Business as usual. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Yep. On his last movie, CNN got Sanjay Gupta to do a hit piece on Moore's movie. Moore was not pleased with that at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Steven Perez from IM

Of course not, because even though his tactics are questionnable, the things he exposes are usually pretty rotten and are being covered up by everyone else. I always snicker when Americans describe themselves are confrontational and honest and straight-forwards, while in reality they are about the least confrontational I have come across in the business world (own experience both inside and outside of US borders), but they are very good at office politics (backstabbing, rumor-mongering, etc). And here's a man who is not afraid to ask the tough questions, but no, he misleads, he decontextualizes, he's liberal ... whatever he needs to be to deflect from the questions at hand will work. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

@Rene: I've found that how confrontational Americans are depends on context. You & I will disagree on this, but I will be confrontational here. You've said that Americans are stupid, rude, abrasive, and unnecessarily confrontational; but here, you're saying that we're the least confrontational you've encountered in the business world. How we "confront" depends on the context - and with relation to business, there is a lot of historical framework that you may or may not be aware of that has shaped how we operate in business. All organizations (globally) have "Peyton Place" mentality in some form or fashion; here, survival sometimes depends on passive aggression. My directness has been a threat to my job more than once. Further, while Americans may be more passive aggressive in the business arena, we're pretty equal to our European counterparts in aggressive confrontational nature in non-business settings - but Americans are harshly judged instead of equal finger-pointing around the table (and our representative behavior abroad is part of that judgment, understandably, for which I have expressed my embarrassment numerous times). As for Michael Moore, it's not that he asks tough questions. It's that he decontextualizes the situations he presents (historically - while more of his recent stuff that isn't quite as true) - and the problem with the current movie is that he is a blatant capitalist who has benefited from sheer opportunism, so now it is affordably convenient for him to denigrate capitalism in favor of social liberalism. He *says* he'd give it all up if there could be more of a balance, but that's one of those things that I'd believe when I actually saw it. Like I've said before, I agree with him politically, but he is just as guilty as politicians with his tactics - even while he brings important points to light. - Prosey BUTTONS!

@PP: correct, in a social setting Americans can be very abrasive and you would think they'd be the same in a business setting. But my guess is that American business people have taken all their lessons from their English counterparts, where the hierarchical structure determines the level of confrontation, ie. a subordinate will be very non-confrontatitional while his upper manager can be very bashful. I've seen this at work in various US companies and what's interesting is that whenever a US company comes to Europe they will warn the locals that they will be very aggressive and fortright, but I've seen them being outbarked by pretty much anyone in most of the western European countries. I don't know if it is a case of ivory tower-ism or just ignorance caused by isolationism. I agree with you that there is backroom politics going on everywhere, but it seems a lot more prevalent in AngloSaxon countries, whereas in countries like Sweden, Holland, Germany, France, Switzerland everyone is pretty much in-your-face; the role of the manager in those countries is actually to iron things out, so the opposite of what I've seen in US comapnies. /tbc - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

As for MM, we will always disagree on him and his tactics. I continue to believe he takes his juxtaposed position to drive a point home. It may not be the most honest technique, but his "enemies" always apply the very same tactcs, so it's like fighting fire with fire. And yes, he capitalized on capitalism, but he is constantly giving away free screenings of his movies, so he is not making as much of a profit as he could, also because he co-finances his own films. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Actually, Rene, the American response in business has little (if anything) to do with the Brits. It has to do with true historical context of our Industrial Revolution and the perspective of *necessity* to work under near-barbaric conditions. This was transpiring parallel with Europe's social revolution - and is one of many reasons for the perception differences between "capitalism" and "socialism" in a business framework (yes, business history reflects into social history---HEAVILY). As for social situations, you (and many Europeans) have first hand experience with the American social structure...and it helps that you know me as well as you do (*wink*)...because really, that passive aggression does take more of a precedent *here* socially than in Europe - but that has varied reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread. Some delves into our military presence (and the age demographic) - many of our soldiers abroad behave in ways overseas that they would NEVER behave here at home. The other classic representation of the US overseas is the monied set (nouveau riche, in particular), who usually embarrassingly garishly wherever they are, with the most abominably atrocious manners imaginable. - Prosey BUTTONS!

And to MM...try reading up on his origins, and how he earned his *original* windfall. What he does now is quite different from how he started out. :) - Prosey BUTTONS!

@ThatDBD: That is a very interesting armchair analysis, and a lot of truth in there. What's missing is the layers of generational values that have undergone as many shifts as they have since the first industrial revolution. Those perspective views play heavily into said leader/follower & master/slave mentality. *nod* - Prosey BUTTONS!

@PP: still, I see a lot of similarities in corporate life between England and the US: a lot of talk, but very little action. Yours and ThatDBD have quite the similar view and I can see how historical corporate development is different between England and the US but the result is pretty much the same: a class based organization. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

@Rene: The similarities you see are cultural - we started as a British colony, after all. *shrug* There are likewise similarities (personality-wise) to several European nationalities (much to the various 'fatherland' chagrin) - something that all-too-often goes ignored. Old saying is that what we see in others we dislike is a way of deflecting similar traits within ourselves. Hmmm...seems there's quite a bit of that going on from both sides. Imagine. ;) - Prosey BUTTONS!