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Xee Momma › Likes
BBC News Video’s are Now Officially Embeddable - http://thenextweb.com/2009...
Kol Tregaskes, Business Blogger【ツ】™, Xee Momma and 3 other people liked this
User data ownership on Facebook and why it doesn’t matter - http://scobleizer.com/2009...
Xiangzhen, Kevin Murray, Shivanand Velmurugan and 95 other people liked this
I'm glad to see Robert back to long-form, insightful blog posts, rather than getting distracted by twitter and friend feed.
- Steven (optionshiftk)
You do realise that they extend their license to stuff you link to right? They can subicence as steve points out to their hearts content and you lose the value of your own content. I agree with your blogs sarcastic point about serving facebook. I made a similar one myself.
- Anton Mannering
from twhirl
I took a different angle on this too. I'm less worried about the things I know, and more worried about what we do not know. In essence we transfer all control to Facebook, but they are not transparent about what they actually do with our data. We don't know if we are signing up for the next best thing or selling our soul to the devil. Mark is answering the wrong question and we fell for it again: http://bit.ly/19GmYF
- Alexander van Elsas
BTW here is an excellent writeup of Amanda French comparing TOSes of different sites like Facebook, Myspace, Flickr, Youtube. Moral of the story? The uproar is justified: http://bit.ly/tJJBK
- Alexander van Elsas
As a person who builds very consumer facing products and features I believe it DOES matter. With power (175 millions users) comes responsibility. FB has an obligation to transparency regardless of whether there service is free, and it's TOU is one piece of that transparency. If you claim one thing and do another, or you claim one thing and then claim another thing because your business is changing, that matters...
- Ryan
Who uses FB to publish original works? Promotion yea. But don't people who have something to protect get their ©, ®, ™ before putting it out there and then just link to it from the various mediums?
- Ryan Stanley
Just read Alexander van Elsas post. We should be discussing this on his FF feed. Great post and insightful analysis. Glad to see someone actually read and posted the TOU.
- Ryan
@Ryan, @Jason, thanks guys! You're welcome to discuss it on my FF feed, it's here: http://friendfeed.com/e... , but here is fine too ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Robert and Alexander, I have to agree with Robert. As I mentioned to you, Alexander, if you go to any institution implementing a GLS or CMS, you pretty much have to play by their rules and (having learned by painful experience) your data is not necessarily treated as if you are an esteemed author who could sue THEM for plagiarism. ;) That's as Robert says, reality. So I agree with his response.
- Melanie Reed
In the early days, I treated my portfolio as a catchall for everything. I went with the bait. But having learned who really has the most "rights" to it and then with their upgrade, having seen all my legacy RSS link and bookmarks destroyed I was forced into the realm of Robert's reality. Facebook, Flickr, etc are going to do what they are going to do. Now, I can adopt a strategy that serves my needs out of that....or not. I'm learning as I go.
- Melanie Reed
@melanie the most important issue is the lack of transparency. We are forced to give up everything while they do not. It is not an equal balance. Saying that that is just the way it is is accepting a bad practice that could easily be replaced by a good one.
- Alexander van Elsas
@Alexander I agree that lack of transparency is the important issue. Now whether I like it or not I have to try to understand the other party here. I can see (but not like) the effectiveness of the ad targeting FB uses. How pivotal is that to FB's revenue? Seriously, would any of us say 'yes' willingly to allowing ANY of our demographic information to be used by Ad customers?
- Melanie Reed
@Ryan, Your copyright is still valid and is not changed by Facebook's TOS. It you read their TOS carefully, you will find that by posting or sharing your content on FB, you are granting them an unlimited license to do whatever they want with your content. You still own the copyright, but it's value might be greatly lessened by allowing FB unimited usage rights.
- Jeff P. Henderson
What if I'm a unsigned and indie band that uses Facebook to promote our music in a group or fan page. Does the TOS give FB the right to "use, copy, publish, stream, store, retain, publicly perform or display, transmit, scan, reformat, modify, edit, frame, translate, excerpt, adapt, create derivative works and distribute" those works for commercial purpose?
- Matt Albiniak
@Alexander This brings up how business on the Internet is done. How do we want that done? How do we want businesses to conduct their research on target audiences? What should they know before hand in order to market to us? How do you want them to do that? I'm not fighting for their "rights" so much as I am asking that the methodology of what is acceptable marketing practice (that will be effective) is defined. BTW- I have a stake in this as our org has copyrighted material up on FB, too.
- Melanie Reed
@Matt, Based on my interpretation of the TOS, I would say probably yes.
- Jeff P. Henderson
@melanie my simple answer would be to choose a business model that monetizes user value. It would force you to do the right thing, always. Check out smugmug as a very positive example. They do not just have paying customers, they have paying fans!
- Alexander van Elsas
@Alexander If I understand you, that would indeed cause a problem that many are trying to avoid: disenfranchisement in the digital world. Not everyone is capable of paying. So as I understand it, thus the two-tiered system as Flickr does with their pro accounts and the free. So how do we address that?
- Melanie Reed
"Zuckerberg is saying: "We're not evil. Just trust us!" But this has been the mantra of nearly all companies that handle personal information. What company would say: "Yes, we intend to use your data maliciously and in ways you'll abhor"? There are many problems with Facebook's policy of 'trust us'" http://www.concurringopinions.com/archive... Solove, as always, gives an excellent analysis of the pitfalls.
- LogEx
@melanie, you do not have choose a model in which every user has to pay to receive value (although that is the cleanest model there is). freemium is definitely a great model too. Provide a service for free and extra's as a premium. Either way. A user centric model will ensure you give more value to the user than to anything else.
- Alexander van Elsas
@logical extremes, I recall banks and insurance comapnies saying the same things and look where that got us ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
@Alexander, exactly. Facebook should either drop the pretense, or adjust the TOU to describe exactly what they intend.
- LogEx
Matt, Melanie, etc...I'd definitely suggest you take 5 or 10 minutes, and go read the earlier mentioned comparison by Amanda French http://bit.ly/tJJBK . The differences between what MySpace, for example, asserts as a right over your data, and what Facebook does, are both real and relevant to any creative type. Amanda has ferreted out the relevant sections of the license terms for multiple sites, and compares and contrasts well.
- Ken Kennedy
Scoble's missed the boat, same as Chris Brogan. Facebook (and LinkedIn) has Terms that are NOT the same as everyone else's, and which, unlike MySpace, Flickr, YouTube, Picasa and Twitter, do NOT permit you to revoke their license to use your content. I dove into the legal issues here: http://is.gd/jJXy
- Maxwell Kennerly
Article on the new Facebook TOS changes and protecting yourself http://tinyurl.com/d4oeps
- Chris Miller
from twhirl
@Ken, thank you for replying and @Alexander, thank you as well! Ken, I did read Amanda's post. And, with respect to you and others, I still agree with both Robert and Matt. And in regard to MySpace, they are the ones who allowed access to everyone's private data to the search engine Spock. That's why I don't use MySpace or Spock among other reasons.
- Melanie Reed
the point is if you upload it to facebook and decide later you want it deleted, and it's not deleted then....well it's nice to want things. I don't think this justifies the uproar, only that people should (have already been) thinking twice about what they put on those sites. It may, and probably won't, ever really go away once it's out there.
- Richard Lawler
Really good side by side comparison here- http://amandafrench.net/2009...
- Ryan
@Melanie ... no worries! As long as you've got the data, you're more than entitled to make your own decision. If I were you, I'd keep stuff I want to monetize off of FB, though...you really have no control once you've uploaded it there. It's a walled garden that FB can cash in on as they will. (note: I expect this will get restated before too long...this is too big a grab even for FB, but as of now, that's how it works out).
- Ken Kennedy
@Ken, Interesting that you said that just now as there was a Facebook Ad, (company unknown as I didn't clickthru-that's one less cpv they'll have to pay for) that popped up on my right in Profile view that claimed "Monetize User Content" -"Grab content off your site from users and put it on T-shirts." roflol. This does provide some humorous aspect to me especially when you consider, I could get our ministry content out to a greater territory. ;)
- Melanie Reed
GOLDEN Rule: Don't put anything on any site/form/webpage that you may change your mind about. Once it's out there it will never disappear. imho
- walterh
@walterh, I hear what you're saying, and I definitely grok the spew of 'information wants to be free' (FTW!), but that's not really what's critical here. This is "boring" legal stuff...regardless of whether or not the data is available in some cache somewhere (which it is), this is FB asserting the right to use whatever you upload for it's own commercial purposes, forever. That's a whole different issue that "it never gets deleted anyway".
- Ken Kennedy
@ken I am not really trying to argue your points. I was trying to say that all forms like FB will at sometime try to sell your info when they reach a critical mass. A perfect example of this is the phone scam going on right now were people call you telling you that your car warranty will end soon. These people are calling me on my cell phone. I only give my cell to trusted contacts as it is the only real way to get a hold of me in real time. That so-called trusted contact or service has sold my info.
- walterh
@ken .....if you don't put personal info out on FB then when this happens you will not be regretting what you have done or posted.
- walterh
@walterh Just FYI, the car warranty thing isn't a sold data issue...it's just a "brute force" attack on phone #s (ie, they call them all). It's gotten so cheap to make phone calls, even LD, that much like email spam, the minuscule response rate they get pays for it. As for personal data on FB, again, I understand that, but it's not really what we're talking about. Consider a band that wants to share their music, but not intending to let FB monetize it if they get popular. They're out of luck.
- Ken Kennedy
So the expiry clause was in there when I signed up (i.e. if I leave they lose their rights over my content). If they have now changed the terms but I've not agreed to the new terms, then I'm not bound by them, right? Or did I miss a "we can change the terms whenever we feel like it and you're still bound to them" clause?
- Yan
@ken I understand your point. Let me ask you this. Has a case like this gone to court yet. PS the warranty people have never called me at home. Had that number for 20 years. Every other sale company calls me at home. I do see your point that it could be "brute force"
- walterh
The blog post has merit, the headline, not so much.
- jcunwired
I basically agree with Robert that this isn't shocking since Facebook hasn't respected user's much; however, I do think ascerting ownership to data already in the system crosses the line. This is similar to the Google Reader shared feed issue that Steve Gillmor railed on for a while.
- Robert W. Anderson
yeah, he reels em in with the hyperbole
- Josh Haley
hyperbole Josh? yeah that Bill of Rights crap is overrated. BTW Google fixed that problem.
- Steve Gillmor
Beyond the argument over who owns what and who's creating value for whom is a more interesting question, I think. Most people will not give a second thought to their rights to the intellectual property they create on Facebook. They just use it. They upload photos and videos and talk to each other. It strikes me that one thing Facebook is remarkably good at is capturing a user's...
more...
- David Erickson
hmmmm ... fascinating and important points being made here. However we are at the core talking about the morality and selflessness of corporations. The only way to own your own data completely is keep on your hard drive. Look at the terabytes of data Magnolia unfortunately lost last week. Their intentions were entirely altruistic, yet a technical malfunction intervened. We are in the midst of a radical shift and "ownership" is going to be defined by security, trust, and new elements ...
- Bankwatch
... that have yet to be defined. Do you trust Google? Do you trust your bank? Do you trust gmail Apps Premium? These are fundamental questions and the answer will define internet and our future. Market forces will take care of it, but getting there might be ugly.
- Bankwatch
It is a cheap and risk free business model for the service provider: The user generates all the content, is responsible for all legal consequences (even when the provider reuses the content in an unanticipated way), but the service provider may make all the profit out of it. whereever, forever. This business model was once called Web 2.0...
- Arnd Gronenberg
you're right. facebook should be used as a hub, flickr gives you CC options, it's not hard to set up a wordpress blog for the same, i think youtube are the last in the list. there's plenty of apps on facebook that will update your profile when you upload photos to flickr, or make a new blog post. they're not perfect but they're getting better.
- Terry O'Fee
They changed their mind: http://blog.facebook.com/
- Liron Eizenman
Most people wun care too much. But yes i agree it's creepy.
- Alekkus
Well, then there's the 25 Things you didn't know about in the Facebook TOS: http://bit.ly/25thingsTOS
- Steve Woodruff
To me it clear from Mark Z's post that the lawyers were tasked with drafting a revised TOU and blew it. ROLLBACK!
- Ryan
doesn't say much for their lawyers on the writing and the way the TOS was handled...
- Stuart Evans
from twhirl
This is the new age of transparency. The big CEOs will have publicly available pictures of them from college. Professional images will become humanized. Social media has allowed us to share everything about our lives and so we did. I thought Mark made a great point in his first post regarding the issue when he explained that in order to give the community the services that they want, certain legalities are necessary and must be represented in the TOS. We just have to get used to the new age.
- David Spinks
@David, if Facebook, and Mark Zuckerberg too for that matter, are just as transparent as they force you to be then it would be fine. Until that moment it is pretty ridiculous that privacy only works one way. You must disclose everything and they take it all without providing the slightest clue what they actually do with it
- Alexander van Elsas
I wish someone would analyze TOS that bank credit cards, mortgages impose. The funny thing is that while Facebook is having to backtrack - it probably never would have screwed us over - but banks that increase rates from 3.9% to 39% over night - regularly do.
- Anshu Sharma
Good post, Robert. It's always been clear that Facebook has put their own interest in content assets first, but in fairness it's not so different that way than say...Friendfeed. One does pay a certain price for posting in Facebook, but to reach those who are more interested in relationships than in marketing their content, it's a good price oftentimes. I do think that over the next year that more publisher-friendly terms will come to Facebook, they've been lazy and now they'll have to catch up.
- John Blossom
5 Speedy Tips For Faster Browsing In Firefox #firefox - http://www.makeuseof.com/tag...
Kol Tregaskes, Sarah Perez, Tina K.J and 2 other people liked this
"If you’ve ever used Firefox you’ll appreciate the fact that it’s incredibly easy to use and intuitive right out of the box. This is perhaps one of the key reasons why it now owns 21.5% of the worldwide browser market share, and Internet Explorer is having its worst month yet."
- Seth Greenblatt
from Bookmarklet
How to Sync Facebook Events with Google Calendar - http://www.insidefacebook.com/2009...
John Field, Arvind, Brad Kligerman and 18 other people liked this
Can't there just be an automated (i.e. one-time setup for this?)
- Conor Ogle
Wow! was just wanting to do this last night! Sweet! and thanks!
- Melanie Reed
only seems to work with public events. hidden or private events don't show the event title, only "busy". not very helpful.
- flaimo
You can do the same thing with Upcoming.org, by the way.
- Robert Scoble
Josh: yeah, if you want something to be private Facebook is probably best. But there's a lot of social network gatherings on Upcoming.org too.
- Robert Scoble
It's working well for me. Tried it now, need to see if goosync would allow me to sync with the N95 though.
- Richard A.
you can sync to any calendar: Outlook/the Mac one/Sundbird/Blackberry...
- sofarsoShawn
This is a good post on syncing events from Facebook. I've been using this method for a while and find it useful to read all the possible events I need or want to attend. I then use Google Sync on the Blackberry to have my info on the go!
- Nakeva Corothers
By the way, my Upcoming Event Calendar is here so you can see the kinds of geeky events that are on Upcoming.org: http://upcoming.yahoo.com/user... (I have a ton of events on my calendar all over the world).
- Robert Scoble
I guess I was looking for an automated way to link any Event I agree to attend in Facebook directly into Google Calendar.
- Conor Ogle
I've never seen upcoming before i do dopplr; are you scheduled to be n Dubai next week? We can party!
- sofarsoShawn
Google Docs adds spreadsheet editing on the iPhone - http://www.tuaw.com/2009...
Daniel Rowley, Adnan, Jim Connolly and 4 other people liked this
Morten Jokumsen, Kevin Mohr, Kevin Gamble and 33 other people liked this
I dig the idea of tagging, but wouldn't it work just as well if people add hashes as comments? That way everyone can categorise.
- Vincent van Wylick
Didn't know we could! Will do from now on if I post any.
- Simon Wicks
What's the point of using hashtags on FF? Is there some site/tool that does something with them?
- Michael R. Bernstein
You can edit titles on FriendFeed? I can't. :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
you can edit titles of your own entries, i can assure you :)
- Zio Bonino
Not me. :-( Do you mean after posting?
- Kol Tregaskes
Vincent, it's a fair point but the hash tags are not only helpful for searching but also when just browsing this page. Although of course, you could just search - but i find friendfeed search is not reliable atm
- Zee.
@Kol If you click on the 'More' link directly under your own title it should give you a n 'Edit Entry' link in the drop-down menu. Do you not see that?
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
Kol, it's under the "More" button of your own posts.
- Zio Bonino
Doh, gotcha. Thanks guys! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Ok, am still not getting why? Is it to make a context tag from where we post? why is that good again?
- Peter Efland
What do you think of a username tag: #u:micahwittman (hash+u+colon+nickname)? The reason being google indexes the FF Name but not Nickname. Post on this: http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Micah Wittman
ok, zee, thanks for the explanation. Guess since i am always on #web then I dont see the idea of why it would be important to search for aps. Micah Wittman, thats an interesting idea with the username tag
- Peter Efland
Thanks Peter. My thinking is the only way a #u:nickname tag would be redundant is if the FF service is changed to always display Name AND Nickname. Come to think of it, FF should consider making "MY COMMENT BLAH BLAH BLAH - Name (Nickname)" when viewing *not* logged-in which would be the case for search engines. They could even sniff the user-agent header to really optimize it for the google crawler and whomever the next big search engine is.
- Micah Wittman
to be honest, if search is unreliable, as you say, I don't see myself using tags at all. The only reason I use it in places like delicious, is the rss-feeds, I can get of it. And in blogging, because of technorati-hits. I don't actually go through past content and specifically look for tags, my brain pretty much gets what something does from reading the title / description.
- Vincent van Wylick
you do a really good job with this room, zee. thank you. :)
- edythe
Zee, before or after the title?
- Sasha Kovaliov(.com)
ideally after, but no biggie :)
- Zee.
i whole heartedly support the idea of posting taxonomy but using hashtag is, ermm, typographically ugly. What about parenthesis or brackets or even curly braces with tags in them and at the end of the post title? e.g.: Pain free video conferences at Tokbox.com [Web] --- Act without doing: Quicksilver (Mac) --- Open source multi archive manager 7-zip {Win} --- Java 1.6 from Sub [All Platforms]...
- Berk D. Demir
i'm up for anything, i just wanted to find something everyone could type fast and recognise
- Zee.
Mona uses [square brackets] in the Goodies Room http://friendfeed.com/rooms... I think it looks pretty good. Don't know if it helps with searchability. I guess it will if people are consistent [Win] not [Windows] etc.
- Laura Norvig
Bump
- Russellreno
thanks Russell :)
- Zee.
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