Bob Torres › Comments

"a test comment." - Bob Torres

"So cute!" - Bob Torres

"Thank you. :) The rain is getting to be a bit much. I can't recall any June like this in the 18 years that I lived in the city. It is insane. All I want to do is curl up inside and listen to the Smiths." - Bob Torres

"I agree with you that the praxis matters, but the theory and the praxis are intertwined. My contention isn't that envirovegans have NO theory, it is simply that I believe that their theory about why veganism is a rational response to environmental problems is wrong. There's no essential aspect of environmentalism that implies or requires veganism. So, I'm not sure that there is a sound basis in fact that requires veganism as a rational response to environmental degradation. For example, I absolutely hate to say this, but one could probably make a meaningful and factually correct argument that certain kinds of animal exploitation are less ecologically harmful on the whole than veganism. They might even be right, if they're specific enough with regard to bioregional consumption. I'm not going to make this argument for anyone, because I don't want words put in my mouth later about having done so, but it isn't an argument that really requires any great effort. Thus, my point is -- and has..." - Bob Torres

"If you think veganism is only about action, you have an odd view of veganism. To take a hypothetical, what if someone were vegan because they believed that white race needed to remain as pure as possible, and thus only consume plant products? Would that person then be an ally to veganism on the whole? I ask this only because I think the disconnect that you identify between theory and praxis is thoroughly misguided, though it does help me to understand why people are so confused within the so-called "movement" and why we're not really accomplishing much of anything. I argue this point because I think that the action is (and should be) informed by the theory. For example, someone who is vegan only for health reasons has no real reason to be fully vegan 100% of the time. One can eat small amounts of meat or dairy or eggs or fish and still be quite healthy. Similarly, an envirovegan has no real reason to be 100% vegan, because they can probably convince themselves at some point or another..." - Bob Torres

"Agreed. Ultimately, only AR veganism is what will keep people vegan, as you point out. I think it is way too easy to look at it from any other angle and find ways around it without too much ethical compromise. The rights position foregrounds a different set of concerns." - Bob Torres

"Misguided reasons or not, they got you here, right? ;) People come at this from a million different angles, and I think that's fantastic. Ultimately, many do come around to see an animal rights vision, and I now espouse beliefs that a mere 10 years ago I would have found quite nuts. But that's how life goes. Thanks for your comment." - Bob Torres

"It definitely is a different path for each person, no doubt there. I completely agree that if someone comes to veganism through other means -- health, environment -- we have an opportunity to talk about the ethical reasons, because ultimately, I believe these are the only ones that will inspire people to remain fully vegan in the long-term." - Bob Torres

"Thanks, Denise. I do think there are many levels to consider, and I would certainly advocate a more holistic vision than one offered either by veganism itself or environmentalism itself." - Bob Torres

"I know many vegans who took your path, Chris. I actually do think there are fantastic environmental benefits to veganism. My hope, though, is that people who come to it for environmental reasons move in the same direction you did. Thanks." - Bob Torres

"The article is written for us, animal rights vegans. In the second paragraph, I say: "If the environment gets people thinking about veganism and moving towards veganism, that’s wonderful, but ultimately, those of us who are vegan to respect the inherent persoonhood of animals have to take an active role in moving envirovegans beyond their mere environmentalism and into getting them to see veganism for what it is really about: the rights of non-humans." Granted, you're probably right that the presentation could be improved. It almost always can be, and this is just a blog entry, and not one that I've revised much. As for the accusations of "patronizing" and making wrong assumptions, that's just patently wrong. A great deal of the enviroveganism I've seen has been unreflective and rather ignorant of the personhood of animals. Just look up above to Dave's comments for a fine example. He implies that there's love in eating animals. Now, that's anecdotal observation, but it is a bit..." - Bob Torres

"You say my premise is ridiculous, but you don't really say what's ridiculous about it, and instead throw out a comparison that makes no sense. Veganism is most definitely not merely a diet; it is living principles in your daily life that happens to have a dietary component. To me, veganism isn't merely about what I eat. It is about how I see animals and how I believe that humans should relate to them. It is me living those principles as best I can in my life. As for the medical treatment, I don't really get your point at all, especially as it relates to what I wrote above. Because I hate wasting effort, I'll just paste in something from the draft of our book, because it explains why your criticism is absurd: --- begin quote -- The ubiquity of animal products in unavoidable places is a by-product of speciesism – we live in a world in which the social and economic systems provide us with no other real alternatives to these products, some of which are absolutely essential to our health..." - Bob Torres

"Thank you all for the thoughtful comments. I do think there's an opportunity here that we shouldn't ignore." - Bob Torres

"Ah right, I got your email, but have been so overwhelmed that I neglected a response. Sorry about that -- busy weeks here. I'll get back to you soon." - Bob Torres

"Thank you for the comment. You are right that our ability to choose is an incredible privilege, and that many others are forced into what are essentially plant-based diets because few other options exist apart from starvation. Back when I was a professor, I used to teach classes on the inequalities that arose out of our global economic order, and getting students to wrap their heads around the layers of domination was hard. Yet, it was always powerful when they realized it, and saw the concrete effects it had. Sadly, I see too few vegans making these important connections, unless they're trying to win an argument. ;) What I see more often is a kind of naive assumption that if we eat plants directly, they'll be more to go around. That may be true as a general rule, but the politics of food distribution make it almost irrelevant. In short, we need to better grasp the fundamentals of human inequality, and to try to get our fellow vegans to do some of the same." - Bob Torres

"Indeed. And we also need to remember that humans also suffer acutely. Sadly, I see too little of this awareness in the movement." - Bob Torres

"Thanks for the comments. It is easy to point fingers and lay blame -- and I'm not saying that we shouldn't -- but I think we have to watch out for that creeping misanthropy that always seems to be just underneath the surface in our movement. I'm glad you listen to the show, and I'm flattered that you speak kindly of us. We keep thinking we'll get a show out, but times have been super-busy here. Nevertheless, we will eventually have another one out. ;) Thanks again." - Bob Torres

"Constructive criticism is fine, but to compare my argument to your hypothetical was troubling. We don't engage in that kind of argument, and never have. To have read that implication was troubling. We both have spent a lot of time thinking about how to deliver this message to different people, and we deliver it differently depending on the context. For example, in the classes I taught on this when I was a University professor, I took a very different approach than I do here. In my other book, I take yet another approach. Point is, different audiences require different approaches. We're not trying to reach everyone; we never could, and we never will. We've been doing this for years now, and the first edition of our book sold many thousands of copies. While that's not a direct indicator of the success of our approach, it suggests that we're doing something right for at least some people. Responses to your points: i) On it being from a book: The title references it being an excerpt, and..." - Bob Torres

"Thank you all for the thoughtful comments." - Bob Torres

"Thank you for the constructive criticism. This is one page out of a book that is 200 pages long. It is not meant to be the single most persuasive argument ever written to convince people that eating cheese is wrong. It is an argument written, as the preface to the entry clearly says, to convince would-be vegans who are having a hard time giving up cheese to give it up. It is written for a specific audience, in the context of an entire book that is full of more information on every point I discuss, from the problems with the dairy industry to the nutritional aspects of veganism. As such, it may seem a bit decontextualized here, but I thought it would be interesting enough to share with other vegans, and I posted it in particular because a near-vegan asked me how to give up cheese. I do not intend for this message to be heard by ALL people, but however you look at it, I'm not using hyperbole (the nutritional data are direct from a nutritional database) and I'm not using "unbalanced..." - Bob Torres

"Thanks -- though as I point out, there's a context for what's being said here, and the context is the book preceding what's above. ;) Truth is, the book takes as its audience people who are predisposed to the animal rights position. We assume that you'd not pick up a book on going vegan for ethical reasons unless you were interested in such a thing. Regardless, we can't be everything to everyone, and we don't try to be. Thanks for the thoughts, and I hope you do enjoy the 2nd ed." - Bob Torres

"Quick responses: 1. The excerpt above is careful to say "if this hypothesis is true" in response to what is in the book a cited study underway pulled from a government grants database about the casomorpin connection. I don't have the citation in front of me now, but I can post it later when I have the file. 2. I cannot say for certain that all milk everywhere always contains pus. I can, however, say that most milk in most places will contain pus because of the nature of dairy production. Mastitis is a common condition in dairy herds, and pus is a by-product of the infection. Because the milk that 99%+ of consumers buy is pooled and aggregated prior to processing, most milk will thus likely contain pus. This is not something that I recall having been controversial in my dairy science classes, nor should it be controversial here. I don't get what the problem is: I say that the pus is biologically inactive, but there's still pus in the milk. Parse it however you want, but the metabolism..." - Bob Torres

"Thanks! We can't wait to have the second edition out. :)" - Bob Torres

"There's only one way to go: give that shit up! Seriously. Stop eating it now, and make a deal with yourself that you won't do it for a few weeks at least, if you can't bring yourself to make a deal yourself that you won't do it forever. During that time, try out other vegan foods, and don't go for the cheese alternatives. They won't be that good to you. In a few weeks, if you stop eating cheese and dairy, you will find that your tastes for it will change; it'll probably stop looking as good, and certainly, it'll start to smell funnier. At that point, you probably won't be as tempted to go back to it. If you are, remind yourself of the problems with it before you buy it or eat it. (We go into more depth about the hows and whys of this approach in the book.) As for the alternatives, they're not going to be perfect to you now if you're still eating regular cheese. Give yourself a month without real cheese, and then try out cheezly if you miss a cheddar, or Teese or Follow your heart if..." - Bob Torres

"Thanks. But remember, it is an excerpt from a larger book, and as such, it is decontextualized. As for "slave-owning farmer," I'm not sure how else to explain someone who holds another living being as property. There's nothing ranty there: it is an observation about the honest legal and factual relationship of the farmer (a property owner) to his property (the cows). We can talk about cows euphemistically, but when we get down to it, they're living beings producing profit for another without being rewarded for it. That's slavery, plain and simple. This is a relationship we explore more in the book, so it may be a bit decontextualized here, but I assure you, there's no rant behind it at all. A rant implies that I'm wild, and that I've lost rationality. Nothing could be less true. I'm not wild; these things are rational observations based on facts. I'd challenge anyone to dispute them, because in most of the world, this basic legal relationship between a farmer and "livestock" holds. As..." - Bob Torres

"There's nothing knee-jerk about what we've written above. Instead, it is based upon years of study and a careful analysis of what animal agriculture means. I assure you, I don't come at this knowing nothing about the topic; I have a degree in agricultural sciences, and to get that degree, I had to learn all about animal agriculture, from the smallest scale up to the largest industrialized farms. Later, turning my attention to these systems of production from the economic and sociological perspective I learned through my years of study to get my Ph.D., I came to understand them for what they were: exploitative, harmful, and injurious to people, animals, and the environment. (I wrote about animal agriculture from this perspective extensively in my book Making A Killing.) I know you think your idea about the "vegan quest" being "hollow" is somehow original, but it isn't. It is a critique I've heard many times, and the criticism shows only that you don't understand what veganism is about...." - Bob Torres

"I think it'd be a great idea to have a vegan buddy, but for lots of people, that may or may not be possible. You're right that we're surrounded by it, so at first, it can be hard. But I think that after a few weeks, or maybe at the outside a few months, of veganism, people's tastes change, and the notion of real cheese can be kind of foreign and even a little bit disgusting." - Bob Torres

"Thanks!" - Bob Torres