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timepilot › Likes
Google Acquires AppJet - http://etherpad.com/ep...
Altuğ `αℓƒσ¢υѕ´ Orgun, Kamamiya, Aron Michalski and 75 other people liked this
Congratulations! "We are happy to announce that AppJet Inc. has been acquired by Google. The EtherPad team will continue its work on realtime collaboration by joining the Google Wave team."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
I've been waiting for this :)
- Benjamin Golub
Congrats to the team (http://etherpad.com/ep...)
- AJ Batac
I'm sad that they're shutting it down though :(
- Paul Buchheit
Shutting it down?! why?
- Susan Beebe
No etherpad or alternative for the next 18-24 months :(
- Peng-Toh
This freaking sucks.
- Eric Florenzano
if the technology gets integrated with google docs, it would be as good as the current etherpad
- Mike Chelen
Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm going to do now for jotting down notes...I guess back to email
- Benjamin Golub
google docs still works nicely for most document tasks, including sharing or publishing as needed
- Mike Chelen
I knew it! Docs really needs some Etherpad awesomeness http://blogoscoped.com/forum...
- Jérôme Flipo
Google docs is my friend :)
- Susan Beebe
Even Wave's playback needs some Etherpad's time-slider sauce.
- Jérôme Flipo
if Google works as fast trying to figure out what to do with Etherpad as they did for Jotspot or Jaiku, just to name a few, one can say goodbye to Etherpad and stop using it. This is bad news actually.
- lelapin
SO this is like FF - another talent grab - Google's acquiring more smart talent
- Susan Beebe
I hope Google announces some way for us to create new pads, my online learning classroom will not be the same without etherpad :-(
- Shakeel Mahate
Ouch.
- Адский Блондин
Oh noes! I'm with Shakeel...I need EtherPad for my high school Digital Media students. It's one of the few collaboration sites that isn't blocked at the district level.
- Shea
Shutting down etherpad is a travesty. Fucking Google, keep it open.
- Mitch
I had a feeling this would happen... Etherpad is basically a simplified proto-wave.
- Lindsay
I loved etherpad. Simple and great for code sharing. I don't think there is any other web service like etherpad out there. It will be missed.
- vivekian
During one of my phone screens, I was so frustrated with writely that I switched to etherpad.
- Piaw Na
creative
- ★ Soner Gönül
Google MUST keep Etherpad open after March 31st. I fear that this will be the new JotSpot, and there's no simple alternative around.
- Jorge Martins Rosa
Adding new application interfaces like the EtherPad is the right next step for Wave. They need to move beyond the current Wave app interface towards multi-application document interoperability. Otherwise they will end up being categorized as just a really confusing chat services.
- David Lounsbury
Yet another example of why you shouldn't use the cloud for anything remotely important.
- Gabe
In abstract I would agree with you but there are previous examples, in the past, when Google acquired start-ups and literally did nothing with them. The ideal situation would have been acquiring Etherpad before Wave was created let alone released and build something with it as basis. Now what do you think is going to happen? Best scenario would be Etherpad's people being listened to and...
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- lelapin
from email
lelapin: Thing is, if they acquired Etherpad before Wave was created, Etherpad probably would have cost more to acquire. I'd say the long term potential of Wave having similar functionality, and more, devalued Etherpads product. In announcing that they will open source Etherpad, Google seems to be acknowledging this. Seems like a good outcome for everyone, Etherpad employees, Google and their users.
- Andrew Perry
Andrew: I'm just glad Etherpad (probably following the outcry that their earlier post provoked) made public pads possible again and is to be released as open source for anybody to grab the code and create something out of it. I'm not the slightest concerned about the price at which Etherpad would have been acquired had not Wave existed, it's Google we're talking about here.
- lelapin
Same Wii game playing in 3 different rooms
timepilot, Brian, Roberto Bonini and 28 other people liked this
This now works for Wii, Xbox 360, TiVo, Blu ray, Apple TV, and I'll be adding the Mac Mini soon.
- Cristo
So when I add the second TiVo and another Apple TV (for Boxee), I'll be out of sources! No room for Vudu or Roku. :(
- Cristo
Hrm, I thought the Wii communicates from the remote to the system and the bar is just for triangulation. Do the remotes have enough range to cover your whole house? Likewise, what about Xbox controllers? Also how are you getting around the annoyance of switching disks when the player/system is tucked away in a cabinet?
- Benjamin Golub
Benjamin, the house isn't that big (~1700sqft). Most of it is open or partially open, and the media closet is in the center. I've had no problems yet with either Xbox or Wii controllers. As for switching disks, I have not gotten around that problem, and if I do, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to talk about it online. ;)
- Cristo
So if you have two screens within wiimote range and you get another ir bar, you could have two people playing multiplayer on different screens in different rooms! Cool!
- Kevin Fox
and they say the family unit isn't what it used to be!
- Morgan Haley
Kevin, yes. I have 3 wireless bars, but I only have one in the photos. The kitchen makes a great bowling alley, but Beti told me she doesn't want people in there bowling when she's cooking. :)
- Cristo
Drool...
- Jesse Stay
/invites self to Cristo's house.
- Louis Gray
/accepts Louis' invitation to Cristo's house. :)
- Cristo
/joins louis, uninvited
- Jesse Stay
Maybe we'll have a friendfeed party.:)
- Cristo
We have a place in the downstairs bath we were originally going to put one, but it seems unnecessary, and probably takes away from the zen-like atmosphere of the spa-bath. I know. But hey, I live in San Francisco, right? :)
- Cristo
Rod, were you planning on playing rock band on the toilet? Not sure everyone would want to use those instruments.
- Cristo
Wow Cristo. Zen-like definitely describes that bathroom. Well done.
- Steve
Thanks Steve.
- Cristo
Here's a nice photo of the bath at night: http://friendfeed.com/cristob...
- Cristo
What's your high score?
- Mike Reynolds
Mike, I suck at games. I'm doing this for the intellectual challenge as much as anything, and also so people will come to my house so I don't have to go anywhere. :)
- Cristo
Hey can I move in with you??? :)
- Jan Ole Peek
Brian Solis at Bub.blicio.us: Introducing the FriendFeed Team - http://bub.blicio.us/1111126...
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Tudor Bosman, Lysender, ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0, and 148 other people liked this
Brian, as always, takes great pictures, even with questionable subjects. The pictures are from tonight's open house.
- Louis Gray
from Bookmarklet
Great pic Louis and tell them I love them all, best product on the web right now
- Thomas Power
Great photo!
- Bret Taylor
Left to right, as if you didn't know already: Dan Hsiao, Casey Muller, Ana Yang, Jim Norris, Tudor Bosman, Bret Taylor, Paul Buchheit (with Camilla), Sanjeev Singh, Kevin Fox.
- Tudor Bosman
yes; awesome photo!
- Tudor Bosman
(Not pictured: Ben Golub, Gary Burd and Ross Miller)
- Louis Gray
Some of our Turkish friends are also there http://ff.im/3mt6T.. Thanks for the pictures
- Murat Buyurgan
Great Photo :)
- Nimaa
You didn't tell me there was a FriendFeed party this week or I would have come out :-)
- Jesse Stay
Tudor SMASH!
- dario
Jesse: I haven't been able to make a friendfeed party for a while. We need a calendar! Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
اینا هم حلقه دارن. رونوشت به مازیار و مهران اینا
- Aly
Rock on, Kevin!
- Josh Haley
Great PPs!!加油，Friendfeed！:)))
- K.D.
That's why I love today's web : you can talk with the people that build the next web, and see those who build your current web. Congrats guys!
- Zackatoustra
FriendFeed Team, I love you !!!! Thanks to you all, I'm very happy everyday!!!
- Renchin(Reina)Wang
So that was the TGIFF ("Thank Goodness It's FriendFeed") party? Perhaps slightly off-topic, but if Camiila hasn't been betrothed yet, have I got a grandson for her ;-))
- ianf ⌘
TGIFF was excellent. Great event and great people.Thanks for the invite and hospitality.
- AJ Kohn
Louis, thank you and thank you to the FriendFeed team for making a killer product and hosting a great open house!
- Brian Solis
I think I spotted Hutch (http://friendfeed.com/bhc3) in an uncaptioned photo wearing a white "San Francisco Classic" shirt: http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Yes, Daniel. That is Hutch.
- Louis Gray
Fun party, great food, great hospitality.
- Anne Bouey
Anne - great finally meeting you yesterday.
- Hutch Carpenter
great photo, good to see the whole team together!
- Jeroen De Miranda
oooh i am totally wishing i was there! Robert is right, we need a calendar! :)
- Susan Beebe
Hutch: Thanks. I enjoyed chatting with you, too.
- Anne Bouey
what's with the guitar? lol
- Stuart Evans
(bump) Ana and Casey are now married. Here's a pic of them on the left, between Ross and Jim. Congratulations to Ana and Casey! (per http://friendfeed.com/jessica...)
- Louis Gray
علی حجوانی تو روحت، ای واسه چه موقعیه؟ :)))
- Mehran
:))))))))) مال بعد از عیده. اواخر فروردین فک کنم
- Aly
:)))
- Mehran
Our Computers Are Down! - http://thenextweb.com/shareab...
friday night, Alfredo, justsoblogger and 39 other people liked this
Funny!! :)
- Susan Beebe
Office workers are shown to be playing solitaire...
- TrafficBug
Dell Releases Customized Version of Chrome OS - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Kol Tregaskes, David Cook, Cem Ozkaynak and 15 other people liked this
That was crazy fast....
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
The power of open source?
- Victor Ganata
Yes indeed, particularly since Dell didn't "release" anything, per se. A Dell employee did some "tinkering" as he puts it, and has made his USB image available.
- Ken Sheppardson
Open source ftw!!
- imabonehead
from Android
cool :)
- Susan Beebe
It looks like in the wifi chipset space, Atheros has been more open-source friendly than Broadcom. So the change with Dell Mini 10V might be to add some support for a Broadcom chipset. This 2008 article at http://blogs.computerworld.com/new_lin... gives some background on Linux & Atheros vs. Broadcom, plus the fact that Dell has contributed Broadcom drivers for Linux in the past.
- Matt Cutts
Thorium is readily available & can be turned into energy without generating transuranic wastes. Thorium's capacity as nuclear fuel was discovered during WW II, but ignored because it was unsuitable for making bombs. A liquid-fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) is the optimal approach for harvesting energy from Thorium, and has the potential to solve... - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Mark Trapp, Sean McBride, Justin Hopkins and 14 other people liked this
thx for highlighting this!
- timepilot
Interesting about Thorium. Not sure I like the remix style talk cutups, though. It would have been nice if the person who did the editing linked the YouTube description to the original talks. I would have watched one of those instead.
- DeWitt Clinton
Steve Gillmor thinks Silverlight is the platform of the future http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... [I think that he missed the memo about the web/html5]
timepilot, imabonehead, Sam Harrelson and 8 other people liked this
Is Steve Gillmor the new John Dvorak or just another one? Being contrary seems like a life goal -- maybe just their way of appearing relevant?
- Brian Sullivan
at least the TechCrunch commenters addressed the issue. time to take this convo private
- Steve Gillmor
Steve- Visual Studio2010 is written completely in WPF. So its not a completely ridiculous notion to suggest that Office will be written in WPF/Silverlight at some point in the future.
- Roberto Bonini
EH ? was not Vista built on the WPF foundation too ??
- Peter Dawson
roberto of course. but the idea that I missed the HTML 5 memo and that I'm being contrarian is lamer than the comments on Techcrunch which is a promising trend.
- Steve Gillmor
Visual Studio 2010 used WPF as part of its text editor and rendering engine. By no stretch of the imagination is it 'completely written in WPF'. Vista included .NET 3.5 (as an update) which includes the WPF libraries. No part of Vista used WPF directly. Steve is correct that an Office implementation in Silverlight is inevitable, but it's more a question of positioning rather than engineering.
- David Ing
the message at PDC was loud and strong: WPF and SIlverlight are converging - fast
- Steve Gillmor
exactly david - not technology but strategic shift
- Steve Gillmor
I think the message from PDC is more that WPF is 'resting', as in it's in the 10 year support cycle, and certainly the 'tech de jour' for windows desktop apps but that all the release cycle energy is being put into Silverlight. It's interesting in that SL is starting to diverge slightly in that the Win / Mac runtimes are not quite on par, i.e. when Silverlight crosses the line in being 'better on Windows' then it's completely confused the whole WPF/SL story
- David Ing
any divergence will be met with pushback at the highest levels. please document such issues and point to them so we can leverage them
- Steve Gillmor
It seems msft's intent is for much greater synergies between Spoint/Office etc going forward, various techs involved, with silverlight deeper into 'platform' throughout, but still immature and UI layer...
- oliver marks
Peter: there is almost zero.NET code inside Vista. Also, who said Visual Studio was written on top of .NET (IE, WPF or Silverlight)? That's wrong.
- Robert Scoble
Ah, sorry David. Misread which ever article I read that in. Thanks for clarifying it. Nonetheless, Microsoft is using it's own products because they see it as the future n
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Silverlight Office will center on micromessaging, and it will be sooner than robert's 5 years bet
- Steve Gillmor
Steve, the divergence will be COM, i.e. in Silverlight 4 I can automate MS Office via COM, use Text to Speech in Vista via COM - Microsoft have 14 years of interfaces that Silverlight on Windows can now unlock. If Mac had the equiv then I'm sure they'd do the same, but this is an interesting case where you can write a better SL app 'for windows' than without - makes sense?
- David Ing
yes david
- Steve Gillmor
but linking to old Office is not what I am saying see above
- Steve Gillmor
Yep, I understand, not being contrary, but highlighting that the developers themselves can create divergence of SL if they so choose - so much of world of windows is accessible from COM, and that the Silverlight Out of Browser (SLOOB) is an interesting sweet spot that may have unintended strategic side effects.
- David Ing
Mac compliant apps are the sweet spot. Devs may veer but the trend will be toward interoperability and with Moonlight too.
- Steve Gillmor
I hope so, although mainly just for the 'client' run-time. A big Silverlight for Business Apps push is the updated 'RIA Services' capability. This cements the story that SL is aimed at the business developer with a Windows backend, as in Moonlight and Mono have no RIA service equiv as yet. A large majority of new Silverlight apps being written next year will be for enterprises and be...
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- David Ing
all true but the key apps will support Win/Mac and add point functionality to iphone as demoed in LA.
- Steve Gillmor
The '3-screens' message re:iphone is an odd one, as in if you count Win7Mobile then that's roughly 2.5 screens :). The two iPhone demos at PDC were (1) the mp4 silverlight streaming, i.e. IIS using the SL video codec (more a branding association rather than actual Silverlight) and (2) a web app over the data.gov 'Dallas' store (PHP based ironically). It doesn't take a mac genius to work...
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- David Ing
Robert, Visual studio 2010 is written partly in WPF. Not 2008. Now Microsoft has at least one project with an OS kernal written completely in .net. So Im on steves side on this one.
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Oh and Robert, you can tell the difference between the WPF designer in 2010 and the vanilla in in 2008
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
I give you the Faboo Mama Burger!
ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,, Soup, ayda and 64 other people liked this
That's wine-soaked shitake and red onion, on a hickory smoked turkey patty covered in pepperjack & sharp cheddar, on a sesame seed buN (LOL @Amanda) slathered in garlic tahini. My inspiration: http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Captain Bubbles
Holy shit.
- Mike Nayyar
I don't eat ketchup when ranch dressing is around so that is what in the spoon.
- Captain Bubbles
OMG and the French fries are perfect; crispy on the outside, creamy inside. I fucking rock.
- Captain Bubbles
Damn, looks good! Esp with the avo
- Mo Kargas
yum yum yum. Agree with Mo on the avo :)
- Penny
Never used tahini on a burger before, but great googamooga, this is downright delicious. I think I wet my pants in excitement.
- Captain Bubbles
i'll start with the fries!
- Andy Sternberg
I'd have to leave off the shitake and onion, but other than that, sounds DELISH.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Food inhaled. Mama happy. Should have passed the gross Pacifio over for a red wine, but the food was delish!
- Captain Bubbles
Oooh proper thick cut chips, yum! Pass the salt n vinegar
- Sally Church
Take that avocado off, and we can break bread, girl. O_o
- Derrick
Whoa nom
- Rodfather
I'll take the "plain" version with just the patty, pepperjack, cheddar, and bun - sounds tasty!
- Nathan Chase
Bump for its beauty -- and it's not even a picture of your kids.
- Mona Nomura
Damn, That looks just about good enough to eat!
- Josh Haley
Mona, did you notice the spoon? LOL I couldn't not use it.
- Captain Bubbles
biting hand Lenny & Squiggy style
- adolfo foronda
I totally did and snorted coffee LOL
- Mona Nomura
Next time forget Five Guys...I'm headed to One Gal.
- Mark Krynsky
Looks nummy. I miss turkey here in France. I don't know whats up w/ the french, I can get turkey in India, but not France ;-(
- InPerpetualMotion(Gina k)
Looks good!
- Rutger Blom
LOL @Krynsky.
- Captain Bubbles
something pleasant to look at this morning. ;d
- Helen Sventitsky
Wow, and I thought that Five Guys had an extensive list of toppings. You definitely have them beat!
- Ontario Emperor
So...nobody's curious about the "sesame seed bum"? :D
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
Come to Daddy!
- John Flynn
Avocado on turkey, yes. On beef, no.
- Adrian
Oh man. I had forgotten about this. *drool*
- Captain Bubbles
Chrome OS will help kill Silverlight and other non-open tech, preventing msft and others from recapturing the web. (though I expect that it will support Flash by necessity)
ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,, Charles Frith, Vladimir Yashnikov and 150 other people liked this
Good point.
- Robert Scoble
I hope it doesn't. After all we need good media delivery platforms.
- Swaroop
Including GNASH - the open source alternative - would solve that problem
- Bogdan Costea
yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it.
- Zio Bonino
Chrome OS might be a compelling case for SVG/<canvas> + <audio> tag replacements for flash. Dunno what SVG's perf is like on WebKit tho.
- Matt Mastracci
Microsoft will port it. It's all about codecs & DRM. Ogg Theora isn't all that great.
- Rodfather
Is that Steve Jobs disguised as Zio ?
- Swaroop
@Swaroop Yes, we do. Like HTML5.
- Benjamin Dobson
@Swaroop eh eh, I've got flash disabled on all my systems :)
- Zio Bonino
@Benjamin I'd prefer HTML web apps over native apps anyday. But it'll take time for it to mature
- Swaroop
Rodfather, I don't think that will be an option for msft :). If Chrome is built the way I would do it, there is no installation per-se -- everything runs in the browser and the config in stored in the cloud (and cached locally). The computer is a pure appliance.
- Paul Buchheit
@Zio You're the real Steve Jobs
- Swaroop
Microsoft moves much too slow to force new standards these days.
- Louis Gray
@Louis: IE8 flunking ACID test :)
- Swaroop
What about more standard codecs like h.264? That isn't open and is in hardware already.
- Rodfather
h.264 is established and must be in there, but it's not a platform like Silverlight is.
- Paul Buchheit
I know some of the guys behind silverlight. It is some great technology. Too bad it's from Microsoft and is closed.
- Joe Beda ()
from iPhone
A world with no Flash and Silverlight. I can't wait.
- Paul Grav
Yeah, it's too bad they didn't open-source it. This stuff with Mono is silly -- if you want to make a real standard you need to make the real implementation be open.
- Paul Buchheit
MS are about 10 years too late with Silverlight. And they'll most likely be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting HTML5.
- Paul Grav
Zio sez (hopefully humorously): "yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it" -- have you ever watched a single YouTube video in your life? Like seventeen gazillion other people across the wired world. yeah, you're right, nobody needs Flash. ha!
- .LAG liked that
Remember Dave Clark in 1992, "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code."
- Guy Vander Heyden
.LAG: most YouTube videos are playable without Flash now. My iPhone plays most of them and it doesn't have Flash. Certainly by the time the Google OS came out YouTube would be converted completely to non-Flash capability.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: The youtube flash application helps read the flv files on Youtube's servers and provides a UI (decoder too).
- Swaroop
Even Google admits they're not sure I'd bit for bit html5 video is less bandwitj consuming than flash. And flash isn't just media delivery, also interesting games and apps like tonepad, splicemusic.com's online sequencer, etc (I'm musically inclined, so most of my examples will be along that line) and please don't suggest we redo it all in java
- Ed F
from Nambu
Does this mean the next Silverlight release is codename Seppuku?
- Jay Cuthrell
Maybe we'll see commercials encoded in movies if everything is open.
- Rodfather
Flash is too established to kill off right now, so I'd be surprised if Chrome didn't include flash support. It will take many years to get rid of that thing. First they need to fix the standard browser to not be so broken (lack of video, multi-file upload, etc), then they need everyone to switch to the new html5 solutions.
- Paul Buchheit
Scoble ...that may be true, and YouTube plays on my Pre without Flash (yet)...but that doesn't mean that "nobody needs Flash." really? what would replace it?
- .LAG liked that
So Google's NaCl http://code.google.com/p... (now integrated within Chrome/Chromium) was just a temporary workaround, right?
- Jérôme Flipo
Use HTML 5 instead!
- Minh Bui
Is it just me or does Native Client (NaCl) remind you of the Microsoft Active X approach?
- Daniel Chow
But who prevents Google from taking over the net?
- Andreas
youtube videos play on iPhone/iPod Touch as they are higher res mp4 files NOT flv files. It was a big deal when Steve negotiated that deal with youtube.
- vijay
You have Moonlight to run Silverlight applications in Linux. Not perfect, but then an application made on Silverlight is "not perfect" by definition
- Marcos Marado
The point here is that Google has no motivation to include Silverlight on these machines, and installing software likely won't be an option (it's a web appliance), so it will be absent from a lot of netbooks, just as it is absent from iPhones. That cuts into market share, which is a bad thing for a platform that is trying to compete with more universal tech like Flash and HTML....
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- Paul Buchheit
@DanielChow: NaCl has very little overlap with ActiveX, apart from running native code. It runs in a provably safe way, and explicitly does *not* allow it to access arbitrary host APIs. But it can be quite useful when you need to run code that would be too slow in Javascript (even on v8): e.g., heavy encryption/decryption, possibly codecs, definitely game physics, and so forth.
- Joel Webber
There is a time and a place for Flash and Silverlight so I hope it will run it. There are simply some things you can do which aren't possible, or practical in html/css/javascript.
- Steve Temple
Paul: why wouldn't Chrome OS come with Moonlight? And if not, why wouldn't you be able to just install it? And third, why the hell would people want Moonlight for? I never installed it and not even once felt the need to!
- Marcos Marado
from fftogo
because of moonlight http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlig... the potential userbase of silverlight is greatly improved, agree that projects which don't consider compatibility are limiting their potential
- Mike Chelen
@mindboosternoori Ryanair site uses silverlight: http://www.ryanair.com/site... that's the only website I know that uses it - for this you would need moonlight :)
- Ihar Mahaniok
Flash is needed for the google os to be useful in education. Many education based websites are flash based.
- Willowdale
@Paul "Google is probably paying OEMs to ship with this OS, so instead of paying $x/machine to include windows XP, they will get paid $y/machine to include Chrome." - paying present tense, already? Isn't it enough for OEMs not to have to pay hefty licenses to Redmond, etc., while being able to ship with a free, stable OS+browser combo; they need to be paid to do that as well?
- ianf ⌘
I sure hope so. I think the wide array of JavaScript libraries have been killing Flash for years. Silverlight was never really a player. The only think keeping Flash afloat is video
- Scott Radcliff
I don't know what's under the hood of Silverlight (nobody knows), but Flash is basically a sprite engine controlled by Actionscript, which is basically an adapted version of Javascript anyway. It's nicely packaged though, and has an army of developers, so it won't go away that easily, at least not until there are Flash-to-Canvas/ HTML5 porting tools/ translators and the like.
- ianf ⌘
to follow that logic...photoshop is needed as well
- Chris Hofmann
somebody call me when http://playboyarchive.com is working in Chrome OS (it's currently implemented in Silverlight)
- Karim
If it gains any traction at all, MS will just make Silverlight version that will run on Google OS. Sure google could block it, but they haven't done so with the Chrome browser.
- Jeff Weber
Interesting. I doubt the Google OS will get that big anytime soon though.
- Scott Radcliff
from email
Silverlight doesn't have a chance now...I wonder what would Adobe Air do.
- Saad Kamal
not really, if google want to be open then they will need a plugin architecture for it and then MS could just port for it. I really don't see this troubling mainstream users any time soon.
- Darren Stuart
Though I agree with the view that MS monopoly may erode as alternative devices get adoption over PC/Notebook, and these devices will mostly run on open source OS, but it may take years to create a significant change in every day usage of normal users. In the end, OS choice is mostly done by manufacturers, and they would be happy to get paid by open source vendors for putting their OS on...
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- Kaan Bingol
People want media. Hulu, Netflix, Kindle, iTunes, etc. They need to address that or they are DOA.
- Hayes Haugen
Hayes, what makes you think it will lack media support?
- Paul Buchheit
I don't think it will lack licensed media support but what deals they are able to make will be crucial.
- Hayes Haugen
Hayes, i thought you were going to say that Netflix was using Silverlight. ;-)
- Karim
Yes, they are, what is their deal with MSFT? Can they do non Silverlight distribution?
- Hayes Haugen
i believe the Netflix non-Silverlight distribution is a format called "DVD" that works over the "Snail Mail" protocol. ;-) but clearly if Google is paying OEMs to install Chrome OS, they can pay Netflix to go back to Flash which Chrome OS will probably support "by necessity" ;-)
- Karim
How can Google make money from Chrome OS? Or does it want to make money from it except through advertisement? I still can not imagine that all software and service are free and sponsored by advertisements.
- Derek Wei
All Chrome OS questions are answered by today's Fake Steve Jobs ;)
- Hayes Haugen
Is there a need to make money? If more and more people eschew desktop offline applications in favor of online web based apps, it means more pageviews, more eyeballs, more advertising inventory, plus has the side effect of undermining a big competitor's cash cow.
- Ray Cromwell
That's the key, Google wants everything online. They figure the more people online, the stronger they become, and the more money they make. At least that what was said at the Chrome launch.
- Scott Radcliff
from email
I'm amused that the "backwards compatibility" argument against alternative operating systems has slowly turned into "does it support flash", and when you unpack that it really means "does it play YouTube". I suspect Google will make sure ChromeOS cna play YouTube and they don't need Flash to make sure of it.
- Nick Lothian
Is it possible that Microsoft will write Office for the Web using Volta instead of Silverlight? Could be a showcase announcement for their attack on GWT
- Ray Cromwell
I think Microsoft is going to focus less on the front-end of the web and more on the back-end, middle tier and database sides. Azure is a big deal that consumers aren't talking about because it's not flashy but will be pretty important to developers (and especially enterprise-level applications) when it's finally ready because everything becomes an interface to the cloud. Microsoft is...
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- Lindsay
Azure looks really cool. Hint: so did Blackbird.
- Michael R. Bernstein
lol blackbird (scary redmond flashback) - a good example of azure platform utilization can be seen via jon udell's elmcity project - http://blog.jonudell.net/elmcity...
- mike "glemak" dunn
Nosense, I want silverlight, flash, html and any other technology in my desktop & mobile phone. Silverlight? yes, there you can develop under Python, Ruby et al, instead of the outdated javascript.
- Sebastian Wain
Good Point, Paul. The web has to be free from proprietary software. And to h.264, sorry OGG Theora is free and superior.
- Ryo / Fuck Facebook
It looks like with Native Client, you should be able to write your Chrome OS app in any language you feel like. So far, they have some examples in C/C++, but one of the things they ported is a Lua interpreter. If Adobe isn't going to invest heavily in fixing the show-stopping bugs on non-Windows versions of Flash, it's inevitably going to die, and there's really nothing either Google or Apple can do even if they wanted to support Flash better.
- Victor Ganata
...ActionScript3 is ECMASCript-compliant. I know nothing about standards bodies, and shii like that, but what if Adobe dropped ActionScript and said, "You can now use pure Javascript to build Flash applications..." It wouldn't be a big leap. I'm pretty sure that would shut-up all the Flash haters. And to the folks who say Flash is hanging around just because of video...well, video is...
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- .LAG liked that
Actionscript is just the glue for the more advanced what-iffy graphic functionality of Flash. They can not drop it for Javascript, because it contains additional graphic primitives that JS lacks. But it's not the JS-or-Actionscript that makes it a target for hate, it's other things. Nobody denies that it's pretty capable, but it is also badly written, eats up memory like no other, makes...
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- ianf ⌘
I like this post!
- Mohammad Abdurraafay
from iPhone
I honestly don't know how necessary Flash is. Apple seems to be doing fine without supporting it. But certainly Gnash and Swfdec should be implementable on Chrome OS. The fact is that without Adobe's full support on a given platform, Flash apps will always be second class citizens on alternate platforms, and so far, there's no indication that Adobe is interested in fully supporting any platform other than Windows.
- Victor Ganata
ianf ...you bring up great points about Flash's detriments, as does Victor, but until there's a better way to bring video to the Web, I can't see it disappearing. Adobe seems to keep improving the Flash VM, hopefully they'll address those CPU-hogging issues and make a more efficent runtime. Yeah, I hate hearing the fans kick-in when visiting a Flash-heavy site too. <sigh>
- .LAG liked that
alternative to flash video such as ... html5 :) (requires ff3.5) http://www.dailymotion.com/openvid...
- Mike Chelen
from IM
Ed, only??? thats one of the main reasons cited for the continued requirement of flash on popular sites like youtube
- Mike Chelen
Ed, those other uses can be accomplished through pure Javascript, video was the last remaining stumbling block
- Mike Chelen
Still waiting on non-Flash recreations of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... Well aware of how someone mentioned higher up how you can combine javascript and svg to get nifty flash-like effects. I want apps like that though ^ Only real alternatives I've seen are Java-based ones, and those runs even slower than Flash.
- Ed F
Pardon me, but the OP is a ridiculous conclusion. For that to be the case, Chrome OS would have to kill Windows, OS X, etc altogether. Paul, I understand your viewpoint as being an ex-Google person, but that's just NOT going to happen. Right now the video specification from HTML5 has been dropped because of an impasse, meaning that we may be transitioning from 1 closed-source boss - Flash - to another - H264. Good luck.
- LANjackal
But why do these type of apps have to be written in Flash at all? You can easily do the same thing in C, C++, ObjC, Python, Ruby, etc., with the Native Client API that they're building for Chrome. http://code.google.com/p...
- Victor Ganata
I'm just saying, it's not like Flash is the end-all/be-all. As Apple well demonstrates, some people can live quite well without it.
- Victor Ganata
Victor ...i think the answer to the 'why do these have to be written in Flash at all' question is because Flash is installed on such a significant portion of Web browsers. But I recall that Adobe Flex had a competitor, Laszlo/OpenLaszlo, which compiled apps to SWF or to Javascript. Who's to say that Adobe doesn't have the same capability of making SWF apps into JS ones? On one hand, it...
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- .LAG liked that
Ed, such apps are possible with Javascript and HTML5 multimedia features, the question will be how difficult developers find it, and whether the performance is fast enough
- Mike Chelen
LANjackal, there is a question of degree in that Flash + H264 uses proprietary software and codec, while HTML5 + H264 requires only the codec. while OGV is no longer part of the spec, it can certainly still be used to have completely open video formats, and recent comparisons have shown it performs well http://people.xiph.org/~maikme...
- Mike Chelen
Silverlight's 3 is looking pretty impressive today but tend to agree
- Charlie Anzman
What everybody seems to be missing about Flash is that it works because there is one implementation which is mostly backwards-compatible and the same across platforms. It beat Java because, among other reasons, Java just didn't work the same across JVMs and platforms. The problem with HTML5 is that it will have a different implementation for every browser, and that means your app/game...
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- Gabe
Paul, don't you prefer brutal competition SL vs. Flash vs. standards bring to the table by definition? Or are you more into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - 2020 Google Union - type of ideology?
- Kari Honkanen
Kari, I don't understand your question. Competition is good, but with open-source we get that -- no need for flash or SL.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, no, we don't get the same level of competition with open-source only. As long as there's an opportunity for big gains (like in this case to bridge the gap before html 5 era...to satisfy demand), there will be innovations driven by that. I believe we all benefit from a free market economy that includes commercial, closed source, innovations. I am more scared of the possible future...
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- Kari Honkanen
I wouldn't worry too much amount multimedia. By exposing WebGL, (and hopefully OpenCL), you can offload a lot of compute intensive stuff onto the GPU via GPGPU techniques, and NativeClient is there to take up the rest of the slack, but the for the vast majority of iPhone-like games, I'm willing to bet V8 Javascript on a modern processor is more than enough. That leaves licensing issues...
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- Ray Cromwell
Paul, so are you saying that Google will block both Flash and Silverlight from ChromeOS? That's a new take on 'open.'
- Cliff Gerrish
MSFT next smart move: get Chrome OS (it's BSD licensed), inject IE9 and Silverlight into it and go benchmark against Chrome :)
- Claudio Cicali ♋
MSFT sucks Claudio :)
- Orlando Pozo
Something feels contradictory about a system touted to 'kill' competitors being 'open'. Sounds almost predatory to me.
- Karoli
I'm not opposed to non-open software, but for OS, browser, etc I prefer that it be open. Cliff, Google isn't going to "block" anything, but they can certainly choose what to include, and my guess is that they won't include SL. As Claudio points out, MSFT can make their own version of ChromeOS that includes SL, which is why open source software is nice (it can't be crippled too much or else someone will fork it).
- Paul Buchheit
I have heard somewhere that Fash uses it's own port where Silverlight works over the HTTP port. That's why Netflix works so well. To that, Flash costs more on a sever side because providers can charge more for that port traffic. Could it come down to who is cheaper? (I am fully prepared to be wrong).
- Johnny Worthington
Johnny, they both use HTTP -- there's no difference there.
- Paul Buchheit
Is Chrome OS BSD-licensed? I thought it was using a Linux kernel.
- Victor Ganata
@Paul - well, Flash can do P2P stuff over non-HTTP posts, but that is very new (Flash 10 I think). The cost isn't affected anyway.
- Nick Lothian
My understanding is that netbooks would have to be absurdly popular for Chrome OS to make a dent in the popularity of Flash or SL.
- Gabe
it is possible to have smaller groups for open source software, such as google's own gears api http://code.google.com/apis...
- Mike Chelen
How is HTML 5 going to defeat Flash and SL? I haven't used it, but I don't see anything in the spec that looks like it could compare.
- Gabe
@Gabe - what do you think HTML5 is missing? It does video, drawing, local storage, "threading" via WebWorkers. The biggest hole I'm aware of is the lack of access to webcams & microphones. What have I missed?
- Nick Lothian
Nick: When you say HTML 5 has "drawing", are you refering to the Canvas element? I would not consider an immediate-mode procedural raster drawing library to be much of a competitor to retained-mode declarative vector libraries like SVG or Silverlight. Programming with the Canvas tag is sort of the equivalent of programming in assembly language for bitmaps.
- Gabe
@Gabe: I think you've got it upside-down. A Canvas-style API is the fundamental basis on which you can build a retained mode structure like SVG, et al. If a platform includes a retained-mode library as a convenience, so be it. You can build SVG on Canvas, but not the other way around (hacks like IECanvas notwithstanding -- they have horrible performance characteristics and are a nasty abstraction inversion).
- Joel Webber
So, if Moonlight (Mono) runs on linux -- Will google make sure it doesn't work on Chrome OS?
- Cliff Gerrish
Joel: I don't think you said anything contrary to what I said. I just don't understand why any programmer would want to waste time writing an app using a low-level library when I could use a high-level library that implements everything for me.
- Gabe
@Gabe - I agree, and people are implementing those libraries now. See http://raphaeljs.com/ for example. Also, don't underestimate the convenience factor. I don't own any Flash development tools, but my text editor works pretty well for Canvas+JS based stuff.
- Nick Lothian
Nick: Didn't the author of raphael have some massive rant about how bad the Canvas element is? And I don't have any Flash dev tools either, but I use a text editor for most of my Silverlight development. It is incredibly convenient to be able to type something like <DataGrid ItemsSource="{Binding tabledata}"/> into a text editor and not have to create the data grid myself.
- Gabe
Why is Flash a "necessity" for an OS? I enjoy what flash can do, but it is like putting pimped out leather Oldsmobile seats in a Ferrari. It would definitely be nice, but certainly not a necessity.
- Dan Douglass
Early post goof up. To your original point, I agree. I like how Google is approaching the internet space with web apps that can be run with out a bloated browser.
- Dan Douglass
Dan Douglass: Flash is necessary because so many web sites rely on it. How many people would want to get a netbook that couldn't play FaceBook games or watch YouTube videos? Of course Google is in the unique position of being able to make YouTube work on ChromeOS without Flash, but they probably can't do anything about Hulu, Vimeo, or any of the other video sites out there that require Flash.
- Gabe
Anyone else think Joy is Spam?
- Chris Myles
already reported it yesterday :)
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
internet refills? - http://juliasegal.tumblr.com/post...
Michael Lehman, Citronella, Roberto Bonini and 22 other people liked this
OMG! YOU MEAN IT RUNS OUT?!?
- Nathalie, Dreamer of FF
Do you get a discount if you buy in bulk?
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
Shake it a little bit and you can get some more use out of it. *tilts interwebs*
- Ayşe E.
LOL!
- Kol Tregaskes
lol, Ayse ;)
- 'Like' robot (frɐnc)
This is beyond awesome: iPhone or Droid? - xkcd - http://xkcd.com/662/
Tomonori Murakami, Steven Bryden, Pamela Weir and 72 other people liked this
It's funny because it's OMFG funny.
- Kevin Fox
from Bookmarklet
alt text: "It may be a fundamentally empty experience, but holy crap the Droid's 265 ppi screen is amazing."
- Kevin Fox
I first saw this cartoon via Reader on my Droid! Couldn't see the alt text tho...
- Rob Shillingsburg
The Droid has some nice parts to it but overall it sucks when compared to iPhone.
- Robert Scoble
hero
- siniradam
Somehow it seems the iPhone will always win on hardware. You know, unless they make a Droid phone brown and able to squirt songs to other Droid phones.
- Alex Bourt
Google hopes to remake programming with Go - http://news.cnet.com/8301-10...
Thomas Amberg, Barry Mitchelson, Marwan Osman and 103 other people liked this
This could be very good! "Google software luminaries such as Unix co-creator Ken Thompson believe that they can help boost both computing power and programmers' abilities with an experimental programming language project called Go. And on Tuesday, they're taking the veil of secrecy off Go, releasing what they've built so far and inviting others to join the newly open-source project."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
What do you think, Paul? I know it's early, but Python latched on at Google... Think this is a response? And just on a lark, do you think Go may be headed for the browser at some point (to replace javascript)? Many of us have wondered if Chrome will take a stab at reinventing/reworking the web stack. Go feels more like a back-end tool, but wondering what came to your mind when you saw this...
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, Python is nice, but we need a new system language, something high-performance to replace C/C++. This may be it.
- Paul Buchheit
Yeah, I was remembering your thoughts from here, Paul: http://friendfeed.com/paul.... Wonder how the ooc folks feel today...
- Christopher Galtenberg
My first reaction was oh yay, another C like language with brackets to make it acceptable. Having Rob Pike and Thompson on the team is impressive but makes me think of a plan9 resurrection. Using CSPs though is pretty cool and it looks like it supports mobile tasks.
- Todd Hoff
"Specifically, Go uses a technology dating back to the 1960s called CSP, or communicating sequential processes, that handles interactions among a set of cooperating programs, Pike said. The technology made an appearance in programming languages such as Occom and Erlang, but it generally hasn't been applied in systems programming."
- Paul Buchheit
If Google uses this for internal projects, that will give it a big advantage over something like plan9 in terms of being practical (not to mention the fact that it's free software, which plan9 was not, and a programming language, not an OS).
- Paul Buchheit
I am very excited about this, it's not genius or rocket science but it maybe the language to put alongisde C/C++ for real. I thought it was going to be D, maybe this is it
- Lawrence Oluyede
D seems too fragmented to be usable. All my hopes are on Go now :)
- Paul Buchheit
And note that the language is designed to be IDE independent.
- Piaw Na
Plan9 was a set of composable tools. In this case Google is providing the OS and the tools.
- Todd Hoff
Go is NOT an OS!
- Piaw Na
Where's the link to it?
- Gabe
Please ; at the end of lines... (I hate languages without ; for some psychological reasons)
- Ozgur Demir
I am no fan of language features designed to ease parsing but i suppose that's important for a system language? But it's hardly a user (i.e. programmer)-centric design. I think they should have drawn more from Scala (for concurrency model) and Io (for a beautiful syntax) instead of the messy, old languages they chose. Luckily, it's not designed for my needs so i'll never have to worry about it.
- ·[▪_▪]·
@ozgurdemir I agree. Either require them or don't. Don't make them optional in some cases. It confuses what programmers generally expect of a programming language: consistency.
- ·[▪_▪]·
Just checked and hated it. Sorry guys, it's not about the rest of the language.. it's just the ;'s.
- Ozgur Demir
while checking it, I noticed how much I love C / Java syntax and how lame to trying to change it just for to make a new product different.
- Ozgur Demir
@Paul you should know better than to confuse a language with its implementation! The people working on this all hail from the C/Java lineage and I don't know...may be fast but generally C is a hassle and Java is too dumbed-down. Trying to fix the mistakes they made in the past. Wonderful...
- Rudolf Olah
For god's sake, who cares what the syntax looks like? What matters is whether it solves useful problems or not. It's designed to clean up a lot of the problems stemming from the legacy of C[++], compile fast, execute fast, be appropriate for systems programming, and have good primitives for concurrency. Those are good goals in my book, and they fill a much-needed niche.
- Joel Webber
I do care.
- Ozgur Demir
I thought it was kinda weird the way the video highlighted how fast it compiles. Compilation speed is great, and the vid was impressive, but I've never seen a language launch where that was highlighted so much. "Look, it compiles fast!!!!!! Oh, BTW, we are trying to solve concurrency".
- Nick Lothian
@Ozgur: Sure, but as long as the syntax isn't broken in some way, or ambiguous (VB6 comes to mind), it's surely much less important than what the language is capable of (compile speed, execution speed, what can be expressed, etc). Syntax seems like a distant third- or fourth-most important aspect to me.
- Joel Webber
@Nick: That kind of struck me as well when they first started talking about it. But when you consider that your main alternative is C++, and that compile times can get absolutely brutal (try compileing WebKit sometime -- it takes hours), it makes a bit more sense.
- Joel Webber
@Joel. yea, I can't say you're wrong and I am right.. these are all preferences.. for me, syntax is an important aspect in terms of code readability that's why I care since it becomes a real pain in the ass on a midsize or bigger project.
- Ozgur Demir
This thread is degenerating into rubbish. You know who you are - please stop.
- Christopher Galtenberg
from iPhone
@Joel yeah, I guess. But compiling something like that should take hours! Back when men were men and compiling a kernel on my 386 was a major undertaking success was so much more satisfying! Who are these young'uns Thompson & Pike and what do they know anyway!
- Nick Lothian
Yeah, really! Real programmers had to swap disks multiple times to run a Pascal compiler on Hello World for the C64 :)
- Joel Webber
Yeah, compilation speed doesn't mean too much. Would be nicer if they focused on the *thinking* part with regards to concurrency.
- Rudolf Olah
Compilation speeds mean a lot when you're dealing with the google programming model. This is a company that invented code search for internal use. (See as an example: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7613693...)
- Piaw Na
Luckily it isn't named "goo".
- Peng-Toh
@Piaw - nice example. I only skipped through it, but I can't see why something like that makes compilation speed critical. It seems similar in concept to static analysis - more speed is good, but the lack of speed doesn't break the model.
- Nick Lothian
@nlothian: static analysis and compilation both include parsing. efficient parsing of C++ is rather hard to achieve, due to messy nature of multiply included files and macro substitutions. if code analysis takes hours (ok, half-hours), it ceases to be useful.
- 9000
Lack of speed totally breaks the model. When you can get your analysis and search tools to respond in sub 500ms, the model for coding completely changes. You no longer remember where files are --- you just search for them and expect the search tool to remember for you. This enables massive code sharing, and allows small teams to be extremely effective, since they can now leverage other teams' work.
- Piaw Na
Must be Google..
- ★ Soner Gönül
Why compile time matters: http://xkcd.com/303/
- Robert Felty
Use an IDE for iterative development of the components you are working on, make modules independent through interfaces, do a nightly build so the bulk of build products like libraries etc are available, then these compile issues go away. Justifying based on compile times is so 1990s.
- Todd Hoff
Ah, but how exactly does your IDE allow you to do iterative development quickly? You have to be able to compile individual modules (whatever form they take) quickly enough to make this feasible. If you take C[++] as the de facto systems language, it fails badly on this front, because the only way to share interfaces among modules is via the preprocessor, and precompiled headers only get...
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- Joel Webber
Poor Frank McCabe and his ten year old "go!" language: http://www.reddit.com/r...
- Daniel J. Pritchett
C++ allows for abstract base classes. No implementation. Compose systems this way and you minimize recompilation. And I'm assuming the initial subsystems are developed in a mocked unit tested environment and then within a very narrow scope, so interface changes are minimized until the system test phase is reached. The compilation argument would make sense if they were talking about a...
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- Todd Hoff
Sure, but you still have to define the abstract base class (interface) in a header file somewhere, and individual .cc files end up depending upon a large number of these in practice, so that any change to one of them tends to force you to recompile a lot of object files. As you say, there are some ways of reducing this effect, but in practice large C++ systems end up taking forever and a day to compile (try compiling WebKit; a lot of Google code has this problem as well).
- Joel Webber
C++ templates are also implemented badly, which makes compilation slow.
- Piaw Na
Only if you don't compose your system well Joel. I've worked very comfortably on systems that took 12 hours to compile across a cluster of 32 build machines. I'm not saying I don't want a language where you don't have to go through all these hoops, but to say it's inevitable in C++ is not so, you just have to beat make into submission and not create a big ball of mud, which is good practice anyway.
- Todd Hoff
@Todd: Fair enough -- I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, and I have also worked on fairly large C++ code bases (mostly games) without everything going to hell in a handbasket. But you have to admit that it would be nice if you didn't have to wait many hours (or use a Google-sized build cluster) for compiling your code :)
- Joel Webber
I've worked "comfortably" on projects where the full rebuild time was a few hours on my local machine, but I can't say that I was ever working optimally. Even in the instant-on environment I'm working in now, there are occasionally changes that I have to wait a full build/deploy cycle to test and it almost always takes me 2-5x as long to solve problems in that case. You can multitask while you wait, but it's just not the same (IMHO, of course).
- Matt Mastracci
I think 12 hours to compile across 32 build machines is unacceptable. I want instant compilation. You know, the kind that Turbo Pascal used to have.
- Piaw Na
I think that there's a dramatic improvement in developer productivity when the compile-link-run cycle time goes from a minute to a second.
- Gary Burd
Piaw before you say what is or is not unacceptable you might want to take the trouble to know what problem is being solved. Turbo Pascal to a real deployed product like a unicycle is to the 5th fleet.
- Todd Hoff
But any, good, modern IDE compiles incrementally and continuously so there's no noticeable compilation step. Compilation shouldn't be a _highlight_ of a new language. It's nice and the ease of building developer tools is a benefit to uptake but, in the end, the language has to be something developers _want_ to read and write since we have to look at it so much. Syntax matters. It's why so much sugar is added to languages.
- ·[▪_▪]·
As stated before, modern IDEs don't scale to google-sized code bases. Go is not designed for your tiny projects that fit in main memory. It's designed for large scale development projects.
- Piaw Na
@piaw You seem to assume that Google doesn't organize it's code. Any good project, regardless of size, especially for large projects, should be modularized. If Google has to load every piece of code into the IDE, they have more serious problems than Go will resolve. Trust me, I work on a project with tens of millions of lines of Java code and i've been responsible for analysis and...
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- ·[▪_▪]·
Well, Piaw actually did write a fair amount of the code at Google, so I'd give him a little more credit :) I know plenty of people at Google who *do* use Eclipse/IntelliJ on Google's code base (myself included), but you do have to break it into manageable chunks to make it work. That's sometimes easier said than done, to be fair.
- Joel Webber
When I worked for a large company in the internet advertising business, I found that dependency creep was a constant problem. I spent more time than I would have liked trying to get fast compilation time in Eclipse/IntelliJ. I welcome a tool that helps with this problem.
- Gary Burd
"I have already used the name for *MY* programming language" http://code.google.com/p...
- Fulaan, inna Hebel
I think that time spent pruning and organizing your code and library is best instead spent working on better tools that make your development environment super fast and capable of scaling. That's the way Go was designed.
- Piaw Na
If you want fast turnaround, eliminate compiles all together. There's no reason why a language can't support a double or triple hybrid model. Look at a language like Factor, image based like Smalltalk, you write a function, and can patch it into the live running app instantaneously, where it will run interpreted in combination with compiled code, until the runtime gets around to...
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- Ray Cromwell
I noticed that Go has an interpreter work-in-progress living in its source. The start of an instant-run mode?
- Matt Mastracci
Smalltalk had a massive sharing problem --- you couldn't ever replicate what was in your Smalltalk image on someone else's machine. Eliminating compiles would be nice, but again, if you're solving problems at a massive scale, interpretation would be an order of magnitude loss in execution speed that you can't afford. That said, a Go interpreter would not be out of the question, or even hard to build.
- Piaw Na
@Piaw - was just reading "Coders at Work" this week and Ingalls (http://www.codersatwork.com/dan-ing...) was saying the exact opposite. He said he pauses his Mac machine and sends his Smalltalk system state over to a Windows developer and they start right up, debug, and fix.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
The point is not to have the production version run in interpretation, the point is to increase developer productivity by allowing a fast edit-run cycle, production builds can take as long as necessary. When you're in development mode, you often don't need full execution speed, you are checking for correctness. Take GWT for example. You can make changes to Java source, hit reload, and...
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- Ray Cromwell
What does production mean? An experiment that processes a large number of records so you can decide how to proceed with your line of research is hardly production, but it nevertheless has to execute fast over large amounts of data. You might think that it doesn't matter how quickly that runs, but the difference between 10 minutes and 100 minutes is huge in terms of productivity.
- Piaw Na
Yes, if you copied the entire image over, you could replicate a smalltalk VM. The problem is, then you have to live with the other guy's image and customizations. Smalltalk is great, but it really was designed as a single-user environment.
- Piaw Na
It depends how often you are running experiments over huge datasets like that. In the case where I needed some experimental data to proceed, yes, if after every edit, you had such an experiment, then maybe programming in a neutered language would be worth it, but I'd say that for the majority of developers, this is not the case, so being able to run unoptimized builds/interpretation...
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- Ray Cromwell
No, it is not for everyone. It's very much for large scale datasets that are encountered somewhat frequently on the WWW.
- Piaw Na
Go (http://golang.org/) looks pretty cool. I love channels and interfaces. It captures a lot of the things I wanted to see in a modern programming language.
metalerik, David Foucher, timepilot and 12 other people liked this
Interesting that "goroutines" are implemented with heap-allocated stack segments. Does that mean continuations are a possibility? You could use them to implement a kind of exceptions.
- Gabe
Dear Google: Please get rid of this page. Just add a setting so I can say "always use Google Reader for RSS feeds." (Or vice versa, or an option to always ask if someone uses both.) I've been going through this extra step for years now, and I am really tired of it.
Michael Hocter, John, Alastair Montgomery and 48 other people liked this
They want us to use the google page. It is really just spam.
- Mark Horne
If you use Firefox, BetterGReader extension let's you set a preference to bypass the choice.
- LogEx
I'm pretty sure there's a gmscript for just skipping this page. Then again, it's just another click ;)
- Fulaan, inna Hebel
LE, I might have to add BetterGReader just to do that.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
annoyed the hell out of me too, but then i stopped using greader
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
I really wish they would kill it. I *NEVER* want to add a feed to my google homepage. I never go there.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Exactly, Rah. I've never chosen the Homepage option. Google knows everything about me, they should know by now that this page is worthless to me. And seriously, now with Google's profiles and centralized accounts, a persistent setting for this should be a piece of cake to implement.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Agree, always on the Reader! Great tool!
- John Tastad
Yes please!
- Summer
Agreed!
- Kevin Mohr
Feedly will skip this page for you ;)
- Mitchell McKenna
Does it, Mitchell? I have Feedly installed at home, but I haven't noticed. I use Chrome at work, though.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Google Homepage just isn't needed for anything. I wish they'd pull the plug on that thing.
- Matthew DeVries
that is why i use the google reader "subscribe" bookmarklet ;-) (edit: you can find it in your google reader settings)
- Stanislas Jourdan
Jandy: there is a preview of feedly for chrome. If you are interested, please send me an email at edwink@devhd.com and I will send you an invite.
- Edwin Khodabakchian
Agreed!!
- Chris Myles
+
- zeroinfluencer
it's like you read my mind or something!
- Loc
X-tra like!
- Smeerch
i use better greader and it skips this for me.
- Liz
Edwin, that's awesome! I'd love to give it a try - I'll shoot you an email.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Dragon Age can be summed up thusly: it's an MMORPG without the hassle and bother of the MMO part. Otherwise, it feels, plays, and acts as if it were.
TheIndustryStandard, Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF, Alex Scrivener and 3 other people liked this
Did you catch the dragon yet?
- Josh Haley
Make that sound dirtier Josh, bet you can't
- Matthew DeVries
Totally disagreed. Awesome game, but doesn't play very much like any MMO I've ever played...
- Internet's Tad
Honestly, it looks and feels like LOTRO to me.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Looks similar, but doesn't play or feel like it at all. Lotro is a pretty open world - very little zone loading. You can chose to do pretty much whatever. Dragon Age has a richer, more personal story and you have a lot fewer choices. Not nearly as much button pushing in Dragon Age - combat has a much more automatic feel to it.
- Internet's Tad
I'm just being obstinate this morning :D
- Internet's Tad
I just meant as an overall feel, Tad. You're being obstinate this morning!
- Akiva Moskovitz
WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Akiva Moskovitz
In stereo - Where available
- Matthew DeVries
Damn Akiva. Are you sure we're not like twins or something? o.0
- Internet's Tad
from fftogo
Epic spookery!
- Akiva Moskovitz
Great systems presentation by Jeff Dean: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/project... (I especially like slides 23-35)
Sean Kelly, Bruce Lewis, Andres Montano and 114 other people liked this
really liked the numbers, much better than just saying "registers < memory < disk"
- Ertuğ Karamatlı
I liked this part: ---Users specify high-level desires: *“99%ile latency for accessing this data should be <50ms” *“Store this data on at least 2 disks in EU, 2 in U.S. & 1 in Asia”
- Ahmet Alp Balkan
really good document thx
- Nicolas Dufour
Don't just like it - read it.
- Hayes Haugen
I would love to see more information like this :) Ideas on where I should be looking (other than FF of course!)
- Susan Beebe
Interesting stuff. I'm downloading the PDF now...
- Tyson Key
FriendFeed update. Paul Buchheit wrote me and said he's been very sick the past few days. That might explain why he hasn't engaged the way we want. He also offered to do an interview with me to discuss the future of FriendFeed and what they are doing at Facebook soon. We're working that out, hopefully soon (but might not be until November sometime)
Garin Kilpatrick, Mitchell Tsai, Bertrand Doux and 115 other people liked this
I don't know if that's a good idea for you, Robert. You might be better off making a clean break from FriendFeed.
- Bruce Lewis
Thanks Robert, that's great news! Paul, hope you feel better...
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Bruce: FriendFeed=Facebook. So, I'm interested in what he's doing and I'm a big fan of Facebook's. Twitter needs some competition. The Fail Whale is getting to me.
- Robert Scoble
Another reliable update.
- ashish
I know it's a stretch but can we gather specific questions for Paul to answer?
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
When other sites like twitter come out with new features, you want to be at the front of the excited crowd. FriendFeed will make you into that curmudgeon who's always saying, "So what? They did that two years ago at FriendFeed."
- Bruce Lewis
I guess the rusty wheel gets the oil...
- Cjay
Cjay: I've been working on this interview since before Facebook bought FriendFeed. :-)
- Robert Scoble
manielse: well, the interview isn't on 100% yet and now that I've talked about it in public who knows what will happen? But if it does happen of course we'll get you involved.
- Robert Scoble
Cjay: I might be a rusty wheel, but remember two things: 1. I put many many thousands of hours into FriendFeed before the sale, bringing my audience over here at great risk to my personal brand. Lots of "experts" like Mike Arrington told me I was wrong to do that. 2. I'm still here.
- Robert Scoble
OMGAWWWWW he still has "it"
- sofarsoShawn
oh im sorry Robert thats "The squeaky wheel gets the oil first" hehe, wasnt saying your are getting old or anything.
- Cjay
sofarso: I never lost it. :-)
- Robert Scoble
But yes I would agree that allowing and or resting your personal branding on a service thats based on a cloud application with it's roots depending on a social network model is very risky.
- Cjay
Cjay: actually it's not. It just looks risky.
- Robert Scoble
To those giving Scoble crap for being on FF, aren't you tired of that? You all have been doing that for at least a year. Enough. For us on FF, we'd love to see an interview, thanks.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Paul, get well soon
- Shane
Well, I'm done for tonight. Thanks you Robert for the chat...
- Cjay
Good luck for the interview, Robert and thanks for the update. Hope Paul gets better soon.
- Mahendra (SkepticGeek)
Thanks everyone. I'm actually not "very sick" though, just "kind of sick" -- it's mostly messing up my sleep.
- Paul Buchheit
from iPhone
be well!
- Laura Norvig
Chicken soup - but stay away from those soul books ;) Hope you're up to speed soon, Paul.
- Micah Wittman
Looking at the time-scale, doesn't that actually answer the question? You don;t wait THAT long to deliver good news or to debunk a false rumour that killings your platform (well, Zucks platform).
- Jim Connolly
Paul - sorry to hear that! (it's 2:30 am here, I can empathize with your sleep problem)
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
Eric, sorry if it sounded like I was giving him crap. That wasn't my intention. I think Scobleizer has a serious career decision to make: http://ourdoings.com/ourdoin...
- Bruce Lewis
The problem i see is that social network cloud applications seem to live in peoples heads rent free.
- Cjay
Hope you feel better, Paul.
- Kol Tregaskes
That will be an interesting interview, thanks for posting this update.
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
Can't wait for the interview!! Thanks to you and Paul for keeping us updated!!
- Rosemary Sorg
:?
- CW™
Robert, you will never leave FriendFeed as long it is here:)
- Patrik Johansson
+1 Patrik
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Robert, do you think Twitter is too unreliable or do you think the competition is healthy?
- John Cass
Feel better soon, Paul!
- Ruchira S. Datta
The walrus has eaten the oysters: http://bit.ly/nJrdl
- Michael Slattery
There was a lot of chatter about the future of FriendFeed this weekend. The short answer is that the team is working on a couple of longer-term projects that will help bring FriendFeedy goodness to the larger world. Transformation is not the end. Consider this the chrysalis stage -- if all goes well, a beautiful butterfly will emerge :)
Alfredo, Fabrizio, david beckwith and 243 other people liked this
What is transforming... FriendFeed, or the idea of FriendFeed?
- Christopher Galtenberg
Thanks for the update, Paul!
- Anne Bouey
THANK YOU!
- teh Dork Knight aka Kenny
Fabulous News :)
- Susan Beebe
Noticed the "leaked" Facebook UI screenshots and the groups blog post today, and both seem FriendFeed inspired: nice to see Facebook trying to bring the stuff we like about FriendFeed to a larger audience.
- Mark Trapp
To Robert Scoble: I told you so ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Sounds like they're adding some of FF's features to FaceBook. yay
- Internet's Tad
from fftogo
Mark - got link?
- Susan Beebe
Thanks Paul :)
- ashish
Devil is in the details: "couple of longer-term projects that will help bring FriendFeedy goodness to the larger world" == Facebook projects with FriendFeed-like elements == no work on FriendFeed itself.
- EricaJoy
Paul, FriendFeed rocks as Gmail does ;)
- Orlando Pozo
Thanks for the update, the more you communicate, the less we have to speculate.
- Peter Hoffmann
The fact that these improvements are coming to Facebook and not friendfeed will not sway those who like friendfeed but dislike Facebook.
- Alex Scoble
Thank you Paul for bringing "FriendFeed goodness to the larger world" -- THAT sounds awesome!!
- Susan Beebe
integration with facebook?
- Rocco Galluzzo
@Alex Scoble: That's true
- Jorge Escobar
I hope out of the chrysalis emerges an infested Kerrigan. That'd be awesome http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki...
- Ivan Kirigin
Thanks Mark, much appreciated... I'll check those out
- Susan Beebe
+1 Ivan :)
- Benjamin Golub
But we knew this was the deal the moment the full details of the purchase of friendfeed by Facebook became public.
- Alex Scoble
Yeah, I don't give a crap about Facebook. I want to know about FriendFeed.
- Rochelle
Is it the interface people dislike about Facebook or the people they're friends with on Facebook? I can imagine being able to import all your subscribers from FriendFeed and have them in a separate group that doesn't interact with other groups you may have on Facebook.
- Cristo
sadly, no one with any power seems to care about FF anymore.
- Joe Silence is not dead
I'm glad to hear this. I prefer FriendFeed to Facebook any day of the week.
- Nathan Clayton
And the answer for me would be some of both. I have real life friends and family that I don't necessarily want to get into the same discussions with as I do with people here.
- Cristo
And there's your answer, Rochelle. friendwho? friendwhat now? Oh, you mean Facebook! (No I mean friendfeed) friendwho? (rinse, lather, repeat)
- Alex Scoble
there are some ui differences (and i tend to prefer friendfeed in those cases) but i have friended quite a few FF people in FB and the experience is remarkably similar in many ways.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Another big difference is I don't think you get the same FOAF interaction on Facebook as on FriendFeed.
- Cristo
yep
- Jason Wehmhoener
I hope my FaceBook peeps are ready for the FriendFeed firehose ... past experience would say that they're in for a shock.
- Crutis
Thanks for the transparency on the Friendfeed "ghost town" matter Paul. Much appreciated.
- Alex Knight
Thanks Paul... bring the special sauce to Facebook: http://blogs.zdnet.com/weblife...
- Andrew
I like the "chrysalis stage" analogy - sounds cool.... goes an looks for FF goodness butterfly!
- Susan Beebe
Good to know that FriendFeed still has some fight left; hope that translates into a viable and sustainable platform/utility for the masses (though I quite enjoy the close-knit, uber-geek community that it's become).
- Christian
I don't like the chrysalis analogy. The butterfly emerges from the chrysalis and buggers off leaving the shell. Of course, it might then also get eaten by a bird. Tweet, tweet.
- Mark H
Mark LOL nice, ... haha
- Susan Beebe
Note that he didn't say that FriendFeed.com was going away, only that they're diverted to bringing it to a much larger audience
- Jesse Stay
The problem is Scoble (Robert) and MG both just sent half of FriendFeed away so most of those that would benefit from this announcement won't even see it.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, I didn't get that from Paul's comment. I read that some of the friendfeed ideas will be going into FB. I like that idea, but I still prefer FF to FB because of the different conversations here that I don't have with friends and family.
- Travis Koger
from iPhone
Yeah, Paul's statement won't help friendfeed. This will just either give people more reason to go to Facebook or find another service entirely.
- Alex Scoble
What Alex and Rochelle said. This sounds like a "we're bringing FF to Facebook" announcement, and I don't give a damn about Facebook. I want to know what's happening HERE. And Cristo, both, but more the interface. I care about the friends I've made here, and I'm connected with many of them now on Facebook as well, but I prefer to interact with them here, because I like it better.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Travis, he didn't say that - you read that, but he didn't say that. I'm willing to bet FriendFeed.com will not go away.
- Jesse Stay
As much as I agree about Scoble and MG driving people away, they have also effectively flush out some comment from the FF team.
- Travis Koger
from iPhone
Travis, there are better ways of getting the FF team to comment
- Jesse Stay
:( I quite liked the caterpillar.
- Nick Lothian
I think it's the opposite, the butterfly is becoming this crawling caterpillar :)
- Jorge Escobar
Oh I don't think FF will go away, and damn will hope it doesn't either!
- Travis Koger
from iPhone
What I do see is more Facebook integrated into the FriendFeed environment - I think that's a good thing
- Jesse Stay
The critical difference between Facebook and FriendFeed is the social model. With Facebook as it is today, you need to be mutual friends to see each others content. There is a "fan page" model but it is oriented toward "publishing/celebrity" rather than information sharing. FriendFeed has an asymmetric model like Twitter, where you can easily discover someone's content without any "friend" gesture whatsoever, and you can follow without friending. This makes the converation more discoverable, and useful..
- Adina Levin
Agree Adina.
- Travis Koger
from iPhone
If the integration is bringing public/asymmetric to Facebook, then it will be very useful indeed. If the integration is to add FriendFeed-style service integration into the symmetric/private Facebook model, it will be much less useful - it's more of the same - I'll be able to more easily share updates from youtube or last.fm or delicious to my friend network, but be unable to discover new people and infomation.
- Adina Levin
Adina: And unless Facebook goes radically toward that model, it won't suffice for me. I could not care less about their upcoming redesigns.
- Christopher A Carr
@Jesse - I can't see any sign that they are working on FriendFeed at all. All the indications are that the FF team is now working on Facebook, and only Facebook. That's great for Facebook, and I'm sure they will do wonderful work there. But don't delude yourself that FriendFeed is going to get anything more than critical fixes, and maybe the occasional thing done in someone's spare time.
- Nick Lothian
Butterflies look totally different than caterpillars and they also fly away
- Melanie Reed
Crickets chirping... is this site alive?? :)
- Christopher Galtenberg
+100 Adina. The things I like best about FriendFeed (easy content/people discovery, FoaF, asymmetrical following and being followed) are completely opposite to Facebook's core model. That's why as much as people keep talking about Facebook adding FF-like features, I don't see the REAL FF core features making it over, because the mindset is different.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
I don't see this announcement as anything new, or as reassuring. We knew from the time of the acquisition that there would be would be some movement of FF capabilities into FB. The real question is whether this means absorption of FF into FB or attracting the FB user base into FF. The comment about "bring[ing] FriendFeedy goodness to the larger world" still leaves that question open.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
+1 everything Alex Scoble has said. Friendwhat? What's a feed? Who uses RSS anymore? We've got PubSubWTFOMGBBQ now!
- Mr. Gunn
Agree with Jandy on +100 Adina.
- Amy℠
Also, I agree with Jandy and Adina's comments.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Nick, Paul just said they're working on other projects right now. That still doesn't mean FriendFeed is going away. I'm not deluding myself at all. I'm telling everyone else they're deluding themselves by assuming it's going away. All the FriendFeed team is still using FriendFeed, and Paul just tried to give us comfort not to worry. For some reason we all don't want to believe him. It's actually kind of amusing.
- Jesse Stay
I wonder what the powers that be mean by "FriendFeedy goodness"? Is it understood what WE like about it vs. FB?
- Amy℠
Paul - Wishing you all the best as you tend your new butterfly garden :) I'll be here to enjoy them!
- Susan Beebe
Jesse: "For some reason we all don't want to believe him." <-- Don't want to believe what? He didn't really say anything.
- Christopher A Carr
This is not the news that Friendfeed fans were looking for.
- Vezquex: God of FF
The issue isn't belief that they are going to do something. The question is what they are going to do, and whether that will continue the core value of FriendFeed, which is not just information aggregation but discoverability.
- Adina Levin
I know more about the "Last Days" and heaven than I know about what's going to happen to FriendFeed as we have come to know it than was given in your rather cryptic answer, Paul. :) And while that may not be a fair comparison (God actually gave details and signs), there is something definitely not forthcoming about your response. A person usually withholds details that affect another...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Melanie, in other words, Paul works for a technology company in Silicon Valley that doesn't disclose future features, products, and services until they are ready.
- Cristo
Hopefully this helps to quiet all of the "friendfeed is dying" talk. Because this thread proves ff is alive and well.
- Garin Kilpatrick
@Jesse - I read it differently to you. To me, Paul is saying "We are taking what we were working towards on FriendFeed, and trying to bring that goodness to a bigger audience". No one is claiming they are going to shut down FF.
- Nick Lothian
@Jesse - Want to make a bet on the number of new features added to FF before the end of the year?
- Nick Lothian
Cristo, to deliver some straightforward talk is not about giving away company details. If you have a product that is original and stands on its own, you don't need to refer to it as a "butterfly". Many companies even promote something new and upcoming especially to their loyal user base. It gives a signal. A proper one. It tells your users and future users enough so that they can make an informed decision about what they want to do instead of keeping them on tenderhooks
- Melanie Reed
"the chrysalis stage in most butterflies is one in which there is little movement" (via wikipedia) So if you follow that metaphor then eventually FriendFeed will go through a metamorphosis -- that means it's not dead... really how hard can it be to get what he's saying?
- Chris Heath
Its pretty hard :) The burning question is if they are putting FF goodness in to the walled gardens that are Facebook or are they bringing FF openness to FB too. I think the people here want the open forums that are FF not the closed ones that are FB. If FB is going hybrid with both walled gardens and open forums that would be OK too. People on FF want open forums... like Twitter and FF... without the crude interface that is Twitter and without the uncertainty that is FF now.
- Ed Millard
Facebook is gonna have to rip off much of the privacy to maximize their product in the real-time web world. I am going to assume FF goodness is going to be applied to FB :) *crosses fingers*
- Susan Beebe
Just a thought... why does "longer-term projects that will help bring FriendFeedy goodness to the larger world" JUST mean facebook.com? What I get from this is that they are working on a range of things, maybe bringing the FriendFeed sauce to a range of sites, powered by the Facebook back end. Who knows what that means. A FriendFeed service powered by FacebookConnect? Also to......
more...
- Johnny Worthington
LMFAO. Johnny++
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
FB needs to leave the privacy for the walled garden and the inner circle. Their current user base likes that. They just need a second feed that is an open forum and you can talk there without it bleeding in to your inner circle feed.
- Ed Millard
Seems like the inner circle is breaking down some now, what with parents and other relatives friending teenagers. I'm guessing the information posted on the walls these days is not as private. Is there a way on FriendFeed to limit what on your wall can be seen by particular people and groups?
- Cristo
Yes, but blocking doesn't work so well since you can just use Chrome's Incognito mode to get around it.
- Alex Scoble
Translation: if you haven't switche to Facebook yet, you better do it now so you can get a good vanity URL.
- David Chartier
from iPhone
I don't know what all the fuss is about. But could we have the long answer too, please?
- Laura Norvig
Although I'm interested, FB != FF. I don't see how the two mix in a way that makes me feel otherwise. Mixing audiences is not a good thing for me (with a few exceptions) and I know others share the same thought.
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Did anyone notice that Robert Scoble didn't comment on this thread? What does this mean? Does it mean Robert Scoble won't exist soon? He must be working on a Monday afternoon, no? ;)
- Cristo
Paul, will FF be here in 1 year, 5 years?
- Robert Higgins
Robert, will you and I be alive in 5 years?
- Cristo
Thanks for the update Paul..
- Chris Myles
Cristo I am funking nobody, I would like Paul to quantify his post. Simple. Will FF be here in 1 year? Will FF be here in 5 years?
- Robert Higgins
Robert, I was trying to make the point that he might not know and can't predict what will happen over time.
- Cristo
IMO friendfeed shoud attract more general audience... Facebook and twitter are having more general users. Most of the FF users are tech bloggers or those who needs aggregation services... I dont know it's just my feeling or not . but this is my impression on FF. but it's great service.. the features are too good... but we will roam were we meet our friends... thats most of the people are into twitter and FB.
- Sarath
Sarath, is there a place you can get away from tech bloggers? :)
- Cristo
Ohhhh a perrrttty butterfly, I'm moist with anticipation.
- sofarsoShawn
Glad to hear it, Paul.
- WorldofHiglet
Cristo: i almost made the same observation an hour or two ago when i first read through this posting and its comments. I was skimming and kept seeing alex, alex, alex... and thinking to myself... where's Robert!?!
- Chris Heath
Great news. Thanks! friendfeed team. :D
- 'Like' robot (frɐnc)
@Sarath - I have a lot more in common with the people I've met here on FriendFeed than FB or Twitter. Twitter is too hard to search, and FB (and Twitter to a good extent) is driven by the people you know in RL (and unfortunately I don't have nearly as much in common in RL with my family, co-workers and acquaintences as I do with people scattered all over the world who I have met on FF)....
more...
- Lindsay
I think that in his cryptic statement he means, and a lot of people here agree with me, that more Facebook's going to get more FriendFeedy. Which doesn't mean that FF still isn't dead or doomed. After all, he works for Facebook now. FriendFeed=open forum, Facebook=walled garden, totally opposite master metaphors; but I don't think Zuckerberg gets it, and FF belongs to Zuckerberg now. So this is really about FB; FF's still in limbo. Still, some FF people friended me at FB, and I put them in a special list.
- Dennis Jernberg
@FF-team keep on rocking :). BTW I also think it's really cool you guys open-sourced tornado.
- alfred westerveld
+1 what alfred said, and good to hear words like "longer-term" & "beautiful" coming straight from The Walrus - keep that vision strong. Hope all goes well for FF team doing some good re-inventing the Octopus Garden of FB - seems you've got your work cut out for you there! It would be so nice if any way to keep a "simple & pure" form of FriendFeed alive (maintained and developed - more open source?) for us to enjoy, but no worries .... you've simultaneously raised the bar and paved the way for the rest!
- Dan Freeman
Good luck with the development Paul! Hopefully Zuck has some positive insight.
- Garin Kilpatrick
I like butterflies.
- Harold Cabezas
Paul: If someone offered me a bag of money to do what you guys did, I would have done exactly the same (probably a lot faster too). However, it would be nice if you spent an hour answering some of the questions here. It might also give people like me a little more faith, in what used to be your primary project; Friendfeed. You made the best platform on the planet - why not use it to let us know what the heck's going on?
- Jim Connolly
I'm assuming that Facebook wants to keep their roadmap quiet. I respect that but leaving you community in the dark for a brand that the applications stand for community building is rather ironic.
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
SUPER!! I don't Blame ya 1 Darn bit fer Dumpin' FacePOOP Paul!! ;PPP Wait FacePOOP is the Maggot Stage!! ;))
- Billy Warhol
If I can still have all my friends that I have here on friendfeed and share things with them the exact same way, I don't care what "www" address I have to type in to get it. I just hope i don't have to give up any of FF's awesome features! Thanks for the update Paul!
- David Cook
The problem is I don't know whether to wrote an app on your API or not because i'm not sure whether it will all be dropped in the "transformation". Imagine speding late nights and weekends coding something up only for it to be dropped suddenly. Need a decent long term picture. Looking at Cliqset.
- Steven Livingstone-Pérez
Good point Steven - and one of the reasons many of us are spending so little time developing our networks here.
- Jim Connolly
waiting....
- ffcode
ffcode: Good luck with that ;-)
- Jim Connolly
So the changes are at Facebook not FriendFeed, Paul?
- Kol Tregaskes
And good luck to all of your team
- Ozkan Altuner
from iPhone
This is a truly disappointing/concerning post and I think it would have been much better to hold comment until something more tangible could be discussed. Thanks for adding to the confusion/drama Paul.
- Nicholas Kreidberg
yemezler
- MobilAdam
I do care about what happens next, but this is the best news of the day nonetheless ! thanks for giving us updates at last ! and I do hope FF will awaken again ! such a great tool, but letdown since the announcement of the buyback by FB
- laetSgo
will I see this post in my "best of week" email from FF?
- Kirill Bolgarov
If Facebook is going to get fixed, please remember that it needs fixing politically, not just technically. It needs to give people the option to open their data to Google - for instance. A walled garden where the walls are fixed in place sucks.
- Tim Tyler
@Paul, or perhaps an Alien will erupt forth from its stomach? (kidding, kidding!)
- j1m
I can save him! - http://meme.yahoo.com/wrzl...
Harun Topuz, Ahmet Soyata, Telefunken and 171 other people liked this
This is epic!
- D. Eda Goze
from iPhone
FANTASTIC
- R_ C
En son karar değiştirip yukarıdan kurtarması inanılacak şey değil.
- Özer (Wrzl) Dölekoğlu
Kriz anında karar verebilmek diyelim mi buna? Hem de kralı!
- Omer Ekinci
vay be...
- Burak Güven (Cimbakuka)
evlat psikolojisi her daim geçerli...
- zeynep
olağanüstü
- Okan Vardarova
Wow!
- Kol Tregaskes
wow diyorum!! şövalye ruhu diye buna derim ben =)
- utkan alp
This is th coolest...great problem solving...
- Robyn Hawk
Love this video but it makes me a bit sad - the dog that saves him seems a bit freaked out
- Tamara
Anladık kurtardın da ne diye taa oraya sürüklüyorsun ki hayvanı :)
- Yasemin
İşte köpekleri -çoğu- insandan çok sevme sebebim. Çoğu insana kızdığımızda "köpek" deriz ama emin olalım ki çoğu insan köpek kadar fedakar, gururlu, sadık olamaz. Benim köpeğime araba çarptı ve öldü, oradan biliyorum.
- Ergin Eker
peki hayvanlara yapılan bu eziyeti izleyerek gülmek sizce ne kadar etik??
- meral bozucu
kısaca hayvanlara "hayvanlık" yapılıyor.
- Ergin Eker
lütfen bunu kaldırın burdan...
- meral bozucu
ben hayvanlara "hayvanlık" yapılıyor lafımı buradaki mini-görüntü için söylemedim, yanlış anlaşılmasın. hayvanlara işkence yapanlaraydı tamamen sitemim. hayvan savunucusu falan değilimdir ama tabii ki kimse işkence görülmesini istemez. :)
- Ergin Eker
Meral hanım: Gizle dersiniz olur biter.
- Özer (Wrzl) Dölekoğlu
Ben ortada bir eziyet göremedim. Bildiğim kadarıyla pek çok köpek iyi yüzücüdür ve o yavrunun da hemen öyle 1dk'da boğulmayacağından eminim. Zaten yavru eğer batmaya başlarsa eminim ki o köpeğin sahibi elindeki video kamerayı bırakıp gidip hayvancağızı kurtarır.
- Kadirhan
ne eziyeti yav?
- decantee
gizlemekle sorun çözülemez Özer (Wrzl) Dölekoğlu ortada bir sorun varsa bu sorun tartışılmaldır. kadirhan, boğulabilirdi!
- meral bozucu
köpekler doğuştan yüzücüdür diye biliyorum. yeni doğmuş bir köpeğe orası derindir ama kurtarılan köpek en az 3-4 aylık var gibi.
- Ergin Eker
o köpek boğulmaz merak etmeyin, ha saatlerce çırpınıp kenara çıkamazsa yorulup boğulabilir , ama o kadar
- decantee
Yapmayın Allah aşkına ya... http://alkislarlayasiyorum.com/icerik...
- Kadirhan
ha bu arada, sadece köpekler değil bütün hayvanlar (insan dahil) doğduğunda yüzebiliyorlarmış, daha sonra korkuları unutturuyormuş yüzmeyi
- decantee
bakın burda o köpeğin yüzme bilip bilmediğini tartışmıyorum. son derece güç durumda bir hayvanın sizin geyiğinize malzeme olmaması gerektiğine inanıyorum. ve bu videonun buradan kaldırılmasını talep ediyorum. siz hala 3ün 5in hesabındasınız!
- meral bozucu
3 mü 5 mi arkadaşlar karar verelim artık meral haklı
- decantee
Kaldırırsak nasıl tartışılır üzerinde ki? Bu gif (video) sizde ayrı etki yaratmakta ve başkalarında farklı. Bu konuyla alakalı doktor House'ın süper teşhisleri vardır.
- Özer (Wrzl) Dölekoğlu
That dog DOES seem frantic. They were probably two blocks away when he finally stopped dragging the little one.
- MiniMage TKDteacher of FF
puhahaha
- decantee
Oyh meral troll çıktı, hemen bloklana!
- Özer (Wrzl) Dölekoğlu
The @scobleizer is right, as usual, about Twitter lists and the end of Friendfeed. http://scobleizer.posterous.com
Daniel Rowley, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Captain Jack and 11 other people liked this
BREAKING NEWS: Colorado sheriff says criminal charges will be filed in 'balloon boy' case (MSNBC)
Shey, Jamaican of FF, Anne Bouey, Eric Logan and 8 other people liked this
O_o
- Derrick
Word?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
I'd just like to know who is expected to foot the bill for shutting down DIA and having all that law enforcement out and about trying to rescue someone who didn't need to be rescued. ;-)
- Criz
The guy seems to be a piece of work.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
"Attic Boy" -- Bill Maher http://www.usatoday.com/news...
- Eric Logan
I TCP/IP but mostly IP
Darren Heydon, OnuRC, Andrew Speers and 166 other people liked this
Thanks to Ana and the FriendFeed team for the baby tech gear!
- Louis Gray
from email
haha Brilliant BRILLIANT!
- Zee.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
- Mona Nomura
awesome
- Yolanda
How can you not Likey this?
- Charlie Anzman
Awesome! Got one in an Adult XL?
- Anthony K. Valley ©
:D Adorable
- Mo Kargas
beautiful baby
- johnpiercy
We've taken to calling Matthew "Bubba". This outfit, though still a bit roomy, is a 6-month outfit. He's just past three months. Hog.
- Louis Gray
totally freakin love it
- Dustin Harris
Get the outfit here: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts...
- Louis Gray
Best post title today.
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
It's when you check for "packet loss" that there's an issue.
- Chris Brogan
"Technology doesn't solve everything - humans do!" ;-)
- Jesse Stay
from twhirl
Yeah, heart feels like it's smiling.
- michael sean wright
THAT IS FUNNY!! very cute indeed! IP ...ha, ha!!!
- Susan Beebe
Thanks for that - I needed a laugh this morning :-)
- Tim Chemacki
I am still giggling about this.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Hehehehehehe.
- Roberto Bonini
FFundercats moment of win tonight :-)
- mandyvan
I LOVE this.
- Mona Nomura
Oh holy crap. FFundercats hoooooooooooo!
- Akiva Moskovitz
LOVE
- Johnny Worthington
I tried to re-LIKE this. :-D
- Lisa L. Seifert
can we talk about a hand me down program for these shirts for me in a few months? :D
- sean percival
TCP/IP. What's THAT? *non-tech type here*
- Derrick
The source. I bow.
- Josh Haley
Derrick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Rochelle
What? This one is back? :-) Here is an UPDATE: http://www.thegrayeffect.com/2008...
- Louis Gray
This was raised from the dead in order to have you accidentally participate in the FFundercats Moment of WIN...
- xero
Tonight's ffundercat podcast "moment of win"
- Michael W. May
from twhirl
Louis, do you listen to our podcast?
- Josh Haley
bad louis --retroactively
- Amber, Random Time Lord
:)
- Josh Haley
I have seen this in person
- Jesse Stay
the "technology generation" :) lovely baby!
- HollyHobby
Google Wave: Technologically it is impressive but the UI needs work. Email/IM/EtherPad/FriendFeed all work better for me. It also makes me feel like I have no control over it. When you are added to a wave you cannot easily tell who did it. You have to use playback to step through the wave one at a time. This feels like a spam vector to me.
Tomonori Murakami, 'Like' robot (frɐnc), China Internet Rumors and 82 other people liked this
In that picture you'll see I've had to mute many waves to keep my inbox under control. I like a clean inbox. Since it is like email anyone can add you to a wave. But it's more real-time than email, a bit like IM, so it gets annoying. Imagine if anyone could IM you?
- Benjamin Golub
To me, it seems more like a proof-of-concept than an actual product. It has a long way to go before even early adopters embrace it fully which means it's beyond the horizon how long it would be before it begins to infiltrate the business space or the average user space.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'm reminded of the way they handle Gtalk in the browser... sure, you can use it to chat with folks, but web-based Gtalk is nowhere near as compelling or refined as a good desktop IM client, at least IMHO.
- Ken Sheppardson
Oh, I disagree Ken. Gmail chat is the only IM client I use
- Benjamin Golub
Benjamin, in the browser?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva: yup. I don't use Adium or Google Talk or anything like that. Just the little Gmail chat moles. I love it
- Benjamin Golub
Wow. You're the first person I've met who does that. I might give that a go if I didn't have multiple accounts which makes a client like Adium necessary as far as I know.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I use it too through GMail : no intallation required :) On my HTC Phone I use it too :)
- fwed
I only use GTalk through the browser too... I don't even know how to install the client. It's nice and clean, so why do I need the client? I'm in my GMail all day anyway.
- Lindsay
This is correct, but it is a preview.
- Louis Gray
As for Wave, I think it's one of those things where people don't really understand how to use it effectively yet. We're all experimenting and trying to figure it out... when it becomes less of a novelty and more of a background to the way we communicate it will make more sense. But that's another reason it's in closed beta, to help Google figure all that out before they try to release it to people who aren't as willing to put up with the headaches of being the guinea pigs.
- Lindsay
Oh, and one more thing... you can create folders to help keep your inbox clean. I just did that and it makes life a bit easier.
- Lindsay
One of the cool aspects of Wave is the Openness of the platform. Don't like the UI? Write your own!
- Tom Raftery
Many IM systems are more or less open. Anyone can IM me if they know my AIM account. I can simply block them if necessary. It hasn't ever created a problem for me.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Yes Jason but in that case you know who IM'd you. In it's current state it is very difficult to tell who added you to a wave. I understand this is a preview and that other UIs can be built on top of it.
- Benjamin Golub
Is there an option to disable real-time-type? What if things were said that weren't meant to be said?
- brainno722 (Peter)
Benjamin, my take is that people are playing, pushing, experimenting, and that things will calm down eventually as etiquette comes into things :). And Peter, no one can see what you're typing or what you've typed until you add them as participants to your wave (if you're writing a wave solo), and eventually, the "draft" option will be enabled so you can also temporarily hide your typing on a populated wave.
- Adam Lasnik
Also Wave contacts are all of my Google contacts instead of just "My Contacts". There's a lot of people in there that I've just have random encounters with on mailing lists that I don't need in my wave contacts
- Benjamin Golub
I want a communications tool that lowers my anxiety, not blows it through the roof.
- Kevin Fox
Kevin, I remember people saying that about FriendFeed when it first launched
- Jesse Stay
that's my hope - that the Google Wave team can iterate quickly on some of the more annoying social issues like FriendFeed did
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse, that's a very fair point. I remember thinking 'but it just launched today and everyone's here talking about it, so of course it's crazy busy!' Same is probably true with Wave. Looking forward to low tide.
- Kevin Fox
Yeah - can't wait to see what it becomes. I'm also very interested in who (hint, hint) decides to integrate Wave protocol into their own products.
- Jesse Stay
"Email/IM/EtherPad/FriendFeed all work better for me" - I second that. I kind of wanted to try use Wave a bit like Friendfeed (as in link blog + discussions... it would come in handy as Friendfeed is censored here in China), but I don't think it supports that at all. Some people even got annoyed -- "I want to treat Wave as my email client -- don't share my contact details with so many...
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- Philipp Lenssen
Philipp, I fear that the learning period won't get us anywhere as there is no activity for which Wave seems better than other products. Twitter had a successful learning period because it had one initial purpose (status update) which was clear for early adopters and for which Twitter was obviously the "killer app". Later, the community found other purposes for which Twitter was great...
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- Jérôme Flipo
That's a very relevant point, Jérôme
- Stanislas Jourdan
IMO, there's a reason why we differentiate email from IM from document: not only because of technological evolution and limitations but because we want specific tools for specific activities. There may be some situations where one Wave is better than a combo of three tools but I think our long experience with old products will make difficult to change our habits: those habits are very strong as they've been challenged many, many times in the past.
- Jérôme Flipo
Can you give one purpose for which Wave does a better job than one or few existing apps? For this purpose, would you argue with your friends/co-workers to persuade them of Wave's superiority?
- Jérôme Flipo
@Jérôme: Sure thing. Having a long, complicated discussion about almost any topic. Our team has been using it for months internally as a replacement for complex email discussions, especially about design. Email threads of this sort rapidly diverge to total chaos as the number of participants increases. Gmail does its best to try and sort out the quoting context and such, but it...
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- Joel Webber
We've tried just about every combination of shared docs, wikis, bug trackers, IRC, IM, telephones, and VC that you can imagine. And the end result is that wave tends to work better than almost all of them. We even use VC a lot less now -- and even when we do, we usually use waves for notes, sharing code snippets, and such, because it's often better than projecting.
- Joel Webber
Joel, how is it different than an IM room?
- Todd Hoff
An IM room doesn't let you go back and edit anything. During design discussions using Wave, people reply to specific parts, and others use that information to edit the document. You've have to open two windows to get this effect with something like IM + Google Docs. This is amplified by the fact that with gadgets, you can have people drawing diagrams and other stuff inline. I've even...
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- Ray Cromwell
I would also keep in mind that Wave isn't just a client/app, it's a platform+protocol. There is no single email client. You have SMTP+IMAP/POP. Lots of people have built differing client UIs on top of this foundation. If you want EtherPad, you could build a client on top of the Wave protocol probably. You could also do IM too. I would look at Wave as more than just the web app, but try and imagine it as a foundation for Email/EtherPad/FriendFeed/etc.
- Ray Cromwell
Ray: I think that's a pretty important point. People are comparing Wave to "email". They're not comparing it to Outlook, or Thunderbird, or pine, or Gmail, etc. Writing off Wave because you don't like the current preview app is a bit like writing off "email" because you don't like Outlook.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken++
- Chris Heath
Ray that seems a bit like the juicy document mode vs thread mode wars in wikis :-) Thread mode content usually needs to be edited into document mode after a conversation has gone on for a while. Just wondering how you know where the document view is in a conversation? And by protocol that means stanzas for XMPP that encode different payload types and a GUI that knows what do with them? Standardizing that is a cool thing.
- Todd Hoff
@Joel: I see tons of reasons to use Wave (the product and the protocol). What I am skeptical about is late adopters' willingness/reflex to use Wave if they couldn't identify one obvious reason to adopt it during their very first experiences with Wave. I've convinced many friends and co-workers to use Docs in the past two years, but it was very hard: they knew it could be great, they had...
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- Jérôme Flipo
I think you could probably rewind history 30 years and say the same thing about email, Jérôme.
- Ken Sheppardson
The waves should work more as a document. Adhoc communication (chats) should be attached to the wave/blip and not be part of the wave itself. The chats should not only appear in the corresponding wave/blip but also at the involved contacts (chat history). this would keep all the noise off the wave.
- Alexander Rode
I'm still waiting on my invite. Grrr. But the way I really want to test it is as an internal communication system for coworkers, and as an alternative to a learning management system for online classrooms.
- marziah
Army of Darkness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
Ladybug Heather, timepilot, rowlikeagirl and 12 other people liked this
currently watching
- Melissa
from Bookmarklet
Bruce Campbell is the best. LOVE this movie
- Melissa
this is a definite in my faves list, RAP. SO GOOD! :) hee hee
- Melissa
Love love love this movie. Love Bruce Campbell. Can't emphasize LOVE enough.
- Colette
"Hail to the king, baby."
- Joe Silence is not dead
Best...Movie...Theater...Experience...EVER!
- Alex Scoble
i preferred Evil Dead 2. *RUNS*
- Joe Silence is not dead
Google Wave crashes on beach of overhype: http://scobleizer.com/2009... my blog about Wave.
Iván Abrego, Susan Beebe, Hutch Carpenter and 57 other people liked this
I agree with you on this. Been playing with it in the dev preview and now in the released version and until I get people I know on there and reasons to discuss or collaborate then I don't see the value. The concept is excellent, the execution is excellent, I just don't think the product is what people are expecting.
- Keith Bennett
When I first saw the release video of Wave it was clear this wasn't something that would be for you to invite all your friends to. I'm surprised at your harsh review in such a fast manner -- you opened it up to the world of your "friends" to play in the sandbox -- but did you actually have a mission? You actually point out that this has great potential for group work. It's about...
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- Elaine Young, Ph.D
Writing off Wave at this point is a bit like walking into a hardware store, picking up a hammer, walking around the store looking for stuff to hit and declaring "Why would I ever want a hammer? This is a waste of time." For teams and workgroups looking to improve the way they communicate and collaborate, Wave might be a great tool. For others, not so much.
- Ken Sheppardson
Elaine: you are hoping for something more in depth? Come back in a month after things settle out and developers ship some real tools for it. Welcome to our real time world. Why do you assume that normal people will give ANY tool more than an hour before they decide whether it sucks or not?
- Robert Scoble
The amount of hype this thing got will NOT be realized by a collaboration scenario. I had this years ago with Ray Ozzie's tools. Geesh.
- Robert Scoble
since you dont have a use for it, can i haz your invite?
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
Oh, I'm not arguing that it's over-hyped. That's the nature of the real time social media hype echo chamber we live in these days. :-) That's not to say it isn't a cool tool. BTW, I really miss Groove. :-(
- Ken Sheppardson
I won't believe for a second that Google created Wave to be anything less than an entrance into competition with Facebook for mass users. Google does one thing very well for mass usage, Search. The other things are great tools and have a base, but this was a Social Networking play, disguised as a collaboration tool. I think Robert is right, this is NEVER going to match the hype.
- Patrick Boegel
I think you're absolutely right, Robert. I got my invite, all excited, signed up, added a friend, and.... *fizzle*... it's chat, it's IM, it's a bad twitter client... I hope it will evolve into something worthwhile.
- Jan Ole Peek
I always understood wave as the next evolution of xmpp - something google envisaged when they first got their hands on jabber. Something distributed merging the features of instant messaging, forum and newsgroup. It was not aimed at twitter or facebook, it was more aimed at some of the live features of Notes and Groupwise and forums. PS: the hype it got is the same as every time google...
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- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
I've been a wavesandbox user for months and today I got both my wave invite and as it just so happens I also got my threadsy invite. Suffice to say I'm much more excited about threadsy! Why? because it's actually helpful.
- Bob Stewart
It's clearly not a 1:1 replacement for email and its early yet. This platform is made for customization. As soon as the development community catches up with concern/demand then I think Wave will be far more refined and valuable as a productivity tool. I think it's way too early to say its overhyped but it certainly makes for a great blog title :) Have a great time out in HMB with Chase today.
- Jim Goldstein
How about that, you're absolutely right Robert.
- Peter Kruit
I think I mentioned a month ago that people were going to be overwhelmed by this and it may be too soon to launch to the public.
- Jesse Stay
This is one of those times where I'm happy to let the gang of 2000 beat it up before getting in.
- Stuart Miniman
You are in the gang of 2000. Sorry, Stu.
- Louis Gray
Imagine a Twitter network with five people on it, none of whom actually work on any of the same projects you need to finish this week.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Am I the only one who has been puzzled when people started saying "this is gonna be the new facebook/twitter"? I watched the whole 1.5 hour demo video and that thought never crossed my mind, nor did using it with dozens upon dozens of people at a time. The only things I saw them demo was a variety of tasks between a handful of friends or colleagues. Robert's right, when you've got a ton...
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- brendan
I didn't get an invite, so good.
- Jeremy Campbell
from twhirl
pfff who needs an invite anyways...
- sofarsoShawn
Gee I wonder who overhyped it?
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
I collaborate with others to actually do things. Yes, Wave is young, but damn! I see its potential and I declare it awesome.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Google Wave passes the twitter test. Lots of folks didn't get twitter (and still don't) when it first appeared. GW will follow a similar trajectory..geek early adoption and later mass adoption. I like it that people don't quite get GW which means that people will use it in multiple ways, as they do twitter. I project that it will live up to the hype much like the iPhone.
- Jim Posner
Or it'll follow the FriendFeed curve: a few geeks will get it, use it, become dedicated to it, it'll never see mass adoption, then the engineers will get recruited to work on other projects and the technology will just get folded into other systems...
- Ken Sheppardson
My understanding is the intent was to re-invent email. So I see the gmail population eventually ending up on GW. Google as a rule has had few bombs. Certainly the GW platform will evolve (filters) to address some of the concerns Robert has.
- Jim Posner
interesting review, i will have to check it out for myself! twitter(at)locspoc
- Loc
Can't wait to see how the users evolve ways of using it that help to moderate the wave. Appreciate the fact that Robert and others (some of you) are sharing this experience and these diverse reactions.
- Holly Rae, FFer
Agreed, Scoble. I don't see this as a good friendfeed replacement anymore.
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
There is Etherpad and Zenbe ShareFlow. I would wait and see how GoogleWave evolves.
- Wins Fern
Nice to see you present some critical thoughts on this, and I must say that your comments seem very sensible! I would also like to point to services like Etherpad when it comes to real-time collaboration on documents, and I also think there seems to be (potentially) a lot of noise in Google Wave. It will be interesting to see though :-)
- Reidar
Million to one apple is half red, half green - Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news...
Elliott Ng, Felicia Yue, Maggie and 33 other people liked this
"The fruit's striking colouring is thought to be caused by a random genetic mutation at odds of more than a million to one."
- Benjamin Golub
from Bookmarklet
A weirdo like me. I love it!
- MiniMage TKDteacher of FF
I don't believe it's a million to one. I think the tree was Tongue Grafted in such a way that produced the apple.
- Captain Jack
wow, i thought that was photoshopped at first! :P
- Susan Beebe
I wonder if the seeds from that apple have a greater likelihood of producing trees that are also halfers.
- Dan Hsiao
My first thought was the same as Captain Jacks!
- Rachel Lea Fox
Amazing interactive 360-degree panoramic view of the entire night sky | Mail Online - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...
Jason A. Samfield, Christian Hollingsworth, Lumino_GmbH and 100 other people liked this
"A new magnificent 800-million-pixel panorama of the entire sky has been unveiled online today. It was stitched together from 1,200 photos by astronomers at the European Southern Observatory from viewing sites in Chile."
- Benjamin Golub
from Bookmarklet
wow!
- Chris Myles
Oh wow. Totally resharing this, thx!
- Ayşe E.
You're not going to see anything like this in the Northern Hemisphere. This is only the night sky for those south of the equator. But it is cool.
- Nina Jansen
WOW!
- Susan Beebe
LOVE it!!
- Roshan Ramachandran
hmmm didn't supply a link in the article! Ahh its the Daily Mail, to explain to non-UK-ites, the Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of Fox News.
- Toby Graham
http://www.gigagalaxyzoom.org/ for the full thing.
- Otto
Also: High res download here: http://videos.spacetelescope.org/gigagal... (25MB). All images are better when used as desktop wallpaper.
- Otto
wow thats huge! 800 megapixels...
- Matt Ellsworth
Truly beautiful! Makes earthlings so small!
- Cool Wired
wow it's beautiful.
- Benjo Castillo
OK. I've got my wave sandbox account. Now what do I do?
Kamilah Gill, mahjongmi, timepilot and 21 other people liked this
lol, my sentiments exactly :)
- Zee.
it's not that great
- Paul Capestany
Can i be your new best friend. :)
- Don B.
It has a lot of potential. I think it will be a lot more valuable when there are people using it that we know and it is more than random threads we may or may not be interested in.
- Brian Sloane
I am still waiting on an invite. It could make terrific groupware. Wave has the potential to be disruptive in the collaboration space. But.. without a userbase and a use... it is nothing but a fancy demo.
- Dave Senior
I want one, too :(
- Lise
waiting for my invite :/
- lalo
invite plz. kthnx.
- Chris Blau
I can't wait to try it out! It'll only be interesting once everyone has access to it though - until then, it would be kinda like using Twitter without anyone tweeting.
- Brandon Shea
I guess Brandon and Dave are right, there can't be anything interesting about it until more people are using it.
- Robin Ramael
I'm waiting for my invite! Hope it will also come soon!
- Andre
I hope I won the Google Wave lottery in a week! 100,000 chances
- joebrooks
I found Jason Kolb's primer to be particularly helpful. My thoughts (http://siliconangle.net/ver2...) Jason's writeup (http://www.jasonkolb.com/weblog...)
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
I would love to see Facebook (or another NEW social network) integrate with Wave. I think it could really change how people interact on the net. But for that to happen, someone's really going to have to bet big and I don't see that happening yet.
- patrick
As mentioned by others - definitely needs a critical mass of users to be interacting to test it's usefulness. SO Leo - how about one of those precious invites Please :)
- Matt Dell
You've got your Wave- so Wave at everybody.
- Brian O'Connell
I want to add you as a contact, what's you wave adress?
- Denis Dervisevic
Google Wave will only be massive if we all begin to make use of it, including us 'ordinary users' then it'll take off...
- Sandra Large
Yes Leo, invite us all to particapate then we can all judge its usefullness
- Sandra Large
What's your Wave ID? We can Wave together!
- Eric Geller
All I have is a sandbox but you are more than welcome to come play in it.
- Richard Bitting
Will be interesting to hear your opinion on it and whether you feel the lack of any purpose like a lot of people after their first play. I'm not hugely convinvced it will get much better once a lot more people are on it either.
- Lee Stone
You invite me, that's what you do.
- David Sheneman
Hop in the sandbox, Leo!
- Garmon Estes
i've had one for a couple months. don't know what to do with it
- andy brudtkuhl
I filled out my "sandbox approval application" where I (supposedly) just pick my username and should have my account ready to go in moments but never received any information from Google. I even e-mail whoever I could find with regards to Wave support and never heard back from them. It was very disappointing.
- Brandon Blattner
Awful Programming Advice - http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/69753...
Anton Yuzhaninov, Haris bin Ali, Vincio and 34 other people liked this
"Subclassing is not an end in and of itself, it's a technique which is occasionally handy. And I'll let you in on a little secret - I personally almost never use subclassing. It's not that I one day decided that subclassing is bad and that one should avoid it, it's that as I got better at coming up with simple designs I wound up using it less and less, until eventually I almost stopped using it entirely. Subclassing is, quite simply, awkward. Any design which uses subclassing should be treated with skepticism. Any design which requires subclassing across encapsulation boundaries should be assumed to be a disaster."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
I tend to agree, at least about the "subclassing is generally bad" part.
- Paul Buchheit
especially true in duck typed languages where you don't need subclassing for polymorphism
- Karl Rosaen
"Occasionally handy" sounds spot on to me. OO languages often lead people to overemphasize inheritance.
- Bruce Lewis
Subclassing seems to be necessary when you are using a library of third party components in a non-duck-typed language and you encounter requirements that one of your components doesn't support. Sucks when it happens, but what else are you supposed to do?
- Jason Wehmhoener
Meh. I disagree, but only provisionally. Subclassing examples are uniformly bad. Subclassing in practice tends to be bad because it's done either a) by newbs or b) by people who've not written lots of OOP, or c) by people who've never had to maintain anything. I've written plenty of good cases of subclasses, which turned out to be extremely handy. The problem with subclassing is that...
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- Otto
Otto++
- Claudio Cicali ♋
I think one should be careful to separate sub-typing from subclassing, and interface inheritance vs implementation inheritance, and also virtual dispatch (C++/Java) vs multimethods vs Haskell-style typeclasses. Subclassing as a notion is too broad to apply a brush with all the cons. Implementation inheritance, for example, is usually used to save delegation boilerplate and allow 'hooks'...
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- Ray Cromwell
I noticed that implementation inheritance is explicitly excluded from noop: http://code.google.com/p/noop/. I do find it amusing that the language which might have actually had the "best" design for OO programing was Visual Basic..
- Nick Lothian
Otto, I would use "subclassing User objects based on login method" as a good example of misusing inheritance. What if Users vary in other ways, are you going to create subtypes of each one? The login method should not determine the type of user, but should probably be its own object (with a generic login interface perhaps).
- Paul Buchheit
I think standard OODA principles (which are rarely followed) would advise against putting responsibility for knowing how to log in on a User object. Login code must typically be privileged and depending on security mode (sandboxed vs capability based) you wouldn't necessarily want privileged code inside of user, which is likely an object that has many consumers.
- Ray Cromwell
As much as I generally avoid subclassing, the one place where I used it most effectively was a Shape class that I wrote for a vector drawing program. I didn't have a Square class, but you can be damn sure that Ellipse and Rectangle were closely related -- the only difference is the Paint() method! And why wouldn't RoundedRect be a subclass of Rectangle?
- Gabe
I don't do a lot of OO programming, but last year I was teaching a python for linguists class, and we did cover OO some. I used an example of a bird class, with a subclass for penguins, in which the fly() method was overwritten. Is this example just as bad as the rectangle and square? Do people agree with the comment that a subclass should have all the same properties as the parent class (specifically that width = height for a square, but not a rectangle)?
- Robert Felty
Rob, I tend to think that subclassing is good for when you want to describe an object that's just like some other object, just with a few differences. Why write a whole new Square class? Just take a Rectangle and override Height and Weight to make sure they're always the same.
- Gabe
If I were teaching beginners, I would just tell them to not use subclassing. People learning to program should focus on learning to program, not learning a set of language features.
- Paul Buchheit
SICP agrees with you, Paul.
- Bruce Lewis
Would you teach them to use objects and interfaces?
- Cristo
Not to start with, but certainly before subclassing.
- Paul Buchheit
If you were teaching beginners, why would the word subclassing ever enter into their vocabulary?
- Gabe
I'd tell them to start with Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs :)
- Ray Cromwell
But Ray, that book uses a weird language, Scheme. Would you use a web site written using Scheme?
- Bruce Lewis
^Is that even possible? LOL did Scheme in freshman year, hated it
- LANjackal
The Syracuse University CS program used Scheme as the first course back in the early 80s. it was an interesting choice. They also used the first edition of Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, so that's probably why.
- Cristo
I'm still waiting for Ray's answer. If Scheme is such a good language for thinking about programming, would you use a web site written with it?
- Bruce Lewis
I think these days Python would be a good learning language, combined with a text like Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs using Python.
- Cristo
Article claims: "Taken literally, it would never make sense to make a full-blown class for such a trivial piece of functionality. There simply would be more lines of code taken up making declarations than could possibly be saved by convenience." That seems likely to be untrue if you have a program which uses a lot of Squares. So: the article's case seems pretty feeble.
- Tim Tyler
I like the book SICP not because of Lisp/Scheme, but because of the way it incrementally attacks programming problems. Truthfully, it can be taught using any language, although some are more concise than others, and stuff like C pointers and manual memory allocation obscure some algorithms.
- Ray Cromwell
Ray, I was trying to trick you into agreeing to use http://ourdoings.com/ but you didn't fall for it. Curses, foiled again.
- Bruce Lewis
Really, it's hard to imagine a better programming language for beginners than Python. In particular, Python programs do what it looks like they should do, and you don't have to waste time hunting for missing brackets or semicolons.
- Gabe
Paul, users are actually a good example because your users tend to not vary a lot from one to another in many ways. They always have the same fields, etc. Generally speaking, of course. Also, the login method is an important way to separate user types because different methods require different approaches to keep the user "logged in" sometimes, and also might require differing inputs...
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- Otto
from iPhone
@Gabe BASIC, COBOL, and FORTRAN? :) I think human beings being very visual creatures, and visual feedback providing pleasing stimulus, some language deeply integrated with graphics is probably best for first language, ala turtle graphics or EToys.
- Ray Cromwell
Ray: Python is also good because it doesn't have arcane syntax (like COBOL and FORTRAN). I agree that BASIC is a great language for beginners, but it's just too old. If you modernized BASIC, I think you'd come up with something like Python.
- Gabe
MIT recently switched to Python for their into programming courses (I think from Scheme). I like "Think Python" as a nice introduction to programming. Best of all, the book is open source (written in LaTeX) http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpy...
- Robert Felty
You can make a good case multiple inheritance is bad, but subclassing is such an integral part of OO languages like Java and C++ that I can't see any way you should avoid or discourage its use. You can argue when you should teach it to new programmers, but any experienced programmer developing any non trivial architecture or API should be making extensive use of it in the right places. Its a primary mechanism for code reuse, maintainability and consist behavior. Reference Cocoa, Android, Qt...
- Ed Millard
No one has mentioned Smalltalk/Squeak as a teaching language. These languages are very nice for teaching because of the way the runtime image is integrated with the IDE as a kind of persistent database. People can write code to tickle objects, inspect anything, and see immediate results. EToys is a classic example of what you can do.
- Ray Cromwell
I think a good amount of problems (with subclassing) comes from the packages/modules system and importing classes from other packages/modules creating on the long run messy dependencies between modules (and violating module isolation); I find Gilad Bracha's Newspeak an interesting take on this problem, you can read...
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- Marco Fabbri
Otto's example has a baked-in assumption that each user only has one login method, whereas (as FriendFeed shows) having multiple login methods for a given user is an advantage. If you subclass for login method, you make it very hard to support logging in the same user in different ways...
- Kevin Marks
tornado's auth example uses subclassing :) but actually, it looks like it's designed so, using multiple inheritance in python, you can mixin multiple auth types? http://github.com/faceboo... another reason why this issue isn't so cut and dry :)
- Karl Rosaen
Kevin: Not at all. You can have the same user with multiple login methods. That's the beauty of it. You're storing the login methodology separate from the underlying user in that manner. I've done this before, it works fine for any number of login methods, on all users. The one you instantiate is just which way they used to login that particular time. If they login differently, you...
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- Otto
actually, no, looks like tornado auth is intended to mix *one* auth mechanism in, but as Otto mentions, you could do this for the appropriate instance
- Karl Rosaen
@robert felty, thanks for the link to the open source python book. I'm learning more about it now.
- Mark Essel
from iPhone
@lanjackal I'm a fellow engineer and number crunchers of almost 14 years. My coworkers are split between Matlab and C++ for default implementations. Three of us use both pretty regularly (although I lean towards c++). I prefer faster construction, flexibility, and execution of c++ and the libraries we've fashioned. Matlab has superior visualization tools but takes FOREVER to run anything intensive.
- Mark Essel
from iPhone
The difference in creating Rectangle and Square classes vs creating methods to create square and rectangle in a polygon class is that in latter you do an Object Oriented Analysis first, rather than pushing your own limited knowledge of system requirements (like you think of a requirement for rectangles and squares but don't think about entire system) into design
- thequark
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