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US Politics

US Politics

Discussion covering all angles of American politics.
Blog
Andrew C (✔)
Banks Cash In on Inversion Deals Intended to Elude Taxes - NYTimes.com - http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014...
"On a conference call with reporters, Mr. Dimon of JPMorgan Chase was asked about inversion deals. His reply? “You want the choice to be able to go to Walmart to get the lowest prices,” Mr. Dimon said. “Companies should be able to make that choice as well.”" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
IMO, when you go to Wal-Mart for the lowest prices, you knowingly make tradeoffs. Companies executing inversions want it both ways: they want to do business in the US and be headquartered here but not pay for it. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
Governor Christie Embraces Theft | The National Memo - http://www.nationalmemo.com/governo...
Governor Christie Embraces Theft | The National Memo
"Embattled New Jersey governor Chris Christie has come out foursquare for wage theft. As reported Sunday by Karen Tumulty of The Washington Post, Christie met with 200 citizens at the Jersey shore last week and, regarding state worker retirement benefits, declared: “Promises were made that can’t be kept… Welcome to the real world, folks.”" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"Tumulty and other first-rate political reporters are covering Christie’s not-fully-specified plans to cut post-retirement health care benefits and/or pensions as a political story: Reformist GOP governor championing taxpayer interests takes on greedy, Democratic-allied public worker unions. Nothing better illustrates why policy reporters, not politics reporters, should be covering... more... - Andrew C (✔)
"And to be clear, it’s not the taxpayers’ money, but the workers’. The state gets their labor as compensation for the work they do. No moral principle supports paying workers less than was agreed. Christie is winning plaudits from many people who fail to grasp the principle that all compensation is earned and failing to pay in full is theft. These plaudits would be far less likely if he ran a company instead of a government." - Andrew C (✔)
"Pensions are not gifts. Pensions are earned. Ditto post-retirement health care benefits that new hires were told they would earn. Declaring that any compensation that was earned will not be paid is to engage in deliberate and calculated theft." - Andrew C (✔)
WarLord
The right’s anti-healthcare jubilee! Why they can’t quit the Obamacare obsession http://www.salon.com/2014... via @Salon
"...The unseemly side to all this celebrating is the fact that these conservatives are, in effect, throwing a party over a judicial ruling that would strip millions of people of their health coverage. “The next time Republicans are wondering why so many people think their party is cruel and uncaring and will gladly crush the lives of ordinary people if it means gaining some momentary partisan advantage, they might think back to this case,” wrote Paul Waldman in the American Prospect. ..." - WarLord
Andrew C (✔)
[Chuck Schumer:] "Polarization and partisanship are a plague on American politics. Political scientists have found that the two parties have each grown more ideologically homogeneous since the 1970s." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"Um, good? What a horrible thing it is for members of a political party to roughly unite around a shared policy agenda and provide a reasonably good signal to voters about what they're actually voting for! People should just be randomly assigned into parties, maybe with a sorting hat! " - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
"My takeaway is that Cuomo's corruption investigations were just another form of corruption, something done with the intention of hanging it over the heads of other politicians. Find out where the bodies are buried, and make sure everybody knows you know." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
Andrew C (✔)
Blacklisted: The Secret Government Rulebook For Labeling You a Terrorist - The Intercept - https://firstlook.org/theinte...
"After stressing that hunches are not reasonable suspicion and that “there must be an objective factual basis” for labeling someone a terrorist, it goes on to state that no actual facts are required:" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"While the guidelines nominally prohibit nominations based on unreliable information, they explicitly regard “uncorroborated” Facebook or Twitter posts as sufficient grounds for putting an individual on one of the watchlists. “Single source information,” the guidelines state, “including but not limited to ‘walk-in,’ ‘write-in,’ or postings on social media sites, however, should not... more... - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
Hullabaloo: "Minority Report" for dummies - http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014...
[https://firstlook.org/theinte... - Scahill:] "“Instead of a watchlist limited to actual, known terrorists, the government has built a vast system based on the unproven and flawed premise that it can predict if a person will commit a terrorist act in the future,” says Hina Shamsi, the head of the ACLU’s National Security Project. “On that dangerous theory, the government is secretly blacklisting people as suspected terrorists and giving them the impossible task of proving themselves innocent of a threat they haven’t carried out.” Shamsi, who reviewed the document, added, “These criteria should never have been kept secret.”" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
[Scahill, cont:] "The document’s definition of “terrorist” activity includes actions that fall far short of bombing or hijacking. In addition to expected crimes, such as assassination or hostage-taking, the guidelines also define destruction of government property and damaging computers used by financial institutions as activities meriting placement on a list. They also define as terrorism any act that is “dangerous” to property and intended to influence government policy through intimidation." - Andrew C (✔)
WarLord
#SCOTUS #ObamaCare Last time around Roberts ripped away Medicaid to cripple the law he found constitutional, this time around with "subsidy" lawsuit he gets another bite at the law he hated to approve. What devils bargain will Robert's demand to keep the subsidy in place so people can keep their insurance?
Eric Logan
Brits Investigate Assassination of the Spy Who Warned Us About Putin - The Daily Beast - http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...
Brits Investigate Assassination of the Spy Who Warned Us About Putin - The Daily Beast
The British government admitted for the first time earlier this year that the murder investigation had been curbed for political reasons. “It is true that international relations have been a factor in the Government’s decision-making,” - Eric Logan from Bookmarklet
Andrew C (✔)
Halbig v. Burwell Ruling: Anti-Obamacare Lawsuit Could Backfire on GOP | New Republic - http://www.newrepublic.com/article...
"Conservatives would like to believe that they could just leave something as deeply rooted as Obamacare permanently hobbled, or that they could use the ensuing chaos as leverage, to force Democrats to reopen the books, and perhaps gut the law in other ways. I think they're miscalculating. Just as government shutdowns and debt default threats don't create leverage because the public doesn't support inviting chaos in pursuit of unrelated goals, I don't think an adverse ruling in Halbig will create leverage for the GOP." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"But it would needlessly create significant hardship for millions of people. If Congress didn't act, and red-state governors threw their middle- and low-income constituents under the bus, they'd saddle the country with a two-tiered health care system, in which residents of blue states have functioning insurance markets and near-universal coverage, and residents of red states are... more... - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
Win Rick Perlstein’s essential new book ‘The Invisible Bridge’ | Eclectablog - http://www.eclectablog.com/2014...
"Conservatives have spent the last two decades trying to find a new Reagan. They even cast one out of wax called it Mitt Romney." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
Andrew C (✔)
"Joe Biden, tanned and in very good voice -- which, as we know, is very good voice indeed -- was interrupted briefly during his address to the Netroots Nation confab by some immigration activists who chanted, "Stop deporting our families!" until they were escorted from the hall. As they left, some people applauded. "You should," said Biden. "You should applaud those young people. Imagine what it must be like to come home one day and find your family gone."" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
" "Imagine," he said, " a country where we don't lead with the example of our power but, instead, we lead by the power of our example." There aren't four politicians in America who can pull off that line and not sound like the precinct captain in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. But Biden is so transparently sincere in his bombast that people applauded him. The abiding characteristic of the... more... - Andrew C (✔)
WarLord
To understand Malaysia Airlines shot down perhaps some history Korean Flight 007 shot down near Sakhalin Island by Soviet fighter. No mistake about THAT identity either
Andrew C (✔)
Scalia’s major screw-up: How SCOTUS just gave liberals a huge gift - Salon.com - http://www.salon.com/2014...
"Let’s go back to 2012, when the Supreme Court ruled that the Affordable Care Act’s mandate for the purchase of insurance was constitutional as a tax, to fund the public good of healthcare. The issue necessarily now shifts to whether an individual or a privately held company has to pay a tax for anything religiously abhorrent that is less essential, or only as essential, to the common good as women’s ability to avoid unwanted pregnancies, including from rape." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"My husband, Tom, and I have been dancing gleefully with our Corgi Bessie in our modest home every evening since the Hobby Lobby ruling, because it’s clear that the conservative majority of justices has written itself into a corner in which it cannot refuse religious exemptions from selected tax obligations. The same preponderance of Supremes will have no way out of ruling, for example,... more... - Andrew C (✔)
I imagine the conservative justices will be able to adjust their principles regarding religious liberty to make sure the military-industrial complex still has financial support. - John (bird whisperer)
I'm sure they'll twist themselves into knots to preserve the status quo, but it won't do a whole lot for their legacy to be shown as relentlessly partisan hacks who made up the law to suit their politics. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
Judge tosses Florida congressional map - Tarini Parti - POLITICO.com - http://www.politico.com/story...
Judge tosses Florida congressional map - Tarini Parti - POLITICO.com
"A Florida judge ruled the state’s congressional map unconstitutional Thursday evening, a decision that could upend Republicans’ advantage in the state’s House delegation and leaves open the possibility of redrawing the districts in time for the 2014 elections. Circuit Court Judge Terry Lewis blasted the GOP-controlled state Legislature for working with political consultants to make a “mockery” of Florida’s Fair Districts amendments — passed by voters in 2010 — that call for the decennial redistricting process to be conducted without taking into account partisan makeup or incumbent advantage." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
Andrew C (✔)
Kansas was supposed to be the GOP’s tax-cut paradise. Now it can barely pay its bills. - Vox - http://www.vox.com/2014...
"In 2012, Kansas governor Sam Brownback signed a massive tax cut into law, arguing that it would boost the state's economy. Eventually, he hoped to eliminate individual income taxes entirely. "Our place, Kansas, will show the path, the difficult path, for America to go in these troubled times," he said." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"Yet though Brownback is running for reelection this fall in a deep red state, he's trailed his Democratic challenger in 3 of the 4 most recent polls — and his marquee tax cut appears to be the main reason. Kansas is now hundreds of millions of dollars short in revenue collection, its job growth has lagged the rest of the nation, and Moody's has cut the state's bond rating. "Governor... more... - Andrew C (✔)
"After the cuts became law, it was undisputed that Kansas's revenue collections would fall. But some supply-side analysts, like economist Arthur Laffer, argued that increased economic growth would deliver more revenue that would help cushion this impact. Yet it's now clear that the revenue shortfalls are much worse than expected. "State general fund revenue is down over $700 million... more... - Andrew C (✔)
"And the economic benefits Brownback promised haven't materialized either. Chris Ingraham wrote at Wonkblog that Kansas's job growth has lagged behind the rest of the country, "especially in the years following the first round of Brownback tax cuts."" - Andrew C (✔)
Really they just need deeper cuts and more time. Because growth is like magic. With a pen you can make it disappear. - Todd Hoff
Andrew C (✔)
The Strange Trials Of Bob Menendez - Esquire - http://www.esquire.com/blogs...
"Oh, such pure wonderfulness. Tucker Carlson—Communist dupe!" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
This has got to be too good to be true. That would just be too perfect. - John (bird whisperer)
Andrew C (✔)
Throwing The Pamphlet At Them - Esquire - http://www.esquire.com/blogs...
"Back in January, a facility maintained (in some loose sense of the word) by the hilariously named Freedom Industries leaked 10,000 gallons of poison into the water supply serving 300,000 West Virginians. This happened because Freedom Industries in an American corporation and therefore, prima facie, doesn't give a fck." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"The Labor Department's Occupational Safety and Health Administration fined Freedom Industries $7,000 for keeping storage tanks containing crude MCHM behind a diked wall that was not liquid tight. On Jan. 9, roughly 10,000 gallons of MCHM leaked from one of the tanks and through the riverside diked wall and left 300,000 residents without clean water for days. OSHA also fined Freedom Industries $4,000 for failing to have standard railings on an elevated platform." - Andrew C (✔)
Sean McBride
Author Heilbrunn: Hillary Will Win Neocon Vote - http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfro...
"The neoconservative movement is back from the political wilderness and may be ready to promote Hillary Rodham Clinton as an appropriate steward of American foreign policy, writes author Jacob Heilbrunn in a New York Times opinion op-ed. Heilbrunn, editor of the National Interest magazine and author of "They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons," pointed to recent praise by a new generation of neocons of Clinton's tenure as secretary of state. A former neoconservative and now a critic of the camp, Heilbrunn sees signs that some neocons are preparing to align with Clinton should she seek and capture the presidency in 2016." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
Sean McBride
Althouse: Behind that "Hillary Clinton Says She’s Donated All University Speaking Fees" headline. - http://althouse.blogspot.com/2014...
"Finally reading it, I'm irritated at Hillary and outraged at the new media outlets who put the headline in that form, which is missing the fact that flips the story: Hillary Clinton donates the money to her own foundation." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"What is her salary from the foundation? How much of her expenses are covered by family foundation money? How many members of her family make salaries from that foundation? To what extent is the foundation an income tax dodge? And didn't Hillary Clinton recently portray herself as not truly rich because she and Bill pay income tax on their money?" - Sean McBride
Andrew C (✔)
Scalia: Women Don't Have Constitutional Protection Against Discrimination - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011...
"The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not protect against discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation, according to Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia." - Andrew C (✔)
"Legal scholar Jack Balkin writes that while the 14th amendment doesn't end up explicitly mentioning sex, that doesn't mean it doesn't grant women equal protection: "[…] in fact, the fourteenth amendment was intended to prohibit some forms of sex discrimination-- discrimination in basic civil rights against single women. Moreover, the Constitution was subsequently amended. After the... more... - Andrew C (✔)
This goes in line with Roberts' writ that there's no more discrimination against POC, so the VRA should be gutted. It amazes me that people seem to be okay with these protections being stripped. - Anika
Andrew C (✔)
Constitutional horror: Clarence Thomas argues states can establish official religion - http://www.patheos.com/blogs...
"Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas argues states may establish an official state religion, and sees no problem with an individual state making Christianity the official state religion. Thomas believes the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause does not apply to the states. The Establishment Clause is that part of the First Amendment that says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"It is a position Thomas has staked out before. In 2011 Thomas made a similar argument. Rob Boston, writing for Americans United, summarized Thomas’ position: “Perhaps most shockingly, Thomas once again states his view that the First Amendment’s religious liberty provisions apply only to the federal government. In his view, the 50 states are free to “establish” any religion they want. In Thomas’ world, the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was apparently never ratified.” " - Andrew C (✔)
A further thought: didn't he and the other conservative justices rely on the incorporation doctrine in Bush v Gore? - Andrew C (✔)
Thomas and Scalia and their other three buddies in SCROTUS need to be impeached and removed. this is getting surreal and more than slightly dangerous. - Big Joe Silence
Well, it doesn't apply to states. It takes a heap of rationalization to make it do so. - Todd Hoff
A heap of rationalization... or the incorporation doctrine of the 14th Amendment! - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C (✔)
Two Guys With Guns Have Showdown On First Day Of Georgia's New 'Guns Everywhere' Law - http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...
"According to the Daily Times, the first man, Ronald Williams, approached the second man in the store and demanded to see his identification and firearms license. Williams also pulled his gun from his holster, without pointing it at the second man. The second man responded by saying that he was not obligated to show any permits or identification -- then he paid for his purchase, left the store, and called the police." - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"Police responded to the call around 3 p.m. Tuesday, and Williams was arrested on a charge of disorderly conduct for pulling his gun in the store. " - Andrew C (✔)
"Tuesday was also the day that Georgia's so-called "guns everywhere" law went into effect, allowing residents to carry guns into bars, nightclubs, classrooms, and certain government buildings. Among other things, the law also prohibits police from demanding to see the weapons permit of someone seen carrying a gun. Childress mentioned that last point when talking to the Daily Times about... more... - Andrew C (✔)
The fuck is up with all these people with hardons for their guns. - Starmama from FFHound(roid)!
i grew up with rifles and (to a FAR lesser degree) handguns everywhere, but they were treated like anything you'd find in a toolbox, not worshipped as Holy Penis Stand-Ins. now there's fewer gun owners, but they each seem to possess an fscking ARMOURY of semi-auto assault weapons. nuts doesn't even start to describe it. - Big Joe Silence
"Among other things, the law also prohibits police from demanding to see the weapons permit of someone seen carrying a gun" -- then ... what is the point of a weapons permit? - Andrew C (✔)
That's the next step, really: abolition of permitting/licensing. #FREEDOM! - Victor Ganata
Doesn't GA have a Papers Please law for non-whites? - Anika
Yep. It totally damaged their ag sector, too. Of course, they replaced their undocumented workers with prison labor…. - Victor Ganata
So, you don't have to prove you can own a gun, but you do have to prove your right to be. Gotta love Republican logic. - Anika
Eric Logan
Pentagon preparing for mass civil breakdown. - http://www.theguardian.com/environ...
Pentagon preparing for mass civil breakdown.
A US Department of Defense (DoD) research programme is funding universities to model the dynamics, risks and tipping points for large-scale civil unrest across the world, under the supervision of various US military agencies. The multi-million dollar programme is designed to develop immediate and long-term "warfighter-relevant insights" for senior officials and decision makers in "the defense policy community," and to inform policy implemented by "combatant commands." Launched in 2008 – the year of the global banking crisis – the DoD 'Minerva Research Initiative' partners with universities "to improve DoD's basic understanding of the social, cultural, behavioral, and political forces that shape regions of the world of strategic importance to the US." Among the projects awarded for the period 2014-2017 is a Cornell University-led study managed by the US Air Force Office of Scientific Research which aims to develop an empirical model "of the dynamics of social movement mobilisation and... more... - Eric Logan from Bookmarklet
The militarization of social science. How the Pentagon is Bracing for Societal Collapse | Interview with Nafeez Ahmed. https://www.youtube.com/watch... - Eric Logan
*Everything* can be weaponized -- without exception. - Sean McBride
Understanding ways to foment or discourage unrest using social media is just another form of herding investors and controlling market sentiment. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
True. - Sean McBride
WarLord
As luck would have it, I was getting a needed IV infusion when SCOTUS announced Hobby Lobby could refuse medical services under some form of religious conscience objection. Given that transfusion of drugs by IV is hardly "settled science" for some religious objectors Good Luck if your employers decides that an IV stick violates his conscience
Monday Stick.jpg
WarLord
In Hobby Lobby did SCOUS "pierce the corporate veil" by identifying the closely held corporation with its owners? What affect does this ruling have on liability by owners of closely held corporations? Was that why the distinction with publicly held corporations was so important?
Sean McBride
Bill Maher: Hillary Clinton a war hawk; 'John McCain in drag' - Washington Times - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...
"HBO’s “Real Time” host Bill Maher took a swipe at former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton over her past approval of the Iraq war and subsequent change of heart, calling her recent renouncement of the U.S. involvement in the conflict as hardly believable. Mrs. Clinton admitted in her just-released “Hard Choices” book that she made a “mistake” in supporting the sending of U.S. troops into Iraq. But Mr. Maher scoffed at that admission in his blog, saying her “hawkish instincts” are still intact." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Citing a New York Times article from April characterizing Mrs. Clinton’s positions while secretary of state as out of step with those of the Obama’s administration, along with her recent comparison of Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, Mr. Maher said: “She’s almost John McCain in drag.”" - Sean McBride
John McCain in a voluminous pantsuit. Ugh. - Sean McBride
Hillary Clinton has never led on any issue in her life -- she's a follower, not a leader, who has accomplished nothing of note. - Sean McBride
Hillary Clinton has no idea of the buzz saw of opposition she is going to encounter if she runs for president -- this is definitely not going to be the coronation she imagines. - Sean McBride
Bluesun 2600
SWAT teams claim to be private mercenaries, immune to open records laws - Boing Boing - http://boingboing.net/2014...
"The ACLU reports [PDF] that when it made Freedom of Information requests for Massachusetts SWAT team records, the SWATs claimed that because they were organized as "law enforcement councils" (jointly owned by many police departments, with additional federal funding) that they were not government agencies at all, but rather private corporations, and not subject to open records laws. SWATs are the white-hot center of the increasingly brutal and militarized response of US police forces, which have outfitted themselves with ex-Afghanistan/Iraq military materiel and have deployed it in an escalating violent series of attacks, largely as part of the war on drugs. As Radley Balko writes in the Washington Post, the SWATs' claim to be private companies doesn't pass the giggle test: they are funded by the government, pay government employees, and do the government's business. The argument boils down to this: we are not the police, we are private mercenaries armed with automatic weapons and... more... - Bluesun 2600 from Bookmarklet
Sean McBride
Leftist proponents of political correctness murdered more than 100 million innocent civilians in the 20th century, while enslaving hundreds of millions more and destroying entire national economies.
It's a fact. Look it up. Key topics: Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Holodomor, Walter Duranty, R.J. Rummel, Black Book of Communism, Red Terror, KGB, Great Leap Forward, etc. - Sean McBride
Many American "progressives" supported Stalinism long after its crimes were well-known to the world. - Sean McBride
Andrew C (✔)
GOP’s voter fraud humiliation: Turns out Wisconsin’s worst case is a Republican - Salon.com - http://www.salon.com/2014...
"Now we learn about the curious case of Robert Monroe, a 50 year old health executive who is accused of voting a dozen times in 2011 and 2012, including seven times in the recalls of Scott Walker and his GOP ally Alberta Darling. Wisconsin officials say it’s the worst case of multiple voting in memory. Oh, and, did I mention he’s a Republican?" - Andrew C (✔) from Bookmarklet
"Or maybe it’s projection, since the most notorious case of voter fraud turns out to be a Republican." - Andrew C (✔)
"Unbelievably – or not – Wisconsin conservatives are saying the Walker supporter’s crime is “the Democrats’ fault,” because Democrats opposed the voter ID law. I suppose it’s just a matter of time until we hear that from Reince Priebus, too." - Andrew C (✔)
So it's not actually a myth ? Only Republicans can do it ? - Eric Logan
The _scale_ of the problem is entirely Republican fantasy, Eric. Yes, there are some isolated cases of in-person voter fraud, but Republicans allege it's a massive, widespread problem. - Andrew C (✔)
1 case is not remotely like, say, the 20,000+ the Republicans allege is happening. - Andrew C (✔)
To really do it right you need need to own the voting machines. - Todd Hoff
I think this idiot demonstrated that it can be done. I am glad he got caught. I doubt his is the only case. It's been demonstrated repeatedly by investigators that it is easy to do and not often detected. - Eric Logan
Sure, there are probably a few more. But do you think there are _thousands_ more that weren't/aren't detected? - Andrew C (✔)
One guy managed to do it 12 times. What if it was organized? Can you get insurance which you are required to obtain by law without ID ? It's another one of those arguments where common sense goes out the window and anybody who says it's common sense is trying to disenfranchise voters. - Eric Logan
Because it's so hard to influence an election via voter fraud and the penalties are so high, it is extremely unlikely that voter fraud is the one crime that goes undetected so much. And it is disenfranchisement. Every study shows that voter ID requirements depress voting. The problem's _scale_ is miniscule. No reliable data shows this to be a real problem, but you would impose large costs on society to address it anyways, all on "what ifs" and "imagine ifs". - Andrew C (✔)
I find it amazing that your so-called skepticism about AGW -- whether or not it's even real and whether any action has to be taken -- is so utterly at odds with your credulity about voter fraud, but it is worth noting that both stances are perfectly in line with Republican stances and absolutely impervious to evidence to the contrary... but I repeat myself. - Andrew C (✔)
BTW, exit polls provide a decent check on (hypothetical large-scale) voter fraud. Just saying. - Andrew C (✔)
"Voter impersonation fraud is an impractical, inefficient, and downright stupid way to try to steal an election." - http://www.bloombergview.com/article... -- again, note that every single "voter fraud" opponent never tries to crack down on absentee ballots as hard, which would be much more practical for voter fraud. That should help... more... - Andrew C (✔)
Lots of fraud in absentee also. Voter fraud happens in the real world apparently, but not in studies. This is just one county and it's only verifiably dead people. So yes I actually do think it's thousands "270 people that records show voted in Nassau County after dying, a group that includes a man who voted 14 times since his death" .http://www.newsday.com/long-is... - Eric Logan
Same Newsday article: "The votes attributed to the dead are too few, and spread over 20 elections since 2000, to consider them a coordinated fraud attempt. More likely is what investigators in other states have found when examining dead voter records: Clerical errors are to blame, such as a person's vote being assigned to a dead person with a similar name." - Andrew C (✔)
And a very few clerical errors are not a good reason to disenfranchise a lot of people. - Andrew C (✔)
But I meant thousands _per election_, not hundreds _over the course of 20 elections over 14 years_. Even the Newsday article doesn't find evidence of coordinated voter impersonation fraud, and this is presumably one of the best pieces of evidence you could find! - Andrew C (✔)
No it's what I found as the result of a quick google search. I think we have had this conversation before. My grandfather a Democrat lost a municipal mayoral reelection in 1978 by one vote after absentee votes where counted he won the machine count by 87 votes this is not a new problem. Absentee ballots where cast by dead people by the time the case was litigated the term had already... more... - Eric Logan from FFHound!
But voter ID does _nothing_ to fix voter absentee ballot fraud, which is an _actual_ problem on a sizable scale, one far larger than voter impersonation fraud. Either Republicans are idiots who are focused on fixing a negligible problem while ignoring a real one, or ... they care more about the disenfranchisement side effect than actually protecting election integrity. - Andrew C (✔)
If we've had this conversation before -- and I think I remember your story about your grandfather's election -- then why have you still not got anything better than news stories that actually disprove your own claim??? - Andrew C (✔)
You just posted a case where one guy voted 12 times and it was detected three years later. I am sure it's never happened before and this is the only case. True the vote seems like a good idea to me. Mr. Monroe needs to be disenfranchised forever. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Since you're concerned about CAGW which is a separate issue. I hope you didn't miss this? http://www.giss.nasa.gov/researc... - Eric Logan from FFHound!
So you simply cannot comprehend that a handful of cases is not enough to swing most elections. OK. If there were thousands of cases, it would be detected. Absentee voter fraud is even easier to pull off than voter impersonation fraud and yet there are _far_ more prosecutions for absentee voter fraud; how do you explain that? - Andrew C (✔)
I have experience with a case from 1978 in which voting irregularities did in fact change the outcome of an election. If I did not personally know the name involved in the case Howanitz vs Blair I would not be able to find it either. In the litigation of that case are cites of other contested elections. Barber vs. Moody cited there is a case in which six voters cast absentee ballots and... more... - Eric Logan from FFHound!
"six voters cast absentee ballots and also voted" -- which voter ID would not solve. - Andrew C (✔)
I can't draw that inference as the case doesn't indicate if they voted in their own name both ways. What it does indicate is that elections are decided by small margins that are susceptible to even small amounts of voter fraud a lot more often then can be uncovered with a simple Google search - Eric Logan from FFHound!
And can you give us any quantifiable claims about that? Let's assume, say, 20-30 voter impersonation frauds per election per 460K people (rough number of ballots cast in the 2012 general election in Nassau County). So your claim is that a surprisingly large number of elections are within 0.006% ???? (edit: let's say the problem is 10x larger than the Newsday article suggested. So now we just need elections within 0.06%.) - Andrew C (✔)
No that's not my claim it's just a way you attempted to frame the argument. I also really don't care what the Republican position is. My position is that elections with low voter turnout and small margins of victory can be decided by voter fraud. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
I also think dead people should not be allowed to vote period not even once. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
" it's just a way you attempted to frame the argument" -- yeah, I used FACTS (Nassau county stats for ballots cast vs Nassau county voter impersonation fraud cases prosecuted, with a 10X factor for the latter to account for all those cases you insist happen but aren't caught). The facts are, voter impersonation fraud accounts for a vanishingly small amount of votes cast, so elections would have to be VERY close for it to matter, and they're very very rarely that close. - Andrew C (✔)
Since you want to focus on a link that I found as the result of a simple Google search that verifies that 270 dead people actually voted in Nassau county. Nassau County Court Judge municipal primary for Nov 2013 was decided by 40 votes. Patricia A. Harrington 140,509 28% David P. Sullivan 140,469 28% - Eric Logan from FFHound!
270 over 20 elections' worth, for an average of 13.5 per election. I guess 135 per election by the 10x "they must be there" factor I gave you, so good find. - Andrew C (✔)
You also included another key delimiter PROSECUTED. They are not even detected much less PROSECUTED. "The election board’s susceptibility to voter fraud by people impersonating the departed was uncovered during a massive probe of the agency by the Department of Investigation. The probe uncovered 63 instances when voters’ names should have been stricken from the rolls, but weren’t — even... more... - Eric Logan
"In some cases, young investigators were able to vote under the name of a dead person three times their age. For example, a 24-year female was able to access the ballot at a Manhattan poll site in November under the name of a deceased female who was born in 1923 and died in April 25, 2012 — and would have been 89 on Election Day. Also at a Manhattan poll site, a 33-year-male... more... - Eric Logan
"They are not even detected much less PROSECUTED." -- But again, it's simply not practical. The number of voters who should be stricken from the rolls is scant compared to total number of voters. Even in the county court judge election you cited, _every other election_ that round was not as close. To swing elections via voter impersonation fraud requires so much work for so little possible gain. - Andrew C (✔)
The _actual_ votes cast under the names of people who should have been stricken from the rolls is recorded and it's very low (see your own Newsday link earlier). - Andrew C (✔)
Same election November last year. Margin of victory 19 votes. Nassau County. Long Beach City Council 24 of 24 Precincts Reporting Scott J. Mandel 4,470 21% Eileen J. Goggin 4,451 20% - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Yeah, but since that's Long Beach City Council and only covered 24 precincts, you'll need a much higher rate of voter impersonation fraud than for the county as a whole... the latter election was just 21K total votes, not 500K, so the margin of victory /as a percentage/ was larger. - Andrew C (✔)
Listen, I'm happy to debate the facts with you, but learn2math plz. - Andrew C (✔)
These are just from simple Google search's in the New York area. "An NYPD officer standing outside IS 71 told us he had witnessed four men attempting to vote under the wrong name in the two hours he had been posted there." http://gothamist.com/2013... - Eric Logan
So... stuff you find on google is authoritative. Academic studies that show very little voter impersonation fraud occurs, you dismiss out of hand. OK. - Andrew C (✔)
No you have that backwards too. You use studies that tell you it's not happening to dismiss evidence that it is. I know it happens I have witnessed it first hand. "IS 71 is the same polling place where we found potentially illegal raffles that displayed campaign literature promoting preferred candidates, and promised voters a chance at a $250 cash prize or a gift certificate, so long as... more... - Eric Logan
Here is a picture maybe that will help? Ultra-Orthodox Williamsburg Jews Promise A Chance At Cash For Votes. http://gothamist.com/2013... - Eric Logan
So... evidence that it happens A FEW TIMES is simultaneously evidence that it happens a lot and evidence that it happens a lot but cannot be detected? - Andrew C (✔)
It helps to know who voted if you intend to place votes for others that are on the voting rolls, but have not actually voted. - Eric Logan
The US is absolutely awash with stories just like that one! - Andrew C (✔)
Maybe we should make everyone dip their fingers in indelible ink? The OP indicates that one voter voted 12 times in Wisconsin there is no way to know if he is the only one. We didn't know about him for three years. Nothing to see here move along. - Eric Logan
But were there similar raffles in Wisconsin? Given that he's now been caught and prosecuted, has he given up the organization that was coordinating a large-scale operation? (Or, more likely, there wasn't one and you are still ignoring real problems while fantasizing about fake ones.) - Andrew C (✔)
The raffle was specific to the case in Williamsburg as reported in the Gothamist.. - Eric Logan
Yes, but any large scale operation would need some method of tracking who voted. - Andrew C (✔)
All you would need is a voter a role and knowledge about the current status of the local populace for municipal elections. That Long Beach race was very low turnout there are over 30,000 registered voters there according to the 2010 census. - Eric Logan
21K votes were cast out of those 30K (which BTW seems like decent turnout to me), so your odds of finding registered voters who didn't vote just at random is not good. - Andrew C (✔)
Knowledge of the local populace is not random. The raffle is just a more ingenous way of figuring that out. - Eric Logan
Very few people know enough of their local population to guess who in their precinct didn't vote and aren't going to. Maybe a few friends, not enough to swing most elections. It's telling that even a close-knit community like Brooklyn's ultra-Orthodox thought they needed the raffle method. - Andrew C (✔)
I just reviewed all of the cites in my Grandfathers case and they are all absentee ballot cases because they are looking for precedents set under similar circumstances. There where quite a few elections that where won on machine count then lost after absentee's especially when you review the cites in those other cases as well. I was born in a place that was famous for corruption, voting... more... - Eric Logan
" they are all absentee ballot cases "... OK, again, how is mandatory voter ID supposed to fix that? Esp when the voter fraud yahoos are constantly and ONLY talking about voter impersonation fraud? - Andrew C (✔)
It wouldn't it's just the case I am most familiar with. I think the problem is obviously a lot bigger then just Voter ID. I learned today as a result of this conversation that 4.4 million people can't vote because they are incarcerated or convicted felons. Another 1.8 million are still listed nationally on voting rolls despite the fact that they are dead according to a Pew study. - Eric Logan
And how many people nationally would be disenfranchised by voter ID requirements? About 21 million. http://www.propublica.org/article... So... I'm saying, 21M is a bigger number than (4.4 + 1.8) million. - Andrew C (✔)
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