This question was just posed by @almightygod: "Why are so many Christians ashamed to quote this verse: Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... The whole Bile is perfect, right?
*note: yes I do recognize it's just a lil bit weird that I tweet with god :)* I replied: "B/c http://is.gd/99Rla is hate speech. Despite what religion you believe, when you incite violence against another it is wrong." ~ So is the Bible perfect? Am I right to call this verse as much? Do Christians really believe the sentiments of this verse? Where does love thy neighbour/the Mt. of Olives Jesus enter in? Is this, at least in good part, where the right-wing religious sentiment opposing gay marriage comes in? Inasmuch my response was an indictment of such precepts as I believe he was encouraging Christians to not be ashamed to quote as much. Am I wrong? Can anyone please educate me to the proper way? #doanybodyno
- The Real sofarsoShawn
The bible also says "Suffer not a witch to live." Right? I thought, though, that Jesus' "New Covenant" or whatever, effectively wiped out a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament. No more Eye for an Eye, etc. If you want to really pick on Christians, pick apart the stuff that Jesus said. It'll be a bit more difficult to find awful stuff.
- iTad
Until you people understand that there's an oral Torah as well as a written one, you make nothing but fools of yourself when you go off on a shit like this.
- Akiva
Well, under the Mosaic law there were a lot of stiff penalties. Christ fulfilled the law and we now live under grace. However, the NT still lists those who practice homosexuality among those who "will not inherit the kingdom." So, yes, it is still a sin, but as Christ did, we love the sinners without condoning sin, that by our witness we might save some.
- Kevin L
So please explain to me how "Thou shalt not kill" only applies when you're not conquering nations or getting out the gays.
- LarchOye
The commandment was against murder, as many scholars will clarify. Why did He choose to use Israel to destroy other nations? Well, why did He use Babylon and others to nearly destroy Israel? Sometimes God uses people to His own ends, directly or indirectly. And the death penalty was given right along side the 5th commandment. "Love your neighbor" doesn't mean letting them get away with murder.
- Kevin L
Winckel, I would submit that the Scriptures have been misused and abused. Yes, terrible things have been done by those who claim to follow it, but terrible things have been done by atheists, too, and people of every kind of religion. This goes to show that humans are thoroughly depraved, as the Bible says. Look, the topic here was about that verse against homosexuality, and it was my intention to show that it's consistent with teachings of grace. It's a sin that keeps us from God, just as any sin would.
- Kevin L
I'm still trying to find atrocities committed in the name of atheism that aren't actually atrocities committed in the name of nationalism or racism. I don't think killing in the name of nothing happens all that often.
- Rob H.
What part of 'not getting into it' do you not understand, Christopher? I mean, you can chase me from one thread to the next in hopes that I play patty-cake with you on this but you seem to be mistaking me for a Christian. I'm Jewish. I don't care what you think. The laws of Torah are not meant for you. You don't have to accept them. There's a wonderful saying: It is better to be a...
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- Akiva
kingdom of heaven is within, is another one no christian will fess up to
- Gregory Lent
much respect for your last comment, Akiva
- Michael W. May
I'm trying to understand what the Torah has do with Christians.
- Andy Bakun
Christopher, calm down. You should focus on these two statements: 'I'm not Christian' and 'The laws of Torah are not meant for you.' You should start there.
- Akiva
I don't care to retract anything. You see, you mistake me for someone who cares what you think. You seem to think I have something to prove to you. Boy are you wrong.
- Akiva
Christopher, what are you really on about here? Are you really open-minded, wondering if I could say something that would truly change your mind about what you believe? Or are you simply someone who feels that he has someone else cornered, daring him—no, double-dog daring him—to provide some kind of answer that satisfies some pre-defined condition that you came into this conversation...
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- Akiva
No, Christopher, not for you. I have nothing to offer for you. For you in particular, I have nothing to offer.
- Akiva
Awwwww. Well, here's your scorecard, man. Feel free to pencil in your victory!
- Akiva
I know. I figured that was your intent from the beginning. I'm not new to this rodeo.
- Akiva
It's about intent. You see, there are two kinds of people that get involved in these kinds of conversations: those who are earnestly interested in a discussion and those who want to simply push their agendas. It was apparent early on that you don't give a shit about what I think. From my perspective, it seemed as if you just wanted to guide the conversation to a specific point whereupon...
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- Akiva
And, seriously, you need to stop confounding Christianity with Judaism. If you're going to attack Jews, at least be educated about it.
- Akiva
You're assuming too much. Christopher, I initially had full respect of your motivations. I didn't instantly disqualify you because you took up an opposite position; I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Hell, I'm a religious Jew on a service that is practically legendary in its intolerance of religion. But, over two different threads, you went after me and even then I gave you space...
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- Akiva
Oh, poor Christopher, I don't care that you're not satisfied with the answers you've been given. I've answered your question. More than once even. Your dissatisfaction with that answer has nothing to do with me. And, for the record, I never once offered to 'ameliorate' Leviticus 20:13. That's your word, not mine.
- Akiva
Christopher, c'mon now. Are you that bored? I've already moved on! How many times and in how many ways can I express what I've already expressed to you? It is not my fault that you are so ate up with your own bias that you cannot see it! Shall I hold you hand? Rise up, Christopher, and rise up again! Realize that you've been mildly trolled. Would it make you feel better if I shouted...
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- Akiva
And you're quite talented with selective reading. But, seriously, you're a good kisser all right.
- Akiva
Leave it along? Not sure what you mean here.
- Akiva
Oh. 'alone'. Clearly you don't know me at all. And again, I stress—and tiredly so—that just because you don't get the answers that satisfy you doesn't mean that your question wasn't answered.
- Akiva
That's a very Christian view of Judaism but it's not correct as far as actual Judaism goes. It's best put like this: how can G-d expect us to be human and then demand us do things that are repugnant to that very humanity? It's because G-d relies on our compassion and our humanity—the very fabric that makes us what we are—to find other ways to fulfill the law. 'A tooth for a tooth, an...
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- Akiva
Akiva, where can I read about the Oral Torah online? I've never heard of it and would like to know more. Thanks :o)
- ☆ Mellyboo ☆
Hadn't forgot about this I want to thank all you guys for taking part in the thread Akiva, Christopher, Goadkicker et al. This was an awesome discussion and dare I say civilized discussion on FriendFeed on RELIGION!!! :). I've got this sucker bookmarked!
- The Real sofarsoShawn
The power of prayer has long been controversial, but a new study in a leading psychological journal finds some of the first scientific evidence that it truly works - at least on the person doing the praying.
- Shey
from Bookmarklet
I knew that without the study, but right on.
- Josh Haley
From the Associated Press: ""The questions of life's origins and of whether life exists elsewhere in the universe are very suitable and deserve serious consideration," said the Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, an astronomer and director of the Vatican Observatory. Funes, a Jesuit priest, presented the results Tuesday of a five-day conference that gathered astronomers, physicists, biologists and other experts to discuss the budding field of astrobiology — the study of the origin of life and its existence elsewhere in the cosmos. Funes said the possibility of alien life raises "many philosophical and theological implications" but added that the gathering was mainly focused on the scientific perspective and how different disciplines can be used to explore the issue. Chris Impey, an astronomy professor at the University of Arizona, said it was appropriate that the Vatican would host such a meeting."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From CNN: "The Vatican said Tuesday it has worked out a way for groups of Anglicans who are dissatisfied with their faith to join the Catholic Church. The process will enable groups of Anglicans to become Catholic and recognize the pope as their leader, yet have parishes that retain Anglican rites, Vatican officials said. The move comes some 450 years after King Henry VIII broke from Rome and created the Church of England, forerunner of the Anglican Communion. The parishes would be led by former Anglican clergy -- including those who are married -- who would be ordained as Catholic priests, said the Rev. James Massa, ecumenical director of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From the Daily Mail: "The revalation came to Professor Andrew Parker during a visit to Rome. He was in the Sistine Chapel, gazing up at Michelangelo's awesome ceiling paintings, when a realisation struck him with dizzying force. 'A Biblical enigma exists that is on the one hand so cryptic it has remained camouflaged for millennia, and on the other so obvious one cannot miss it.' The enigma is that the order of Creation as described in the Book of Genesis, and so powerfully depicted in the Sistine Chapel by the greatest artist of the Renaissance, has been precisely, eerily confirmed by modern evolutionary science."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
"In the Book of Genesis, God first and most famously creates heaven and earth, but 'without form', and commands: 'Let there be light.' A perfect description of the Big Bang, that founding moment of our universe some 13 billion years ago, an unimaginable explosion of pure energy and matter 'without form' out of nothing - the primordial Biblical 'void'. He then creates the dry land out of...
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- Mark Trapp
"On the third day, we are told: 'God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."' Now factually speaking, grass didn't evolve until much later. In the Triassic and Jurassic epochs, the dinosaurs knew only plants such as giant conifers and tree ferns. But since...
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- Mark Trapp
"On the fourth day, Genesis famously becomes confusing. On the first day, remember, God has already created light, and made Day and Night. But it isn't until day four that he makes the lights in heaven, the greater light to rule the day and the lesser the night. Hang on - so he made 'Day' three days before he made the Sun? Houston, I think we have a problem. Yet the writers of Genesis...
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- Mark Trapp
"Until the first creatures on earth evolved eyes, in a sense, the sun and moon didn't exist. There was no creature on earth to see them, nor the light they cast. When Genesis says: 'Let there be lights... To divide the day from the night,' it is talking about eyes. 'The very first eye on earth effectively turned on the lights for animal behaviour,' writes Professor Parker, 'and...
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- Mark Trapp
"For on the very next day of Creation, the fifth day: 'God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life."' That is exactly what happened. Life that had hitherto been lived in the dark, by simple, slow-moving, worm-like creatures, erupted into dazzling diversity. We know all about it from the world famous Burgess Shale fossils."
- Mark Trapp
"So what should we make of the extraordinary findings of The Genesis Enigma? Professor Parker is clear on this subject. 'It would be a great shame if my findings were either misused in an attempt to suggest that scientists themselves are unsure about science, or pounded out of all recognition into support of the seven-day creation premise.' There is no doubt that literal-minded...
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- Mark Trapp
From BBC News: "The Pope has called for reform of the United Nations and financial bodies, giving them the "real teeth" needed to tackle economic and social injustice. Benedict XVI said the blind pursuit of profit and economic mismanagement had "wreaked havoc" on the global economy. The market, said the Pope, must not become the place where the strong prevail over the weak. His encyclical letter said a reformed UN should strive for disarmament, food security and environmental protection. An encyclical letter is the highest form of papal teaching, says the BBC's David Willey in Rome. This letter, Caritas in Veritate, or Charity in Truth, is his third since being made Pope in 2005. It is the first to focus on social issues, and follows two on spiritual matters."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From WorldNetDaily: "The patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia says he will announce to the world Friday the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant, perhaps the world's most prized archaeological and spiritual artifact, which he says has been hidden away in a church in his country for millennia, according to the Italian news agency Adnkronos. Abuna Pauolos, in Italy for a meeting with Pope Benedict XVI this week, told the news agency, "Soon the world will be able to admire the Ark of the Covenant described in the Bible as the container of the tablets of the law that God delivered to Moses and the center of searches and studies for centuries." The announcement is expected to be made at 2 p.m. Italian time from the Hotel Aldrovandi in Rome. Pauolos will reportedly be accompanied by Prince Aklile Berhan Makonnen Haile Sellassie and Duke Amedeo D'Acosta."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
This has been one of the most likely claims to the final location of the Ark of the Covenant, but they've kept it locked up for over 2,000 years. I can't wait to find out what they've been hiding.
- Mark Trapp
From the New York Times: "IN April, Bob Sweeney’s son, Ryan, 13, suddenly announced he wanted to start going to church. While Mr. Sweeney had been quite religious once — in his 20s he’d taken an oath of celibacy with plans to spend his life as a Roman Catholic brother — he’d stopped attending church 40 years ago, and he and his wife had raised their son without religion. “I said O.K., fine,” Mr. Sweeney recalled, assuming this was a whim. “We let the conversation end without coming to conclusions or decisions.” But later that week, on the ride home from middle school, Ryan said, “You know what we’re doing this weekend, Dad?” “No,” Mr. Sweeney said, figuring he had forgotten one of his son’s track meets. “We’re going to church,” Ryan said."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
I love Deacon Greg's (http://deacbench.blogspot.com/2009...) comment, "These crazy youngsters. You do your best to raise a non-believing secular humanist and he just turns around and goes all Presbyterian on you."
- Mark Trapp
From the Associated Press via the Deacon's Bench: "Christianity's largest ecumenical movement expressed hope Thursday that churches were moving closer to a common Easter for the world's Christians, despite a historical debate nearly as old as the religion. Catholic and Protestant congregations will celebrate their belief in Jesus' resurrection on the same day as Orthodox churches in 2010 and 2011 because of a coincidence in the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The common holiday has happened three times this decade. But the World Council of Churches says consensus is emerging that these should not just be occasional occurrences. At a recent meeting in Lviv, Ukraine, theologians representing nearly the breadth of Christianity agreed in principle on a strategy for all the faithful to continue observing their feast together."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From New Scientist: "WHAT is the difference between Jesus Christ and Superman? The content of religions and popular tales is often similar, but only religions have martyrs, according to an analysis of behavioural evolution published this week. When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers - even young children - quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment. "Nobody takes a day off to worship Superman or gives money to the Superman Foundation," points out Joseph Henrich, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. The more costly the behaviour, the more likely it is to be sincere: few would willingly give their life for an ideal they did not believe in, and devotees who take vows of poverty or...
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- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
"The hypothesis still needs to be tested, for example with lab experiments on belief transmission, and historical studies of religions. But if Henrich is right, churches that liberalise their behavioural codes may be sabotaging themselves by reducing their followers' commitment. This may explain why strict evangelical Christian churches are expanding in the US at the expense of...
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- Mark Trapp
In Kingdom Come their is the Church of Superman, I realize that is not in continuity, but that should still in count as evidence in an intellectual journal, right?
- RAPatton
And Superman *did* die when battling Doomsday... it's all coming together.
- Mark Trapp
He did come to earth in a space craft that wasn't unlike Moses on the Nile
- RAPatton
And Jor El did send his only begotten son so that he would not perish but have eternal life under the yellow sun.
- Mark Trapp
An Open Letter to The Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate, 1520
by Martin Luther - http://www.iclnet.org/pub...
"Again, [Aristotle's] book on Ethics is the worst of all books. It flatly opposes divine grace and all Christian virtues, and yet it is considered one of his best works. Away with such books! Keep them away from all Christians! Let no one accuse me of exaggeration, or of condemning what I do not understand! My dear friend, I know well whereof I speak. I know my Aristotle as well as you or the likes of you. I have lectured on him and heard lectures on him, and I understand him better than do St. Thomas or Scotus. This I can say without pride, and if necessary I can prove it. I care not that so many great minds have wearied themselves over him for so many hundred years. Such objections do not disturb me as once they did; for it is plain as day that other errors have remained for even more centuries in the world and in the universities."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
It's interesting that he spends most of the first part of the work expounding all the ways he hates Aristotle, but doesn't provide a cogent argument as to why: relying instead on his own experience in reading it and imploring the reader to accept him as a better authority than Thomas Aquinas and Scotus.
- Mark Trapp
"The churn within American religion—about half of American adults have changed their faith affiliation at some point—was one of the key findings of a major study released last year by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life; today, the Pew Forum is releasing a new study that attempts to explore the reasons why Americans change denominations or religions, or, increasingly, drop out of institutional religion altogether. Among the most striking findings are that most people who change their religious affiliation leave the denomination in which they were raised by age 24, and many change religious affiliation more than once. And the study found that the growing population of unaffiliated Americans are more disenchanted with institutionalized religion than with the idea of God. But the differences between Catholics and Protestants are also significant, suggesting that Catholics who become alienated from their church often leave, whereas Protestants have the option of simply switching denominations."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From BBC News: "During his address in Amman, the pontiff called on Jordan's Muslims and Christians to work together to improve their society. 'Some assert that religion is necessarily a cause of division in our world and so they argue that the lesser attention given to religion in the public sphere the better,' he said. 'Certainly, the contradiction of tensions and divisions between the followers of different religious traditions, sadly, cannot be denied. However, is it not also the case that often it is the ideological manipulation of religion, sometimes for political ends, that is the real catalyst for tension and division, and at times even violence in society?'"
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From canada.com: "A number of authors have recently made a stir by telling us that it is irrational, if not immoral, to believe in God or to be a Christian; among the most influential of these are Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hichens and Sam Harris. To the contrary, there are excellent reasons for maintaining that Christian theism is the proper result of a fully critical science and philosophy."
- Mark Trapp
"Science at once presupposes and demonstrates, as Bernard Lonergan has argued at length, that the universe is intelligible; and this is best explained by the existence of an intelligent will (God) underlying the universe, whose intelligence explains the fact that it is intelligible, and whose will explains why it has the particular kind of intelligibility that scientists progressively...
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- Mark Trapp
"Not only is material-ism not a necessary consequence of science; but apparently it is not even compatible with it. Why are we right to believe scientists when they tell us about the aspects of the world in which they specialize? We do so on the assumption that they have been thoroughly rational in relation to the matters in question; that, in Lonergan's terms, they have been...
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- Mark Trapp
From the Christian Science Monitor: "We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West. Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century. This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
I definitely think he makes some good points in this piece. An issue that is not discussed, however, is the Sovereignty of God. Does the Lord not play a role in the future of Evangelical Christianity in America? Spencer makes it sound like a free-fall.
- Adam
From the Deacon's Bench: "With a new media boom sweeping the digital world, the Catholic Church is doing its best to stay relevant. The Vatican recently launched a YouTube channel that offers video in Italian, English, Spanish and German to its 13,660 subscribers. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishop’s Office of Digital Media, responsible for developing and maintaining “everything Internet” for the organization, links to audio podcasts of the daily Scripture readings (plus video reflections), videos on the sacraments and other Church topics, movie reviews and more. Singles are connecting via dating sites like CatholicMatch and CatholicSingles. And of course Catholic media, including the Catholic Herald, have jumped, keyboards-first, into the world of Web sites, blogs, Twitter feeds and Facebook pages to deliver material to a wider audience and a younger generation."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From CNN: "Call it a project of biblical proportions: 31,173 verses, 90 cities, one Word. Those are the statistics being touted by Zondervan, the publisher behind a tour to produce a handwritten edition of the New International Version of the Bible -- America's NIV -- to celebrate the translation's 30th anniversary. "We're basically halfway there," said Zondervan spokeswoman Tara Powers. A little more than 15,000 people had put pen to paper by mid-February. Each person gets to copy one verse of Scripture."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
"Our quarterback is a definite leader and devout Christian," cornerback Roderick Hood said. "I think that has spearheaded our growth. Also, guys see the peace we have on the field and want to find that themselves."
- Shey
from Bookmarklet
From a New Song: "Having the Holy Spirit at work in our lives is like having a billionaire give us a credit card. With it, we can buy things we could otherwise never be able to afford. Just so, with the Holy Spirit we have the strength of God within us which enables us to performs acts of generosity and courage we could never have dreamed of doing on our own. Because of our baptism, we have been made daughters and sons of God and now have access to that great power at work in us who believe."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
From the New York Times: "Hearing a knock at the door, Brother Nicholas White peeked through a small cross-shaped window and opened the door at St. Crispin’s Friary in the South Bronx. On the steps outside, a man stood and asked for a blessing. Without hesitating, Brother Nicholas put his hand on the man’s shoulder, closed his eyes and prayed with him. The man, Wilbert Barber, who has been a frequent visitor, had been homeless until recently and was now in an apartment paid for with public assistance. 'I needed prayer, I needed God’s protection,' said Mr. Barber, 48. 'I can’t make it without God.'"
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
"Nourishment, spiritual and material, is something that the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have been dispensing since 1987 when a group of friars started the religious community in the South Bronx to serve neighborhoods with a variety of problems. The order has grown steadily, attracting men from across the country willing to give up material possessions and devote their lives to prayer and charity. The order now has 120 friars and 14 friaries worldwide."
- Mark Trapp
From the New York Times: "The sudden crush of worshipers packing the small evangelical Shelter Rock Church in Manhasset, N.Y. — a Long Island hamlet of yacht clubs and hedge fund managers — forced the pastor to set up an overflow room with closed-circuit TV and 100 folding chairs, which have been filled for six Sundays straight. In Seattle, the Mars Hill Church, one of the fastest-growing evangelical churches in the country, grew to 7,000 members this fall, up 1,000 in a year. At the Life Christian Church in West Orange, N.J., prayer requests have doubled — almost all of them aimed at getting or keeping jobs."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
"Like evangelical churches around the country, the three churches have enjoyed steady growth over the last decade. But since September, pastors nationwide say they have seen such a burst of new interest that they find themselves contending with powerful conflicting emotions — deep empathy and quiet excitement — as they re-encounter an old piece of religious lore: Bad times are good for evangelical churches."
- Mark Trapp
From BBC News: "Traditionalist Anglicans are to formally announce that they are setting up a new church in the US and Canada. The move will make the long-discussed split in the Anglican Church in North America a reality. It means in each country there will be two competing churches, both claiming allegiance to the Anglican Communion."
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet