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theComplex › Comments

theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"What does her popularity with black women have to do with what I said about her? Nothing." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
""A cartoon of a female dog turned brainless flapper girl was actually black! It's a celebration, bitches!" What exactly are you celebrating?" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Well I'm not Asian so that just totally bursts your little pseudo-intellectual bubble. LOL." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"I think you are confused and arguing for argument's sake. Paramount was able to prove two things: 1) Paramount actress Clara Bow had the same look (style of dress and hair) as Helen/Betty Boop and 2) the "baby" singing style was Baby Esther's. That hair style was popular and Max had never seen Esther perform until years into the suit. He created Betty Boop as a caricature of Helen who stole the singing style of Esther. This is clear. Yet you seem to want to be able to skip all of the details to say "Betty Boop was black!" even though the story is more complex than that. I realize that it's empowering to tell this story but "A cartoon of a bimbo was black! Yay!" isn't exactly uplifting. Also, the photos of Olya prove that you can style a woman to look like a popular chracter and that the photo studio takes really great vintage photography, which you can see in their gallery. There's tons of it along with Olya's Betty Boop. The same gallery clearly displays Olya's name and who she..." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"I hadn't written it yet lol." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Lol. It's the American way! Ideally, Paramount should have had to pay the both and then Helen should have had to pay Esther." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Well summed up. Even without Esther's audio we know why Kane lost her case." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"You're 100% right and there's no way to deny this exploitation. We're both invisible and hyper-visible at the same time and we're still struggling to control our narratives. And I definitely could have brought up several recent appropriations, such as Miley twerking. That could have been more comprehensive. Oddly, I notice even some black women are more accepting of white girls twerking as long as it isn't "low-class" "ghetto" "ratchet" aka "poor black women" doing it. Too many of us have internalized this aversion to each other. And those who are fighting that self-hatred are eager to break the cycle by any means... sometimes also detrimental means. Perhaps it's nitpicky to prefer that instead of saying "Betty Boop was black" we say "Betty Boop's vocal styling was inspired by a black woman." But that's where my intent was." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Appreciate your perspective." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"WRONG. The cartoon you are referring to clearly shows Betty Boop darkened up to be Hawaiian." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"The title that was visible from search engines for HelloBeautiful's post clearly stated "Betty Boop Was Black." This, more than anything I'd seen the day this went viral, was troubling. For the very reason that most people rarely even read further than a headline, the statement is problematic. That said, I understand that any group of people who are marginalized, denied full historical context, and who have their societal contributions constantly either stolen or demonized or both, will latch onto any opportunity to celebrate their history. It just frustrates me that so few people care to think twice about what they are latching onto." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"This shouldn't be this complicated. Esther did not and could not rise to Michael Jackson's acclaim so even comparing the two is silly. You could create a character in a ghost outfit, give it MJ's voice and mannerisms and people will know who it is a copy of immediately. The same is unfortunately not true for Esther. Furthermore, the loss of the suit proved that Esther's "singing style" got jacked. Not likeness. Not mannerisms. Betty Boop was created as a female dog caricature of a white woman who stole a "singing style" from a black woman. She later transforms from a female dog to a bimbo. I wonder how flattered Esther would be. Lastly, submit photos of what?" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Wow... thank you for sharing all of that but I don't really care. But out of curiosity, what specific traits do you think make me "look Asian"? And are you 100% sure that only Asians have those attributes? As for the commenter I was responding to I would prefer they explain what they meant by the question... Though I hope it's not rooted in bitterness over being denied Betty fucking Boop... a cartoon... of a "brainless flapper girl."" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"There's a link to the photography studio's website. Maybe you missed it. Also, the real "fact" you are ignoring is that the lawsuit was lost when it was found that Helen stole Esther's "singing style," not exact look... not exact mannerisms... singing style." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
""Based on a black woman" is not the same as "is/was black." I have issue with the latter phrase. And had it been a cartoon of a black female dog instead of a white one in 1930, it would eventually have gotten banned. Lol." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"I haven't seen one person debate whether or not Esther was copied from, as that is fact, so I couldn't possible have asserted myself as any kind of authority on the matter. Also, it'd probably be easier to drop if I didn't have all these fun new people to keep the discussion going." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Is Betty Boop the exact image of Esther or the exact image of Helen trying to copy Esther? There's a difference. The lawsuit was lost because of the singing style, not mannerisms, not exact imagery. Max Fleischer originally created as a female dog character that poked fun at Helen Kane. Do you really not see that? Or are you just willing to cling to anything of notoriety... even if the imagery is unflattering?" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Well I asked for a specific source because you can come across several threads of people speculating over what they allege happened, and sometimes making up stuff up along the way." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Yes, you clearly missed a lot but I'm glad the page you saw the photo on was not as misleading as others." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Lol but no amount of stealing black music would make Elvis black though, so..." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
""The cartoon would then be of an impersonator who is trying to be JUST LIKE the original Michael Jackson." That would be mean that a MJ look-a-like would have to become more famous than MJ, which isn't going to happen. Also, if you name a character MJ and add MJ's creative attributes, people would figure out who the character is created after. So... none of that works at all. Sorry." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Oh wow, where did you find this info?" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Well I guess this also depends on how you see Betty Boop because it was perfectly acceptable to make buffoonish caricatures of black people and natives in the 30s and put them on TV. But Betty, who started out as dog, was a "brainless flapper girl." That didn't exactly show women, or black women in a positive light. It would have been perfect time to show Betty Boop, the negro brainless flapper girl, no? Also, we'd then have to find proof that Max Fleischer had known of Esther before being sued by Helen. But again, today, if someone made a cartoon of a little white girl that goes from pop princess to a wanna-be twerk queen, she's still a little white girl that wants to twerk like some black women can, and thinks that twerking sums up black womanliness." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Pretty sure all of this was included above. Thanks!" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Lol, that's not Google's "laziness" that's the secondary title that site editors use specifically for search engines. She didn't analyze anything. With reasonable excitement, she, like many others, reposted a photo from Tumblr and added the background of Helen Kane's lawsuit. Analysis would have resulted in finding that the photo is not of Esther Jones." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Dope! The Periodic Table of Hip-hop by Pop Chart Lab & A3C - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"If you go to popchartlab.com/products/the-p... you can see details." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"All great questions and I was wondering the same!" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Dope! The Periodic Table of Hip-hop by Pop Chart Lab & A3C - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"I know! I gotta get one!" - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"The headline via Google: http://www.sinuousmag.com/wp-c..." - theComplex
theComplex
Re: Photo: This is NOT Esther Jones and Betty Boop Was Not Black - http://www.sinuousmag.com/2014...
"Aside from the comments on Tumblr, Facebook, Twitter, forums, and conversations with people over the years, the title of Hello Beautiful's article: "Betty Boop Was Black."" - theComplex
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