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Dan Conover › Likes
Thinking of Tina's thread from yesterday: Some lady stopped me to say, "Can I ask you a personal question?" I said sure and she liked my jeans and wanted brand/cost: $35 Levi from Kohl's, my $$ pair. She was stunned, said she normally spends $200 per. Somehow I managed to keep my jaw off the floor. Do people really spend that?
Imabug, Dan Conover and J Wynia liked this
$200 for a pair of jeans? ouch! no way I'd ever spend that much on a pair of jeans.
- Imabug
You know how they say the rich are different? I just spent three nights on the spa floor at the Trump Tower in Chicago. There was a $25 bottle of water in my room, a TV in the bathroom mirror and a phone in the toilet stall. The rich aren't just different, they're out of their freaking minds.
- Dan Conover
In the ideology of fluff "outrageous irony" plays a huge role in making the fluff look like news. But here fluff goes poof. http://is.gd/o6X9
Phillip Stewart, carl morris, Helen Sventitsky and 14 other people liked this
In the ideology of fluff, political thought follows the Holden Caulfield maxim: find the phony. You isolate the "outrageous irony," as Michael Scherer put it. Another way to boil it down: "Oh, the hypocrisy!" And if you're a journalist working in this style, the frothing irony is more important than the underling issue. Which enrages the people who care about the issue. The rage is then used to prove how independent the ironist is, taking the heat and telling the truth. Every practitioner of fluff reporting draws strong reactions because events have to be trimmed, sliced or just plain distorted so the account seems more ironical rather than ideological-- i.e. biased. This trimming and fiddling with the facts doesn't matter to people who don't care about the issue being trivialized, and it's to the benefit of those on the "other" side of whomever was taken down a notch by it. (See http://is.gd/ok8B) So they don't squeal. That leaves the fluffster and (in the fluffster's mind) partisans upset by a tweaking.
- Jay Rosen
Another element in the dynamic is captured in an earlier Tweet of mine: Journalists don't own a petard, they don't know from petards, so they have to hoist you on yours. Meaning: they're not allowed to defend, or articulate the political standard against which they wish to judge, say, the Obama Administration. So they have to take Obama's own statements and use those because that's ideologically innocent enough. "Hoisted on his own petard." What can be better?
- Jay Rosen
Thus, Andrew Malcom's recent fluff entry, "Obama White House bars press from press award ceremony," relies on all these methods: Look at how it starts "... Barack Obama was elected commander in chief promising to run the most transparent presidential administration in American history." http://is.gd/oaoO That's the tip off. We know what's coming: Outrageous irony! Holden Calufield: What a phony! Oh, the hypocrisy! Hoisted on his own petard! Hah!
- Jay Rosen
Then you look a little closer: Obama barred the press? Not really. He gave an exclusive on-the-record interview to the black press. http://is.gd/ofAI Ohhhhh. (That's the distortion.) Therefore he barred the press only in the sense that Andrew Malcolm was barred from the "are you a socialist?" interview the New York Times recently did with Obama. That's what an exclusive interview does: it excludes. Is Andrew Maclolm against THAT? Of course not. But he has his fluff item and he's going with it.
- Jay Rosen
This is from Jake Tapper on Twitter: "Preparing for day of hypocrisy: conservs who would normally defend the SpecOlymp joke acting offended, liberals saying lighten up. Sigh." http://is.gd/ohQ3 And who is the brave independent truthteller battling the phonies everywhere? Holden Tapper! And by the way, the sigh is a lie. Tapper isn't aggrieved by all the hypocrisy, and if he does feel a little pain the Drudge effect soothes it.
- Jay Rosen
So by fluff here you just mean trivial irony used to make an interesting story? Is it central to your thinking here that this results in "criticism from both sides" (in particular, criticism from the people whose issue has been trivialized)?
- j1m
Central to it is this: the fluff method builds in the reactions as fortification for the method. The people whose issue has been trivialized sqawk immediately. The people whose side has been advantaged by the fluff narrative scream at the hypocrisy (see the comment thread: http://is.gd/ok8B) so right off you got a nice little "partisans on both sides" screaming match, which almost ALL journalists want to wash their hands of, leaving the fluffster free for the next round of "... oh the hypocrisy!"
- Jay Rosen
Jake Tapper right now on Twitter explains to me why he's so down on the comments at his ABCNews.com site. jaketapper: @jayrosen_nyu @jayackroyd hate from L and R - shouting and personal attacks, mostly at each other, no dialogue/opp for me 2 hear fr viewers ... Jake would like intelligent feedback, but the "partisans on both sides" won't permit it. So he'll keep doing what he's doing....
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- Jay Rosen
Another thing: Many in medialand have taken flaming from both sides about the SAME STORY as a kind of validation of their essential truthiness, no, er... truthfulness, because if you're getting it from both sides that means you favored neither and slew their sacred cows equally, cow for cow. But if you get the ideology of fluff: one side loves the Caulfielding but rages at you for being fluffy, not cutting deeper, only tweaking. Other side complains about the (very real) distortions. Both mad. Same story.
- Jay Rosen
Do you think that journalists buy into this ideology more than their readers/viewers? It seems like more people want cheap feel-good entertainment than actual news; hence "special olympics" becomes a huge story while containing exactly zero content.
- Jim Norris
Do I think that journalists buy into this ideology more than their readers/viewers? Yes.You gotta watch one thing: your evidence that it was a huge story with users cannot be that it was a huge story with journalists, can it?
- Jay Rosen
Good point. How about the AIG bailout story: news or fluff? Pushed by journalists or pulled by the public?
- Jim Norris
Not fluff. For this reason among many http://is.gd/o69t
- Jay Rosen
Don't forget Josh Marshall's comments to the "eat your spinach crowd" http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archive...
- JJW
The roots of fluff: http://is.gd/oTeu @anamariecox "Orszag conference call very detailed and hard to follow; full of substance. Please stop: I am a political reporter and not used to this." Ha, ha. So funny, isn't it? She's just joking, of course. Poking fun at her peer group....amused?
- Jay Rosen
More on fluff from Dan Froomkin, though he does not use the word: http://blog.niemanwatchdog.org/... Then there's http://is.gd/qafT
- Jay Rosen
This looks like a PressThink blog post in the making... ;-)
- Bora Zivkovic
Definitely. From danieldoyle: @jayrosen_nyu seems this meets some qualifications for ideology of fluff. http://bit.ly/3BPSAe "Is President Obama trying to muzzle his press corps?" On what grounds: The British press got to ask four questions and the US press only three.
- Jay Rosen
Also relevant is this column from CNN's Ed Henry http://is.gd/oX6z To wit: Invariably, my Democratic friends tweaked along the lines of "how'd you like the smackdown" because they were pleased the president pushed back. But my Republican friends hailed me by saying essentially, "Thanks for doing your job -- he never answered the question." So the exchange was a great political Rorschach: Each party saw their own talking points in the reflection of the back-and-forth.
- Jay Rosen
Not the ideology of fluff but an example of fluff. "Mr. Obama spent his first few days in office rolling out an orchestrated series of executive orders intended to signal that he would take the nation in a very different direction from his predecessor, George W. Bush. Yet he wrestled with fresh challenges at every turn, found some principles hard to consistently apply and showed himself willing to be pragmatic — at the risk of irking some supporters who had their hearts set on idealism." http://is.gd/hanU
- Jay Rosen
I don't say things like OMG, but if I did... http://is.gd/r3z9 "What we can say for certain is that Tapper isn’t afraid to go against the grain of the liberal consensus in pursuit of a story. Whether he was pointing out that Barack Obama was a one-man gaffe machine, factchecking Obama on the surge, or chiding him for blaming any and all mistakes on his staff, no mainstream journalist...
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- Jay Rosen
Tapper is somewhat taken aback by the idea he’s rooting for the Right. “It’s always nice to be complimented — if that’s what that was,” he tells National Review Online. “Believe me, I don’t doubt there will come a day when Mr. Limbaugh and National Review consider me once again to be part of the ‘MSM,’ either too tough on Republicans or insufficiently tough on Democrats.” National Review http://is.gd/r3z9
- Jay Rosen
This one is almost too good. The ideology of fluff in some its purest form: http://tr.im/j9bg Dana Milbank reads his comments and guess what he discovers? "On Tuesday, I learned that I am a right-wing hack. I am not a journalist. I am typical of the right wing. I am why newspapers are going broke. I write garbage. I am angry with Barack Obama. I misquote Obama. I am bitter. I am a certified idiot. I am lame. I am a Republican flack." You know it's coming, right?
- Jay Rosen
Right... and here it comes... "On Thursday, I realized that I am a media pimp with my lips on Obama's butt. I am a bleeding-heart liberal who wants nothing more than for the right to fall on its face. I am part of the ObamaMedia. I am pimping for the left. I am carrying water for Obama. Lord, am I an idiot.... I discovered all this from the helpful feedback provided to me in the 'reader comments' section at the end of my past four columns on washingtonpost.com"
- Jay Rosen
Another piece of data: http://dyn.politico.com/printst... "...[AP] is scrapping the stonefaced approach to journalism that accepts politicians’ statements at face value and offers equal treatment to all sides of an argument. Instead, reporters are encouraged to throw away the weasel words and call it like they see it when they think public officials have revealed themselves as phonies or flip-floppers." See Holden Caulfield: the phonies! The flip floppers!
- Jay Rosen
http://tr.im/jvpw More from Dana Milbank "The House Judiciary Committee called a hearing yesterday to study the decline of the newspaper business, but it quickly deteriorated into a press-bashing session. Ideologues of the left and right made no effort to conceal their yearning for a day without journalists, when public officials would no longer be scrutinized."
- Jay Rosen
Ex-Chronicle editor: "The public was seen as kind of messy and icky and not something you needed to get involved with." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
Bora Zivkovic and Dan Conover liked this
So here's my meme about the bailouts. Remember Reagan's diatribes against "welfare Cadillacs?" Well, these bailouts are that. I don't want anyone turning a profit on the welfare I'm paying them. No gifts of cash, no sweetheart deals. It should hurt to accept a bailout but be better than folding.
Derek Coward, J Wynia, Imabug and Dan Conover liked this
That everyone is lining up to get one is because it is the rational decision when there is low-repercussion pots of money just being handed out. You'd never dream of giving away this money to poor people with so little consequence. Why do it for rich people?
- Dave Slusher
I couldn't agree more. So the question becomes: How do you structure it? And when I think about that question, which is the kind of question I used to have to ponder seriously, I think, "Hey, who's up for hot chocolate?"
- Dan Conover
So that any company is "too big to fail" and needs welfare to survive is a failure of anti-trust enforcement. So, as a stipulation of taking the bailout, companies have to divest, split into other companies, etc. If you need cash because you are too big to fail, get small before we pay you.
- Dave Slusher
That companies are looking to use this money to acquire other companies makes my head explode. It should be a stipulation that the opposite occurs.
- Dave Slusher
Lots of stuff in the works for Home Ec 101 over the next month. Things are seriously ramping up until at least the New Year. Yay!
Paul Reynolds and Dan Conover liked this
Because it rocks.
- Dan Conover
“I just started a FriendFeed room for ConvergeSouth conference starting today: http://friendfeed.com/rooms... - http://friendfeed.com/e...
david beckwith, Dan Conover, rab and 2 other people liked this
How many journalists went to Olympics? When they ask for my support I'm going to refuse. How many went to Somalia? Iraq?
Gavin, Dimitar Vesselinov, Brad Nickel and 18 other people liked this
What's this in regards to?
- Alex Scoble
Can't blame them. Not nearly as many bullets being fired in Bejing.
- Nathaniel Payne
I've never had a journalist ask for my support... I must be one of the lucky ones not pn the journalist beg-a-thon mailing list.
- Soulhuntre
from twhirl
wha?
- Veronica
Excellent point.
- Sean McBride
Huh?
- Phil Yanov
Perhaps you should be questioning the larger media outlets versus photographers. Media outlets after all control money and their assignments. Clearly the Olympics pulls in a larger audience... for better or worse.
- Jim Goldstein
For whom do the photogs work? How many different news outlets? Even if the same number of photographers were covering a war, you wouldn't see them all in a single clump. Olympic coverage is where the news outlets, not individual journalists, have decided their readers/watchers want them. Take it up with those who pay the bills. And I don't get the "asking for my support" bit. Is there a pledge drive?
- Shelly Brisbin
from twhirl
How many journalists are on the ground in South Ossetia, reporting on the point of view of South Ossetians who were the victims of Georgia's invasion of their territory? Certainly this is a much bigger story than the Olympics, from the standpoint of global politics.
- Sean McBride
Imagine focusing on the athletic events at the 1936 Olympics, hosted by Nazi Germany, while paying little attention to the political events in Germany and Europe which were driving the world towards World War II. That wouldn't be very bright.
- Sean McBride
Robert, when people turn on a TV they dont want to see misery and pain spilling all over them. Many in the West think they have enough of that already. What they want is shiny faces, semi-naked wo/man, celabrities and fun! Traditional media knows this very well and that is how they capitalize on this psychology- by sending many journalists to Olympics and scarcily brushing Iraq.
- Hayk H.
If thats the case, shouldnt you be blogging about Somalia, Iraq, or Ossetia rather than technology?
- Colby Olson
15k are going to conventions too. They are acting as cogs in a system with a bottom line$. Again, would love to chat re: spot.us
- David Cohn
They don't want to see misery and pain? How do you explain the popularity of such shows as Survivor, Deadliest Catch, the evening news, most sitcoms, 24? Most TV is about misery and pain. But it's about someone else's misery and pain put in a way that is supposed to make one feel better about their own lot in life.
- Alex Scoble
what's the point of this tweet robert?
- Jason Goldberg
Hmmm .. I bet a lot of those photographers have families, the need to earn a living etc. I am sure they look at the best assignment for them in the bigger picture of their lives. It's easy to say that their priorities should lie in capturing what's happening in Somalia. It's why most of us have jobs and are not volunteering in sub-saharan Africa.
- Deepak Singh
@Alex, when a misery and pain is rendered into a Hollywoody or MTV format of entertainment - as a show, a sitcom, a film - that earns lot of admiration and following. But when TV shows smth that is considered news and alos blurps here and there how the news might be threatening democracies or liberties of other human beings, this is quite another affair.
- Hayk H.
I think the difference is that sport pays great. War doesn't, or at least doesn't after people been watching it for years now.
- Vincent van Wylick
I am still unsure about what the paradox here is supposed to be. Are we somehow short of photographers so having a bunch at the Olympics means none anywhere else? In a social media network almost entirely dominanted by people writing millions of words on the latest gadgets and websites how much weight do these sorts of protests carry?
- Soulhuntre
Did you go in Somalia or Iraq? Not everyone is a was journalist... not everytime is a question of censoring and media manipulation... Some of them are there, there is the need to give them more voice...
- Edoardo Piccolotto
from twhirl
Maybe you should be taking pictures in Somalia or Ossetia instead of photowalks in California, if your recent declarations of responsibility are something you truly believe.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Mark: funny, but you missed my point. I'm not the one complaining about my industry. I'm not the one laying off journalists. There are thousands of journalists covering the Olympics that were paid to attend. It's a resource priority issue. By the way, our Photocycle professional photographer/host is going to South Africa next month. You also missed my next post, where I admitted that I am stuck in the same sports rut that everyone else is.
- Robert Scoble
The problem is that by going to China, broadcasters and governments have recognized the Chinese administration, while in 1936 the international behaviour was far bitter. Why this different approach? For the mony obviously, but I agree with Robert. It's a waste of money and a negative message sent to China's government.
- Francesco Federico
from twhirl
OK. So, if we're in for cheap shots: http://tinyurl.com/69hb2f - 132 journalists killed so far. Of those 110 were incredibly brave Iraqis and 32 were photojournalists.
- mattpovey
I am in a mood to keep up the cheap shots: http://tinyurl.com/6z4k24 (Swedish journalist killed in Somalia in 2006). After Iraq, Somalia was the second deadliest country for journalists in 2007 with seven deaths (http://tinyurl.com/5fozpv). While I understand your frustration Robert, I feel that you are directing your ire at the wrong target.
- mattpovey
The BBC sent around 300 and NBC sent 2000+
- Jamie
Sport journalists cover the Olympics, political journalists cover Ossetia, it got nothing to do with resource priority.
- Amit Morson
@Amit Morson: Agreed, though it's foreign correspondents really, rather than the political type. It's not as if it wasn't being covered before the war, it's just that noone was paying attention (http://tinyurl.com/578xfj). Incidentally, at risk of flogging a dead horse: http://tinyurl.com/6k2vte - a list of journalists killed in Russia since 2000.
- mattpovey
@Francesco Federico - so if we didn't "recognize" the Chinese government it would go away? The differences between now and 1936 are many ... global economic interdependence, the existence within China of a massive nuclear capability and the much more open nature of global communications. The game has changed.
- Soulhuntre
The US government now very tightly controls the images that are able to get out of war zones. Photographers were much more free to document in previous wars. So many of the most powerful images that were taken of the Vietnam war would never make it out of Iraq today. The US government sees it's role as PR in controlling the images produced by today's war photographers. That's too bad.
- Thomas Hawk
According to state polling at electoral-vote.com, looks like Obama could win the election even if he loses Ohio, Florida, Va. & Indiana.
Dan Conover liked this
Let's pick a day and all inflate our tires together - http://www.scripting.com/stories...
Tony Buser, Brian Ries, David Lynch and 9 other people liked this
"We need to find more ideas that can make us $29 billion, again and again. We need to think like a corporation that wants to return to profitability because that's what's going to heat our homes and keep us moving. We've run out of frontiers to exploit, and now we have to face the reality that we must learn how to live with each other. The sneering and bullying must be over, and Obama did what we all have to do when faced with willful ignorance -- tell it to fuck off, we don't have the time for this nonsense, we're busy solving problems, no time to argue with idiots."
- Dave Winer
I agree. Ironically, thinking like a corporation and making line by line budget changes can really help. Small changes.
- Francine Hardaway
from twhirl
Dave Winer is more aptly referred to as if at roll-call: Winer Dave
- eggsy
Dave Winer says "we must learn how to live with other" and then, in the very next sentence, refers to those with whom he, presumably, can't get get along as willfully ignorant idiots. Brilliant, Winer Dave
- eggsy
How you guys just ditch your cars altogether. Just think of how much oil you'd save then! It's not that hard, really.
- Clint Ecker
I can live with willfully ignorant idiots -- I do it every goddam day. :-)
- Dave Winer
It is unlikely that there will be a single magic bullet that will help use deal with Green issues. Instead, it will be the cumulative effect of lots of little things. So, we need to generate and test lots of ideas. We need to encourage this behavior with positive comments about even small ideas.Adobe was able to save $1.2 million a year in their San Jose offices, but it took 64 little...
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- Doug Neal
from twhirl
i would like to see everyone stop idling their car, you know 10second rule with modern cars, ---it takes more gas to idle for more than 10seconds, than to turn off and on. @Kirk yes it is true, http://www.slate.com/id... via http://sections.asme.org/florida...
- David Lynch
@David A link, or it's not true. ;-)
- Kirk Kittell
It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant! - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Tim Probst, Kevin Hessel, Krishna Gade and 28 other people liked this
who ya talking about?
- @baratunde
from twhirl
Well said. I like just the way he tells the story. Just like how it is. we might not agree with everything he has to say or all his policies but he is the right man for the job.
- Akshay Dodeja
I added this video to http://rep.ublican.com/ -- my scrapbook for the Republicans.
- Dave Winer
He's really wonderful when he's on, like he is here. Whatever peptalk he gave himself before this talk, he needs to do that every time he takes the stage. This is the kind of leadership we need. Why shouldn't we all be doing that tire gauge thing. Make it a matter of civic duty, civic pride, keep your tires inflated, send less of our money overseas.
- Dave Winer
@Baratunde ALL of them
- Prolific Programmer
OMGZ he rocked it. Best quote of the week.
- jeneane sessum
Totally love this guy, talk about being efficient all the way down the line!
- Jean-Marie Moës
The Republicans big-wigs take pride in falsehoods, not ignorance. Thus, they take pride in CREATING ignorance.
- Master David Goodmen
Love it. The last line gave me chills. This dude could sell me beachfront property in AZ. I sure as heck hope that ability translates to his future job as President.
- cjmart
@ David - and electing ignorance, and appointing ignorance...
- jcunwired
White House is Briefed: Phoenix About to Announce "Potential For Life" on Mars - http://www.universetoday.com/2008...
Royce Mathew, americanm, Jesse Stay and 51 other people liked this
"It would appear that the US President has been briefed by Phoenix scientists about the discovery of something more "provocative" than the discovery of water existing on the Martian surface. "..... Holy. Fucking. SHIT.
- dave mcclure
from Bookmarklet
Wow! That would be something else! For real! Mars Phoenix FTW!!! However, later in the article, they make the following statement: "Scientists are keen to point out however, that this secretive news will in no way indicate the existence of life (past or present) on Mars; Phoenix simply is not equipped make this discovery." Still AMAZING science!
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
would our president even know what they're talking about? And why would "the president" need to be "briefed" about this? Because if Martians have oil we'll need to bring them democracy first?
- Adam Turetzky
If Phoenix has detected a carbon signature in the soil samples, it's huge. Provocative, indeed: we'd have to go and look for ourselves, most likely. But if we found life so close to Earth, and under such hostile conditions, it would speak strongly to life being more common than previously imagined.
- Chris Baskind
Wow, this is MASSIVE. :) Very cool to see this story unfold.
- sergiooo
I'd be afraid W might launch a massive attack against mars...
- Chrimmus Tad
Extremely awesome news though! :)
- Chrimmus Tad
OMG!
- Andrew Baron
Maybe they found Atlantean technology...
- Chrimmus Tad
Turns out the ice they previously found was in a glass, with scotch. And there's a seriously pissed off martian who wants his/her/its drink back :D. Seriously, the "wet chemistry" sensors won't detect organic compounds or "life building blocks" like sugars or aminoacids, but there's lots of unexpected things up there, apparently. It seems that Mars is way more Earth-like than previously thought. Time to pick up "Pale Blue Dot" again, folks.
- dario
This time around Bush will tell the public that he was given fals information .......
- John Blanton
from twhirl
Reading a newspaper article this morning - pictures suggested new sediment deposit since last imaging of the same area. Am I right in thinking that means liquid water has moved across part of the surface of Mars in the seven years between missions? That's pretty freaking amazing if you ask me. Dunno about life, but it seems almost inevitable we'll find some kind of organic compounds there sooner or later, even if it IS stuff we've deposited ourselves!
- Slappy Line
Bush will never believe there is life in Phoenix; he is a Texan, after all. He won't hear anything after that.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
So there is intelligent life in the Universe, then we could stop pretending we're it :)
- Dani Radu
@dario: clap, clap, clap :)
- dave mcclure
President Bush, the answer is 42
- Jesse Stay
from twhirl
Very interesting... but no announcement until after the Olympics and maybe the GOP convention, I bet.
- Bill Sodeman
If you're following the ABCNews "anthrax came from Iraq" story, see Marcy Wheeler: http://is.gd/1cPM. Her tracing skills are exceptional.
Dan Conover liked this
Hurray! HE is finally getting a little more recognition in the frugal community.
Dan Conover liked this
Where? How?
- Dan Conover
Just more link love than we usually get. I'm not sure what changed.
- Heather Solos
How do we save journalism? Since newspapers' business model is just disappearing very quickly, and advertising money is moving away from TV too, how do we fund journalism that we all need? Living off of $1 CPMs isn't gonna be it (that won't fund serious journalism).
Gavin, Jay Neff, Cedric Chee and 68 other people liked this
Craig: I saw something yesterday that makes me think affiliate marketing is going to be a BIG deal in about four years. But will it be in time to save newspapers? We're going to lose quite a few in the next four years.
- Robert Scoble
There's two issues here: one is that the product of journalism is so easily distributed now, it makes the purchase of its artifacts (the physical paper) unnecessary and even unseemly.
- Jim Benson
Interesting. I don't think that funding of journalism ala carte like that will work that well. It might here and there, but the real problem is we don't know what kind of journalism we need until after we see it. Would anyone have done ala carte funding to break open Watergate, for instance? No. Not before the fact. Not very sexy for anyone. After the fact? Yes.
- Robert Scoble
The second is that advertising was never quantifiable and never worked very well even in a highly regimented economy. Now, with a more distributed economy, blanket advertising is totally ineffective. -- To solve this we need to solve both problems. (1) dealing with a diffused distribution model and (2) dealing with a diffused economy.
- Jim Benson
Jim: the second part (that advertising isn't quantifiable) is what is killing newspaper business models. If you're a business, where would you rather put your ad budget? The local newspaper or Google? I know where I would rather spend my money.
- Robert Scoble
Value used to be assigned to two things (1) the object and (2) bulk eyeballs. Repackaging the assumptions of media is key here. They are no longer making a broadcast or a paper (a single big sellable object), but, rather, a lot of diffused things which is monetized in different - but not entirely dissimilar ways. What's funny is ... for news ... context sensitive ads are not applicable. At a school shooting story you don't want adds for automatic weapons, for example.
- Jim Benson
Regarding ala carte: I'm going to do another week in Washington DC. It costs about $10,000 to take a video crew there and get media done for a week. If it weren't for a serious sponsor I'd never get to do that. But that's not even serious journalism. To really chew on a story like Watergate you need months of investigative and relationship-building work. Maybe even years. I doubt it could be done by an outsider. That means having millions to fund that kind of work. Ala carte just ain't gonna do that.
- Robert Scoble
Jim: good point, the packaging and distribution of news is totally changing. Local news is moving to sights like Topix, too.
- Robert Scoble
here's one idea via spot.us: "If the public has a freelance budget, reporters don’t have to wait for an editor to approve their story. Now they can seize the day and pitch the public." http://blog.spot.us/2008... for example, crowdfunding Scoble-like reporters/bloggers. something like a PBS for the blogosphere.
- ~C4Chaos
What's interesting to me is that I'm now in a VERY small town, & the TV broadcast doesn't cover what happens up here in this tiny hamlet. So I'm more dependent on the local rag then I ever was back in the Bay Area. Perhaps creating newspapers that that focus on smaller geographical areas or "types" of people (SAHM moms, environments advocates, etc.) - which is, of course, what bloggers have been able to do with microniching.
- Michelle MacPhearson
By thee way, it's interesting that FriendFeed is good for a topic that can be settled in about 20 back and forth messages, but isn't good for longer topics that need a longer effort. We could build an entire conference for a few days around this topic. It's important for our society to figure this out, yet putting all the pieces and all the thinking together on this is very difficult. Admob, for instance, has one tiny piece (really great ads for iPhone) that can play a part in saving journalism.
- Robert Scoble
Unfortunately people are getting too used to free everything and seem to be surprised when people need to put food on the table. My wife is a magazine editor so I know first hand how the magazine industry is basically going downhill fast. People are getting laid off daily and taking pay cuts. I would have to say that the current magazine business model will be done soon after newspapers. Not even by virtue of sales and subs but by the reallocation and sheer lack of advertising dollars in this economy.
- Scott Lockhart
C4Chaos: let's be honest, though, a crowd-sourced journalism is going to give us all the news we already get. Celebrities and sports. Who will fund some geek to do investigative journalism that sounds really boring? I just don't believe in the masses. I think we need a better idea for how to fund this stuff. And, there's a lot working against you. The people with audiences are too busy to tear themselves away from what they are doing.
- Robert Scoble
I still think the key word is Quality. If institutionalized journalist will be able to bring good quality stories the people will buy their paper. In areas like army and politics the veteran publicist have the advantage since having better sources to deliver the stories, in other spaces like tech there's an advantage for internet journalists. Conducting profound inquiries that lead to...
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- Nir Ben Yona
Nir: I'm never buying a newspaper again, no matter how good the journalism is inside. Neither is my son. So, bad assumption there. Second of all, the $.50 you pay for the newspaper does NOT pay for the content inside. The advertising does. So, if the advertising disappears the great journalism disappears too (which is happening VERY rapidly in the Bay Area as the newspapers have laid off hundreds of journalists recently).
- Robert Scoble
I might be coming across as a Kevin Kelly fanboi today but here http://bit.ly/3aAu3e he suggests that people like to pay because it is; "1) A way of connecting. 2) A sign of approval. 3) A vote. 4) It indicates an alligence with the maker. 5) It feels good to the payer, to support." Hopefully this model might work for journalism, music, and other forms of digital art and expression
- jeremy ettinghausen
Nir: I can tell you with a very straight face that good journalism does NOT get readers. What does get readers? Comedy, celebrity, and sports and small, bite-sized news nuggets.
- Robert Scoble
Nir: also, we live in a Google World: a world of niches. Some niches pay better than others. Great journalism about digital cameras or cars pays MUCH better than good journalism about world peace, for instance. Why? Because Google's advertising system is biased toward transactional audiences and rewards the creation of content that feeds those audiences.
- Robert Scoble
Nir: I would have to disagree with you and agree with Robert - it's ALL about the advertising. That's why magazines give away subscriptions at ridiculous prices compared to their newsstand cost - guaranteed eyeballs to sell ads against. Even if readers were still reading newspapers and magazines at the same rate as they did in the 80s, if the advertising $ today were being diverted to more directed internet campaigns (Google, etc) the industry would still be in decline.
- Scott Lockhart
good point on crowdfunding, Robert. but i was thinking more of a PBS model. (also been reading stuff on this topic on http://www.pbs.org/idealab/). the PBS model had been successful for a long time now so its a good place to start. isn't that similar to crowdfunding but without the crowd necessarily dictating what stories to cover? speaking of media and journalism, maybe we can get Danny Schechter (aka "News Dissector" who produced Weapons of Mass Deception) pitch his two cents on this topic.
- ~C4Chaos
Seems to me there are two problems at work: producing paper is quite costly on the expense side (big fixed costs, typically union labor, etc.). And on the revenue-generating side, there seems to be not enough of what folks want to read (not enough local, overreliance on AP wire, etc.). I'd argue that papers' reporting isn't local enough/specialized enough to have value. With the right local/specialized content -- some professionally reported, some user-generated -- why wouldn't PPC work for the papers?
- Eric Johnson
Oddly I was just thinking about this subject. Unfortunately I came up with very little. One possibility is to create an Xprize type mechanisms so people are richly rewarded for the often unrewarding work of journalism. The key isn't newspapers per say, but supporting the idealism of those who take on the sacred work of providing societies' mirror of truth. This is a distributed people's journalism rather than one organized around artificial organizations like a paper.
- Todd Hoff
The PBS model will not work on the web. Why? Because the web decentralizes and disaggregates things. PBS worked because of the bundling of things together. Yanni raises more money for them than Nova does. But on Web bundling Yanni with Nova makes no sense.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I'm the founder of Spot.Us (mentioned above). I agree that Water Gate wouldn't have been pre-funded, but reporting like this http://wiki.spot.us/election could merit pledges. Right now spot.us is in a VERY early stage (pre-alpha really) - but I do think it's a potentially new revenue stream. Not a silver bullet (I don't think there are any silver bullets), but it can't hurt to try ;) No matter what: I want to thank you for bringing the topic up - it's incredibly important.
- David Cohn
To continue the idea of support create a legal fund to help fight the battles. Lobbying groups to help fight the muzzle. Organize like a church or non-profit so people could contribute to a support network for journalists. Driving journalism solely through profits may not make sense. Journalism a higher social good packaged like spam. Maybe it should be organized more like other higher callings we appreciate?
- Todd Hoff
Private and public funding seems like a more likely avenue to save journalism. Paper press though is all but dead.
- Todd Jordan
I'll go along with Robert, where does an advertiser put his funds? Naturally they want to market to people in their market and not just splash an ad out for people who are not in their market to see To survive the newspaper industry will have to start going further into targeting their ads to a market instead of the the shotgun effect.
- Scot Duke
I know nothing about journalism, I'm just a professional code monkey. But I have a crazy idea - what about something like similar to kiva.org to fund journalism?
- imabonehead
Gregory: I think you would be surprised at how much news that is spread on the web was first broken by paid journalists, even today. I think the real issue is that the method of information delivery is secondary. It is more about having a free and independent "press" (or wordpress) that holds us all accountable and can provide its contributors a living. So losing newsprint itself is not a loss, but losing the 1000s of reporters and writers that are able to do what they do because of it, is...
- Scott Lockhart
@imabonehead Kiva.org is a BIG inspiration for my project: spot.us - in fact, I often just explain it to people as Kiva.org or Donors Choose for journalism.
- David Cohn
David, cool. Didn't see the url mentioned earlier by other posters. It's still an early Saturday for me. :)
- imabonehead
Robert & Scott: I totally understand your point and i do agree when it comes to day-by-day journalism. After all, it is a lose-lose situation for the institutionalized papers, they can't fight the speed and accessibility of internet news and info, especially for busy people like us who have no time for long articles reading while working. On the other hand i do find niche journals like Science Magazine or Nature for example, able to maintain worldwide readers with quality publication and pro debriefing.
- Nir Ben Yona
Nir: I would have to say that I be surprised if they are doing well... Magazines and newspapers are fairly different, yet similar in a lot of ways too. The magazine format with its combination of design and short and long form journalism is a little harder to replicate online and hasn't been done all that well to this point. If you want to see what is happening at least in magazines, even with very niche titles: check out http://magazinedeadpool.com/ There's a whole blog devoted to publications going under
- Scott Lockhart
<continue> with experts sharing their thoughts and researches. That is a quality journalism that attracts readers. Robert, i'm sure your 14 years son won't mind getting a monthly pro car magazine or a "PC Mag" alike version if he's into tech or gadgets. My point is that there is a place for quality and somehow (maybe naively) i'd like to think some people do go after interesting stories and not just "Celeb Gossip". Maybe it is the same as after the bubble burst, sort of a cleaning occurrence...
- Nir Ben Yona
in an ideal world there would be a Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for journalism where journalists could practice their craft free (or almost free) of corruption. a combination of philanthropy/non-profit/donation and subscription model as opposed to journalism run as a for-profit business would save journalism standards. for example, The Nation (see http://www.thenation.com/) is running on a combination of subscriptions, advertising, and donations.
- ~C4Chaos
<continue> to let the good prevail. In my vision, in 10 years, the big newspapers will have a weekly internet edition threw their website and a weekend edition with more investigative stories.
- Nir Ben Yona
This year in magazines these are the losses in advertising revenues for some very established US magazines. What were are seeing here is just destroying their already small profit margins: Entertainment Weekly (-16.8%), Kiplingers Personal Finance (-15.3%), US News & World Report (-30.3%), Home (-30.9%), and Scientific American (-20.3%) Lucky (-12.2%), The New Yorker (-20.1%), and ESPN The Magazine (-14.8%)
- Scott Lockhart
sorry for possibly over-commenting this thread, but it is a subject close to my heart and my shared back account. :) Cheers!
- Scott Lockhart
Nir: you're wrong. My son thinks magazines are pretty worthless. He reads MacRumors and Engadget, both of which bring him much better and more timely news than any magazine can (and more of it, too). FastCompany is actually doing very well compared to the magazine industry, which is interesting (it grew last year). But the category it is in lost several competitors, so overall the trend is right and probably will catch up with FastCompany at some point which is why we're investing online more and more.
- Robert Scoble
Scott: but maybe it is part of the global recession that has dropped margins everywhere, not just in journalism.
- Nir Ben Yona
I'm interested in saving journalism, but the question posed here seems to be about funding. Guess it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Seems like the distance between the reader and the writer has knocked a lot of the middle folks out of the picture, and it's harder to justify the kind of money they're asking for. When it comes to value in journalism, however, I still prefer hard facts over style, design, even spelling and sometimes grammar (and I'm a picky art director). Trust costs more than packaging?
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Here's the process: 1. End of newspaper advertising ends artificial subsidy funding of "quality" journalism; 2. Supply & demand takes effect; 3. We start to get our first picture of what value people will put on different types of information.
- Dan Conover
We'll know an awful lot more about the future shape of journalism about a year or so after the 20th century metro newspaper system collapses/goes on life support (I'm guessing by summer of 2009, but that's a guess). But the one thing I'm pretty sure about is this: There won't be one way of funding journalism, and we won't lump everything that gets reported under that one heading anymore.The fundamental idea: There should be a logical connection between the info you produce & its supporting revenue streams.
- Dan Conover
Robert: i guess i'm a dope concerning nowadays kiddies. As for FastCompany, i do hope you will keep delivering the good stuff as long as possible. BTW, do you agree with my conjecture of a daily internet edition and weekly hard-copy version, coming up in few years?
- Nir Ben Yona
I think you will get a mixture of rich corporations and individuals trying to fill the gap, like Google. But pushed out from the security of the newsroom, there will also be a flurry of entrepreneurship among the journalists who are displaced. Don't assume that subscription won't work in the future, either. It may well be that newspapers have actually been obscuring the need and opportunity for a higher quality journalism. I believe The Economist has achieved impressive growth against the secular trend.
- Tim Penn
journalism doesn't necessarily imply newspapers, does it?
- Adri Munier
No, but about 90% of what "A-List" blogs do is NOT journalism. I'm no authority, but I'm beginning to see why people say there is a difference. "Editorial Discretion" Oh, @Tim, you're absolutely right. Online and print content can thrive in a subscription model if there is value. The mistake newspapers made was giving it away in the first place.
- Andrew Feinberg
And the general newspaper model makes zero sense now. A daily packaged product can work for niche content, but who reads the entire newspaper? I use the big paper websites for different reasons (local, national, international, etc). Political news? Niche publications. I buy (or sometimes expense) Roll Call, CQ and CongressDaily. People in the Cable/Internet/Telecoms buy CommDaily and WID. There are tons of other niche trade pubs that are thriving. It's the blob of daily newspapers that needs to be split up
- Andrew Feinberg
It's important to realize that journalism is a process, not a product. Newspapers might not survive but the craft of Journalism will. The question is... how? There are no concrete answers right now - but I do think that practicing journalists are earnestly trying to figure that out (for the first time). @Robert - I don't think Ala cart funding for journalism will lead to Brittany Spears stories. There are ways around that - I'll try and write a blog post at blog.spot.us with more details.
- David Cohn
Since there is no known answer to this question, the most important thing to do right now is launch as many possible experiments in as many possible directions, increasing the likelihood that we will find good answers a little faster. But it's vital to understand that this is essentially *research* -- practical research, but research nonetheless. And in research, the dead ends are...
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- Scott Rosenberg
This is currently an unsolved problem, a hard concept for some to grasp. Every possible answer--rich people! foundations! internet advertising! crowdfunding!--has some pretty glaring defects. No one has the solution yet. Right now the most promising developments are Talking Points Memo (http://is.gd/1cVX), funded by ads and reader support and doing investigative journalism of the kind we want; Pro Publica, funded by rich people (http://is.gd/uLu) and spot.us, which is crowd funding.
- Jay Rosen
Jay lists 3 good funding sources. Also consider: Nonprofit corporation (supported by pledge drives, sponsorships, foundations, etc.); true-cost intelligence subscriptions (as with STRATFOR) and smart amalgams of keyword/display/classifieds/and various affiliate-type programs. And where I think it gets REALLY interesting is when you start creating information tools that have specific value to the end user. You add value, you take profit.
- Dan Conover
The trick? In Web journalism, you're paying for people costs. You're not paying for trucks and paper and ink and presses. So when people say "The Web can't pay for journalism" what they're REALLY saying is "The Web can't support newspapers and TV stations."
- Dan Conover
The thing I'm really looking forward to putting my energy into is developing some kind of smart, shared business infrastructure that would connect individuals who make content to all the reliable services that a new-media businesses will need to make money. You might be able to make some money writing useful articles and selling your own ads and doing your own site, but that's not a bright long-term prognosis. And yes, I'm a newspaper guy who signed up for a buyout last week.
- Dan Conover
Won't journalism always win Pulitzers? Which brings a sort of global cache and prestige... which is what newspapers hope to gain, such that the world will pay attention, right? That's at the highest level. There can always be prestige and prize for journalism at all levels... even if it has to come from new sources.
- Christopher Galtenberg
it's so easy... just do as in Italy, where crap newspapers (most all of them) are financed by the government!
- Luigi Centenaro
Newspapers are thriving in the ethnic market, primarily at the local level. The reason for the success is that their readership is starving for intl/local ethnic information. Weeklies are the way; most papers are run by journalists from their respective countries-it is extremely streamlined. Journalists need to take the initiative with sales professionals and open up local, weekly newspapers that serve specific niches/markets/topics. Also, home delivery is a must, as is a strong grass-roots component.
- Harold Cabezas
Robert, I think you could ask a different question here, too. Was there a journalistic failure running through the housing bubble and its aftermath? In his new book, Robert Shiller suggests there was, but he made the arguments clearly before about the tech bubble. Given the scale of importance of this story, if we ask what might journalism have done differently, the answer might also suggest useful commercial or funding structures.
- Tim Penn
Altrustic funding isn't the answer. Newspapers will have to stand on their own merits just like any capitalist enterprise. I'd like to more Nritish style
- Hutch Carpenter
British style that is. More point of view included in the reporting. You win on your point of view.
- Hutch Carpenter
Journalism needs a couple of things (1) a lower distribution cost structure and a lower news acquisition cost structure. If you look at online news folks (like Scoble, others) they've found an effective way to lower the distribution costs of their journalism. To lower news acquisition cost you need to look for alternatives to collecting news, whether it's UGC or leveraging a freelance network like Beet.tv is doing with TurnHere (disclosure - I work for TurnHere).
- Morgan
<continued morgan> (2) the big media companies need to move quickly into diversified news outlets (as has been mentioned above) reducing the number of pages in newspapers, moving from trying to bash the mass over the head and instead move towards aggregating the long-tail of news consumers to roll up in to a critical mass not through one communication vehicle (i.e. a paper) but through many diverse channels. Finally they need to go for more sponsorship money and less ad money as we've seen in other biz.
- Morgan
whatever it is can't be based on lame-O advertising cuz i NEVER click those.
- Susan Beebe
I haven't commented on this yet because I really don't have anything substantial to contribute yet. But it's had me thinking for 24 hours. I guess that's not a bad thing.
- Chris Baskind
One of the things implied in all this (at least for me) is the idea of completely self-selected news. It's an exciting development to be able to do that, but what are we missing? Scoble hits it on the head when he says Watergate reporting wouldn't get done under this model. If we're going away from news bundlers like newspapers, can we find a new business model to finance serious journalism? And what does a society without serious journalism look like?
- Tom Landini
I don't like that I can't tell when these comments occurred. I have no idea if I should bother to comment. Has the conversation moved on or do people come back and talk more?? And what's with not being able to use paragraphs? Lots of text is a pain to read.
- Dawn
Lots of interesting thoughts here. I have to say that this very subject is on my mind daily as I personally aggregate Hispanic news and have done so for 3 years to the tune of 40k+ posts. Just one niche among many but I worry about the loss of journalists especially since at least within the Hispanic community it is perceived that there aren't enough journalists covering issues...
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- Tomas
Dawn: yeah, time stamps on comments would be very cool. Generally I find a conversation on FriendFeed can go on for about a day. Same with this one. it's pretty much died out, even though a few interesting comments have trickled in today.
- Robert Scoble
Then FF will never go mainstream. "Non-passionates" don't want to have to be plugged in 24/7 in order to be able to participate. Thanks for the clarification.
- Dawn
I'm actually doing a three-post series on how the internet has changed the economics behind the publishing business this week on Eat Sleep Publish. I'm also doing an event (a mini mini version of what Robert suggested above) in Seattle this Septermber to get smart ppl together to round-table about what the business model is. Robert - you going to be in town?
- Jason Preston
All I can say is - I hope newspapers will not go away - since I enjoy the print medium and the ability to carry my paper without having to plug it in every time. One of the reasons why i pay for my Economist is the convenience of having it, rolling it up and enjoying it without having to wait for XP or MaxOS to boot and show it. And even with always-on OSes (like Palm and iPhone), still enjoy the feel of paper.
- Sanford
Further to my comment about Robert Shiller and the role of the press in positive and negative feedback loops, a full review of the book is here http://bit.ly/1IFiZb, with further links out.
- Tim Penn
Question: WHY do we want to save journalism in the first place? Why not let it die its own death like fax machines and pagers.
- Mukund
In the UK we have something that will buck the trend: the BBC. It's funded by a "licence fee', which you have to own BY LAW to have a television in your house. I.e. If you don't have a licence, you're busted. Sure, the BBC has to justify the fee annually, but the UK population seems, on the whole, happy with what it gets: unique, high quality local and national TV, Radio and web uninterrupted by advertisers. A place where in depth "Because it's important" type journalism may still be able to flourish?
- Tom Beardshaw
First, get the facts on ad revenue for newspapers. Yes, ad revenue is shrinking for papers and they have had to shed bureaus and reporters. But they still get more money for their paper ads than their online ads. And they aren't standing still, they are evolving as well, the pressure of all the blogs and podcasters has forced all the major news sites to completely transform with all kinds of user-friendly features. And you still find the Murdochs of the world buying papers. This story is far from over yet.
- Prokofy Neva
I cover Bakersfield City Hall. It is not big and glamorous enough for these national-oriented projects like ProPublica. Yet I doubt I could be funded by donations because the crowd who would donate is similar to the crowd that runs for office -- politically slanted. I could get funding from one of the conservative camps by being sympathetic to them. But how does that serve the community?
- James Geluso
The REAL problem is there really isn't much "legitmate" journalism out there anymore anyway. As a former reporter, what newgatherers are putting out there for average citizens day in and day out is absolutely pathetic and, many times, inaccurate. With reporters having to do more with less, the problem continues to grow. Advertisers should "buy" with more caution than ever...or not at all!!!
- Jennifer Windrum
Newspapers as we know them are doomed because they're no longer a sustainable product in the era of the internet. The question is why should the whole industry (journalism/publishing) die because of the medium (paper). They must figure out a way to become profitable through the new medium (the internet). I think The Wall Street Journal has the right formula. Not so much the The New York Times.
- moncef b
Mark Cuban was onto something with sharesleuth: http://sharesleuth.com/about.... The company funds good investigative journalism by trading on the information in the financial markets first, publishing second. Barring that, I believe it may be time for public journalism as ~C4Chaos argues. If people really want good journalism, they should be willing to pay for it.
- David Pennock
Is there a way to sms friendfeed directly?
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- Dave Winer
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