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Thor Muller › Comments
Dear FF, add GetSatisfaction,please.Thx.
Chris Rogers, Rebeca, CyberSkull and 8 other people liked this
Please don't. I hate GetSatisfaction. I don't want to play silly games with emoticons and other stupid childish crap, on an over scripted site that won't even load on my other pc, if I need to file a complaint, ask for help, or make a bug report. Any company that uses GetSatisfaction, I really can't take them seriously, and I don't feel they are taking their customers/users seriously.
- April Russo (app103)
I agree with April. I don't like GetSatisfaction for the same reason. And when I tried to contact a company via GetSatisfaction, they never solved my problem or even answered.
- Brome
Hmm,looks like No Satisfaction on GetSatisfaction.:)
- Igor Poltavskiy
I don't mind either way but there are other similar services I've used, hmmm, can't remember the name of the one I thought was really well done though.
- Kol Tregaskes
Igor: What do you mean "add GetSatisfaction"? Add it as a service you can import into your feed or adopt it as a a customer service tool?
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd like to see GS available as a service to import to your feed
- Mike Chelen
If the idea is to add support for importing it as a service into your feed, I have no problem with that. But as a customer service tool to be used by Friendfeed for the reporting of issues with the Friendfeed service, I do have objections to that, as I stated before. (just to clarify that my objections are NOT related to supporting the services that friendfeed users use and want to import into their feed)
- April Russo (app103)
April, because some companies doesn't take costumers seriously, doesn't mean that GS is the one to blame. Also no one force you to use emoticons. I can't see what you mean as "other stupid childish crap", tags maybe? No one force you to use them either, but you can't call them that at all. I got helped a lot from companies that use GS, so it isn't GS's fault if some companies doesn't take us seriously. I didn't saw you to suggest something better than GS either, so: http://getsatisfaction.com/friendf...
- Saxtus
Found it, this was the other service I thought was really good: UserVoice: http://uservoice.com/. I've used it for Twhirl and a couple of others, very well done.
- Kol Tregaskes
Uservoice is very basic: It's like a big poll of ideas unlike GS that seems more like a structured discussion board, can only be used to share ideas unlike GS that can be used to solve problems, must always be endorsed by the company unlike GS that people unrelated to company can solve other people's problems.
- Saxtus
Saxtus, yes that is true. Still a nice service. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Let me clarify that my problem isn't with how companies handle issues with their customers, because even if they are paying attention and trying to be helpful, with their staff offering the greatest customer support on earth, the fact they chose to use GS is why I say they don't take their customers seriously. I have had nothing but really bad experiences with the site itself and how it...
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- April Russo (app103)
If a company chooses GS as their method of providing customer support, they don't want my business. It's as simple as that. While others may like playing with childish "oooh ahhh lots of cool ajax & smilies", I don't. Not for something that should be quick, simple, and easy and not kill my pc and cause data loss. And you want me to suggest something better than GS? Anything is better, including a spam filled forum or a tiny shoutbox.
- April Russo (app103)
April, because you only have bad experience from GS, doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Stop trying to use as excuse the smilies to degrade the service. The most powerful feature that it has, i.e. searching old threads while you type your question, to avoid duplicates, is implemented in Ajax and it's a very good way to do it (how this can be done in a forum or shoutbox automatically?).You are still unable to provide a serious specific alternative, so I can only see that the hatred for GS had consumed you.
- Saxtus
Kol, I agree it's fun and I love using it for suggesting new features. Yet it makes me sad when I see people trying to use it as support service, entering their questions in the place of suggestions...
- Saxtus
The reason why some people use it as a support service is not the fault of those asking questions but the fault of the companies that sent them there to ask them. And a serious specific alternative? How about phpbb? smf? I have been and continue to be a member of quite a few support communities that have used those to provide top notch support and build terrific communities of volunteers to help people.
- April Russo (app103)
Unfortunately, a simple forum software like those you're suggesting, isn't built to provide support but for general discussion and this is the way they should be treated for. When someone opens a new thread in a forum, system doesn't suggest him/her previous threads (so we get duplicate threads cluttering the system) and once a problem is solved, the post that provided the most feedback isn't moved at the top for faster future reference. That's why GS is better than a plain forum for CS purposes.
- Saxtus
Hi all, I'm one of the founders of Get Satisfaction, and I just wanted to thank everyone for the candid feedback. While we're really proud of the work we've done, and the often positive impact we've been able to make, we do believe we can improve the experience substantially. April, I think you're right that we need to optimize the experience, slim it down, simplify. I just took over as CTO and this is a big priority--something we've already begun with new header designs launched over the last few weeks.
- Thor Muller
Having said that, we won't be stripping out all the fun from it. One of our priorities has been to make customer support more human and enjoyable, because most people (on either side of the equation) dread it. The first version of our site was not about keeping it simple, but about figuring out what works and what doesn't as we borrow from social media design patterns to rethink customer service. With our insights in hand, we're now in a much better place to distill to essential ingredients.
- Thor Muller
And you are doing a great job, Thor. In contrast with April, I prefer how GS handles customer care. It is how customer care was supposed to be done from the start. I am intrigued to find out your next moves, please keep 'em coming!
- Bart Muskala - AdNerd Sr.
from twhirl
Thor: I use (and pay for) GS for "instant on" CS for a couple or small projects and while I agree the UX could use some streamlining, I think it does more stuff right than it does wrong. I look forward to seeing it evolve.
- Ken Sheppardson
While I like Get Satisfaction, it would be nice to see some ways/tools to encourage companies to participate. I've seen quite a few GS sites where there is hardly any company participation which kind of defeats the purpose. Obviously, it's up to the company but I can't help thinking that there must be something that can be done to improve the interaction rate.
- Jauder Ho
I don't like GetSatisfaction. It's a good idea, but poorly implemented as far as I can see. Too much work just to complain about something. I'd much rather @reply the offending brand on Twitter.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
BTW, I like the irony of having a conversation RE the pros/cons of GetSatisfaction in a room on FriendFeed.
- Ken Sheppardson
Touche.
- Jauder Ho
All good feedback. Thanks. Rahsheen, it's not an either/or re: responding via Twitter. There are a great many things for which 140 characters isn't enough. And if you want to organize answers and insight (and intercept people with the same issue) then a systemic approach makes sense. Jauder Ho, definitely agree that some game mechanics would be useful to encourage responsiveness. I think the trend towards transparency is still in the early stages.
- Thor Muller
I'd also like to see GS added to the list of services we can import feeds from. Please?
- Rebeca
Get Satisfaction, Or Else... - (37signals) - http://www.37signals.com/svn...
Bemmu Sepponen, Daniel Rowley, Abhisshek and 75 other people liked this
"They’ll use your logo, title the page “Customer service & support for [COMPANY NAME HERE]” and generally make it feel like an officially sanctioned place to get official support from the company in question. The problem: It’s not official at all. That’s misleading. ... Can you believe that language? “37signals has not yet committed to open conversations about its products or services.” WHAT?! We haven’t committed to open conversations about our products or services because we haven’t signed Get Satisfaction’s pact on Get Satisfaction’s site which generates Get Satisfaction’s income? That’s awfully close to blackmail (or a shakedown or a mafioso protection scheme)."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Wow. That's unreal. Totally changes my perception of GS.
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
Wow! That is squirrely! Twittering the link :)
- Zulema ◕ ◡ ◕
Sounds like typical GS. I really don't like that site and only recently broken my longstanding rule against using businesses that use GS.
- Admiral Anika
I'd love to see the response from GS.
- Mark Trapp
Apparently we're not committed to an open conversation about our products and services either. http://getsatisfaction.com/friendf...
- Kevin Fox
It seems like a relatively straightforward case of trademark abuse, or heck, even libel or defamation. I'm probably missing something, though. It's a shame, we were thinking of using GS for portions of our support, but if this is how they're going to treat companies...
- Mark Trapp
What's bullshit about their statement is that it ignores what happens on the actual sites. No one needs GS to attend to customer/user issues and since many companies that use GS don't even actively monitor it, it's even more of an insult to state a company is not "open conversations about it's products or services".
- Admiral Anika
There's a comment on the post from Eric Suesz, the community manager at GS. Seems like a side-step of the question, that it was intended for people who don't know as much as 37 Signals to tell the difference. Actually, there seems to be several posts from GS employees in the comments thread. One from Thor Muller suggests a mea culpa on the verbage. Edit: GS responds on GS:...
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- Mark Trapp
"Jason does raise some excellent points about the language that we're using, which conveys an intent other than what we meant, and we appreciate his comments, agree with him, and are currently in the process of cleaning the language up."
- Daniel J. Pritchett
The one feature they point to, the company message feature, is not as prominent as I'd like it to be: it blends in with all the other flair; for an example, check out: http://getsatisfaction.com/newreli... It doesn't let you remove the big ass text at the top that says it's the "Customer Support Community" for the company, either.
- Mark Trapp
They were really fast to change the wording in the plaque and the header
- Скажена бджiлка
Thor Muller outlines the changes in a comment: "We just released several changes to the top of each customer community area. 1. The badge now says “No one from [COMPANY NAME ] has sponsored, endorsed, or joined the conversation yet. ” This is what it said a week or so ago, before we messed it up in the midst of a big redesign effort. 2. We are now displaying: “Unofficial” in front of the words “Customer Support Community for [COMPANY NAME ]” whenever a company representative is not involved"
- Mark Trapp
Good for them changing it, but it would make more sense not to have it in the first place.
- Admiral Anika
Join in with this thread http://getsatisfaction.com/getsati...
- Keith - @tsudo
Well that was fast. The changes go a long way toward addressing the problem. I still wish that the logos linked to the products and that GS provided a link to the company's official support forums or contact pages if they exist.
- Kevin Fox
and contrary to almost anyone above - I love GS !!! it doesn't let you asleep on your lazy arse (ok, laurels)... it helps showing dark corners and (not so little) sins & deeds :)
- A.T.
Yeah, this is a pretty good demonstration of GS working as intended. Good save.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
GS is a bit of a pain for companies or products that already have their own support mechanisms though. There's no way (at least that I know) to replace your GS page with a big sign saying: please go to our site's support page which has a support forum that we actually check.
- Adewale Oshineye
They only changed this text after we complained. It wasn't an oversight by GS - they put that text in deliberately to try and blackmail companies into using their service.
- Anthony Feint
Yes, but they changed it as soon as someone complained on GS. Maybe they are evil, but at least they demonstrated that GS complaints can get quick results.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Thor Muller here, one of the founders. As you might imagine, I'm pretty emotionally exhausted from all this. Up until a week and a half ago we've always had a big statement at the top of our company pages that made it clear that the site wasn't endorsed by the company (unless it was). In the midst of a redesign this errant language slipped in. Once we realized the mistake we replaced it with the old verbage immediately.
- Thor Muller
We run Get Satisfaction based on very clear principles, for the record, with a commitment to creating an unbiased place for customers and companies to support each other. 90% of the customer communities are added by companies these days. We are very sensitive to making sure people don't feel censored in talking about companies and products, but this isn't done with the intention of putting companies in a bad position. We're working hard now to make sure they don't feel hijacked. It's a delicate balance!
- Thor Muller
Kudos to you guys for sorting it out so quickly. Although I believe there was some merit in the points made by 37signals, I also believe they were over the top in their critisms, especially the insinuations about racketeering and the like. I think there was just a touch of them exploiting the issue for publicity. After all, they could have addressed this fully in a much less public fashion. I take the blog post was the first you heard from them over this issue?
- Sam
from twhirl
Sam: the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's great GS took care of it so rapidly, but I think a large part of that rapidity was due to the massive exposure it got from 37Signals. If nobody notices it, it's not an urgent thing to fix.
- Mark Trapp
Mark: Fair enough, it must have helped. Although we can't really speculate about how it might have happened, as 37signals chose this route immeditately. They made a lot of acqusations within the article, some of which were based on fact, some of which were pure ad hominem. They could have spoken to them in private first and given GS the opportunity to make the changes gracefully. I think, and i appreciate it's only my opinion, but I think they would have listened and acted anyway.
- Sam
from twhirl
@Sam, but contacting GS privately wouldn't give 37 Signals the chance to pontificate and act like the saviours of the Internet. That said, I think what GS were doing was questionable at best.
- Jordan Brock
The unfortunate thing is that we stood nothing to gain from the bad language framing. Over 80% of the companies added to Get Satisfaction are done so by the companies themselves. We created the main badge for them, and the offending badge was added as an afterthought. This was absolutely not a strategic design decision.
- Thor Muller
@Sam- The irony is that a major goal of Get Satisfaction is to give *anyone* a public platform to get attention/results from companies. We're all for public airing of grievances. Though we counsel to do so in a way that doesn't assume bad intentions.
- Thor Muller
Public airing of grievances *without* assuming bad intentions... I like that!
- Meryn Stol
Um, GS over-stepped their bounds and broke norms that most of *us* wouldn't have considered fair. They got called on it---Perhaps this was from an over-eagerness to fulfill their vision---Muller: The irony is thicker than you seem to understand.
- coldbrew
Muller: "The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all." = "[Company Here] has not yet committed to an open conversation about its products and services..." ?
- coldbrew
GS seems to be grasping for a stature of trust it has not yet earned.
- coldbrew
kylehase: To be fair, I agree. I never paid attention to any of the site's specific messaging, but I understand what they're trying to do. Looked at from this perspective, it seems manipulative.
- coldbrew
Because there's so much to say, here's my open letter to Jason Fried: http://blog.getsatisfaction.com/2009... It puts everything in context.
- Thor Muller
It's too bad that Get Satisfaction operates with an extortion business model. I have seen some great customer feedback sites like PlanetFeedback or the BBB who have provided a valuable service for many years.
- Steve Levin
I wonder if the GS employee person who wrote the offending copy was A) fired or B) untouchable due to C-level job or C) merely embarrassed
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Why would you fire someone over using accidentally some unfortunate language? Nobody's perfect. They'll probably be more careful in the future. Another lesson learned.
- Meryn Stol
I don't think that the actions (unfortunate word choice on a banner) merit firing, but it's not unheard of for people to be sacrificed after public embarrassment like this. Hopefully GS is a small and friendly enough compnay not to feel that way.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
@Daniel: the ability to be embarrassed merits being not fired, no?
- Скажена бджiлка
Daniel. true. In my comment I assumed a reasonable/friendly boss. I think that was safe to do after I saw how Thor handled this. Especially a company which urges others not to assume bad intent will probably be more interested in understanding how to prevent problems in the future than making a fuss over something that happened in the past.
- Meryn Stol
Re: Designing along the edge. - http://www.deprecated.com/2009...
"It's funny how people of a certain personality type end up stumbling into this "anti-methodology" all by themselves. It's worth pointing out that we used this system to come up with Get Satisfaction, too. The basic idea was--what if we took the dirty laundry (i.e. customer support issues) that companies assume they had to sweep under the rug/keep private, and instead made them public by default. What would this do to change the dynamic of customer service itself? Turns out, doing it in public makes things work better! Another triump for anti-ism."
- Thor Muller
Beyond the Obvious : My Dream Job Starts Today - http://www.wendylea.com/blog...
"We're super excited to have Wendy join us at the Satisfactory as our fearless leader. This is one of those matches that just feels...in the stars :)"
- Thor Muller
Beyond the Obvious : My Dream Job Starts Today - http://www.wendylea.com/blog...
"We're super excited to have Wendy join us at the Satisfactory as our fearless leader. This is one of those matches that just feels...in the stars :)"
- Thor Muller
Beyond the Obvious : My Dream Job Starts Today - http://www.wendylea.com/blog...
"We're super excited to have Wendy join us at the Satisfactory as our fearless leader. This is one of those matches that just feels...in the stars :)"
- Thor Muller
Re: Default To Public - http://www.avc.com/a_vc...
""Default to public" is our refrain at Get Satisfaction. The big question that we started the business around was "what would customer service look like if it defaulted to public?" We had the Flickr anecdote in mind, and thought this inversion of traditional assumptions could be transformative not just for the company, but for customers, too. The social norm for customer service interactions is usually all around defensiveness, so we hypothesized that the right kind of public context could change the social norm to mutually sympathetic. We've been very pleased with the results, though the perennial challenge of anonymity and misaligned expectations are still tough nuts to crack."
- Thor Muller
Re: HowTo: The Macintosh will be 25 on 1/24/09 - http://mac25.org/#commen...
"I was twelve at the time, and had seen the '1984' ad during the Super Bowl. I waited in line in front of Computerland (an early computer retailer) on the January 24th to get a glimpse of it. I had a TRS-80, so knew a bit about computers, but I had never seen anything like this before. The mouse was a revelation. I especially remember MacPaint, and this mirror feature that created a kaleidoscopic effect when you made pictures by moving around this pointing device. I begged my parents to get it, and since it was morning in America, they somehow found the $2500 to buy this 128k Mac with no hard drive (not that we knew better at the time). My friends whose parents worked at Wang or IBM laughed at me because 'that thing has no power.' My uncle grilled me on what the hell I thought was going to do with this overpriced toy. That year I started making newspapers with MacPaint, MacWrite and pasteup boards. I'd bring them down to the offset printer who would make me a few hundred of these..."
- Thor Muller
@MaryHodder I agree alternate energy is important. I think electric cars with nuclear and solar is way to go except our culture is too antiN
Jeremy, Sebastiaan van den Akker, Mike Seidle and 8 other people liked this
yes, yes, yes. Nuclear, solar and wind all need to be explored much more deeply. We need more investment and more ability for entrepreneurial endeavors in these areas. There's a lack of leadership in the govt, business and society on this front. Big time...
- adam christensen
Without alternative energy, most of us won't have our jobs in a few years. :S Worries me thinking about it.
- Chris Chua
@Sean essentially that makes it antiN
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
It's an exciting time right now - we're on the cusp of some amazing innovations and discoveries... either that or the deaths of millions... I'm betting on the innovations.
- Internet's Tad
I think that most anti nuke people need to explore it more and not let the fear seize them: http://www.wired.com/science...
- Johan
we need a 'back to the future 2' type technology, take banana peals, and other compost to power out cars.
- clarke thomas
@clarke thomas : Like so? :D http://gizmodo.com/gadgets...
- Mo Kargas
let's keep in mind that electricity comes from some other energy source, e.g., 57% in the US comes from Coal.
- nate pagel
fission is bad (not so much for the risks as for costs and waste - however good the technology you may have, spent fuel stays radioactive for 1000s of years AND uranium is estimated to run out in 75 years). Coal, Oil - awfully bad. Natural gas - slightly less bad, but still not carbon neutral. Fotovoltaic solar - ok but panels last 20 years and are made of nasty stuff. Thermal solar (ie solar furnaces), wind turbines, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectric - good, smart, renewable and carbon neutral.
- dario
our power and transportation needs aren't going to be solved without engineers, what can we collectively do to make more engineers for the next 20 years?
- make
here's saul's "solution framework" http://wattzon.org/gamepla... - google for saul griffith (TED speaker, MAKE author, amongst a million other things) -- it's a good read.
- make
We can create incentives for people to go into engineering fields. Make it a patriotic thing. Your helping to save America by becoming an engineer to help research how we can get out of this mess we're in.
- Jason Shultz
I think there are a lot of engineers in gestation - not sure they need an incentive.
- sedgewick
Engineering isn't the problem it's funding.
- Greg Folley
Time is the problem. It will take 20 years to get broad market acceptance of alternative energy
- Francine Hardaway
from twhirl
One thing we can do to encourage more folks to go into engineering is for the government to quit viewing science with suspicion. When the president of the US says things like "The courts not yet out on evolution." it just might tell kids that science is bad...
- Internet's Tad
While I would like for Solar and Nuclear to be the primary source of electricity, the fact is that we have lots and lots of cheap coal in the US and it will continue to be used extensively. So electric cars, in terms of polution, have to be viewed in terms of the source of their power. Which is usually coal. Now I'm not saying coal is eveil, but that is the source of our energy generation for the foreseeable future. At least until states become more comfortable with nuclear.
- Andrew
How long did it take for people to stop using horses? Very quickly when Ford came out with the Model T. It's about funding to build the production lines and nothing else matters. Remember the Liberty ships of WW2? Thousands were produced on VERY short notice. Same with the bombers and fighter planes. WW2 was only 4 years long for the U.S.!
- Greg Folley
Greg Folley is totally right. A massive public-private movement towards a Green Energy economy can happen with presidential leadership, and broad political agreement on the left and right. An Apollo program for Energy. Here's Saul Griffith's energy mix (what we need to build ) for 2033: http://wattzon.org/plan.... It calls for huge investments in Photo-Voltaic Solar, Solar Thermal, Wind, Geothermal and Nuclear (ideally breeder).
- Thor Muller
Forget about Apollo programs and government mandates: the company/companies that find alternative energies & vehicles more convenient & less expensive than oil will become INCREDIBLY wealthy: Rockefeller rich, Getty rich, Exxon rich. That is enough to get the job done. Just look at the VC market over the last 2 years and you can see that there are people with their eyes on the prize, and they will spend their money in a much more efficient fashion than even the cleverest bureaucrats.
- Nicholas Molnar
nuclear cars? Fark, you Americans don't do anything by halves do you ;-)
- Duncan Riley
I would, too. Especially if it were a DeLorean.
- Chris Baskind
Tell that to congress that's limiting the number of eco friendly import cars... just saying
- Mona Nomura
I love the idea of a Corvette with a cooling tower on the hood.
- Chris Baskind
Nicholas, I don't doubt that the market alone would get the job done eventually. The problem is we need it done very aggressively to combat climate change, and that's where the power of the presidential bully pulpit comes in.
- Thor Muller
Alternative energy would be needed less if people would simply allow nuclear power stations to be built in the US.
- Daniel Spisak
from twhirl
please, no nuclear - Ukraine learned hard lessons for next millions years of nuclear decay; don't be stupid to learn this in own country from own experience; and after all, nuclear is not renewable.
- A.T.
silpol: Ukraine built a lot of crappy things. That plant was an abomination.
- Robert Scoble
I know this is a bit childish but back when I played SimCity 2000, I always put my Nuclear Plants on an island or so isolated it wasn't funny. I know a lot of people who do not mind having nuclear power, as long as it's not in there backyard. We have just has this debate in Australia last year and essentially all the science was ignored except for that very fear-filled emotion. Nuclear is, at this stage, a political issue and far from a science and safety based one.
- Johnny Worthington
What about Fuel Cells?
- oregon_tony
I think the knee-jerk opposition to nuclear is starting to fade now, at last. Ten years from now, I'd like to see largely nuclear electricity, with cars and trucks running on E85 (gasoline replacement) and E95 (diesel replacement) or biodiesel. Plugin hybrids running on E85 would be great: electric for short journeys, then 1 gallon of gas for every 200 miles on long ones.
- James
A few interesting facts: US Navy has operated thousands of reactors without a single incident where radiation was released. Solar and wind production cost 7x more than cheap natural gas plants to build, but cost 100% less for fuel. Personally, I'm not sure any of this helps the climate change problem - or if it's even possible to fix that - BUT moving to nuclear/renewable will be an expensive investment that pays off as long as we don't sell our soul to corporations that will price gouge.
- Mike Seidle
I think biodiesel will win. You'd have to convince people to buy a car that costs more and is less convenient than just keeping their current ride. For electric cars to win you'd have to develop a charging standard that is as fast and convenient as filling up a petrol tank. You'd also need to work on the design of electric cars, Tesla=Lotus=cheap, nasty, weight-saving interior.
- Steven Cains
I think the real solution will be generational and require realignment of our city and highway systems. Google new urbanism for an example. Smaller cities, self-contained agriculture and businesses, connected by high speed networks and public transit.
- Andrew Leyden
here's the problem - what to do with the radioactive waste from nukes? we need cradle to cradle solutions. anything less is myopic.
- Brooke Shelby Biggs
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