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David C. Cooper
Obama Joker Poster Popping Up In Los Angeles | NewsBusters.org - http://newsbusters.org/blogs...
Obama Joker Poster Popping Up In Los Angeles | NewsBusters.org
"posted" - David C. Cooper from Bookmarklet
I want to hire the guy who thought of this to market something. Quick somebody give me something to market! ^^ We'll make billions!!!! O.O - David C. Cooper
Socialism? Bwahahahah! - Ayşe E.
Ayşe, I'm laughing at that too. I think it was used because it fits on the poster, not, you know, because any thought was involved. - Anika
Heh, Anika. The dude's Photoshop skillz are def. stronger than his analytical skills. - Ayşe E.
Robert, try as she might she couldn't fit "you betcha!" on there. ;) - Ayşe E.
Is she getting divorced? How it went from O to her, it doesn't figure. - Myrna
Funny how liberals lose their sense of humor when the Dear Leader is lampooned. One must have a thick skin and the courage of your convictions. - Robert Kenney
And the joke is... ? You people who think we can't laugh at Obama have missed the /hilarious/ jokes the Onion has done. (Ex: http://www.theonion.com/content... )The difference is, the Onion took time to _do something funny_. - Andrew C (✔)
Wait, you mean some people DON'T find this funny?!?! Wha…? o.o - David C. Cooper
I find it kinda artsy - Myrna
It's a marginally humourous juxtaposition, but the implied point is both banal and not particularly coherent. - Andrew C (✔)
The 'shop is well done. - Andrew C (✔)
Hey, I'm still laughing at the "socialism" tagline. *snort* - Ayşe E.
I find the juxtaposition between a right-wing talking point addressed in a classic leftist graffiti concept both interesting and humorous. I can't wait the see the Che-style t-shirts replaced with ones of Ayn Rand wearing a beret with a dollar symbol. - Rob H.
What are you talking about? "Socialism" is hilarious. I am truly laughing at this image. Okay, well more at whoever thought it was clever. But as the others said, it the juxtaposition that makes it a lot more funny. - Anika
Funnier now that I see it's a reference to The Joker. At first I thought it was someone's idea of putting him in whiteface like in a minstrel show. That would not be funny. The juxtaposition between the image of The Joker and the idea of socialism is strange, though. - Katy S
OK, Robert, Anika, you guys are right. I didn't get it at first. - Andrew C (✔)
Huh? Wingnutters have great sense of humor! I mean... I'm laughing at them, they must be funny, right? - Adrian
I love that this is somehow a news story. It's the equivalent of a story saying "I saw a bumper sticker one time that said 'Visualize Whirled Peas', who's behind it?" - Andrew
Yeah, the libtards in Germany probably thought Hitler was pretty funny when he was building HIS socialist tyranny too. How ironic, or is it more coincidental? - David C. Cooper
I want copies of this poster to put up near the interstate. ^^ - pitlord
Rene, I know the truth hurts, but citing wikipedia as a reference = FAIL! Hitler's form of government fits the definition of Socialism to a "t" – as does Obamas. - David C. Cooper
@David: In particular, read the following from that link: "In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany. Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "German blood." Jews and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end." Hitler was not a socialist. He was a fascist. HUGE difference. - Prosey BUTTONS!
David is right, Obama is installing a soft tyranny by nationalizing key segments of the economy like the banks, industry and now health care bringing them under his control, much like Hitler did. NOt to mention the way he's trying to circumvent our system of checks and balances by appointing his own team of czars and granting them unilateral power without any congressional or judicial oversight. - pitlord
It's important to remember that, with the exception of Healthcare, Obama is only following the path laid out by the Bush administration. They were the ones who "Nationalized" the banks and began the process of pushing the Auto industry down this path. It's also important to remember that every step he and Bush have taken are either temporary, in the case of the Auto industry and banking, or one alternative in a field of private options, in the case of the as-yet-unpassed Healthcare bill(s). - Andrew
@Pitlord: Soft tyranny? Pffft..."In effect, soft tyranny occurs whenever the social conditions of a particular community hinder any prospect of hope among its members." -- To which community are you referring here? The role of government is the protection of its citizens. Insofar as health care - private insurance and HMOs have had absolutely detrimental impacts on patient care - and in particular women's health - for decades. If the government plays a role in ensuring coverage across the board, then the government is FINALLY doing its job in the protection of its citizens there. So the only particular community having its hope hindered are the people with the deep pockets in the health insurance industry. Aww...so sad. - Prosey BUTTONS!
If you reject that Obama is a classicly trained socialist, then you should invest a few hours reading his history. His family history, his upbringing, his education, his associations through-out his adult life, his writings, his statements. All reflect a man supportive and an advocate of socialism. His trail is clear, supported with links, videos, and websites. Few "educated" voters took the time to understand, or blindly refused to accept that he is socialistic in his governance. Some Americans (60M+) knew and understood what his election will mean to the country. - Robert Kenney
Rene, you obviously don't have a valid rebuttal to my examples of exactly how Obama is driving our once great country over the edge into the very abyss that you mention. Bush made mistakes and now Obama has made MORE mistakes in less than 8 months than Bush did in 8 years. Don't worry, idiots like Pelosi, Reid, Waxman and Frank haven't escaped the public notice either. In a little more than 3 years they will lose their seat of power and we will start cleaning up the mess they've created. You are only upset because you can see that, G-d willing, America will not going to sit still and let you socialists destroy our capitalistic, democratic republic that our founders and fore fathers fought for and died to build. - pitlord
*blink* Democratic republic? Pitlord, what history book were you fed in school? We're a Constitutional Republic based loosely on democratic principle - and capitalism wasn't the ideal of the forefathers. It was, in fact, discouraged by many of the forefathers as dangerous in terms of avarice compromising individual integrity. The rest of what you've said here is distilled McCarthyistic nonsense, and I'm having difficulty believing that anyone alive today actually buys into that mentality. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Bush: Only authorized 1/2 of the TARP money. Everything else in on Obama and Congress. All 3 houses controlled by Democrats. They can vote for anything and force it through. Period. Everything that happens via Washington is on the Democrats. In Congress since 2006, and the last 6 months in the White House. Our economy, taxes, deficits, spending, all on the Democrats. Blaming Bush is old news and doesn't work anymore. - Robert Kenney
I'd like to know why is Obamacare more concerned with covering illegal immigrants than it is actual citizens? (pg 132 aahca.pdf) http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_1... - pitlord
Denise, we all can't believe that anybody agrees with Obama either. ^^ - pitlord
@Pitlord - Who is we in this instance? Michelle Bachmann? Michelle Malkin? Sarah Palin? Ann Coulter? Oh wait...there's a pattern in that "we" there that I'm certainly not a part of. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene we love LEGAL immigrants you're the ones who want to grant immunity to ILLEGALS while forcing those who've been waiting in line LEGALLY to go back to square one and start over again! - pitlord
Denise, I'm sorry that you're so threatened by the fact that there is a large number of "we" on my side of this debate, did you seriously thing I was alone? - pitlord
Pitlord - that is patently offensive. I'm the granddaughter of those legal immigrants to whom you refer - oh and yes, that would be Mexican legals. My dad? 21 years retired US military - and being offended certainly isn't the same thing as being "threatened." Stupidity comes in many forms, as your remarks have shown. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene, thanks for naming all of the world countries who are becoming over run and destroyed as your shining example of socialism. We will not let you idiots turn our great country in to Europe so prepare to lose that fight. - pitlord
Pitlord, when was the last time you were actually in Europe? Where did you see - firsthand, with your own two eyes - those named countries "over run and destroyed"? Oh, you didn't? Surprise, surprise, surprise. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, yeah and my grand parents came here from Russia escaping the pogroms a century ago what's your point? With your background you should be sympathetic to the problem of illegal immigration. G-d willing, we will begin enforcing our laws and secure our borders. - pitlord
I'm sympathetic to the fact that the US holds a heavy burden of blame with its desire for weaponry - as well as our complicity in Mexican politics. Illegal immigration is a problem, yes. But making an asinine statement -what was it you said again?- "we love LEGAL immigrants you're the ones who want to grant immunity to ILLEGALS while forcing those who've been waiting in line LEGALLY to go back to square one and start over again!" -- statements like that are a testament to ignorance. - Prosey BUTTONS!
I just realized. I'm breaking my own rules by engaging with an irrational person. *blink* One must know when to walk away - lest risk catching the stupid. - Prosey BUTTONS!
The Dutch sound great... when are you moving? Here's a link to Kayak http://www.kayak.com/ . Need boxes? http://www.movingdayboxes.com/ Also be sure to take some friends with you, the more the merrier. - Robert Kenney
Ethan, follow the Obama plan and you'll end up with massive inflation and unemployment. A completely disabled and anorexic economy ripe for the take over that you socialists are frothing at the mouth for. And rampant crime. That's why you will be stopped. - pitlord
Denise, Rene, et al: It's obvious that you're losing the argument when your only response is insults. Thanks for playing have a nice day, buh-bye now. ^^ - pitlord
+1 Robert (X^P - pitlord
@Ethan: I know ...right??? Sheeez..... +1 - Robert Kenney
Well, this conversation certainly devolved quickly. I suppose civility is out of the question at this point in time. - Katy S
For those of you opposed to Socialism, where is your line? There are many 'Socialistic' services that the government provides and has for many years and every single one of us takes advantage of and relies upon for our daily existance. For instance Social Security, Medicare, K-12 Education, Community College, Streets, Sewer, Water Service, Police, Fire, the list goes on and on. So where is the line? - Jeff P. Henderson
@Katy - nah, I'm usually quite civil, except when someone is being deliberately offensive. ;) @Jeff: Excellent points. *nod* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Jeff that's exactly the point, where is the line? You socialists seem to want EVERYTHING to be run and funded by some government organization so you never have to work or be productive. You can't stand the fact that some people will do better in life than others based on their own personal productivity so you seem to have this obsession with trying to legislate mediocrity forcing everyone to be as pathetic as you. It is only through conservative values and ideals that people are given the opportunity to realize their true potential in this world. - pitlord
@Rene: Yeah, Robert makes an amusing comment there. Interesting that the true irony of his comment is completely lost on him - though in fairness, that is not his fault. *chuckle* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Like Margaret Thatcher said: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ^^ - pitlord
pitlord, I'm not a socialist, just asking the question. I'm actually pretty middle of the road politically. There are certainly some services run by the government that that work well, and many that do not. I'm curious to hear what people think form both ends of the spectum. - Jeff P. Henderson
Rene, I can be condescending too, look: socialism |ˈsō sh əˌlizəm| noun a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. • policy or practice based on this theory. • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism. - pitlord
I'd like to see someone successfully argue that the United States isn't currently a socialist country or wasn't during George W's term. - iTad
@Robert - funny, you took that personally - I wasn't insulting you. When I said it wasn't your fault - because you don't know the background of the statement you made that I find amusing - and Rene does. It wasn't an attack...put your claws away. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Tad, that was kind of the underlying point of my question above. We already have a significant number of 'Socialist' programs that if removed, a majority of the population would scream bloody murder over. - Jeff P. Henderson
+1 Ethan - Prosey BUTTONS!
We're quite the pair because we're married. *blank stare* Trolling...fun hobby, so I hear. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene, Oh yea I forgot one of the biggest Government sponsored programs, the Military! - Jeff P. Henderson
Ethan, actually a lot of activities normally performed buy military staff have been contracted out in Iraq. I'm not sure to what level of success these activities have been executed. - Jeff P. Henderson
Glad you all brought up the military, because the military budget is still dwarfed by your social assistance programs. - pitlord
Ethan, how about we let banks and car companies declare bankruptcy instead of GIVING them TRILLIONS of our dollars? Especially since the CEOs of those companies who got bail out money are now among Obama's cabinet and cadre of Czars. Funny how the biggest competitor of Obama's buddies at Goldman Sach's was among the few financial giants that were allowed to fail. >.> - pitlord
Rene, really? So what happens when we add all of the money we send to fund terrorist organizations like Fatah, the corporate welfare that's handed out before we even start getting INTO bailout money and the "educational" and social justice programs we fund to teach kids how to have sex and the unemployed how to buy houses they can't afford to YOUR side of the equation? - pitlord
Ethan, you'd rather cut the spending that protects freedom and liberty than the spending that funds pornography in schools? - pitlord
*shakes head* We didn't just delve into the abstinence-only rhetoric, did we?? What does that have to do with the defense budget? Oh wait... - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene, I agree with you too. McCain needs to be replaced with a real conservative. ^^ - pitlord
@Ethan...but of course. You see, the sanctity of life must be preserved from fetus until birth...then cost tax-payer dollars to listen to crap like this lady witnessed: http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/index...... then join the Army. It's the whole circle of life thing. - Prosey BUTTONS!
+1 Ethan :D - Prosey BUTTONS!
So nobody can deny that you prefer wasteful spending on ineffective and offensive public programs over funding the incredible work our military does around the world defending liberty and freedom? Surprise, surprise. >.> - pitlord
Programs like education, I would guess. He doesn't seem to grasp that nobody here is insulting the military. Just the leaders who order our men & women in uniform into other countries. - Prosey BUTTONS!
*laughing* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene, what an oxymoron. Republicans are the ones who enlist and die to protect your right to spout your hatred towards them. - pitlord
Really, Pitlord? The entire military is comprised of Republicans? You sure about that? - Prosey BUTTONS!
Wow, step away from the US-politics room for a few hours and it goes NUTS. - Andrew C (✔)
@pitlord, "how about we let banks and car companies declare bankruptcy instead of GIVING them TRILLIONS of our dollars?" I'm sorry, but the government didn't "GIVE" any of these companies money! It is a loan. And in fact, many banks have already paid the US Government back ALL of the TARP money that was loaned to them WITH INTEREST! - Jeff P. Henderson
Ethan, that's because you consider ousting a tyrannical dictator who repeatedly defied the international communities appeals to let them see if he was preparing to kill innocent people a "false pretense." The rest of America is not so blind. - pitlord
@Rene, np. It's a handy compendium of people I will probably block within a week. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew can't handle opposing veiwpoints. - pitlord
Jeff, you mean like the ones who didn't WANT the TARP money to begin with and were blackmailed into accepting the "loans?" - pitlord
Ethan, once again you prove the left's propensity for resorting to insults when facts fail them. -_- - pitlord
@pitlord - I can handle opposing viewpoints, but from people who seem hermetically sealed against facts? Who are so deranged as to call Hitler a socialist? I have better things to do than talk to people that dishonest or stupid. - Andrew C (✔)
Ethan, Iraq was invaded by an international coalition led by the U.S. to enforce United Nations resolutions against Saddam Hussein and his dictatorial oppression of the innocent people of Iraq. - pitlord
Weren't those resolutions about his 'refusal to disarm'? - Andrew C (✔)
I mean, here's the thing: you're talking to people who were born before 2003 and who in fact actually remember what went on at that time. - Andrew C (✔)
Rene, I can't believe you're bringing up the AWOL story, not after a Bush defender brought up dental records from the Alabama base, even if they were dated from after he had purportedly returned to his Texas base. *cough* =) - Andrew C (✔)
It's great to live in a country where you can legally mock the President of the United States of America. Free speech is a wonderful thing. - Thomas Hawk
they should do a African Joker for the next movie... it really does look creepy - NoahDavidSimon
in the cartoon Batman Beyond they had a dark voiced Joker who was obviously Black http://www.nerf-herders-anonymous.net/images... - NoahDavidSimon
ROFL (8^D You know what is really funny? To realize that all of you are so out of ammunition that you have so completely lost the argument that you have to resort to character attacks. Obama is a socialist and if you want to see an illustration of real double talk check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch... - pitlord
If you don't know why that video is misleading - the parts it cuts out - then you're not having an informed discussion. And if you /do/ know and shared it anyways, then you're being ridiculously dishonest. The thing progressives decry about Obama is that in fact, he is far too cautious. He admits that a single-payer system is preferable; he has /also/ said that he prefers to reform the existing system rather than replace it wholesale with single-payer. - Andrew C (✔)
That reminds me - you never did answer the question of whether "all" enlistees in the military are Republican...? Or was that a convenient oversight on your part, David pitlord? - Prosey BUTTONS!
I can't believe this has gone on this long and Pitlord hasn't brought up the fact that Obama isn't even a citizen! (rolls eyes) Social programs are a good thing... they provide benefits to my fellow country men, which I consider a great use of my taxes. It's these kinds of ideals that made me proud of my country and why I served in the military for 10 years. If you want to label it 'socialism' so be it, but I think providing for the citizens of your country is noble and patriotic. Would the phrase 'All men are created EQUAL' be a socialist statement to you as well? - Vince DeGeorge from BuddyFeed
Niiiiiiiiiiice! *salutes Vince* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Clearly, he's an underground freedom warrior fighting the good fight against the totalitarian society of the US that it inevitably developed into after the introduction of Medicare, just as Reagan warned about in 1961. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, Obama changes his tune depending on the audience. My tune has been consistent and you will notice that you have only heard from me since yesterday. You call the video misleading but you can't point out how or where it is misleading. Obama claims he's not trying to drive private insurance out of business at one venue and admits he wants replace it all with private insurance in another. - pitlord
Denise nobody answered your question because it was laughable, you are the only person who ever claimed that our entire military is registered as Republican. - pitlord
Vince if you love giving away your money for social programs you have the right to donate any amount you like to your favorite program and history has shown that private charities do a far more efficient job of fulfilling their charter than any government program. You do not have the right to compel other citizens to donate to YOUR chosen charity. And if you love social programs so much why would you support a candidate who wants to tax charitable donations? - pitlord
Actually - that was you, stud...You said, "Rene, what an oxymoron. Republicans are the ones who enlist and die to protect your right to spout your hatred towards them. - pitlord" .... check yourself on that. I just called YOU out on it - and you, typical of your ilk, tried to spin it back. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, what I said is true and I never said "only" Republicans. I would suggest that liberals who do enlist do so for their own personal gain and not because they believe in defending the principles of our Constitution. - pitlord
Very weak, pitlord...even for you. This is what is called plausible deniability - and you suck at it. Maybe you should run for president after all. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene apparently you cannot conceive of a world where you are responsible for your own success in life. You all seem to think it is the job of the government to micro manage your lives so that if anything goes wrong you can complain to some government agency instead of doing something to improve your own life. - pitlord
"You call the video misleading but you can't point out how or where it is misleading." - I did! Right there! I said the editing was misleading because it cut out all of Obama's hedging! - Andrew C (✔)
Once again, none of you can seem to argue the issues of personal responsibility vs. government interference so you resort to personal attacks. - pitlord
BTW, if you think charities are more efficient than gov't, surely you could find _studies_ that show that? And I find it amazing you can whine about personal attacks when _all you do_ is make them. See just the post starting with "Rene apparently you cannot conceive of a world where you are responsible for your own success in life. " for starters. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, so because the video cut out the crap it is somehow misleading? Rene responded to one of my statements with "… so dumb, inconceivable …" how is it a personal attack to address her claim that my argument is "inconceivable? - pitlord
Andrew, the "studies" I cite are real world results of millions of people who are helped every day by grass roots community organizations who feed, clothe and house the sick and poor without the need for government interference. - pitlord
Oh, I see. There are also millions of people helped by the government every day, but I guess those aren't "studies". - Andrew C (✔)
Medicare and Medicaid, Social Security, the VA system all are going broke and cannot be sustained at ANY level of taxation. If a private charity goes broke it shuts down, yet we are expected to pay ever higher taxes to support these financial black holes? - pitlord
Medicare's spending has actually gone up _slower_ than private health care spending. Is the private system also unsustainable? - Andrew C (✔)
Aww pitlord, I have the distinct impression you don't like me very much - and am terribly saddened by it. /sarcasm Given then neither Rene nor I have not once discussed our respective views on personal/individual responsibility, that would be another ill-conceived assumption on your part - since NOWHERE did Rene state that the role of government was to micromanage lives. In fact - I was the one who stated the role of government - which is the protection of its citizens. Nowhere in that do I even say what my view of personal/individual responsibility is. I happen to agree with a portion of what you said - but the irony that seems to be lost on you is the similarity to the classic socialist premise there in your own words. *rolls eyes and laughs* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, you are supporting a program that completely removes the responsibility of managing your personal health care from the individual and places it into the hands of a faceless government bureaucracy. How does that make you an advocate of personal responsibility? Obviously your idea of "classic" socialism is flawed. - pitlord
So much worse than a face-ful private insurer bureaucracy, amirite? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, that is because Medicare is forcing providers to take 75-80% of their pay. Do you think anybody is going to bother taking the extra time to finish med school when they find out that they aren't going to be making any more money than they would as an accountant? - pitlord
*laughing* No, that isn't what I said. Where did I say that? When we're looking at socialized medicine, we should take a look at the largest, successfully run socialized medical program in the world - which is not in another country. It is Tricare - you know, the "insurance" that is actually an entitlement program - golly, but I must be some kind of raving socialist to suggest that what is good enough for our armed forces and their family members isn't good enough for the rest of the country. It *MUST* go into the hands of the private sector right....? In order for me to be a "good" capitalist? *LOL* I am a capitalist, amigo....your assumptions are really quite interesting. - Prosey BUTTONS!
The providers get the 25-20% rest back either in individual co-pays or supplemental insurance. Nice try! - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, you have a choice of private insurers, you will have no choice in a single payer system - pitlord
And don't even get me started on how what is good enough for our ELECTED officials should likewise be good enough for the citizens as well... - Prosey BUTTONS!
When I worked in the States, my employer offered me precisely two choices: one HMO and one PPO. Individual insurance would have been well out of my price range, and I was making considerably more than US median income. - Andrew C (✔)
Denise, good luck getting THAT coverage without being elected to office. - pitlord
Andrew - once we get on the subject of how awful our current employer-based choices, the subject goes completely haywire. *sigh* Worse than this farce of a "debate" going on with pitlord. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Andrew, that is not an argument for a single payer system. I'm sorry if your employer sucks but if it's really that bad go get a better job. - pitlord
@pitlord - Back to Tricare - I had *that* coverage. While it isn't perfect by any means, it's better than what's available in the civilian sector...but again, by definition, it is purely a socialized medical program, which I suppose isn't good enough for you. - Prosey BUTTONS!
What is really funny is how this whole thread began by illustrating that Obama is indeed a socialist and instead of debate that fact you are all arguing about healthcare ignoring the fact that Obama's proposed health care is a socialist program. Ethan, you tell that to Britain and Canada - pitlord
@pitlord - my health care benefits package was actually pretty standard for a US white collar / tech job. - Andrew C (✔)
BTW, the "let them eat cake" philosophy is a winner! You should totally get Republicans to run on that platform: "We'll reform health care by having you guys go get better jobs." It'll totally scale. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, if our income taxes hadn't been raised to ridiculous levels we never would've turned to employer provided health insurance to begin with. The problem is with government interference in public life. We need to eliminate income taxes completely and replace them with a flat consumption tax. Tax on spending and let the people have every dollar they earn. - pitlord
Employer provided health insurance was a union victory , one employers made because it was - at the time - cheaper than raising wages. And if you think those union guys went for it because their income taxes were choking their incomes, well... I'm sure you can provide a source for that claim. *cough* - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, if you open your eyes you can see that it is the democrats who are operating on the "let them eat cake" philosophy. Conservatives support small businesses and entrepreneurs while it is the Liberal Socialists who prefer only to deal with huge monolithic corporations that are "too big to fail." - pitlord
I love how every single thing you've said here is an article of faith that requires no evidence whatsoever. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, if it was a "union" issue why are there so many non-union companies who offer it? - pitlord
I said it was a union victory. Non-union companies added it after that, in part to compete with union companies and to forestall organization at their workplaces. You seem remarkably willing to make up claims rather than produce facts... The point is, your story about how employer provided health insurance came about was completely made up. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, the evidence is the bailouts, the TARP the current HR bill being debated. You are ignoring the evidence all around you. - pitlord
Andrew, you agreed with me that "one employers made because it was - at the time - cheaper than raising wages." Why was it cheaper than wages? Because the taxes on the wages was so high! - pitlord
Even accepting that for a moment for the sake of argument (ignoring how treatment has gotten vastly better at not killing people), then why has employer-provided health insurance zoomed far past regular inflation? Have income taxes fallen too low? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, you also are making claims without any "evidence" but I am informed enough to know what you are talking about and to recognize your mistakes. The point is that these are all socialist programs and the cost for them is unsustainable. I for one, will not sit by and allow this great country to be sold to China. I will fight to give future generations the same liberty and freedom to succeed or fail on their own merits that I was given. - pitlord
It's a damn shame you aren't going to share that information with the class. BTW, which claims would you like some evidence for? - Andrew C (✔)
Informed by what, pitlord? What are your credentials other than your opinion? You've yet to post any credible, verifiable evidence of your claims. You (very clearly) have no background knowledge of human resources development...I'm with Andrew on this totally. Share your special experiential knowledge with the rest of us. *blank stare* - Prosey BUTTONS!
BTW, I would still like to hear if you think that now employer-provided health insurance is too expensive because taxes are too low, or if your logic can only work in one direction. - Andrew C (✔)
The forces that drive health insurance are many including frivolous litigation against doctors which only encourages them to approve expensive and unnecessary test only to avoid a law-suit. This same problem helps to drive providers to invest in expensive (yet unnecessary) new technologies which also drive the cost of care up. http://www.annals.org/cgi... - pitlord
Well...that indeed is a part of it. But it fails to explain why, within private health insurance, for recommended procedures by physicians (not experimental, mind) the people who are responsible for review are either non-medical - or if there is a physician review, it's frequently conducted by a physician who is not within that medical specialty. How do I know that? Years of working not only in the clinical side of healthcare, but also years working within an HMO. The policy is to deny deny deny - and if the patient dies, all the better for the bottom line. Go team! - Prosey BUTTONS!
Well gee whiz! I'm so glad you've managed to prove that Obama is NOT implementing socialism, I was worried for a minute. >.> - pitlord
And while we're at it, we can also discuss the reality of group coverage rates, which affect the patient's ability to obtain necessary patient care, due to "pre-existing conditions" regardless of HIPAA (the portability portion - not the privacy portion). Who is protected cost-wise in group coverage? The employer...not the employee. The employee by the way, is you - me - anyone affected by this type of coverage - which is present regardless of HMO or PPO. That is directly connected with the frivolous litigation you mention - which takes away doctors' ability to actually use medical indicators to treat patients; rather, the doctors have to consider what coverage a patient has in order to treat medical conditions. Yeah, government oversight of that would be a DEFINITE bonus in order to -what's that again?- protect its citizens...because the insurance companies don't really careabout that. - Prosey BUTTONS!
pitlord, what you cited (that annals.org link) talks about _useful_ new technologies, not frivolous spending. BTW, as you -should- know by now, all med-mal payouts in the US - judgments and settlements combined - are around 0.5% of total health care spending ( http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi... ), and I doubt even the most fervent tort reformer would claim 100% of those payouts are for frivolous lawsuits instead of real malpractice. - Andrew C (✔)
Denise, we all agree that the health care system needs to change, but a government run single payer system will be a disaster. - pitlord
The sky is falling!!! - Andrew C (✔)
(further support for that medmal number here: http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archive... ) - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, according to Obama the sky IS falling. He's said that we're in the middle of a "crisis" every time he wants to push through another program to take over another segment of society and put it under government control. - pitlord
Republicans were and are pushing the crisis line too; it's just that their solutions (get rid of Medicare and Social Security) suck. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, those figures are entirely misleading because they only track the dollars that are awarded by the courts and completely ignore the amount of money that is paid out in pre-trial settlements which accounts for most law suits as any lawyer will attest. - pitlord
Actually, no, the second link I posted shows that the figures are for judgments AND settlements combined... ***as I already said***. - Andrew C (✔)
Way to not read. - Andrew C (✔)
@pitfall...okay, so if we're agreed that the system needs to change, but you believe that a "government run single payer system will be a disaster" - what exactly *are* you suggesting as an alternative? - Prosey BUTTONS!
Andrew, the NPDB only tracks settlements and judgements against individual doctors. That completely ignores the billions that are paid out by manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies and other ancillary service providers who are routinely sued in place of an actual doctor because the pockets of these large private businesses are much deeper and a more attractive target than an individual doctor. Why sue the doctor when you can sue the aspirin maker? - pitlord
Good point, pitfall - in favor of government oversight and regulation. The pharmaceutical industry has been sheistering the masses for years...golly, no wonder their deep pockets are being dipped into to fight any change to their profitability...and convincing people like you through McCarthyist fearmongering... - Prosey BUTTONS!
He'll be continuing to call Obama a socialist...and will continue to deny that Dubya and his cronies are criminals guilty of treason. *shrug* That's the general mindset of the right wing conservative of this ilk. - Prosey BUTTONS!
"Why sue the doctor when you can sue the aspirin maker?" - that concept is completely irrelevant to the doctor's medical malpractice insurance or his defensive medicine, though. - Andrew C (✔)
@Andrew: I agree with the point you're making - but the two concepts are obliquely related, when we're looking at medical malpractice related to irresponsible dispensation of pharmaceuticals - and the frequently multi-tiered formularies that are unique to each different insurance carrier. It's a big convoluted mess - but medical malpractice and defensive medicine have a specific area related to the drug companies as well. (Especially when kick-backs are involved...*heavy sigh*.) The point that pitfall makes is totally in favor of government regulation of the industry as a whole in order to protect both patients and physicians. - Prosey BUTTONS!
@Denise: Come to think of it, government regulation of torts is the gov't regulation libertarians love. - Andrew C (✔)
*chuckle* Indeed - that is, if they can make up their minds about what position they actually hold. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene, when you can't win actual arguments why not resort to the hypothetical? ^^ - pitlord
Denise who is fear mongering? Who is prefacing every little pet piece of legislation and spending with the word "crisis?" Certainly not conservatives. - pitlord
If you really want health care problems to go away then put the responsibility back in the hands of the consumer with minimal government oversight and regulation to protect against dangerous abuses. Medical savings accounts that are consumer directed are a much better option than any government run option. Then the decision to save some money or spend for the best treatment falls in the lap of the patient and the doctor where it belongs. - pitlord
pitfall - in other words, your solution is to basically continue on the already unsuccessful path we're on with *further* deregulation. Hmmm...yeah, there are a lot of different reasons that won't work, but I won't go into the flaws of objectivist philosophy with you, since you are clearly stuck in the very propaganda you're trying to deny spreading. *shrug* - Prosey BUTTONS!
...and just to underscore the point - the moment people who call themselves "conservatives" (e.g. YOU) use the term "socialist" like a weapon - that is fear-mongering in action. Most *genuine* conservatives (as opposed to right wing extremists) recognize the various national crises for exactly what they are. Crises. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt - and trying to pretend they're not there and substituting a word like "socialism" for "change" is simply more of the same propagandistic horse manure - and reeks just as badly. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, and while you continue to call me names you are in denial that you are supporting Obama's agenda to transform our country into a socialist tyranny. Calling it a crises doesn't give someone the right to circumvent the very protections we've put in place to handle those crises and just rob the next generation of their income before they've even had a chance to earn it. >< - pitlord
I haven't called you anything that you haven't called yourself, except perhaps a play of words on your chosen username here - representing that which you're walking into. Nothing more. If you'd prefer, I'll call you David. *shrug* And no...I have not once here stated my position on Obama. You simply made an assumption there. Thinking of circumvention, why don't we look to the previous administration for trying to circumvent the very Constitution to pull us out of the economic crisis? Oh wait - it's okay when "your" team does it? *raised eyebrows* - Prosey BUTTONS!
So, wait, the health care "market" is the method to handle the crisis of the explosion in health care costs? - Andrew C (✔)
"when you can't win actual arguments why not resort to the hypothetical?" This is INCREDIBLY rich coming from a guy who's spent all thread ascribing the worst motives to all liberals. - Andrew C (✔)
Really, rather than Fox considering Obama the anti-christ or CNN considering him the messiah - why don't we really look to those who are actually to blame? The members of Congress? (and yeah, I'll cop to the fact that Obama was a member of that elite group...) Most people don't want to acknowledge that, regardless of political affiliation, because that would mean taking on some of what you referred to as personal responsibility - you know, shouldering part of the burden for having voted them into office in the first place. *looks pointedly at you* But that would also bring us BACK to the presidency - and the past 8 years...and most "conservatives" don't want to look at that either. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, nobody is more upset at Bush for the first stimulus than true conservatives. True, it was passed by a Democratic controlled congress including, at the time, Senator Obama which gives us all the more reason to be angry at Bush for not vetoing that disaster. Especially, when any idiot could predict that Obama was going to out-do all previous spending by passing even larger spending bills. I just can't believe there are still people in this country who are okay with the order of magnitude Obama is willing to increase the national debt in his first six months. - pitlord
Do you seriously think it's more than the amount in trillions that Bush added to the debt? - Andrew C (✔)
The irony, David? Is that the one person who actually voted NO...with the reasons reflected by most of the populace of the nation (again, regardless of political affiliation) - was Bernie Sanders. Imagine that. The one member of Congress that springs to mind when the word "socialist" comes up...and in watching the C-Span floor debates - the ONLY senator for whom I had any respect whatsoever during said debates. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Andrew, Obama has approved more spending in seven months than Bush did in the last four years. - pitlord
Denise, the irony is not lost on us conservatives. We have realized that there are plenty of liberals who campaign under the Republican banner and we are preparing to vote them all out of office in 2010. - pitlord
Sean, basically because liberals got upset because conservatives are calling Obama a socialist. - pitlord
In any case, I'll get back to your original post here, since we've gone well off-topic. The "art" picture of Obama that is plastered in LA. Funny in that blog the comparison to Che. Do you really think all, or even most American "liberals" actually think Che was a hero? That is laughable...really. As for voting them "all" out of office come 2010 - that brings everyone back to the biggest problem in this country with respect to politics - the erroneous belief that waiting to vote people out til the next voting session is going to fix anything. It's called complacency, I believe...and is a reminder of how far we (as a collective) have lost track of what our Constitution actually allows. You, by virtue of this thread, have done nothing but add to that problem. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, thank you for your opinion and insults, but if you really think this thread is inconsequential then why do you bother commenting? - pitlord
I'm not insulting you. You've been quite defensive about how I've addressed you, but I assure you, if I insulted you, there would be no question in anyone's mind. I continue commenting, because I'm a believer that *generally* reasonable people can disagree amicably for the most part - and that to truly reach workable agreements, everyone's viewpoint is essential - even yours...no matter how distasteful or disagreeable I find the positions you've presented here. And, I'm waiting for you to present something that is actually factual, rather than just more right wing rhetoric. If it bothers you that I'm commenting in an open space on the Internet that I find interesting in a morbid curiosity kind of way, I'll remind you that I'm free to exercise that right just as you are. *wry grin* - Prosey BUTTONS!
The one cite I can remember him bringing up did not actually support his claim... - Andrew C (✔)
Anyone can clearly look back at this thread and see the links I provided as citations. I also clearly disputed what few citations were offered by your side of the argument. Obama is still a socialist and nobody on your side has successfully disputed that original claim because it is the truth. - pitlord
*laughing* That is self glorification on your part. When given the very definition of socialist, you weren't able to clearly force Obama into that box. Posting a caricature of his face with the word "socialist" underneath it doesn't make Obama a socialist any more than me wearing a shirt with flowers on it makes me a flower - even if I am ProsePetals. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, that's ridiculous. Do we need to break out the crayons again? socialism |ˈsō sh əˌlizəm| noun a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. What to you call nationalizing banking, manufacturing and now attempting to nationalize health care in his first 7 months if not socialism? - pitlord
Which means of production, distribution, and exchange have actually gone to the collective national community, David? Name it for me....pull out you crayons for me. :| - Prosey BUTTONS!
Rene the fact that in your very narrow view point Obama occupies the "center right" of the global political scale is irrelevant to the destruction that his socialist policies are inflicting on our country. And now you are calling people traitors? One of whom isn't even a party to this argument? Very classy. >.> - pitlord
....and c/p'g a definition for socialism, while describing communism...without correct attribution anywhere...well, it actually undercuts your "argument"...all collective affiliations aren't synonymous. Further, looking to another collective affiliation - we're still reeling from the aftermath of Dubya's administration's preferred collective? Hell, I'd take socialism in a heartbeat over fascism. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise I already mentioned banking, when I said manufacturing I was referring to the auto industry and now health care. Did you not read it the first time? - pitlord
Again, David, you're describing communism, not socialism. Think about it. - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise read the rest of that definition of socialism and you will find "• (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism." This is from the New Oxford Dictionary a very liberal publication. - pitlord
See, David, you put up a definition for socialism - a generic dictionary definition, which is fine. But then you turned around and *described* communism. The two words and ideals are NOT synonymous. You have chosen to misapply the term. There are none so blind as those who actively choose to not see. *shrug* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Okay, David - where's the beourgeoisie uprising? - Prosey BUTTONS!
Denise, I was describing what Obama is doing, so you are saying that Obama is not a socialist he is a communist? Rene, your arguments are just getting ridiculous. Who was ever prosecuted as a traitor for "disagreeing" with Bush? - pitlord
Nah, that's called *spinning* David. Nice try, but no dice. You're trying to fabricate something that I'm pointing out does NOT exist here. Marx was a brilliant man, but he didn't follow the theory through til the bloody end. Neither did Jefferson. Capitalism leads to socialism ultimately - not the bastardization of Marxist ideal into communism. I've had this particular debate more times than I care to share here...and sadly, it's lost on people who insist on twisting my own words for their own convenience. - Prosey BUTTONS!
if you are not rich why would you care . sad world we live in that the poor turn on each other . - Lisa zahara Hopkins
Okay, I'm glad everyone here is totally in love with Obama even though he is a socialist. There are plenty of lovely socialist countries around the world. Go there and enjoy your socialism. - pitlord
Thank G-d. ^^ - pitlord
Oh my...step away for just a few minutes and this is what happens...? *laughing* - Prosey BUTTONS!
Okay, let's get real for a minute. David, what is your actual *problem* with socialism, other than the fact that it's based in a collective ideal rather than an individualistic one? Everything you've described here is indicative of communism, NOT socialism. Socialism, being an ideal, doesn't truly exist in any real or practical way - or has that not occurred to anyone who tries with might to use it as a pejorative? I mean honestly? David - you have yet to explain that. My husband is a socialist, by his own admission. I'm a capitalist, and bluntly so, but I am not a proponent of unregulated capitalism. Neither of us is a communist. Both of us, despite our occasional political dispute, become perplexed by people like you who try to charge up debates by mixing and matching terms to promote an agenda that does NOT exist in this country. So...I ask you, which is worse? Redefining terms for convenience in the fashion of sour grapes? Or actually spreading "democracy" when we're not a democracy in the first place? Hmmmm...? - Prosey BUTTONS!
Mosquito buzzes/ A sock puppet makes its case/ Rhetorical FAIL - Katy S
But MVB, don't you want to take part in this little Theatre of the Absurd? - Katy S
And now, I'm genuinely curious David. In your idea of the perfect USA - (getting back to healthcare) - what is your solution to the problems in women's health? Pushing aside collectivism versus individualism, what is your position on the gender disparity in healthcare? This -granting a complete change of subject- is something I cannot help but wonder what your suggested solution is...or do you recognize that there is a problem? - Prosey BUTTONS!
Please don't inflate my ego by letting the debate end here. You know, with my suckling newborn in my arms...the one I'm teaching to someday be a baby-eating commie...lol...it might destroy the entire pro-lie movement, after all, and I wouldn't wanna be responsible for that. - Prosey BUTTONS!
I have to say on the metaphor level this doesn't work for me. Obama is more a two face. Joker doesn't have any reason to do harm... or at least that was the movie's synopsis. socialism has good intentions. - NoahDavidSimon
Obama is a TOOL 4 NWO - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק
now this was an entertaining read.. and as a Brit I'd just like to chime in with a defense of the NHS. It's working a lot better than the system in the US. We have cheaper healthcare, higher average life span (80 compared to US 77), we have a bouyant private healthcare industry to provide additional care, we have mixed private/public healthcare hospitals and GP's. The most I've ever had to do is wait to be seen - but then hospitals around the world work to this philosophy called "triage". If I were in a life threatening condition, I'd be seen immediately. Sure I may be sat for 30 mins with a little pain, but I'm not dying and I'd rather those who were got their treatment before I did. It's called social conscience, try it some day! Oh, and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my doctor doing his job with money the only reason - call me silly, but I'd rather he did it to heal me. BTW, the joker? Isn't he for anarchy rather than socialism? As in no government at all, fend for yourself? Which would be personal responsibility taken to its extreme. How is that linked to socialism? ;) /sarcasm - alphaxion
omg woww lol - Iesha G