Steven Perez
Ron Paul tells Piers Morgan only ‘honest rape’ merits abortion | The Raw Story -
Ron Paul tells Piers Morgan only ‘honest rape’ merits abortion | The Raw Story
"In an interview with CNN’s Piers Morgan, Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul was asked whether or not victims of rape should have access to abortion services. He said that while he believes that life begins at the moment of conception, the issue is too complex for him to give an answer that will “satisfy everyone.” In an interview from Las Vegas on Piers Morgan Tonight, Morgan asked whether as a man with daughters and granddaughters, Rep. Paul (R-TX) thinks that abortion is warranted if a woman has been impregnated by a rapist." - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet
"“If it’s an honest rape,” Paul replied, “that individual should go immediately to the emergency room, I would give them a shot of estrogen.” He claimed, however, that if a woman is “seven months pregnant” and says that she was raped, “It’s a little bit of a different story.”" - Steven Perez
"The candidate was not forthcoming as to precisely how the “story” is different or what constitutes an “honest rape” versus a dishonest one." - Steven Perez
#GOPClowncar "Honest Rape" from the campaign that brought you "Hate Whitey Day" and a friend of Stormfront, the creepy old gold.guy. But hey he's for legal weed. #WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot - WarLord
I haven't paid the slightest attention to this really big issue (the threat of an imminent war with Iran is more on my mind), but my first interpretation of these words would be that Ron Paul meant a real rape, an actual rape, an honest claim of rape, as opposed to a false claim of rape -- and we do know that false claims of rape do occur. How do you interpret this phrase? It was spoken off the cuff in an interview, and the word choice is poor -- but I think I catch his drift. What has he written on the subject? - Sean McBride
Sean war with Iran is off the table. You're not keeping up. Too busy reading Greenwald I guess. But your guy, Friend of stormfront really is a miserable human being. That's Libertarian selfish i guess or maybe its small town Texas. - WarLord
WarLord: I get my Mideast news from dozens of the very best sources, including here: You don't know what you are talking about. The Obama administration now believes that there is a high probability that the Israeli government is going to drag the American government into a war against Iran. Catch up with what is going on in the real world. - Sean McBride
WarLord: do you agree with my interpretation of Paul's awkward phrase? A truthfully reported rape? As opposed to an untruthfully reported rape? Do you really think this is a big deal compared to an Iran War and many other big and pressing issues facing the American people? - Sean McBride
The quality of intellectual discussion from the left is so elevated and thoughtful these days. Really persuasive. - Sean McBride
I'm going to let Digby answer you, Sean: "I called this the The Sodomized Virgin Exception, which kindly men like Bill Napoli and Ron Paul will generously allow on occasion. But the fresh faced young virgin had better wander into the emergency room with blood trickling down her legs and bruises all over her body or she's going to be suspect. Lotsa lying bitches out there trying to get away with having sex and then getting themselves pregnant. You've got to draw the line somewhere." - Steven Perez
Digby doesn't address the main issue: what did Ron Paul mean by that awkward phrase? With regard to the abortion issue in general: many of the most passionate anti-abortion activists are women. And they are sincere in their beliefs. - Sean McBride
Sean is like the amateur magician at a kids birthday party: "look over here" "No, don't look there, look over here" - WarLord
huh? whut? wtf? - .LAG liked that
WarLord -- I am somone who gets bored really quickly by dogmatic Republicans and Democrats. Most of them are incapable of independent and original thinking -- it's all the same prepackaged party line and simplistic propaganda on every issue. - Sean McBride
Que Sarah Sarah -- I strongly support a woman's right to choose in these matters. I disagree with Ron Paul's position on this issue and quite a few other issues. I think Ron Paul has zero chance of affecting US policy on the right to choose. I think Barack Obama has an excellent chance of getting the US involved in a war with Iran that would be much worse than the Iraq War and which would collapse the US economy and cause misery for most Americans. That's where I'm coming from. :) - Sean McBride
...let's not PNAC, sorry—PANIC—about a war with Iran. all of these things have been foretold... - .LAG liked that
...and Syria - .LAG liked that
You know, Sean, people would probably be a bit more sympathetic to your "progressive" hero if he wasn't still hanging around with the rest of the Republican Clown Car that thinks that we should be subdivided by what sex we are, who we worship and what shade our skin is. Also, the crazy things he says don't help much, either. - Steven Perez
Gotta like a "libertarian" who is in favor of a nanny state dictating to women what their reproductive rights should be. In terms of the future of American society I would argue that a candidate's views on individual rights and the propagation of a misogynistic, racist culture should weigh more heavily on ones decision making. - Bren from iPhone
Steven -- I've been the one here who has been trying to get beyond identity politics of all kinds -- haven't you been paying attention? I am interested in how people from all cultural groups can get along creatively and productively on the basis of univeral talent. I don't care about ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I oppose those who are tying to drag us into the morass of those culture wars. - Sean McBride
Ron Paul is a joke. - Victor Ganata
As for the "honest rape" comment, I see that as more of a Freudian slip in the sense that Paul is inadvertently letting us in on his core beliefs vis-a-vis women: that they are not trustworthy, nor are they capable of making rational choices without the guidance of a system that is pre-programmed to negate their essential human-ness. The subtext of misogyny in his comment is clear, that coupled with the legitimate questions about his race-baiting record should end the farce of his campaign. - Bren from iPhone
Oh, I have been, Sean. And for every time Paul says something seems to prove his progressive bonifides, I can usually find something else that's been said, either directly by him or under his aegis, that says otherwise. As for waging "culture wars", well, as I've said, he *is* hanging around with Republicans, isn't he? - Steven Perez
Steven -- Democrats are as guilty of waging culture wars as Republicans. That is why I am not much impressed by either political party. Ron Paul has some major problems, indeed -- I've discussed those problems myself. - Sean McBride
Bren -- I didn't get that reading from the phrase at all. But if you can support that intrepretation with passages from his writings. maybe you can change my mind. - Sean McBride
Ah, yes. The Dems and their "culture wars" - insisting on such things as making sure labor practices are fairly applied, making sure that the rights of ethnic minorities aren't sacrificed on the altar of free enterprise, and making sure that women have to right to choose for themselves their own health care. Those dirty, dirty Dems. - Steven Perez
Granted, such things have slackened since the Dems decided to emulate the example of the GOP and chase corporate money, but still, on the balance, if this be the only choice, I'd rather have the rule of the Party of Benign Neglect over the crushing fist of the Party of the Angry Father Figures. At least, there's a small chance that benign neglect might actually listen when people are marching in the street. - Steven Perez
Here's the problem with that, Sean: the written word can be edited and shaped after the fact; "off the cuff" remarks, as you call them, speak to a person's true thoughts. I don't need to support my opinion of his words with more of his words. What he said points, in my opinion, to an underlying thought process that is paternalistic and anti-woman. A more appropriate libertarian response would have been "I support an individual's right to determine the future of that individual's body without exception. I do not believe government should have any say in the matter." Of course, that's not remotely what he said. - Bren from iPhone
I've deliberately not read this thread in its entirety, and only glanced at the article...the title alone, and Ron Paul's "honest rape" phrase is all by itself enough to set my teeth on edge for a full day. There is much misogynistic bullshit in those two words alone that belie our Western culture's rape apologia and victim blaming stance to make any suggestion as an "only" for warranting abortion enough to make me want to reach out and touch him. Hard. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Bren -- don't many libertarians take the position that the fetus enjoys human rights? This is a really messy area involving profound philosphical and religious disagreements, and it cuts across the gender divide -- many anti-abortion militants are women. I side with the pro-choice camp and then for the most part try to stay out of the debate. - Sean McBride
Sean: Last I checked, I live in a secular nation. I know it's a pipe-dream, but I would like to imagine that, as the rights of adults and minors differ, so should the rights of a woman to decide her own reproductive future differ from the rights of an unborn being, regardless of that being's (disputed) status as a "person." I don't believe that religion should play a role whatsoever. - Bren from iPhone
Bren -- I am not going to get into this -- I know how this argument goes. There is no clean resolution to it. And I am more worried about other issues. - Sean McBride
Fair enough, but this thread concerns this topic; as for "staying out of the argument," by supporting and defending Paul, you have clearly chosen a side in this argument. - Bren from iPhone
Bren -- I have repeatedly stated that I strongly disagree with Ron Paul on numerous issues, including the abortion issue. My main issues are foreign policy and civil liberties. - Sean McBride
So then, the only reason you're in this thread is to defend Ron Paul? Even though you disagree with him regarding the topic specifically addressed in this thread? - Prosey BUTTONS!
That's fine, Sean, but you don't get to choose just the aspects of Paul you like and ignore the rest. As for a concern for civil liberties, I think it's clear that, in his heart, Dr. Paul is in favor of a nanny state to some degree. I don't know to what degree, but does it matter? - Bren from iPhone
Well, Ron Paul opposes granting the president the right to assassinate American citizens at will without due process or public notice -- which puts him head and shoulders above Barack Obama on a truly important civil liberties issue. - Sean McBride
Prosey -- nope -- as a student of language I was curious to figure out what that awkward phrase meant. I think my interpretation makes good sense. - Sean McBride
The straw-men abound in this thread. - Bren from iPhone
He meant it, Sean, exactly as most men interpret it. "Real" rape versus "false" rape. A common trope in our language...the fact that it's completely false doesn't make it any less common. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Prosey -- if a male family member or loved one of yours was accused of rape -- say a brother, boyfriend, husband or son -- would you be gravely concerned to ascertain whether the rape report was true ("honest") or false ("dishonest")? Would you consider the possibility that the report might be false? I think it's pretty clear on what conceptual and language grid this awkward phrase was situated. - Sean McBride
Que Sarah Sarah -- I am trying to understand where anti-abortion activists are coming from on this issue. Why would it matter to them whether the rape report was true or false? I still don't know. But I did just use Google to uncover the fact that 60% of adult Americans want to restrict abortion or ban it altogether -- so this is a huge controversy in contemporary American politics -- much bigger than I thought a few hours ago. - Sean McBride
Love how he wants government out of our lives. - Todd Hoff
^ Yep,'s all moot anyway. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Actually, it's not necessarily moot. Ron Paul is trying to lay the groundwork for a major new movement in American politics. He could possibly succeed in doing that without winning the election or nomination. It all depends on what unfolds in the coming months. He has acquired much more traction than most people (and certainly I) expected. Many people are really sick to death of both the establishment Republican and Democratic Parties. Barack Obama has greatly contributed to that disaffection, especially among young people who will lead the next generation of politics. - Sean McBride
It seems obvious to me that he won't even win the nomination -- Mitt Romney has it sewed up. The question is, what will Ron Paul's supporters and sympathizers do next -- this is more about them than him. The issues he has put in play are huge and will long outlive him. - Sean McBride
What is different is this: 1. America is being bankrupted by foreign wars 2. The US budget deficit has reached truly staggering levels. 3. Neoconservatives are systematically dismantling the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and constructing a Soviet-style police state. These factors will probably keep the movement that Ron Paul currently leads energized, in motion and expanding for quite some time. - Sean McBride