Ah, it seems like this topic was already discussed here. Should have figured :) - Bindu Reddy

Another possible way to read that statement is "MS offered a boatload more money than GOOG" :). Which isn't a bad thing. I think that good engineers are underpaid in general. - Sanjeev Singh

He has a good point: when all of your products are "free", the users aren't the customers. - Gabe Schaffer

I disagree with his his code being useful only when people pay for it comment... However, I do think he has some some interesting but exaggerated points about the role of middle management/managers being very ill-defined at Google. The question is should we have any middle-mgmt in corporations and if so, how best to structure it? I am not sure I have a good answer to that question. - Bindu Reddy

Bindu: he's not saying that his code is only useful when paid for, merely that he judges its usefulness by how much people are willing to pay. That makes some sense; as a photographer I consider my best photos to be the ones people order rather than those that just get the most views on my web site. - Gabe Schaffer

He didn't say code was only useful when people paid for it. Rather, he said that the only way he knew how to *measure* the usefulness of his code was by the amount of money people were willing to pay for it. It is kind of an interesting economic question. - Karim

When I first read this post, I thought he was simply saying that Microsoft was paying him more than Google. :) - Chris White

His arguments are kind of "light". Look pretty much an afterthought. - Martin Añazco

I wonder how he came up with this observation? - "Google as an organization is not geared - culturally - to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications." - Edward Ho

Those types of statements seem like a classic case of denial by an established player being disrupted by a new competitor. They'll keep telling themselves that Google can't "deliver enterprise class reliability", and meanwhile their business will be eaten from below. (not that MS reliability is all that anyway, but obviously they think it is, and need some way to rationalize a lot of heavyweight process) - Paul Buchheit

One year seems a short time to fully understand the culture, particularly since it seems he was moved around (different projects, managers). I'm no Google fan-boy, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of there there. Seems more like he didn't like customer facing 'cool' product development. - AJ Kohn

Google is just like any other company in that it's made up of employees, many of whom have different opinions. This guy decided it wasn't the place for him. The media picks it up because they are bored with the "Google is great" stories, and are looking for some "Google sucks" stories. It's all kind of boring really. - Chris White

Not sure how much I'd pay for Gmail but I would pay heck of a lot more than for Hotmail. - Philipp Lenssen

AJ: a "customer" is somebody who buys something. I've never bought anything from Google, and neither have most of its users. Presumably this guy prefers to work on products where the customer is the user. It's like working for a cable station like Showtime instead of a commercial network like Fox. - Gabe Schaffer

That's a pretty limited view Gabe. If anything, Google cares about their users more than MS, because enterprise purchasing decisions are made by IT managers and not end users. MS is failing at search because the end users don't like their product and are continuing to abandon it. - Paul Buchheit

Paul, nobody ever said that Google cares less about customers, just that there is a fundamental difference in writing software where the user pays for it and software where the user does not pay for it. Of course a lot of MS software isn't paid for by the user because it came preloaded or was purchased by their employer, but somebody is still paying for it. In this guy's mind, that means it's good. I certainly care more about which of my photos get the most orders versus which get the most views. - Gabe Schaffer

@Gabe: I don't agree with your definition of a customer being someone who buys something. Blog readers are customers. You are a customer of FriendFeed. If you get utility out of a product, you are a customer. The strength of that relationship could be marked by how much you pay, but you are a customer nonetheless IMO. - AJ Kohn

Gabe, you personally may feel differently based on who pays, but what matters the most in product terms is who chooses, not who pays, because that is the person who has to be satisfied. For Google and Apple, the end user chooses the product, and for MS it's typically someone in IT, and that reality is reflected in their product decisions. - Paul Buchheit

Ideas are like good people. The Right People have good ideas , that needs to fit into the ideology of a corporation. Just like right people need to fit into the right culture. There is the fine difference between good and right.. watch the words and the way that we think about such things.. its important :)- - Peter Dawson

Paul, I think you are right when you say it sounds like "Innovator's Dilemma" denial, but I'm not sure the reliability observation should be dismissed on those grounds. I still think ISPs that have an older telco background (e.g. Verizon) have much better reliability cultures than those that don't (e.g. Comcast). While Google services have always been very reliable for me, I've also seen more than one FF thread in the last few days from people having problems with them... That *can* matter. - Karim

That *can* matter. - @Karim - it will matter when yo pay for it .. till then it really does not pinch its just an inconvenience only - Peter Dawson

I don't know about yours, AJ, but my dictionary defines customer as "One that buys goods or services." I consider myself to be a FriendFeed user, or possibly consumer or patron -- but definitely not a customer. This guy's problem with Google is that while their products (a few of them) are highly popular, they are not highly valuable. He wants to work on a product that has measurable value, so he has to work for some place that charges for their products. Maybe one day micropayments will become easy and I can pay Google per search, but in the mean time Google isn't that valuable to me. - Gabe Schaffer

@Gabe: Dictionary version of customer is too narrow. Splitting hairs on user, consumer, patron IMO. Should I assume that you'll no longer use Google search or Gmail or anything else that is free? I view value as the utility you derive from that product, not strictly purchases of goods and services. Clean air is valuable, any of the free search engines are valuable. Wouldn't the logical extension of your argument be to equate value of a profession to salary. I find teachers valuable, but not based on salary. - AJ Kohn

The definition may be splitting hairs, but to this guy it's an important distinction. He didn't want to work at Google anymore in part because he wanted to work for a company that sells a product to its users (which by definition makes them customers). It doesn't mean that he didn't want to work on user-facing products; it means that he wanted to work on paying-user-facing products. And I use Google's products particularly because they have no value (i.e. they're free). - Gabe Schaffer

Okay, I totally grok that Google may be a good job fit for some, not for others (and so, too, Microsoft). But this value/no-value thing has me totally confuzzled. Dude, Gabe... if products have "no value" then why on earth would you use them? Clearly they have value to YOU, and clearly they have value to Google, or Google wouldn't offer them. This isn't radical new think, it's just different types of value! :-) - Adam Lasnik

He says Google produces products that wastes people's time and he then goes on to use it to explain the rationale behind one of the important decisions of his life. Yeah, right!! Also, with his philosophy, he can only work at Microsoft and nowhere else. - Krish

Are people really lining up now? Please tell me that's not true. I want to believe in the human race - Doug Haslam via twhirl

new generation of hippies - Susan Beebe

I could make a cynical comment about American consumerism and groupthink, but....... :P (seriously, I wonder if many folks will line up days in advance for *phones* in other countries) - Adam Lasnik

only idiots in New York. We are in Valley Fair and there aren't any lines here. - Robert Scoble

I won't wait in line for a week even if my family plays football with real madrid - directeur via NoiseRiver

Adam: Maybe a soup or breadphone from Apple. /smirk - Eric Rice

eh ? did not MYspace - TOS forbid children below 14yrs of age to have an account ? Secondly, if I may recollection serves me, the person responsable is actually the parent(s) !! -- not sure, can any1 confirm this 'hearsay' ? - Peter Dawson

LOL TOS. Hahaha! They aren't doing ID checks to make sure people under 14 aren't on myspace. I don't know about you but a large part of my personal teenage existence was getting away with stuff that my parents either didn't like or didn't know about. - Erica Baker

"(a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; (b) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; (c) you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the MySpace Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 14 years of age." http://www1.myspace.com/index.... - Peter Dawson

Right. That's why 12 year olds lie and say they're 20 (like my niece did). - Erica Baker

Erica, the point in making is that if something foul happens to your niece , parental responsibility kicks in. They become accountable for the actions of the kid/daughter. Albeit, as I have delivered the above facts, you too have become an accomplish to these misdemeanor's :)- - Peter Dawson

Uh what something foul are you talking about? I'm talking about little girls being snarky, posting inappropriate photos etc... - Erica Baker

LOL, I suppose how many accounts does she have? And back in my day Playboy magazine was only for 18+. Uh huh, surrrrre. Don't be an accomplish. /smirk. - Eric Rice

Comes with the territory. Greg Linden has a nice post on press cycles (http://glinden.blogspot.com/20...) - Deepak

And for good reason, mostly self "inflicted", Google will always be held to a higher standard, - Deepak

IMHO, this is a case of a whole lot of wrongs. I'm not proud of the way this situation has been handled by EMG, I'm upset by the fact that some info was leaked from an internal meeting (TGIF) on Valleywag, and I've lost a bit more respect for the NY Times after reading that lopsidedly hysterical editorial. In the end, everybody's losing here, nothing to be happy about :-(. - Adam Lasnik

+1 to Adam's point. - Josh

These stories about google as a company really bore me. - minus3

"... that he was tired of “Googlers” who felt entitled to perks like “bottled water and M&Ms,” according to several people in the meeting ..." So if the NYT has several sources on this as they say, and a Google spokesman denies this, then someone's lying (either Google, or the reporter, or the people in the meeting). To better judge how well this piece was written it seems important to know who lied here. - Philipp Lenssen

Once upon a time it was perfectly acceptable for apartments/condos to specify that they were "adults only". Had not so many developers become greedy and abused this privilege, these kinds of places would still exist and people like me -- and the parents who get tired of the complaints -- would be a lot happier. - Cecily Walker

I was a be seen and not heard if unappropriate or get my ears boxed or backside slapped child. Louder children today, you say? hmm - Michael W. May via twhirl

Michael, that's how I was raised as well. Sometimes I'm surprised by what parents let their kids get away with. I was spanked, but rarely - all my mom had to do was give me "the look" and I knew to behave. - Cecily Walker

*nod* Rarely needed that spank myself. The Voice and The Look worked well, but without knowing what came after, I doubt they would have. - Michael W. May via twhirl

This is more an issue of parenting than anything. I think parents are afraid to actually raise their children anymore. They're far too interested in being their child's friend than teaching them expected social behavior. </rant> - Kyle Hebert

I agree with Kyle, so many of today's parents simply don't take parenting seriously and it impacts ALL of us, not just noise, but behavior, education, manners, responsibility, etc. And there are far better ways (in fact wildly more effective) than corporal punishment. If you're not willing to really be a parent, then don't have kids. - AJ Kohn

@ajkohn care to elaborate on "better ways than ..." ? ;) - silpol

@silpol: Set expectations. Treat them as a human being, not some substandard adult knockoff (aka - they're smarter than they think), use time outs and naughty rug, follow-through on your warnings/threats (aka - do that again and we leave the park, they do it again, you MUST leave), make sure they have enough sleep and good food, take every opportunity to teach. - AJ Kohn

I could go on, but in the end, is it acceptable for an adult to scream like a banshee? No. Then it isn't for a child. When an adult does do this, do you go up and hit them? No. Then you don't for a child. - AJ Kohn

The only time screaming kids really annoy me is when I'm having a late dinner at a nice restaurant (say, 9 - 11pm) and there is a screaming toddler. Either that restaurant needs to adopt a curfew for kids, or the parents should know better. - J. Phil

Have to agree with most here. This is a parenting issue. On the weekends my wife and I prefer an early dinner out. At 5PM a mostly empty restaurant and they seat us next to the table with three kids standing on their chairs making a racket. The staff should also know better. We asked to be seated somewhere else and I think they were upset with us. My kids are 19 and 20 I can assure you they never acted like that in a public place. - Kevin Shannon

And I must add, we never hit our kids, we just took the time needed to teach them the right way to behave. - Kevin Shannon

I don't understand parents who push their screaming kids on others. Both Patrick and Milan only screamed when they needed something. Usually their problems are easy to solve. Bottle. Diapers. Etc. But if they were having a temper tantrum for some reason I sure wouldn't keep them in a restaurant where they could destroy someone else's experience. They would get a quick walk outside, to demonstrate that they need to care about other people's feelings too. - Robert Scoble

We brought our kids to FL this week and they were pretty good. I usually buy a round of drinks for the people around us on the plane, in anticipation of our noisy kids though. :-) - Steven M. Cohen

Hmm. Kids being loud = bad parenting? I think that is a stretch. Now I can understand this line of thinking if parents don't even try to keep kids in line, but occasionally kids are just loud. I agree with Robert that overly fussy kids should be removed from public situations to calm down. I have spent more nights in a hotel not sleeping due to drunk adults than noisy children... - Sean Brady

@Sean: Perhaps drunk adults were raised by parents who accepted noisy children and didn't teach them to be respectful of other people? - AJ Kohn

@Sean Not a stretch. The amount of unruly children in public and parents who let them be that way now compared to 20 years ago is sadly greater. That speaks to parenting and social norms. - Michael W. May

Well, the architects I know say that it is very easy to skimp on the acoustic separation between units. Building codes and unit design will become a bigger deal as the world population becomes increasingly urbanized. That having been said, I think that lower birth rates have made people less tolerant of children. - Steve Lynch

@ajkohn you went no further (so far) than local Finnish leaflet on parenting, yet it is not enough - _my_ kids do every sure thing to test limits till infinite and it takes me often effort to avoid going "short path" (read - body punishment)... and yes, I do time to time those old tricks from my military past just to avoid being too harsh - some of them true evil, but no physical touch or mental push, just "disziplin über alles" - silpol

@Sean Let me qualify. Kids being loud is natural. Kids allowed to be loud in public places where parents make no attempt to quiet them or teach them it's wrong - That's bad parenting. I sat at dinner 2 weeks ago for 20 minutes with a kid singing a song, walking around the table, while the parents and friends had an after coffee conversation. They encouraged the child telling them how cute the song was. Never once telling the child to sit and be quite... or just getting up to leave.since they were done! - Kevin Shannon

So I have a related question .. is there a rise of no-kids restaurants springing up? As for the apartment issue -- agreed with Cecily, new apartments could be made a lot more sound and vibration dampened to be attractive to young families. - J. Phil

@Phil I have not seen any NO KID places here on LI. When my kids were young we would take them to Friendlies, McDonald's, Nathan's, Chucky Cheese. I didn't really want to eat there but hey, we had kids and that's what we had to do. I don't frequent fancy places, Outback, Charlie Brown's medium priced steak houses. They seem to be the place people with 3 and 4 year olds go now. If I take my kids (19 and 20) to Outback were looking at $120. I'd like to enjoy that without kids running around my table. - Kevin Shannon

Ok we were all kids once...fricking awesome kids of course, and well I think the fairy tale that children are to be seen and not heard is very yesterday. WOW what an elitist thing to say..I mean they are PEOPLE not dogs. Crazy statement. - tanya

Tanya, I can only speak for myself, but I did say the only time I was annoyed was at a nice restaurant, and after 8pm. I do not begrudge kids being kids. I don't like screaming kids in R-rated movies either, but even that I will forgive faster than issue #1. As for the original discussion about families in apartments.. meh, what are you going to do? - J. Phil

@Tanya Can't tell what comments are setting you off. Well behaved children is not a fairy tale. I have two of them. I think parents today find it easier to argue that it's impossible instead of admitting that they may be causing the problem. Take a look at "Nanny 911". A crazy show but it drives home the point week after week that it's not the kids it's the parents. I love children and have spent many years working with them, Magic, Cub Scouts, Baseball. I have no problem with kids. - Kevin Shannon

@Tanya Not sure about the statement, kids are people not dogs. If you buy a dog and take no time training it and teaching it what's right and wrong it will be out of control. Kids are kinda the same. Take no time to parent and see what you wind up with. - Kevin Shannon

Don't assume just because a child is behaving in a way that annoys you, that it's because the parent isn't doing his or her job. The parent may not agree with you about the best way to parent a child. That's just one of the risks we take in living in communities with other people -- we might sometimes have to deal with others whose values or priorities are different from our own. - nathan

Had to be my statement, which alluded to the the way I was brought up, which included my grandparents preaching that old saying, "be seen and not heard" when noisy children were inappropriate. Those words implied or else and we understood that. Same as my mother's look or tone implied it. And btw, I was far from a fairytale child and yet, even with all this, I still grew up with constant love and respect for those elders. - Michael W. May

@nathan I would NEVER assume a child behaving badly was automatically a parenting issue. And after re-reading my comments I don't think I said that. That's why I gave very specific examples. When a parent lets a child mis-behave for an extended period of time doesn't say a word and doesn't have any care about other people around them, that's bad parenting and also shows they do not respect living in a community. I have never said anything to a parent with a mis-behaving child. I play well in community. - Kevin Shannon

the way I play with my children is one that is not quiet. I would try to ensure it would be at a level that would not bug me if I were them, but I sound more forgiving. - RAPatton

@Kevin Shannon I guess my point is that your idea of misbehaving and another person's might not be the same. I put a very high premium on my kids' acting civil and respectful towards adults, and i don't typically take them to places where "childish" behavior would be disruptive, but at the same time I know how hard it is to quiet an ebullient toddler, say, in a grocery store or something. Now that I've got kids of my own I tend to withhold judgment of other parents. - nathan

@nathan Totally agree. I was where you are 20 years ago. A toddler having a tantrum in the grocery store is no reflection of a parents skills. God knows if it did then I would have to admit to being a bad parent. And for every example I offered to the extreme, we've had situations where we sat next to very well behaved kids... I give them credit too. You sound like me and my wife, we gave up fancier dinners during the years our kids were young. I kind of miss Chucky Cheese. - Kevin Shannon

I'm nervous about this very issue because I'm taking my wife and two kids to NYC for three weeks this month. We are not exactly a quiet family, used to living in our own house for the past decade or so. I read the article, and the behavior that they are complaining about is normal kid behavior -- getting up in the middle of the night, walking down the hall, playing with toys. I'll admit it would suck to buy a place for $1M+ that comes with the sound of a baby crying. - Todd Nemet

I wouldn't say it's automatically a reflection on the parent but, if you take a toddler to a restaurant and don't bring stickers and crayons or something to do and instead let them jump around and scream ... I will judge you. I just don't buy the 'kids are just noisy' stuff. It's the worst kind of stereotype. Kids should be kids. Be loud at the park playing, or when having a tickle fight. But there's a time for an 'inside voice'. If you expect it, you will get it. - AJ Kohn

Wow, this article hit a nerve, eh? :) I think many of us are in agreement here, and I also suspect that the vast majority (if not all) the parents on this thread are the sort of parents I appreciate and respect. I totally get that kids will be kids. But when they ARE acting up, I believe it's the parents' responsibility to take appropriate action... not only with their kids directly (setting an example, enforcing time-outs, etc.) but -- of more selfish importance -- minimizing the negative impact on others - Adam Lasnik

This means, for instance, taking the kid outside (of the restaurant, theatre, etc.). I've also been tempted to ask parents "could you kindly take your kid outside?" on airplanes, too, but that's a bit more problematic, admittedly. - Adam Lasnik

Don't get me started on the subject of child discipline. I've read it all from The Old Testament to Alfie Kohn. As American adolescence extends into the 30s, I see people who are intolerant of children until parenthood and then become incredibly indulgent of their children once they become parents. The article indicated that about half of the complains were unfounded, and half were valid. The real story is the lack of conflict resolution skills in these so-called adults. - Todd Nemet

Nice article. Thanks for sharing it. I've actually thought that this problem should be quite unique to Russia with it's small flats, large cities, thick walls and rude people. - Andrey Ivanov

I do prohibit my child from running around the house after 9pm and do not let him scream too much in public but even here in Russia where people are more antisocial, strict and rude than in nearby Europe everyone is sane enough not to complain about the babies crying at night so no sympathy for some of the "baby noise victims" the article mentiones. - Andrey Ivanov