"The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan said the planned burning of Qurans on Sept. 11 by a small Florida church could put the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort. Gen. David Petraeus said the Taliban would exploit the demonstration for propaganda purposes, drumming up anger toward the U.S. and making it harder for allied troops to carry out their mission of protecting Afghan civilians. "It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen. Petraeus said in an interview. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems. Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community."" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

doesn't surprise me. this guy is a dhimmi. he has a history. On January 16, two days after a killer earthquake hit Haiti, a team of senior military officers from the U.S. Central Command (responsible for overseeing American security interests in the Middle East), arrived at the Pentagon to brief JCS Chairman Michael Mullen on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The team had been dispatched by CENTCOM commander David Petraeus to underline his growing worries at the lack of progress in resolving the issue. The 33-slide 45-minute PowerPoint briefing stunned Mullen. The briefers reported that there was a growing perception among Arab leaders that the U.S. was incapable of standing up to Israel, that CENTCOM's mostly Arab constituency was losing faith in American promises, that Israeli intransigence on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was jeopardizing U.S. standing in the region, and that Mitchell himself was (as a senior Pentagon officer later bluntly described it) "too old, too slow...and too late." The January Mullen briefing was unprecedented. No previous CENTCOM commander had ever expressed himself on what is essentially a political issue; which is why the briefers were careful to tell Mullen that their conclusions followed from a December 2009 tour of the region where, on Petraeus's instructions, they spoke to senior Arab leaders. "Everywhere they went, the message was pretty humbling," a Pentagon officer familiar with the briefing says. "America was not only viewed as weak, but its military posture in the region was eroding." But Petraeus wasn't finished: two days after the Mullen briefing, Petraeus sent a paper to the White House requesting that the West Bank and Gaza (which, with Israel, is a part of the European Command - or EUCOM), be made a part of his area of operations. Petraeus's reason was straightforward: with U.S. troops deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. military had to be perceived by Arab leaders as engaged in the region's most troublesome... more... - NoahDavidSimon

...and apparently Bush was lied to by his own Secret Service... and he pushed those lies on Israel. ever wonder who was involved with that? - NoahDavidSimon

Dick Morris was the first conservative that I know of to "come out" and, in effect, join me in noting Petraeus' hostility to Israel. He wrote: "Gen. Petraeus told the Senate Armed Services Committee that `Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples [in the region] ... Enduring hostilites between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the area of responsibility.' In other words, blame Israel." It's that simple. - NoahDavidSimon

Praise for Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein (a terrorist mass murderer) and Yigal Amir (the assassin of an Israeli prime minister), now combined with charges that a leading American military figure (David Petraeus) is a "dhimmi" -- you're presenting an interesting profile to the world on behalf of Israel, Noah. How much do you actually care about the well-being of American troops in Afghanistan? And do you ever think about the consequences of your words? - Sean McBride

so who was it in the military that told G W Bush that Iran was no where close to developing a bomb? hmmmmmm? isn't it obvious? - NoahDavidSimon

If Israelis and pro-Israel activists fail to recognize that the United States has important interests in the Middle East that have absolutely nothing to do with Israel, and every good reason to protect and pursue those interests, Zionism really will turn out to be a failed experiment and enterprise. - Sean McBride

bah wah ha ha... you think I think America doesn't have interests in the middle east? that is the poorest strawman argument setup yet - NoahDavidSimon

The clear implication of your comments, Noah, is that you support burning Qurans (a Nazi-style approach to politics), and that you don't care about American interests or American troops. - Sean McBride

yes Sean... I don't like people telling me they are going to kill me. if that makes me a Nazi... so be it - NoahDavidSimon

Most of us don't like being threatened, but most of us do not respond to threats by trying to burn down and exterminate entire major religions or ethnic groups, which is the Nazi approach to politics. - Sean McBride

I never said a thing about ethnic groups. that is the Nazi approach Sean, not pointing out that those are trying to kill you. there were plenty of Jews during the Holocaust who said that Nazis were trying to kill them - NoahDavidSimon

Many of the attacks on Islam coming from neoconservative and Christian Zionist circles are directed as much at Arabs as at Muslims. Thomas Friedman gave the game away in the New York Times when he celebrated punching "the Arab/Muslim world" in the gut. This is an ethno-religious conflict, not just a religious conflict. - Sean McBride

even if that were a pattern that was so it is wrong to create a strawman argument and claim that I hate Arabs. Islam is a Religion. you are doing this too often. - NoahDavidSimon

I don't think I've misrepresented you: you've praised two infamous Jewish terrorists -- Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir -- and endorsed a hate campaign against Islam as a whole. You should think about renouncing these positions. - Sean McBride

These hillbilly morons (Christian fundamentalists/Zionists, predominantly from the South, some of them in the Southern Confederate religious and political tradition) know exactly what they are doing: they are deliberately trying to instigate the biggest shit storm in world history -- biblical Armageddon. And they have made significant inroads in the Defense Department, Pentagon and military-industrial complex. They substantially control the contemporary Republican Party and the Tea Party movement. - Sean McBride

*nod* That, Sean, was an aspect of Kevin Phillips' book that you recommended that I found particularly interesting - the Southern Migration post-Civil War era - and the resulting Dixification of the West. These are people who have a "New Zion" (personalized and entitlement-filled) approach to modern history...and they are not remotely self-aware enough to recognize that their actions are entirely, utterly, ruthlessly fascist. - Prosey BUTTONS!

prosepetals: "Zionism" (in the larger abstract sense): ethnic tribalism, ethnic nationalism, ethnic exceptionalism, ethnic supremacism, ethnic aggression, ethnic fascism, ethnic racism, etc., often justified on the basis of fundamentalist religious doctrine (especially biblical myths and memes). This has now become the most influential and fateful factor in contemporary American politics, but most Americans have been much too slow to recognize and respond to the threat. Those who see it happening can't believe it's happening. - Sean McBride

your tactics within this argument Sean are not ethical. you create a fictional opinion of your opponnent. that is what I mean when I keep on saying strawman. I have always attacked Islam and not Arabs. I have never attacked on your profile the Bahai or Drusi or other institutional offshoots of Mohamadeans. Also considering that the Florida church is a church... where are the cries against religious intolerance now that we are talking about Christians and not Muslims? This is what they believe. Do you think the government has a right to take their religious expression away? you aren't even consistent. you reinforce your world view only, but your arguments against the Mosque at the WTC have just been left with a whole new hole... even if I were to disregard the idea that the constitution protects only religious ideas, not religious assemblies and practices. but before I do the same as you have done to me... let me ask. do you think the law has a right to stop this church? - NoahDavidSimon

Noah -- my positions are consistent: I strongly support freedom of religion and freedom of speech, and strongly oppose hate speech. But I do not support censoring hate speech -- hate speech should be answered by smart speech. Hate speech is usually stupid speech, and is easy to rebut in free, fair and open debate. David Petraeus is trying to persuade the Quran burners that their actions are dangerous for American troops -- he is not trying to use the power of the government to control, prohibit or punish their behavior. - Sean McBride

the article articulates that a permit was denied to Dove World Outreach Center. do you support that? answer the question ...do you think the law has a right to stop this church? - NoahDavidSimon

I don't know the reasoning behind the fire department authority who denied the permit. I don't think the permit should be denied on political or ideological grounds. But I do think that Terry Jones should be strongly advised about the error of his ways. Book burning of any kind makes my skin crawl. The Nazis were fond of burning books. - Sean McBride

it is good you have found some consistency here when I pointed it out. and in the future make note that my attacks are an attack on institutional Islam like Al Azahar university and the Muslim Brotherhood. not Mohammedans who have evolved something different. I may not agree with their views and wish not to associate with Mohammadians... even the Bahai... but I still consider these offshoots to be a legitimate protected religion - NoahDavidSimon

*agreeing again* - to both your response to me, and your response to Noah (though I can't see what he has said in this thread) - I grew up in the Assemblies of God, and have long recognized the described patterns, but lacked the historic understanding to articulate what I was (and am) seeing in any kind of intelligent or informed way. The fear is gnawing and ever-present for what the radically religious right is capable of doing -just in *this* country- not to mention what it's doing in other countries through (plainly denied by many) imperialistic endeavors. And I won't even get into what I think of the combination of book burning alongside the ritualistic traditions that have formed over the past century (such as the pledge etc) that people here have taken completely for granted. - Prosey BUTTONS!

please restrain prosepetals sez meh from repeating herself. we already know she blocks without elaborating any reason - NoahDavidSimon

prosepetals -- just to reiterate, regarding the overall discussion: my comments haven't been directed at Southerners in general. There is much to admire among many Southerners and Southern values, and many of them have made important contributions to American culture and continue to do so. And the North is afflicted with its own varieties of unpleasant extremism. But this particular strain of Southern religious fundamentalism we have been discussing, and which often edges into ethno-religious fascism, is very much on the front burner these days. Even I can't believe what I am seeing -- isn't this stuff ancient history? Apparently not. - Sean McBride

The fundamentalists seem to be correct, they are (trying to) take back the country to at least a century ago. Here's another one with morals in the late 1800s: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010... - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

And the Dove Outreach Church still plans to go ahead with the Quran burning: http://www.cnn.com/2010... - Isn't endangering US troops an act of treason? - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Absolutely, Sean - I don't mean to sound as though I am unappreciative of the positive aspects of the South, because I most certainly am. There is a richness of history here that is beautiful, and should rightly be celebrated and appreciated. However, with light there is darkness...and the shadows that the light creates is very dark indeed. It is the underbelly of the human condition - a condition that each and every one of us is capable if we allow ourselves to dwell in it - it's a vile form of hatred and self-pity that I (personally) will not indulge, and forces a hard and critical examination of the direction this country has been going for decades (and centuries, really) - that, to repeat and underscore the many times you've said it, the Founding Fathers would view with shame and contempt. - Prosey BUTTONS!

@Rene, I don't know if it could be considered treason by any *legal* definition. Terry Jones and his flock of idiots are being irresponsible, most certainly...and especially since the response has been explained to them, they clearly understand it, and are "firm" in their decision to go ahead with the quran-burning "protest" - which makes any point they're supposedly trying to make moot. But treason? No, I don't think so. Then again, I'm not a lawyer...so I can't answer with certainty on that point. - Prosey BUTTONS!

And also, just imagine the outrage if a muslim cleric decided to stage a protest where they will burn bibles and/or torahs?! This hysterical behavior shows once more the rampant exceptionalism. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Yes, which goes back to the lack of self-awareness that I noted previously. They ignore the very premise of the Golden Rule while trying to pass themselves off as "loving Christians" - proving themselves to be the antithesis of what the Christ taught, as well as what Mohammed taught. *heavy sigh* - Prosey BUTTONS!

Oh who cares what other countries do to the Bible? If people really care about "supporting our troops" like they're always droning on about, they'll let go of this foolishness with burning Qurans. We get it. You're pissed at Islam. Just leave the rest of us out of it, we're hoping shit will calm down! - Ciaoenrico

Eric: David Petraeus was crystal clear about what motivated his remarks on this issue: the activities of anti-Muslim extremists in American politics are severely underming the American interest abroad and endangering the lives of American troops. His is motivated by his American patriotism and his devotion to core American values. The same motives impelled Michael Bloomberg to speak out eloquently in defense of Park51. - Sean McBride

So what do we do with New Testament burnings in Israel? Israel is the US's ally, the US supports Israel politically, economically and financially! I agree with Enrico, what happens in other countries is irrelevant, unless the US wants to demonstrate how petty they are by fighting fire with fire (pun intended) instead of taking the high road of the supposed high standard of morality in/of the US through xtian standards. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Ciaoenrico...yessiree. *nod* - Prosey BUTTONS!

Eric: David Petraeus, Barack Obama and Michael Bloomberg are acting very much within the standards and spirit of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights in speaking out against hate speech -- especially hate speech that is putting Americans in harm's way and damaging the American interest. They are not denying the right of anti-Muslim extremists to behave like ignorant monsters in venting their hate through legal speech and legal symbolic actions. - Sean McBride

@CW and Eric: Sean and me were discussing this earlier - https://friendfeed.com/seanmcb... - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Sean and I... - Alex Scrivener

it is not in the spirit of the constitution for a military high ranking official to speak out against a group of believers when he is obviously enabling another very violent ideology. he is only highlighting why we can't trust him. it also becomes very obvious that the reason these wars have become less violent in short term is because we have surrendered to Islam. The Jizya has become soldiers blood. will we learn anything from the history of Khaibar? http://noah.simonstudio.com/2010... We don't even address why Hamas has called their missiles Khaibar. - NoahDavidSimon

LOL Alex...XD - Prosey BUTTONS!

it is their church. they decided to burn the Quran. Even if our government continues to call a hateful violent ideology like Islam a religion then this actually is not permitted because like I was saying before... there is a difference between religious belief and religious practice or assemblage. but treat the goose like the gander. if you have to protect hate because it is a religion then you have to protect hate because it is a religion. the best solution is to realize that hate is not a religion... btw. Islam as practiced and dictated by Wahabists and Al Azahar is not a religion... it is hate. and I understand full well that other faiths consider the Quran holy, but Mosque supporters can not have it both ways. - NoahDavidSimon

our soldiers should be protecting us, we should not limit our civil liberties to protect the soldiers. - The Black Book

I agree, the US needs to condemn Islam, the Quran is not a holy book, it is the book of a mad man that preaches hate;we need to treat it like the cult it is. Islam should not be protected under our Constitution as everything about it violates our Constitution&freedoms. Have you seen this>>>RT @littlebytesnews An open letter from Tom Burnett, Sr Father of 'Let's Roll" Tom Burnett,Jr-Stop 2nd Mosque a... http://amplify.com/u/9x5w - freedom fighter mom

@freedom fighter mom - as distasteful as I find *all* religions for their history of continued hate and bigotry, 1,400 years of established history as a distinctly monotheistic religion (the 1st cousin of both Judaism and Christianity) undercuts your (and anyone's) assertion that Islam is a cult (edit: the only way that Islam can legitimately be called a cult is if we call ALL religions cults). Further, the 1st Amendment covers *everyone's* right to worship freely and without fear. Gen Petraeus (if you bothered to read the article) was NOT condemning Islam. He was condemning the planned Quran-burning session by Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center that is set to happen this Saturday. - Prosey BUTTONS!

equivalence argument requires comparisons based on examples. something prosepetals has never given about any opinion she has. Let Wahabists and Al Azahar speak for themselves and their irredentist world view... sadly as irredentist as some of the atheists on this thread. and yes I heard and forgot about the Mosque being planned in Pennsylvania. Sadly too many people here are what Lenin and Stalin called useful idiots. - NoahDavidSimon

...a final thought. http://www.youtube.com/watch... if our military was doing what it should be doing.... bombing and killing the enemy instead of acting like the Peace Corps.... how could it be that American civilians would be putting the soldiers in danger? If there truly were a real threat to soldiers lives then the question remains... why are we sending ground troops? we should commence bombing all Islamic targets immediately if what Petraeus is claiming is true. Sometimes I have to conclude that the one offense a man can do in this world that is unforgivable is to be weak. I say with conviction: The cause of righteousness has never been stronger and the argument of totalitarianism has never been weaker. Israel is not the one who is scrambling in panic. It's enemies are. I have never felt more optimistic then at our darkest hour. When our enemies have to hide behind a U.S. general to discipline civilians. you know they are getting desperate. - NoahDavidSimon

Here is what happens when America Betrays Israel http://wibi.us/cZLo06 I wanted to say this for so long. yeah bitches... how you like your asses served now? America supports Hezbollah and Hamas just like Russia does. With friends like America. who needs enemies? Israel has all the research and knowledge in technology. Moscow unlike the United States will not allow a Mosque in Moscow as Putin says... till Mecca has a church. America did it to itself. you thought you could just bully Israel. you were wrong. with just about every country in the world with nukes, the leverage will come from Israel. - NoahDavidSimon

Noah -- have you noticed that most Americans aren't attacking, abusing or threatening their fellow Americans over ethnic nationalist issues or the interests of a foreign government? Any thoughts on that? Have you noticed that the majority of Friendfeed users and Americans in general are *not* angry and aggressive ethnic nationalists? - Sean McBride

Noah -- Is this fair? So far you have given the impression that you are anti-American, anti-David Petraeus, anti-freedom of religion, anti-US Constitution and Bill of Rights, pro-anti-Muslim hate speech, pro-Baruch Goldstein, pro-Baruch Goldstein massacre, pro-book burning, pro-Christian Zionists, pro-Iran War, pro-Iraq War, pro-Israeli settlements, pro-JDL (Jewish Defense League), pro-Jewish terrorism, pro-JIDF (Jewish Internet Defense Force), pro-Kahanism, pro-Meir Kahane, pro-neoconservatives, pro-Quran burning, pro-Terry Jones, pro-Yigal Amir and pro-Yitzhak Rabin assassination. Any changes or qualifications you'd like to make to the above profile? - Sean McBride

it is fair because like you Sean... America made a strawman argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Now you lose your most educated... just like Hitler did. - NoahDavidSimon

Noah -- I meant is the profile of your beliefs fair: pro-Baruch Goldstein massacre? pro-Yitzhak Rabin assassination? anti-US Constitution and Bill of Rights? etc. Regarding your other point: many very bright people continue to reside in the United States and have no intention of moving to Israel. And many bright people live in China, Europe, India and other nations. - Sean McBride

Noah -- how Americans and people all around the world are reacting to anti-Muslim bigotry coming from pro-Israel activists: try browsing Twitterspace regarding the latest Martin Peretz contretemps: http://topsy.com/s... and http://topsy.com/s... Opinion is running overwhelmingly against Peretz. - Sean McBride

any hostile reaction to Zionism will not serve any country well. When you attack an educated population and blame them for the world's ills for striving for the safety of a Republic of their own then you suffer the consequences. weapon technology is the tip of the iceberg. Israel was the only economy that weathered a very nasty financial storm... and the answer to this is because of financial know how. America just doesn't have the knowledge to compete on so many fronts without a Jewish community. - NoahDavidSimon

imagine so many technologies that these so called savage people called Jews have... it was America's and now it isn't America's. A goldmine of know how... going to countries that are desperate and will pay top dollar. no longer will Jewish innovation be limited to alliances. and you can call us names and say we are the racists and you might even get a few Jews to nod their head in fear of your wrath, but in the end even the Juden rat will leave because even they want to raise families and have a future. you deny us the basic dignity allowed to every other people. you ask us to live with people that have a belief that it is their right to kill us. But you ostracize the people doing the AIDS research and your cell phone chips. and no I'm not saying that we are superior... but you also chase away the best teachers to train the world. You can't even grow your own. - NoahDavidSimon

Noah -- do you understand that words and sentiments like yours could easily destroy Israel's relations with the entire world, and especially with the United States? Do you have any idea how much Israeli high tech is dependent on American universities, research centers and companies, and what would happen if all those connections were broken? Do you notice any members of other ethnic or religious groups on the American scene making these kinds of bizarre threats against Americans? - Sean McBride

as rabbi Kahane said: We could care less. When you need help running your economy you will overlook our reputation because we will be the only country in luxury while everyone else spends their way into hell. We've been at it thousands of years. We will no longer let you make demands on us. you will be lucky to get our help. enjoy your Zion free America - NoahDavidSimon

Noah -- sometimes one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry. But this is duly noted: you don't want to disavow support for the Baruch Goldstein massacre and Yitzhak Rabin assassination. You're officially radioactive. - Sean McBride

you act like there is a degree of support for a Jewish state you support lol. we don't work with those who believe the Hadith of the Tree of the Jews. Moscow has no Mosques. they are cold blooded... which is better then the orchestrated hate hitting the west right now. as I speak my cousins are spreading out into the international arena. their value increased. this is the best thing for Israel. - NoahDavidSimon

This is your brain on messianic ethno-religious cultism -- a closed loop with no contact at any point with the real world. - Sean McBride

this mongoloid Petraeus. he can't even find a suit that fits him. every time I see his image I crack up. Putin is now a Zionist eh? ok then. BURN THE FUCKING QURAN http://www.facebook.com/video... - NoahDavidSimon

In reading through Noah's blithering commentary, my conclusion is that his erroneous assumption is that people don't recognize the plight of Israel and the Jewish peoples, or the history of subjugation at a horrific level -- dating further back than the Egyptians. Most of us (unless we have zero frame of history) recognize and understand those facts. To stop there, though, as Noah clearly does (evidenced by his speaking of Goldstein as though he's some sort of hero instead of a terrorist and coward), is beyond faulty. That he would declare a strawman simply because I didn't provide a comparison to both Christianity and Islam is -in itself- weak and pathetic. One does not need to draw a comparison to know that certain behaviors are wrong. To acknowledge that the planned "demonstrations" Saturday is wrong does not in any way undercut that it is protected by the 1st Amendment, and any psycho-babble beyond that is precisely that: psycho-babble. Should Terry Jones be stopped from doing this? No. Should he do it? No. Both of those things are true. *shrug* - Prosey BUTTONS!

prosepetals sez me: this acknowledgment of the first amendment right of this church is a little late in the thread for you. your instincts are poor.... as is your knowledge of Jewish experience this decade. There were 1,606 hate crime offenses motivated by religious bias in 2008. A breakdown of these offenses shows: * 65.7 percent were anti-Jewish. * 13.2 percent were anti-other religion. * 7.7 percent were anti-Islamic. * 4.7 percent were anti-Catholic. * 4.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, group. * 3.7 percent were anti-Protestant. * 0.9 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. (Based on Table 1.) via fbi.gov In 2001 (the year of 9/11), there were twice as many anti-Jewish incidents [in America] as there were anti-Muslim, according to the FBI. In 2002 and pretty much every year since, anti-Jewish incidents have outstripped anti-Muslim incidents by at least 6 to 1. - NoahDavidSimon

...and yet this profile of McBride cries of Islamic abuse... but the numbers say otherwise. and you are doubly (no exponentially) wrong. it isn't just Jews who feel this way about Obama and this government of hate that is running our country. our Christian brothers are screaming... please take us with you. It leaves me in tears what you and your Anti-Zionist Religion bashers have done to our culture - NoahDavidSimon

Noah: I'm not sure what your point is -- everyone here strongly opposes hate speech and hate acts directed against any ethnic or religious group. You, on the other hand, have expressed support for shooting innocent civilian religionists you dislike in the back while they are at prayer in their house of worship. You haven't precisely staked out a position on the moral high ground. Your hate rhetoric against Muslims is identical in tone and themes to Nazi hate propaganda against Jews. Real Americans want none of it. - Sean McBride

you have made hate a universal quality to be detested. there is plenty that is just to hate. you continue to orchestrate stupidity and vulgarity. - NoahDavidSimon

Wrong, Noah. I've said from the beginning (of which I do not know whether or not you are aware) that the 1st Amendment does indeed protect the reverend. From the moment I first read the article, that was a thought, but a passing one - since the matter of protection of the *right* to host this soiree isn't an issue. It should be obvious even to you that the 1st Amendment protects the right to host the event. The matter of whether he should or shouldn't is a whole different matter. What my actual point was (and one that you've conveniently ignored) is a matter neither of whether it's protected nor whether he should. Those things are moot. Jones IS going to go through with it. No matter how repugnant it is - and no matter how loudly you shout in agreement with him. Those points are completely irrelevant. What you don't seem to realize -or if you do, you don't care- is that the timing of this travesty leaves little room for question that his and his church's actions are little more than blatant opportunism to increase his following (thereby his finances) in the name of something that is detrimental to other people - about whom he cares not a whit. Which is underscored by Sean's last comment. Your evident hatred of *any* group of people for actions (real or perceived) is just as vile and contemptible as the very groups of extremists you disparage. It makes you identical to them. A figure to be pitied, to be sure...but not one to be taken seriously beyond awareness that you exist. - Prosey BUTTONS!

prosepetals -- what we know is that people who share Noah's extremist beliefs have a track record in acting on them in murderous ways -- there are numerous examples, a few of which I have alluded to above. Ethnic and religious nationalist true believers often resort to violence to try to achieve their objectives. Violence, often terrorist violence, comes with the ideological mindset. - Sean McBride

@prosepetals sez meh I'm not forgetting to get back with a bit more elaboration on that other thread. Hope to do it soon, just busy as hell lately. I'll try to bullet point, or as close as, what I think on this: 1. the burning of these books is idiotic and exceptionally bad mannered 2. Notwithstanding that they're perfectly entitled to do it. 3. whatever happened to old school generals who simply got the fuck on with the job? I mean really, if someone breaks wind within 50 meters of a Mosque this Petraeus dude is on banging and on and on about how this endangers troops. Surely troops, especially American one are in the field to protect western freedoms not demand they be curtailed? 4. it's interesting to observe that the usual crew, no disrespect, who take me to task for declaring that Islam, at least the unreformed Sunni variety, is incompatible with western democratic values are also the same people now declaring that a bunch of hicks in Florida burning a few books are, in effect, putting American troops in danger all over the middle east. People. Logic. Apply. Please. - JSLeFanu

And Pastor Jones has a history: http://www.spiegel.de/interna... - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

From the Spiegel article: "Terry Jones Accused of 'Spiritual Abuse' at Cologne Church" -- "US fundamentalist pastor Terry Jones, who wants to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, ran a church in the western German city of Cologne until last year when members of the congregation expelled him. Former members have spoken of his hate-filled sermons and insistence on "blind obedience."" - Sean McBride

everyone is invited! http://www.facebook.com/pages... BURN THE QURAN DAY! - NoahDavidSimon

@JS- When you're able, I'll continue to watch that thread. I actually agree with you on #3. My *personal* feeling is that military personnel should stay out of civilian matters except in their capacity as private citizens. While I agree with Petraeus' perspective, I also grew up in (and was previously married to) the military, so my understanding of the military perspective is skewed in favor of them doing their job in the field (which rarely interfaces with domestic civilian scenarios - and very rarely in this particular capacity). Insofar as endangering troops, what I feel is left out isn't just *Americans* -- but Christians in those parts of the world who might be at increased risk because of one man's misguided mission. As for #4...my viewpoints are consistent, regardless of which religious ideology we're referring to, actually. It just happens that right now we're talking about Christian extremists behaving (typically) rashly. I dislike extremists of any ilk, and though they have every right to their views, shoving it in others' faces is deplorable. - Prosey BUTTONS!

Sean, in a completely unrelated thought...Rude Pundit called Terry Jones "Pastor Yosemite Sam" -- which I found really amusing - I had to do a mental double-take. LOL - Prosey BUTTONS!

if you can't burn a whole Quran. make sure to print out some Hadiths at the very least. don't be afraid. WE WILL NEVER SUBMIT. there is nothing holy about Mohammad (PISS BE UPON HIM). in the mean time I have half the Islamic world emailing me now to try to convert me to Islam.... and I know the eventual meaning of it. After they fail to convert you... they kill you. Like Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam. FIGHT! Burn the Quran while you are still living. - NoahDavidSimon

David Petraeus, OK to burn Bibles, not OK to burn Koran! http://edition.cnn.com/2009... - NoahDavidSimon

Two interesting links. Thanks guys. - JSLeFanu from FFHound!