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Alexander van Elsas › Comments
What facebook should have done is set the default of their new privacy settings to non-public. This is just plain... - http://moby.to/9xivto
Stephan Planken and tracy sheridan liked this
it should have said 'evil', but I used up the 140 chars I guess ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
An open letter to Eric Schmidt - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
Clare Dibble, Itachi and LogEx liked this
Well said, Alexander. Something like that should never have come out of his mouth, and he owes the Google community a clarification, if not an apology.
- LogEx
"“If you have something you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing that in the first place”. Maybe I shouldn’t judge these words too harsh, based on a 1 minute video clip, but that is probably one of the dumbest quotes I’ve heard from you, ever."
- Clare Dibble
LogEx thanks. To me it shows the underlying issue. Google may not want to "do evil" but they are constantly in a situation where evil can be done. Making the exchange explicit is a daring step but would be huge.
- Alexander van Elsas
from iPhone
The thing I don't like about Twitter public lists is that there's no consent. Someone could add you to a "child molesters" list, for example: (p.s. blog post from this here: http://friendfeed.com/itafrom...)
PeteJ, Ferdi Zebua, Vinay | विनय and 28 other people liked this
Or a public "douche bags" list, or anything. Public categorization is dangerous in the hands of an individual; at least with aggregate (or crowd-sourced) categorization, the bad apples can be marginalized or removed. But when every list gets an equal voice, or someone popular decides to put you into a shit list, one individual's voice gets to be the loudest based purely on how extreme they are with their categorization. If I'm listed in 50 "technology person" lists, and 1 "fuckwit" list, guess which one stands out?
- Mark Trapp
Which is why I think there's a very good reason why Facebook, FriendFeed, and Google made list categorization private that Twitter completely missed.
- Mark Trapp
And personally, I resent being on "technology" and variant lists. That's like signing me up for spam that I can't opt out or protect myself from.
- Mark Trapp
Look for a big increase in @-reply-spam as this rolls out more widely :(
- LogEx
Makes me wonder what lists Scoble is on then.
- Uncle CW™
people are going to complain. Lawsuits will occur demanding that Twitter remove them from a list.
- Uncle CW™
You can see anyone's list memberships on their profile (another bonehead move): http://twitter.com/Scoblei... He's on mostly technology related lists. But all it takes is one person with a vendetta to use lists as a vehicle for libel or defamation.
- Mark Trapp
Mark, I think you're right. Someone could counter-argue that tweet "equality" has the same issue, but psychologically lists have more weight and cut by implication not expression which is more difficult for a victim to tackle. I've noticed for myself it even feels like a violation when I see a screencap of someone's own Friendfeed page which shows *their* Lists - just the description/name of the list has effect.
- Micah Wittman
I somehow made it on a tech blogging list. I don't think I ever wrote anything about tech blogging. Is there a free food Twitter list. Also, Mark, is Barton's dad on this mythical child molesters list?
- James Ferguson
Barton's dad is on my child molester list. And the state registry's list. The jig is up with him!
- Mark Trapp
I'm not sure it's Twitter's responsibility to prevent users from ding things that could get them sued for libel or defamation. Have some expectation of personal responsibility people.
- Kevin Fox
If you block a user, would that remove you from their lists? But I agree, you should be able to remove yourself (like untagging from a photo on Facebook)
- Stuart Miniman
Kevin: I agree that everyone ought to have personal responsibility, but there's absolutely nothing a person could do to protect themselves from a malicious use of lists other than to close out their account: I can't consent to the categorization, I can't remove myself from the categorization, and categorization is in no way dependent on my actions on Twitter (but rather, the actions of others). The fact that there's that in addition to the lists being attached to my profile page is nuts.
- Mark Trapp
There are a few basic steps Twitter could've taken, and should still take: don't attach lists to a person's profile and allow people to opt out of lists. More extremely, make list memberships opt-in or make all lists private.
- Mark Trapp
This is the problem with Twitter - it's too anonymous. It's the risk you take when you put yourself in such a public environment. If you're okay with that, fine - it's just the risk you take.
- Jesse Stay
Mark, I answered you over on the other thread: http://friendfeed.com/scoblei...
- Alex Schleber
That's a good point, Mark. Interesting discussion.
- joey
Yes, if you block a person who started a list it removes you from all the lists that person put you on.
- michael sean wright
I've said repeatedly, in both my blog post, here, and on Robert Scoble's feed, blocking is not the answer.
- Mark Trapp
One of the bigger problems I have with sites like Facebook is that I have no control over how others see my public profile (right now you'll prob see 16+ yr old girls asking you to contact them, surrounding my profile. I'm happily married, have 4 kids. Mark has a point. It's hard to maintain a personal brand on the web, and others that can classify you (wrongly) won't help. Then again Twitter is 90% bots so I don't think many will notice
- Alexander van Elsas
Mark: I don't understand. You say you can't remove yourself from a list, but you can by blocking the offender. You say that 'blocking isn't the answer' but it seems to be exactly that.
- Kevin Fox
Alexander: I'm on a roll tonight because I don't understand you either. You have pretty fine-grained control of what in your Facebook profile or feed is viewable to the public (or any other) scope, so you have tons of control over how others see your public profile. I don't see the 16+ year old girls asking me to contact them when I look at your profile. I see this: http://fury.com/tmp... What's the offensive part?
- Kevin Fox
Kevin, refresh the page a few times. and you will see other ads as well. The offensive part is that I have NO control over the right side of that page, yet it is directly related to my profile and therefore to my personal brand. This sucks on the web in general, but it sucks more on a site that is supposed to contain my dearest connections. I'm confusing everyone here it seems. I better stop talking now ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
btw, this conversation is taking place here as well, Jesse Stay didn't get me there too: http://friendfeed.com/scoblei...
- Alexander van Elsas
Kevin: let's say my friend decides he wants to put me in a "technology" or "owned-Barbies-when-he-was-5" list; my only recourse is to block someone I'd otherwise have no problem with because Twitter doesn't give me the ability to remove something from my profile otherwise. As I'm sure you've seen with FriendFeed and Facebook, blocking someone is considered a drastic and hostile action towards a person that isn't the same thing as opting out of a feature. And why aren't public lists opt-in anyway?
- Mark Trapp
Alexander: Are you sure that the ads on the right are directly related to your profile? I think they're more directly related to the viewer's profile than the profile he's viewing, and don't knw that they're related to the profile being viewed at all. And if you're worried about the ads on the page, then this is a problem you're going to experience all over the internet.
- Kevin Fox
Mark: Your arguments would go farther if you steered clear of the absolutes a bit. If this person is your friend enough that you don't want to block them, then presumably they're friend enough for you to ask them to take you off that list. 'Only recourse is to block my friend'? Pah. Also, public lists won't work if they're opt-in. Like Gwyneth Paltrow is going to sit around approving...
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- Kevin Fox
Kevin, that'd be a good middle ground, although I'd imagine if lists were opt-in, they'd function much like how FriendFeed and Facebook groups work now or how WeFollow works: someone can't subscribe me to a group, but if I want to be associated with a group of people, I opt-in by subscribing or joining the group.
- Mark Trapp
It's a difference in viewpoint. I don't see them as groups because I don't see lists as a tool for fostering two-way communication. I see lists like Google Reader bundles. Pre-rolled subscription packs curated by a knowledgeable third-party.
- Kevin Fox
I think Twitter should add a "public list opt-out" feature. It wasn't obvious when lists first came out that people might not want to be on them, but after seeing this, it's impossible to know if people want to be on them or not. It could be a problem for those wanting to opt-out of lists because you can't necessarily DM everyone that puts you on a list (and you don't always want to block them, as Mark said).
- Matt Mastracci
@Kevin. I am fully aware that ads are part of the eco system of the web. But in this particular context (A friend is looking for me on Facebook), I think placement of (sleezy) ads are a bad idea. It seems to reflect on my profile/brand/identity and it cannot be controlled by me. Facebook should be the place where friends connect, not the place where an old friend finds you surrounded by advertisement
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, I'm sorry the ads you get on Facebook are sleazy. I find the ads to be much better quality than those I see elsewhere on the web. Nevertheless, again with the absolutes. It's not like ads preclude Facebook from being the place where friends connect, and a right hand column hardly constitutes being 'surrounded by advertisement.'
- Kevin Fox
They probably know things about me they shouldn't ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Okay, that's funny.
- Kevin Fox
Man that's nuts, Facebook ads are among the shadiest on the respectable web. They're worse than AdSense ads, and AdSense ads are pretty bad.
- Paul Laroquod
Bad luck? I'm looking at a beautiful sunset and all I have with me is a crap iPhone that refuses to capture its beauty
Hutch Carpenter liked this
I really dislike the iPhone camera and it will become an increasingly important factor to look at when selecting a new phone.For me the most important elements are: 1) Call quality and easy of use when calling/SMSing (yes folks I use my phone as a phone). 2) The camera quality (I find myself in need of a good, always around mobile camera 3) Web browsing/ mobile apps
- Alexander van Elsas
While the iPhone scores best on 3) it scores poor on 1) and 2) for me, and they are more importnat to me. I have my hopes set on (An) Droid. How about you?
- Alexander van Elsas
This one from Santorini worked out pretty well: http://friendfeed.com/bhc3...
- Hutch Carpenter
Nice one Hutch :-) I do have some (occasional) success with it, but most of the time it's just a frustrating experience.
- Alexander van Elsas
Just read work from Jonathan Harris, one of my favorite artists. Unlike most things read he got me silent and thinking. http://number27.org/worldbu...
he has done a great job at writing things down that I care and have written about. Makes me realize that writing is an art. I'll post a few quotes although quotes aren't the way to go. Take your time and read it all, slowly!
- Alexander van Elsas
he Internet is causing mass homogenization of human identity, making us all look the same. We use the same tools and social networks, fitting into the same templates, designed by companies to maximize page views and profits (with some notable exceptions like Craigslist). "Most online experiences are made, like fast food, to be cheap, easy, and addictive: appealing to our hunger for...
more...
- Alexander van Elsas
"As we fill in the same boxes, answer the same questions, and express ourselves in the same generic ways, we might think this convergence of identity is a good thing, leading to some kind of global unity or mass empathy. But true empathy comes not from forcing people all to be the same, but from helping people to appreciate their differences."
- Alexander van Elsas
"We cherish our capitols, cathedrals, museums, monuments, and parks, but who will build structures of this stature in the digital world?"
- Alexander van Elsas
Oh crud. Rahsheen and I made Mo's list on Twitter of "suspected cyborgs".
Steven Perez, rowlikeagirl, Michael W. May and 31 other people liked this
Since you also have twins I was sort of suspecting there is actually 4 of you Louis? ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
You think I don't know? Puhleeze. How can a mere human manage children, x^infinity * socnets, blogging and who knows what else seemingly simultaneously *without* sleep? And Rah? Seen that mans multiple talents and abs of steel? Yeah :)
- Mo Kargas
I know you know, Mo. You will be assimilated.
- Louis Gray
Phew, was hoping you'd say that
- Mo Kargas
LOL!
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Ha!
- Micah Wittman
I LOVE MO!
- Admiral Anika
He also has a "bunneh" list with only one entry. Mo, you officially rock, sir!
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
And he has an all-Scoble "Scobleizer-List" with just 2 members, both of course named Scoble. ;)
- Dennis Jernberg
LOL I LOVE the bunneh list.
- Penguin It's Cold Outside
haha
- Shevonne
What the ...?
- Steven Perez
@jesseslinks it is really lame to attack lists like that. I can block any list which would remove it from my own directory.
Kol Tregaskes, michele ficara, Brian Hendrickson and 8 other people liked this
are you sure - what happens when google traverses the list from outside of your social graph - block avoided
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Good to see that blocking the list maker removes you from the list. Should still be able to opt out of lists
- Mark Trapp
Yes, I'm sure. Blocking completely removes you from the list. Mark: you can opt out of lists. Just block the lists people put you on.
- Robert Scoble
FTR I wasn't attacking them. That link comes from Mark Trapp. It's an interesting conversation though. Also cool that you can block a list and take yourself out of it.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, you can't block lists. You can block people who created lists, which by extension, removes you from the list. That doesn't help people who want to opt out of a list but not block the list creator; I point this out in my post about not wanting to be in technology lists for example. Beyond that, the core issue is that Twitter is now allowing other users to modify your profile...
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- Mark Trapp
I also don't understand why it's lame - Mark has some valid points.
- Jesse Stay
FWIW Facebook has this with photo tagging - Twitter should do something similar. If you're "tagged" in a photo or video, you can immediately remove the tag. You can also set privacy preferences as to who can see tagged photos/videos of you (based on list).
- Jesse Stay
That's really all that's required, Jesse: I think it's a simple security/privacy consideration that shouldn't change the functionality of lists. Right now, however, the functionality makes a privacy assumption that doesn't exist anywhere else in Twitter, and people ought to know that or Twitter needs to fix it.
- Mark Trapp
And thus begins privacy controls in Twitter, and thus starts Twitter's journey towards competing with Facebook. :-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse - have the battle with privacy is not the automated control you put in but the Human Element. If you are that concerned about privacy control it yourself
- Rob Cairns
Rob, I'm not sure where I said anything about automation
- Jesse Stay
Mark, I'm not really seeing your argument here, it sounds a bit paranoid. If someone puts you on a benign list you don't want to be on for some reason, just contact the list creator. If they fail to comply with a polite request, they are NOT your friend and you just block them. Why would you feel the need to still follow them? If someone puts you on a malevolent list of some sort...
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- Alex Schleber
BTW, I just scoured Scoble's first few hundred "listed" entries (of his current 1400+), and the most egregious terms I could find were "echochamber", "tech freak", and "scobleitis" :) Hardly slander/libel material. And you know someone out there isn't big on Robert, but I doubt they will bother to add him to a negative list. They just blocked him early on...
- Alex Schleber
Mark: have you even tried this? Steve Gillmor and I have. If I block a list's owner it removes me from all of his lists.
- Robert Scoble
which I have. he's so blocked. Check Tech Pundits. I'm not there.
- Steve Gillmor
Robert: you said repeatedly you can block a list. I said you can't: you can only block a list creator, which subsequently blocks any list they created. Now you're saying the exact same thing I said. There's a difference I don't think you're picking up on: I want to be able to remove myself from lists, not block people. If I have a friend who's decided to categorize me as "technology" and I don't want to be in that list, my only recourse is to block my friend. That's not ideal at all.
- Mark Trapp
On top of the fact that blocking is reactive, not preventative. I have to realize I'm in a list before I can take action to remove myself from it. I don't want to be part of any technology related lists, yet I have to wait until someone tags me as such before I can block that person to remove myself from it. Why aren't lists opt-in, especially considering the list memberships show up on my profile? I have no control over a major part of my profile, which is unlike any other part of Twitter.
- Mark Trapp
At the very least, list shouldn't be part of my profile (since I can't control, directly, what lists I'm apart of) and I should be able to remove myself from a list without blocking the list creator. I don't see how that's unreasonable or the argument against having those two pieces of functionality.
- Mark Trapp
One of the bigger problems I have with sites like Facebook is that I have no control over how others see my public profile (right now you'll prob see 16+ yr old girls asking you to contact them, surrounding my profile. I'm happily married, have 4 kids. Mark has a point. It's hard to maintain a personal brand on the web, and others that can classify you (wrongly) won't help. Then again Twitter is 90% bots so I don't think many will notice
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: actually Twitter isn't 90% bots. Just 50%. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Alexander, have you tried privacy settings in Facebook? That's why you use Facebook - it gives you that control. (I thought this conversation was about Twitter) (confused)
- Jesse Stay
Robert, I'm suspecting you are a bot too. Can we do a turing test right now to see :-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Jesse, I tried. But I couldn't find that switch that protected me from Facebook themselves. So I gave up.
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: I'm a bot with awesome voice recognition. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Alexander - protected you from Facebook themselves? It's called your own blog. :-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, I just looked you up on Facebook. I saw a "buy this cheap house now, color your picture into a cartoon, and a dental advertisement. What does that say about you? Are you a cheap cartoon real-estate dentist, or are you a cool web 2.0 dude?
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander where are you seeing this? Are you looking at http://facebook.com/stay?
- Jesse Stay
search: Jesse stay
- Alexander van Elsas
The thing is Jesse, you can set settings any way you want, but Facebook has an advertisement based model. So they'll display ads, usually incredibly badly targeted, next to your profile. And there is nothing that prevents them from doing that. If I use Facebook to connect to people I care about, then I do not want to be associated with badly targeted ads (or any ads for that matter)
- Alexander van Elsas
BTW, it took me 2 screen refreshes to see a beautiful, but way too young girl next to your profile ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, not sure that has anything to do with Twitter or Facebook then - the only place you're completely safe from that stuff is your own blog. BTW, click on the profile - of course you're going to see non-related info next to my name in a search.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, don't agree. Facebook is for connecting with friends (or business partners). Important in your social interactions. So if Facebook serves badly targeted ads next to your profile it sucks. Especially on the search page, which is the most likely place people that are looking for you will find you! Their business model makes this happen. And their privacy settings only relate to your privacy towards other users, not towards Facebook. They own it all. Sorry for the hijack, will stop now.
- Alexander van Elsas
Still not sure what you're arguing Alexander. I've never had trouble finding close friends and family. Your results will get much more accurate when those friends are already friends of other friends of yours, which is usually the case of how I find people on Facebook. If not, just Google them - those profiles are indexable for at least their names.
- Jesse Stay
Your profile is the first that comes up here: http://www.google.com/search...
- Jesse Stay
Alexander, I agree. It seems to me that there are targeted ads (some I find really offensive as if they think they know what I want) but then there are also ads that are random: they are going to always go for the wide net with those.
- Melanie Reed
Jesse, my point is that if someone searches and finds me on Facebook, Facebook will display ads on the search result page next to my profile. Those ads tend to be badly targeted. Let's say an old friend, business partner, or recruiter is looking for me and sees those ads of 16 yr old girls looking for some action next to my profile, what does that make them think about me?
- Alexander van Elsas
That there are badly-placed ads just like everywhere else on Facebook next to your profile. What does this have to do with removing yourself from Twitter lists?
- Jesse Stay
I mentioned it because I think I understand why Mark Trapp is questioning the way lists have been implemented on Twitter. It is a similar issue I think. If they incorrectly categorize or misplace me ('real-estate-heroes'), it affects how others will perceive me. (Hope I'm right Mark :-) )
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander I don't see the relation in that case - you can't remove yourself from Twitter search either so long as you have a Twitter account, and you can bet that will have ads in the very near future. What about Google, that places ads around your content? That's just the price for being on the web. What Mark's talking about is the actions of other users - how can I remove myself from a list some other user has placed me in? What you're talking about is a much bigger problem of the web as a whole.
- Jesse Stay
Not looking to be right or wrong, just mentioned it. But hey, I haven't seen this much discussion action on FF in a while :-)
- Alexander van Elsas
I'm talking about both things: someone else shouldn't be able to dictate, by implication or otherwise, how I'm perceived on my own profile. People can @ me, or say, on their own Twitter stream, that I'm a dick, or a puppy killer, or whatever, but that's attached to them, not to my profile. The way Twitter lists are implemented, they're attached to me rather than the person making the...
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- Mark Trapp
Mark I don't see how that has anything to do with search though (re: both things)
- Jesse Stay
Alex said I was questioning the way lists have been implemented on Twitter, that if someone incorrectly categorizes me, it affects how people perceive me. You said that I'm talking about the actions of other users, and how can I remove myself from a list a user has placed me in. Both things are under the domain of my argument. I don't really care about search, unless, as Alex is suggesting, things I didn't consent to are being attached to my profile in a search result.
- Mark Trapp
Mark, the latter is just a part of being on the web. Don't open an internet browser if you don't want that. You can't control that on Twitter or Facebook or Google or even your own site (assuming you allow ads) for that matter. It's crazy to think anyone can control how they show up in a search result in relation to ads.
- Jesse Stay
Mark: you are wrong and the era of control is over (Steve Gillmor tells me that every show). Personally this is freaking awesome that you can see how people perceive me. And I can see it too. If I don't like how people are perceiving me, I can block them or I can contact them and try to change how they perceive me. But so far I've been looking at thousands of people and this system is REMARKABLY accurate.
- Robert Scoble
Jesse: which is why I don't care about search, and it isn't part of my argument. Alex is making a stronger connection between the ads served and my profile, and if he's correct, then there's a problem. But I'm fine with him, not me, tackling that problem: I think the Twitter list implementation is problematic even without considering search implications.
- Mark Trapp
Hey Robert, Just looked you up on Facebook and I saw a pretty sleezy looking girl next to you. Facebook decided to do that. You may not mind, but I think it sucks within the context of Facebook and what it should stand for (connecting friends). Facebook could easily decide not to present that advertisement, but they don't. And with that, they affect our personal brand. Jesse. Don't...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Robert: there's nothing particular about the Twitter list implementation that ensures that they are being used for actual perception, and not for other uses (I outlined two: spam and maliciousness). Very basic functionality could be added to lists to mitigate those, non legitimate, uses without changing the core functionality. For instance, your use case you just described, being able to see how others perceive you, does not require lists being public or attached to your profile.
- Mark Trapp
Alexander your argument is ridiculous and I'm just going to leave it at that - this is getting repetitive. I see Robert's side of this on the lists - personally, it doesn't matter to me too much. In the end I could just report it to Twitter, but I always have the option of blocking. IMO if the individual isn't willing to remove me from one of their lists after respectfully asking them they deserve to be blocked. They're jerks anyway.
- Jesse Stay
Mark: actually, having them attached to your profile and public means I can learn about how others view YOU. This is ABSOLUTELY HUGE in networking. But, yes, I can see why it would freak you out. You better be nice to all of us or else we'll put you on the nasty list. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Jesse, 'your argument is ridiculous' is a good way of shutting me up. I won't say another word
- Alexander van Elsas
@Robert: You said at #140Conf that Lists aren't spammable. I say they will be. What if scumbag spammers create multiple accounts and add all their usernames to various lists? So, your search for "pilots" could be yield a bunch of phony lists with fake pilots. You could eventually go through the trouble of blocking all those users to kill the lists, but a big waste of time for you. Others could be fooled.
- Bryan Person
@vanelsas you are forgetting that Facebook is targeting those ads AT YOU. They primarily go by YOUR demographics and profile keywords from what I understand. Either way, people understand that ads are not the responsibility of the profile owner (most of them get completely ignored anyway). I really don't get your and Mark's fears about this stuff. Seems overblown. So what if someone says something you don't like about or near you? It's called life...deal with it.
- Alex Schleber
@alex I am not asking you or anyone else to agree with me. Relax.
- Alexander van Elsas
from iPhone
Like anything, lists need to be taken with grain of salt. Most will be ego boosts and people trying to chum one another. I don't think lists will be a "game changer". Too subjective.
- Kasey Skala
This is why lists is in beta, to work out the kinks and I'm sure if it becomes an issue, Twitter will add the ability to opt-out. Perhaps instead of opting out it would be better to use an opt-in format. If someone adds my name to a list I get a DM from Twitter asking me if I want to be on it and if I don't reply in the affirmative I'm not added to the list.
- Hugh Briss
Having to block a person to come off their list is like having to report a newsletter as spam rather than simply unsubscribing. Not to mention it raises flags with Twitter's abuse people when someone is blocked by several people.
- Rooker
To be free we need to break free of web 2.0 thinking - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
Mark Trapp and Alexander van Elsas liked this
"It’s hard to understand why people tend to feel that their online lives somehow are disconnected from real-life....We need to get out of this confining web 2.0 definition and build new business models. Business models that are not based upon network effects and hogging user data. We need user-centric business models. And with that we will see user-centric services appear. Services that have a clear and transparent business model. Services that generate revenue by delivering user value. Services that do not depend on customer lock-in but on user freedom. Services in which the balance of power has shifted from the company that exploits to the user that receives value. A new balancing act."
- John E. Bredehoft
Personally, I try to always remain aware that anything that I share is out there forever for view by everyone. Yet, even though I try to be cautious, I'm sure that an intelligent data miner can establish the links between my various data points and find out things about me that I never intended to share.
- John E. Bredehoft
Read this post and then think again. So much can be derived from our actions. Scary stuff ;-) http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
- Alexander van Elsas
Meta: Within Google Reader, we are having a discussion about @scobleizer bailing on Google Reader. Get connected here: http://www.google.com/reader...
ffcode, Andrew Terry, anna sauce and 5 other people liked this
Assuming you are following my items, and you are, you know where to see them inside Reader. :)
- Louis Gray
They don't display on the link blog directly.
- Louis Gray
commented! :)
- Jenna Bilotta
It's too hard to comment in Google Reader - can we discuss here? :-)
- Jesse Stay
/blocks Jesse (again)
- Louis Gray
Louis, that wouldn't be the first time :-)
- Jesse Stay
Funny thing is I think it was Scoble that got me into Google Reader.
- Jesse Stay
He has an attention span that's shorter than my 4 year olds... ;)
- Eoghann Irving
Jesse and Eoghann: again, I'm about what will be, not what is or what was. :-) And Google Reader is NOT going to be "what will be." IT TAKES MORE THAN A MINUTE TO START UP. I wish I could see these comments, but I can't even wait anymore for the damn page to startup. Sigh.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I hear you - I keep it open, so that's just not a problem for me. Right now it's all there is though so it's the tool I have. I'd love for more tools that meet my needs that Google Reader meets to come about so I can try "what will be". Right now there's just nothing that meets my needs for the future. Twitter's not it.
- Jesse Stay
What is a minute in a lifetime dude. Tons of other things you can do in the meantime. Relax. Grab some coffee, have fun with the kids. GR isn't mean for fast consumption anyways. It's for slow reading ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Alex: sorry, I don't put up with sites that take 25.7 seconds to startup (my latest attempt). I have better things to do. And, anyway, I have far better information sources coming at me in Twitter now. Did you miss my list of hundreds of venture capitalists? Try to find that on Google Reader.
- Robert Scoble
Robert. I'm glad you are putting in the effort to make those lists, saves me a lot of time :-) Regarding slow loading times. I use GR only if I want to take the time to really read something. 25 sec loading time is lame, but I don't see anything comping close to getting me a good overview of posts I really want to read. To me it is comforting that it's all still there, even if I haven't looked at it in a few days/weeks. Try that with Twitter ;-) Different services, different purposes
- Alexander van Elsas
Robert, you do have a point with the lists (which again, you can do on both Twitter and Facebook), but I still can't read the content, right there. It's still not a full "newspaper" experience where I can get all the news in one place. An extra click is too much.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: life isn't perfect. On Facebook I can't have more than 5,000 friends either. Sigh.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, notice where I posted that though - it was on a Facebook fan Page, which is unlimited. I posted it to your Fan Page as well, also unlimited. Your personal profile and fan Page are apples and oranges - Twitter would be more comparable to the fan Page.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: I really hate the Facebook Page thing. I can't figure it out and the separation between my private page and my public page have always bugged me.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, the way I compare it: Facebook Page==Twitter/FriendFeed. Facebook Profile==TweetDeck/Seesmic, along with your private friends and family
- Jesse Stay
Seriously though - spend some time with it and you'll start to see some serious benefit. The people I'm talking to, and through my own experience, Facebook Pages tend to bring much higher engagement rates than Twitter.
- Jesse Stay
I'll start doing some screen casts soon comparing different experiences on FriendFeed to how you would do it in Facebook, and share some cool tips and secrets. It's a very rich environment with a learning curve, but then again that's what FriendFeed was as well.
- Jesse Stay
To be free we need to break free of web 2.0 thinking - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
Ted Louie, Itachi, John E. Bredehoft and LogEx liked this
Great post, Alexander. Well said: "the biggest tragedy of the success of web 2.0 is its failure to put the user in control of his identity and privacy"
- LogEx
Thanks :-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Privacy, Our Expectations Need to Change - http://foolswisdom.com/privacy...
Itachi, Lora Lufark, ThirdEye and 6 other people liked this
"I’ve written on similar topics before: http://factoryjoe.com/blog... http://factoryjoe.com/blog... http://factoryjoe.com/blog..."
- Chris Messina
The capability for openness is paramount, but openness needs to be a choice, and varying kinds and degrees of privacy need to remain choices as well. Technology shouldn't dictate cultural norms, it should support them even as they evolve. The younger demographic is not unconcerned about privacy as previously thought (http://www.danah.org/papers... is a good read), and adults have a variety of needs and thoughts on it too. It's not at all black and white.
- LogEx
I'd agree with that sentiment. At the same time, holding on to the old just because it's familiar doesn't make any more sense than technology dictating our behavior. None the less, tradition and the design of technology artifacts always play a role in determining our behavior — and in this case, I think embracing radical transparency now is a way to prepare for what I hope will be a more subtle future.
- Chris Messina
What do you mean by "radical transparency", Chris?
- directeur
The biggest problems (among many) that I see with radical transparency is that individual citizens (whose rights should be most important) are at a severe disadvantage. Governments and corporations have much more information and power than individuals do. The US is at the freer end of the scale, despite inherent structural issues and events of the past decade. But even if we assume that...
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- LogEx
Schneier has commented numerous times on too much transparenyc (e.g., http://www.wired.com/politic...). These are very real risks and indicate that we should proceed cautiously. At the very least, the desires of those who want to be transparent shouldn't obviate the rights and choices for those who don't want that.
- LogEx
the old adage "data is king", why do you think Google is aiming at organising an Exabyte of data all about us? Personally, I don't think people have a right to see every aspect of my life. Certainly entities who hold a certain degree of power over a populace should be a lot more transparent than they currently are (government), but for the individual, the option for privacy is an...
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- alphaxion
While I am sympathetic with the views expressed here, I don't see any solutions that would actually work in the marketplace. People are happy to hand over whatever data is requested of them to Facebook, Google, Apple, and whoever else asks in order to get better service or connect with their friends, family, and contacts. While "radical privacy" might be a fun topic to debate, the reality is that a new world is upon us, and it requires taking a different approach entirely.
- Chris Messina
Or, perhaps phrased differently, what advise would you give a 16-year-old (boy or girl) who is just now thinking of creating a public Facebook page for themself?
- Chris Messina
Chris, the first thing that's wrong with FB is requiring people's real names in the 1st place. I know you're against nicknames and imvho you're wrong. Do you think that people like _why are trolls? Or don't you see millions of jerks proudly displaying their real names, phone numbers and adresses? Personal information aren't a guarantee of a civilised behavior. Moreover RFCs are here for a reason. See RFC8155 section 4.1.2 (last point) http://www.ietf.org/rfc...
- directeur
@ChrisMessina "what advise would you give a 16-year-old (boy or girl)"? Just one but very good one - don't use FB, just do not! LOL
- Lora Lufark
@directeur: I think you don't give me enough credit for my perspective! Pseudonyms and anonymity are important in any social system — and I support their appropriate use. Assholes operate under both real and fake names. That said, my argument all along has been to provide MORE options in the marketplace, including using your real identity if you choose, AND consolidating your identity...
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- Chris Messina
Chris, I wouldn't say "People are happy to hand over whatever data is requested of them" - I'd say they often obliviously or grudgingly hand over data, not realizing how extensive their dossier is or how it may get used in the future. We're not talking about radical privacy either, that describes a hermit with little human contact who gets what he needs with nothing but cash and barter...
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- LogEx
I think the topics that you're raising are useful and worthwhile — and definitely help to illuminate the space about which we're discussing. As an interaction designer, though, my challenge is to surface the kind of controls you're advocating for in a way that doesn't completely bog down the user experience and inhibit one's ability to deal with the cognitive load of confronting such...
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- Chris Messina
All social media ultimately will need well developed private and public channels. It's not an either or situation. Financial and medical data already demand privacy. As social media integrates into corporate workgroups, other kinds of privacy will be required. Driving a car is a difficult user experience, but if the gain is worth the pain, the user will engage.
- Cliff Gerrish
Perhaps... but it's hard to imagine how we'll get from where we are to that situation — when there are so many benefits to increased openness and transparency. It's not that I disagree — but having worked on standards, it seems a significant challenge to get the entire industry to move forward, in concert.
- Chris Messina
wow you talk about social media state today, as if it were eternal. my god, this is an illusion... when people will have the tools readied to talk and exchange between them, on secure links or protocols, and not having the necessity to engage conversation in a centralized data cloud, your actual discussion on transparency will be totally pointless... good bye data, good bye Web number...
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- Thierry Lhôte
For instance, data server logs concerning users on Facebook are for no technical use, so why Facebook do not give their control to the users, it is technologically possible... this is not a question of technology, it is a question of greed, man. So when you are saying in one of your articles that transparency is inevitable because of technology, please, do not try to get me wrong, do...
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- Thierry Lhôte
I have no idea what you just said. Could you sum up your argument in, say, a single sentence just so that I don't get you wrong?
- Chris Messina
I believe there are 2 distinct yet related issues. 1. User data gets commercially exploited, often without the user realizing this. 2. The user tends to have only 1 choice, join in and get exposed, or stay out. The business model fuels public sharing and commercial exploitation of data. There is no reason why this couldn't be changed both with technology and business models. I Agree...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Yes Alexander made the point, contrary to what you are saying in one of your 3 articles linked above, we are not made transparent by the happening of technology. But because of political and business decisions, reflected in technology. There is absolutely no need, technologically, to be exposed to transparency, like we are now. Except if people like you continue to write that it is a...
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- Thierry Lhôte
And secondly, this type of centralized social media we have now, is perhaps not here for long. The day we will have applications that permits to talk and exchange without passing by a centralized point, then, all this social media phenomenon, we know now, will be busted. And happily, guys like Chris Messina will stop to tell tired and wrong thoughts from the "necessity of transparency".
- Thierry Lhôte
Thierry, you're a bit tough on Chris, and I personally don't think that it's fair. He has been/is working on making the web better for the user. While I don't like it, I do agree with Chris in thinking it is very difficult right now to redo privacy in a way that would put the user in control. There are 330M people on Facebook and many more in other services that basically say that they...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, please do not tell people that it is technologically difficult to erase server logs concerning users, tell them he truth, not poitical or business hypocracy. Secondly, you say there are 330 M of users on Facebook, but how many of them are really users, are really active ? so you are vehiculating figures impossible to verify, but you continue to expose them. Thirdly, everyone...
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- Thierry Lhôte
We are taking about different things. The difficulty isn't a technical difficulty. Go to Mark Zuckerberg and ask him to completely throw out any existing business model he has and implement privacy (including the switch that protects the user from Facebook). He would never do that. The difficulty is the Facebook business model and the ecology behind it. Failing to acknowledge this, or...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Ha here we agree completely Alexander ! it is a question of business decision, not technology. But if you read Chris articles linked above, we do not get that impression, thanx for the clarification.
- Thierry Lhôte
There is an interesting series on NPR right now that discusses this very topic. I'd recommend taking a listen: Part 1: http://www.npr.org/templat... Part 2: http://www.npr.org/templat... Parts 3 and 4 will be out tomorrow and Friday I think.
- Chris Messina
My turn : Two important scenes - first here the problem the exploitation of data mining by greed and the risk of convergence of interests between politics and business : http://www.youtube.com/watch... - second, why Web 2.0 or social Web movement continue to avoid conversation on the Freedom principle http://www.linux.com/archive... and for the video of the event...
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- Thierry Lhôte
I take it you're a big fan of Eben Moglen?
- Chris Messina
Nope, I am not a big fan, but the FSF here has a perfectly valid point. If you want another source explaining this phenomenon, who is not Moglen nor Stallman or other guys, Wu or Lessig or Schneier etc. just an outside point of view, check this NYT article : http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...
- Thierry Lhôte
An excerpt of this article : Peter Swire, an Ohio State law professor who served on the Obama transition team, offered one reason it might be difficult for the administration to find its voice on privacy. There is a split, he told the conference, between the typical view of privacy among technology experts and the emerging view of people brought up in the social networking, Web 2.0 world. “The Web 2.0 movement is opposed to the privacy movement,” he said.
- Thierry Lhôte
you can also check Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=932
- Thierry Lhôte
Thanks for these links. I'm curious — I wonder who would consider themselves in the "Web 2.0 movement" (besides, of course, Tim O'Reilly).
- Chris Messina
I do, Chris. More or less.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
But why does the "web 2.0 movement" have to be inherently anti-privacy? I understand the profit motive, but leave enough real hooks for those who want more control of their data... or the government will certainly step in and do it for you. We're talking about basic legally-protected rights... Radical Transparency is dead, get over it.
- LogEx
I wrote a blog post about it today that touches that subject. It's not as much web 2.0 as the most commonly used business model that makes privacy hard to implement/defend right now: http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
- Alexander van Elsas
Why Google will win: entrapment in the iPhone is a failing long-term strategy - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
siva s, Liviu Barbat, Cristo and 4 other people liked this
There's no entrapment here. The analogy is completely wrong. The iPhone actually set the standard for connectivity to the Network. This 'silo' argument belongs in a museum.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff, what do you mean? The iPhone sets a standard but you can't call it open, can you? Apple controls everything, from what apps get into the store to what Mobile carrier I "get to choose".
- Alexander van Elsas
Are there people you can't call? Web sites you can't visit? Music you can't listen to? How many apps are in the appstore? How many are added every day? Are their WebApps you can't develop and use? The issue of the telecom cartel is entirely separate-- Apple completely changed the dynamics there. Without their pressure there would be no Google phone.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff -- there are websites you can't visit -- ones that use Flash would be at the top of the list. There are apps that I can't develop and use -- why are you limiting your argument to "Webapps"? But even there webapps that use Flash are eliminated.
- Brian Sullivan
Cliff, Apple dictates the market, the technology and the carriers. Yes, they brought a nice product, but to me it doesn't weigh up to the ability to have choice.
- Alexander van Elsas
from iPhone
I've ensured I have choice btw, in case you wonder why I use an iPhone.
- Alexander van Elsas
from iPhone
I have issues even calling people because I'm forced to use AT&T.
- Jesse Stay
Why not just unlock the iPhone? There's no denying the iPhone and the App store have advanced the state of the mobile market even if there are a few things to dislike about the pipeline. If they spur Nokia et al to outdo them with Android stuff then consumers win.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
As long as the golden cage is shiny enough we'll stay inside.
- Todd Hoff
Daniel, the fact that you have to hack it, and constantly fight Apple in doing so does not make the iPhone open either. An unlocked iPhone is not an Apple product. If Apple were to encourage it that would be a different story.
- Jesse Stay
I certainly don't expect many people to unlock, and I'd love to see something that was just like the iPhone but fully open. I'm pretty happy with what I've got now though. Maybe if I could get the same thing but pay $20/mo. for the service rather than what I'm paying now...
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Flash? Is that really an issue? What is it that you feel that you can't choose? You can certainly choose a phone other than the iPhone. There are a lot of open source computing choices that are unusable. You have choice, but you don't choose it. Open largely means poor user experience.
- Cliff Gerrish
I'd love to see Flash on the iPhone... hello to every video service other than YouTube!
- Daniel J. Pritchett
I'd love to see video independent of Flash. What exactly is open about that?
- Cliff Gerrish
This all assumes we will be using phones in the way we do for long enough for time to level it out. Apple seems to be a catergory leader then move on.
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
"Open largely means poor user experience." Uhhh yeah, we call that the web.
- Matt Terenzio
Matt, which "open" phone do you recommend?
- Cliff Gerrish
Wrong. :)
- Louis Gray
Cliff, it has a standard browser it's cool in my book. Though it is a little odd that audio gets redistributed (does it?). They do want to keep you in iTunes.
- Matt Terenzio
Louis, no, you're wrong :)
- Jesse Stay
The iPhone will "fail" if Apple sticks with AT&T too much longer.
- Spencer
Matt, I think you can directly access MP3s in the browser. But the issue is that in the long term, Apple is 5 steps ahead. The rest of the industry, including the beloved "open" phones are struggling to replicate year 1 of the iPhone.
- Cliff Gerrish
I had a Sidekick II back in the day that I loved, but it was a closed system. Apps had to come from their store and they didn't have what needed. I switched to a Windows device because I could put whatever I wanted on it. A few years down the line and we're still dealing with the same crap.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Yeah, the AppStore only has about 91,000 apps with more than 2 Billion downloaded. Pretty tough to find what you need.
- Cliff Gerrish
I think the "openness" issue only matters to a small subset of potential users, at least as it pertains to functionality. Do you honestly think that with 85,000 apps on the device already regular users aren't able to do mostly what they want with the phone? Apple will eventually rectify the iPhone's one meaningful liability - AT&T- by launching devices for other networks. It's not a question of if, but when.
- Kevin Pedraja
Or what Cliff said.
- Kevin Pedraja
Looks like there are about 22,000 active publishers of iPhone apps - a closed, elite group: http://148apps.biz/app-sto...
- Cliff Gerrish
22,000 active publishers is an elite group? How many does WinMo have?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Sorry, I forgot to append the obligatory emoticon ;-)
- Cliff Gerrish
Daniel, I believe Cliff was being sarcastic. Time to recalibrate your sarcaso-meter
- Kevin Pedraja
>:|
- Daniel J. Pritchett
I don't know about others, but in the last several days I'm seeing more comments (less likes, but more comments) than before on FriendFeed. Pretty cool to see the arguments here!
- Jesse Stay
No doubt, it's because friendfeed is dead. Or the Walrus is Paul...
- Cliff Gerrish
Also, the openness of Android is subject to the whims of the carriers. If you honestly think Verizon will allow any and all apps to be used over their network, let me just refer you to the entirety of their history up this point. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.
- Kevin Pedraja
My point is a lot simpler. Apple makes a great product. There is NO reason except commercial why they shouldn't unleash it to all users across all mobile carriers. And they have a dodgy reputation when it comes to approval of apps to their store. Apple should focus on the product only AND let everyone participate, including users that do not want AT&T. No matter how you look at it. They...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Why Google will win: entrapment in the iPhone is a failing long-term strategy - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
Alexander van Elsas liked this
Heftige maar interessante dicussie! Ik zelf ben het er niet mee eens omdat: 1. Apple weet wanneer het succes afneemt en kan stoppen op het hoogtepunt om iets revolutionairs te maken wat het kunstje van de iPhone herhaalt. 2. De iPhone is nu zo'n voorsprong dat voor mij keuze niet nodig is, persoonlijk natuurlijk!
- Coen Meerbeek
Er komt altijd wel weer iets beters/mooiers/ De vraag is, vertrouw jij op 1 bedrijf die alle innovatie alleen zal moeten orchestreren, of vertrouw je op de ecologie die Android opbouwt ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Re: Paying To Pitch - http://www.avc.com/a_vc...
"I'm going to defend Fred here, not that he needs it ;-) I've had the chance to sit down with him before, and this happened because he isn't sitting in some ivory tower. I've found Fred to be accessible and willing to take the time to hear me out. As an entrepreneur you will always need a good pitch to get attention from others (including investors). If you have a good story people will open up for you."
- Alexander van Elsas
now this is an interesting intersection
Darren Heydon, Chris, Taskerrific Guy and Alexander van Elsas liked this
Is that real?
- Glenn Slaven
Or Steven turns out to be an extremely good photoshopper ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
ya right LOL I couldn't 'shop my way out of a brown paper bag
- Steven Hodson
If you meet me tomorrow at Blog World this is one list you will get on: http://twitter.com/login (People I've met!)
you must have been very lonely so far, the list is empty according to twitter ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Tesla Motors - Image Library - http://www.teslamotors.com/media...
Arnaud Fischer, Glenn Slaven and Darren Heydon liked this
When I go electric...I want this
- Mo Kargas
from Bookmarklet
You are electric. Those lasers don't run on steam, punk!
- Micah Wittman
No V8 sound though :(
- Mo Kargas
you could burn a cd of a Ferrari 458...
- Bren -- feeling merry
Wouldn't be the same
- Mo Kargas
But I'm sure I'd get over sentiment pretty quick with that beauty
- Mo Kargas
I would have suggested a Lamborghini, but you know, they don't make a V8...teehee
- Bren -- feeling merry
And you need to be a midget to fit. We tried it once, and if you are taller than 6-6.1 you will have a hard time getting in or out ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
You must have tried the prototype model, since the production model doesn't drop til 2011
- Mo Kargas
Re: louisgray.com: The Time is Right to Kill Google (If They Don’t Kill Themselves First) - http://blog.louisgray.com/2009...
ffcode liked this
"Matt, a bit of a pretentious title for a post about Google not taking care of user needs. They, like any big company are making mistakes. And these need to be corrected. But imo killing a company as big as Google will take a bit more than another company doing a few things better. We often tend to forget that Google has become way more than search or advertisement. If you are going to compete with Google you better remember they have unprecedented nr of servers and data centers. They are one of the largest infrastructure companies in the world and have fiber all over the world. The sheer investments needed to overcome that alone are incredible. That doesn't mean they are untouchable. Just like anything else that comes up it will come down t some point. But it may be a good idea not to have an ambition to kill Google, but rather have an ambition to do something entirely new exceptionally well. After all, that is what they did too."
- Alexander van Elsas
@vanelsas just commented on your blog, Wave is still misinterpreted since it has so much eye-candy, hardly any attention on the protocol
Alexander van Elsas liked this
It's hard for folks to look past the initial demo. That isn't what makes Wave important imo
- Alexander van Elsas
Macro Linz » The Point You’re Missing About Google Wave - http://macrolinz.com/macroli...
LogEx, Daniel Rowley, Tapio Kulmala and 8 other people liked this
"Now that I’ve had a chance to play with Google Wave a bit and to hear what other people have to say about it I’ve noticed that a lot of people are disappointed and it seems to me that they have missed the point... People aren’t getting it right now because they’re expecting the beta to all be about polishing the User Experience. But it’s not about polishing: it’s about defining."
- Fa La La La Lindsay
from Bookmarklet
I just pressed the publish button on my blog when I saw this come by. Good post, and very similar to my view on Wave ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Yeah, just read yours, Alexander. We seem to be on the same wavelength (I couldn't resist the pun... I think that means it's time for bed!).
- Fa La La La Lindsay
LOL, a wave joke ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
yeah, a bad one too! ;)
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Nicely written, Lindsay.
- Anne Bouey
Thanks, Anne!
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Really really loved this article, Lindsay! I was rather gobsmacked by all of the Wave haters last week too. You did a great job of outlining the reasons folks should still be excited. Architecture is important too! I shared this on FF and Twitter btw
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Thanks, Daniel! Glad you enjoyed it.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Mark 'Rizzn' Hopkins:Disclosure: I own a Linksys router. Linksys is owned by Cisco. Disclosure: I once paid some money to Cisco for a certification. Disclosure: Cisco once ran ads on Rizzn.com. Disclosure: I own an HP printer. - http://siliconangle.net/ver2...
sam liked this
HA!
- michael sean wright
Finally! all the dirt from under the carpet. Keep it going dude ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
They want disclosure, they're gonna get it.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Any comment on who actually did your haircut?
- Alexander van Elsas
Crap. I shoulda thought of that one. Yeah - my wife generally cuts my hair. And it's free. Guess I hafta disclose that every time my avatar pops up? (thanks for saving me from THAT $11k fine).
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
On brand consistency and BHAGs - http://factoryjoe.com/blog...
Alexander van Elsas and scott anderson liked this
Fully agree, wrote a very similar post earlier. too much focus on the current demo. Instead we should look at the way the technology will change the way we communicate. And it will be open-source, federated and not destiny based. It has the potential to become a new communication layer across services.
- Alexander van Elsas
Oh I see lots of people like @pegobry disagree with me on Wave. That is cool. I see some use for it too but the amount of hype is just 2mch
Silver Hage, Ryan - @magicofpi and Roberto Bonini liked this
It's the potential that's powerful. It's not ready to replace your e-mail yet though. Developers are drooling because of how flexible it is. I know I am.
- Jesse Stay
I think it is hype. Especially seeing that some of us haven't had an invite yet :(
- Pete Gilbert
Wrote a post in response Robert. Don't think it is that important to focus on the current demo. Think bigger, it can add a new com layer to the web, it will be open (source), federated, and therefore not bound by a destiny. It has huge potential to change the way we communicate online. http://wp.me/p75c8-be
- Alexander van Elsas
Two falses do not make a right - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
LogEx liked this
Realizes that "Two falses" should probably have been "Two wrongs" :-(
- Alexander van Elsas
Two falses don't make a true? Depends on whether you "and" or "nand" them. :)
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Can you tell English is not my native language ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Who was wearing two falses?
- WorldofHiglet
If You Use The Internet, You Have No Privacy (and other Epiphanies) - http://siliconangle.net/ver2...
what a ridiculous reasoning. Just responded in a post: http://wp.me/p75c8-b7
- Alexander van Elsas
Mark, any idea what happened to the original post ? It seems to have magically disappeared?
- Alexander van Elsas
Thank you Alexander. Privacy is not a boolean. Great quote too: "where is the privacy switch that protects us from Facebook itself?"
- LogEx
LogEx, thanks, it was a really weird post. Don't understand why it was removed though?
- Alexander van Elsas
It was meant to be a scheduled post for this morning. It should be back up now.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
@Mark, I understand your comment. But the fact that people behave in a certain way doesn’t put all the responsibility there. I’m missing nuance. People do stupid things on the web (often naive). But that doesn’t give anyone else the right to misuse that naiveness. Two wrongs (should have written that ;-) ) don’t make the end result right.
- Alexander van Elsas
I hear ya. I didn't write the post, but if I did, I think I may have re-iterated that user stupidity doesn't excuse the unethical behavior of the advertiser, but the fact remains that it's not only allowed but encouraged by the FB ToS (remember project beacon?), something that much hay has been made about online. Someone concerned about their privacy could have found that out.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
@Mark, sorry, should have been clear it wasn't your post ;-) I agree. People to stupid things, often naive. Privacy is a mess on the web
- Alexander van Elsas
No worries. :) Hazards of editing a group blog.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
A User-Centric Web needs brand agnostic service providers - http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
Alexander van Elsas liked this
"You might Johannes Ernst's thoughts on why identity providers haven't come up with a successful business model yet:http://netmesh.info/jernst..."
- Chris Messina
His post explains very well why this is so hard to accomplish. The underlying problem is simply that most users either don't care or aren't willing to pay for the value received. It can change, but only wit a strong user community that adopts, innovates and spreads the word.
- Alexander van Elsas
The new billion-dollar opportunity: real-time-web curation - http://scobleizer.posterous.com/the-new...
Kartik Agaram, Daniel Rowley, Kol Tregaskes and 21 other people liked this
Posted via web from scobleizer's posterous
- Robert Scoble
from Posterous
I wonder if anyone is working on a good curation system for the real time web. So far I haven't seen one that puts it all together.
- Robert Scoble
I don't quite get it... Does a curation system create a topic and then you are able to drag in bits and pieces from other sources?
- Nicholas Orr
Congratulations on your son, Robert! Is it true he is RSS? Just to clarify, are you saying that this is a service and a client/reader that allows all your tweets, photos, posts, and all the comments from all of those show up in one place?
- Susie Wee
This sounds a bit like Gist to me. Only problem, is that Gist is complete brain overload and as it offers so much it kind of becomes useless. Not to say that it won't get better or someone else won't do it better.
- redeye
redeye: nope, Gist is great for keeping track of people. An important part of curation, for sure, but not the important parts.
- Robert Scoble
I also didn't get it. Is that something like your post in friendfeed and then all related content from all the other services (photos, videos, facebook comments...) are like comments threaded under?
- Martin Adamek
Susie: yes, our new son's name is Ryan Soroush Scoble.
- Robert Scoble
thinking about it some more - kinda sounds like Google Wave + Robots...
- Nicholas Orr
Nicholas: except I haven't seen a really great publishing tool in Google Wave yet. Certainly nothing that comes up to the quality of Tumblr or Posterous. And I haven't seen a great Twitter reader in it yet either.
- Robert Scoble
Martin: right. Except my curation tool would NOT have a forum turned on underneath like FriendFeed does (by default). It would be optional. FriendFeed got so close it isn't even funny!
- Robert Scoble
Yeah true - I was really thinking about the concept of a wave and it's replay/edit abilities - they seem like good things to have...
- Nicholas Orr
Robert, you're not trying to centralize things that can't/shouldn't be centralized are you (as in conversations) ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: hmm, I'm trying to get one place to post all my thoughts on what's coming across my screens. So far the industry hasn't given me that.
- Robert Scoble
I understand the need. You can already post in one place, but the problem is that not everyone follows you at that one place, right? I personally kinda like that conversation is distributed and hard to catch. It's like real life. Before you know it we will have aggregators that aggregate other aggregators that....
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: actually I don't know of some place that lets me put everything I do into one place. Not nicely, at least.
- Robert Scoble
I've seen a few dozen real good Real Time curation tools over the years. Onespot had one geared towards the blogosphere. Nowpublic, I think it was, has a tool geared towards journalists trying to decipher the twitterstream
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
@Robert. You are right (FF got close). That is what all these services you mention attempt. Waste of energy and duplication. It would be better if you would simply own a place on the web where you can do all that. Anyone connected to you would (if you grant them access) see your flow of information as soon as you are connected. #user-centric-web.
- Alexander van Elsas
Maybe it could be a relay - whatever comment is made on FF is made on your thing and vice versa, except your thing relays to FF,Facebook,Twitter,RSS,etc :) As Alexander says, unless people actually connect your thing the people wont see anything. Some people only know one thing..
- Nicholas Orr
@Scobleizer You are right on the Money. We need the 6 things that we like from the 6,588,555 things Check this out:... http://post.ly/5sPB
- Vasu Srinivasan
Released that yesterday -- http://docs.40twits.com/ -- not all that you describe but a lot of it. More coming in River2 possibly today. We had a good start in Radio, which I think you used.
- Dave Winer
Seems like this could be solved with a fairly simple web application that can post a selection of tweets, liked items, etc. to a blog API as a draft entry.
- Ankush Narula
Billion dollar opp is at http://www.pmex.net because gold and silver are the only thing in life that matters.
- James
Jajah – yet another dumb Twitter add-on idea - http://www.shootingatbubbles.com/index...
"Still, it’s very, very edgy to come up with a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Hmmm … I’ll stick with dumb"
- Alexander van Elsas
Re: Calling out Gabe and Techmeme over favoritism and censorship - http://www.shootingatbubbles.com/index...
"Gabe, your Techmeme always seemed to be an independent news source to me, in a world where we all know stories are played. Your response here proves me wrong. It's censorship, no matter what angle you look at it. And that's sad."
- Alexander van Elsas
Babbling instead of going to bed - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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- Alexander van Elsas
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