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Graham Steel › Likes
MT @GeraldineCS John Vaughn, Assoc of Am Unis - Primary role of scholarly publishers should be public service, not revenue generation #OA
Graham Steel and Christina Pikas liked this
Lance Armstrong "covers" Radiohead's "Creep" via Ophah interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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jönαthaη, Graham Steel and Yo. Shark Dog. liked this
Why people do not comment online articles? What is wrong with the online commenting system? I think this is one of the central issues in Science 2.0. Here is the test case, which is very demonstrative: http://friendfeed.com/the-lif...
Noah Gray, Jordan M, NextBio and 29 other people liked this
Definitely a blog post in this but I would say the answer is simple - the commentary feeds off itself, you need a community in place for that to happen and there isn't any such community at the PLoS ONE site. The existing community provides people (obviously) but also context and a space which isn't empty. Comes back to the issue of modularity of contributions as well. But bottom line, the people are here (and probably elsewhere in coffee rooms etc) so the conversation happens here.
- Cameron Neylon
Exactly. The conversation will happen where the people are. It's up to the publishers to figure out how to harness those conversations. Given the API, and the activity here on FF, would be cool to pull those discussions into the article itself.
- Deepak Singh
If you study carefully the test case above, you will see that there are two characteristic features 1) It is easier to start a discussion where the people are (but for that it is enough just to send a link here, and discuss there), and 2) people obviously do not want to disclose their real names under critical comments. This suggests to me that the current PLoS commenting system is wrong in forcing people to register before the post, and not allowing anonymous comments.
- genereg
I think its been established pretty strongly now through things like OpenWetWare and other sites that completely anonymous commenting is probably not helpful or desirable in science. Those sites that strongly encourage or require the use of "real names" see little or no vandalism, and it could be argued, a more constructive approach to discussion. I admit to being conflicted about the...
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- Cameron Neylon
But the people here at FF, they _are_ very online persons. They know all details on how to comment and so on. Still, they choose not to comment under their real names, and are very upset when their critical comments appear to be linked to a wider online audience. Afterall, scientific reviews have _always_ been anonymous, and there is no reason why online reviews should not be anonymous...
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- genereg
How do you reach that assumption? I know the real names of pretty much all of them, and most of us have "handles" that are associated with names. Online anonymity is becoming a strict no-no pretty fast.
- Deepak Singh
That is why FF is NOT anonymous. But people who feel safe here (perhaps because it is not that easy to search, an so on) do not feel safe to expose their names on the _publicly_ available web site, where their comments will be associated with the article forewer
- genereg
"people obviously do not want to disclose their real names under critical comments" What's your evidence for this? Me? I am fine with making critical comments under my own name -- it's not as though I thought the FF thread was magically invisible to everyone but my BFFs. I'd prefer to word things a bit differently in direct comment to an author (specifically, I'd explain why the lack of...
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- Bill Hooker
I am still a little confused by how you can reach that conclusion on anonymous commenting. There seems to be no real evidence or suggestion for that. Yes there are people afraid of online commenting in general, but that's a general problem. Those people don't show up on Friendfeed either
- Deepak Singh
The test case above was at the FF. The people there are both _online_ people, and experts, and interested in commenting on that particular article. But they are still afraid to comment on public.
- genereg
@Bill, read the last comments in that thead by Ian York
- genereg
Ah, missed Ian's last couple of comments -- genereg, I think you're reaching if you are putting Ian's part in that thread forward as evidence for your claims about anonymity, too. I'm all for anonymity being available to those who want/need it, but I don't think it's any kind of answer to why article commenting hasn't taken off.
- Bill Hooker
Genereg, I think you are misintepreting Ian's comment (although I'm not sure and I have asked him on that thread). I think he is making a point about asking permission before re-publishing but he makes it very clear that there is nothing "wrong" with re-publishing just that doing it to (perhaps) make a point is a bit impolite.
- Cameron Neylon
In addition, I personally, would not comment that article at PLoS One under my real name. One of the reasons would be that I don't want my name to be associated with THAT article.
- genereg
In addition, I do know a number of articles which I would like to comment (and I am quite an _online_ person to figure out how to do this) but I don't comment just for the reason that it requires a registration
- genereg
I'd guess the difference is to a large extent due to the way PLoS One and FF are set up. PLoS One allows comments, FF is set up for commenting. FF has more comments, but they're also more ephemeral. Comments that are going to sit on my paper should be well thought of and not pesky one-liners. As such, maybe linking from the biophotonics paper to FF was a mistake. OTOH, I'd want all 'activity' somehow linked to my paper, but in a different way.
- Björn Brembs
"The test case above was at the FF. The people there are both _online_ people, and experts, and interested in commenting on that particular article. But they are still afraid to comment on public." ... I am not sure how that last conclusion was made. Pretty much all of us (there will always be exceptions) are more than happy to be public with disagreements regardless of forum. It's just that much more convenient to discuss here
- Deepak Singh
@Deepak, Pretty much all of us would be happy to be on public with positive or neutral comments, but honest comments on the artticles are in most cases critical... That is why the standard way the peer-review goes is through anonymous systems.
- genereg
Key is --- little comments on PLOS, but many here on FF ... because the (trusted) people (in your network) are here, so the conversation happens here. --- How to move this? Backlinking FF on PLOS should be technically possible? Which FF tracks are discussing this article? A little bit like natures, which blogs are discussing this article.
- joergkurtwegner
genereg, that's a very narrow point of view and does not reflect my experience. We are providing public peer review, if you want to call it that. As scientists we are quite happy providing "critical" reviews at conferences and posters, it's not like that people are necessarily averse
- Deepak Singh
I think jkw has pin-pointed the most interesting question (also mentioned by Bjoern and several others): how can PLoS pull in value from conversations happening elsewhere? I think it would be a great idea if every PLoS article had a "conversations" tab as well as a "comments" tab, and under "conversations" provided links to, or inline versions of, all the commentary online in blogs, FriendFeed, etc etc. A one-stop shop for "who is talking about this article?".
- Bill Hooker
There is a point in this that echoes what Eric Weinstein says about "going short" or long on an idea. The concept that peer review fails precisely because there is no personal consequences for rejecting a paper and getting that wrong. Eric uses the language of hedge funds to suggest that people should be required to "unwind their positions" - which absolutely requires identity and...
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- Cameron Neylon
I think PLoS is interested in pulling this commentary in to the article space. It would be a great way of connecting up commentary. I think it is technically non-trivial but it also raises the issue of how you might summarise or aggregate the commentary in a machine readable and parseable form. Sure it is helpful seeing a lot of people saying something is great or rubbish, but how do you present that in a way that makes it possibel to triage 50 papers to find the one you're after?
- Cameron Neylon
If you want (noisy) links, just use Google with link:to_article, e.g. http://www.google.be/search... . This does not give quality backlinks, and also not any real-time information like FF. So, some additional comment semantics (microblog, blog?), grouping (Wordle?), or central service is required (FF,Twitter).
- joergkurtwegner
All our talks about some kind of federated comment system in the past year or so have ended up with "we need a researcherID to incentivize people". That's the opposite of anonymity. Would G Bilder care to comment on how things are going on that front?
- Mr. Gunn
You guys don't believe me, but here it is -- a simple solution to the question why people do not comment online articles. Allow anonymous comments (no IP tracking, no registration requirements) and you will get at least 1 comment per 100 views of each article. That is a lot, and enough to get the system working. I am telling this both as an active scientist and as a person with ~10 year experience of online administration and moderation. It is very easy to check this idea.
- genereg
I think there's different kinds of comments - some throwaway comments, some are metacommentary, some are spam, and some are thoughtful and considered reviews. The PLoS appspot comment categorization experiment that was done a while back showed this.http://scintilla.nature.com/node...
- Mr. Gunn
PLoS has a hard enough time staying afloat. Aggregating comments like is suggested here would be a full time job for someone over at PLoS. Yes, there are software solutions, but most of them require human editting or verification. FWIW, guest commenting is a must for starting any on-line community. Having to register is a gigantic barrier to building a critical mass of users. Get the guest comments and conversations going first and once the community gels, people will WANT to register.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
Nature Network is probably the example they have in mind here, Brian. Am I correct that it takes more time to moderate the craziness in open discussion than it does to assemble aggregated content?
- Mr. Gunn
It is clear that in the majority of cases conversations dont natually happen at the journal site itself. Therefore, PLoS would ideally like to aggregate all the externally located conversations that happen *about* a paper, *onto* the paper. In this way, a reader would use the paper as the launching off point - they read it, and then follow links from it to read the relevant conversations. If the 3rd parties allow it, then the text of those conversations could also be imported to the journal site.
- Peter Binfield
The only problem is how to reliably link the paper to an external conversation that could have happened anywhere, without any consistent linking protocol, and at any time from the day of publication onwards. They dont all happen on FF I am afraid (some of the Darwinius discussions appeared on Wargaming bulletin boards!). This is a problem that we have some ideas about, and that we are working on...
- Peter Binfield
You still don't believe that just removing the mandatory registration is enough to get the comments system working at the journal web site.... Well here is one more argument: look at the web site of BMJ, and compare how much more frequent is commenting there in comparison with PLoS. The ONLY difference is that BMJ does not require mandatory registration for posting comments:...
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- genereg
@genereg: how many man-hours and dollars does BMJ spend on moderation of their comment system? See: Revitalising rapid responses Davies and Delamothe BMJ.2005; 330: 1284
- Bill Hooker
compare: http://blogs.nature.com/wp... to http://blogs.nature.com/wp... that is, compare 2% to 18% (of papers commented on in BMC vs. PLoS ONE).
- Bora Zivkovic
BMJ is the British Medical Journal, not to be confused with BMC. BMC is the same as PLoS from the point of view that you need to register in order to comment.
- genereg
sorry, not meant to imply they are the same, just to point out that commenting on ONE is not shabby and the only available comparison is that to BMC.
- Bora Zivkovic
Note also that you don't have to register for BMJ but you do have to send your comment by email, providing an email address and name, current occupation and place of work (including postcode). Perhaps you could try making up fake info and see if it gets published, but I'd say simply registering once under a carefully guarded netonym would be easier and safer.
- Bill Hooker
@Bill, I was just able to sumit a post to BMJ with the word test in all fields, and it takes ~30 sec. It's not by email. Their submission form is the simplest form that one can imagine, you can fill whatever, and finally there is a simple antispam filter, that's it. No registration, no email validation.
- genereg
Where'd you comment? I bet it won't be published.
- Bill Hooker
I did not press the "submit" button, so it would not publish. It takes 30 sec to do everything before pressing the final submit button. As I said, then it depends on the moderation policy, whether the journal has a premoderation or postmoderation, I don't know what they have, both options are OK.
- genereg
As far as I can tell it's pre-mod, and I don't think Dr Ano Nymus, email no@thanks.com, is going to appear in the BMJ rapid responses any time soon. I'd love to know if they require email validation. To be clear though: I'm in no way against anonymous commenting, even if it does have its problems. BMJ had to tighten its moderation policy considerably, but only after about the 50, 000th...
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- Bill Hooker
"and get the community growing" -- the obvious thing is that the "community" which might be willing to comment on the online articles is the Whole Scientific Community. Most people today get articles from the web, not from the local libraries, so it is not a problem for them to comment online if there are no artificial barriers such as a mandatory registration. Something like 1 comment...
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- genereg
Genereg - I think I agree with you on one point, which is that signon for all these things could be a lot easier. Setting up yet another account is a pain and we need better systems for that. But my belief is, and I think this is backed up by a growing amount of experience, that anonymity in particular destroys trust in conversations and leads to a very poor quality of discussion. In...
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- Cameron Neylon
Cameron, suppose, the comment under the article says "you guys have to reshuffle the axes on Figure 2. He-he :)". You look at the article and realize that indeed the axis X refers to Y and axis Y refers to X, so they should be reshuffled. And you might not notice that without the anonymous comment under the article. Does it make any difference for you, who has made that comment?
- genereg
It might make a difference to how much attention I paid in the first place - but my argument is that those helpful comments would be totally outweighed by comments like "man, your colour choices are so bad, which idiot did you get to make that graph?" - or the cost of moderating those out would rise to unsustainable levels. First law of comment forums - you can have anonymous commenting...
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- Cameron Neylon
I think that comments like "man, your colour choices are so bad, which idiot did you get to make that graph?" would be absolutely OK if rephrased "I think the color choice is wrong". The moderation policy may depend on the journal, but in general, both the Netiquette and Scientific Ethics are well-developed things, they can be written down explicitly as the rules for the moderators, and...
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- genereg
I'm guessing we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The nice thing being of course that as we are scientists we can hopefully agree once there is some evidence in! :-) I definitely would agree with the argument that we need more experimentation in this space
- Cameron Neylon
"First law of comment forums - you can have anonymous commenting or unmoderated commenting, you can't have both" -- In fact, I have seen many online communities, where both anonymous commenting, registered commenting and different types of moderation perfectly coexist.
- genereg
definitely some scientists really afraid give a critical comments online, just because of academia and grants system (in US at least) is fucked up (in case if author of paper that you critically commented on will be you peer-reviewer in future...)! For me also could be a problem, because i'm a postdoc and my blog reading some professors(on whose papers i can comment) who going to review my papers and grants in the future.
- Alexey
I express some of my thoughts here - http://hematopoiesis.info/2008...
- Alexey
I disagree that commenting for scientific analytical blogs should be anonymous, because blog content should be updatable and readers should trust information that they see. In this case it's important to link to the comment associated with particular name in the field to estimate how much we can trust this information.
- Alexey
Alexey, I agree on blogs, but blogs is a different story, blogs are mostly for self-promotion and self-expression, while comments on scientific articles are mainly to fix scientific problems. The motivation to fix a scientific mistake is usually strong enough to do this even anonymously.
- genereg
If there were an easy solution to this, it would have been solved already. Many, many very smart people have tried to fix this already. I think, like Cameron says, we're more or less waiting for the transition to where online comments matter. To where they're taken seriously, to where they have an effect on the overall profile of your research. To where the argument can be made that...
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- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, I understand your point about the importance of self-promotion and career track, but I think that commenting online articles has nothing to do with this.
- genereg
So you think your blog and your online presence have nothing to do with your career? Why post your CV on your blog, then? Nobody that matters will see it, right?
- Mr. Gunn
I don't understand completely why scientists afraid to comment papers online under their real names. I do comment on PLoS and Nature under my real name even i have a some risks as a postdoc. It's everything about your scientific authority. I want professionals in the field to know me.
- Alexey
Mr. Gunn, Blog as I said is a self-expression, and self-promotion, but comments at online journals are not. PS. Please read my message concerning your blog post!
- genereg
I'll do that, but you probably want to go back through your comments here http://friendfeed.com/genereg... and remove all the ones where you linked to your own blog.
- Mr. Gunn
Alexey, are you sure you can say everything you want there under your name? As you said, you consider some risks for you as a postdoc. Now, assume that your risks as a postdoc are minor in comparison with the risks of a senior scientist, where there are million-dollar grants on stock.
- genereg
@genereg , @Cameron - I am not interested in anonymous comments. I am an industry person working in drug development, which is probably one of the most intellectual property sensitive industries. So, anonymous comments? Not for me, even not in my private time ! If you want comments from people in industry, then we seriously need a review mechanism, not only by the blog owner, but a...
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- joergkurtwegner
We have just witnessed a next round of the test case, with my own name not associated with my FF account being found in the internet and posted in a blog article discussing this thread http://synthesis.williamgunn.org/2009... . Not a big deal. However, this opens up a new large series of questions...
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- genereg
genereg, perhaps the misunderstanding lies in the fact that you thought you were anonymous but you really never were. I didn't go searching the internet for your name - you linked directly to your blog from here. There are ways of being anonymous on the internet if that's what you really want. What your doing seems to me the equivalent to leaving your house open and unlocked, telling...
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- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, I am never hiding my identity, but it is also not directly associated with my profile. This means that I am safe in terms of the search engines, and my real name is associated only with things with which I want it to be associated. That is also true, if you are commenting a strange (wrong) journal article: even if you are right and they are wrong, your name will be forefer associated with that wrong article.
- genereg
Unless you got out of your way to make it so, anonymity does not exist, so we should probably just get over it and worry more about being presentable. I'll offer myself up as an example - Search for either William Gunn or Mr. Gunn and try to find something embarrassing about me. Go ahead, I'll wait.
- Mr. Gunn
LOL I am too old for these games. And I know Internet. And Science. The real anonymity is impossible even with anonymous peer-review. But there are a lot of reasons to have _some degree_ of anonymity in science and in the internet. It just works like this. It can't work without this.
- genereg
genereg, on that last issue I have to disagree. If we want to use the web in general to discuss science, it's very difficult to separate the two. Google is not going to index you separately as a scientist and as a web participant. Well, it might, but managing that level of identity is hard, and one could argue that the two shouldn't be completely separated, just the communities might...
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- Deepak Singh
Deepak, I understand the point. However, here are additnial 5 cents, why anonymous commenting might help. At some point, there was an evaluation of BMC comments, and it revealed, if I am not wrong, only 17% critical comments. while in an anonymous peer-review most of the comments are critical. Thus, even if we forget about the decreased number of online comments due to the registration...
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- genereg
genereg, if this statistics is correct, that show to me how immature the scientists and science online. They afraid to disclose their name and status because of money-grants-career and poke each other by critical anonymous commenting like a kids in the sand box. Be open, be confident in your data and expertise scientists, be able to accept critical comments and reply nicely and be able...
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- Alexey
You are assuming that comments must be critical to be useful. Useful comments can include questions, concerns, and criticisms, and even the latter can be framed properly. I have said this before, and I will reiterate that there is one primary reason for anonymity; that you're afraid of making a fool of yourself in public. I admit that this fear might be related to concerns about your...
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- Deepak Singh
genereg, yea I can tell not everything from my blog, but a lot. I criticize a lot, but if i'm wrong, come and tell me about it. I'll accept and we will find the truth in discussion. I can't tell many things that I don't feel like i have enough expertise and knowledge but I can ask my readers about their opinion based on their expertise.
- Alexey
Alexey, this means that you criticize the things which are safe to criticize :)
- genereg
Deepak, assume that you are at a journal club in some friendly lab. Now, how many of the questions from there would you dare to ask at the comment section of the online journal? :)
- genereg
How many journal club questions would I "dare" ask in a journal comments section? All of them. genereg, are you familiar with http://researchblogging.org
- Mr. Gunn
All of them?! good! If this is the case we will soon get the system working :) I did not get your point about http://researchblogging.org
- genereg
genereg, all of them. If there is something to say, it will be said, regardless of forum. The language might change, but the questions and comments won't
- Deepak Singh
good. unfortunately other people do not behave like this. we have seen it in the example with Biophotonics paper. Many people wanted to say that it is wrong, but none said this at the journal web site..
- genereg
Let me ask this question. If this was presented at a conference, do you think people in the audience would be quiet?
- Deepak Singh
not, sure. the question still, is why they don't comment.
- genereg
Could it be as simple as they are not that comfortable on the web? They don't comment on Friendfeed either (the ones who do are active everywhere).
- Deepak Singh
nope, i discussed this with a couple of active bloggers. they are not at FF, they are active bloggers, and they have seen the article at the journal we site. we discussed it online, that's it
- genereg
Do they blog anonymously? and if not, would they blog about this? Sorry if that's been discussed before
- Deepak Singh
nope. what's the reason to blog anonymously. it was discussed before. blog is to express and advertise yourself, peer-review is something absolutely different
- genereg
I just don't get it. An opinion is an opinion, regardless of medium. To think that the medium somehow makes that opinion different and you are not willing to stand behind your opinion just does not compute in my head, but that's me
- Deepak Singh
Just try to think why the anonymous peer-review was invented.
- genereg
The primary reason for anonymous peer-review is the elimination of bias. If the reason for anonymous peer-review was to be able to criticize anonymously, then the system would be even more flawed than it is today (and it is flawed).
- Deepak Singh
"Several of the other journals published by the BMJ group[10] allow optional open peer review,[11][12][13] as do PLoS Medicine, published by the Public Library of Science[14][15]. The BMJ's Rapid Responses[16] allow ongoing debate and criticism following publication.[17" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- genereg
These journal comments that we discuss should have been that "open peer-review"
- genereg
Open = No anonymity, otherwise it's not open, and like Neil said, comments and an "open peer review" process are different beasts
- Deepak Singh
right. but if it does not work this way, we can try to figure out another way
- genereg
That I won't disagree with, but anonymous commenting is not the right way
- Deepak Singh
it depends, what is more important for you, the ideas or the people who say them. for me, the ideas
- genereg
Both, anonymity, IMO is ripe for abuse.
- Deepak Singh
well, as I said, just removing the mandatory registration does not mean a complete anonymity. plus the moderation....
- genereg
Agree that scientific identity is an area with a lot of potential for innovation. The way I see it, we aren't that far apart in intent.
- Deepak Singh
Haha, this is what I get for waiting a day to come back to the feed!! @Mr.Gunn for sure moderation is a time consuming job, although I think that aside from blocking spam (and this is relatively easy) that the vast majority of posts will be on topic. Things might get ugly, but implementing a community self moderation system usually works really well ex: add a "Flag this comment" button,...
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- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
Here is what I think. Never underestimate the number of possible compliance regulations people can violate. There are many of them, and the number is just growing. - http://ff.im/3haYq
- joergkurtwegner
Interesting how the discussion around the original article quickly drifted away from the scientific content and toward a meta-discussion, which was continued here. Could there be something more fundamental at work here? Also, anyone got any hard data on just how unused the PLoS commenting system is? For example, "the average number of comments on a PLoS article is 0.55 - here's how we calculated it." An analysis of that sort could offer new insights.
- Rich Apodaca
Rich - There are plenty of examples of deep online discussion of scientific papers that stays on-topic, and doesn't drift off-topic. But so far as I can see, it's mostly happening on blogs. See, e.g., the n-category cafe ( http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/categor... ).
- Michael Nielsen
Rich: there's this (http://blogs.nature.com/wp...) and a couple other workups of the same data.
- Bill Hooker
wow, direct critique only 7%. Again as with BMC there is a shift towards positive and neutral comments, probably due to non-anonymity, as opposed to the typical comments obtained during anonymous peer review
- genereg
I would be curious to see the age groups for any comment percentage numbers
- joergkurtwegner
Another reason may simply be technical: PLoS ONE uses a kind of pop-up window (duuno the tech term for these) that blocks the whole browser. If I am to write thoughtful comments, I usually check some sources relevant to the statements I make, so I do not find this implementation particularly user-friendly. Just now, my browser (Firefox 3) froze after I had pressed "submit" in this window, and I had to redo the rating (fortunately, I had drafted the text in a separate text editor).
- Daniel Mietchen
I think there should be a shift towards neutral and positive comment between the peer review process and after a paper has been accepted. If there's no shift, the peer review process isn't doing its job.
- Scott Joseph Kennedy
That is true. But in general it seems that in Internet most serious comments to serious articles tend to be critical, because neutral comments do not add anything (so they are close to spam unless they provide some additional usefull information), and writing positive comments is not self-motivating (you spend your valuable time just to say that you agree with something).
- genereg
I'm thinking Jorge Cham from PhD comics must have seen this thread. http://bit.ly/9oBAM
- Mr. Gunn
LOL, that's exactly what the "neutral" comments are. This spam can only happen in the absence of moderation.
- genereg
Related thread at StackOverFlow: Why aren’t people rating questions? http://stackoverflow.com/questio...
- Daniel Mietchen
January 11, 2013. Today I have read with great interest a recent article in the Guardian, which also proposed anonymous post-publication peer-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science...), and have one essential comment to it. The idea of the anonymous post-publication peer-review was firstly introduced here, at FriendFeed in 2009 (see the...
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- genereg
January 26, 2013. Today I noticed a great new web site pubpeer.com which has implemented the ideas that I have proposed above. Ok, three years later it is still not too late :) It would be nice if the authors contact me, because their web site still lacks a couple of essential components that would be needed
- genereg
RT @wilbanks: We may disagree about methods, but it's not just about cost. That's why we work with publishers to develop new revenue models.
John Dupuis, Graham Steel and Yo. Shark Dog. liked this
THINGS ASIANS HATE - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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MisterQ, Yo. Shark Dog., Derrick and 2 other people liked this
Kind of agog that people say some of these things. But yeah, I totally believe people do.
- RepoRat
They definitely do. I'm only 1/4 Korean and look totally white unless you know, and I've been told/asked several of them personally.
- Rachel Walden
I'm horrified that people say this stuff (not at all surprised, though).
- Laura H.
Surprised at how many people did not realize this was satire: http://fragments-of-truth.blogspot.com/2013... @stevesilberman @jalees_rehman
Victor Ganata, Joe "Bad Guts" Silence, Egon Willighagen and 2 other people liked this
Else Beer.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
from iPod
When LITA had a Fuzzy Match Interest Group, one of the more brilliant papers was on Write-Only Memory: storage to which you could write but never read. Same idea, but generalized. (Little did we know at the time that diskettes would mostly become write-only media.)
- Walt Crawford
So, where can we read up on people who did not get it?
- Egon Willighagen
Great question, Egon....
- Graham Steel
No matter how extreme the satire, some % of people won't get it. After all, they saw it on the internet: It must be true.
- Walt Crawford
RT @davidmwessel: Lance Armstrong books moving to the fiction section. h/t @ThemisSal photo http://twitpic.com/bwvhbf
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Egon Willighagen, Rajarshi Guha, RepoRat and Graham Steel liked this
Wise words on the economics of reference mgrs (in fact prob. most apps for researchers) from @stakats via @sharmanedit http://quintessenceofham.org/2013...
Graham Steel liked this
Afternoon repost: Library vendors, politics, Aaron Swartz, #pdftribute http://scienceblogs.com/confess...
Marie, Yo. Shark Dog., Hedgehog and 3 other people liked this
I actually don't agree that first sale is a lost cause. I think it'll blow up BIG if Wiley wins Wiley v. Kirtsaeng.
- RepoRat
Aside from that quibble, though, GREAT post, and thank you for writing it.
- RepoRat
You're welcome. As for the 1st sale thing, I have to admit that I change my mind on that on a pretty well daily basis.
- John Dupuis
"As for “political,” in my books every decision in this context is political. Deciding against activism is just as political as deciding for it." LOVE. LOVE. LOVE.
- laura x
^^^^^ me too. that was one hell of a couple of sentences.
- RepoRat
Thanks. My personal favourite line from my post is this one: sometimes I think that every time I link to a Scholarly Kitchen article, an open access journal loses its wings.
- John Dupuis
WE ARE ALL #AARONSWARTZ | Dan Bull - tribute vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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John Dupuis and Graham Steel liked this
RT @FillWerrel: I farted in the Apple store and everyone got pissed. Not my fault they don't have Windows...
Graham Steel liked this
Thoughts on Mendeley and Elsevier - http://iphylo.blogspot.com/2013...
suelibrarian, Christina Pikas, Graham Steel and John Dupuis liked this
So do most ppl have option to d/load their Twitter archive now? If you care it's the cogwheel, settings, scroll down, bit more, stop :)
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RT @surlyF: @Richvn @researchremix There are some very clear biases built into these NPG questions, e.g., OA is only enabled through author-pays model.
Yo. Shark Dog. and Graham Steel liked this
RT @grotophorst: Pretty sure this Mendeley acquisition means Elsevier’s embracing a commitment to free and open access. That’s a relief…
lris, Graham Steel, Kirsten and Christina Pikas liked this
lollerskates
- Sarah G.
he's my former boss. he's a hoot; I luh him. I tweeted back "keep telling yourself that, man."
- RepoRat
Don't think anyone saw this coming...
- Graham Steel
Deets at http://techcrunch.com/2013...
- Graham Steel
I'm not surprised Mendeley cashed out. They were startup funded, I believe, so this is a typical way for the investors to get their money back. And I think Mendeley definitely gets integrated into the whole SciVerse product suite making it a tool that pulls people to the Elsevier content while also giving the Big E amazing analytics about just about everything.
- John Dupuis
Is there a way that Mendeley could restrict any internal sharing only where it doesn't violate any kinds of licenses? Presumably most publishers are already pretty ok with the way they operate or as they've gotten bigger we would have heard about it.
- John Dupuis
Yes, Mendeley were startup funded, roughly £4M from memory.
- Graham Steel
err, make that $2M http://techcrunch.com/2009...
- Graham Steel
New from Houghton/Swan: "The most affordable & cost-effective means of moving towards OA .. is through Green OA." - http://www.dlib.org/dlib...
Graham Steel and Björn Brembs liked this
Conclusion: "The evidence, both ours and that of others, clearly suggests that disseminating research results via OA would be more cost-effective than subscription or toll access publishing. In an all-OA world, it seems likely that the net benefits of Gold OA would exceed those of Green OA, although Green OA would have a higher benefit/cost ratio. However, we are not in an all-OA world yet, nor anywhere near it. The most affordable and cost-effective means of moving towards OA in the meantime is through Green OA, which can be adopted unilaterally at the funder, institutional, sectoral and national levels at little cost. Moreover, Green OA may well be the most immediate and cost-effective way to support knowledge transfer and enable innovation across the economy."
- Seb Schmoller
from Bookmarklet
How to provide access to all publicly funded science - and save a few billions very year - http://bjoern.brembs.net/news...
Graham Steel liked this
Hivemind question for those involved with OA: I've added an editorial close to the second part of my Huge OA Roundup, "Of Progress, Snipers and Inquisitors." I distinguish between flat-out opponents of OA (e.g. SK) and snipers and Inquisitors, decidedly capital-I [Presumed supporters of OA who need to Purify OA to be The True OA] The question:
Graham Steel liked this
Right now, I name some names of Inquisitors of various stripes (one of whom may actually be an opponent-in-disguise). Should I name names or keep the discussion general?
- Walt Crawford
If you name names, provide evidence with direct quotes to explain why you think they are what they are.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
I'm with RJR. You might also want to label them something like Too True Believers or No Compromisers to show that they aren't outright opponents. I'm also curious as to who ends up in that category? I have some thoughts....
- John Dupuis
While I could do that, it would be tricky: Inquisitors emerge through patterns, not individual statements. So I'd need to quote dozens of statements.
- Walt Crawford
Ahhh, I see the prob.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
Two of the three Inquisitors I'm thinking of are most definitely OA supporters--but only The True Form of OA. The third--well, damned if I know whether he's a supporter or an opponent.
- Walt Crawford
It's a hard thing to do. I'm not sure there's any way to do it that won't court blowback. If you're willing to put up with that... you'll actually be codifying some knowledge that a lot of us have, but remains unspoken because we fear the ensuing hassle. It's your call whether that's worth it to you.
- RepoRat
Come to think of it, I actually include five examples--and the fifth one is me, showing how easy it is to become Inquisitorial (in my case: I tend to think "delayed OA" isn't really OA).
- Walt Crawford
Would you be willing to do yourself as a named example and then describing the other types anonymously?
- Hedgehog
That may be what I wind up doing. (RR: My comment overlapped yours. I think you may be right, and my best bet may be to name the symptoms and avoid the named examples.) Thanks all; keep comments coming if you wish. (Off to lunch; no rush on making changes, since the issue won't come out before 1/22.)
- Walt Crawford
Can you frame the Inquisitor role in such a way that the person in question would think it positive? Or is the whole point to make clear the damage that it causes? (and if I'm one then feel free to name me!)
- Cameron Neylon
I think about J Smooth and "How to Tell People They Sound Racist": perhaps "inquisition" is not what people are but what they do.
- Steele Lawman
Cameron: No, you're not one (AFAICT)--and the point is to make clear that it can be damaging (but is no longer likely to wholly derail OA, just as snipers and the truly absurd cases like SK won't derail OA). Steele: I have to think about that. But more and more leaning to non-naming (except that asshat Walt Crawford).
- Walt Crawford
Naming or non-naming, what I was trying to say was that it might be more useful to point out that some rhetorical moves are inquisitional rather than some human beings fit into the category of "inquisitor"
- Steele Lawman
Ah, OK; I get that. [Of the five I probably won't name, I think one is an Inquisitor by nature, three are capable of Inquisitions but aren't necessarily that by nature...and one, I just can't tell, but I think may be mostly a self-promoter who's found a cause.] Probably a good editorial tactic.
- Walt Crawford
I am someone who is trying to really understand the complexities of OA and why the community seems divided, so such a piece could be really interesting to me on why the community seems divided would be great. So far, I get Peter Suber is the leading guru that gets respect even from opponents who disagree, Harnad just supports green and Walt comments on everyone :). But really I should...
more...
- aarontay
Maybe you could make use of a persona system. Neo the One. Screech the Skeptic ("Saved by the Bell" guy). Willy the Wishy-Washy guy. Annie the Angry. Connie the Compromiser.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
Aaron: Actually, I think you have it in one. Joe: Not for a three-paragraph addendum to a 60,000-word roundup (twice the length of my OA book...). Otherwise, not a bad idea. I do think I know how I can handle this to be informative without Naming Names other than my own.
- Walt Crawford
Also: I'm not sure "the community" really is divided, partly because I don't think there is one community. I'd guess that most people involved are working toward building OA and staying out of other OA-builders' ways. That probably includes 90%+ of those I cite in the roundup.
- Walt Crawford
Just to close this: I've rewritten the paragraphs involved, and they read better now (with only one Inquisitor named--Walt Crawford). The focus is on the techniques, not the people. Thanks for the advice!
- Walt Crawford
processing the loss of Aaron Swartz - http://www.zephoria.org/thought...
MisterQ, Derrick, ҀҾѦ and Graham Steel liked this
Aaron Swartz was not a hacker. He was a builder. - http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger...
Björn Brembs, Yo. Shark Dog., Danilo P. and 4 other people liked this
For Mary Carmen. Told you so.
Kirsten, Stephan Planken, Graham Steel and 5 other people liked this
Awesome!
- Mary Carmen
In a can even. The mind just boggles...
- WebGoddess
have you tried it yet?
- Mary Carmen
Ive eaten vegetarian haggis.
- Jason P
No. No balls, really - I can't even imagine it. Janson will have to tell us what it was like.
- WebGoddess
I figure I'll start small. They also had haggis flavored potato chips. I'll grab those next time I'm there and try them, then work up to the big can.
- WebGoddess
Haggis is delish! If you can deal with sausage, you can deal with haggis. :)
- Jaclyn aka spamgirl
That's a big If. Other than andouille in the specific case of gumbo, I don't do mystery meat. And despite my Scottish surname, I'm unlikely to do haggis...
- Walt Crawford
As a Scot, I have a somewhat unusual position on haggis. I tried it as a kid and hated it. Namely the notion of eating diced heart/lung/liver and all that - SPEW. I love it now, but still cant >>stomach<< (geddit?) the thought of eating said internal organs, at least in an un-diced form.
- Graham Steel
I just had a comment published in Nature! Is about the NSF valuing more than just Publications, and how altmetrics will help.http://www.nature.com/nature... (free for 1-2 weeks) Working on blog post about it...
LibrarianOnTheLoose, Elizabeth Brown, Maitani and 15 other people liked this
In the meantime, David Colquhoun has decided to make his distaste for altmetrics personal by discrediting the messanger. Since I have you guys to thank for increasing my awareness of classic derailing techniques, figured I'd point it out: https://twitter.com/david_c...
- Heather Piwowar
I've responded to him w facts about my credentials and an open offer to talk about the substance of his claims. It isn't the first time he's taken this approach. Yknow, if you don't like the ideas, talk about the ideas.
- Heather Piwowar
what a dick
- jambina
because wetlab experience is what matters? Doesn't he know that the only sciences are the hard ones?
- DJF
I read his tweet and your response and actually said "hoo!" out loud quietly to myself in my office. Well done.
- Catherine Pellegrino
Because whatever he considers real scientists are all really smart and correct all the time about altmetrics. Or not.
- Rachel Walden
Real scientists don't care about data. or something.
- DJF
Ah, but are you a managerialist or a quack? jambina +1
- John Dupuis
Classy response! Go you :)
- Christina Pikas
from iPhone
I agree with Christina. It's clear he was completely unprepared to be called on his classless remarks.
- John Dupuis
Did you also respond to that blog post I forwarded to you? Let me see if I can find it. http://plested.wordpress.com/2013...
- Yo. Shark Dog.
from iPod
Actually, I'd be interested in some pointers to a refutation of the blog post from Run Joe Run above - it does seem that many altmetrics capture the attention garnered by a some aspect of research. But how does one extract meaning from that?
- Rajarshi Guha
gosh :(
- Ross Mounce
You'd think someone against managerialsim ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... ) would actually *support* the broadening of research evaluation. I don't think he's read enough around the subject. Seems to be caught on the straw-man argument that it's just raw uncontextualised numbers of tweets and facebook likes.
- Ross Mounce
@Rajarshi you might be interested in my refutations against some of the misunderstandings about altmetrics here on this thread: http://occamstypewriter.org/boboh...
- Ross Mounce
Thanks Ross. The comment thread there is quite interesting - but the sense I get from is that while citation stats focus on scholarly usage, the altmetrics focus on social media citations (tweets etc) is more oriented towards public/popular usage of research. Certainly, it seems to be linked to how connectd you are. I'd guess there's some sort of 'rich get richer' effect at play in these metrics (?)
- Rajarshi Guha
"Rich get richer" is a recurrent problem, everywhere. It caused by human nature, sadly. Despite our "civilization", humans are still selfish bastards: "feed my own children first". Fortunately, many people do realize that doing that *can* also be beneficial for other children. Sadly, many don't (or don't care or worse). And then there is a class of people who mix up trust and science:...
more...
- Egon Willighagen
Now, back to #altmetrics... it *is* a really important question: what is impact. Too many people do not see that metrics are tools (estimates) of what we are really interested in. But since we do not have clear what we really are interested in (except food for the children), it is hard to rank metrics. Worse, people think they understand what those metrics estimate, and are often wrong....
more...
- Egon Willighagen
Additionally, we need good (open) diagrams showing how various impacts relate to each other... "without visibility, no impact" (whatever those mean). Each connection will be linked to literature about that link. For example, does higher accessibility lead to higher citation counts?
- Egon Willighagen
Finally (and then I'll try to do some "science" again, hahahaha!) we need better tools for measuring thing. For example, can we please finally start taking CiTO serious and start pushing that massively?
- Egon Willighagen
+1 for CiTO :)
- Ross Mounce
What is CiTO ??
- Graham Steel
After a brief twitter exchange, this guy is clearly an "everything worthwhile must be in traditional journal articles" fellow, with no apparent interest in either acknowledging his rudeness to Heather or in seeing anything of value outside of traditional publishing methods.
- Rachel Walden
@Graham: http://www.essepuntato.it/lode... CiTO, the Citation Typing Ontology, is an ontology for the characterization of citations, both factually and rhetorically. It forms part of SPAR, a suite of Semantic Publishing and Referencing Ontologies.
- Ross Mounce
It's not just some ideological 'great idea' vapourware either. Citeulike has had it implemented for ages http://jodischneider.com/blog... trouble is marking up the relationships is currently all manual. If anyone has some semi-automated approaches / workflows I'd love to hear about it
- Ross Mounce
Wow, Rachel masterfully shows how it is done, here https://twitter.com/rachel_... and in subsequent tweets. Thanks for calling him on it in public, Rachel. Whether I'm a scientist or not shouldn't matter (though he's got no leg to stand on to say I'm not), let's talk issues.
- Heather Piwowar
+1 for CiTO. I dunno the best way to push it though, no tool yet that makes it easy. I think it'd have to be a tool that automatically classifies them when you submit a paper, and then authors are tasked to fix wrong ones. or other ideas?
- Heather Piwowar
The CDC goes mobile, releases a great public health app for your patients | Medical Apps | Scoop.it - http://www.scoop.it/t...
Graham Steel and Berci Mesko, MD liked this
The CDC goes mobile, releases a great public health app for your patients | @scoopit http://t.co/WL4wGKaS
- Guus van den Brekel
A year in Open Access advocacy: 2012 - http://scienceblogs.com/confess...
Kubke, Björn Brembs, Walt Crawford and 6 other people liked this
Yeah, it has been quite the year.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
:)
- RepoRat
Probably one of the best years to date, imo.
- Graham Steel
2012 was certainly one of those "may you live in interesting times" kind of years. More of the same will probably mean progress on a number of OA-related fronts.
- John Dupuis
2012 struck me as being a year of considerable OA potential. I wouldn't have resumed writing about OA otherwise. (Also a year in which the lines between OA Inquisitors and snipers became fuzzy--but that's a post or essay I need to write.)
- Walt Crawford
Definitely worth checking out for the humanities/social sciences (and other!) librarians amongst us: Public Library of Humanities: Envisioning a New Open Access Platform: http://tjm.org/2012...
Graham Steel, Matt Hodgkinson, RudĩϐЯaЯïan and 4 other people liked this
Anybody want in on the ground floor? They're asking: https://twitter.com/rmounce...
- John Dupuis
Too old and cynical, me. I still think it's too soon for this. But I hope they damn well prove me wrong!
- RepoRat
While I've tagged that item--as the first OA tag *after* the roundup I just finished--I'm sort of with RR on this one, esp. given much of what I saw in that discussion. [Both ignorance of history and ignorance of the economics of the humanities. And considering Harnad to be one of us/them?] But, as with RR, I'd be happy if I was wrong--well, not at PLoS's prices!
- Walt Crawford
What I might consider trying to whomp up instead is a SPIRES-like article-level search portal for all the shoestring-OA humanities and SS journals already OUT there. Less sexy, but the kind of thing that, if it becomes a search destination, will inveigle the clueless into asking "what's a scholar gotta do to... oh, open access?... okay, whatever, just do it."
- RepoRat
RR: That's the kind of effort that either an ARL library or, y'know, ARL itself (or SPARC as an arm of ARL) should ideally take on. Or maybe a certain four-letter library cooperative with substantial computer capabilities and a great research arm...
- Walt Crawford
Maybe. It mmmmmmmmight be easier to crowdsource. I'm honestly not sure.
- RepoRat
I wonder if a peerj like membership system would work.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
I know of several humanities journals that are free/free platinum OA journals. -- And there could be lots more like that.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
PeerJ might be feasible IF it can distance itself from the tiresome old "vanity publishing" canards.
- RepoRat
Just noticed that canard and Canada are very similar words. Are they related?
- Yo. Shark Dog.
uh... Canada does have a lot of ducks, I think?
- RepoRat
Ducks, sure, but loons are what we have on our currency.
- John Dupuis
And TJ, I too have often thought that the PeerJ model would be perfect for the HSS fields.
- John Dupuis
Canard. Not Mallard.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
Oh, maybe I am thinking of Canard, Nova Scotia.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
FWIW the concept as I understand it is not so much PLOS as template as PLOS as inspiration. Martin Eve in particular was strong on the 'we need to make this work with sufficient funding and efficiency to not ahve APCs' bit. So, is the time right to build a truly disruptive humanities publisher? I get the 'its not time yet' bit but I wonder if by the time it is the time it will be too...
more...
- Cameron Neylon
very interested
- jambina
Piece from me in Nature on #openaccess and licensing and the RCUK policy: http://t.co/hlNnrniQ (should be free to access)
Kubke, Björn Brembs, Yo. Shark Dog. and 5 other people liked this
Expecting extensive abuse from the usual quarters in 3....2.....1......
- Cameron Neylon
What a pile of utter shi....
- Graham Steel
:-)
- Cameron Neylon
I've started so I'll finish - shine on the important issues of the day.
- Graham Steel
N.B. to Cameron who is on campus at Lund, yes, yer piece is OA !!
- Graham Steel
Oh, I think I now get the irony. This one is free but not open access. Correcty?
- Graham Steel
Yeh, I did what I could but no CC BY license....
- Cameron Neylon
Well, at the very least you tried. I owe you another? pint :-)
- Graham Steel
...nah no worries. The fee is going to Creative Commons...
- Cameron Neylon
NASA Johnson Style (Gangnam Style Parody) - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Graham Steel, RepoRat and Betsy #TeamMonique liked this
The Rise of Patient Communities on Twitter - Twitter Visualized - http://www.symplur.com/shorts...
Gary M. Levin, Graham Steel and Berci Mesko, MD liked this
The Rise of Patient Communities on Twitter - Twitter Visualized http://t.co/NSDg4MeS via @symplur
- Anne Marie Cunningham
Pope uses knob cartoon as his Twitter wallpaper shock! Knobless oblige – Gruts - https://plus.google.com/1150973...
Graham Steel liked this
Pay $2000 to be qualified to play, silly unserious scholar! #dontfeedthetrolls #dontfeedthetrolls #walkingaway
Kirsten, Graham Steel and Yo. Shark Dog. liked this
have been invited to contribute an interview to SK, by an author there I respect. I've said yes. Decided I can live with myself, that pros are worth cons. ve shall see.
- Heather Piwowar
You're a more tolerant person than I am, Heather. (Not that I've ever been asked: As a OA nonentity, neither SK nor Poynder have any interest in what I have to say. I'm OK with that.)
- Walt Crawford
I woulda been all "um, no, I refuse to risk my career by being associated with those mouth-frothing haters," but that's me.
- RepoRat
i would do it - bring some reason to that place. rick can't do it alone.
- jambina
I'd rather that place not be lent any legitimacy whatsoever. Again, reasonable people can differ on how to deal with SKitch, tho.
- RepoRat
Yes, use the force.
- Yo. Shark Dog.
force hell, pass me that there lightsaber
- RepoRat
I did a thing with David Crotty. The comments got irritating very quickly and I gave up...probably best to decide in advance whether to engage with the comments or not...
- Cameron Neylon
Good point. I think I'd better avoid the comments for sanity.
- Heather Piwowar
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