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Mark Collier › Likes
Modern life for the active computer user.
arieana, michelle, urdumania1 and 116 other people liked this
Yeah, that's about right, except we need a Commute panel showing dude playing on his iPhone in the bus/train/plane.
- iTad
I write software in my sleep during the busiest facets of my project; and they work in the morning
- RAPatton
RAP- done that myself once or twice :) Creepy.
- Roberto Bonini
Me too, but the software I write in my sleep usually just does stupid stuff that we don't really need. :)
- iTad
I don't know what's freakier, the fact that you write code in your sleep or the fact that you remember it when you wake up.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
I dreamed last night that I had to organize a meet up, based on #hashtags, and everyone had the wrong tags. Everyone ranting at me woke me up at 5am.
- Ian May
Sad but it's true!
- Dru Kelly
i was dreaming about new features in feedly last night...but they aren't there this morning.
- Trent Olson
Trent: if you share with us some of those dreams, we will try to look into making them reality :-) Have a great sunday!
- Edwin Khodabakchian
thanks Edwin! to be honest, they weren't very good anyway! you've already implemented my "exclude websites from using mini bar" idea, for which i'm hugely thankful...
- Trent Olson
Great Joefy, that is ME!
- John Stringfellow
sort of me, except my workouts 5 days a week for my chiseled body ;o)
- sofarsoShawn ~presque...
that is definitely me.....
- cris
yup thats my life, how depressing
- sean percival
Haha it's my boyfriend and his friends!
- Brandy Lea
seen this before.... years ago... made me laugh then and still does..gotta admit it almost rings true!
- Rob Sellen :o)
maybe that's why I wake up at 3 am.
- @CrystalinaB
Searching for something has led me past this post. Was going to press the "like" button and realized I already did. So this is my second "like".
- Sarah Peterman
This is definitely true for me. I sometimes think about programs I'm working on in my sleep too.
- Mike Child
Kevin, Daniel Rowley, Valley and 124 other people liked this
i love this :)
- Hayk
me too, hayk. :)
- Mona Nomura
Mona :)
- Hayk
geeky comics, i likey!
- imabonehead
heh
- Charlie Anzman
Yar!
- Jay Wiegmann
awesome!
- Harold Green
heck yes :)
- Mona Nomura
*chuckles*
- The Fat Oracle
what an idea
- macro
Sorry for all the bumpage, people. I'm using "search" for the first time ever.
- Mona Nomura
@dejon97 no one has accurately reported what Cisco is doing in servers and datacenters. Fundamental changes. Coming Monday.
Victor Ryden 美久太阿, Bill Romanos, Susan Beebe and 3 other people liked this
Would like to hear more. How is it related to the IBM's Dynamic Infrastructure for instance?
- jk5027a
Matthew: the big announcement is on Monday.
- Robert Scoble
Excited, I like Cisco. I want to see them do well. Cisco Catalyst 5900 was my biggest config. challenge
- Susan Beebe
They shall be bringing you the whole rack from switch to server. All these companies want to control the data center, and this is how Cisco wants to do it.
- Eric - seven eleven
Are Blogs Losing Their Authority To The Statusphere? - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
Kol Tregaskes, Jason Nelson, Gee Ranasinha and 35 other people liked this
"Twitter and friendfeed work better for me too. http://www.friendfeed.com/scoblei... is where you can find me now. Great article."
- Robert Scoble
Have to agree. My blog is currently woefully neglected.
- Roberto Bonini
Got rid of my blog months ago.
- Michael Forian
Interesting discussion. I don't think they are losing authority, In fact, I'd argue that they carry more weight as to what topics matter, because taking the time to blog on something rather that simply tweet it is an indication of the weight placed by the blogger on the topic.
- Karoli
a good article.
- Thomas Hawk
Muy interesante, de hecho noto que mis a-list bloguean menos y que yo paso mas tiempo en FF y Twitter (menos en greader)
- Juan Carlos Sánchez
twitter allows you to publish your views on something without having to write a paragraph, when sometimes a sentence all you need
- Kim Landwehr
Blogs are like Hard Drives - they make little sense when storage become infinite. The live web conversation is more about time than space - blogs were always about opening a personal space. FF plays with time - multi-asymmetrical conversations that encourages bespoke aggregate. It's not about authority; it's more about "pace of participation" => reliability and transparency.
- zeroinfluencer
Without blogs there would be no Friendfeed
- paul mooney
Long-form blogs are still best for quality content, as demonstrated by this quality techcrunch post. But there’s also tremendous value in the timeliness and naked transparency of Twitter and FrendFeed. Both forms are valuable. Funnily enough I express this belief better in long form over on my blog http://hitching.net/tag... and have just written a WordPress plugin that attempts to combine the two forms.
- Bob Hitching
David, from another angle: because oceans exist, do we get rid of lakes (or rivers or streams)? Did people stop writing novels when someone invented the short story?
- Rebecca Lasley
I'm certainly spending less time on my blog, more time on Twitter, etc
- Doug
I am spending much less time on writing blog posts and more time on updating short post on Twitter, FF, Plurk et al
- Sid
@boxbe I don't know what you do and I don't f'ing care! Your auto-respond sign-up extortion email is reminiscent of old skool Plaxo tactics!
Mark Collier liked this
Even though Kweller changed genres he has not changed what makes his songs great, catchy guitar licks, tight lyrics, and catchy vocal hooks. - http://musebin.com/ben-kwe...
Mark Collier liked this
Can someone send me the new album ? Bought the CD but it hasn't shipped.
- Mark Collier
does anyone really think a picture of michael phelps using marijuana "destroys his career"? hardly. awesome news for marijuana growers too.
Adewale Oshineye, Mark Collier, Mr. Gunn and Michael R. Bernstein liked this
Transition - http://ffffound.com/image...
Craig Deakin, Neven Jones, Richard Black and 16 other people liked this
scary
- Floyd Davenport
Wow, that's actually kinda cool!
- Seth Hoogeboom
Obama is allowing 13 other states to adopt CA emissions standards - http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
Mark Collier liked this
Microsoft killed Flight Simulator? Wow. http://www.steve-lacey.com/blogarc... @monkchips tells why thats bad
Richard Anderson, Martha, Morton Fox and 7 other people liked this
whoa
- Jay
woah.. never thought I'd see that title go down! It'd be like EA cancelling FIFA or Madden :O
- alphaxion
"We are committed to the Flight Simulator franchise which has proven to be a successful PC based game for the last 27 years. You should expect us to continue to invest in enabling great LIVE experiences on Windows, including flying games, but we have nothing specific to announce at this time." comment by MSFT PR made on confirming basic story.
- David HC Soul
my secret time saving email tip: change your desktop email signature to "Sent from iPhone" - then write 1 sentence replies! sshhh
Ashish Bogawat, Jesper Kjær Hansen, Daniel Rowley and 96 other people liked this
That's GENIUS!
- Chris Saad
I do that all the time. Helps if you don't capitalize words and make misspellings too--looks more authentic.
- Andrew Leyden
sweet. I'm going to start doing that so people will think I have an iPhone.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
My secret too. Be careful not to type too much w/o errors or it will raise suspicion.
- Craig Mische
That is genius actually, I like it.
- xero
how many of us do this? (and probably have people do it back to us ;-)
- Tobias Peggs
OMG. brilliance.
- Anthony Baker
LOVE THIS!
- BEX
Don't do this with people that know what the X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (5G77) email header means.
- Lars Trieloff
THAT IS AWESOME!!!
- Keith - @tsudo
I like it a lot. My emails have become shorter and shorter anyway, so used to twitter.
- jjprojects
smart :)
- Sebastian
Just don't ever attach anything! You'll give yourself away.
- Gregory Cohen
BRILLIANT!!!!
- Paul
Classic
- Nina Morena
Simple for me, mine does come from an iPhone 98% of the time.
- Tsali - A dude man
Oh.... that's GOOD....
- Ciaoenrico
I wonder if people would think I'm never in the office ;-) Double benefit!
- Ken Stewart | ChangeForge
Microsoft Bid to Beat Google Builds on a History of Misses - WSJ.com - http://online.wsj.com/article...
Iggy Kin, Ryan, Daniel Rowley and 43 other people liked this
"In 2000, before Google married Web search with advertising, Microsoft had a rudimentary system that did the same, called Keywords, running on the Web. Advertisers began signing up. But Microsoft executives, in part fearing the company would cannibalize other revenue streams, shut it down after two months. Microsoft got a second chance in early 2003 when top executives proposed that the company buy Overture Services Inc., a pioneer in combining search results with ads. Mr. Ballmer and Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates shot down the deal. Instead, Overture was snapped up by Yahoo -- and now forms a cornerstone of the Yahoo unit Mr. Ballmer covets."
- Bret Taylor
from Bookmarklet
If you can't read the article because of the subscription wall, click through from here: http://news.google.com/news...
- Bret Taylor
It's inevitable that Microsoft eventually false prey to the same problems that it took advantage of in previous decades to become the top dog.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
Why such myopia on advertising as the holy grail? Is the goal of computing to solve how best to show advertisements?
- Hayes Haugen
Hayes - maybe not computing overall, but looking at just the web industry I'd have to say "kinda"...it's depressing to think about it in those terms, but really - what else is keeping businesses online afloat? (paid subscriptions don't seem to cut it based on the relatively few number of successes)
- Adam Kazwell
Well, the advertising pie is finite, people are becoming insensitive or installing adblock and company that charge for their services don't have to serve two masters. The big thing today is not the next big thing, by definition.
- Antonio Piccolboni
Screw it, I'm going back to altavista
- Hayes Haugen
The need for advertising on the web is no different than the need for advertising on tv and radio. The only alternative is to have pledge drives like NPR and wikipedia.
- Robert Felty
Bret thanks for tip on viewing WSJ content via Google News
- Shakeel Mahate
@Robert: I pay a cable bill every month, subscribe to magazines, purchase a newspaper, subscribe to weather underground, etc. There are multiple paths to revenue. Ads are important but not the only model in content distribution.
- Hayes Haugen
Obama to Bush: I Can Release Your Records. Don't Like It? Sue. http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblo...
Daryl Spitzer, Alex Gibbons, Jim Goldstein and 9 other people liked this
This is a really good sign.
- Dave Winer
Releasing the records would help to move forward to a more just society, now and in the future.
- Betsy Devine
Yes. I want transparency in government as long it isn't a threat to national security.
- Aaron Hood
21.80694444 hours until the Obama inauguration.
Steve Garfield, Duncan Riley and Mark Collier liked this
Make that 20.80694444
- Phil Whelan
This is fairly outrageous. HBO made YouTube take down the Pete Seeger/Bruce Springsteen "This is Your Land" video. http://www.scripting.com/stories...
Brian Hill, Dossy Shiobara and Mark Collier liked this
This land might be our land, but that video certainly isn't. It was only made for you and me. :-)
- Dossy Shiobara
PBS Bill Moyer's criticizes Gaza offensive. Anti-Defamation League rushes in and calls Moyers a "racist." - http://www.reddit.com/r...
Jeremy Dunck, Sean McBride, Mark Collier and 5 other people liked this
Typical. If you can't deny the charge, attack the messenger. Are the Israelis so special they can't be criticized? You know, the Muslims feel the same way. It's aggravating.
- Jack&Cleo
BTW-I was referring to the attempts by Muslim nations to get "blasphemy" outlawed by the U.N. Criminalizing criticism only makes you look childish.
- Jack&Cleo
The first half of Moyer's segment is warped (watch it), the balance is fine/fair; Israel is not killing indiscriminantly and to compare it to Hamas is to compare Rudy Guliani to OBL
- Bob Sonin
its nonsense..... all these "anti-defamation" leagues do is squelch dialogue and encourage people to be hyper-sensitive. It really makes me sick...
- Jeffrey Canton
It would be very easy to turn this nasty smear rhetoric around and use it against the ADL and Abe Foxman in spades, but that wouldn't be right. M.J. Rosenberg did a good job in defending Moyers, without losing his cool.
- Sean McBride
Sidenote: is the ADL now officially advising Youtube and Google on matters of political correctness? If so, that could be a disturbing development. The ADL was caught illegally spying on Americans some years ago -- Google it. Google is potentially the most powerful spying instrument ever created. Google needs to inspire all the trust it can possibly muster, given the enormous power it...
more...
- Sean McBride
USA government uses Google to spy. What else is new! LOL
- Igor The Troll יִצְחָק
Wow -- that's reassuring.
- Sean McBride
cshirky: Yahoo broke the del.icio.us user experience for me by continually - http://twitter.com/cshirky...
Mark Collier and Adewale Oshineye liked this
What I don't understand is why I have to continually log in from MY FUCKING BROWSER PLUGIN. I mean really, wtf?!?
- Leonard
I heard it was the paranoids that forced that. But the browser plugin should avail itself of some other method to store the password.
- Neil Kandalgaonkar
Hmm, I can understand them not wanting them to store the pw, but they could trivially generate some other sort of long-lived auth token - if only Delicious had some sort of API key system... Also, a bit puzzled by why the paranoids would care so much - Del's not on yahoo.com. It just serves to piss people off all the time. Even if there were expiry, not sure why that isn't something that gets done automatically w/ usage. It's pretty offensive that the browser plugin asks for my pw when I was just using it
- Leonard
Datacenter Porn:
ropiku, ɐzəʇɹoɯ, Like and 63 other people liked this
We are getting a tour of http://www.gogrid.com 's datacenter. Cloud computing competitor of Rackspace and Amazon. Thanks to http://www.friendfeed.com/hightec... (aka Michael Sheehan) for getting us in.
- Robert Scoble
from email
that's hot.
- drew olanoff
it makes me feel funny down there
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Oh yeah, sexy bits! ;-)
- masa media - Martin
Nice, but is she more than just a pretty face? ;)
- John Denver
Now you're talkin, Scoble....welcome to the party, pal!
- Live4Emma (L4S)
How noisy is noise in there?
- Stefanos Kofopoulos
so what's behind the curtains?
- Mike Chelen
They allow pictures in there? ;-)
- Thomas Beutel
unf unf
- Charlieray
i love to sleep in dc noise. :) awesome!
- Yusuf Yıldız
Love these pictures...especially the cables. How come they can make miles of cables look so neat (and colorful) while the back of my desk is a gray tangle of dust bunnies?
- Pete Marshall
My peta just flopped! *zing*
- Stephen Breen
Pete, two words "Cable Management" Panduit has some pretty interesting options. See here for some examples, http://bit.ly/ZDG4
- jho
Whoops, bad link. Fixed.
- jho
Very inappropriate, Scoble. Now I gotta go to Graybar. ;)
- Chris Mayer
yeah, baby...virtualize me
- Dave Cadoff
Robert, the next time you want to hug hundreds of terabytes of storage, you have an open invitation to swing by BlueArc. We would be pleased to have you as our guest.
- BlueArc
Jizz in My Pants.....
- Sean Montgomery
Haha! Thanks for the time you spent at GoGrid Robert! I was great spending time with you and Rocky!
- Michael Sheehan
Me likey. It also doesn't hurt that I'm a fan of GoGrid. Though I heard Amazon just implemented some wacky thing called a "graphical user interface" on EC2 about a week ago. ;-)
- Karim
Those are some junky servers. They should not have allowed pics. Does not speak well of them.
- Wayne
Wayne: they have 20,000 square feet of servers and stuff. Should I post more photos? I guess this is why most companies don't let people take photos of their data centers. There's always something to criticize. "You didn't do that wiring right."
- Robert Scoble
They have dozens of racks. I just picked ones with interesting colors and density of repeating lines.
- Robert Scoble
Oh yeah, pure IT Geek porn there. Currently cleaning trying to zoom in further on the racks. :)
- Robert Miller
WOW @jkrums posted the first photo of Hudson plane crash from an iPhone. Amazing photo! http://ad.vu/2hrc -- he was in first rescue group.
Charlie Anzman, chris dalby, Aaron Draczynski and 15 other people liked this
i remember hearing something a while back saying the mainstream media considers twitter/blogging/citizen journalism worthless...
- Glenn Batuyong
Silicon Alley Insider should get the credit for posting this: http://www.alleyinsider.com/2009...
- Robert Scoble
Depends... some very fine 'legit' writers (NYT's John Markoff comes to mind) follow serious bloggers, and hold some of them in high regard...
- Chris Gulker
Hudson river plane crash nyc - sources, all collection up to date, now krunch'd at http://krunchd.com/hudsonplane
- ewing2001akaNicomedy2010
macro- blogsearch has in general 270 macro blogs on this story ; compared with maybe 100.000 twitters on this, extremely slow as expected ; btw, coincidence that google took down 4 of their services today??? maybe they needed new server space for * this* [did google/nasa crash the hudson plane ?? [cp 2.o theory]...
more...
- ewing2001akaNicomedy2010
People are wrong to look at politics as if it were a sport. This stuff really matters. A corrupt tax man is trouble. Period.
Christian Burns , TobiasVerhoog.com and Mark Collier liked this
MINI Sales Up a Staggering 29% in 2008 - http://www.motoringfile.com/2009...
Mark Collier, Clarence Chiang, Jeff (Team マクダジ ) and Robert Scoble liked this
we saw Waltz With Bashir last night at Landmark Sunshine on the lower east side. very hard not to view in the context of what’s happening in Gaza. i’m not on either side to be honest, but I don’t like war. and this movie showcases one of the awful sides of war. the animation is amazing too. - http://waltzwithbashir.com/
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Amit Morson, naveen and Mark Collier liked this
i hate that facebook is iframing links that i click on from posted items. that totally sucks.
Mark Collier liked this
I haven't had the guts to push the most graphic photos through Twitter, but that doesn't mean I'm not moved by them, I am.
Mark Collier liked this
Betw 2003 and 2008, while we were obsessed with Iraq, I wondered what urgent priority we were ignoring. It was the housing bubble.
kamla bhatt, Ashwin Bharambe, Paul Buchheit and 2 other people liked this
If Canada were shelling Seattle, damn right we'd attack. But there's a reason they're not shelling us. We aren't occupying their homeland.
Phillip Stewart, raul, Prolific Programmer and 30 other people liked this
Bingo. A no-brainer.
- Sean McBride
William, they can call you whatever they want. Frankly, I'm fairly anti-Israel myself. I don't know why people are willing to put up with so much nonsense from them.
- Dave Winer
What if Canada decided the parts of ND and MN ceded to the US by GB in 1818 was illegal because Canada was independent and GB had no authority to do so? Even though several other nations in the world thought the land belonged to the US, Canada would have good reason to say otherwise. Or if all of the remaining indigenous peoples of Mexico rose up against those with Spanish heritage because many years ago their land was stolen from them and they want it back.
- xero
It's really simple -- states shouldn't engage in the wholesale slaughter of civilians, women and children. There is nothing to argue about on this.
- Sean McBride
As American taxpayers, you fund their actions.
- Aaron deMello
Israel does not occupies Gaza anymore. Israel pulled out from Gaza two years ago - that's a history fact and I have no idea why the media keeps saying Israel occupies Gaza - they don't bother to change their bias (but who cares anyhow).
- N.G. Gordon - RadarSync
N.G., international law is pretty clear - if you control the borders, the airspace and the money and openly reserve the right to enter at any time for any reason you see fit, it's an occupation. That's international law, not opinion.
- Boris Gordon
Even if Israel weren't occupying Gaza, they occupy the West Bank. If Canada only occupied Seattle/Washington does that mean that the people of California have no right to resist with their fellow Americans?
- Boris Gordon
A country/state can only occupy another if the military is doing the occupation...
- xero
Who do *you* think is occupying Gaza and West Bank? The Israeli Chess Club? The Seniors Knitting Circle? Of course it's a military occupation.
- Boris Gordon
Do you think Israel *wants* to occupy these places? If Canadians lived there, we'd be out in a heartbeat.
- Dror Shimshowitz
Maybe Israel should let the Palestinians sell cigarettes and run the casinos.
- Bill Seitz
"Do you think Israel *wants* to occupy these places" - well apparently so, as all evidence suggests that they've been steadily settling greater and greater amounts of Palestinian land ever since 1948. Shall we draw some fine distinction between some tiny sliver of Bantustan left to the Gazans and the rest of Israel then? Is that what you mean by "these places" - the leftovers after the all good bits are forcibly colonised?
- Scot Mcphee
It's easy to chatter from far, when you live in a peaceful area without the need to face fear and horror. FYI Canada supports Israel cause stated only yesterday that Hamas (or what was left from it) should be blamed for the Palestinian tragedy. I don't really think any of you care, since i haven't seen any complaints when hundreds are getting killed in Iraq every month or while...
more...
- Nir Ben Yona
Peter Simard: isn't it about time for you to admit that you know very little about the founding of Israel, the history of Zionism and the history of Mideast politics in general? You are repeating simplistic propaganda talking points from one side -- the Israeli side. If Americans violently resisted the violent creation of a Zionist state on their territory, would they be considered terrorists?
- Sean McBride
From the standpoint of the residents on the land which Russian and European Zionists seized by force, Zionism was an enormous provocation.
- Sean McBride
Nir Ben Yona -- Americans are not bogged down in ethnic and religious conflicts of the kind with which Israel is afflicted, because America is a modern Western democracy, not a messianic ethno-religious nationalist enterprise building settlements on the territory of our neighbors. Give up the ethnic and religious nationalist militancy, and those kinds of conflicts will go away.
- Sean McBride
@Sean actually America is indeed bogged down ins uch conflicts haha - Iraq and Israel
- Chris Saad
Chris -- the main reason we are bogged down in both conflicts is -- you guessed it, I am sure.
- Sean McBride
I know the reasons - just kidding around
- Chris Saad
A lot of comments seem to be dancing around the core issue: for Hamas, there is no part of Israel that is not an occupation of their homeland. It's not about what Israel does in Gaza or the West Bank. It's fundamentally about opposition to the existence of the State of Israel.
- Michael Markman
Hamas is an extreme reaction to a real problem. Focusing on them is like focusing on a rash instead of the virus
- Chris Saad
Chris, you talk as if the Hamas is not the ruling body of Gaza.
- Amit Morson
Dave, they've got their fucking land, their a bunch of terrorits holding the Palestinians to ransom. There's a reason the US is 100% behind Israel, because they're on the same side. Dave why don't you join your local Hamas club, that's right you an't because there a terrorist orgaization and can't recruit in the US, so get off your ass and head to the middle east and sign up for their "cause" if that's what you think.
- Donovan Slennon
@Sean IMHO America is more conservative and religious than you might think. Not bogged? for decades you've been dealing with slavery and ethnic debates between blacks and whites UNTIL TODAY isn't it? Many of us would like to see a separation between "religion and state", however the other side lives according to religious rules and you can't ignore it. PS: FYI, Peter is damn right about the routes of the Israeli concept
- Nir Ben Yona
Attacks on Americans by pro-Israel activists and militants: Donovan Slennon's post is an excellent example of the genre. They are going to backfire in the long run.
- Sean McBride
Israel has been out of Gaza for two years. What are you talking about?
- Ouriel Ohayon
What I find astounding is the total absence of any kind of outcry and protest over the thousands of rockets fired into Israeli cities and towns before this incursion. There are children living in those cities and towns too and the fact that Israelis may be more accustomed to taking refuge in shelters built for this purpose doesn't change the heinous nature of Hamas' repeated attacks.
- Paul Jacobson
from twhirl
Nir: Israel is an ethno-religious nationalist state, which much more closely resembles white South Africa than the United States. America is not organized around the interests of any particular ethnic or religious group. America would be like Israel if it were a militant Anglo-Christian state which brutally discriminated against Jews and other ethnic and religious outgroups.
- Sean McBride
Sean, no attacks on Americans here, just an attack on a bad argument that happens to be made by an American. Israel and America are busom buddies because they've got the same DNA, they are not wild.
- Donovan Slennon
Paul Jacobson: how many Palestinian civilians has Israel killed since its founding? How much territory has it seized from Palestinians by terrorism and force? And why in the world should Americans get sucked into the middle of foreign ethnic and religious wars, when Americans have worked so hard to get beyond ethnic and religious conflicts within their own borders?
- Sean McBride
Donovan: by this time, many Americans, from presidents on down, have run out of patience with hearing any more violent rhetoric from any side in Mideast ethnic and religious wars. The non-stop hysteria becomes intolerable after a point. The whole point of modern Western democracies is to rise above these kinds of petty and self-destructive conflicts and focus on more productive issues.
- Sean McBride
Michael Markman -- if the United States redefined itself as an Anglo-Christian state, would enormous conflict and violence ensue? Of course. Ethno-religious states tend to generate tremendous conflict, and especially when they are implanted by terrorism and force on the territory of other ethnic and religious groups. There is a simple solution: get beyond the primitive identity politics.
- Sean McBride
Peter -- would Americans, Europeans, Canadians, Russians, Chinese or any other major population groups agree that Israel has a right to exist on their territories? Of course not. Where is your sense of realism? Even David Ben-Gurion understood that Arab resistance to the creation of Israel was perfectly reasonable.
- Sean McBride
David Ben-Gurion: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
- Sean McBride
Btw Palestinians =! Muslims - There is/was Christian, Jewish and Islamic Palestinians
- Chris Saad
@Sean If you ask me, America is involved because: 1) Oil 2) afraid the Middle East conflicts will reach its front door (September 11th anyone). IMO this is just the beginning since 30M Muslims live in Europe and it looks like a ticking bomb that is about to explode any second. But what do i care, I'm just a gadgets fanatic.
- Nir Ben Yona
@Chris Saad: the problem is more complicated since we have internal Muslim Shia-Sunni wars.
- Nir Ben Yona
Mark -- most Americans are smart enough, and sane enough, to realize that you don't push your ethnic and religious hysteria front and center in your relations with others! :) It is difficult to imagine behavior that is more self-destructive than this. The backlash is going to be something to behold when it finally comes.
- Sean McBride
Sean, your distorted perception of Israel at it again...
- Amit Morson
Let me emphasize, by the way, that this isn't about Jews and Muslims. Many Jews and Muslims get along in multicultural societies and modern Western democracies, and haven't the slightest interest in getting sucked into religious wars. Quite the contrary.
- Sean McBride
You are occupying the native american’s homeland, now get the fuck out of northern america. No wait, it is a dumb argument.
- Andre
Amit -- I offer you as Exhibit A for the problem which we have been discussing.
- Sean McBride
Did everyone see this today? "UN Says No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School (Time.com)" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailyne... "Investigation refutes claim by Israeli military that it was "returning fire" from Hamas militants when troops shelled an elementary school, killing 40 civilians."
- Sean McBride
Be my guest. :) A perpetual shrill shriek in the ears. If you want a really heavy dose of it, check out Atlas Shrugs http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
- Sean McBride
Sean, when you say UN, you mean Palestinian representatives of the UN, subtle difference. On the other side, Israeli intelligence knows exactly who was there. Contrary to your perception of Israel and Hamas own philosophy, no Israeli soldier shoots at a schools just for fun.
- Amit Morson
Amit -- don't you understand yet that Israeli attacks on civilians in Gaza are badly damaging Israel? How much do you want to bet that the Israeli government won't produce a shred of evidence to back up its claim that the school was inhabited by armed terrorists? And why are you harassing Americans about your ethnic and religious conflicts?
- Sean McBride
Mark - Pamela Geller (Atlas Shrugs) is the quintessence of everything that has gone wrong with Israel. She is quite a phenomenon. Shriek doesn't begin to cover it.
- Sean McBride
Everyone understands attacks on civilians are badly damaging Israel, thats why the Israeli army tries to avoid it and Hamas militants carry human shields with them. And that proves my point exactly!
- Amit Morson
What are the world media saying about Israel's attack on an elementary school? Google News has it covered: http://news.google.com/news...
- Sean McBride
I'm being controversial here, but I know! <sarcasm>Let's send a load of US and British troops over there to die, and slowly watch the economy tank even more in the process, just like Iraq.</sarcasm> Sigh...
- Tyson Key
I predicted months ago on here on Friendfeed that Barack Obama would be totally distracted and consumed by the Mideast Horror Show from the first day he took office, and that he wouldn't be able to effectively focus on domestic economic issues and the American interest. I got that one right.
- Sean McBride
@Sean, Damaging? do you listen to yourself? As bad as it may sound, do you really think the world will remember any of those clashes in couple of months? are you familiar with the US image across the Arab world? Do you know how much hatred is been channeled towards American citizens and American establishments? Can you remember that only months ago American troops bombarded a wedding in Iraq, killing more than 70 innocent Iraqis? Trust me, no one cares, this is just a piousness.
- Nir Ben Yona
Nir - you are attacking an American, me, about your foreign ethnic and religious conflicts. Not smart.
- Sean McBride
How to follow the unfolding story about the Israeli bombing of a UN elementary school on Google News, with most recent stories first: http://news.google.com/news...
- Sean McBride
Mark, that's not a joke but the middle east was a testing ground for American and Russian weapon systems for years.
- Amit Morson
Sean, just because the media say it's true doesn't make it so. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? You do realize that 90% of the reporters in Gaza are Palestinians. And that's exactly that kind of coverage you get as a result.
- Amit Morson
Amit - I have to be honest and say that I regard you as a lost cause. I am not even going to make an effort to cut through your mental fog. If you had been a Bernard Madoff investor, you would have bet the farm on his veracity. I trust the world media much more than I trust the Israeli government on matters of fact and truth concerning Israel.
- Sean McBride
Mark V - not sure if you were requesting a cite from me about my prediction that Obama would be consumed by Mideast politics from his first day in office. I began to focus on the Obama/AIPAC connection back in June http://friendfeed.com/search... My predictions are scattered among the comments.
- Sean McBride
Sean, why do you acknowledge that Palestinians' have the right to define themselves as a nation, but not Jews?
- Michael Markman
Michael -- I never said that. In fact, I would prefer to see an American-style one-state solution in the region, with ethnicity and religion wrung out of its Constitution and Jews and Palestinians sharing power on an equal footing. But what do you make of the David Ben-Gurion quote above?
- Sean McBride
@Sean i can say the same things vice versa (attacking me). If you really believe the media than 1) http://bit.ly/OrSL 2) http://bit.ly/159UZ (taken in 07 and exemplify the Hamas launching from the same perimeter).
- Nir Ben Yona
Nir -- am I bugging you about MY ethnic and religious issues? Attacking you about them? I am not. To do so would be rude, uncivil and antisocial. You are just not getting it.
- Sean McBride
I think if I had grown up with my basic rights constantly annihilated, seeing my parents humiliated and in fear, knowing if have no prospects for decent development, that soldiers (or settlers) could come trash my place any day for nothing I have done, I would be angry. And if i had grown up in the fear of rockets or some crazy person blowing up the local marketplace or a bar, for nothing I have personally done, I would be angry too. But repeating the pattern is not the solution.
- Iphigenie
Actually, it looks like Obama is going to be consumed by Israel's problems *before* his first day in office. I doubt that he will ever again have an opportunity to come up for air or to get focused on America's economic crisis. Apart from the Gaza mess, AIPAC has big plans to use Obama as a tool to attack Iran. Obama will have to go along or else.
- Sean McBride
Sean, I dont think that is a likely scenario. I think the moderates will win this one out
- Iphigenie
@Sean: aight !
- Nir Ben Yona
Joelle -- "moderates" like Rahm Emanuel, who attacked the Bush administration from the right for being too soft on terrorism? Moderates like Hillary Clinton, who raised the prospect of "totally obliterating" Iran? Obama will not be able to stand up to pressure coming from AIPAC.
- Sean McBride
Mark V -- they will need another major terrorist attack to push the Mideast wars to the next level, and no doubt it will occur. Possibly even the nuclear attack which Ehud Barak described in detail recently.
- Sean McBride
Mark -- Barak even described the exact methods that would be used for the attack. :) "Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak says Iran would attack the United States if it acquired 'even a primitive nuclear weapon.' He said if Iran 'built even a primitive nuclear weapon like the type that destroyed Hiroshima, Iran would not hesitate to load it on a ship, arm it with a detonator operated by GPS and sail it into a vital port on the east coast of North America.'"
- Sean McBride
i think i'm out of my depth in this conversation now...
- Iphigenie
Sure we are... Essentially everything north of Boston was Canada (england) at one time... Texas was Mexico... Alaska was Russia... And frankly it all really belonged to the American Indian. So if you get knifed by an American Indian I guess you had it coming... you should say you are sorry.
- Brian Roy
Dave - There is an enormous amount of non-sense on BOTH sides of this. I'm anti-non-sense. So I guess that makes me anti-Israel and anti-hamas. What I don't understand is when people become unbalanced and condem one and not the other. There are no "good actors" here.
- Brian Roy
All above occurring on the Promised Land. Hell on Earth.
- Mark Edmondson
@Nir and all pro-Israeli dudes: Why won't anybody respond to the Ben-Gurion quote Sean quoted? Is that too inconvenient to respond?
- Ashwin Bharambe
You know, I have brought up the David Ben-Gurion quote quite a few times now, and haven't received a single response from pro-Israel activists. Not one. They keep trying to pretend that the quote doesn't exist. (There is much more Ben-Gurion material on this subject which I am prepared to discuss.)
- Sean McBride
I have a friend that lives in Israel, his family is an arabic christian one and the horror stories of terror they have to live with at the hands of IDF and Israeli police is disgusting. On his fathers birthday police broke through the doors and kidnapped his dad. No reason, no recourse. They released him several days later after beating him up. This happens across Israel to non-Jewish citizens yet it never makes the news. There is *so much* going on that fuels this hatred in perpetuality.
- alphaxion
alphaxion, I don't know who your friend is or were he lives in Israel, but a police officer who will break into someone home without a court order will face disciplinary action just as in any other lawful country.
- Amit Morson
Sean McBride is exactly right - Israel is founded on concepts of ethno-religious discrimination and keeps those aspects of it's state organisation *to this day*. Settlers in the West Bank steal Palestinian land as a matter of course. But we are asked to compartmentalise these problems ("we don't occupy Gaza"), and it is a false dichotomy. Israel is reaping the seeds of 60 years of victimisation of Palestinians, and asks us to believe the cure is even more victimisation.
- Scot Mcphee
@Ashwin: The respond is very simple - back at the time (when he said that) the Arab world was unified under the decision to wipe out Israel from the map. The religious leadership in those countries was willing to send their armies and fight the small country that has managed to build the Zionist Vision in the Middle East against all odds. Ben Gurion, wisely understood that any Arab leader that will make peace with Israel would be considered as a dead man...
- Nir Ben Yona
...and will carry a death penalty along with a collective boycott from the Arab world. Therefor, Ben Gurion, literally said he didn't want to be considered a DEAD MAN. Needless to say, the situation is totally different nowadays, as the vast majority of the Arab countries seek for any sort of relations with Israel (official or unofficial) and under the table ask for an Israeli umbrella (sort of protection) from the Axis Of Evil (AKA:Iran), in regard to the Sunni-Shia wars.
- Nir Ben Yona
As for @alphaxion, gimme a break will you, stop bringing partial stories just because it's trendy to attack Israel. You don't really understand what's happening here and clearly you would prefer leaving in here rather than in Iran. As for @Scot Mcphee, a reminder, Australia is an immigrants country that supports Israel. Wondering which lands you personally had stolen from the Aborigines who demand their territories back for decades. when you speak about a rip off you don't come with clean hands.
- Nir Ben Yona
Again, there is a key pattern to observe here: pro-Israel activists and militants tend to be aggressive, bullying and obnoxious towards anyone they disagree with (this behavioral pattern is especially strong among neoconservatives). One suspects that they they believe that all Americans, Europeans, Australians, etc. are untermenschen, to be treated, like Palestinians, with a brutal and high hand. One would expect no less from messianic ethno-religious nationalists. it's easy to see where this is going.
- Sean McBride
I'm just saying what he told me. Also, here in the UK we have plenty of police raids under abuses of terror laws in order to harass people. Happened recently to one of our politicians. And I'm not "joining in on Israel bashing", I have commented for the past decade about this very thing - I do not dispute that Israel faces some incredibly nasty attacks, but I refuse to ignore the nasty crap Israel itself gets upto. I have said time and time again that BOTH sides are the problem! Sadly the citizens suffer.
- alphaxion
This is what I am talking about, concerning bullying aggression, from Youtube: "British film crew threatened by jewish settler in Hebron" http://www.youtube.com/watch... For how much longer will the Western world go on supporting this enterprise? Oh: and check out the insane and violent interactions in the comments section -- the fruits of ethnic and religious nationalism.
- Sean McBride
Israel shouldn't have an army.
- Meryn Stol
Nir didn't come close to answering the content of the Ben-Gurion quote.
- Sean McBride
@Sean, clearly you had a bottle of vodka before your last comment. Next thing, you'd probably ask to deprive our rights to respond to any attacks from ignorant people who feel they will advance their social affairs by officially bashing Israel (Do I need to feel apologetic? NOT) @alphaxion. Thank You !
- Nir Ben Yona
Sean, you keep on getting the same observation wrong, the nutjobs settlers in Hebron are not Israel, they are not even the moderate Israeli right. They are their own breed of messianic lunatics. Many of them, by the way, are Jewish immigrants from the US.
- Amit Morson
Nir - you still don't get it. Attacking ethnic and religious outsiders in a fury about your ethnic and religious problems and conflicts is a losing game. The more you attack, the more you lose and the deeper the hole in which your dig yourself and your cause. Do you really understand so little about human behavior?
- Sean McBride
Grief and Rage at Stricken Gaza School - NYTimes.com http://www.nytimes.com/2009... This operation continues to turn into one of the worst public relations disasters in Israeli history.
- Sean McBride
Amit Morson - the settlers have been given full support by the Israeli government, and especially under Labor. The Israeli government is responsible for all their actions. And the rhetorical style of this particular obnoxious religious fanatic is indistinguishable from that of many pro-Israel militants on the net. Many American leaders have many stories to tell of suffering similar assaults, repeatedly.
- Sean McBride
Sean, wrong again, the Israeli government has been trying to deal with the Hebron nutjobs for years, but "unfortunately" Israel is a lawful country and even the government can't do anything it wants.
- Amit Morson
Sean, try to get over your bias, you might learn some great things.
- Amit Morson
World opinion on the blogosphere is running overwhelmingly against Israel in the current crisis. Check it out for yourself: http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsea...
- Sean McBride
Amit -- your insulting and poorly informed posts aren't doing much to help Israel. It is really quite amazing that you would even get into these self-destructive discussions with Americans. If Israel can't deal with ideological settlers as effectively as America deals with neo-Nazis and KKK members, there is something seriously wrong with the Israeli government and the nation of Israel.
- Sean McBride
@Sean honestly, you're making me laugh. First, i had a feeling you are a member of the KKK (and i'm not sure i'm wrong). Second, if you think this war is a PR thing you clearly have no idea and my advice for you would be to get down to earth from Mars. Third, don't lecture us about attacking ethnic outsiders since you're doing exactly the same thing. Fourth, you dig yourself a hole, last time i've checked i'm on a flat and stable ground.
- Nir Ben Yona
Sean, unfortunately your bias doesn't let you learn the real facts. Things that do not fit to your perception of the truth turn into "poorly informed". You should open your eyes and get over your bias.
- Amit Morson
Fifth, do i need a permission to go out and attack your very own interests? ABSOLUTELY NOT. After all, we prevent those terrorists from getting into US doors. Six, wondering what would have happened if Putin was here instead of Israel. Obviously he was flattening the entire area like he did in Chechnya and you'd probably praising him. Seven, do you really think the blogsphere can stop us from protecting ourselves? there are 1 billion Muslims and only 7M in Israel...statistically they have the advantage.
- Nir Ben Yona
Saying Israel supports and encourages radical settlers in the west bank, is like saying the federal government supports Nazi organizations by the mere fact that they exist within it's borders and rally in American town. Do you comprehend the absurdity?
- Amit Morson
And by the way, why does it matter if the discussions are made with Americans, French, Thai, Brazilian or whatever. Why do you think there is a difference?
- Amit Morson
Who is subsidizing the settlements, Amit?
- Sean McBride
Nir Ben Yona, your attempt to equate the situation in Israel and Palestine and dismiss it by airly waving at the genocide of Australian Aborigines is pure sophistry. I am not defending those crimes. And whatever policy failings that Australia currently has towards Aborigines, they are nowhere near the scale of the ongoing occupation and confiscation of Palestinian lands that exists inside Israel *today*. And Australian law fully recognises native title to land.
- Scot Mcphee
Amit -- you are attacking ethnic, religious and national outsiders in an obnoxious and poorly informed way about YOUR ethnic, religious and foreign nationalist agenda. If you don't understand why that kind of behavior is alienating and self-destructive, you are missing a key organ of human cognition.
- Sean McBride
Rich American neo-cons
- Amit Morson
If Canada was shelling Seattle, we would be getting another new quarter in 2009 because Canada would become the 51st state
- Morgan
Israeli settlements are being developed as a matter of official Israeli policy. Much of the settlement activity is being funded by wealthy American neoconservatives, like Irving Moskowitz, but the Israeli government is responsible for the policy. And the Israeli government is also responsible for the fanatics and extremists who inhabit those settlements -- including the delightful specimen in the Youtube video.
- Sean McBride
Sean, wrong again. Other than development of new neighborhoods within Jerusalem, which might be controversial, depending on your point of view. A new settlement wasn't built in the west bank for years. Any new settlements are illegal and have been or deemed to be destroyed.
- Amit Morson
@Scot Mcphee, aight, but don't forget the Aborigines are less violent comparing to the Palestinians. After all, The Hamas is an official UN-declared terror organization and as far as i know the Australian natives have no militant groups. @Morgan, Damn right.
- Nir Ben Yona
"Children make up third of Gaza dead: medics - Yahoo! News" http://news.yahoo.com/s... These are the appalling policies and activities which the pro-Israel contingent in this thread is defending, and for which it will be held fully responsible by the world. There are consequences to getting on the wrong side of historical trends of this magnitude.
- Sean McBride
Nir Ben Yona, you haven't addressed the issue of Israel's discriminatory nature, at it's very core. Yes, Hamas are bad. But that doesn't justify Israels treatment of the *Palestinians* - treatment that pre-dates the formation of Hamas, and maybe, just maybe, contains some responsibility for it. A reality you've consistently shown unwillingly to confront or even admit. Meanwhile all you have is hair-splitting, and ad-hominem and logical fallacies of various kinds. I will not respond further. Good day to you.
- Scot Mcphee
And this is why there are civilian Palestinian casualties http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Amit Morson
Does anyone know of any online grassroots organizing to protest against this?
- Meryn Stol
Meryn, If Israel didn't have an army all Jews there will be slaughtered. Is that what you want to happen?
- Amit Morson
Gee, reading all these comments almost gives one the impression that this is a highly-complex, emotionally charged issue which does not have any single answer, let alone one *correct* answer. Or maybe I'm just crazy.
- Bill Jackson
from twhirl
I've got a single and simple answer: ethnic and religious nationalism is a losing proposition in the contemporary world.
- Sean McBride
Bill, you're just crazy.
- Amit Morson
Amit, no, the international community would defend the Jewish people OBVIOUSLY. Look at what America did with Saddam Hussein without much ground to stand on, now think what happens if an actual army would touch the Jews.
- Meryn Stol
@Sean, wrt "there are consequences", no there won't be coz the bully wins as it has continued to for the past 60 years. In fact, in time, the bully will not even be known as the bully but will be painted as the victim. This latter part (all the self-righteousness) is what's most unsettling.
- Ashwin Bharambe
Meryn, you do realize that what you say is totally ridiculous..
- Amit Morson
I personally consider the Israeli government to be childish. Therefore they shouldn't be allowed to have an army. Certainly not nukes. I'd say even Bush is more sensible.
- Meryn Stol
Ashwin - white South Africa should be an object lesson for how these kinds of projects turn out. Watch and see.
- Sean McBride
I have nothing against Jews or the people living in Israel btw. It's just the government (and those supporting these insane actions) that I'm against.
- Meryn Stol
Meryn -- many Jews around the world are appalled by these developments, and the Jewish tradition as a whole is much bigger and wiser than any Israeli government. Always try to keep that it mind.
- Sean McBride
@Sean even if you might suffer from megalomania, you don't represent the WORLD, but your very own personal opinion, so no one buys your pretentious ideas. Once you deal with Putin's actions in Chechnya and Georgia i will treat you as a non biased figure. @Scot, every country has its own discriminatory nature, I have never claimed we are clean concerning this matter, but again, a government is one of those systematic forms. Most of the Arab world have monarchies. I prefer democracies.
- Nir Ben Yona
Sean, I know. I was trying to make that distinction. I'm against the current government (or rather this specific behavior) and its direct supporters (or rather, their support).
- Meryn Stol
Meryn -- don't worry; your basic decency comes through clearly in your posts. All I feel coming through the posts of some others here is raw hatred, motivated by ethnic extremism.
- Sean McBride
Ashwin, now who is the bully here, the 7 armies who attacked the army-less Israel on the day it declared independence? or the the ones who massed troops on all three fronts in 1967, or the ones who attacked Israel by surprised on the holiest day to Jewish people, or maybe the ones who blow up buses and shoot rockets at cities?
- Amit Morson
My prediction: Israel will be the first country who will be forced to do away its nukes. They're not nuke-worthy.
- Meryn Stol
Amit - how would Americans react if Zionists from Russia and Europe had tried to build a state by force and terrorism anywhere on American territory? Go back and read the David Ben-Gurion quote above: he understood clearly what motivated opposition to the creation of Israel on Arab lands.
- Sean McBride
The answer to the preceding question is, of course, that Americans would have responded with massive and crushing force.
- Sean McBride
The big difference is that Israel was never a Palestinian territory. So the analogy falls apart right here. Israel was proclaimed in the void created by the disintegration of imperial powers after WW2.
- Amit Morson
Amit - you are indulging in doubletalk. Zionists exerted enormous pressure on the West to go along with its program. The fact remains that Israel was imposed by force and terrorism on the native inhabitants on this territory. Go back and read the David Ben-Gurion quote, and make an effort to understand what he is saying.
- Sean McBride
You know... In some way... quite strange, this conflict is still Hitler's legacy. Amazing. We wouldn't have this situation without Hitler.
- Meryn Stol
I am going to repost the quote: David Ben-Gurion: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
- Sean McBride
I think Hitler's legacy is the reason the West is still defending Israel. That is, the people in charge.
- Meryn Stol
No one is denying the struggle over the land. The fact that Israel won, doesn't make the losing side right. And may I remind you that the division plan offered prior to the establishment of Israel was accepted by the Jewish inhabitants and rejected by the Arabs. If the Arabs would have agreed to the division plan non of this vicious cycle of violence would have never occurred.
- Amit Morson
=> The fact that Israel won, doesn't make the winning side right.
- Meryn Stol
Would Americans accept a similar division plan on their territory? Would Russians? Europeans? Anyone? Ben-Gurion certainly understood why the plan was unacceptable to those whose land was being invaded and carved up by outsiders.
- Sean McBride
Maybe so, but the fact is, that all of Israel governments all along it's history were willing to negotiate peace with all it's neighbors. As we all know, those negotiations started only after it's neighbors realized they can't win by war. Unfortunately many lives were lost along the way.
- Amit Morson
But we keep missing the bigger picture: how is it in the American interest to become bogged down in foreign ethnic and religious wars of any variety? How is doing so consonant with basic American values, which prize treating all ethnic and religious groups with equal respect and status? America is the exact opposite of an ethnic or religious ghetto, thank God.
- Sean McBride
Sean, you make the same mistake again, Americans, Russian and Europeans are nations, Palestinians were never nation. Not before and not after the establishment of Israel, The term "Palestinian people" was coined by the Arab league after the 1967 war.
- Amit Morson
Amit - David Ben-Gurion cuts through your sophistical meanderings like a knife through warm butter.
- Sean McBride
You just witnessed the second of only two occurrences of "sophistical meanderings" on all of Google. :) http://books.google.com/books... (Don't ask me why this kind of language behavior fascinates me; it just does.)
- Sean McBride
Sean, you sound like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad . Your provocations will always stay on the paper, Israel is a fact whether you or some other radical extremest like it or not. Do you have problems, you think you can remove me from my land, come and get me. You should start researching the ways other countries were established; in all cases wars and bloodshed were primary ingredient. Reality fractures your false theories one by one, since the Arab world eloquently expressed its desire to make a valid peace with us
- Nir Ben Yona
I'm amazed at your ability as an American citizen to be outraged when it's not about yourself. Israel has caused 300-500 civilian deaths as of my comment here. In a few years of war the US has caused untold (some say 1 000 000) civilian deaths in Iraq. Meaning, you should focus in fighting your authorities.
- Nir Ben Yona
How many Americans and Europeans at this point have been attacked, abused, bullied and threatened by pro-Israel activists and militants who couldn't care less about American and European interests and values?
- Sean McBride
And vice versa.
- Nir Ben Yona
Nir -- you've missed the point. Most Americans and Europeans don't want to become involved in Mideast ethnic and religious holy wars. They are quite willing to leave you to your own devices. Please leave us alone. This is your game, not ours.
- Sean McBride
Are Nir and Amit paying close attention to the flow of evolving world opinion on Israel's Gaza operation? Google News search: Gaza http://news.google.com/news... Do they know how to do content analysis? Do they understand what is happening?
- Sean McBride
Sean, If this is your attitude than stop interfering. Mind your own business ;-)
- Amit Morson
All those media sources are Palestinians living in Gaza, can you imagine what Hamas operatives will do to them if they don't paint this distorted image of events?
- Amit Morson
The very same neoconservatives who got the Iraq War disastrously wrong, the Lebanon War disastrously wrong, and the Georgian War against Russia disastrously wrong now think that they are going to get the Israeli war against Gaza right. Consider the odds.
- Sean McBride
@Sean you are a fascist - No Doubt - You seem to be involved all over the place, spreading lies and defamation. Once your family will be held in a life danger and terrorists will blow your children mind you'll have a standing, so far you don't, Clearly you're motivated from hatred. It won't help you, we were here before you were born and we'll be here long after.
- Nir Ben Yona
More hate-filled attacks from pro-Israel activists and militants against Americans who are worried about the trillion-dollar costs of the never-ending ethnic and religious holy wars in the Mideast. When you read their posts, you begin to understand why the wars will never end and why they are eternally self-perpetuating. Nir smears me as a "fascist," despite the fact that I have...
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- Sean McBride
Nir -- are you an American citizen? Of what nation are you a citizen? You have not mentioned the American interest once in any of your posts. One only sees concern about the Israeli interest in your posts, most of which seem to be bitter personal attacks on others.
- Sean McBride
Sean, ooh I see, you're worried about the cost.
- Amit Morson
Amit -- so you think it is a big joke that Americans are dumping trillions of dollars down the hole in the pursuit of failed policies in the Mideast? Are you an American, by the way? There are other concerns: America's reputation has been badly damaged around the world in recent years, and the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights have been severely undermined as the result of getting involved in the never-ending Mideast Horror Show.
- Sean McBride
The fact that even republicans turned a cold shoulder to Bush says it all really. I hope you are not linking the Bush family personal vendetta against Saddam to Israel. Soon you'll say it;s Israel fault too.
- Amit Morson
Amit -- the neoconservative wing of the Israel lobby was the chief ringleader of the Iraq War. Any number of reputable books have dissected the methods they used to push the United States into going to war against Iraq. Most of the key cheerleaders of the war in the mainstream media, and especially on the oped pages of the New York Times and Washington Post, fit your political profile.
- Sean McBride
Amit - of what nation (or nations) are you a citizen?
- Sean McBride
Oh man, whats next? Let me guess, ... the 9/11 attack was staged by CIA agents, ohh, and the Madrid and London bombings too....
- Amit Morson
Why my citizenship matter? Would it make a difference if I'm a resident of Israel, Denmark, US, Australia or any other country?
- Amit Morson
When I, as an American, am being attacked by fanatical partisans over Mideast politics, I am curious to know the motives of the attackers. What is your citizenship, Amit? Since this is an ethnic and religious conflict, what is your ethnicity and religion? What are your personal stakes in the conflict?
- Sean McBride
Can you point me to any reputable books on the origins of the Iraq War which don't put the primary blame on neoconservatives? Try Googling {clean break israel} to get into the heart of the discussion.
- Sean McBride
You think I'm a "fanatical partisan"? That's pretty insulting. What we (me and you) have here is a clash of point of views and not an ethnic and religious conflict. I hope you understand that, and just getting carried away in the heat of the argument. I'd bet that on most other subjects we'll find ourselves on the same side.
- Amit Morson
You come across to me as someone who is emotionally excited about the Mideast Horror Show to an conspicuous degree. What's your stake in the mess? Ethnicity? Religion? Are you an Israeli citizen? You haven't mentioned the American interest once in your posts so far -- I doubt that you are an American citizen. In fact, you ridiculed American concerns about losing several trillions of dollars in Iraq.
- Sean McBride
Only because I find your point of view very disturbing. You are basically undermining Israel's right to exist and I that's something I'd expect mostly from antisemitic people.
- Amit Morson
As for the Iraq war, I didn't think it was necessary back then and as we all know it turned out to be a colossal mistake. Actually, back in the days I thought Bush should use the Iraq-Iran conflict to bring Iraq closer to the west.
- Amit Morson
Amit -- what you find disturbing is discussion by Americans about the American interest in foreign policy and Mideast politics. Your point of view of 100% Israel-centric (I am guessing that you are an Israeli, not an American citizen), and your gut instinct is to smear anyone as an antisemite who puts his or her own interest above those of Israelis. That won't fly. You are going to piss...
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- Sean McBride
In all of this discussion I've said nothing about American interests, only about the participants point of view. You either didn't understand what I've said or you confuse me with someone else.
- Amit Morson
You've said nothing about American interests because obviously you couldn't care less about them. You only care about the Israeli interest. We can safely draw the obvious conclusions, I think.
- Sean McBride
You're so engulfed by it you miss the obvious. I didn't say anything about American interests, because it has nothing to do with the current Hamas-Israel conflict.
- Amit Morson
What Israelis and many Americans have failed to understand that the children you are killing are just like your children. http://english.aljazeera.net/focus...
Chris Zlatis, Larry Lewis, Chris Nixon and 10 other people liked this
You mean the children that were getting killed by Hamas rockets? We need to stop focusing on the conflict and start focusing on the solution...
- Brian Roy
Almost nobody justify killing children, but the mankind with zillion of years of big wars is very biased to some events completely ignoring others. For Hamas dead children is part of their fight, they don't care.
- Sebastian Wain
dave, let me ask you a question: if your house was bombed by a rocket, and that your neighbours let you know very clearly they won t stop, and want to exterminate your familiy, what would you do? Stay home and eat popcorn?
- Ouriel Ohayon
I'd call 911 and get the fuck out of there asap.
- Dave Winer
I'd be honest that I didn't own the land and come to a real compromise
- Chris Saad
@ouriel. A better analogy might be: I stole my neighbours house, they are now living in what was their garden, and they are lobbing rockets in my general direction. I'd give them their house back and apologise for the trouble caused, but that's just me.
- Paul Grav
Paul, what land Israel stole exactly?
- Amit Morson
Dave, no one in Israel thinks the Palestinians children are any different than anyone else's, actually some of them are treated in Israeli hospitals.
- Amit Morson
And you fail again to offer an alternative solution to the eight year bombardment of Israeli cities.
- Amit Morson
@Paul - go to the library and start reading, clearly you have no idea about the routs of the conflict or any clue about the region's history. @Dave - our 911 is the IDF. PS: the Hamas was officially declared as a terror organization by the UN.
- Nir Ben Yona
@PaulGrav @ChrisSaad : Do you really think the middle east conflict is about land? do you think people putting their population in risk hiding weapons inside their homes want only land?
- Sebastian Wain
Like all conflicts, they start about land or property and they become about hate and revenge - u can't try to solve the issue without being honest about the root cause though.
- Chris Saad
Come on. You can't tell me with a straight face that Israel isn't occupying and hasn't occupied territories that doesn't and didn't belong to them. Just need to look at a map.
- Paul Grav
dave paul and chris, buy yourself urgently a history book....Israel has a country won over several wars and recognized by the UN. is is a F...joke or just negationism?
- Ouriel Ohayon
If you ask radicals from both sides then the entire region belongs to them. I don't want to get into the "Promised Land" story, but the Judaism was established more than 2000 years before the Islam and Eretz Cnaan (Israel nowadays) was settled with Jews before Jesus (a former Jew) was born, so if you really want to get into it hop on.
- Nir Ben Yona
Sofia: BINGO !
- Nir Ben Yona
@ouriel. UN resolutions 242 and 383 are still outstanding. You think it's morally correct to 'win' a country by waging war? For me, killing and stealing is wrong, I don't care if your a person, corporation or country.
- Paul Grav
@Sofia: Really, have you ever learned the routs of the Hamas or studied their treaty? These are fanatic religious militants who vow to wipe out Israel from the map. They have brought the Islamic rules to the region and act according to the Fatwa, exactly as the Taliban is acting in Afghanistan. Claiming that Gaza is a secular area would be a complete ignorance.
- Nir Ben Yona
@Paul: It's interesting that you haven't mentioned Australia "stealing" lands from the Aborigines or the US "stealing" lands from the Indians. You're very picky don't you think so?
- Nir Ben Yona
@Paul: Nir gave you a good answer. All democracies have been built on war. you don t ask the US to give back the land to Indians, or France to Rome...this is is history
- Ouriel Ohayon
@Nir Ben Yona. So you think that that justifies Israels actions?
- Paul Grav
about land? they've got their land, it's all theirs, Israel pulled out, too bad they're now ruled by a group of terrorists who are mad and blood thirsty killers
- Donovan Slennon
@Ouriel it's obviously not history to the people still living in refugee camps firing rockets. Especially since Israel is supported by the US and is affecting WORLD politics
- Chris Saad
@ouriel. And if you win territory through war, then I don't see how you can be surprised that some people feel the need to send rockets to you. Surely you can't therefore begrudge the Palestinians or Syrians at least attempting to 'win' back their land.
- Paul Grav
Paul, which part of Gaza are they trying to win back?
- Amit Morson
This conversation has exhausted itself. Acting like a victim when you have clearly been the aggressor is just silly. Be honest about what's going on because everyone knows already. If Israel stands by its actions that's fine. Acting like Israel didn't do anything wrong is just dishonest though.
- Chris Saad
Israel has given palestinians several opportunities to have their own country which was sent to the bin several times. This is history. read it
- Ouriel Ohayon
@Donavon. Both the US and the UN consider the Gaza strip and the West Bank as occupied territories.
- Paul Grav
@Paul I can argue about justifications all day long. Instead, I will ask why in heaven the Palestinians haven't tried to develop their given-land 3 years ago. Instead of building hotels along the amazing beaches (with Saudi money) and bring prosperity and create jobs, they've decided to buy more missiles and weaponry - that's silly. @Sofia: I totally agree with the second part of your answer.
- Nir Ben Yona
@Paul maybe because there is a bunch of fanatics that has unrealistic desire to exterminate their neighbours and that want everything or nothing
- Ouriel Ohayon
I love how we have gone from 'Israel did nothing' to 'Lots of countries have been won by war' to 'They should put up with what they have left'
- Chris Saad
Chris have you ever read a book of history or is this just tech that interest you? pretty disappointed by the way this is analyzed
- Ouriel Ohayon
It's not just land, it's about resources (primarily water) and demographics too. The Arab populations grow at a rate that far, far outstrips the Israeli birth rates. Which means, should a 2 state system allowing freedom of travel and settling between the two states, the Israelies would quickly become minorities within their own land and seats of power would shift as a result. Imagine if Christian populations in the US were to become a minority and it was non-christians sitting in the senate, dictating laws.
- alphaxion
Read, Watched, Listened and my g/parents lived it. Israel was created after WW2 in place of a Palestine. The people who were displaced are not happy about that. Some of them have become extreme (like Hamas) after years of oppression despite UN resolutions etc. You can't invalidate the issue because of some extreme elements. This is just fact. Let's just be honest about the basic facts....
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- Chris Saad
Chris, obviously your knowledge of the region and it's history is lacking, Israel wasn't created in place of Palestine, because Palestine never existed. Palestine was conceived by the Arab League after the 1967 war.
- Amit Morson
Israel never occupied Palestinian territories, it occupied the Sinai and Gaza from Egypt (Egypt didn't want Gaza back, no wonder), and the west bank from Jordan. Jordan gave up the west bank but never official handed it over to any Palestinian body. It is Israel who is handing the west bank to Palestinians.
- Amit Morson
@Chris: nowadays Palestinians have no relation to early Philistine people. Jews used to settle in this land long before 1948. Amit is right, Palestine is a creation of the Arab League after the 67' war, when no Arab country wanted to receive the refugees. We're not invalidating the issue since the vast majority of Israelis want a 2 state solution. PS: turns out "bottle rockets" and "suicide bombers" are mass destruction weapons.
- Nir Ben Yona
@Nir. There's not much point in building stuff if it will just get bombed.
- Paul Grav
@Paul, No missiles = No bombs.
- Nir Ben Yona
Amit - the land where Israel now exists was called the British Mandate of Palestine and was formally approved by the League of Nations in 1922. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire. This map from 1924 from the British War Office clearly calls is "Palestine". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Cameron Reilly
@Nir. Give them a state and maybe there'd be no missiles. Unless the Palestinian population is in decline and unless they get their own state, then I don't see a way out of this mess.
- Paul Grav
@nir: and those who call themselves English are of no relation to the people who called themselves Britons.. yet because of centuries of inhabitation of this land we do tend to believe that this land is ours. It's the same thing, unless you want the African tribes to turn up and claim the whole of the middle east as theirs, since they were the first to spread out into that area from our species cradle after all. See how silly "this land is ours" arguments are?
- alphaxion
Cameron, please open a history book, Palestine is a distortion of the name Philistine, which are the people who lived in that area 4000 years before, and are not related to any of the Arab tribes. BTW they lived at the area that is approximately what now is the Gaza strip and not all of Israel.
- Amit Morson
Amit - according to the International Court of Justice and the UN charter any seizing of territory as a result of war is illegal. They explicitly deem Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to be Occupied Palestinian Territories. http://bit.ly/h4CX
- Boris Gordon
Anyway, interesting discussion, beats talking about twitter.
- Paul Grav
I meant to say 4th Geneva Convention which Israel ratified in 1951, not UN charter. Sorry.
- Boris Gordon
@Paul: i don't see a way out either. "give" them is too simple solution - Regretfully the path to a state is full of obstacles. There are too many disputes to end this eternal conflict (AKA Jerusalem). @alphaxion: in other words, 30M Muslims in Europe can now claim for landlordship, as one of them stated that the land belongs to god and not to any of the European governments.
- Nir Ben Yona
if it "belonged to god" then no-one can claim landlordship over any land.. and no amount of "and was given to his followers" because there is no original contract of this in gods own writing, merely the words of humans claiming that "god is speaking through them".. which should not stand up in a court of law due to how falsifiable the source is.
- alphaxion
That's right, that is why any official government cannot claim for landlordship in their view. Those religious radicals who think they have a franchise to "credo" and "faith" don't even recognize any state jurisdiction. They act according to the jungle rules but using democracy for their needs.
- Nir Ben Yona
Amit - where the name comes from is irrelevant. You claimed "Palestine never existed" and that's incorrect. As is your suggestion that the Arabs only lived in Gaza. They were spread all over, Jerusalem, Nablus, Hebron, Jaffa, etc.
- Cameron Reilly
@Cameron there's really no point - if we can't be honest about the basic facts then you can't have a proper debate much less forward movement.
- Chris Saad
you've also just described the current form of corporatism that exists in the US and Europe.. companies are above the law and use democracy as a way of placating the masses they exploit. It's merely about making money. But then, who says that government is the right system? It has been shown to be corrupt at all levels, never serves the people only its own interests. Government is just a system to provide services and try to create a point of authority to protect the weak. Is it doing that? Many places not.
- alphaxion
@Chris debates like this are positive. They get the facts out to the observers. This current conflict is an opportunity to help people understand the true history of the region and to expose the lies and hypocrisy of the Israel/US/UK alliance.
- Cameron Reilly
@alphaxion:interesting point !
- Nir Ben Yona
I was watching "long way down" tonight. Discussing land mines, Charlie said "it's always the children that get hurt in war".
- Will Higgins™
I am sorry but to say no normal person would argue for Israel's existence is wrong. They have just as much right to exist as we do. Where do you come off making a statement like that?
- Ryan Ellerbe
Cameron, Chris, please refer me to a single point in worlds history when a Palestinian state or any independent entity existed.
- Amit Morson
@Amit - The Palestine Mandate, approved by the League of Nations, 1922, after the Ottoman Empire was split up by the Treaty of Sèvres.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Cameron Reilly
I suggest reading today "Hamas executes dozens of Gazans suspected of collaborating with Israel" (without trial) by Amira Hass : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen...
- Sebastian Wain
If you think that there is an argument you could make that would justify killing children, because there is no such argument.
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Last I checked, Israel was not sniping children or purposely killing them in any other way; they're not even accepted collateral in the planned attacks. They've just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. That aside, you'll have to define children, because age alone is not a deciding factor.
- xero
half of the population of gaza is children...
- andrew
It is never that black and white of a situation. If you're to the point that you must kill someone else then you've already made a utilitarian decision. With that same line of logic you must then decide how many others must be injured or killed for the good of the many. The line is arbitrary. One could argue that every life is sacred, even those of combatants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- xero
Then there is the reasoning, that any non-combatant surrounding those targets has a high probability of aiding the combatants, which means they are no longer "innocent". Though that gets into a situation where much proof is needed to be considered ethical.
- xero
David - I'm fine with that. At a venture to guess if now is one of those times in Gaza, my gut would say no. I think Israel had enough infantry with few enough targets that they could have used precise, semi-covert, simultaneous strikes to take out every inner-city/sensitive target to date. This would have endangered far less civilians.
- xero
I don't think they really care.
- Aaron deMello
yes, aaron, for over 60 years they have clearly demonstrated their utter contempt for people other than their own #gaza
- ernie yacub
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