usually be inclined to agree, but I see communities of bingo players, farmers, mommy bloggers, sewing circles and all sorts of groups that you wouldn't immediately identify with using online communities thriving. I think it's far easier to get an existing offline community to overcome the challenges of technology than it is for an online community to overcome the physical distance barrier.
- Richard Millington
Related to Angela's example, Chipotle started MyChipotle.com, where people could submit videos, etc., of their own creations and community voted on best ones.
- Teresa Basich
Hey @Rich Millington. I agree. The bonds have to exist to take it offline. When I hosted a one year anniversary folks came in droves. They sponsor yard sales and car washes together because they all communicate so often. They have a real bond. hard when it's sporadic.
- Angela
@Sonny - one benefit to communicate would be quicker updates - communication, content, discounts, promos can be shared more quickly online
- Jason Peck
we've been holding offline lunches for people interested in us (@TheCR) in the Boston area - it's a mix of members and interested people, friends of the "family", etc. it's actually worked really well to create a new venue for our community.
- Jim Storer
Great example there, Teresa. (of course being a chipotle lover) But they pulled together their community nationwide into an online portal of community driven media.
- Sonny Gill
Back when I was running online gaming communities, I organized many meets. But the event itself had a strong purpose (they wanted to kill each other in person, rather than online) and many of the sub-groups had met elsewhere in the country.
- Richard Millington
Rich's point illustrates the importance of the "type" of community.
- Angela
@Rich: Those must have been some wild meetups! Did you make sure there was a cop nearby?
- Bryan Person
For me, I've been big in an online car forum where we've built friendships and connections with other members and have taken that into 'car' meets across the nation. Ppl have driven hours just to make these meets and to meet the people we talked with on a daily basis.
- Sonny Gill
@Richard that's true, good point. I'm also interested in this from more of a brand perspective, rather than general interests. So I guess type of community definitely makes a difference
- Jason Peck
@Jim: Your @TheCR community is a natural online>offline fit.
- Bryan Person
In the Cincinnati area, MomsLikeMe.com gives members key chains that are distinctive enough that they recognize one another in the grocery store and it becomes a conversation starter. http://cincinnati.momslikeme.com/
- Jim Storer
And the benefit for us? We wanted to bring these connections full circle, talk about cars, and maybe throw back a few:) But it was all community driven. The community leaders, CMs, or Mods didn't do any of it.
- Sonny Gill
Wow @Sonny. Is or was there a community manager facilitating that interaction in the car community?
- Angela
@Angela - nope! That was the amazing part of it.
- Sonny Gill
@Jim - that's a cool idea!
- Jason Peck
@Sonny: So the members organized these meetups themselves?
- Bryan Person
@Jim I live in Cincy and never noticed... Guess I'm not in their target group? :)
- Joe Kikta
@Bryan - yup. THOUGH, the CMs created a 'meets' section for us, we facilitated everything that went on in there and all of the details/planning/etc.
- Sonny Gill
In many ways the offline meet is the ultimate goal of online communities. We work to steadily reduce the distance between members. Being in the same room is a fantastic result. If you have a group that have already been in the same room, it should be much easier. That's why I think so many conferences completely miss an amazing opportunity to create closed communities just for attendees.
- Richard Millington
@Sonny Sounds like it was all driven (pun not intended) by passion. Amazing.
- Angela
@jason - yep - when i heard that it was an "aha" moment for me.
- Jim Storer
People would meet in person if they have enough skin in the game (financially or emotionally), and if they don't have the fear that they will show up and be alone. Example: JetBlue is now organizing meetups for ppl who are using their "all u can jet" program. It's a financial investment, so they appreciate meeting with others that are doing the same thing. Ultimately, it's all about "what's in it for me?"
- Maria Ogneva
@joe is your name short for Josephine? ;-)
- Jim Storer
@Angela - it was and still is. I don't get to frequent it that often but whenever I pop back in to a few threads, I'll get a massive amounts of 'where the hell have you been?!' messages. We alld efinitely have a connection :)
- Sonny Gill
My community drives its own events as well. Some are at bars. You couldn't pay me to show up at those.
- Angela
You don't drink? Or does it get rowdy?
- Richard Millington
i think @maria just hit the nail on the head... be very clear about "what's in it for the people you want to come to your offline event" and you'll do well.
- Jim Storer
@Maria: Hadn't heard about those @JetBlue meetups ... Would you mind pointing us to a link about them. I think that's fantastic!
- Bryan Person
@angela if you went to those I'd agree that you were likely getting too close to your community.
- Jim Storer
Wow same here - haven't heard about JetBlues meetups. Awesome.
- Sonny Gill
The group that meets at the bars is a bit suspect, Rich. Read between those lines my friend. :-)
- Angela
@JIm. Yes, you are right.
- Angela
agree with Jim and Maria don't organize events for the purpose of 'meeting up'. Makes people feel uncomfortable. Organize stuff to do, like a conference with a speaker (and lots of hallway time) or a trip to a place related to the topic etc...
- Richard Millington
@Rich: Can you pop on Skype for a minute?
- Bryan Person
@ Bryan Hmmm I have no idea! My boyfriend went to one, I think it's on meetup.com, and there's also a hashtag #AYCJ (all you can jet :). I can rummage through meetup and get that link (at least the one in NYC)
- Maria Ogneva
@Maria: Nope, that's a good start. I can search from there.
- Bryan Person
Rich I love your perspective on communities. That's why I read your blog.
- Angela
Also would like more info about Jetblue events
- Jason Peck
@Bryan - http://www.meetup.com/599Club/
- Maria Ogneva
Q3 is posted up now!
- Sonny Gill
Hmm, thanks? I actually love the slightly different approach, me, you, Martin and others have towards communities Angela.
- Richard Millington
@Maria - thanks
- Jason Peck
@Maria: Thanks from me, too!
- Bryan Person
Q1 - September 4, 2009: Kicking things off -- How do you manage a well-known 'influencer' who is possibly undermining the purpose of the community? Abusing that power vs. utilizing it for the purpose of the community.
Tough one. Anyone have any examples where this has happened to them or a brand they know about?
- Jason Peck
OMG, this is so timely for me. I just had to ban one and the backlash was crazy. I've had to show him that he can't do whatever the heck he pleases. He called my boss.
- Angela
Definitely a tough one. Much different when it's an influencer than when it's a troll.
- Teresa Basich
Exactly, much different because it's not always someone you can easily get rid of.
- Sonny Gill
@Angela - that's crazy timing! What has happened since the backlash and the call to your boss?
- Sonny Gill
Wow, Angela, how did your boss respond?
- Teresa Basich
There have been countless blogs about me and how unfair I am. There have been others saying it was about time because I was holding his hand.
- Angela
Oh, my boss heard the deal and understands that i have to do what I have to do. I am the only one who knows anything about the doggone community and they know it!
- Angela
This is tricky. An influencer can take a good chunk of your members with him or her if they leave or are forced to leave the community.
- Lou Ordorica
I've had this happen before actually - a potential partner was abusing the internal messaging system of a community I was involve with. Friending a bunch of people and sending unsolicited messages to them. We warned him 2x and banned him the third time.
- Jason Peck
Do you feel it has adversely effected the community and how they view you as their CM?
- Sonny Gill
Nope. I am not even worried about it. I think it sent a message that needed to be sent. I have moved on and continue to create content, communicate with people, engage, etc...
- Angela
Good point Lou - many of us look up to these influencers or industry-leaders and would easily make that move with them.
- Sonny Gill
Lou is right - have to be sensitive on how you handle it- best option is to handle in a more personal way than email I'd say so your perspective/opinion doesn't get taken the wrong way.
- Jason Peck
Good on you Angela - have to keep strong vs. letting the community take over.
- Sonny Gill
I would hope value of community would outshine value of following that particular influencer. Of course there will be people who won't see that value.
- Teresa Basich
I was stressed about it for a day and then i went on vacation. Amazing what that did for me.
- Angela
Angela, I would approach him and ask him to be non-destructive and positive. If he is saying you are unfair, then it's not really in the spirit of the community. Ask him to stop nicely, and be firm in laying out consequences for being destructive.
- Maria Ogneva
@Jason - right, so taking smaller steps towards the person and issue vs. reacting harshly or not at all.
- Sonny Gill
He did send me a threatening email though, guys. Forgot to mention that.
- Angela
Don't be afraid to follow through on your words. That will foster a more collegiate atmosphere - that this type of behavior won't be tolerated.
- Maria Ogneva
re: original question... have them partner with you on a constructive project for the community.
- Jim Storer
@Maria...I'd done that with him so many times. He used to call me twice per week. Trust me. I went to the ends of the earth for this user. v
- Angela
It sounds like you dealt with it as best you could, Angela. And as long as the community moves on past the blip, as long as content and connections are stlll happening, isn't that what counts?
- Teresa Basich
Well, that definitely reinforces your stance and decision, Angela.
- Sonny Gill
Doesn't this raise a scalability issue? In a cast of thousands, might you have 50 or more abusers? Then what?
- Todd Defren
That's a really great suggestion, Jim. But what if they just want to take advantage of your community, not help improve or contribute to it?
- Teresa Basich
@Todd. Absolutely. I have been saying that. Scalability is an issue. I got this one, but there are more to come and I miss many. Can't be everywhere at once and I recently told my boss that if we are not going to provide adequate resources, we have to accept the outcome.
- Angela
@theresa then they'd be engaging against the community guidelines and should be banned
- Jim Storer
@Jim So, reinforce what the purpose is by leading them to a project that contributes? Sounds like a great idea.
- Joe Kikta
There's no place for that kind of behavior. I would ban him and write a post *in general* without mentioning specifics, explaining your side of the story about how the community can't sustain that kind of behavior and asking people to be respectful. When communicating with community, you have to be transparent and objective. if you don't share your viewpoint, I'm afraid the other members may fill in their own blanks.
- Maria Ogneva
Sonny said the offender was an "influencer," so that probably means he/she has done plenty of good in the community. Not a complete troll.
- Bryan Person
@Maria Yes. But when you do share that viewpoint, not everyone sees it. So it is never really understood by all.
- Angela
Angela, was this guy ever a helpful member of the community, or was he always a troublemaker?
- Bryan Person
@Angela Very true. But it's always better to be proactive :) I think.
- Maria Ogneva
@Bryan I could see how some people may get desperate in these tough times and "go off the reservation" per se.
- Joe Kikta
@bryan right - someone that has strayed... not all that bad, just need to be steered back on track.
- Jim Storer
@bryan @jim I think that's where Jim's suggestion is a good one. Gently guide them back on the right path.
- Joe Kikta
Also try to think about things from the troublemaker's perspective - why is he/she doing these things to potentially hurt the community? It's possible that he/she is just trying to help and just needs gentle reminder or clarification on what is accepted and what would be helpful
- Jason Peck
He was absolutely helpful Bryan. That's why it was so hard. He had a really good weather group was an excellent debater, but he was also rude and did violate guidelines. I think that he felt he was too valuable and infallible. People were even complaining to me about that very thing. He started talking about who belonged and who didn't.
- Angela
How do you counter negative feedback from a good % of your community that may have sided with this influencer? Have they lost the urge to participate? What things can a CM do to help regain that?
- Sonny Gill
@angela sometimes you run into a member that won't argue reasonably... and that's really tough. It sounds like you may have had one of those on your hands?
- Jim Storer
Angela: have you tried finding out what's causing it? perhaps he is unhappy about something, or just wants attention?
- Maria Ogneva
@Jim, I truly believe I exhausted all resources. It had to end.
- Angela
maybe they live in Austin and just can't take the heat anymore... (jk)
- Jim Storer
@Maria He didn't want the very things he did to others being done to him. Period. Source of unhappiness.
- Angela
This conversation reminds me of the Packers deciding to pass on Brett Favre's un-retirement. Very painful decision, but the back office felt it was the right for the team. It did cost them fans and support, though.
- Lou Ordorica
@angela that's an untenable situation... i hope your boss supported you.
- Jim Storer
@Jim: We've had 60+ days above 100 this year. It's definitely time to cool off!
- Bryan Person
@Jim. He did. My bosses don't understand why many of the people in the community are still there. They aren't charged with growing it though. Our attorney tells me I'm too close to the goings-on in the community. Wants me to step back. Step back but stay engaged, right? I'm working on it.
- Angela
@Sonny To a degree, don't you have to be proactive and establish rock solid relationships with your main contributors/influencers when things are good and they can help you out when bad things happen?
- Joe Kikta
@Lou: Not a bad analogy. Favre was unquestionably an influencer in Green Bay, arguably their best player ever. Making the decision to move on without him was undoubtedly a gut-wrenching one, but I'd argue it was the right one for the club and the community.
- Bryan Person
@Bryan Well, I guess we'll find out this year with them playing in the same division, right?
- Joe Kikta
@bryan, very true. Long term thinking and strategy isn't valued, unfortunately.
- Lou Ordorica
@Joe - right. As sue stated, it's quite possible that the community just has a sense of relief once that person is gone.
- Sonny Gill
Q2 is posted in case you haven't scrolled up!
- Sonny Gill
Thanks for heads up on Q2. I like using FF, but telling us to scroll up is best way to run.
- Joe Kikta
September 4th, 2009 - RANDOM: Welcome everybody! About a half hour until we get this started but feel free to mingle, introduce yourselves, and post any possible topics you'd like covered!
Where's the bar? :-)
- Jim Storer
Howdy!
- Jason Peck
Jim - the bar is awaiting you come 2pm EST ;)
- Sonny Gill
What's up Jason! Good to see you here man.
- Sonny Gill
good to be here
- Jason Peck
Any pressing thoughts or questions you guys wanna ask? Shoot em out - we can queue it up for today's chat.
- Sonny Gill
possible topic of discussion. Fan clubs have been around for a long time (ex: Burger King Kids Club, fan clubs for tons of bands, etc). What are some of the best examples of these that you've seen where a company has taken their offline fan club and brought it online?
- Jason Peck
Good topic there. So something that was creating from brick & mortar and evolved into a cmty online?
- Sonny Gill
A frank discussion about the value of online communities and how much we charge could be interesting.
- Richard Millington
Hello, everyone! Welcome back, Rich.
- Bryan Person
@Sonny - yes that's exactly what I meant- you worded it better than I did
- Jason Peck
Good one Richard - I like that. Hey Sue - enjoy the weather over there!
- Sonny Gill
Hi all! Happy Friday. :)
- Teresa Basich
Hey Teresa! Happy Friday indeed!
- Sonny Gill
I second Jim's question: Where IS the bar?
- Bryan Person
I found the bar... http://www.partyingjamaica.com/swim... - c'mon in, the water's nice.
- Jim Storer
Um, if you're there right now Jim - I hate you. :)
- Sonny Gill
I've got a case of Canadian Club Whisky in my office. *Here's* the bar! (CC are clients - gotta love 'em!)
- Todd Defren
@todd - buzz me up when I arrive...
- Jim Storer
@Todd: Hey there! We'd love your take on Q1: Dealing with an 'influencer' who's potentially undermining the community.
- Bryan Person
Todd - CC is one of my favorite Whiskeys!
- Sonny Gill
Jack and coke is my drink of choice. It must be noon somewhere, maybe I should have a drink. :)
- Lou Ordorica
Friday, August 28, 2009: Q3 (suggested by Chuck): As a community manager, how much of your personal self should you share in a community? What's appropriate? How can it help build trust?
@marciamarcia suggested in our webinar last month that you should not hold back on being a 'whole' person - she was referencing tweets - but I think it holds here as well. @ambercababra yesterday suggested the same thing, it is about being authentic - which backons back to the first question about trust. Being real is trustworthy and easily recognized by members.
- Mark Sylvester
Interesting question. Something people often ask on Twitter and the extent of our 'transparency' that should be shown. Is there a definite answer? I don't think so. But nobody needs to know every single detail of your life and have it spilled over into the community where it dominates your persona there. Has to be a balance.
- Sonny Gill
@Sonny: Good point about balance. I think there's a danger in oversharing such that the community becomes too much about YOU rather than your members ...
- Bryan Person
Don't you basically use the same rules you would use at the "office"? It's different for each person and each community.
- Joe Kikta
@Sue suggests CMs should stay "unbiased." Anyone think differently?
- Bryan Person
Like most things...maybe, it depends. Sometimes stimulating heated debates is a very good thing. Taking sides can help. There is a difference mind between taking sides with an opinion and then backing it up with your admin powers. I don't think you need to stay unbiased, you're not a judge. You're the person that develops the community. Being unbiased isn't a quality needed for that.
- Richard Millington
Have to jet folks but Bryan will be holding it down for the both of us! Thanks for everyone who made it :) See you all next week!
- Sonny Gill
As long as "unbiased" really just means fair and willing to consider other opinions. No one is truly unbiased and you are definitely entitled to your own opinion and I think community members are probably interested in your opinions as the comm mgr.
- Joe Kikta
within transparency the act of diplomacy still needs to be considered
- daphnerocha
Sue, maybe that's more of a case of being "fair" rather than "unbiased"?
- Bryan Person
@Bryan Part of the definition of unbiased is being fair: free from all prejudice and favoritism : eminently fair <an unbiased opinion>. Of course it DOES imply more, so maybe you really just need to be fair
- Joe Kikta
@Joe: Hmm ... I think one can be biased but still treat community members with other opinions fairly?
- Bryan Person
I think you're entitled to an opinion and everybody has bias, but you have to be fair and respect other people's ideas/opinions.
- Joe Kikta
Friday, August 28, 2009: Q2. Building and earning trust is one thing; BREAKING trust of our members is another--and can wound or kill a community. What causes us to break trust with our members, and how do we recover? (if you have specific examples, share 'em!)
I don't think is a community question as much as a human being question. If you're nice to someone for a year that person will think you're a nice person. If you're mean to them for one day you lose that trust and it will probably take you another year to recover. Pick what you're going to be and be consistent with it. It's when you stop being consistent that the problems happen.
- Richard Millington
Allowing negative members to stick around, who are basically like leeches on the rest of the community. Though not a DIRECT breach of trust, it relates to the CMs view on the rest of the community.
- Sonny Gill
@Sonny: Sounds like you're suggesting FIRING some of your community members if they're dragging down the group and eroding participation/trust/etc. Curious what others think about this?
- Bryan Person
@Sonny Absolutely! Some members like to spread negativity and that will kill the community. If left unattended, the good people (positive, passionate etc) will eventually leave.
- Patricia Ooi
@Bryan - Not so much firing but blatant misconduct that's basically overlooked, despite the rest of the community's voice on the matter.
- Sonny Gill
@Sue - does crossing that line make you seem as less of an 'authority' figure within the community also?
- Sonny Gill
I actually have an example of firing community members. Happened a couple of years ago with one of LiveWorld's clients. Community environment was becoming toxic because the long-time members were cliquey (sp?) and generally treating new members poorly.
- Bryan Person
I've seen that before also Bryan, within a car forum I frequented. Certain members just became like the bullies in high school and tried to control everything and everyone within the community. The mods eventually had enough and booted them for good.
- Sonny Gill
@Bryan How did you handle the clique problem? Did you talk to "leaders" of the cliques off-line?
- Joe Kikta
Newcomers wouldn't stick around long. Decision was made to, essentially, kick out those older, bad-attitude members to help create a new, more welcoming community. Was a risky tactic, but it worked! Volume went down for a while, but then came back up and the community thrived!
- Bryan Person
That definitely takes some guts to boot out long-time members!
- Joe Kikta
Sometimes you can solve the old-member/new-member conflict by giving old-timers a separate place. But not always. In some cases, you just have to let them go. Otherwise, new people will never take the risk of getting involved. So important that those who're just watching the play can begin to envision themselves as characters.
- Jenna Woodul
Great analogy, Jenna! Sounds like the great opening line of a blog post for you :)
- Bryan Person
@Joe: Agreed, but in our case, the community probably would have died if we hadn't done so.
- Bryan Person
Anyone else have examples of trust being broken in a community?
- Bryan Person
Actually, I have to run now. But it's lovely to see you all here this morning, and so glad this chat continues!
- Jenna Woodul
Thanks for joining us today, Jenna!
- Bryan Person
Jenna, I agree, prior to making that ultimate decision of letting them go, its good to weigh in their overall contribution. If all they are doing is create a negative place, then it is a tough decision to make but will pay off in the long run.
- daphnerocha
Appreciate your thoughts Jenna!
- Sonny Gill
Hey there, Daphne. Good to see you here this week!
- Bryan Person
Enjoying the great chat, Bryan... as always :)
- daphnerocha
I think Amber said in the webinar yesterday that "nothing is outside a CM's job description" (paraphrasing)....
- Joe Kikta
I suspect there is a slight danger of over exaggerating the role and importance of a CM with those sorts of statements. Everyone thinks their role is important to every facet of the organization.
- Richard Millington
I think she was really just referring to the fact that if it's important to the community then it's important to you and if there are roadblocks or issues and you can help, then you should.
- Joe Kikta
Friday, August 28, 2009: Q1. Let's talk best practices for building trust in the online communities that we mange or are a part of.
We just had this conversation at a client meeting the other day. The question from clients is always..."how do we built trust in social media?" It's obviously overly simplistic, but we always talk about two things: time and value. If you spend the time getting to know people, and are constantly adding value, you will grow your reputation.
- Chuck Hemann
Good start, Chuck. What are some ways to help add value?
- Bryan Person
Trust is consistency over time. The longer the period of time, the greater the trust.
- Richard Millington
@sue - funny how Fake smells so bad....
- Mark Sylvester
Be focused on the kinds of information they (they being the community you are interacting with) will find useful in their jobs. Be there whenever they need you, not when it works into your schedule - especiallly if it's a community of customers.
- Chuck Hemann
Willingness to teach. Call it leadership - but being accepting towards your entire community and open to helping guide, teach, and learn together.
- Sonny Gill
I think that trust also comes from everyone having a clear understanding of the purpose of the site - and also with that understanding, are aligned and supportive. This is a huge trust enabler
- Mark Sylvester
The big problem with this question is that it's not us, the managers that members especially have to trust. Sure it helps. But the big win is when members trust each other. So our role is more about helping our members become 'trust agents' whilst making sure we don't do anything adverse to communities in the meantime.
- Richard Millington
Chuck: Liking the idea of finding information that's useful/important to your community members. Any suggestions from the group on how that's done?
- Bryan Person
@Mark How often do comm members go "off topic" and you have to "reign them in" and remind them of the purpose of the site?
- Joe Kikta
Good way of thinking about it, Rich.
- Bryan Person
@Richard - I like that thought.
- Sonny Gill
@Bryan - not terribly tricky or time consuming really. Ultimately, if you're spending enough time with the members of your community you'll know what's of interest and constantly be on the lookout for it. Spending time getting to know them, as a person and not as a cog in a wheel, will also help you identify areas that are of interest to them. You'd be amazed how quickly you can fire off a link that would really help that community member
- Chuck Hemann
Sue - Indeed it is, but not all communities that I'm a part of come together like that either.
- Sonny Gill
I think that there is a difference between off topic and off purpose...
- Mark Sylvester
@Sue fully agree. Off topic is fantastic. It shows that members are bonding beyond what's needed for the purpose of the community. Within limits, it should be encouraged. It doesn't matter if "What's your favorite movie" is especially relevant to the purpose or not.
- Richard Millington
@Sue: Maybe, but things don't always come together so neatly. I'm particularly thinking about the early days of the community. We can help set the tone or, as Richard says, start connecting members to each other.
- Bryan Person
I think you need to lead by example - share some information about yourself (don't go overboard though). Ask questions, and ensure you enforce your community guidelines.
- Martin Reed
@Chuck - exactly. Also, putting in a conscious effort towards helping and interacting with your community vs. just letting it be and grow organically, will show positive results and show them that they're not just another number.
- Sonny Gill
Just the act of starting a community implies trust. Then you have to deliver by allowing (mostly) unrestricted exchange. Personalities have to have room to breathe.
- Jenna Woodul
@Martin: Julien and Chris make a similar recommendation about sharing information about yourself as a way to build trust. Shows your humanness, and people relate to that.
- Bryan Person
@Jenna: So gently guiding conversations, etc. along when you have to, but otherwise staying out of the way (mean that in a positive sense!)?
- Bryan Person
So long as you have the right members, direction is overrated. If the community wants to go somewhere, let them go there. It should be a sign your organization should go there too. Trying to steer the community to where you want them to go is a dangerous. Encouraging them to go where they want to go is much more fun.
- Richard Millington
@Bryan - perhaps this is a topic for here, or another question, but how do you determine what's an appropriate level of information about you?
- Chuck Hemann
Does anyone have example of when a community and/or CM lost your trust?
- Sonny Gill
Yes, stay out of the way, but be there to help, trying to anticipate what people need.
- Jenna Woodul
@Sonny: Just made that the topic of Q2!
- Bryan Person
@Chuck: Got it. Will work that in if I can.
- Bryan Person
I know of a CM who's lost trust by having a "hands-on-hips" stern and scolding manner with people about their behavior. One does have to wonder what she's thinking when she does that.
- Jenna Woodul
That's interesting Jenna. Feel free to share it on Q2 as well to continue the convo there :)
- Sonny Gill
Sorry, I keep scrolling to the wrong thread.
- Jenna Woodul
No worries!
- Sonny Gill
Friday, August 28, 2009: RANDOM. Here's where you can introduce yourself and add in off-topic questions, comments, or suggestions for me to ask the larger group!
good day everyone - still on a buzz from yesterday's Community Manager webinar - thanks again to Rachel, Jim, Amber and Howard for adding amazing insights.
- Mark Sylvester
Hey everybody! Missed you guys after a vacation to Vegas last weekend. Hope we're all good.
- Sonny Gill
Sounds like a good one, Mark. Sorry I missed it!
- Bryan Person
@Mark - how was the webinar? Heard good things about it.
- Sonny Gill
Connecting through a T-Mobile hotspot at LAX ... hope I can keep my connection.
- Bryan Person
Link to webinar replay at http://www.intronetworks.com/webinar... - enter name on right for access - it was truly inspirational
- Mark Sylvester
By the way, today's topic is at the front of my mind because I'm reading "Trust Agents," a new bestselling business book by Chris Brogan and Julien Smith.
- Bryan Person
Nice - thanks Mark!
- Sonny Gill
Thanks, Mark!
- Bryan Person
you are going to love the book, Bryan...if you don't already that is.
- Chuck Hemann
@Chuck: About 80% of the way through. It's a great read!
- Bryan Person
It was a great chat today folks!!! Thank you for coming. I am off to a meeting, but I will check in later if there were any unanswered questions. Please everyone follow each other and lets continue the conversation. The community starts here with us, the community leaders and explorers. Enjoy your weekends!
anytime
- Keith Burtis
this was great not only did I learn alot, I laughed out loud a bunch of times - makes for a great Friday. thanks! L.
- Lee Anne Orange
I look forward to seeing that org chart.
- Angela Lawson
Keith - thanks so much for guest moderating this week! You definitely rocked it out from the looks of it :)
- Sonny Gill
Q1: Friday August 7, 2009 - (via Jason Peck) Can businesses effectively outsource their community management? Have you seen it done well? Would you recommend it?
I have been mulling this over for a few weeks, Sonny. I think perhaps on a case-by-case basis. Can they really be clear with their mission? I am actually working on something that might take that on. The outsourcing piece.
- Angela
What I'm fighting with is the fact that community management is more than just one platform where an agency can reside. CM effects biz dev and relationships with your base, and so many other facets of your business.
- Sonny Gill
Yes, it is more than that so maybe it would have to be VERY specific. A lot of orgs may not yet see it as all encompassing in the way we do, Sonny.
- Angela
I think it's doable but not recommended. Comm management needs to be integrated, communication-wise into many other aspects of the business. It can be hard to do that if it's done externally.
- David Spinks
Okay, so maybe we are talking moderation vs. management?
- Angela
Good point Angela - breaking it down and giving them the piece for moderation vs. management? Management is a widespread strategy with communities, breaking it down to the moderation aspect of it is definitely feasible.
- Sonny Gill
Totally agree with the integration aspect as well as the division b/w moderation and management. This division also speaks to perhaps 2 people sharing the one role of Community Manager based on their skill sets
- Tanya McGinnity
@David - good thoughts. I've always preached about doing things internally as the people and evangelists you have within your company are the ones with the true passion and ones who very well have a stronger voice than an outsourced company, no matter if they understand all of your goals.
- Sonny Gill
moderation is only as good as the action taken afterwards. It's okay to outsource moderation only if you can still effectively tie it in to action internally.
- David Spinks
I agree Sonny. But maybe there is room for both. I think I may be talking myself into something here. I mean, if some really smart folks like us were at the helm. :-) It might work.
- Angela
@Angela - true! But the awesome people we have in this chat unfortunately aren't always the ones who understand this growing space and how it effects businesses. Like you said, not all orgs see it the way we do.
- Sonny Gill
I think as long as the agency/people moderating are as aware of your company's goals and community initiatives as you are...it might be possible. One dedicated team from an agency that handles one account?
- Teresa Basich
There is a difference between being a brand advocate and being a community manager. Sometimes these don't align depending on the person...
- Tanya McGinnity
Not all organizations intrinsically understand mgmt and actually *want* outside help (or agencies, like ours) to come in and help help.
- Bryan Person
@Teresa - that could be a possibility as well. Though resources always are an issue whether it's internal or external.
- Sonny Gill
Yes on Brand Advocate v. Comm Manager. What is about the term "agency" that turns me off when we're talking about community management and facilitation?
- Angela
You mentioned awareness of company goals and community initiatives: does the outsourced CM need some awareness of the business's marketplace and the profile(s) of the potential members too?
- Mathieu Ayel
I have to draw the marketing line at my organization often. had to do it just today but found a way to incorporate what they were asking but with my approach as a CM.
- Angela
@Sonny, that's the biggest hurdle, I think. If you outsource, how do you make sure your outside team will have all the resources available to properly moderate YOUR community?
- Teresa Basich
@Mathieu - I believe the outsourced company needs to understand the culture of said business for sure and represent them accordingly.
- Sonny Gill
At the end of it all, it's necessary to ask the question "Is this something the community wants or likes?" vs "Is this what I like?" "Is this what marketing/ product management/ my boss likes?" Sometimes communities tell us things that we don't want to hear.
- Tanya McGinnity
@Tanya - great point. Do what's best for the community still, even with such a large business decision.
- Sonny Gill
Complete understanding of company is a must regardless who manages community. Definitely challenging. Should also understand co goals and marketing. But to the outside world they just need to be a great people person and project an understanding of the company and industry.
- Jason Peck
from iPhone
On point with your additional thoughts, Jason. And thanks so much for spurring this question!
- Sonny Gill
Way to bring it home Jason with comment about how it appears to the outside. Definitely important--the customer/member perception.
- Angela
Would like to know if anyone has seen outsourcing this done right
- Jason Peck
from iPhone
I think it's better to bring someone in to help you get started with the community, but staff it internally long term.
- Jon Lebkowsky
@john I think that makes a lot of sense
- Jason Peck
from iPhone
What about specifically including mentoring sessions from the outsourced CM towards the inhouse moderators as part of the community dev plan to try to get the best of both worlds?
- Mathieu Ayel
@Mathieu I like that suggestion re: mentoring sessions to help people get their focus aligned.
- Tanya McGinnity
I have worked with several major companies that outsource community management. It is a very viable and cost effective option, but only works if the community managers are incorporated into the company's work and information flow. For successful outsourcing there has to be a solid partnership between the community managers and the company that includes weekly meetings, access to company resources, and a solid information escalation plan.
- Angela Lawson
Q2: Friday August 7, 2009 - (via Tanya) How do you deal with overly self-promoting folks in your communities? Guidelines are prevalent, but what if members overstep them?
When people go overboard in my community, the members step in. I haven't had to do anything more than ban obvious spammers. They can be hard on those types. I try not to step in too much when they are defending their culture and it's fair.
- Angela
Self-policing is definitely something I've seen done really well by many communities.
- Sonny Gill
Good point re: self policing guys.
- Tanya McGinnity
@Angela - you made an interesting point of monetizing to offer them more exposure. How would the community respond though?
- Sonny Gill
Do we run the risk of folks seeing communities as just another advertising channel?
- Tanya McGinnity
Well what I'm thinking about is a dedicated business page or section that people can choose via navigation and maybe even announcing it to the community as an option for them. I won't put it in their faces. Would be only if you want access.
- Angela
@Tanya - I think it's a balance we all need to understand. We all have our respective goals with community platforms, Twitter, etc. - whether we admit it or not. Just a matter of how we balance those goals w/those of the community.
- Sonny Gill
@Sue, I am cracking up at your "diplomatic word with them" comment.
- Angela
I think how the promoting is handled has much to do whether it's offensive or not. These mediums are promotional tools on many levels, getting offended speaks more about you than the person using a medium. there is a professional and respectful way of promoting, Auto-DM's and the like are not acceptable.
- Owen Greaves
CLOSING: Friday August 7, 2009 - Appreciate everyone who was able to make it to the chat today! Let us know how you've been enjoying #CmtyChat the last few weeks. What have you loved and what do you want to see/hear more of? We're all ears :)
Sonny, I missed the chat today (was talking to a Community Manager ;-) - is there an archive, or do I poke through each post?
- Mark Sylvester
Hey Mark - no worries, work does call sometimes! In FriendFeed you'll have to check out each post, but they're each organized by date and question number!
- Sonny Gill
Q4: Friday August 7, 2009 - Time is always an issue for many of us in this hyper-connected space. From a member's perspective, how do you manage your use and activity to where it's still beneficial to yourself and those communities?
There's a woman in my community who posts an insightful blog every morning. She leaves to take her kids to school I believe around 830 and she is gone for hours. But people know that she will post that morning blog and it garners more than 100 comments every morning. that is valuable to her and others and she doesn't spend all day in the community.
- Angela
That's a really awesome example at how you don't have to spend every waking moment within that community to share something of value! Love it.
- Sonny Gill
For my community and awesome relationships on Twitter, I spend a lot of time there to constantly stay connected - but admittedly, it burns you out sometimes and makes you take a step back sometimes. Each platform functions differently, is what I see.
- Sonny Gill
I've found that (as work demands) it is great to stay off twitter for a day or two. You come back fresh. One thing I do on LinkedIn for instance, is start discussions in some of my favorite groups and just wait for emails indicating a response then go back and forth as my schedule allows.
- Angela
@Angela - how do you see LinkedIn and connecting with that community, as it's quite a different platform than others?
- Sonny Gill
I think that having folks as dedicated to the success and functioning of the community helps CM's to 'share the load'. I have one such member in my group and she's been an angel at being a 'mini -me'!
- Tanya McGinnity
@Tanya - now that's a cool perspective. If your members are turning into evangelists helping lead the charge - it's quite the beautiful community!
- Sonny Gill
Q3: Friday August 7, 2009 - How do you activate your community to help in business development in a non-obtrusive way? Does a positive community/relationship typically foster organic growth?
Personally - I feel if you've built a strong base of users that believe in what your community and business is about, the bizdev side of things will eventually fall in place.
- Sonny Gill
Thoughts? :) I think this question is getting buried under the previous one, oops!
- Sonny Gill
I think it does really happen organically through the conversations that are taking place. Having a conversation fosters organic growth by nature of shining light on areas of the business that we don't normally see because of our specific blinders.
- Tanya McGinnity
@Tanya - definitely. And it does it in a way that we're not self-promoting ourselves or forcing the issue upon that community or consumers that may be interested.
- Sonny Gill
RANDOM: Friday August 7, 2009 - look forward to today's chat! Feel free to converse in the meantime here and shout any questions you would want brought up today. Thanks!
I'd like to hear how folks deal with overly self-promoting folks in their communities ie: those who are only involved in the community to push their corporate or personal agendas.
- Tanya McGinnity
Looking forward for my first cmtychat. Thanks to Angela's blog for making me aware of this chat!
- Mathieu Ayel
@Tanya - nice topic, how do you handle, taper down, such promotion.
- Sonny Gill
@Mathieu - Glad to have you here! Welcome :)
- Sonny Gill
Hey @Mathieu!!
- Angela
Hey there, everyone! Checking in from Boston this week.
- Bryan Person
I just had a conversation about this with my boss. If the community isn't ostracizing these folks, perhaps there is a way to monetize it and offer them more exposure, if they pay.
- Angela
I'll be sure to get Tanya's question up today also :)
- Sonny Gill
Interesting point Angela re: monetization... Thanks for adding my question to the mix Sonny!
- Tanya McGinnity
@Tanya I may have more to share on this in the future. I think we are going to try to monetization piece.
- Angela
Is this where all the cool kids are hanging now that Twitter is down?
Mark Burhop liked this
Welcome to Elba, for all us Twitter exiles. ;-)
- Amy Mengel
I feel a sense of reassurance here that my online peeps haven't just drifted away.
- Sonny Gill
I think so!
- Mark Burhop
Not sure about cool, but ok, yeah. :)
- SolidSmack
@burhop i bet you actually got something done this morning
- SolidSmack
In some ways I feel a little bit geeky that I immediately jumped to FF when Twitter went screwy. (but in a good way)
- Richie Escovedo
Hi Sonny! I think so.
- Lilian Mahoukou
@SolidSmack, was in a conf call anyway so didn't notice. Plus I have FF, Plurk and Facebook as backups. Worse case, I'll write notes and take pics for Flickr :-)
- Mark Burhop
I may start writing 140 character tweets in a notebook and post them on my wall for inspiration.
- Sonny Gill
Sonny: This is a great place to be no matter what's happening elsewhere :)
- Owen Greaves
Angela, thanks so much for facilitating!! This was a great discussion!!
- Jamie Pappas
Thanks Angela, I liked your numbering of the questions, it was very helpful - and your commenting within then kept the convo going!
- Mark Sylvester
Seriously - thanks so much for being our guest moderator today, Angela. You rocked it and kept everything at a fast pace. I liked the quick succession of questions. :)
- Sonny Gill
thank you for facilitating today!
- Lauren Vargas
This was fun. How often is being educated fun? And thanks for the compliment Sonny. There are some super smart folks in this room. Let's all connect on twitter. You can email me at Angela@AngelaConnor.com if you want.
- Angela
Lauren, Mark and Jamie. So nice chatting with you. Jon too.
- Angela
Thanks for this great convo! Important questions about engagement. I'll try to bring some french friends interested in community management :)
- Lilian Mahoukou
Looks like I missed a great chat. Glad to read the transcript & check out all the insights. Thanks folks!
- Tanya McGinnity
what do you do with the GOLO profiles?
- Chris Geier
That's a great idea, especially where people do not know each other or there has been an influx of new people.
- Brenda Young
are the interviews, text, audio video?
- Chris Geier
We have a mil community spotlight every Thursday where we feature other initiatives/groups, etc.
- Lauren Vargas
Q2: How to K2 a series of technical how to videos that focus on specific (usually requested) K2 topics and run through how to accomplish them
- Chris Geier
The spotlight breaks down competitive barriers and fosters discussion
- Lauren Vargas
Hi Chris, I do a phone interview and transcribe it. Then post a blog. Here is a link to all of them http://www.wral.com/golo...
- Angela
Lauren do you run into roadblocks with doing profiles on miliatry?
- Chris Geier
Chris, no...always ask permission...bring them into the loop and it is all good.
- Lauren Vargas
Angela, the look great. Nice work
- Chris Geier
How about a newsletter. Any successful newsletters? I started a monthly newsletter in January.
- Angela
We do scheduled group phone calls and record as podcasts & MP3 & post into community for those not there.
- Jeff Hurt
(newsletters) have had success with internal community but not external customers
- Lauren Vargas
We have a newsletter that has good circulation, but i have been trying to make it more "interactive" Not having a ton of success with it.
- Chris Geier
Lauren: Military spotlight sounds cool! Group phone calls, jeff? I need to steal that idea.
- Angela
Sorry to be dense, what is GOLO?
- Mark Sylvester
Lauren, agree internal is much easier to do.
- Chris Geier
Mark check out http://growingsuccessfulonline...
- Chris Geier
@Angela We found that certain issues became "hot" fast & open phone calls became a good way to discuss those issues openly with those that wanted it. We get good response from them.
- Jeff Hurt
We also do member profiles through blogtalkradio which are recorded as podcasts & MP3s. Those have live caller element and get posted in community as well. We have larger audience with the downloads.
- Jeff Hurt
When I was Online Community Director at Whole Foods Market, we started a "food haiku" topic that took off in a big way. Surprised us.
- Jon Lebkowsky
Jeff would love to hear more about how you do that on blogtalk radio
- Chris Geier
@Jon That is so cool.
- Jeff Hurt
Hi Jon: Can you write a food haiku for us right now, on the spot?
- Angela
That's really neat, Jon. It's really the small things that get people excited and want to contribute.
- Sonny Gill
Jeff. I never thought about using Blogtalk Radio. That is genius!!
- Angela
Food haiku was cool / It opened up some lurkers / And gave us a treat.
- Jon Lebkowsky
Mark, GOLO is the community I manage. Sorry I wasn't clear. www.wral.com/golo
- Angela
We do weekly user profiles where users share their own experiences, what brought them to the community, what they do there, etc.
- Jamie Pappas
@Chris very easy to do as it's internet radio & free. We schedule three to four people for a 60 minute chat & spend 15-20 minutes with each. We have two people do each interview & promote. It is good engagment & drives audience participation
- Jeff Hurt
We also do monthly "Social Media Socials" - 1 focused topic per month on community or social media tools and how they're being used in the enterprise - people love these
- Jamie Pappas
Jeff: Sounds like Chris and I are going to steal that Blogtalk Radio idea. That is such a valuable tip. I will reach out to you offline.
- Angela
Jamie, are the social media tools based on how to get more out of what they already are using, or exposure to tools that they can add to the mix? Who decides on the topics? The Community, or is it based on insight you are getting from the Community analytically?
- Mark Sylvester
Mark: We do a mix of both what they're already using as well as introduce them to tools that others are using that might be helpful to them. We ask people to propose topics of interest to them for the sessions, which they do sometimes, and when that doesn't happen, we come up with a topic that we think will be interesting based on conversations and comments from past sessions.
- Jamie Pappas
Jamie, how far in advance do you plan the content for the sessions? Week? Month? Quarter?
- Mark Sylvester
Mark: We typically do them about 3-4 weeks in advance. By the time one session ends, we're working on the agenda for the next one. Sometimes farther in advance if there are hot requested topics that we are able to line up.
- Jamie Pappas
Mark: Should add that the format we use is a few slides - 10 or less with pictures and not too wordy, but those are really the supporting materials or take-aways. We strive for it to be conversational in nature because we want it to be helpful to the attendees to get their thoughts and questions out on the table and discuss them with others.
- Jamie Pappas
Absolutely! totally neccessary
- Chris Geier
I believe in this 100% Chris. glad you're with me.
- Angela
Absolutely!! I love being a part of the community, and it helps me personally to know what's going on and participate.
- Jamie Pappas
of course!
- Lauren Vargas
Totally agree with this. You've actually got to become a PART of the community, not just oversee things.
- Sonny Gill
If you are the Mayor of your Community (thx @derekshowerman for reference) that also means you are a citizen of the Community first - if you act that way you actually have much more credibility as Mayor (CM) - I love thinking about being a citizen first and CM second
- Mark Sylvester
Mayor is an excellent analogy. Unfortunately we sometimes double as the warden. Okay, that was sour grapes. I know....
- Angela
the Mayor metaphor extends nicely Angela - think about taggers spraypainting the walls - this is not a lot different than managing disruptive posters, is it? When you approach the job as a Mayor, you tend to be more 'political', which can be a good thing actually. imo
- Mark Sylvester
You are right Mark. Very right. I am going to give that more thought. I think it may give me a different perspective. I am the Mayor!
- Angela
Yep, definitely. Though, I do find myself trying to stay far away from controversial topics, which can be tough in a very political community.
- Steph
It's important to be part of the community and to have horizontal relationships. I guess members like to their CM to be "one of them", not just an add-on, a plug-in or a "corporate agent"
- Lilian Mahoukou
You need a benevolent dictator who will remove the user pretty quickly if it's blatant disruption. Stalling undermines trust in mgt.
- Jon Lebkowsky
depends on the level of disruption.
- Chris Geier
They stifle engagement by veering of course w/their nonsense and getting ppls thoughts elsewhere. But as Chris said, depends on the level of disruption on how to react.
- Sonny Gill
I agree with @Chris. Dpends on the type of offense, person disrupting, how often they've done that, etc.
- Jeff Hurt
Whoa Jon: A benevolent dictator. Can't you see that in a job description? I have had some serious trolls and it has made me tough.
- Angela
Generally, by trying to intimidate newer users ("this isn't how it works here") or spewing lots of angry rhetoric and/or filling up with lots of comments. If it's a violation of the site's guidelines it gets pulled, but often there's not much that can be done without seeming like someone is getting singled out.
- Steph
Steph: Yes, it is horrifying to see new users pushed away by bullies!
- Angela
Steph, I think removal is the best bet for a true troll/disrupter. Thenn possibly a private back-end conversation. I could tell a rather long story about a user to practically trashed the WELL before the community managers dealt with the problem. He was taking advantage of the WELL's commitment to free speech. (WELL = http://well.com)
- Jon Lebkowsky
But where do you draw the line between disruption and disagreement? A lot of what community members consider "trolling" (and react to as such) is often simply someone with a different viewpoint.
- Steph
The benevolent dictator emerged from Howard Rheingold's Electric Minds in the 90s. Realization was that a social process for dealing with a troll or blatant disruptor undermines trust and social fabric, so you have to be prepared to take unilateral action.
- Jon Lebkowsky
Disruptive members are often very harmful to the community and our approach is to contact them offline and explain our concerns and refer them back to our community guidelines. We might be the exception, but this has always worked for us to correct the behavior and folks are appreciative of the feedback.
- Jamie Pappas
Steph: I've never found it hard to tell someone whose goal is to disrupt from someone who is merely disagreeing or being disagreeable.
- Jon Lebkowsky
Someone who's destructive can take your community down pretty quickly if you try to handle with open social process.
- Jon Lebkowsky
I think it depends on the community, Jon. If heavy debate and political issues are a huge component, it can be difficult to draw the line of someone who is being disruptive to be disruptive, or who is interacting in a way that is perhaps not the best.
- Steph
And not handling all community members with open process only leaves the door wide open for accusations of bias and censorship.
- Steph
Steph: Are you saying that it's best to do it all out in the open? Or is there ever a situation to treat someone differently?
- Angela
Steph: We do it offline so as not to embarrass the person and lose their trust in us and confidence in the community. We document everything via email, so there's a record of it. But our ultimate goal in the whole process is to educate and information and win them over, not embarrass or alienate, which I have seen happen all to often when correction's done in public.
- Jamie Pappas
I don't think there is a situation to treat someone differently. Given a chance, most trolls/disruptive users will wind up violating the site's standards enough to warrant removal
- Steph
Steph: I think I need a pep talk from you about being more consistent with this.
- Angela
Jamie--sorry, my previous comment wasn't clear! We correct via email and private discussion, but I was referring to being open about the standards that we hold people to. There is no separate set of procedures for someone who appears to be a troll.
- Steph
Ha, I wish I had one! :) It's tough, and something we're working on too.
- Steph
A lot of transparency about standards seems to have been helpful; there will always be people who are of the 'free speech no matter what' persuasion, who want to cry censorship any time something is removed, but most reasonable community members will start to understand and speak up.
- Steph
Hey Steph, Here is what I tell people about free speech: "Free speech is a constitutional right designed to keep the federal government from making laws to limit it. It does not mean the public has the right to say whatever it wants on a privately-owned Web site. Our goal is to create an environment for civil and productive community dialogue. We hope you will contribute to that goal and have fun along the way!"
- Angela
We say something similar, but I find it doesn't always sink in! A high sense of ownership seems to translate into a lot of strong opinions on how the site should be run. I'm thrilled to see that our community cares that much, but sometimes it means a lot of back and forth on things.
- Steph
Steph: Ah yes - I agree with you completely on being open and transparent on the standards people are held to! Absolutely! :-)
- Jamie Pappas
Give them easy opportunities to jump into the conversation with a minimal amount of fear. Open ended questions, more thought and opinion questions
- Chris Geier
Pull in those Whole Foods lurkers with real food. :) Just kidding. I can tell who's in community live so I'll often ask them publicly for a response. Invite them personally to become involved.
- Jeff Hurt
I like to do polls with crazy answers. Gets them involved because they can't resist.
- Angela
That's a good example Angela. Doing something simple and fun, baby steps for them.
- Sonny Gill
what do you use for polls
- Chris Geier
An example might be: What do you think of Sarah Palin? Answers would be something like:A: I think she is one smart cookie. B: I think she should be running for president. C. She should have remained a soccer mom. D. Why should I waste time thinking about her?
- Angela
Setting the right context (friendly, open, safe) is the best I know to do. You never know, though, what will cause someone to uncloak.
- Jon Lebkowsky
I pull people in with questions like: "What was the scariest day of your life" and I tell some story about myself to get it started.
- Angela
Have to second crazy or controversial polls as a way to suck in lurkers! We have had great success with polls...the answers/feedback lead to follow-up posts and features.
- Lauren Vargas
So what is a good way/format to do polls? Just in a forum?
- Chris Geier
Wide-open questions are one way "Does anyone know why..?" or "What is the big deal about..?" -- asking questions broadly, about questions with a broad range of appeal for your user group.
- Steve Lynch
from twhirl
Steve: And I second that. I posted a blog a few weeks ago called: Why do people drive 15mph when it rains. Boy they gave it to me in that post. But it was worth it! 100 comments in less than 20 minutes.
- Angela
A wide variety of topics that have opinion vs. factual answers has worked well for us to pull in lurkers. It seems one key area of not contributing is not wanting to be wrong in front of peers - when asking folks for their opinion, it makes the conversation much more neutral and tends to get them to jump in quicker.
- Jamie Pappas
Jamie: Wow, it is great that you recognized that fear and found a way to create a better experience. I applaud that.
- Angela
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