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Chrome OS will help kill Silverlight and other non-open tech, preventing msft and others from recapturing the web. (though I expect that it will support Flash by necessity)

July 7 - Comment - Like - Share

ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,, Charles Frith, Vladimir Yashnikov and 149 other people liked this

Good point. - Robert Scoble

123 more comments

I hope it doesn't. After all we need good media delivery platforms. - Swaroop

Including GNASH - the open source alternative - would solve that problem - Bogdan Costea

yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it. - Zio Bonino

Chrome OS might be a compelling case for SVG/<canvas> + <audio> tag replacements for flash. Dunno what SVG's perf is like on WebKit tho. - Matt Mastracci

Microsoft will port it. It's all about codecs & DRM. Ogg Theora isn't all that great. - Rodfather

Is that Steve Jobs disguised as Zio ? - Swaroop

@Swaroop Yes, we do. Like HTML5. - Benjamin Dobson

@Swaroop eh eh, I've got flash disabled on all my systems :) - Zio Bonino

@Benjamin I'd prefer HTML web apps over native apps anyday. But it'll take time for it to mature - Swaroop

Rodfather, I don't think that will be an option for msft :). If Chrome is built the way I would do it, there is no installation per-se -- everything runs in the browser and the config in stored in the cloud (and cached locally). The computer is a pure appliance. - Paul Buchheit

@Zio You're the real Steve Jobs - Swaroop

Microsoft moves much too slow to force new standards these days. - Louis Gray

@Louis: IE8 flunking ACID test :) - Swaroop

What about more standard codecs like h.264? That isn't open and is in hardware already. - Rodfather

h.264 is established and must be in there, but it's not a platform like Silverlight is. - Paul Buchheit

I know some of the guys behind silverlight. It is some great technology. Too bad it's from Microsoft and is closed. - Joe Beda () from iPhone

A world with no Flash and Silverlight. I can't wait. - Paul Grav

Yeah, it's too bad they didn't open-source it. This stuff with Mono is silly -- if you want to make a real standard you need to make the real implementation be open. - Paul Buchheit

MS are about 10 years too late with Silverlight. And they'll most likely be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting HTML5. - Paul Grav

Zio sez (hopefully humorously): "yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it" -- have you ever watched a single YouTube video in your life? Like seventeen gazillion other people across the wired world. yeah, you're right, nobody needs Flash. ha! - .LAG liked that

Remember Dave Clark in 1992, "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code." - Guy Vander Heyden

.LAG: most YouTube videos are playable without Flash now. My iPhone plays most of them and it doesn't have Flash. Certainly by the time the Google OS came out YouTube would be converted completely to non-Flash capability. - Robert Scoble

Robert: The youtube flash application helps read the flv files on Youtube's servers and provides a UI (decoder too). - Swaroop

Even Google admits they're not sure I'd bit for bit html5 video is less bandwitj consuming than flash. And flash isn't just media delivery, also interesting games and apps like tonepad, splicemusic.com's online sequencer, etc (I'm musically inclined, so most of my examples will be along that line) and please don't suggest we redo it all in java - Ed F from Nambu

Does this mean the next Silverlight release is codename Seppuku? - Jay Cuthrell

Maybe we'll see commercials encoded in movies if everything is open. - Rodfather

Flash is too established to kill off right now, so I'd be surprised if Chrome didn't include flash support. It will take many years to get rid of that thing. First they need to fix the standard browser to not be so broken (lack of video, multi-file upload, etc), then they need everyone to switch to the new html5 solutions. - Paul Buchheit

Scoble ...that may be true, and YouTube plays on my Pre without Flash (yet)...but that doesn't mean that "nobody needs Flash." really? what would replace it? - .LAG liked that

So Google's NaCl http://code.google.com/p... (now integrated within Chrome/Chromium) was just a temporary workaround, right? - Jérôme Flipo

Use HTML 5 instead! - Minh Bui

Is it just me or does Native Client (NaCl) remind you of the Microsoft Active X approach? - Daniel Chow

But who prevents Google from taking over the net? - Andreas

youtube videos play on iPhone/iPod Touch as they are higher res mp4 files NOT flv files. It was a big deal when Steve negotiated that deal with youtube. - vijay

You have Moonlight to run Silverlight applications in Linux. Not perfect, but then an application made on Silverlight is "not perfect" by definition - Marcos Marado

The point here is that Google has no motivation to include Silverlight on these machines, and installing software likely won't be an option (it's a web appliance), so it will be absent from a lot of netbooks, just as it is absent from iPhones. That cuts into market share, which is a bad thing for a platform that is trying to compete with more universal tech like Flash and HTML.... more... - Paul Buchheit

@DanielChow: NaCl has very little overlap with ActiveX, apart from running native code. It runs in a provably safe way, and explicitly does *not* allow it to access arbitrary host APIs. But it can be quite useful when you need to run code that would be too slow in Javascript (even on v8): e.g., heavy encryption/decryption, possibly codecs, definitely game physics, and so forth. - Joel Webber

There is a time and a place for Flash and Silverlight so I hope it will run it. There are simply some things you can do which aren't possible, or practical in html/css/javascript. - Steve Temple

Paul: why wouldn't Chrome OS come with Moonlight? And if not, why wouldn't you be able to just install it? And third, why the hell would people want Moonlight for? I never installed it and not even once felt the need to! - Marcos Marado from fftogo

because of moonlight http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlig... the potential userbase of silverlight is greatly improved, agree that projects which don't consider compatibility are limiting their potential - Mike Chelen

@mindboosternoori Ryanair site uses silverlight: http://www.ryanair.com/site... that's the only website I know that uses it - for this you would need moonlight :) - Ihar Mahaniok

Flash is needed for the google os to be useful in education. Many education based websites are flash based. - Willowdale

@Paul "Google is probably paying OEMs to ship with this OS, so instead of paying $x/machine to include windows XP, they will get paid $y/machine to include Chrome." - paying present tense, already? Isn't it enough for OEMs not to have to pay hefty licenses to Redmond, etc., while being able to ship with a free, stable OS+browser combo; they need to be paid to do that as well? - ianf ⌘

I sure hope so. I think the wide array of JavaScript libraries have been killing Flash for years. Silverlight was never really a player. The only think keeping Flash afloat is video - Scott Radcliff

I don't know what's under the hood of Silverlight (nobody knows), but Flash is basically a sprite engine controlled by Actionscript, which is basically an adapted version of Javascript anyway. It's nicely packaged though, and has an army of developers, so it won't go away that easily, at least not until there are Flash-to-Canvas/ HTML5 porting tools/ translators and the like. - ianf ⌘

to follow that logic...photoshop is needed as well - Chris Hofmann

somebody call me when http://playboyarchive.com is working in Chrome OS (it's currently implemented in Silverlight) - Karim

If it gains any traction at all, MS will just make Silverlight version that will run on Google OS. Sure google could block it, but they haven't done so with the Chrome browser. - Jeff Weber

Interesting. I doubt the Google OS will get that big anytime soon though. - Scott Radcliff from email

Silverlight doesn't have a chance now...I wonder what would Adobe Air do. - Saad Kamal

not really, if google want to be open then they will need a plugin architecture for it and then MS could just port for it. I really don't see this troubling mainstream users any time soon. - Darren Stuart

Though I agree with the view that MS monopoly may erode as alternative devices get adoption over PC/Notebook, and these devices will mostly run on open source OS, but it may take years to create a significant change in every day usage of normal users. In the end, OS choice is mostly done by manufacturers, and they would be happy to get paid by open source vendors for putting their OS on... more... - Kaan Bingol

People want media. Hulu, Netflix, Kindle, iTunes, etc. They need to address that or they are DOA. - Hayes Haugen

Hayes, what makes you think it will lack media support? - Paul Buchheit

I don't think it will lack licensed media support but what deals they are able to make will be crucial. - Hayes Haugen

Hayes, i thought you were going to say that Netflix was using Silverlight. ;-) - Karim

Yes, they are, what is their deal with MSFT? Can they do non Silverlight distribution? - Hayes Haugen

i believe the Netflix non-Silverlight distribution is a format called "DVD" that works over the "Snail Mail" protocol. ;-) but clearly if Google is paying OEMs to install Chrome OS, they can pay Netflix to go back to Flash which Chrome OS will probably support "by necessity" ;-) - Karim

How can Google make money from Chrome OS? Or does it want to make money from it except through advertisement? I still can not imagine that all software and service are free and sponsored by advertisements. - Derek Wei

All Chrome OS questions are answered by today's Fake Steve Jobs ;) - Hayes Haugen

Is there a need to make money? If more and more people eschew desktop offline applications in favor of online web based apps, it means more pageviews, more eyeballs, more advertising inventory, plus has the side effect of undermining a big competitor's cash cow. - Ray Cromwell

That's the key, Google wants everything online. They figure the more people online, the stronger they become, and the more money they make. At least that what was said at the Chrome launch. - Scott Radcliff from email

I'm amused that the "backwards compatibility" argument against alternative operating systems has slowly turned into "does it support flash", and when you unpack that it really means "does it play YouTube". I suspect Google will make sure ChromeOS cna play YouTube and they don't need Flash to make sure of it. - Nick Lothian

Is it possible that Microsoft will write Office for the Web using Volta instead of Silverlight? Could be a showcase announcement for their attack on GWT - Ray Cromwell

I think Microsoft is going to focus less on the front-end of the web and more on the back-end, middle tier and database sides. Azure is a big deal that consumers aren't talking about because it's not flashy but will be pretty important to developers (and especially enterprise-level applications) when it's finally ready because everything becomes an interface to the cloud. Microsoft is... more... - Lindsay

Azure looks really cool. Hint: so did Blackbird. - Michael R. Bernstein

lol blackbird (scary redmond flashback) - a good example of azure platform utilization can be seen via jon udell's elmcity project - http://blog.jonudell.net/elmcity... - mike "glemak" dunn

Nosense, I want silverlight, flash, html and any other technology in my desktop & mobile phone. Silverlight? yes, there you can develop under Python, Ruby et al, instead of the outdated javascript. - Sebastian Wain

It looks like with Native Client, you should be able to write your Chrome OS app in any language you feel like. So far, they have some examples in C/C++, but one of the things they ported is a Lua interpreter. If Adobe isn't going to invest heavily in fixing the show-stopping bugs on non-Windows versions of Flash, it's inevitably going to die, and there's really nothing either Google or Apple can do even if they wanted to support Flash better. - Victor Ganata

...ActionScript3 is ECMASCript-compliant. I know nothing about standards bodies, and shii like that, but what if Adobe dropped ActionScript and said, "You can now use pure Javascript to build Flash applications..." It wouldn't be a big leap. I'm pretty sure that would shut-up all the Flash haters. And to the folks who say Flash is hanging around just because of video...well, video is... more... - .LAG liked that

Actionscript is just the glue for the more advanced what-iffy graphic functionality of Flash. They can not drop it for Javascript, because it contains additional graphic primitives that JS lacks. But it's not the JS-or-Actionscript that makes it a target for hate, it's other things. Nobody denies that it's pretty capable, but it is also badly written, eats up memory like no other, makes... more... - ianf ⌘

I like this post! - Mohammad Abdurraafay from iPhone

I honestly don't know how necessary Flash is. Apple seems to be doing fine without supporting it. But certainly Gnash and Swfdec should be implementable on Chrome OS. The fact is that without Adobe's full support on a given platform, Flash apps will always be second class citizens on alternate platforms, and so far, there's no indication that Adobe is interested in fully supporting any platform other than Windows. - Victor Ganata

ianf ...you bring up great points about Flash's detriments, as does Victor, but until there's a better way to bring video to the Web, I can't see it disappearing. Adobe seems to keep improving the Flash VM, hopefully they'll address those CPU-hogging issues and make a more efficent runtime. Yeah, I hate hearing the fans kick-in when visiting a Flash-heavy site too. <sigh> - .LAG liked that

alternative to flash video such as ... html5 :) (requires ff3.5) http://www.dailymotion.com/openvid... - Mike Chelen from IM

that only covers video and audio... *sigh* - Ed F from IM

Ed, only??? thats one of the main reasons cited for the continued requirement of flash on popular sites like youtube - Mike Chelen

I know, and it seems I'm the only one who mentions Flash's other uses... :-/ - Ed F from IM

Ed, those other uses can be accomplished through pure Javascript, video was the last remaining stumbling block - Mike Chelen

Still waiting on non-Flash recreations of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... Well aware of how someone mentioned higher up how you can combine javascript and svg to get nifty flash-like effects. I want apps like that though ^ Only real alternatives I've seen are Java-based ones, and those runs even slower than Flash. - Ed F

Pardon me, but the OP is a ridiculous conclusion. For that to be the case, Chrome OS would have to kill Windows, OS X, etc altogether. Paul, I understand your viewpoint as being an ex-Google person, but that's just NOT going to happen. Right now the video specification from HTML5 has been dropped because of an impasse, meaning that we may be transitioning from 1 closed-source boss - Flash - to another - H264. Good luck. - LANjackal

But why do these type of apps have to be written in Flash at all? You can easily do the same thing in C, C++, ObjC, Python, Ruby, etc., with the Native Client API that they're building for Chrome. http://code.google.com/p... - Victor Ganata

write them yourself then. until then, I'll stick with desktop apps or Flash equivalents - Ed F from IM

I'm just saying, it's not like Flash is the end-all/be-all. As Apple well demonstrates, some people can live quite well without it. - Victor Ganata

Victor ...i think the answer to the 'why do these have to be written in Flash at all' question is because Flash is installed on such a significant portion of Web browsers. But I recall that Adobe Flex had a competitor, Laszlo/OpenLaszlo, which compiled apps to SWF or to Javascript. Who's to say that Adobe doesn't have the same capability of making SWF apps into JS ones? On one hand, it... more... - .LAG liked that

Ed, such apps are possible with Javascript and HTML5 multimedia features, the question will be how difficult developers find it, and whether the performance is fast enough - Mike Chelen

LANjackal, there is a question of degree in that Flash + H264 uses proprietary software and codec, while HTML5 + H264 requires only the codec. while OGV is no longer part of the spec, it can certainly still be used to have completely open video formats, and recent comparisons have shown it performs well http://people.xiph.org/~maikme... - Mike Chelen

Silverlight's 3 is looking pretty impressive today but tend to agree - Charlie Anzman

still haven't updated yet. Busy with something on Firefox - LANjackal from IM

What everybody seems to be missing about Flash is that it works because there is one implementation which is mostly backwards-compatible and the same across platforms. It beat Java because, among other reasons, Java just didn't work the same across JVMs and platforms. The problem with HTML5 is that it will have a different implementation for every browser, and that means your app/game... more... - Gabe

Yeah the video spec for HTML5 is currently a disaster - LANjackal from IM

Paul, don't you prefer brutal competition SL vs. Flash vs. standards bring to the table by definition? Or are you more into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - 2020 Google Union - type of ideology? - Kari Honkanen

Kari, I don't understand your question. Competition is good, but with open-source we get that -- no need for flash or SL. - Paul Buchheit

Paul, no, we don't get the same level of competition with open-source only. As long as there's an opportunity for big gains (like in this case to bridge the gap before html 5 era...to satisfy demand), there will be innovations driven by that. I believe we all benefit from a free market economy that includes commercial, closed source, innovations. I am more scared of the possible future... more... - Kari Honkanen

I agree that the future is neither open nor closed, but a mixture of the 2. Been preaching that for a while now, but then again there are the fanatics on either side who can't see anything other than a homogenous future - LANjackal from IM

I wouldn't worry too much amount multimedia. By exposing WebGL, (and hopefully OpenCL), you can offload a lot of compute intensive stuff onto the GPU via GPGPU techniques, and NativeClient is there to take up the rest of the slack, but the for the vast majority of iPhone-like games, I'm willing to bet V8 Javascript on a modern processor is more than enough. That leaves licensing issues... more... - Ray Cromwell

Paul, so are you saying that Google will block both Flash and Silverlight from ChromeOS? That's a new take on 'open.' - Cliff Gerrish

MSFT next smart move: get Chrome OS (it's BSD licensed), inject IE9 and Silverlight into it and go benchmark against Chrome :) - Claudio Cicali ♋

MSFT sucks Claudio :) - Orlando Pozo

@caludio: They've already done that, somewhat. Silverlight 4 Beta supports Chrome. However I'm pretty sure it's probably technically impractical to run another browser atop Chrome OS anyway - LANjackal from IM

Something feels contradictory about a system touted to 'kill' competitors being 'open'. Sounds almost predatory to me. - Karoli

If the concept of open source didn't allow for competitive business plans then quite a few companies that depend on it wouldn't exist. The "happy smiley" image most FOSS zealots promote isn't reflective of reality. There will always be competition, even among the free - LANjackal from IM

I'm not opposed to non-open software, but for OS, browser, etc I prefer that it be open. Cliff, Google isn't going to "block" anything, but they can certainly choose what to include, and my guess is that they won't include SL. As Claudio points out, MSFT can make their own version of ChromeOS that includes SL, which is why open source software is nice (it can't be crippled too much or else someone will fork it). - Paul Buchheit

I have heard somewhere that Fash uses it's own port where Silverlight works over the HTTP port. That's why Netflix works so well. To that, Flash costs more on a sever side because providers can charge more for that port traffic. Could it come down to who is cheaper? (I am fully prepared to be wrong). - Johnny Worthington

Johnny, they both use HTTP -- there's no difference there. - Paul Buchheit

Is Chrome OS BSD-licensed? I thought it was using a Linux kernel. - Victor Ganata

@Paul - well, Flash can do P2P stuff over non-HTTP posts, but that is very new (Flash 10 I think). The cost isn't affected anyway. - Nick Lothian

My understanding is that netbooks would have to be absurdly popular for Chrome OS to make a dent in the popularity of Flash or SL. - Gabe

not rly, the defeat of Flash & SL depends on the rise of HTML5, which will b supported by multiple browsers. Unfortunately spec disagreements r holding that up. That's another advantage of closed systems : fewer cooks often makes the broth get done faster lol - LANjackal from IM

it is possible to have smaller groups for open source software, such as google's own gears api http://code.google.com/apis... - Mike Chelen

How is HTML 5 going to defeat Flash and SL? I haven't used it, but I don't see anything in the spec that looks like it could compare. - Gabe

@Gabe - what do you think HTML5 is missing? It does video, drawing, local storage, "threading" via WebWorkers. The biggest hole I'm aware of is the lack of access to webcams & microphones. What have I missed? - Nick Lothian

HTML 5's not "missing" much in terms of its ambition. What it's missing is a consensus among its contributors. Flash and SL have gone through several iterations while HTML 5's been sitting there - LANjackal from IM

Nick: When you say HTML 5 has "drawing", are you refering to the Canvas element? I would not consider an immediate-mode procedural raster drawing library to be much of a competitor to retained-mode declarative vector libraries like SVG or Silverlight. Programming with the Canvas tag is sort of the equivalent of programming in assembly language for bitmaps. - Gabe

@Gabe: I think you've got it upside-down. A Canvas-style API is the fundamental basis on which you can build a retained mode structure like SVG, et al. If a platform includes a retained-mode library as a convenience, so be it. You can build SVG on Canvas, but not the other way around (hacks like IECanvas notwithstanding -- they have horrible performance characteristics and are a nasty abstraction inversion). - Joel Webber

So, if Moonlight (Mono) runs on linux -- Will google make sure it doesn't work on Chrome OS? - Cliff Gerrish

No they won't, because it Silverlight already runs on Chrome as of Beta 4 - LANjackal from IM

Joel: I don't think you said anything contrary to what I said. I just don't understand why any programmer would want to waste time writing an app using a low-level library when I could use a high-level library that implements everything for me. - Gabe

@Gabe - I agree, and people are implementing those libraries now. See http://raphaeljs.com/ for example. Also, don't underestimate the convenience factor. I don't own any Flash development tools, but my text editor works pretty well for Canvas+JS based stuff. - Nick Lothian

Nick: Didn't the author of raphael have some massive rant about how bad the Canvas element is? And I don't have any Flash dev tools either, but I use a text editor for most of my Silverlight development. It is incredibly convenient to be able to type something like <DataGrid ItemsSource="{Binding tabledata}"/> into a text editor and not have to create the data grid myself. - Gabe

Why is Flash a "necessity" for an OS? I enjoy what flash can do, but it is like putting pimped out leather Oldsmobile seats in a Ferrari. It would definitely be nice, but certainly not a necessity. - Dan Douglass

Early post goof up. To your original point, I agree. I like how Google is approaching the internet space with web apps that can be run with out a bloated browser. - Dan Douglass

Dan Douglass: Flash is necessary because so many web sites rely on it. How many people would want to get a netbook that couldn't play FaceBook games or watch YouTube videos? Of course Google is in the unique position of being able to make YouTube work on ChromeOS without Flash, but they probably can't do anything about Hulu, Vimeo, or any of the other video sites out there that require Flash. - Gabe

Anyone else think Joy is Spam? - Chris Myles

already reported it yesterday :) - Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ from IM

Akiva Moskovitz

Toast goes in the toaster.

July 12, 2008 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Laura Lou Who, Jim Hearts FF, Rochelle and 23 other people liked this

No. Toast comes OUT of the toaster. Bread goes in. :-) - Lisa L. Seifert

41 more comments

Wrong! Bread that is destined for the toaster actually exists in a pre-toasted state and thus: toast goes in the toaster. - Akiva Moskovitz

Who's to say which bread is pre-destined, though? (This is a weird conversation.) - Lisa L. Seifert

@lisa Presbyterians believe the toast is pre-destined other believe the bread has a choice to make once inside the toaster. - Marco(aureliusmaximus)

"Who's to say which bread is pre-destined" - the bread gods? - Brian Sullivan

Let's ask Louis - Steven Hodson

This is the deepest conversation on FF EVER. - Eric Schlissel from twhirl

Louis is a bread god? - Brian Sullivan

Toast that comes out of the toaster was clearly destined to become toast because that is what it has become. We cannot look at a piece of bread and know that it was meant to be toast until it has become toast but once it has become toast we can say, 'Ah, yes, this slice of bread has become toast and thus it clearly has existed in a pre-toasted state up until now.' And thus: toast goes in the toaster. - Akiva Moskovitz

This flies in the face of Schroedinger's Toast Theory which suggests that bread placed into a toaster exists both in a toasted and untoasted state that can not be determined until the damn thing pops up. It's one of the most delicious smelling theory in all of science. - Akiva Moskovitz

I have had too much wine to follow this any further - Brian Sullivan

Does your cat put jam on his toast? - David Billingham

but then you should have said "Pre-toast goes in the toaster." - edythe

:-D But Akiva, if I'm following you correctly, you might as well say excrement comes out of the toaster, because the toast "was clearly destined" to be eaten and subsequently excreted. You could go a step farther and say the nitrogen from the excrement goes into the ground, where it is taken up by more wheat, to make more toast, to become more excrement. Thus the universe is excrement in a constant state of becoming itself. - Karim

Maybe it's not that "shit happens" so much as "shit is happening." - Karim

The toast is not toast. There is no toast. There is no bread. There are only crumbs. All else is illusion. - Roger Benningfield

you can say that again. - edythe

@Brian Actually, I think Loic Le Meur is the supreme bread being (if I dream tonight about Loic teaching me to bake bread, I will have to stay off all social media for a week). - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Roger, that is very close to being a Crumbist heresy! - Karim

Edythe:The toast is not toast. There is no toast. There is no bread. There are only crumbs. All else is illusion. - Roger Benningfield

if (empty $toaster) { $toaster += $bread; while ($bread != $toast) ... } - Tim Hoeck from NoiseRiver

roger, i actually meant karim, but i'll take what i can get. :) - edythe

Edythe: Thank you for confirming that I am, indeed, the Mr. Pibb to everyone else's Dr. Pepper. - Roger Benningfield

lol awwww Roger, that is not what she meant... :-D Besides, I heard Pibb recently got his doctoral degree... - Karim

i think they have something called Mr. Pibb Extra now. - edythe

of course, it goes without saying that the water in the Mr. Pibb, extra or otherwise, was always destined to be Mr. Pibb, and therefore should be more accurately referred to as "water ingredient for Mr. Pibb". And the same goes for water ingredient for Dr. Pepper. - Trent Olson

Karim, if you place a slice of bread into your toaster and then out pops excrement, I'd contact the manufacturer immediately and lodge a formal complaint. That toaster is a little TOO efficient. - Akiva Moskovitz

Akiva, i think your comment has a typo...don't you mean to say "and then out *poops* excrement"? makes much more sense... - Trent Olson

OMG you guys! Y'all have brought tears to my eyes. - Yolanda

Hey... that rhymes! I wish there was a way to favorite a conversation here. - Yolanda

Wow. This just kept going after I signed off last night. You guys crack me up. For shizzle. - Lisa L. Seifert

[curtsy] - Akiva Moskovitz

Are you wearing a skirt?? ;-) - Lisa L. Seifert

THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!! - Alex Scoble

NO WAY DO ANYBODY ELS NO BOUT DIS DISKOVERIE O_O - Danny Minick

Erp. It's back. - Lisa L. Seifert

I cannot believe that despite the name-dropping in this thread, that nobody actually asked me. I would clearly have illustrated how Akiva is wrong - again. - Louis Gray

This is the one thing that I am definitely not wrong about. - Akiva Moskovitz

This still cracks me up. Also, I miss Karim. - Yolanda

I don't have a toaster, yet I can make toast. How is this possible? - Jim Hearts FF

Yolanda, me, too. He was the best drive-by commenter in his class. - Akiva Moskovitz

I also miss Karim. *sigh* - Lisa L. Seifert

If toast goes in the toaster, then a wife goes down the altar. Since I do not believe a pre-vows bride is a wife, I cannot agree that bread that has yet to be toasted is toast. [edit: also, if a toaster malfunctions and does not do any toasting, you don't have toast] - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

Let's all publicly love each other for a bit. Say something nice about another friendfeeder.

May 14 - Comment - Like - Share

Holly Rae, FFer, Stephen Mack, ffcode and 88 other people liked this

Derrick is really cute in person, and he's funny as hell. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

187 more comments

Nakachi is the bringer of words that brighten every day. - LogEx

I like that one, Logical Extremes. Again, the ability to like individual comments or posts would be good here. On topic, Ophelia, who is not that active on friendfeed but filters here anyway, is very good with words. Her updates both entertain and inspire me. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

Monique posts something that makes me smile or chuckle just about every day she's active - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

FFing Enigma (aka Tina) is articulate, witty, and passionate. - Glen Mistletoe

RAPatton might be the best dad i've ever read about (my dad excluded of course) - Steve C

I still love Anika's avatar. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

I have to pick one? - ha3rvey (sup homepants)

Nope. You can do it as many times as you like. For instance, I like how ha3rvey is funny and just a genuinely nice guy. :) - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

Akiva's great pictures of Babby Audrey and Rochelle always make me smile (technically that was just about one person... sorta...) :D - Lindsay

"i18n" is short for "internationalization", i+<18 letters>+n. By that schema, i80and saved us all a lot of screen real estate. - DGentry

What can I say about one person? Jason Toney's posts always elicit wonder and insight. RAPatton, I feel like is just full of awesome with his insight and approach to things. Haggis is a barrel of laughs. Steven Perez (when he's not fighting with conservatives) has spawned his own catchphrase. Nicholas K. is just about the most awesome single dad I've seen in a long time. Tina and... more... - Derrick

Victor Ganata is extremely intelligent, empathetic and articulate. He has always been exceptional in understanding others whether he agrees or disagrees with an opinion, and he always treats everyone with the utmost of respect. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Jonathan Hardesty is funny and wants to have my babies. - Haggis (Sean Loyless)

I wish I could call everyone out. If we interact here on FF, take it on faith that I pretty much love you. - Derrick

You know me, I can't ever pick one person so I will simply say that every single person I subscribe to is smart, interesting, funny and make being on this crazy little site damn entertaining. Those that I've been lucky enough to get to know beyond the site prove to me every day that everyone who has ever said only weirdos and stalkers are online are just smoking crack. - ♥patricia♥

I'm with you there, Derrick. There are so many people here who are funny, smart, interesting, entertaining, etc. There are even a couple who make me blush. NOT NAMING ANY NAMES. And then there's that cilantro dude. - ha3rvey (sup homepants)

Steven Perez is a funny guy, and can cheer me up when I'm down. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

My first public skype call was with Tad, Glen and the Amber - a lovely conversation with great people. Tad was bold enough to live stream his workstation software install expedition and is a friend to all; Glen is chalk full of incisive wit and has an easy going conversational style; and the Amber was open enough to admit she's shy but worked up the courage to get on the call anyway. Like I said, great people, and quite representative of all the good people in the land of friendfeed. - Micah Wittman

Derrick tells the truth! There's so many awesome people I can't choose just one. - Rodfather

Anika Malone is as straight a shooter as there ever has been She will always tell you the truth about what she thinks. I find that to be a quality many people could use more of, and I respect her, and love her for it. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

I can't believe that there are people I'm not subbed too. - Derrick

Shevonne is a hottie, and not because she is nice to look at. - Amber, Random Time Lord

Damn, Amber. LOL - Derrick

I love how Amber unabashedly states things. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

I wrote in my 25 things that one of my laments in life is finding a woman who challenges me mentally. Tina does just that. With aplomb. There have been countless times that I was sure of myself and she will make a comment that causes me to completely rethink the issue entirely. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Louis Gray got me to think about just being myself and not allowing the tech heavy side of FF to intimidate me. - Derrick

Michael W May and RAPatton have the best tastes in music I've ever seen in my life, I applaud and covet their music collection. - Haggis (Sean Loyless)

Derrick and Mona and Akiva and Rochelle and Jandy and many of you make me laugh every day. - Louis Gray

Derrick is the shizzle, treated me like an old friend. That's one of 500 nice things I have to say about other Friendfeeders. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

Rachel Fox takes outstanding pictures. - Louis Gray

My little pea... fierce as a woozle, indeed! So quiet and unassuming... But so poignant at exactly the right moment. The exactly right phrase to every situation. If she can' brighten your mood, nobody else can, either. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Johnny is just plain awesome - Amber, Random Time Lord

DYSP! Steven and I disagree here and there but in the end I absolutely admire his sense of humor and his passion. A truly A-Lister here on Friendfeed. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Alex Scoble, Cristo, Chris White and Thomas Hawk vigorously defend their views, but never take it (or make it) personal. - Kevin Fox

Whew... Only 642 more to go... - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

I love all of you here making my day brighter :) - BeeLing

Thomas Hawk makes me want to be a better photographer. - ha3rvey (sup homepants)

Derrick and Monique would be my road dawgs if we lived in the same city - Amber, Random Time Lord

Robert Scoble is on a mission to close down every other social network. - Louis Gray

Tad is fun to chat with, even during the awkward moments - Amber, Random Time Lord

I love the fact that Rochelle always likes the same stuff I like. And that Akiva and I both grew up in southeast Texas. - Glen Mistletoe

I think, most of all, Derrick has redefined what it means to be yourself. I have had the distinct honor of meeting him and what you see here is Derrick. He shares his joys with us, which is easy, but he also shares his pain with us. I must say that I am jealous of his ability to be open, and I admire him immensely. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

I love everyone who gives me a reason to drop my pants... that and Josh Haley. - Johnny Worthington

I love johnny dropping his pants....o_O - WorldofHiglet

Pea has a lovely voice and makes days better. - Amber, Random Time Lord

Bow to Joe Pierce and his movie prowess. - Amber, Random Time Lord

*drops pants* - Johnny Worthington

edythe, Morton, and Kol for liking so much, they allow everyone to notice each other. - Rodfather

I can't thank April Russo enough for all the help she has given me here at Friend Feed. She is awesome in my book. - Brent - Loving Life

I'd like to know how it Is I'm seem to be commenting right around the time Johnny is droppin' Pants? - Brent - Loving Life

Way too many good things to say about way too many people - I don't want to leave the island - Marco(aureliusmaximus)

Anna and Rodfather are great for liking the same random crap I do. - Amber, Random Time Lord

James (Tsali) you win for putting up with me all this time. Rah for being Rah. Anika for cutting to the quick in a conversation. And etc... you know you rock if I follow you. - Amber, Random Time Lord

I guess what I am saying is there are roughly a squillion people on Frienfeed of whom I am in awe and also whom I have the most respect. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

i like jim janotti. he's cool. - Trish Haley

i dig vijay and his love of all things japanese is fun. - Trish Haley

johnny worthington and his family are wicked beautiful. - Trish Haley

So are the Haleys! - Johnny Worthington

rochelle and akiva are nice in person and on FF... - Trish Haley

i would trust pea and trish r to babysit zoe. (that's saying a lot) - Trish Haley

aww. I would love to babysit Zoe! That means a lot, thank you. - ♥patricia♥

You are all awesome, but bonus props to Tina (aka) for consistently being the voice of reason in every conversation, to Derrick for being Derrick, Jandy for keeping it real, and Chris Baskind for bringing the issues, Kol Tregastes for non-stop cool stuff...man, I'm realizing I could go on...what an amazing community :-D - Louis Simoneau

Mattie Kenny is the Dulcinea to my Don Quixote. - Steven Perez

3 of you are awesome for donating to the cause of FFundercats recently. - Josh Haley

i like the conversations with katie about books. i like holly because she's a librarian and helped me with a geek problem. shevonne is down to earth and makes me want to buy boots. - Trish Haley

Holly is sweet and nice. - Steven Perez

WorldofHiglet is the Slayer. What else need be said? - Steven Perez

Josh Haley RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLES!!! - Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)

Actually, many of the people in this thread are in my "FF Favorites" list - Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)

Every time something mildly bad happens I think to myself "DAMN YOU STEVEN PEREZ!" (hey, I think that's something nice to say about him ;) - Alejandro

darren heydon is good for warm fuzzies. - Trish Haley

I can't pick out one specific person. I can name a few names, but there's a specific reason why I am subscribed to every person I am subscribed to. Jandy and Lindsey all kinds of rock, fellow geek chic - so they have to. :P Johnny keeps me cracking up. Zee is my boy for sure, we'd make a ton of trouble if we lived near each other. Monique is straight up, which is win. I can't keep naming people...it would...take up way too much time. I am sure I will though. - Candace

anika converted me to munchos... yum! - Trish Haley

joey is charming. Helen is real. Penguin is adorable. - Laura Norvig

Anika has wonderful, curious kids. - John E. Bredehoft

Outsanity is one funny motherfucker - Outsanity

Parth has a wonderful soul. Abby makes me giggle. Carlos and Cee Bee hotties who post some interesting material. Laura Botts and Jim's banter gives me happy feelings all day. Everyone I'm subbed to rocks. That's why I'm subbed to them. - Admiral Anika

Robert Scoble was the first person I heard mention FriendFeed. - ha3rvey (sup homepants)

High-five to Leather Donut for bringing us some tits and ass *thumbs up* - Outsanity

oh, it would be so hard to list them all. FF is full of lots of interesting, hilarious, entertaining, and just outstanding individuals.that I look forward to interacting with, many of whom have already been mentioned. yes, even that cilantro lover ;) There's also a fantastic bunch of librarians who hang out here and make me proud to call myself a librarian. yeah, we kinda rule. :) - holly

Holly is right. I *adore* my collection of librarians here. - Admiral Anika

Michael W. May for his taste in music, Abby Martin for her exceptional good taste in movies (and being a great mother), Håkan and Rutger for their photos and Robert Scoble for the geek stuff. And Esther for being both sweet and smart. But all of the people I sub to are people that brighten my day! - Baard @ Pixum

MWM and RAP and Haggis for the music mindshare, Tad and Steven Perez and Josh Haley and Worthington for cracking me the HELL up, Derrick for being Derrick so awesomely, Anika and Krynsky and Amani and other LA peeps for helping me learn the city, Abby and Joe Pierce and Logical Extremes and others for the fab movie convos, Louis Gray for apparently paying more attention to me than I... more... - Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF

I'm just really happy to have a great internet family. :) That's what makes FRIENDFeed so awesome. - Internet's Tad

to all ppl i follow, thankyou for sharing with me too, :) - chaz2b

I feel me some Abby Martin especially b/c of her passion for sports and movies ... Jandy for not seeing me stalk her when she was drunk posting at the show ... Shey for being the first cool Canadian I have ever met ... Mona for laughing at me when i asked for advice (and then giving me good advice) ... Anika for opening up her home ... Shevonne for being a fly girl with some fire ... I'll continue in a bit - Amani

I´ll add some love for Derrick as well b/c he was the first friendfeeder to take me under his wing and show me the ropes here. BUT there has since become a handful or two more that define my good friendfeed experience. Intelligence, humour and warmth is abundant amongst you all, so thanks. - Thomas Bøhm

Amani, were you for serious there? - Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF

Mona is incredibly thoughtful and considerate of others, not to mention AWESOME!! - Rachel Lea Fox

Agree with Holly and Anika - my librarian peeps here are amazing. And there's so many of us! - Laura Norvig

Yolanda always makes me smile. MWM and Tina are always helpful, caring, and knowledgeable. Anika is just awesome, especially her smile. Steven's singing is great. Outsanity & Tad always make me laugh (MVB often, too). Alex & Chris B. make me think. Derrick makes me feel. Jemm & Nia provide so many late night smiles. I appreciate Katie for getting me reading more, and Lindsay for getting... more... - Alix Whitmire

Jandy, I will never tell ... - Amani

Amani o_O - Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF

thanks for letting me hang out with you Friendfeeders(all of you) it's an honor and lots of fun! - Dobromir Hadzhiev

Steve C. always makes me laugh, ALWAYS. plus everyone else mentioned here is truly awesome as well :) - Kelly

Sorry, I can't say anything at the moment because I'm still enjoying everyone's warmth from Jandy's group hug - Mark Krynsky

It's hard to pick anyone out because my total FF is made up of so many brilliant people: funny, witty, acerbic, insightful, mind-blowing, thrusting, truth-seekers, provocative, timelords (okay, there might only be one of them...). I love the tech, the LOLs (and the LOLcats), the debates, the discussions, the shared problems, the glimpses into others' lives....And Monique, you have started one of my favourite threads so special props to you. - WorldofHiglet

Monique is a clever woman to kick off such a good thread - RAPatton

Josh and Trish and Tina and Yolanda and Derrick and DYSP Steven make me smile and laugh when I need it. Johnny Worthington always hears when I post an "OMG help me!" kind of thing, and he usually responds with the most absurd and sweet message. Also, he has haiku battles with me, which is all kinds of WIN. Mark W and Fierce Lindsay make me smile, and Mark VandenBerg makes me LOL. And there are so many other sweet and funny and clever people who fill my day here on FriendFeed... thank you to everyone! - Ladybug Heather

AKA Tina is really good at putting up with my silly e-crish. - teh Dork Knight aka Kenny

I love the wit of many but must say MVB can make me spit drinks at the glance of his posts. - Janet

I don't even know where to begin. There are so many people who I love for different reasons. Hmmm..My LAers (Derrick, Amani, Derrick, Anika, Monique, Edythe) because they are always cooler than cool. My New Yorkers (Mona and Cee Bee) because they bring the versatility. My mothers (Abby, Rochelle, Jen, Katie) because they always remind me how great is it to be a mom. RAPatton because... more... - Shevonne

That's OK, Shevonne. I'm sure it will come to you. :D - Steven Perez from IM

You see....Steven Perez because he's funny as hell, and then there is Yolanda cause she is one of the sweetest EVER. Ugghhh too many. This is like giving an acceptance speech. =D - Shevonne

Not me! I was talking about Mike Nayyar. He's so lonely in his dumpster. :D - Steven Perez from IM

I love all of you! - joey

I enjoy everyone, but like Thomas Hawk's photos and philosophies the most, and learn more from Louis Gray than anyone else. - jcunwired

Returning the love to Amani and Abby -- you guys are two of the most honest and kindest souls on FF. Others: RAPatton probably doesn't have a single mean bone in him (ok, poor choice of words there), I could watch Dobromir's feed all day long, Shevonne is a ray of FF sunshine, Akiva is just flat out funny - Shey, Jamaican of FF

There are so many people here that make being here worthwhile that I cannot single out just one. You guys all rock in your own special ways. - Alex Scoble

I LOVE ROBERT SCOBLE! ~ just not in that way. Not that there's anything wrong with that. - sofarsoShawn

Awww thanks Shey! My favorite Jamaican. There is Pea, my fellow DCer who is one of the most genuine peeps up in here! - Shevonne

I love interacting with all the smart, funny FFolks on here! Too many to name, but among my favorites are: Lindsey (the Fierce), Rochelle/Akiva/Audrey, Derrick, Ladybug and Scott, Jim J, RAPatton, Tina (the Enigmatic)... You all rock my world! - Laura Lou Who

ceebee and RAPatton post the most interesting stuff. and even if he wasn't my boo, i'd still be all up in JT's feed for his pop culture and politics mix. love their stuff - tiffany

M F has a great eye for great eye candy. - Mark H

there are many friendfeeders i feel particularly warmly to because something of their inner self is always coming out: Michael W. May (who has always been at the top of the list), Morton Fox, Anika/Faboo Mama, Yolanda, rap, Cecily, Tad, Akiva, Rochelle, Lindsey, Lindsay D., Beeling, Rodfather, Ginger Makela, Mark Trapp, Ceebee, Shevonne, Abby Martin, Jandy, Zach Landes, Nathan Rein,... more... - edythe

The community / user base of friendfeed is one of the biggest reasons that these days, I'm spending more time on friendfeed versus twitter. I love you all, even the people that annoy me from time to time. - Jeremy

and even yuvi, despite the fact that he used to call me Old Woman. :) and Donna Mugavero and Joanmarie and Michelle Martinez... and Silpol (now A.T.) and oh my gosh PARTH!!!! :) - edythe

and oh my gosh Shey and his jaw-droppingly lovely wife Jasmin... i like Robert Scoble, too, because he always seems upfront to me and never mean. - edythe

Additions - Cee Bee for highest quality posts consistently, Ebrahimi for pictures and translating squiggly for me, Iain for celebrity without celebrity tude, Jessie and Soup most socially conscious posts, Tina for being FF spirit leader, Lindsey online 24hours day, Anne and Jim for getting me here. :) - Steve C

I 'like' Tyson Key! And a bow toward Trish Haley, thanks for making me blush. Speaking of Haleys, Trish, Josh, and Morgan have all become favorites of mine. MVB makes me laugh like a fool, as does relative newbie Valley... he is one funny dude! Gosh, all these names are coming to mind! I'll probably have to comment more later. But for this go-round I will close by saying... if Carmen ever stops posting those daily mug shots, I'm going offline! - Jim Hearts FF

Oh, and to Monique who I guess I am not subsribed to... you completely win for putting up this post. What an excellent, excellent gift to the community! - Jim Hearts FF

Mona has gorgeous legs! :) - Beau Liening

I gotta' send some love out to the original band of hooligans who got me hooked on FF: edythe, RAP, Brandon, MWM, Louis Gray & Robert Scoble. You guys filled my world with gobs of geekiness and great interaction on SO MANY different levels. Thanks for making my addiction to FF possible. Of course, now there are so many, many, many others who help to keep me here. I can't even begin to name you all. - Lisa L. Seifert

PS: Thanks for putting up with my Twitter-heavy stream while I'm in school for this year. Eventually, I'll have time to interact more again. xoxo - Lisa L. Seifert

Alix is a wonderful caring wife who tolerates me and my annoying sleeping/eating/battlestar watching habits. I is lucky. - Shawn Whitmire

I love Akiva for bringing the comedy and the pain. I love Derrick for being as real in the OSH parking lot as he is on FF. I love Monique for being the Pied Piper of the interwebz and helping me recover my sanity. I love James for being so gently poetic. I love Rahsheen for the soft porn videos he always takes in bed. I love Johnny Worthington for being such a cuddle muffin of hair and vulgarity. I love Steven Perez for being a quicker wit than me and nicer than me all at once. - nakachi

I love Kaia for the name Baronnes Von Cut A Bitch. I love Robin (bcultural) for the science and the nation building. I love Logical Extremes and Rodfather for their quiet affirmations that never go unnoticed. I love Helen for the virtual daps she gives me whether I'm flying or firing. I love Anna Haro for all the little hearts she sends my way <3 to you, too, honey girl. - nakachi

It would take too long for me to put all my 328 subscriptions in here! If I'm following you, rest assured that you and your content matter to me. :) - Laura Lou Who

I love Rochelle 'cause momminess becomes her. And I love YOU! - nakachi

Nakachi's Facebook status updates blow my mind - Rodfather

I love this thread. We need an effing FF CONVENTION. - Derrick

This past week has not been a very good one for me and I might have lost it completely if it hadn't been for Johnny, Steven and Derrick for all dropping their pants for me. I love that there are people on here, that I have never met, that care enough to make me laugh when I am feeling way crappy. <3 And of course there are more, just giving props to those that made me feel better this week :) MWAH! - Penny

Nice Thought Monique - Two thumbs up. - Brent - Loving Life

Also, Nia for her beautiful photos and Mo for making me laugh too :) - Penny

I'm ready for more. I love Nia for her kindness and her pictures. I love me some g.warbucks 'cause she's brilliant AND pretty to look at. I love tiffany for sharing the good, the bad and the tipsy. I love Chris Weige for keeping art on my mind. I love that the people who subscribe to me give a damn about what I have to say enough to take the time to read me. I'm grateful. - nakachi from fftogo

I had no idea when I started this thread that it would blow up like this. I think this is a clear example of the value of friendfeed: the relationships we build. Sure, we have differing interests, politics, social situations and opinons, but at the end of the day, what we come here for are the people. No one exists in a vacuum, and if they did, they probably wouldn't have a friendfeed... more... - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

Shut up, bitch. - Derrick

Just playin'. :) - Derrick

Best two comments ever. - Akiva Moskovitz

It is hard to pick a single person but as stated...you all bring me much needed laughter. I especially LOVE the ladies room girls - you bring the essence of love. Thank you so much. - Janet

Personally, I think Akiva Moskovitz rocks. He's one of the main reasons why I use FriendFeed. If it weren't for him, I probably wouldn't even be here. - Akiva Moskovitz

Yeah, probably not. - Christopher Harley

Can I just say I love you all?? - Nurse Katie

Monique is all kinds of sexy. From all shy and flirty to 'oh my!' and dirty! Me likes the Mo'! - Morgan Haley

Kaia is the bee's knees because she changes her name to the funniest stuff. - Ms. G.Warbucks IYN

Monique rocks because she sings off-key in supermarkets and doesn't give a damn. (She will understand this.) :) - Ms. G.Warbucks IYN

That was a fun night. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

not to sound too much like a Mutual Admiration Society, but edythe's feed was what got me hooked on this place. :-D - Karim

Ha, there are too many awesome people here to list and compliment individually; but Denton Gentry, Kevin Johnson, and Morton Fox are all awesome and extremely skilled techies! - i80and

The FF founders and employees rock pretty hard too thanks Paul, Bret, Jim, Anna etc - Steve C

browneyes - otsunegi

Lindsay D. and Kol Tregaskes are kind and respectful even when disagreeing with someone. Civility like that deserves a mention because it is not often the norm in the online world. - Jim Hearts FF

Penny for her personality and her self portraits which are awesome and so real!<3 Dobromir, Richard and Michael who always wishes good morning ^^. Manuela, because of her sense of style what becomes to art, also a very lovely person! Nakachi, Girl, you rock my world! Stay as you are - you are wonderful! L4S who is so much fun and amazing person :) Will, cause of his kindness and cause... more... - Nia

Everybody already mentioned in this thread, plus Meryn and Joelle for being really smart and inquisitive about some of things I find particularly interesting, too. Or at least the way they discuss them. Not that I don't think that way about the rest of you, just no one had mentioned them yet. - ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ

Jim, yeah there's no need to be bitchy while disagreeing. Get your point over but don't be nasty about it. :-) - Kol Tregaskes

Bumping this, I hope. Loved this thread! - Laura Lou Who

I think Josh Haley has a very smart and charismatic older brother. No, not that one...the other one... - Morgan Haley

*bump* - Laura Lou Who

Laura Botts cracks my shit up. I'm still trying to figure out what her obsession with grits is. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

This thread was the business. *stirs grits* - Derrick

Mo, she's a Suthehn Gul. - Derrick

IIRC, it's all Barry's fault. - Laura Lou Who

Oh, and Ha3rvey's post today made me think of this thread. http://friendfeed.com/ha3rvey... - Laura Lou Who

Mo Kargas for his awesomeness. (I hope that by honoring great killer robots my death shall be quick and painless once they take over the world) - Jemm

i80and for his Linux postings, FFing Enigma for roller derbying, Mo Kargas because... the giant robot intimidates me. - DGentry

echostreamer has solid integrity and calls me on my sh!t - highly appreciated - William Harryman

How did I miss thread? It needs a comeback. Thank you LB for the bump. If you think I might know who you are, the odds are high I love you and thank you for being around (even if you have moved on, in which case you won't see this, but it is important to mention nonetheless) and thank you for letting me into your lives a little bit *hugs* - Michael W. May

MWM, this was one of the best FF threads I've ever seen. Sometimes it just needs to reappear. :) #complimentSunday - Laura Lou Who

I didn't see this the first time round either (but it looks like I was in NYC when this was happening). I have friends who I knew before FF for whom friendfeed has allowed me to know better and there are folks like RAP, edythe, and MwM whose posting and conversation have enriched my life and ignited my imagination. Thanks kids. And, of course, I love Sneezy but FF had little to do with that. - Jason Toney

I really admire Kol Tregaskes, he's always informative and gets involved quite a bit with almost everything. Quite the most selfless individual I ever came across on the net :) ... Also Holden Page impresses me everyday because he's a younger individual with tons of interest in several subjects that most older users usually get into, he shows he's not afraid to learn and keep his... more... - Tim Tunnicliff

I've met a lot of great people here on FF (I won't single anyone out). This is a diverse community that has brought some great conversations that simply could not have been done with a little blue bird and whale. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Holly Rae is the biggest FF'in promoter within a hundred mile radius of my chair. :) - Laura (hear me raura?)

I can't really say much about anyone specific, other than ya'll are the greatest and have helped amuse me through some very hard times over the past year or so, and a special thanks with much love goes out to Amber, the Random Time Lord for introducing me to FF and for putting up with me for this long. - Tsali, The Native of FF

I totally like Louis Gray - Mike Fruchter - RAPatton - Worthington - CS Techcast - and tons of other people - thanks for making my use of FF enjoyable. - Dan Morrill AKA Techwag

Gosh! Thank you very much, Tim! - Kol Tregaskes

You're very welcome my friend :+) - Tim Tunnicliff from email

It's well deserved bro and you're very welcome :+) - Tim Tunnicliff from email

Holly Rae because she is such an awesome edugeek - always sharing and encouraging others to think. And, no one can beat her flapper Halloween costume! - Shea from BuddyFeed

Yeah, that costume was the business. - DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE

I enjoy my time "in" here with most of my FF friends - VAL D. Zone

Sheesh! Thanks @laurapresently and @shea for saying nice things about me. How the hell (excuse the french) did I miss that!!! Thanks Monique for starting the thread and mentioning 'the business' - Holly Rae, FFer

My turn... Laura (hear my raura) for putting up with me talking about FF endlessly on days like 'the day FB bought FF' - Holly Rae, FFer

Thanks to Shea for being generous with time and resources. He invited me to Google Wave. - Holly Rae, FFer

Thanks to Josh Haley & Johnny for creating a podcast that rocks and clued me in to so many things about FF. - Holly Rae, FFer

Thanks to Josh Haley for being the first FFer who gave me really great advice about lists. - Holly Rae, FFer

Thanks to Louis Gray for always searching up Friendfeed mentions and liking ... makes Newbies feel great!! - Holly Rae, FFer

And thanks to everyone but my Diet Coke enabler is here now. Then I have to go work again. Love you guys! - Holly Rae, FFer

:) - Josh Haley

Derrick

Fentimans Soda - http://www.uncrate.com/men...

June 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Jay Cuthrell, Harold, RAPatton and 23 other people liked this

"Now that you've given up Coors for craft beer, it's time you gave up Coke for Fentimans Soda ($2.50). Botanically brewed with all-natural herbal ingredients, the full-bodied flavors include Ginger Beer, Curiosity Cola, Victorian Lemonade Soda (contains the juice of 1½ lemons), Mandarin & Seville Orange Jigger Soda, Dandelion & Burdock Soda, and Shandy Soda (contains 70% Beer)." - Derrick from Bookmarklet

10 more comments

That lemonade soda is the business. Mix with vodka...YUM. - Admiral Anika

OMG, gimme that orange soda. - Ayşe E.

Cool! Where can I get that? - Laura Lou Who

Wait...$2.50? It cost me more than that. I think I had paid closer to $4. - Admiral Anika

Oooh, I have to track this down and try the ginger beer. I'm trying to find something that will save me from the effort of learning how to make my own. - Maria Niles

I need that Victorian Lemonade. *drools* - Kisha, Well Conditioned from BuddyFeed

this would have more retro appeal if they called them "phosphates" instead of sodas. ;-) - Karim

Curiosity Cola -- I've been drinking this "Kool-Aid" my whole life ;-) http://bit.ly/VEKBL - Viqi French

Don't quote me, but I think this might be the same company that makes a non-alcoholic shandy (lager and lemonade). SO YUMMY. - cecily

I like the idea, Derrick, but I gotta stick with the family ginger beer: http://www.reedsgingerbrew.com/brews... lol - Melanie Reed

Reed's is good stuff, Melanie. You'll get no argument from me. - Derrick

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, US Politics

Officer at eye of storm says he won’t apologize - The Boston Globe - http://www.boston.com/news...

July 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Dante Rose Pleiades, Ethan, Geer and 30 other people liked this

"When Sergeant James M. Crowley climbed the front steps of Henry Louis Gates Jr.’s house last week and unexpectedly placed himself in international headlines, it was not the first time he had a memorable encounter in the line of duty with a prominent black man. Nearly 16 years ago, as a Brandeis University police officer, Crowley desperately tried to save the life of Reggie Lewis after the Boston Celtics star collapsed while practicing in the school gym. “It bothers him terribly that he couldn’t save him,’’ Crowley’s 74-year-old mother, Verina Crowley, said yesterday, speaking of her son and the famous basketball player." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

508 more comments

"But people who know Crowley were skeptical or outright dismissive of allegations of racism. A prominent defense lawyer, a neighbor of Crowley’s, his union, and fellow officers described him yesterday as a respected, and respectful, officer who performs his job well and has led his colleagues in diversity training." - Sean McBride

He may not be a racist, but he did a racist thing. Do you think someone can act out societal norms - like racism- without consciously thinking about it? I do. - anna sauce

+1 anna - Christopher Chung

Is he guilty of doing a racist thing? Yes. Is he guilty of being a racist? That's still to be determined. - anna sauce

I have a lot of sympathy for officers usually because in the height and drama of the moment, it's hard to think clearly, even if it's your job and you're trained for it. But this apologist approach, based on helping a former sports star, is tacky. If I was him or advising him, I'd say, mea culpa and work towards opening up this situation to the light more so it doesn't happen again. - anna sauce

What "racist thing" did he supposedly do? - Brian Sullivan

Are you really asking me that? Haha. - anna sauce

Yes I am -- the fact that Gates is black and Crowley is white do not automatically make any of Crowley's actions racist. From the reports it seems Gates was being an asshole and Crowley overreacted and arrested him. If Gates had been white he would most likely have been arrested. - Brian Sullivan

I'd be an asshole too if a cop came into my house and arrested me for no good reason. - Derrick

Just because he has compassion in easy situations when he is on his 'home turf'(officer) doesn't mean it translates into the challenges in life. The cop has a lesson to learn and he should have made a public apology. He was in someone else's home(the cop) and arresting Gates in this own home!!!!!! ALL EGO!! - Myrna

I take it you haven't read Gates' side of the story. - anna sauce

There are racial disparities in arrest rates to estimated crime rates, Brian. (To expand: taking estimated number of crimes committed by black and white men, black men are more likely to be arrested for the same crimes relative to their share of the crime rate.) - Andrew C

If a cop questioned me while I was trying to force my way into my own house, under the reasonable suspicion that I was in the middle of a break-in, I would *thank* the cop for trying to protect my property, after calmly explaining the situation to him and offering ID. Wouldn't most people? There had been a previous break-in attempt at Gates's house not long before this incident. - Sean McBride

And it's interesting that you don't believe HLG when he said he did that. - anna sauce

Sean, if you doubt racism in this counrtry, let me share with you a comparative scene. I broke into my apartment recently as a white woman, and I was helped by two strangers. So, hmmm. - anna sauce

very interesting anna - Myrna

Never had to show ID. - anna sauce

Anna, do you have a link to Gates' take? I haven't read it myself. - chrisofspades

And you're not being fair, or even level. You're over positing one side of the story. - anna sauce

Anna -- I know there is a great deal of racism in this society. That generality doesn't make Crowley a racist. - Sean McBride

Crowley's side would be more believable if the Cambridge police didn't have a history of this sort of thing. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Anna -- what if someone tried to break into your house and claimed to be you to passersby? You don't think cops are aware of that kind of scenario? They are paid to be suspicious, and the suspicion is sometimes justified. - Sean McBride

Sure here you go- http://friendfeed.com/banane... - anna sauce

Well, Sean, for one, my neighbors know me really well. So sadly HLG had that not going for him. Another, I'm glad they would intervene. If the person had identified themselves a smy sister/mom (has happened before) I hope they let them go and NOT ARREST THEM. - anna sauce

Though how his colleague didn't know HLG from Harvard is beyond me. He is a superstar there, and a superstar in academia. And she works there!! - anna sauce

Anna -- I agree: Crowley shouldn't have arrested Gates. And Gates should have handled the situation much more intelligently than he did. - Sean McBride

I just quickly scanned nearly 400 comments on the Gates/Crowley case in response to The Boston Globe article: http://www.boston.com/news... The sentiment is running overwhelmingly pro-Crowley. The Boston Globe is one of the most liberal newspapers in the nation (with many Harvard University readers):... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you do know that Boston can be a pretty racist city, right? And that liberal != automatically non-racist? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- what evidence do you have that the Boston Globe is a racist newspaper? The Globe is regularly reviled from the right for being a far left pinko op. Do you disagree with the substance of any of its reporting about Crowley? An interesting comment on the article: "This seems less about race than about class. Gates is POd because a lowly cop didn't recognize and defer to the star Harvard professor. Cue audio: 'Do you know who I am???'" - Sean McBride

I don't have any evidence that the Globe is a racist paper, but then again, I didn't claim that. And you should know as well as anyone that the right wing calling anyone a pinko far leftist only means that position is somewhere left of far right. - Andrew C

And as to the substance of the article, I don't see how it's relevant at all that he helped treat Reggie Lewis. And I hate to break it to you, but OF COURSE he and his family and friends would say he's not racist. That would be true of nearly anyone, no matter how racist they were. (Excluding the fringe who think it truly is acceptable to say racist things in public.) - Andrew C

Have you read Gates' lawyer's statement? http://www.theroot.com/views... "The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his... more... - Andrew C

Andrew: so: according to Gates and Ogletree, Gates calmly cooperated with Crowley's requests. Gates and Crowley have two very different stories about what happened. I am going to wait to see what develops before assuming either story is true -- this has become an international incident, and quite a few reporters are going to be all over it. The comments at The Root don't look very promising for Gates' side: http://www.theroot.com/views... Maybe The Root is also a hangout for racists. - Sean McBride

Isn't that a little on the line of "he said, he said" especially now that lawyers are involved. Still don't see where racism is implied. - Brian Sullivan

The only hint of racism that I see is that Gates called Rowley a racist. If Gates was white and called Rowley a fascist pig -- would that have elicited the same response? - Brian Sullivan

Andrew: from The Root site you pointed to: "The Police report was not written by the arresting officer. It was written by Officer Figueroa, a Latino. The third Cambridge Office was African American. With the exception of Officer Crowley making initial contact with Gates, at the door, the entire incident was witnessed by many others. If the Police Report was inaccurate, over a dozen... more... - Sean McBride

I agree that right now it's just a matter of determining who's story is true. IF it is true that Crowley was presented the ID without any problem and yet Crowley proceeded to demean Gates by arresting him, then you MUST consider some sort of (perhaps subconscious) racism as a potential factor, because, consider: If (1) Gates were WHITE and (2) the story proceeded exactly as Gates'... more... - Christopher Chung

@Brian and other deniers - People won't know what it's like to be pregnant until they actually are. No amount of role playing can change that. Same goes for racism. Denial of racism EVERY SINGLE TIME it is pointed out is ridiculous! And quite telling of your own privilege and position in society. It's also quite delusional. - Kandeezie

Kandeezie - you are being patently unfair. Classing me and others that are reluctant to agree that this case is racially motivated without more evidence as those that deny racism every single time it is pointed is equally ridiculous. - Brian Sullivan

How can you prove that I am unfair? Where is the evidence? Where is your authority to speak to unfairness and its criteria? If I were accused of being a denier, I would calmly deal with the situation without calling others unfair. That's the right thing to do. Until I see more evidence that I am being unfair, then I will just have to assume that you're unjustifiably angry. - Kandeezie

Kandeezie -- as I recall you accused me of being delusional and if not directly in veiled way of being a racist. I think the burden of proof in this argument lies with you. - Brian Sullivan

Christopher -- if no one supports Gates' story, and if Latino and African-American cops support Crowley's story, case closed from the standpoint of public opinion, especially regarding the racism charge. One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?" Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism. - Sean McBride

Sean - some of those Root comments predate the updating of the story. - Andrew C

"One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?"" - I must have missed where anyone said Gates said that... - Andrew C

Sorry, Brian. I don't see it. - Kandeezie

I think this view of racism, and this entire discussion, is kind of simplistic. We're not solving an equation, or a brain teaser. I think it's a mistake to try to reduce these kinds of questions into logical progressions of facts and pseudo-facts. For example, Latino and black cops support the police testimony. Yes, that definitely is, in some ways, in support of Crowley: The black guy... more... - Christopher Chung

Andrew: there's this thing called Google. :) google(gates crowley "do you know who i am" http://www.google.com/#q=gate...) - Sean McBride

1UP Christopher. - Derrick

Sean, the first 5 links there are all hyperbolic satire of what Gates might have said. _No one_ said Gates actually said such a line. Your BS detector needs a LOT of upgrading. - Andrew C

Christopher -- this is a very complicated story, with some comedic as well as tragic elements. Tom Wolfe should write a novel based on it. - Sean McBride

Tom Wolfe would be perfect. lol. fyis, more fun reading from a couple days back if anyone hadn't seen it yet. : http://www.theroot.com/views... - Christopher Chung

What is interesting is that as more facts come out about this case, the accusations of racism keep being expanded to include everyone who has questions about Gates's behavior (including left-leaning publications). Even the most progressive news sites and blogs out there are loaded up with comments that are critical of Gates, and which are taking sharp notice of the classism angle in... more... - Sean McBride

Again, "he said, he said".... From Gates' Roots interview: "The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured." and "... more... - Christopher Chung

If I were Gates's PR adviser, I would urge him to work out some mutual reconciliation with Crowley, one which doesn't require either side to grovel. It was a mutual misunderstanding. Both gentlemen are fine, upstanding human beings. It's the best way to go with this. I've already seen enough reportage and commentary on the controversy to understand that Gates's position is not nearly as strong as it should be. He's losing the commentary wars on the progressive blogs -- a really bad sign. - Sean McBride

Sean I think you're responding to the fear, among whites, of being called a racist. And this video blog highlights the issue (and is more eloquent) then I could ever be. It's not about bein ga racist, it's about doing racist things: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - anna sauce

Am I right, after reading the police report, that Mr. Gates assumed that the officer was a racist from very beginning, regardless of what the officer said or did later? Moreover, the whole story goes on and on only because Mr. Gates public activity benefits from this publicity. I think Sean is right, the decent thing to do would be to reconciliate publicly and do not let it end in court. I doubt it will happen though, for the reason mentioned above. - andrei_c

Just goes to show, even the left has problems dealing with issues of race. For some, this is really clear cut. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right conclusion, but it would be nice if people didn't off hand consider that conclusion crazy. The thing that is infuriating is this sense that we shouldn't at all question the cop's motives for arresting HLG, as if there were absolutely no way he could be influenced even subconsciously by the fact that HLG is black. - Victor Ganata

I see no reason why he should be conciliatory. He was arrested in his own house, after proving he lived there. - anna sauce

Ok, so what if he's not a racist. He definitely has ego/arrogance, interpersonal relations problems and should be required to go for some kind of group therapy. And at the very least, apologize. - Myrna

It was a mistake that he was called to the house. So admit it and leave. Say you're sorry for imposing. - Myrna

"Cop Who Arrested Gates Teaches Racial-Profiling Classes: Complicating the matter is the fact that Crowley, who has been accused of racial profiling by some (even though it was a neighbor calling 911 that pegged Gates for a burglar as he tried to get into his own home), has actually taught a class on the contentious law-enforcement issue for years. The class specifically explains how... more... - Sean McBride

It doesn't matter. You can be extremely sensitive to racial issues and still commit a racist act, or say something that's racist. - Victor Ganata

Crowley on the incident: “I will say that when I first encountered the professor, I really wasn’t sure what I was dealing with,” Sgt. James Crowley tells WEEI radio. “The reason I asked the professor to come outside was not as someone suggested because I knew I couldn’t arrest him in his house. I didn’t know who he was. I was by myself. I was the only one who was standing there. I had... more... - Sean McBride

Even after he showed him his ID? Forget about race here. Is it truly reasonable to be arrested for entering your own home after fully identifying yourself? Basically, Crowley is saying that he was going to arrest HLG no matter what, then. - Victor Ganata

Does everyone here know that Barack Obama is currently being labeled by many pro-Israel activists as an "anti-Semite" and even a "Jew hater" because his administration strongly opposes Israel's continued building of settlements? (Reportedly the Israel prime minister recently described Rahm Emaneul and David Axelrod as "self-hating Jews.") Are the charges true because they have been... more... - Sean McBride

Yay, police! Clearly, this all Gates's fault. Doesn't he know as a Black man in America you don't mess with the police? What's his Ph.D in? - Derrick

It's important to distinguish between doing/saying something that is racist, and actually being a racist. It's not a losing issue among people-of-color, but maybe we really don't matter after all. - Victor Ganata

Being arrested on your front porch _after_ proving you're the homeowner, not a burglar, and by a cop who refused to provide identification, is a losing issue? I'm going to stick with the losers, then. - Andrew C

http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - "The lesson most cops understand (apart from the importance of using the word "tumultuous," which features prominently in Crowley's report) is that a person cannot violate 272/53 by yelling in his own home." - Andrew C

1UP Andrew - Derrick

+1 Andrew - anna sauce

The journalists, and the officer, are denying "being racist" - but are they denying the racist acts? Nope. Why would someone- anyone- arrest someone in their own home? Because they are belligerent? If no violence was done, who cares? And if they are justified? This Boston Globe article is pretty irresponsible. It's addressing an allegation that wasn't even made. It's addressing a charge that was fabricated. It's almost what I hate about traditional, sensationalist media. - anna sauce

Is it possible the professor overreacted? ...and it was influenced by race. And then the cops re-overreacted? And it wasn't influenced by race. Is that possible? - Edward Zwart

I don't think HLG was the definite instigator in this case. You still have to ask why Ms Whalen found it necessary to call the cops on her neighbor. I mean, anything is possible, maybe everyone but HLG was completely color-blind, but it doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake, and I was always taught that you apologize for your mistakes. - Victor Ganata

(liking this to come back to it.) - Ayşe E.

Good lord -- a friend just reminded me that I attended two parties at this very house several years ago -- a Christmas party and a summer barbecue. (I must have had a few at those occasions to forget that.) And as I recall there is some well-justified paranoia about crime in most parts of Cambridge, including the Ware Street area between Harvard St. and Broadway. And Victor: the... more... - Sean McBride

Edward Zwart: I think you nailed it: Gates overreacted because he is understandably sensitive about racial issues, and Crowley overreacted because that is often what cops do when you get too aggressively in their face. So picture a happy solution and photo: Gates and Crowley with their arms around one another's shoulders, big smiles, thumbs up, and the caption no harm, no foul. Just a big misunderstanding all around. Then let a next generation Tom Wolfe explore the darkly comic dimensions of this incident. - Sean McBride

It gets better: "For five of the past six years, Crowley also has volunteered alongside a black colleague in teaching 60 cadets per year about how to avoid targeting suspects merely because of their race, and how to respond to an array of scenarios they might encounter on the beat. Thomas Fleming, director of the Lowell Police Academy, said Crowley was asked by former Cambridge police... more... - Sean McBride

Just because he's being called out for a racist act doesn't mean he's being called a racist. People make mistakes. People are better off for admitting their mistakes. Even if you have good intentions, if you do the wrong thing, you should apologize. - Victor Ganata

More: the neighbor who reported what she thought was a possible break-in works at Harvard Magazine and is considered a reliable person. She was trying to do the right thing. http://www.mercurynews.com/nationw... - Sean McBride

Victor -- since Gates unfairly accused Crowley of being a racist, I think there is little chance that he is going to receive an apology unless he climbs down. And I strongly disagree that there was anything racist about Crowley's act -- I think he sincerely thought that Gates was out of control. This looked like a racist act at first glance, but the more details we acquire, the more obvious it becomes that it wasn't. - Sean McBride

Just because you're trying to do the right thing doesn't mean you can't be culpable when it goes wrong. - Victor Ganata

Sean, we just have an obviously different definition of racism. I'm not saying Crowley is a racist. I'm not saying his actions were done with malicious intent. But the fact of the matter is that what he did just further poisons the well, and given that Crowley is the one in the position of greater power, I think he also has the greater power to heal this rift. - Victor Ganata

Hey, Anna, Andrew, Victor and others, let me emphasize: if you think this was a racist incident, I respect that. I'm just expressing my point of view. This story is open to many interpretations. And I understand that African-Americans are going to be looking at this story from a different set of experiences than mine. - Sean McBride

Of course Crowley wouldn't have arrested a 58 year old white professor with a cane. Because he probably wouldn't have approached the situation in an entirely different manner. And even if it wasn't explicit racism, it was most likely implicit racism. We'll never be able to prove racism. But Gates should never have been arrested in the first place and there's been quite a few lawyers posting in agreement of this. Gates has the right to raise his voice to the police. - Graham English

You know what? When the President of the United States (in all practicality) calls you a douchenozzle on national television during a Presidential press conference... Perhaps a Clinton suicide (two to the back of the head) is your best option. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

MVB, you believe that Vince Foster conspiracy theory? - Andrew C

Andrew I hold the Vince Foster Theory and the Clintons Married for Love Theory with equal weght. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

1) Vince Foster shot himself in the mouth, so I have no idea what your "Clinton suicide (two to the back of the head)", and the Clintons married in 1975 -- is your confusion about their love (and are you using these mind-reading powers for good or evil?) because prominent Republican politicians who are currently married for love generally tend to be married to their third wife? - Andrew C

I promised the NSA I would only use my mind-reading powers for good, Andrew. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

I just took a quick glance at the flood of articles flowing through Google on this story this morning, and it looks to me that opinion is continuing to turn against Gates, including from the left progressive side of the political spectrum. Is anyone reading the situation differently? Also, I think Obama made a major political mistake by entering the fray without first collecting all the facts. This is looking more and more like a controversy about classism than about racism. - Sean McBride

Should Obama take his cue from Bezos? :) - Edward Zwart

Edward -- are you referring to his walk-back from the Amazon Orwellian incident? Actually, I just noticed that Obama is walking back from his "stupidly" remark, which only served to highlight the classism angle on the Gates/Crowley contretemps. - Sean McBride

First definition for contretemps popped up by Google: [an awkward clash; "he tried to smooth over his contretemps with the policeman"] :) - Sean McBride

Well, it was inevitable that Obama would retract. You can't call cops' behavior stupid as the pres. I more meant the manner in which he retracts. Off to see how he worded it... - Edward Zwart

(btw, yes, I meant the Amazon Orwell incident) Doesn't look like Obama took the opportunity to admit any wrongdoing. Too bad IMO. - Edward Zwart

Edward -- I agree: Obama's walk-back was as inept as his original comment. Usually he is smarter than this. - Sean McBride

Notes from a Phantom Negro: “Skip Gates:Please Sit Down” http://thisweekinblackness.com/2009... Less than laudatory remarks on Gates from a black Ivy Leaguer who knows the social dynamics in play in this incident from the inside. - Sean McBride

Oh, well, if someone black says it then - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I thought it was an insightful essay, from someone who knows this social terrain from the inside -- what did the author get wrong? The smart commentators on this episode all seem to be noticing the salience of classism angle. - Sean McBride

Smart, as defined by you. If you read Gates' comments, he specifically mentions "the incident made him realize how vulnerable poor people and minorities are "to capricious forces like a rogue policeman, and this man clearly was a rogue policeman." The essay you linked to doesn't reflect that. - Richard Lawler

Sean - The writer you just cited also states that racial profiling is a fact of life for black men. His argument is that supposedly Gates forgot this because of his stature. This essay does not excuse Crowley at all. - Katy S

From the essay: "Which brings me to Skip Gates. He isn’t outraged because he feels he was the victim of racial profiling by the police (that dubious honor goes to his foolish neighbor). He’s outraged because he was the victim of class profiling. He didn’t resent being identitified as Black; he resented being identified as that kind of Black, the kind of Black that can be hassled and... more... - Sean McBride

By the way, I strongly disagree with the remark that the neighbor was "foolish," or that her call was motivated in any way by racism. But I am sure she will have an opportunity to tell her side of the story. - Sean McBride

Sean, was that quote supposed to address my criticism of the article? - Richard Lawler

Katy -- there is not a shred of evidence to support the claim that Crowley or the neighbor were motivated by racism or racial profiling in this case. Watch how this story continues to unfold. - Sean McBride

Richard -- I didn't see you address the classism issue which was the core of the article. The author also remarked that Gates should have been smart enough to keep his cool. - Sean McBride

So if you can find a black person like the author of that article that says Gates should shut up, kept his mouth shut and acted like a good boy, it's ok then? Gates = wrong and Crowley = right? - Derrick

I'm sorry, I forgot that I typed a point by point rebuttal of the article, oh wait I didn't. I mentioned what the article conveniently ignored. - Richard Lawler

Derrick -- criticism of Gates is coming from all across the political/ethnic/racial spectrum, not just from a single black Ivy Leaguer -- Google it. - Sean McBride

I never said the neighbor was foolish. And I didn't call the cop a racist. I noted that there are reasons, historically and in the present, that explain why Gates would be upset. This police officer is supposedly an expert in profiling - he should have known this too. And, it was stupid to arrest Gates the way he did. When Obama said that, I saw it as a lawyer's position. The arrest charge certainly didn't stand. - Katy S

Sean, I'm well aware of how to operate a computer, thanks for that. My criticism is that black people aren't monolithic, we don't all some tow some consistent black protocol on even matters of race. To point out an article written by a black and move along the lines of, "Well this one black guy criticized Gates and the cop is therefore right," is dismissive of proves your point well enough, but your point only. - Derrick

Sean, do you really think this went down exactly as it should have? That, regardless of race, it was the right thing to arrest a man in his own house for being surly and demanding you give him your name and your badge number? I guess I'd been going on the assumption that we all agreed that this went down wrong, and that it's really a matter of who needs to take responsibility for it going wrong. - Victor Ganata

Victor, as I mentioned previously, I don't think the arrest should have gone down, and I believe that both parties were at fault. I also think that Gates has more to lose from this mess than Crowley. Most of us would cooperate with a police officer who was investigating a possible break-in at our residence, not verbally abuse him. (And, to repeat, Gates' home had recently been the target of a previous attempted break-in.) How much do you want to bet that Gates walks back from his initial position? - Sean McBride

Arguing who has more to lose is an odd tack to take. If you think he shouldn't have been arrested, why should he be willing to let it go? I'd suspect, as someone who has never been arrested, that it's a somewhat traumatic experience and that, by his own words, he wants to make it a learning experience. - Richard Lawler

Derrick -- in no way did I mean to imply that that single author spoke for blacks as a whole (nor do I agree with the article in all the particulars). But I found his point of view interesting to throw into the mix because of his first-hand knowledge of the social world in which this incident occurred. - Sean McBride

But his point of view doesn't address Gates' stated reason for his issues with the incident. Note: I actually agree with the article in large part, but it's not in any way relevant. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- bottom line -- I need to wait for all the charges and counter-charges to be sorted out before coming to any firm opinions about what really happened here. I took what I thought was a somewhat contrarian position on the story (in part, because I tend to be contrarian-minded by nature), but then discovered that the politically incorrect questions that occurred to me were being... more... - Sean McBride

Interesting that you define your questions as politically incorrect. I don't know where that comes into play, or even what that is, but you're still not addressing what I mentioned. As far as being "fully vindicated" the charges were dropped. I don't know how much more vindicated you can get. The point I brought up is Gates' own statement that if he weren't who he is and had the resources and connections he has, would there be any possibility of vindication forthcoming? I wonder if you think about that. - Richard Lawler

I'm noticing an interesting overlay. Those that are libertarian, no government, "govt out of my bedroom" oddly backing up the cops here in a case of being arrested in your house for breaking into your house. - anna sauce

anna =) - Andrew C

Richard - I agree with the article in that a Harvard man will tell you he went to Harvard in the first 5 minutes. But not in that you should "shut down and be quiet," that any way to manage the blatant lopsided behavior of the police to racial issues is to be subservient. I think Gates chose a great time to bring this matter to the fore. Despite being jet lagged, tired, old, and locked... more... - anna sauce

My concern is that this officer is, in one way or another, trying to push forward the thought that one cannot be upset or agitated in front of officer without risking arrest. If the person poses no threat to the officers or themselves, then what is he trying to police? Someone said it nicely on Facebook: "the officer could have put himself in Gate's shoes and they could have shared a... more... - Kandeezie

Before this whole thing happened, HLG was one of my intellectual heroes. He's a very, very smart man. I think this was well thought out (that he knew he could go quiet, or he could resist- in his way Lawfully resist.) - anna sauce

I guess what I'm trying to say- HLG is not a black professor, he is one of the best professors, one of the best intellectual minds. - anna sauce

Sean, that article talks about a black man's "healthy fear of the police" and the "black tax". These are statements of fact, but _this is not how the world should be_. I can't imagine how you think an article that says "life isn't fair and Skip Gates forgot that here" puts Gates in the wrong. - Andrew C

I'd quote that saying about how only unreasonable people change the world, but it's a bit early (on the west coast) for greeting card sentiments. - Andrew C

So on NPR yesterday they had an African-American first police superintendent of a town in Alabama, I believe, and he was telling the anchor that recruits today aren't given the same kind of background and fabric on race relations- like Jim Crowe- so that they can handle this "stew" of issues. I thought that was interesting. - anna sauce

@Andrew, I agree. It's almost as if ppl are saying "you know cops don't like you, you should have known better to be on your best behaviour, far better than whites need to be, because you're 'Black in America' (lol)" - blame the victim? I think so. - Kandeezie

From an interesting discussion on the Huffington Post about the Gates affair: "Even once a physical threat had been removed, there was apparently another level of threat that Gates apparently posed. In the midst of the confrontation, Gates apparently tried to call the Cambridge Chief of Police and threatening the officer: "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH". This was a direct... more... - Sean McBride

Continued: "Such stylized interactions are well-known to most ordinary citizens. If you get pulled over by a police officer for a traffic infraction and you react with some contrition and humility, you have a fair chance of escaping with an oral warning. Challenge the officer, and you get a ticket. With certainty. Regardless of your race." - Sean McBride

"Would we want our police officers to back down before a white corporate executive or elected official who threatened to call a Chief of Police? " ... An exec or elected official _who did nothing wrong_? Hell yes. - Andrew C

Sean, do you agree with all of the things you've quoted/linked, or are you just quoting them to spark more discussion? - chrisofspades from email

A threat to authority is not a threat to his life. Know the difference. - Kandeezie

Chrisofspades -- I very rarely agree with all or even most of the quotes and links I post -- they are starting points for analyzing and discussing an issue or situation. It's important to look closely at many points of view on controversial issues. - Sean McBride

Quick poll: has anyone here ever verbally abused a cop? (My own answer: no, for reasons of rational self-interest. If you have a disagreement with a cop, there are legal channels to pursue. Getting in the face of a cop is a no-win proposition.) - Sean McBride

Sean, okay thanks. just wanted to clarify where you were comin from. and its CHRISofspades, not CHRISTofspades! world of difference there hehe - chrisofspades from email

Yeah, what Kandeezie said. Insufficiently respecting the officer's authoritah is not a crime. - Andrew C

Chris -- I already caught the typo and fixed it. :) Quick question: have you ever verbally abused a cop? (I am curious if anyone here has done so, or would do so.) - Sean McBride

I have never verbally abused a cop. talked back to, sure, but never abused. but that's cuz I've done something wrong, and I usually want to get on their good graces so they let me go. - chrisofspades

Most people have enough common sense not to verbally abuse cops -- including most Harvard professors. - Sean McBride

Oh really now. And there's evidence of this where? The amount of times each racial group mouths off and gets arrested. I would like to know... - Kandeezie

By the way, as for your poll, I *have* told a police officer that he was lying, in a very aggressive way. Because he was lying when he said my car was registered at a different address than my own, insinuating that I stole the car. I handed him his ass on a plate. And nope, didn't visit jail that day either. Surprise surprise! - Kandeezie

You are a brave woman, Kandeezie. :) My inclination is to play the odds -- getting in the face of a cop is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. - Sean McBride

one incident is very different then a career. we judge Obama's actions on Israel based on his pattern of abuse. Obama's vilification of this guy is more of the same pattern of not having all the facts. Crowley might be wrong... but Obama was out of line. - Noah David Simon

No! Obama can say what he wants. He did not vilify the cop. It *is* stupid to arrest someone on a bogus charge after they have shown you that they live there. What - he couldn't establish that he was a burglar so he had to get him with something? Surprising at how much people want to protect rights, unless the person is non-white. - Kandeezie

And no, Sean. I am not brave. Cops are not god. I do not need to pray to them. End of story! - Kandeezie

Well, Obama and I seem to be on the same page: "At an impromptu appearance at the daily White House briefing, Obama said he spoke with Crowley over the phone, and said he wanted to share a beer with Crowley and Gates at the White House. "My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve it the way the wanted to resolve it," Obama added." Smart move -- Obama may be able to fix the situation. (I love when I get my predictions right :) -- it's an ego thing.) - Sean McBride

The worst thing for me re: the cop is that he showed low common sense, and created more drama. They are supposed to diffuse situations. He's making me love my local cops, because I've seen them, coutnless times, diffuse situations and have a thick skin, be sensitive, and understand the cultural situation at play. This guy? A clown. - anna sauce

The Salon article was written by someone who apparently has a problem with Gates that goes well beyond this incident. From what I know of him (which is admittedly little, though we are in similar academic fields), he's arrogant and self-aggrandizing. That doesn't make arresting him in his own house, or on the porch thereof, right, particularly if he had identified himself as the homeowner. - Steve Lowe

Kandeezie -- I don't think that the police are God. What I think is that they are human beings who are under a great deal of stress, who are underpaid, who often carry guns, who possess professional skills in the application of force, including deadly force, and who are backed by the full crushing power and apparatus of the state. Most people are understandably reluctant to provoke a... more... - Sean McBride

Wow -- I just noticed that the article I linked to here by Phantom Negro -- "Skip Gates, please sit down" -- is currently the most popular article on Salon.com -- arguably the most influential *progressive* site on the Web. The fifth most popular article is "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" by Joan Walsh. This is opinion from the *left*. Opinion on the right is, of course, much harsher. So this incident is a total lose-lose for Obama. - Sean McBride

You can see the opinion of web traffic? What fricking tools are you using? When did google trends add that feature? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- visit the Salon.com home page -- it lists Salon's most popular/read articles. I was astonished to see the Phanton Negro's article at the top of the list. - Sean McBride

Oddly, I don't remember questioning where it is on the list. Let me reread my previous comment. - Richard Lawler

Addendum: the Phantom Negro article ranks #1 for Salon.com's most active letters, and the Joan Walsh article "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" ranks #2. Visit http://www.salon.com/ The controversy is continuing to rage, with both Obama and Gates suffering major hits. The tragedy here is that the nation is facing problems of much greater consequence. - Sean McBride

Repeating the same false argument doesn't make it valid and/or relevant. - Richard Lawler

Richard: politicans who don't pay attention to public opinion trends risk losing support for their political agenda. That is the larger context to keep in mind. I think we should be talking about more important issues that Gates. Obama still hasn't extricated himself from this mess, despite his generous offer to host peace talks at the White House. And Gates and Crowley are still... more... - Sean McBride

And this explains how you know what political trends are to the right and left based on the most popular page on a particular website. The context I keep in mind is that most people, like you, are linking to the article and not reading it, merely focusing on who it is written by and the slant you perceive in it. - Richard Lawler

Not true, Richard. I've read and fully digested at least a few hundred articles on this story now, and have a good sense of how opinion is trending on it. That is why I was able to predict with confidence that Obama would walk back from his initial statement on the story -- his staff are looking at the same data I'm looking at. And he may walk back even farther, unless this story disappears pronto -- he has more important issues on his plate. - Sean McBride

Richard: more progressive opinion on the story, this time from Talking Points Memo: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009... Notice the sharp annoyance creeping into Todd Gittlin's voice about the way the Gates story has been distracting attention from much more important issues, especially health care. - Sean McBride

Which again, explains how traffic to a particular article indicates political trends on the left or right. Walking back, forwards or otherwise, that statement makes less sense than the arrest that sparked this whole thing. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I am relying on hundreds of articles and comments, not a single article, to draw the conclusion that public opinion all across the political spectrum is turning against the hardline pro-Gates position on this controversy. Believe what you will. - Sean McBride

Which is interesting, because that's not what you said. Also, I don't know what a "hardline pro-Gates position" is. I do see the misguided belief that there's a pro- or anti-gates side of things here. That kind of simplification is what you get from trendsurfing mass media and comments to form an opinion, I prefer just dealing with the facts. - Richard Lawler

Trendsurfing-- - Andrew C from Android

Without knowing the actual methodology of collection, I'd definitely be wary of trusting auto-generated stats. As someone else has noted quite cleverly, the plural of anecdote is not data. I realize it signifies nothing, but I find it amusing that a search on Google News for "Henry Louis Gates" yields articles primarily supportive of Gates. Even more amusing, one of the top articles... more... - Victor Ganata

In any case, while we might dwell and dissect the case at length, the bigger picture is that it has definitely opened up dialog on the problem of race, and the controversies in law enforcement, with racial profiling specifically, but with civil liberties in general. While I can't exactly give you a numeric ordering as to where this ranks with health care reform or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think it's hyperbolic to declare that these issues are completely trivial. - Victor Ganata

You people need to pay attention more. NPR said this is over and resolved. We can move on to the next non-news cycle please. - Matthew DeVries

Yeah, didn't Michael Jackson's autopsy report come out yet? - Victor Ganata

Richard and Victor: what URLs do you use to do quick and dirty content analysis on a topic like the Gates/Crowley controversy? These work for me: 1. Collecta: http://collecta.com/#q=gate... 2. Feedly: http://www.feedly.com/home#tr... 3. Friendfeed: https://friendfeed.com/search... 4. Google Blogs:... more... - Sean McBride

Here are two others: 1. Icerocket Blogs: http://www.icerocket.com/search... 2. Icerocket News: http://blogs.icerocket.com/search... I quickly scanned all these sources this morning, and I am not seeing much sympathy for Gates. Most people are not buying his narrative on the story. - Sean McBride

What content analysis am I doing? Really, people who are obsessed with rehashing this story days later this story are heavily biased? Is that supposed to be surprising in some way because I'm not surprised. However since I don't form my opinion based on the general feeling of icerocket blogs, I fail to see how its relevant to me. As a self stated contrarian, this doesn't seem odd to you? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I try to separate objective political analysis from my own political opinions as much as possible. I am fascinated by the science and technology of analyzing politics in ways that produce accurate predictions. As for the long life of this story: Barack Obama guaranteed that outcome from the moment he made not one, but two public statements on the issue. This story is going to be difficult to make go away at this point -- too many Americans have become overheated about it. - Sean McBride

Two impressions of Gates's site, The Root: http://www.theroot.com/ 1. Gates has permitted many comments to stand that are highly critical of himself -- that is impressive, and he deserves a large pile of points for that. 2. Quite a few comments appear multiple times -- is that a technical glitch at the site? - Sean McBride

I don't need to analyze politics to predict that a rich, overentitled (imo) black man being arrested for mouthing off to a policeman won't engender much sympathy from an overwhelmingly white blogosphere. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I don't see many black academic and opinion leaders rushing to take Gates' side in this mess. Have I missed them? Like the rest of us, most of them think this story is complicated and needs more facts and analysis to sort out. What will be critical is the eyewitness testimony and the tape of the proceedings. But Gates already wants to "move on" and Obama is begging for a truce. - Sean McBride

So, by your analysis, black "academic and opinion leaders" (I'm not sure who these people are) are like "the rest of us" in thinking the story is complicated and needs more facts to sort out, but at the same time, the majority of opinion is"unsympathetic to gates' version of events." Are the rest of us in the majority or not? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I think most people are skeptical about Gates' original claim that James Crowley was motivated by racism in an incident that has dominated the media for several days now -- and they are guessing that whatever new facts that do emerge won't support Gates. And most of them wouldn't have gotten in Crowley's face if they were in similar circumstances, on the grounds of simple... more... - Sean McBride

Excellent, thanks for answering my question directly. Now, exactly how many links would I need to provide to change your opinion on what black "academic and opinion leaders" think of the incident? Would 1 suffice, 5, 10, 20, 100? Oddly, to me, the article you linked to from Salon seemed very sympathetic to Gates' version of the events. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I will be glad to read any links you post. But we can we agree in the meantime that this story has taken turns that have not been good for Gates, Obama or Obama's political agenda? - Sean McBride

Richard -- let me add that the most disturbing aspect of this incident is that has unleashed torrents of *real* racism from many right-wing blogs and sources, and reminded me that Henry Louis Gates is definitely not being paranoid when he presumes that he lives in a world that is heavily populated by racist enemies. I just don't think that James Crowley is one of those enemies -- far from it. - Sean McBride

Why would I agree with any of those things? I've never understood what your opinion that "Gates has more to lose" was based on. As far as obama and his political agenda, I don't think this affects those at all. I don't know what the police officer is or is not an enemy of, but I don't think he was justified in arresting anyone in regards to that incident, and while I don't want to guess anything, I don't expect there will be any evidence that comes out to support the arrest. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- Obama and Gates have already indicated that they themselves believe that they have a great deal to lose -- that is why they are backing off from this conflict with haste. Crowley stood his ground, and they blinked. This guy has some serious backbone. - Sean McBride

If the way HLG was treated by Crowley is what people of color should expect from non-racists, then clearly all people of color are completely screwed. - Victor Ganata

I agree that Obama does have a lot to lose politically, but is that really surprising? I'm a little unclear as to what exactly HLG has to lose, though, that he already didn't lose when he was arrested for no good reason. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- one assumes that Gates would probably prefer not to be held responsible for turning much of the law enforcement community against Obama as the result of a false charge of racism and racial profiling. That worry perhaps explains his sudden eagerness to "move on" -- this story is not developing in a positive way for either Gates or Obama. One hopes that the White House meet, if... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- by the way, where I am coming from on this: I strongly supported Obama over Hillary in the campaign, and Obama over McCain in the election. I have mercilessly criticized members of my own "race" (ethnic group: Northern/Western European) repeatedly right here on Friendfeed -- Bill O'Reilly, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck, James Inhofe, John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Rush... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, maybe it's the failure of my imagination, but the only way this could possibly go completely wrong is if somehow they prove Gates should've been arrested after all, and that somehow he did break the law. As it stands, it looks like it was the wrong way for authorities to handle the situation. Could Gates have handled the situation better? Yes. But the outcome was entirely in Crowley's hands. - Victor Ganata

And from my perspective, it looks like opinion is only turning not because Gates is in the wrong more than Crowley, but because people are tired of talking about issues of race and the conflicts between law enforcement and people of color, which is not surprising, but is nevertheless really sad. - Victor Ganata

Sean, do you think Gates should have been arrested? if so, why were the charges dropped, and why did the Cambridge mayor offer an apology? if you think Gates shouldn't have been arrested, why do you suppose Crowley did it? - Karim

My take is not about who was wrong or right. I think things happen to move us in our spiritual development or evolution. Neither was wrong or right. But connecting with Gates' personality and having just arrived back from a return trip from China, he must have been exhausted. He was perturbed/annoyed and impatient. Didn't want to talk or be civil to a stranger at that moment. So he was... more... - Myrna

I still think it's wrong for a person to get arrested for something that isn't a crime. Normally, the libertarians would be all up in arms about something like this. - Victor Ganata

Victor, everything in life isn't about fair. We all have to learn lessons and move to next level. Sometimes something that is wrong or unfair is for a higher purpose, you know? (We meaning each or collectively.) - Myrna

For anyone to think that the left in the US cannot possibly be racist or biased is beyond me. That's just simply naive. So yes, you are going to get people from the left saying that he should have kept his mouth shut. And I don't understand how Obama's comments were so inflammatory. The mayor issued an apology. Meaning they were wrong. Meaning that Obama's view on the situation was... more... - Kandeezie

"No mention of race in Gates incident 911 call" http://www.necn.com/Boston... (Race had nothing to do with the call to the police that initiated this incident.) - Sean McBride

Karim -- I think the arrest was a bad idea, but not especially outrageous. People get arrested for disorderly conduct all the time, and according to reports from several eyewitnesses, Gates was agitated and abusive. The black police officer on the scene supported the arrest "100%" on the basis of his observations of the situation. I think the Cambridge Police Department withdrew the... more... - Sean McBride

Myrna -- you summarized the situation perfectly. See also an article by Jesse Washington in the AP today -- "Analysis: What they saw during the Gates arrest" -- with this money quote: "Neither man understood what the other man saw." (Jesse Washington covers race and ethnicity for The Associated Press.) http://www.google.com/hostedn... - Sean McBride

Victor -- if the police received a report that your residence was possibly the target of break-in in progress, wouldn't you, on *libertarian* grounds, want them to respond quickly and aggressively to the report? (Personal note: a friend of mine had his residence burglarized a few months ago, and lost thousands of dollars worth of electronics gear.) - Sean McBride

If an officer's first words to me were "step out of the house" (or something like it), not "hello" or "we've had reports of a break-in," I wouldn't be thanking him. A phrase like that is a sign that you're guilty until proven innocent. I don't appreciate that kind of hostility. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Victor -- I think that issues of police abuse of power against minorities *should* be talked about, and very loudly. But false accusations of racism and racial profiling only cloud the issue. - Sean McBride

Ok, so first you can politically analyze web traffic, then you can rationalize and mindread a reason for dismissing the charges that still justifies the original arrest. Are you still sure that most of these opinions of black academic and opinion leaders mirror your own? I see many that mention this idea of "neither sees what the other saw" in the context that one of them was able to... more... - Richard Lawler

Sean i'm more interested in what *you* think. so by "bad idea" you think Gates *shouldn't* have been arrested? then why was he arrested? assuming race played no role -- which is the point you keep hammering -- why was a 58-year-old Harvard professor, who walks with a cane, arrested on the front porch of his own home? - Karim

if something horrible happens and people come up with what *you* think is a crazy explanation for it, it's one thing to call it crazy, but you should be prepared to offer some other explanation that makes more sense. - Karim

Karim -- the arrest was a bad idea in retrospect, once we understand the full human situation, and who precisely it was that Crowley was confronting at that fateful moment on July 16. But Crowley wasn't in possession of that information when this confrontation began to unfold, and when Gates started pushing his hot buttons. But let's see what the tape reveals -- the Cambridge police are... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you didn't answer my question. You admit Gates shouldn't have been arrested, yet you have no explanation for why he was arrested. anyone attempting to explain the incident in the context of Obama's statement that "there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately" (which is a well documented, demonstrable fact) gets an argument from you, but you have no other explanation to replace it. - Karim

Karim -- I thought I did address that issue: neither Gates nor Crowley understood the situation in which they were enmeshed. and the confrontation quickly escalated and turned ugly. When you verbally abuse a police officer before a public gathering, there is always a good chance that you will be arrested for disorderly conduct, no matter what your race or ethnicity. That's the way the... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, "found themselves enmeshed" - how convenient for yet another life's lessons. That's how it happens..we find ourselves in the middle of some chaos and should ask ourselves, what's the lesson. And its not unfortunate, there are no mistakes. That's why we're here. It's a gift. :)))) - Myrna

Sean, that's the heart of the matter, really: that cops can not only arrest people for little to no cause, but also do things like beat the crap out of them and taser them when they're already down or shoot them 41 times when they're unarmed, and they rarely suffer severe repercussions, and that these things happen disproportionately to people of color. While, yeah, this the way the world works, it doesn't make it right. - Victor Ganata

Sean please explain how it can be a wrongful arrest -- as you said, "bad idea" -- and at the same time we somehow need some more facts to come in. the question is, based on what we know now, do you think it was a wrongful arrest, or not? as near as i can tell, you think it was wrong, but dismiss it by saying "That's the way the world works." you don't dismiss an injustice by saying it was predictable. - Karim

Victor -- incidents like you describe happen all the time in America, and should be protested and discussed very loudly. But I doubt that Obama would have heaped praise on Crowley and invited him to a friendly meeting at the White House if Crowley were that kind of cop. When advancing one's position in a policy discussion or debate (say, about racial profiling), it's usually a good idea... more... - Sean McBride

you are also putting Gates and Crowley on some kind of equal footing by saying neither "understood the situation in which they were enmeshed" and both were responsible for escalating the situation. but who's more responsible for acting like a grownup and de-escalating the situation? the sick, tired old man with a cane screaming "get off my lawn?" or the beefy young guy with a badge and gun and the authority to use both? - Karim

Karim -- arrests for disorderly conduct are a vague area, and are subject to a wide range of interpretations. I think "discretionary" is the operative term. To be honest, I will have no firm opinions about the arrest until I see the transcript, and know who was telling the truth and who was lying. Gates and Crowley can't both be telling the truth, because their stories are contradictory. - Sean McBride

hahaha Sean. ok first you repeatedly say the arrest was a "bad idea." now you are saying you have "no firm opinions." you can change your mind once more before lunch, you know. ;-) based on what we *currently* know, would you say it was a wrongful arrest or not? - Karim

It wasn't a wrongful unrest if you go to a deeper level or layer. If you want to stay on the superficial or obvious layer, have fun both of you. - Myrna

Karim -- I said that the arrest was a "bad idea" because it stirred up a ferocious shit storm that has knocked more important issues off the public agenda (for instance, HEALTH CARE -- that's the immediate context) and because from a discretionary standpoint Crowley should have probably ignored Gates' abusive language. How justified Crowley was in exercising his discretionary judgment in the way he did will be made clear one way or the other by the transcript, which we haven't seen yet. - Sean McBride

Sean -- you said twice earlier the arrest was a "bad idea" in response to my asking you whether Gates should have been arrested. the implication being, he shouldn't have been arrested. now it sounds like you are saying he shouldn't have been arrested -- NOT because he didn't do anything wrong, but because the arrest distracted us from health care. :-D ok. so, again, i ask you, was it a *wrongful* arrest or not? - Karim

Myrna, sorry, in this case i am sticking to the superficial facts-as-we-know-them layer and not the deeper Karmic wheels-of-justice layer. :-D - Karim

Karim -- police officers are legally within bounds in making arrests for disorderly conduct. Context is everything, and the degree of disorderliness. Arrests like this are sometime abusive and unfair, sometimes well-justified. Let's see the transcript. No eyewitness has yet stepped forward to contradict Crowley's side of the story. Let's get the facts. - Sean McBride

LOOOOL Karim, be my guest. I understand(on a deeper level) why you are reacting. - Myrna

And I don't think it has much to do with the cop or Gates. - Myrna

Sean, again, based on what we know now, do you think this fell into the "abusive and unfair" category of arrest, or the "obviously well-justified" arrest? - Karim

Karim -- I will be able to answer your question once I read the transcript carefully -- it should be out within a few days. - Sean McBride

Still lurking here. This is a crazy thread. Sean are u gonna hire an assistant soon? - Christopher Chung

Sean, so you have *no idea* whether the arrest was wrongful, but you are *sure* that it didn't involve racial bias? the fact that the police nolle prossed the case doesn't give you a clue as to whether it was wrongful? the fact that the mayor of Cambridge apologized doesn't give you a clue? the fact that we should presume innocence doesn't help, either? - Karim

Christopher -- actually, this discussion isn't too challenging or demanding. :) I just take an occasional glance at Google news and blog search feeds, note the most important new facts and keep adjusting my interpretation. But the story seems to keep unfolding in a very definite and consistent direction (see, for instance, the latest on the woman who made the 911 call). Both Obama and... more... - Sean McBride

"caved?" you mean like "police dropped all charges and the mayor apologized" caved? that kind of caved? - Karim

Karim -- I was referring to the kind of "cave" in which Gates suddenly wanted to "move on" and in which Obama walked back from his first remarks about the incident, heaped praise on the alleged racist rogue cop Crowley and invited him for a friendly meet and beer at the White House. This is one of the most bizarre situations I have seen develop in any presidency, and it is amazing that... more... - Sean McBride

Palin & Sanford aside, i'd still like to understand how you can have no opinion on whether the arrest was wrongful or abusive, yet you can be sure that anyone who suggests it was is wrong. how can you have no opinion about something, yet be convinced that someone who does have an opinion about it is wrong? - Karim

Karim -- the transcript? Facts? Look before you leap.... - Sean McBride

Sean it seems like your "look before you leap" advice should have been taken by the Cambridge police, who arrested a man and then decided not to press charges. what i'd like to know is why you are sure anyone who has an opinion formed about the role race might have played in this is wrong. or are you saying that race *might* have played a factor in the arrest, that maybe the cop IS racist after all, but we just need some more "facts" before coming to that conclusion? - Karim

If this was a clear-cut case for disorderly conduct, why were the charges dropped? You have to understand what it looks like you're arguing: that because Gates had a big mouth, he deserved to go to jail. - Victor Ganata

race aside, i'm wondering what ANY old man of ANY color could have yelled from his *own* front porch (after he has been mistaken for a burglar) that, in Sean's eyes, justifies the cops hauling him off to jail? wtf was wrong with the cops saying, "sorry, our mistake" and leaving? - Karim

Karim -- I don't want to keep going over the same ground repeatedly. If you review the previous comments in these threads, you will find a great deal of evidence that strongly undercuts the charge that Crowley is a racist. Take a good look at the facts on that particular issue -- before you leap to assumptions that are easy to knock down. - Sean McBride

Sean, there's evidence for and evidence against. would you admit -- since you claim to have no opinion, since you want all the facts in, etc. -- that it's *possible* racial bias was a factor here? - Karim

The evidence *so far* is 100% against the charge of racism, and it is very substantial and meaningful evidence. - Sean McBride

"so far?" what happened to all this "look before you leap" shit? it sounds like your mind is made up. - Karim

LLL - I heard about it before Obama said anything, but then again, I pay attention to higher ed news services and academic blogs. I don't think it would have received this much attention if Obama hadn't answered that reporter's question, though. - Katy S

Sean, the evidence *so far* is 100% against the idea that Gates should have been arrested at all. the only reason Gates got arrested was the cop kept saying "i'll be outside" because the cop knew he couldn't arrest Gates in his own house. but you're so desperate to acquit the cop of racism that you miss the wrongful arrest. - Karim

LLL - It was pretty huge - I mean, there were nearly 10 topics on my FF feed (everyone's subscriber list is different, of course) the day it first got reported. I think it was national news right away because of Gates' stature. - Andrew C

Sean, unless someone has a mind-reading device that they haven't told the world about, there's no way to disprove that race motivated his actions. And the only way to actually prove it would be if Crowley told the world that "Yes, race motivated my actions." All the things you've listed are circumstantial evidence. As many have said, you can be the most racially sensitive, most well... more... - Victor Ganata

LLL - I agree. As far as academics go, Gates is pretty well-known so it was bound to get some notice. If nothing else, the case is opening up discussions about the way(s) race and ethnicity often color interactions between the police and citizens. - Katy S

I actually didn't think Obama's comments were that "out there." He mentioned first that they were friends and that he didn't have all of the info. he mentioned the historical/cultural reasons this is a touchy topic. He probably shouldn't have used the word "stupidly," but when he said that I heard it more as coming from a lawyer who suspected the charges wouldn't stand. He's never backed down about the fact that he thinks it was an unnecessary arrest - he's just said that he worded it poorly. - Katy S

I don't know why he chose to answer the question - that's probably a complex issue too. :-) He could have declined, but then maybe it's better that people are talking about the issue, even if they aren't always listening to each other. Side note personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There... more... - Katy S

Victor -- isn't the American way innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent? Many pro-Israel activists (including many non-Jewish pro-Israel activists) have been accusing Barack Obama of antisemitism in recent months because of his sharp conflicts with the Israeli government over settlements and Iran. The attacking language is often harsh and strident. Should we... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- "so far" was a big flag indicating that my mind was wide open to any new evidence that might prove that Crowley is a racist. - Sean McBride

If you want to discuss racism in contemporary American society, the birthers provide a much more solid platform than the Gates affair. The birthers are brimming over with easily provable racist attitudes, and going after them provides no risk (as in the Gates affair) of being unceremoniously upended and embarrassed by the facts. - Sean McBride

Katy and LLL: when Obama injected himself into the Gates controversy in the way he did, he made the biggest political mistake of his life to date (in my opinion). My mind was immediately boggled, and still is. He is usually much smarter than this. - Sean McBride

Sean. Sean. Sean. Police brutality exists. Racial profiling exists. You're in a bubble! This guy is not excusable just because he once resuscitated a black athlete. The best thing about this controversy is that thousands of african-american men are talking about their experiences with the cops. Do you deny their stories? - anna sauce

A mistake with whom? The only people I really see getting upset about this (Obama commenting) are white men. (with a few exceptions) - Katy S

Sean, that sounds hypocritical. you believe Crowley isn't a racist, but you have "no opinion" on whether the arrest was wrongful. incomplete evidence isn't sufficient for you on the charge of wrongful arrest, but it is good enough for you on the charge of racism. You absolve Crowley of racism, but when it comes to Gates' arrest... hey, we gotta wait 'till all the facts are in, right? - Karim

and it was NOT the biggest political mistake of Obama's life. Jesus. our first black president, what, he's suppose to sidestep a question about the most famous black scholar in the country getting arrested on trumped-up charges? as a state senator, Obama sponsored the Illinois Traffic Stops Statistics Act to *combat* racial profiling. in his presidential campaign he pledged to BAN racial profiling. you expect him to just let this slide? - Karim

A well-informed, intelligent and nuanced discussion of the issues surrounding Officer Crowley's behavior at the Gates' residence: "Brandon del Pozo is a captain in the NYPD (now working for Internal Affairs on internal police corruption cases, but with plenty of experience as a beat cop in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and as a police instructor too). He is also a Ph.D. candidate in... more... - Sean McBride

Ok -- one of the tapes has now made its appearance http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race... We can safely dismiss the charge that Lucia Whalen (the woman who made the call) was guilty of racism or racial profiling. Many people owe her a big apology. (The Chicago Tribune reports, apropos not much of importance, that she "has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent.") - Sean McBride

More: "Cambridge releases Gates arrest 911 tapes" http://www.bostonherald.com/news... - Sean McBride

Sean, funny you didn't mention this part: " But Haas admitted that Crowley's police report did refer to race. " - anna sauce

Anna -- I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. One usually can't go wrong by waiting for all the facts to tumble in and sort themselves out. - Sean McBride

From the Wall Street Journal: "Wendy Murphy, Ms. Whalen's attorney, said her client has received threats from those who felt her actions were motivated by race. Ms. Murphy, who noted Ms. Whalen didn't bring up race in her 911 call, said she "feels that she did the right thing" and Ms. Whalen doesn't have "any regrets about how she reported what she saw."" Threats -- from people who jumped to the false conclusion that she was a racist. http://online.wsj.com/article... - Sean McBride

Ok -- here comes the flood: http://news.google.com/news... - Sean McBride

"Uncooperative gentleman," delivered in a calm voice. "Gentleman" could be a racist code word of some kind, I guess. - Sean McBride

Sean, nice that you wait for judgement on Crowley, but not for anyone else in that case. - anna sauce

Anna -- can you explain what you mean? Where have I jumped ahead of the facts? - Sean McBride

re: my last comment, you said, "I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. " - anna sauce

And? Are you sure you know why the passage appeared in the report? - Sean McBride

I suspect her point is that you have clearly staked out positions on Gates (did you ever find a sourced claim for that "do you know who I am?" thing upthread?) while finding every possible reason not to for Crowley. - Andrew C

Sean, innocent until proven guilty only applies to criminal cases. Racism isn't a crime in of itself. It's not something that can really be proven. Once again, you can subconsciously commit a racist act without actually being an out-and-out racist, which I've never claimed Crowley is. - Victor Ganata

Andrew -- you couldn't be more wrong. Everything I've stated to date about Gates and Crowley reflect the facts as we know them to date. It strikes me that some people here have a strong emotional stake in painting this as a incident of racism and racial profiling -- they made up their minds from the moment the story broke, and the emotion comes through loud and clear in their language.... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- do you think that Barack Obama is an antisemite? Is the charge fair? - Sean McBride

Sean, I don't think it's fair, but I can see how Obama's actions can be construed as such, and I don't think there's any real way to prove one way or the other, certainly to the level where it would satisfy his detractors. I honestly think it would be a waste of time to try, too. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- that's exactly the answer I would have provided to my own question. :) - Sean McBride

Sean - "reflect the facts as we know them to date." -- such as the still unsourced "do you know who I am?" thing? - Andrew C

Andrew -- you're digging yourself into big hole on that remark. Go back and read what Gates said according to the report. He tried to pull rank on Crowley by warning Crowley that he didn't know who he was messing with. Did you even read the report? - Sean McBride

Yes. So you admit that your supposedly verbatim quote -- which you never did walk back -- was made up, then? - Andrew C

I cannot believe I'm being lectured about not jumping to conclusions or rushing to judgment by someone who wrote upthread "Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism." - Andrew C

Here you go, Andrew: http://www.google.com/#q=gate... The quote was a perfectly accurate paraphrase of what Gates actually said. - Sean McBride

paraphrase != quote. - Andrew C

The actual quote is more damning than the paraphrase -- you're grasping at straws. And it demonstrates perfectly the classism in play in this incident. - Sean McBride

Sean, quoting a report that is quoting someone else is not primary source, it's as the reporting policeman recalled. And if you think a lecture is one sentence, um, we have bigger issues here. - anna sauce

The fact that Ms. Whalen didn't mention any racial identifiers signifies nothing. What prompted her to call it in the first place? I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she's the type of person who does these sorts of things, and yeah, if my house was being robbed, I'd like someone to report it. On the other hand, if I'm trying to get into my house and my lock is... more... - Victor Ganata

Why dismiss the charges? - J. Abdul-Qahhar

If there were no ulterior motives behind the arrest and HLG had in fact committed a crime in the presence of a Law Enforcement Official, then why aren't they (the police department) pursuing it? - J. Abdul-Qahhar

man this story just keeps getting better. Crowley's police report says Whalen (the 911 caller) told him about "two black males." on the other hand, Whalen is now saying she never said anything about black men. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl...) so either 1) Crowley is lying in his police report or 2) Whalen is lying. hmmmmmmmm. Crowleeeeeeey... joo got some esplainin' to dooooo.... - Karim

Victor -- in communities like Cambridge and environs it's considered to be a sign of good citizenship to err on the side of caution in reporting possible crimes in progress, because they do in fact happen quite often. If the reports turn out to be a false hit, nothing lost. Lucia Whalen did the right thing in calling in the report, and Crowley did the right thing in aggressively... more... - Sean McBride

So who do you think has their story wrong, Sean? Is Whalen lying when she said she never told Crowley about "black men?" Or -- shudder to think -- is it possible a white police officer isn't being 100% truthful about a race-related incident? - Karim

Sean - to repeat what I said before (and I'm saying this as a well-educated white female): "personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There are folks out there who impersonate cops and I know of more than one instance where they have done this with the intent to assault/rape people " If that... more... - Katy S

Karim, thanks for that link. That USA today blog also notes that the police report says they talked to Whalen on the scene before approaching the house (see also the PDF), while Whalen says the extent of their in-person interaction was that she identified herself as the 911 caller and Crowley told her to keep her distance from the house ... and _no_ officer interviewed her at the scene. - Andrew C

From The New York Times today: "James M. Crowley’s initial response was to a bare-bones report of a crime in process in a neighborhood that had seen 23 cases of breaking and entering so far this year, many during daylight hours." - Sean McBride

From The New York Times today: "More than once on that afternoon, Professor Gates told Sergeant Crowley, “You don’t know who you’re messing with,” according to the police report. But one of Sergeant Crowley’s friends in Natick, Mass., where he lives with his wife and three children, said, “The professor didn’t know who he was messing with.”" - Sean McBride

From The New York Times today: "For the past five years, Sergeant Crowley has taught fellow officers at the Lowell Police Academy how to avoid racial profiling, after being selected for the job by a former police commissioner, Ronny Watson, who is black. “Stellar,” a black Cambridge police lieutenant said in describing him." - Sean McBride

Someone who would arrest him for just talking? - Richard Lawler

Someone whose police report differs substantially from the eyewitness's? - Andrew C

Racist or not, when he showed the cop it was HIS HOUSE, they should have buggered off, irrespective of what Gates said about their mommmas. - Will Higgins™

The fascinating thing about this New York Times article -- "2 Cambridge Worlds Collide in Unlikely Meeting" http://www.nytimes.com/2009... -- the extreme caution. It's careful not to take sides, and seems to be waiting for new information to emerge to make sense of the story. - Sean McBride

Sean, my point is, you can think you're doing the right thing, but in the end, what matters is the outcome, and the outcome in this case was not good, unless you happen to think that it's a good thing that the resident of the house you thought was being broken into ends up getting arrested. In general, is it a good idea to call the cops if you think someone is being burglarized? Sure. But in this specific instance, it was the wrong thing to do. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- did you notice that this neighborhood has suffered 23 break-ins, most of them during the day, since the beginning of this year? (Reported in The New York Times today.) - Sean McBride

OK, so Whalen may have not mentioned anything about black men, but you've got to love this quote: "When pressed by the 911 dispatcher, Whalen said she did not want to speculate, but said one of them might have been Hispanic, Murphy says." http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... If you don't want to speculate, why do it? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- one presumes she speculated because she was pressed by the police (the dispatcher) to help provide some identifying features of the suspects. Seems reasonable. One is struck by how careful she was not to exaggerate or sensationalize what was going on. There is not even the slightest hint of a racist agenda on this tape -- totally the opposite. - Sean McBride

Reasonable to you, perhaps. If race isn't supposed to be a factor, why make it explicit? She could've just as easily not tried to guess. Once again, you don't have to have a racist agenda in order to commit a racist act, or to make decisions subconsciously influenced by race. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- if you've got suspects in a crime or suspected crime, isn't their physical appearance as defined by race or ethnicity (and all other dimensions and parameters) highly relevant? White? Asian? Black? Hispanic? Arab? That has nothing to do with profiling or racism, and everything to do with narrowing down the field of search. - Sean McBride

Except she was wrong. Why bring it up if you don't know? - Victor Ganata

When you're doing police work, I imagine you rely on every scrap of info you can get your hands on, no matter how weak or peripheral -- you might get lucky. At least that's the way they always portray it in the Jeffrey Deaver-style detective novels. :) The trick is to rate those scraps for reliability and probablility in a way that reflects reality. A guess or vague impression is better than nothing if you've got nothing. - Sean McBride

Well, I'm not a cop, so I don't know how useful a wrong guess is, but I wonder if it just doesn't make it worse for cops and for their relationships to minority communities any time they end up completely misidentifying what ethnic group to narrow their suspicions down to. - Victor Ganata

In many cases they are identifying members of the majority group -- whites. It would be a waste of time to search for African-Americans if the suspects were white. These basic common-sense police methods have nothing to do with racial profiling. What would be wrong would be to the make the presumption, without any evidence, that a crime was committed by a minority or that a member of a minority committed a crime. - Sean McBride

Sean, i had asked you earlier which person you thought was not telling the truth, Whalen or Crowley. given that their stories are not compatible with each other. EDIT: see http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... for discrepancy - Karim

Karim -- that discrepancy is quite interesting, and should be explained. But whatever the explanation, it will not have as much effect on the controversy as videos like this one: video(Black Cambridge Cops Back Crowley- "I Won't Vote For Obama Again" ... http://www.youtube.com/watch...) - Sean McBride

*blink* really? still? - Matthew DeVries

"Colin Powell on Gates: “You Don’t Argue With A Police Officer”" http://www.mediaite.com/tv... Powell: "I would say, the first teaching point is when you’re faced with an officer trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something. This is not the time to get in an argument with him. I was taught that as a child. You don’t... more... - Sean McBride

Police are just people, too, They are by no means perfect. They're folks who haven't been convicted of crimes, but it doesn't mean they haven't committed any or won't. I heard about a cop (from people who worked with him) who was busted driving drunk, and his folks took care of it. They have a code, too, which involves supporting each other, right or wrong. It doesn't mean we should be... more... - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Also, given those discrepancies, why has Mr "let's you guys wait till all the facts are in, cause I bet they'll all support Crowley's version" not changed his tune even a smidge? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- isn't it about time for you to admit defeat regarding this particular controversy? Obama and Gates were losers in a political firestorm which never should have made the local newspapers, and which was triggered by Gates' monumentally bad judgment. Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House. If you don't like this outcome, take it up with Obama. - Sean McBride

So, I guess you're also implicitly walking back your stance about waiting for all the facts, the ones that were sure to square with Crowley's version of the story. - Andrew C

I've seen enough facts now to know that the story has been substantially resolved and that everyone is going to move on to more substantial issues, thank God. Crowley came out of this in much better shape than Gates, which is what I suspected would happen from the outset. I didn't buy the Rodney King narrative. - Sean McBride

Sean, 300+ comments, this is nutty! Any how, I was thinking: You repeatedly bring up good arguments/sources as to why Gates was out of line. I think that can be granted, as Colin Powell says right here, that Gates acted less than ideally. And you also keep framing it as a political/news issue - OK, Obama is a "loser" in the PR aspect of it. But what about the truth of the matter? Was... more... - Christopher Chung

Christopher -- Crowley's testimonials from his African-American coworkers -- those who know him best -- combined with his track record -- are going to carry much more weight with public opinion than the speculations of people who don't know him at all and who are speculating about his "subconscious" racism. This story is essentially over. Gates wants to move on, and we should oblige him. - Sean McBride

I'm not saying that others shouldn't post criticism of Crowley in this thread -- feel free to go ahead. - Sean McBride

I think it's been pretty well demonstrated that Crowley ISN'T a racist, I agree with you Sean. But someone (everyone) can act out of racial bias, racist or not. I would certainly say that I am not a racist, and most ppl I know would attest to that. But I live in a black neighborhood and sometimes I catch myself, and I'm embarrassed when I do, automatically being slightly more aware when... more... - Christopher Chung

A few points: (1) Just because a white officer does something wrong to a black civilian doesn't make it a racist, or even racially motivated act. (2) Pointing out (1) has nothing to do with "want[ing] to protect rights, unless the person is non-white". It has to do with logic and reason, and insisting that people not allow themselves to imagine that correlation implies causation. (3)... more... - Karl Knechtel

Christopher -- I couldn't agree more: the role of often unconscious racism and racial profiling in American society (and all societies around the world) requires continuous concern, attention and discussion, completely apart from the Gates/Crowley incident. A subject that greatly interests me is ethnocentrism in politics (and the xenophobia which often accompanies it). And I feel... more... - Sean McBride

"Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House." Hey, wait, how come Crowley got invited to the White House, so clearly he wasn't in the wrong, but Gates also got invited to the same get-together and yet you think Gates /was/ [more] in the wrong? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- for a US president and a Harvard star professor to bend to a police sergeant and dramatically reverse themselves is quite a big deal -- that's the major story here. You can parse and apportion the rights and wrongs between Gates and Crowley any way you like. Colin Powell is making sense to me on the subject. - Sean McBride

As usual, the Daily Show nailed it. - Edward Zwart

"I think what got under Crowley's skin was not Gates' race, but his snotty attitude, combined with the threat to pull rank." You are an exceptional mind-reader and your talents are being wasted on FF. - Andrew C

"Harvard Prof Gates Is Half-Irish, Related to Cop Who Arrested Him" http://abcnews.go.com/Politic... "Henry Louis Gates Jr., the black professor at the center of the racial story involving his arrest outside his Harvard University-owned house, has spoken proudly of his Irish roots. Strangely enough, he and the Cambridge, Mass., police officer who arrested him, Sgt. James Crowley, both trace their ancestry back to the legendary Niall of the Nine Hostages." - Sean McBride

NBC/WSJ poll: Gates more at fault - First Read - msnbc.com http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive... "Here's our first tease of tonight's NBC/WSJ poll: By a 27%-11% margin, Americans say that Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was more at fault for his recent arrest than the Cambridge police officer was. But a greater number, 29%, believe that both were equally at fault. And 31% say they didn't know enough to have an opinion." - Sean McBride

Emotional 911 caller speaks following Gates arrest http://www.bostonherald.com/news... "Lucia Whalen, the woman who called 911 on a possible break-in at a Harvard professor’s Cambridge home triggering what has become a national debate on race, said today she has been left shaken for doing her civic duty. “The criticism at first was so painful for me ... I... more... - Sean McBride

More: "Whalen’s attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client was the only one involved who kept her cool - including President Obama. “The one person who should get an award is being ignored,” said Murphy. “There has been zero attention paid to that and I think it’s strange.” Murphy said the president, the cop and the professor all overreacted and acted “badly.”" Murphy nails it -- and that is why Obama and Gates backed down. - Sean McBride

LOL, still on this? - Richard Lawler

Andrew Sullivan: "The Gates-Crowley Stand-Off Explained: They're both micks. Like me. They often get mad." - Sean McBride

Gates is a mick? - Christopher Chung

If I understand the facts, Gates is as much a mick as he is an African-American -- and that explains a lot. :) Perhaps this was basically an Irish bar fight. :) - Sean McBride

Lol that's awesome. they're relatives! - Christopher Chung

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politic... - Christopher Chung

The Irish understand much about losing tempers in sometimes irrational ways -- so perhaps Crowley and Gates will in truth be able to arrive at a mutual understanding. (I can see it now: I will be accused of racially profiling the Irish. :)) It turns out that Obama also has some Irish blood, but he has superb anger management skills. - Sean McBride

Sean, well i was asking who YOU thought was lying specifically, Whalen or Crowley. they can't both be telling the truth. given that either the person who called 911 OR the arresting officer is lying, don't you think that has an impact on the story? - Karim

Whalen's story is at least corroborated by the 911 call. Where does that leave Crowley? - Karim

http://www.bostonherald.com/news... -- not that Sean will want to jump to any conclusions ;-) - Karim

What that article is all about: "Officer Justin Barrett, 36, a two-year veteran assigned to District B-3, was placed on administrative leave pending a termination hearing yesterday afternoon. When a supervisor confronted Barrett about the e-mail - in which he called Gates a “jungle monkey” - he admitted to being the author, according to officials. Police Commissioner Edward Davis... more... - Sean McBride

"jungle monkey" - Srsly? day-um. - MikeAmundsen

And he immediately lost his gun and badge. - Sean McBride

well, this should make for quite an interesting "beer summit" tomorrow! - MikeAmundsen

The Gates/Crowley brewhaha -- I can't be the first one to have thought of that. - Sean McBride

"And he immediately lost his gun and badge." And what other response could they've made, with public scrutiny on them? Do you think that teaching a class on profiling makes Crowley incapable of it? I could think he was asked to do a job and did it, no matter how he feels. Sorry, I've had opportunity to mix socially with peace officers, and they're just human beings w/ egos. Racism? Maybe not. It could have been a case of "You must RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY." (Cartman-style) Cops get that way, too. I've seen it. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

No opinion on whether Whalen or Crowley is lying, Sean? Even though one of them has to be? :-D - Karim

I'm waiting to see if there is any official response about the discrepancy. What do you envision unfolding from this particular aspect of the story? - Sean McBride

Did Skip Gates comment hurt Obama's popularity? Check out these numbers http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing... "President Obama's job approval rating is down. The latest Gallup poll shows a drop of three points on the week, to 56%, the largest week-to-week slide in his young presidency and a striking fall from his high of 66% in May. And the question is, why?" - Sean McBride

And the fact that the economy is still deep in the toilet and the GOP has been releasing a deluge of propaganda against health care reform has absolutely nothing to do with it? - Victor Ganata

Probably the failure of the stimulus so far to improve the economy significantly (or at all) is the main cause, although one sees little positive commentary from anyone on how Obama initially handled the Gates story. - Sean McBride

From whence do you expect an "official response," Sean? Whalen has already given her "official response," via her lawyer and press conference. Crowley has filed his official police report that contains a conversation with Whalen that Whalen says never happened. - Karim

I am waiting to see if the Cambridge Police Department or Crowley comment on this particular point -- there are several possible explanations, and I am not going to leap to conclusions. - Sean McBride

Funny, you did days ago when you said all eyewitness testimony would land squarely on Crowley's side. - Andrew C

What do i envision unfolding? i'm not sure. if Whalen lied, i don't know if there would be any legal ramifications. if Crowley lied on his police report, don't you think there should be some ramifications for that? i mean, how much can you trust a policeman who makes things up about what really happened? - Karim

Andrew -- am I wrong in getting the impression that you and quite a few other people have an enormous emotional investment in putting the most racist spin possible on this story? Why is that? It would be very much better for the country, and for the Obama administration, is this were not a major racist incident. What exactly is the payoff for those who want to push the story as hard as possible in that direction? - Sean McBride

If Crowley lied, that would be a serious matter, of course. So: did he lie? - Sean McBride

Whalen being the liar seems less likely at this point, after the release of the 911 call. she had NOTHING to say about race at all, until she was prompted by the police dispatcher, and even then she said, quote, "Well, there were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic, but I’m not really sure." it doesn't make sense that she'd go from not caring/unsure about race during the 911 call, to explicitly talking about "two black males" when Crowley showed up, as Crowley said she did in his police report. - Karim

i mean, this woman answered a question about *race* with "Well, there two *larger* men" :-D and *maybe* one of them was *kind of* Hispanic. then Crowley rolls up and (according to his police report) she's all OMG TWO BLACK MALES WITH BACKPACKS!!! please. Crowley's story doesn't add up. - Karim

There is definitely a problem with that passage in the report -- everyone has noticed it. And pressure should be applied strongly to get answers for why it appeared. - Sean McBride

the question i've been asking is if YOU think that's even *possible.* all your comments in this thread have absolved Crowley of even the suggestion of misconduct or racism, while placing the blame squarely on Gates' shoulders, claiming that he overreacted, that the other officers supported Crowley (as if that were proof of his innocence), that the web zeitgeist as determined by you was against Obama, etc. etc. ad nauseam. no no no Crowley can't be a racist, he has a Michael Jackson album on his iPod! - Karim

if you put 10% of the effort into scrutinizing Crowley's police report that you did criticizing Gates and Obama, it might occur to you that the real victim here is possibly NOT some cop who people thought might be racist. - Karim

again, this isn't some minor detail, some minor discrepancy, some subjective difference about whether it was yelling or tumultuous. this was a cop saying he had a conversation with a person who says the conversation NEVER HAPPENED. that's not a minor detail. - Karim

Karim++ - Andrew C

And Sean, right back at you at "an enormous emotional investment", considering you're by far the most vocal person on this topic and nearly everything you've shared here has been slanted one way, up to and including quoting some bits that support your position and leaving other bits out. - Andrew C

Karim -- both Obama and Gates THEMSELVES have backed off from attacking Crowley for misconduct or racism -- and certainly Gates understands the situation much better than you do -- he was a principal in that situation. I imagine that both you and Andrew will be frustrated and angry if Gates doesn't sue Crowley and the CPD and if all parties to the event manage to settle it peaceably and amicably. My question again is, why? Do you feel more personally offended by what happened than Gates himself? - Sean McBride

Sean, i guess every time a black man gets abused by the police you want the black man to smile for the camera and ask "Can we all just get along?" :-D seriously, this particular incident doesn't mean that much to me: this shit happens EVERY DAY. the novelty here is that the black man is a MacArthur genius grant recipient, Harvard prof, holder of multiple doctoral degrees, recipient of... more... - Karim

what i have found galling is YOUR attitude, your hypocrisy, Sean. you hold Crowley blameless, but have "no opinion" on whether it was a wrongful arrest or not. i guess white cops are innocent by default, but you have to wait until "all the facts are in" with black men? you said the arrest was a "bad idea" more than once, then you backpedaled and said it was a "bad idea" because it was a *distraction*, not because an old man should have the right to be upset in his own house. - Karim

Sean, you'd think you'd look at all the people disagreeing with you in this thread, and notice the dearth of people supporting you, and maybe it would have occurred to you at some point that you WEREN'T being as unbiased and impartial as you imagined yourself to be, but you've been completely tone deaf. someone raises a good point and you ignore it, or bring up a non sequitur to "prove"... more... - Karim

Karim -- my position is precisely the same as Obama and Gates: mistakes were made by both parties, and it is time to move on. Why are you and Andrew taking a harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Please explain. - Sean McBride

Sean, how am i "taking a harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates exactly? as i said, i'm more galled at your stream of bullshit than anything else. if Cambridge has one more or one less racist cop on their payroll, it doesn't affect me. - Karim

Karim -- many people disagreed with me in my opposition to the Bush 43 administration, to the Iraq War, to torture and on many other issues. So what? I got it right on those issues from my perspective, and I got it right for the most part on this Gates melodrama -- Obama and Gates moved to positions I advocated days before they adopted them. They obviously haven't the slightest interest in going down the same path as you and Andrew because they recognize that to do so would be a political disaster. - Sean McBride

To get back squarely on point: if a cop comes to your door to investigate a possible break-in in progress, and with the objective of protecting your property, you cooperate reasonably with the cop. Every sane and rational person understands this. If you verbally abuse the cop at length, you may well find yourself in the middle of an unpleasant incident. Colin Powell gets it. Obama gets... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- you're kidding, right? How can you possibly not understand that you are taking a much harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Are they continuing to launch angry attacks on Crowley and the CPD? Or have they adopted a conciliatory tone over the last week? What is tomorrow's meeting at the White House all about? - Sean McBride

Sean so all this is about how you were vindicated and the political masters of the universe were wrong? seriously, that's pathetic. yeah many people might have disagreed with you about Bush or Iraq or torture, but i'm sure people would have *AGREED* with you, too. not *everyone* would have been saying, "Torture is wonderful! Sean, you are an idiot!" it is one thing to be in the minority... more... - Karim

No, Sean, i'm not kidding. you said i am taking a "harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates. please explain how this is true. if i'm taking a hard line on anything, it's your ridiculous support of police arresting a man in his own home. - Karim

Karim: this is an excellent example of the Big Lie: "you are the *only one* supporting the police arresting a member of a minority in his own home." I am trying to give you some leeway because I can see you are more emotionally worked up about this incident than even Gates and aren't thinking clearly, but that doesn't come close to stating my position. Go back and read my posts in this... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, if i'm angry at anything, it's your support of police arresting a man in his own home -- especially when there is a 100% chance than either the police OR the person who called them LIED. - Karim

gee Sean, thanks for the "leeway." :-D how exactly am i not thinking clearly, in your opinion? - Karim

Sean, if you are a cop walking uninvited into someone's home, and the man who lives there requests that you identify yourself, you're supposed to do that too. is your point that disagreeing with the police in your home predictably results in arrest, or that it *deserves* arrest? or does it deserve arrest only if you're black? :-D - Karim

wait, let me guess -- you have "no opinion" on whether it's a good thing for the police to arrest people in their own homes, because "all the facts aren't in?" :-D - Karim

Karim -- we are so far from having a rational conversation on this subject that I don't feel motivated to rehash all the distortions you have posted on my posts. You are not accurately paraphrasing my posts or points, and I don't have the time or energy to keep correcting all your errors. I never came close to saying that I support the police arresting "minorities in their own homes." The charge on your part is completely off the wall. - Sean McBride

ok, so you're saying the arrest was WRONG then? because quite a few comments ago i kept asking you if it was a wrongful arrest and you had no opinion on the subject. - Karim

Gates' arrest was either wrong or it wasn't. you haven't said it was wrong. you said it was a "bad idea," then you backpedaled and said it was bad only because it "distracted" the country from more important things. so you have yet to go on the record and say, point blank, the arrest was wrong. without saying that, and with your unwavering support of Crowley, it only seems logical to conclude you think the arrest of Gates was justified. - Karim

i'm just trying to determine whether you support the arrest of innocent people in their own homes on general principle, or whether your rule applies only to uppity black people in particular. lol - Karim

Karim -- you are still not even close to accurately summarizing the statements I made previously. When you succeed in doing so, I'll respond. - Sean McBride

how am i incorrectly summarizing? i'm not trying to make you look like more of a moron than you already appear :-D you have repeatedly supported Crowley, you have said more than once that it was reasonable to expect Gates would be arrested, you have said the arrest of Gates was bad only because it was a distraction from health care -- so what am i getting wrong, here? you support the arrest, do you not? or is that too tricky a question? - Karim

Lucia Whalen's attorney, Wendy Murphy: "Gates, Crowley and Obama have “special training” in race relations and still overreacted, said Whalen’s lawyer, Wendy Murphy, today at the news conference. Whalen, who Murphy said is the only person who acted appropriately in the controversy, also is the only one not going to the White House for beer." (Harvard’s Gates 911 Caller Says She Would Do It Again http://www.bloomberg.com/apps...) - Sean McBride

oh snap, another non sequitur? i guess that was easier than saying "Gates shouldn't have been arrested." you probably choked on the words, huh? :-D - Karim

Karim -- you are still not remotely close to accurately paraphrasing my previous comments. You are much too excited about this topic to pursue a rational discussion about it. I suggest you follow the example of Obama and Gates and calm down. If you continue to be personally abusive (you just called me a moron), I am going to block you. - Sean McBride

dude feel free to block away. i didn't call you a moron -- i said i didn't make you look MORE like a moron than you already appear. maybe you can't parse the difference, but that's probably because you're too emotionally invested in the topic and aren't thinking clearly. ;-) - Karim

Karim -- presently I have only one person on my block list -- I am usually very patient in dealing with people who disagree with me. Do you want me to block you? I don't want to do so, but perhaps that would be the right thing to do. I enjoy disagreements that produce rational debate. But when parties to debates systematically distort the positions of their opponents and don't listen,... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, don't ask *me* whether you should block *me.* do whatever the hell you want to do. i'm not intentionally trying to misrepresent you. it appears to me from your comments in this thread that you *support* the arrest of Gates, and when i've asked you very simply, yes or no, do you, you have refused to answer. if that makes me blockworthy then block away! :-D - Karim

I DON"T support the arrest of Gates, and never said I did, In fact, I said I opposed it. What I wondered was to what degree Gates' language may have contributed to Crowley's belief (and that of his fellow non-white officers) that he was within legal bounds in exercising discretionary judgment in arresting Gates for disorderly conduct. We will never know for sure just how abusive the... more... - Sean McBride

you have repeatedly said how the arrest of Gates was predictable while simultaneously refusing to say it was wrong -- remember how you changed your mind about it being a "bad idea?" -- and frankly it seems like hairsplitting to say you don't know to what degree Gates' language made him *deserve* being arrested. what, in your opinion, can an old man say from the front porch of his own... more... - Karim

the point is not that we'll never know *how* abusive the language was because it wasn't captured on tape. the point is that you seem to think there is SOME language that an elderly Harvard professor knows how to use on the front porch of his own home (after he has been mistaken for a burglar and is legitimately upset) that *justifies* his being arrested and thrown in jail. have i summarized your point of view correctly or not? - Karim

once it became clear that Gates was the legal occupant of the home, that should have been it. whatever he yelled from the foyer, whatever he yelled from the porch, Crowley should have gotten in the police car and left. end of story. what could Gates *possibly* say that justifies Crowley turning around and hauling him off to jail? - Karim

Crowley's police report says seven people appeared surprised or startled at Gates yelling from his porch. Does that justify dragging him off to jail? Second point: why was the crowd there in the first place? Because *Crowley* told the dispatcher to keep the *police cars coming.* So the "crowd" of 7 people who were "startled" at the angry old man were probably only there because they were rubbernecking the scene of half a dozen cop cars that Crowley was responsible for summoning! - Karim

Karim -- you just demonstrated once again that you are unable to paraphrase my comments. You're arguing with straw men. What I am clearly saying is this: the world is more complicated than being right or wrong; often being smart or stupid is more consequential than being right or wrong. Verbally attacking cops is usually not smart and may often lead to unhappy consequences, whether... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, do you really believe that the turmoil this incident provoked didn't exist beforehand? That race relations, particularly between law enforcement and people of color, were fine before Crowley stepped through Gates' door? And that Obama and Gates can actually do anything to quell what's been stirred up? I really fail to see the damage it has done to Obama. The people who are most... more... - Victor Ganata

What damage has been done to gates btw - Richard Lawler

Well, people who didn't really like Gates before have said things like he should have remembered the 'black tax'... - Andrew C

Victor -- why do you think that both Obama and Gates suddenly reversed themselves on this issue? What were their political calculations? - Sean McBride

Now yet another black leader, Eric Holder, has weighed in and suggests that both Gates and Crowley may have made misjudgments (the same argument made by Obama and Colin Powell). http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009... (I don't endorse this website, by the way -- but the video link is solid.) - Sean McBride

"A new national poll released this afternoon says that more Americans believe Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is at fault for the face-off in his home that led to his arrest than Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley, the white officer who handcuffed him. According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents named Gates when asked who they felt was more... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- I think the sentiments discovered in the above poll help explain the sudden reversal of Obama and Gates on this issue. Does that make sense? More: "But the poll suggests there is a wide racial divide on the incident. Among African-Americans, only 4 percent said Gates was more at fault versus 30 percent who blamed Crowley. Among whites, in contrast, 32 percent blamed Gates more, while only 7 percent blamed Crowley." - Sean McBride

"Gates and Crowley Update: 911 Caller Chokes Up; Crowley Was Star Student at Simon Wiesenthal Center" http://blogs.wsj.com/speakea... "In 2007, Crowley attended a three-day program for police officers on racial profiling at the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. He... more... - Sean McBride

Continued: "Sunny Lee-Goodman, director of the “Tools for Tolerance” law enforcement program at the Museum of Tolerance, says attendees of the “Perspectives on Profiling” program explore the perils of racial profiling. Using interactive exhibits at the museum, officers study both the Holocaust and the civil-rights movement in America. Officers also engage in soul-searching about their... more... - Sean McBride

"Poll: Obama mishandled comments on race" http://www.google.com/hostedn... "The poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center found that 41 percent disapproved of Obama's handling of the Gates arrest, compared with 29 percent who approved. The poll also found the incident and Obama's reaction saturated the public consciousness. As... more... - Sean McBride

More: "The poll was conducted Wednesday to Sunday last week. Among those interviewed on Wednesday and Thursday, 53 percent of whites approved of Obama's job performance. This slipped to 46 percent among whites interviewed Friday through Sunday as the Gates story played out." - Sean McBride

Victor: according to the Pew Research Center poll just cited, Obama lost 7 points in his approval rating among whites last weekend because of the way he handled the Gates case. During the campaign, Obama worked hard to steer clear of divisive racial politics and to present himself as a post-racial president, as a leader focused on the American people as a whole across all racial and... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, if you look at Obama's statement, he steps back a tad, but doesn't really reverse himself. The only difference is that he regrets using the word "stupidly" and he adds that maybe Gates overreacted. Is anyone really surprised that a lot of white people reacted negatively to Obama's position? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- if this incident had obviously been a racist incident, with no ambiguities, white opinion would have been solidly behind Gates and Obama. One has to pick one's symbolic events and causes with care in this arena. - Sean McBride

Sean, well, we'll just have to disagree. I'm with Obama when he says that this can be a teachable moment. It's really these ambiguous events that throw a light upon the convoluted landscape of race relations in this country. I don't think we really learn anything from obvious racism other than the fact that, yes, it does exist. I really think the dialog that his incident sparked about... more... - Victor Ganata

@Sean That's always been my contention. I heard again last night on TV that this would never have happened if Gates were white. I completely agree, but that doesn't automatically make Crowley the one who made it about race. If Gates were white, he wouldn't have been in Crowley's kitchen like he was. You might say, an unruly white professor would STILL have no been arrested, and I agree. But there's unruly, and there's unfairly charging a cop of racism. Anyway, Crowley was STILL wrong to arrest Gates. - Edward Zwart

I don't disagree with you Victor. Obama turning this into a teachable moment is great. But what's wrong with saying "Jesus, I can't believe I said they acted stupidly! That was stupid! But..." Because I agree the landscape is convoluted. I thought his message (last year) about understanding both perspectives, say white guilt alongside black fear (to simplify) was very clear. But he... more... - Edward Zwart

Victor -- I really like the way you handled your end of this conversation. You've left me with the thought that I need to think carefully about your point of view on this incident. (We already mostly agree about the issue in general -- problematic cop/minority relations in America.) - Sean McBride

for me, this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] was a 'whack-on-the-head' view of the whole incident. very different take on what was really going on here. - MikeAmundsen

"Black cop at Gates home regrets 'Uncle Tom' label http://www.google.com/hostedn... "A black sergeant who was at the home of Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. when he was arrested says he's been maligned as an "Uncle Tom" for supporting the actions of the white arresting officer. Cambridge Sgt. Leon Lashley gave a letter to Sgt.... more... - Sean McBride

I started this Crowley thread on July 23, when it appeared that Gates was completely in the right and that Crowley was a racist villain. By July 30, within seven days, Crowley was being hosted by Obama and Biden at the White House and offering a press conference to the entire world that was covered by the mainstream media in real time. All the polls indicate that Obama badly blundered... more... - Sean McBride

"We hit it off right from the beginning. When he’s not arresting you, Sgt Crowley is a really likable guy." -- Prof. Henry Louis Gates Jr. - Sean McBride

Sean, I don't think it was ever about trying to figure who the racist villain was. The most common form of racism is subtle and entrenched in the culture, and it's all about the assumptions people make. For me, it's the split between whites and people-of-color in terms of how they viewed this incident that's telling. It re-emphasizes the fact that we do not live in a post-racial world... more... - Victor Ganata

Victor -- big picture strategic thinking (not who was right or wrong): where do you think this story will go from here? My prediction: Obama and Gates will want to make it go away entirely as soon as possible. What do you think? I also predict that Obama will steer clear of racial controversies in the future out of fear that they will disrupt the rest of his political agenda. - Sean McBride

And, as I've been saying from the beginning, what a shame it is that the opportunity was missed to recognize Gates's responsibility. ..to make the teachable moment about the perils of crying wolf. - Edward Zwart

Obama should be feeling exceptionally sensitive and outraged about false accusations of bigotry these days: charges of antisemitism continue to be hurled at him in torrents from pro-Israel activists (along with attacks from that same camp which are undeniably and crudely racist -- see, for instance, Ethan Bronner's recent article in the New York Times on the subject). - Sean McBride

My main lesson learned from the Gates/Crowley fiasco: ethnic and racial politics, and identity politics in general, is often a tremendous waste of time and energy. Identity politics didn't create the Internet and won't generate other world revolutionary ideas based on science, technology and creative entrepreneurialism. Really smart people do not get mired down in identity politics -- they have more interesting ideas on their mind. - Sean McBride

Sean, well some people don't have the luxury of white privilege. Among a lot of people of color in America, dealing with identity is often the first necessary step to political empowerment. - Victor Ganata

Here is an example of what I am talking about. A new semantic search engine, Yebol http://yebol.com, was just launched that I think is superior to Google and Bing. Bio of the founder: "Yebol was founded by Hongfeng Yin, Ph.D., former Yahoo engineer, who has more than 20 years research and development experience on artificial intelligence, pattern recognition, data mining and search." Is Yin bogged down in Chinese identity politics? I strongly doubt it. - Sean McBride

That said, ethnic identity politics would be unnecessary if American history did a better job of including the narratives of people of color. The idea is that you can't really know where you're going if you don't know where you've been. The question of identity is often the first thing that sparks a young person of color into starting to question how the world works. Of course, some people are just naturally curious and questioning, so they don't need this kind of wake-up call. - Victor Ganata

And it all depends on what you mean by "bogged down." I don't know one way or another, but if Yin happens to be proud of his Chinese heritage, is that necessarily a detriment? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- it seems to me that identity in contemporary American culture is incredibly fluid, unstable and complex, and based more on rapidly evolving meritocratic cultures than on ethnicity, race or religion. If one is looking too much to the past for identity, one will quicky fall behind in dealing with the realities of the present. That kind of baggage slows one down more than it empowers and enables one. - Sean McBride

It's fine to be proud of one's heritage -- but to organize one's mental and emotional life around one's identity conflicts is enervating and crippling. It's not a creative or productive activity, and tends to generate a great deal of useless or destructive friction. - Sean McBride

If you say so, Sean. That's simply not been my experience. I've seen too many students of color who have been inspired to political activism, the pursuit of higher education, and careers in academia, who otherwise would've been apathetic and been content to be mere consumer citizens. - Victor Ganata

Fostering a culture of academic achievement in households, regardless of their ethnicity, race or religion, is probably more effective in promoting success than focusing on identity politics. Barack Obama has alluded to this principle quite a few times. (Jews have been especially fortunate in this department: their identity culture (ethnic and religious) has always highly prized... more... - Sean McBride

And when the emphasis on academic achievement is missing in the household, or if the household is too dysfunctional to actually pass on values? Are the people in this household then to be condemn to powerlessness and ignorance? I agree that fashioning a career solely based on identity politics is probably not very constructive, but identity politics clearly has its uses. To argue that Obama never dealt with identity politics mischaracterizes the path he took. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- most people understand that white Europeans inflicted enormous damage on African-American culture in the United States, and that large-scale reparations (in every sense) have been due and haven't been fully paid off yet. But taking the larger strategic view, one sees a new dynamic coming into play: with the economic downturn (and perhaps looming economic disaster), Americans... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you are dead wrong. And in this particular case it is the African-Americans who are behaving as bigots and a racists – and I don't just mean Professor Gates. >< - David C. Cooper

Victor -- identity politics has played an important role in Obama's career, but it seems to me that with each passing year his outlook has become increasingly universalist. This is a psychological process that many people undergo when they have rich encounters with elite universities comprised of the most interesting minds from every ethnic, racial, religious, social and national group... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, yeah, as you said, it's not something Obama dwells on, but it's clear it has shaped his mindset. And the psychological process you describe doesn't apply to everyone. I'm not even sure it necessarily applies to Obama. A lot of people of color actually become exposed to identity politics for the very first time when they start going to university. - Victor Ganata

http://digg.com/d3z1jx ""Inkwell Foundation, a charity headed by star Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. is filing an amended 2007 report to the Internal Revenue Service because $11,000 it paid to foundation officers as compensation was mischaracterized as being for research grants. Questions about Inkwell Foundation emerged over the weekend, part of a tsunami of... more... - Noah David Simon

Sean, you said i didn't correctly paraphrase what you said, but you didn't say how i was wrong. if you think Gates' arrest was justified, please tell me what it was possible for him to say that made him *deserve* to be arrested. you don't need to reiterate the police's right to arrest people on trumped up charges, and you don't need to play Blame The Victim. - Karim

Karim -- the question, for me, is not whether the arrest was "justified" or "right"; the question is whether the arrest was sufficiently within the realm of normal American police behavior to be considered not too controversial by a critical mass of Americans. If Crowley's behavior had been sufficiently egregious or outrageous, he wouldn't have been invited to the White House. That was... more... - Sean McBride

you keep saying that it's *expected* that arguing with cops will result in arrest, even if the argument is legal. it's tantamount to saying "well it looked like the black man was reaching for a gun, so it's *expected* that the police would shoot him, even if he was only reaching for the ID in his wallet." why do you have to be an apologist for the abuse of power? - Karim

are your ethics really decided by poll numbers, Sean? surely you can't be making that argument. - Karim

Sean, IMO rightness is way more important than what is currently considered acceptable by Americans. An unsettlingly high number of Americans are OK with torture, with the current use of tasers as general-purpose police timesavers, etc. And I don't care as much about what's a political winner as much as I care about the ethics and morality of these things. - Andrew C

Sean, you can't separate the ethical and legal issues from the political ones. i keep asking whether something was right or wrong and you keep telling me about how it was bad politically. - Karim

I'm not an apologist for the abuse of power. I've posted hundreds of comments on Friendfeed strongly objecting to the abuse of power under the Bush/Cheney administration. But the Gates/Crowley situation is so murky from an ethical/legal standpoint that even the Glenn Greenwalds (militant civil libertarians) haven't mustered up much moral outrage about the arrest. - Sean McBride

Sean, why do you have to poll the militant civil libertarians in order to have an opinion on whether a man being arrested in his own home is right or wrong? EDIT: you're acting as if the political effects of the issue are actually *more important* than the ethics. is that what you believe, or am i misunderstanding you? - Karim

Karim -- I've already expressed my opinion repeatedly: I think the arrest was wrong. But it wasn't wrong enough from the standpoint of public opinion to turn Gates into a victim and Crowley into a villain. - Sean McBride

In this case, the politics of the situation is far more important than the ethics -- obviously, that is the judgment that Obama and Gates came to. If you've got a problem with the outcome of this story, take it up with Obama and Gates. They (unlike me) have had the power to push this story in any direction they wished. - Sean McBride

Sean, if the arrest was *wrong,* then why do you repeatedly make arguments that suggest otherwise -- that other police stuck up for Crowley (implying it wasn't wrong), that the arrest was to be expected (implying it wasn't wrong), that poll numbers show nobody's worked up about how wrong it was (implying it wasn't wrong), etc. ad nauseam. - Karim

ok, please explain to me how the politics of the situation is more important than the ethics, or how Obama or Gates came anywhere *near* to saying words to that effect. EDIT: in my admittedly possibly naive point of view, the arrest was either right or wrong ethically, and the politics *follow* from that -- not the other way around. - Karim

Karim -- I've already answered these questions you are asking several times. See my previous posts in this thread. - Sean McBride

no, sorry, i've read your posts, and i see NOWHERE where Obama and Gates said that the politics of the situation was more important than the ethics -- nor do i see you saying that in so many words. so go back and see YOUR OWN previous posts. - Karim

Sean, in my opinion, your stance - at least as conveyed by your words here - has morphed over time. Maybe try copying out this whole thread, search-and-replacing your name with someone else's, and reread it as if someone else wrote your words? - Andrew C

you know i thought *i* was cynical, but how cold do you have to be to say "who cares if it was right or wrong, how did it affect the poll numbers?" - Karim

Quote of the Day: "He's actually right. It is teachable. Here's the lesson: Shut up." -- Rudy Giuliani, in an interview on Fox News, on what President Obama should learn from getting involved in the Gates-Crowley dispute. http://politicalwire.com/archive... - Sean McBride

+1 Andrew. Sean said twice the arrest was a "bad idea" (in response to the question of whether it was a lawful or proper arrest) -- and then his opinion morphed to the fact that it was only a bad idea *politically.* - Karim

Noah -- as far as financial scandals go, that seems like a relatively trivial one. - Sean McBride

Sean, you saying "It's Giuliani time" now a la the police officers who sodomized Abner Louima? " "There's something very deeply pathological about Rudy's humanity," Crew says. "He was barren, completely emotionally barren, on the issue of race." -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id... - Karim

Andrew -- my views on everything are always morphing over time, as I acquire new information. Don't yours? If you've got a problem with the outcome of the Gates/Crowley affair, take it up with Obama and Gates -- they have decided to withdraw from any further conflict over the story and to make nice. No more threats of lawsuits; no more harsh words; instead, many words of praise for Crowley. Be morally outraged at them, if you must be morally outraged. - Sean McBride

Giuliani is usually wrong, in my opinion, but he sure got this right. - Sean McBride

so a man who has been described as "deeply pathological," whose name is associated with police abuse, who is "emotionally barren" on the issue of race, and who YOU describe as "usually wrong" -- in this case he's right because he AGREES with you, huh? :-D - Karim

Funny how your 'new information' is only the information that backs you up - the new information about the police report discrepancies didn't modify your views one whit. - Andrew C

Andrew -- why aren't you aiming your anger at Obama and Gates? I don't get it. - Sean McBride

Because _the politics of the situation are not my main concern_. - Andrew C

Andrew -- you seem to be morally outraged at people (like myself) who aren't more morally outraged about the Gates controversy than Gates himself. Can you explain that? Are you morally outraged at Gates for not being sufficiently morally outraged? Are you morally outraged at Obama, who is now essentially the stage director of this narrative and who is calling the shots? - Sean McBride

I see no reason why I can't have moral outrage over an arrest so stupid (yeah, I said it) the prosecutor nolle prosse'd it before ever getting to court, nor over a police report that _even if fully honest_ pretty clearly shows the cop baited the homeowner into a vaguely arrestable situation. - Andrew C

Andrew -- I asked you why your moral outrage greatly exceeds that of Gates and Obama, and why you aren't harshly criticizing them for throwing Crowley kisses over the last week. - Sean McBride

Whereas you've gone from "Crowley's not a racist" to "the facts will all land behind Crowley" to "the comments I've skimmed lean one way" to "If Obama's OK with it, then everyone else should be" (a stance you yourself definitely don't take in certain foreign policy issues). - Andrew C

Sean, I haven't seen why I should not be outraged, and you haven't presented a reason (besides an implied Argument From Authority) either. - Andrew C

Andrew -- Gates himself, who is one of only two people on the planet who know what really went on between him and Crowley, is speaking kind and conciliatory words to Crowley. Explain to me why I should be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates, and how I could do so without looking like a fool. - Sean McBride

So if only two people on the planet know what really went on, why were you going on earlier about all the other witness testimony? At _every_ turn, you have sought to minimize Crowley's wrong. That is my point. I don't think Crowley is 100% villain, but your take on the whole thing has been _remarkably_ biased. - Andrew C

Andrew: you keep ducking the question: why are you much more excited about the offense to Gates than Gates himself? How do you explain the discrepancy here? - Sean McBride

As I've been trying to explain for over a week now, another of my points -- one you have consistently ducked throughout this thread, speaking of "ducking" -- has been that the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work. You've brought up a bunch of quotes without (at the time) further comment all of which implied Gates was in the wrong for 'forgetting the "black tax"', etc. - Andrew C

Still no answer: why aren't you angry at Obama and Gates for treating Crowley in such a conciliatory and respectful way, while expressing none of your moral outrage? Why are you more morally outraged about Gates' situation than Gates himself? Weird.... - Sean McBride

Sean, no weirder than YOUR ducking. http://www.politicsforum.org/images... - Andrew C

Andrew: it is not a filibuster to keep asking a question which goes to the heart of this affair: why should we be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates himself? Than Obama? You must have reasons that sound reasonable to yourself that answer this question: what are they? Think about it. - Sean McBride

OK, will do. - Andrew C

Andrew -- thanks. I am honestly curious about the line of thinking that supports that position. Maybe there are good reasons that I haven't thought of yet and that you will come up with. - Sean McBride

Sean, we have no idea what's going on in Obama's and Gates' heads right now. For all we know, Gates' position may not have changed at all, it's just that the turn of events has made it all but impossible to feasibly pursue legal action without getting attacked for it, so maybe he's just keeping quiet. And I think you've been really selective about what you're reading. There are plenty of people who are still quite outraged at the fact that a man got arrested in his own house for no good reason. - Victor Ganata

This is how I would answer the question that I asked Andrew: perhaps Gates and Obama have felt pressured and intimidated to conceal their own honest moral outrage by the intensity of the racism-tinged reaction to the Gates affair from so many Americans. They are retreating from further confrontation from fear of suffering a barrage of attacks that are motivated in many instances by... more... - Sean McBride

i guess siding with someone you describe as "usually wrong" didn't set off any warning bells, eh Sean? - Karim

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. - Sean McBride

Andrew is also correct is pointing out that "the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work." i'm guessing Sean is only concerned with the political consequences of innocent people being arrested in their own homes and not so much with the morality of it. - Karim

Karim -- who are your favorite political bloggers and pundits? Who do you read on a regular basis? - Sean McBride

"Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. has sent flowers to the woman who unwittingly sparked a national debate on race by calling police to report what she thought might be a break-in at Gates' home. Lucia Whalen's lawyer Wendy Murphy declined to say what was in the note that accompanied the flowers, but described them as "a gesture of gratitude."" http://www.freep.com/article... Nicely done. - Sean McBride

i don't visit a lot of political sites, Sean. occasionally i'll go to cqpolitics.com, and back during the presidential campaign last year i was a fan of Nate Silver and fivethirtyeight.com. why do you ask? - Karim

Sean it sounds like Gates is buying Whalen's story (which conflicts with Crowley's story). - Karim

So the only political analyst that comes to mind is Nate Silver? I am just trying to get a sense of where you are coming politically and your depth of political knowledge. - Sean McBride

Sean was i confused for thinking you were politically liberal? just recently you quoted Giuliani on *Fox News* and now you are quoting Free Republic, so you have me kind of wondering. :-D - Karim

Sean, maybe part of our disconnect is that you are seeing this as some major *political* issue, the biggest mistake of Obama's presidency, etc., when i think it's more of an ethical issue -- i.e. should Gates have been arrested. i find it curious that you are reluctant to even weigh in on the ethical aspect but you take great pride in your political prognostication. - Karim

Karim: some sources I follow: Alternet, Andrew Sullivan (Daily Dish), Antiwar.com, Common Dreams, Consortiumnews, Counterpunch, Democracy Now!, Dissident Voice, Glenn Greenwald (Unclaimed Territory), GlobalResearch, Haaretz, Information Clearing House, Jim Lobe (LobeLog), Juan Cole (Informed Comment), OpEdNews, Philip Weiss (Mondoweiss), Stephen M. Walt, The Nation, Think Progress,... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- I'm a progressive libertarian, and detest Fox News and Free Republic. But I have very little sympathy for identity politics of any kind, which bores me to tears when it is not scaring me. I suspect that that issue is at the root of the differences between me and you and Andrew over the Gates fiasco. You and Andrew are heavily into identity politics. - Sean McBride

see, i don't see it as primarily a political issue -- any more than any other incident in which a white cop arrests a black man for dubious cause, with a police report that's contradicted by eyewitnesses. the novelty is the fame of the black man who was arrested. the fact that Obama commented on it didn't seem unnatural to me -- Gates was his friend, and Obama has a history of being against racial profiling. - Karim

you seem to be using the interest of *political* pundits in this issue as some sort of bellwether for the *ethics* of the situation -- like, if Democracy Now! has nothing to say about it, that must mean it's ok or something. that's kind of the impression i got from you -- that you were incapable of deciding for yourself whether this was right or wrong, that you needed the consensus of the political interwebs or whatever to tell you whether it was ok for an old man to be arrested in his own home. - Karim

A distaste for "identity politics" shouldn't trump the libertarian concerns over being arrested on trumped-up charges of 'disorderly conduct', IMO. - Andrew C

Sean, i don't even know what "identify politics" means, so i have no response to your accusation that i'm into heavily into it. what i know is that people should not be arrested just for being "uncooperative" with the police in their own homes. yes we all know it happens, or happened in this case, but i don't see how you reconcile your claim to be any flavor of libertarian while essentially serving as an apologist for the police in this case. - Karim

23 break-ins in Gates' neighborhood so far this year, including a recent attempted break-in at the Gates' residence, offend my libertarian sensibilities more than Crowley's well-intentioned effort to investigate a reported possible break-in in progress. Gates now seems to appreciate this angle on story -- he just sent flowers and a thank-you note to Lucia Whalen, the woman who phoned in... more... - Sean McBride

To reiterate and reemphasize: there is currently an issue in play regarding racism in American political culture that merits close attention and discussion: the Birthers. The rights and wrongs couldn't be more clear. It's a solid issue to tee off on without quickly finding oneself in quicksand. (The Birther movement is overwhelmingly centered in the former Confederate South.) - Sean McBride

See, for instance: http://friendfeed.com/us-poli... - Sean McBride

What I'm disappointed in is that the question of race has managed to become a smokescreen for the violation of civil rights. I guess it's just time for me to accept that we live in a country where it's totally OK for cops to arrest you in your own house even when you're not doing anything illegal. - Victor Ganata

Victor, thank you for saying that. I've been astounded that there has been NO objection from libertarians about the fact that this man was arrested in his own home after producing evidence of his residence. If you can't rant in your own home, where can you rant? (I know! The Internet! ;-)) - Karoli

@Victor, @Karoli: i posted this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] a while back to help spark talk about the role of police in US society as well as explore the notion that this incident was not at all about race, but about class. - MikeAmundsen

The full weirdness of the Gates/Crowley affair is difficult to digest: 1. Both Gates and Crowley are highly esteemed associates of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, an organization devoted to fighting bigoty and intolerance http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith... (Next we'll probably discover that they are Masonic brothers, in... more... - Sean McBride

I'm not even sure it's about class, although class probably insulated Gates from having to endure possibly worse abuse. I really just think it's about law enforcement abusing their powers, and how they've probably been emboldened by how in the last 8 years, we've given up a lot of our civil rights. I realize that abuse of power by cops isn't a new thing, but it just seems more egregious these days. - Victor Ganata

@Victor: i think it's possible that class plays into this in the following way: Gates perceives his class as quite high in the US (Harvard, Phd, author/pundit, pres is his pal). Crowley perceives his class has relatively lowly (working class stiff in a service biz where folks complain about his group [police] often). when they meet, Gates is intimidated by the gun and historical fears;... more... - MikeAmundsen

Perhaps, Mike. I have a hard time imagining when a cop would actually be intimidated by someone who is unarmed, unless it was a politician or someone who is immensely wealthy, and certainly only if they recognize them. But between Crowley and Gates, only one of those guys has the power to haul the other off to jail on whatever grounds they feel like, and only of those guys is licensed... more... - Victor Ganata

"Gates: Crowley And I May Go To Red Sox Game" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009... "Gates was mostly light-hearted during his speech and even poked fun at himself after a man in the crowd told him he admired his sense of humor. "I should have been funnier in the kitchen of my house on July 16," he said.... Gates called what happened to him... more... - Sean McBride

@Victor: i see your point completely. i am only attempting to look at this from a few other angles. i've had my own run-in w/ police. i recall the feelings i had at the time, standing there in front of my family. it was a minor incident, a mistake on the policeman's part and he was quick to recognize it and resolve the discrepancy. i can only imagine how things might have gone if that... more... - MikeAmundsen

Mike, yeah, my experience with the police is relatively limited, ranging from benign, to getting yelled at for trying to do the right thing, but that's another story. But, wow, those people you've seen berate/belittle cops must be either extremely brave, or extremely stupid. It can see how Gates' reaction can be interpreted multiple ways. On one hand, he may have thought his class... more... - Victor Ganata

A disturbing development, and proof (if any were needed) that racism is still an immense problem in American society: "Harvard tells Gates to consider moving after death threats" http://rawstory.com/08... Any thoughts on what should be the legal penalties for making threats of this nature? Certainly they qualify as hate crimes of some kind. - Sean McBride

"I can only imagine the producers’ surprise when I stated that with America being far and away the world leader in per capita incarceration of its own citizens, we are living in a police state. " [http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...] - MikeAmundsen

"Poll: Did Obama's reaction to Gates arrest hurt him?" http://www.cnn.com/2009... "A new national poll indicates that white and black Americans don't see eye to eye on last month's arrest of Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates. The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Tuesday also suggests a racial divide over... more... - Sean McBride

Haggis (Sean Loyless)

Desktop cat is watching you....

July 29 - Comment - Like - Share

ĎÚβĨŐÚŚ Dod, Dobromir Hadzhiev, Wulffy and 78 other people liked this

This is great! - MikeDeal / ZoneDancer

7 more comments

Damn, I thought that was an app when I first saw it. Maybe it makes me weird, but I kind of wish it was. Anyone remember the old Windows neko.exe? - Joel Webber

i remember Neko! this would be an awesome app. the cat could slide down like a Terry Gilliam animation :-D - Karim

hahaha, I love it! - Nicholas Kreidberg

New background at work :) - Simon Wicks

Awesome! Of course, if you're browsing for pr0n, then desktop cat is watching you, erm, you know, do that thing. - Ladybug Heather

@joel: Neko was so cute! :) - Jemm

I also want a Chris Hansen version of it lol! - Bora Mesut PALAS

I've seen so many Ceiling Cat versions and this one is certainly one of the best! - Majento

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, US Politics

Obama's Image Stained Over Gates Controversy : NPR - http://www.npr.org/templat...

July 25 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

i80and, andrei_c, bcultral and 9 other people liked this

"President Obama wanted to stay on message about health care this week, but he made an extraordinary appearance in the White House briefing room yesterday to say that he had called Sgt. James Crowley, the Cambridge, Mass., policeman who had arrested Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. for disorderly conduct. Obama said he told Sgt. Crowley he did not mean to malign him when he said the Cambridge police had "acted stupidly." NPR news analyst Juan Williams tells host Scott Simon that Obama's handling of the controversy has hurt him in the eyes of the nation." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

102 more comments

In deciding whether this controversy over Henry Gates has damaged Obama politically, one needs to set aside one's views about which party was in the wrong -- Gates or Crowley. The bigger question is whether the story has inflicted major damage on Obama's public image and his political program (including health care). My read is that it has. Obama should have stayed completely above the... more... - Sean McBride

I think many people initially tried to jam the story into the evil racist cops meme without carefully looking at all the facts. Even Obama fell into that trap. The facts contradict that interpretation, and more facts are going to emerge from reliable eyewitnesses in the coming days that even further undercut that theme. This is by far the biggest political slip-up that I have seen the... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, what did you think of that samefacts.com analysis of the police report? - Andrew C from Android

Andrew -- are you referring to the entry which suggested that Gates may have deliberately goaded Crowley into arresting him with the objective of creating a teachable moment? Interesting theory -- it could even be true (although the outbursts of anger from both sides strike me as having been spontaneous). - Sean McBride

No, that one (http://www.samefacts.com/archive...) is new. I meant this one: http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - Andrew C

If someone acts stupidly, I will probably say he did. It's not the same thing as saying someone is stupid. It's decrying the action, not the individual. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Andrew: I just read the item. Gates has a big problem: from what I am hearing, *all* the eyewitness testimony and tapes will support Crowley's account; none of it will support Gates. That is probably why Gates is now eager to move on regarding this incident. He totally lost his shit over a reasonable and honorable effort to investigate a possible break-in in progress at his house, and... more... - Sean McBride

Yes, Gates is getting the message: "I told the president that my principal regret was that all of the attention paid to his deeply supportive remarks during his press conference had distracted attention from his health care initiative," Gates said. http://www.mymotherlode.com/news... (Exactly the point I emphasized here this morning.) - Sean McBride

Where are you hearing this stuff, then? If all the testimony supports Crowley, why did the prosecutor drop charges before even going to a preliminary hearing? - Andrew C

And to be honest, I actually wondered if Obama used the Gates comments to distract the media from the health care story... - Andrew C

Andrew: have you noticed that sympathy for Gates within the Harvard community itself seems to be curiously tepid? -- one isn't seeing an outpouring of moral outrage about the alleged racism in this incident. One possible explanation: most residents of the Cambridge area (including Harvard professors and employees) are in favor of an aggressive police response to reports of suspected break-ins. It's a serious issue in that neck of the woods. No wonder Gates wants to "move on." - Sean McBride

He spoke out against clear racism. I see no problem with it. - Nation Hahn

What he (Gates) did was apply racial profiling against James Crowley from the very instant that Crowley appeared at his door. Unfortunately for Gates, he picked the wrong guy to racially profile, and now he has created major political problems for Barack Obama. Obama himself has already admitted that he made a huge mistake in his initial comment on the Gates incident: it is really extraordinary to see a president backtrack in such a public way on a story of this kind. - Sean McBride

Sean, I haven't noticed that, because I don't care about what the Harvard community thinks about anything. - Andrew C

"Henry Louis Gates Jr. Caller Lucia Whalen Never Mentioned Race": "In an interesting development in the arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. over a week ago, the person who called in Gates for breaking into his own house says she didn't cite Gates' race when calling in the potential crime. Caller Lucia Whalen has "worked in Cambridge for more than 15 years, about 100 yards from where Mr.... more... - Sean McBride

Is calling this a 'losing issue' for one side or the other "judging this incident"? I'm so confused! - Andrew C

Andrew: look at the headline at the head of this thread: "Obama's Image Stained Over Gates Controversy" -- it's from one of the foremost citadels of liberalism in America, NPR. In his worst nightmares, I doubt that Gates would have ever expected to see that question being asked on NPR. This has been a losing issue for Obama and Gates. (Obama's approval ratings noticeably dropped... more... - Sean McBride

"the foremost citadels of liberalism in America, NPR" - just quoted so I could look at it again. - Andrew C

NPR is a citadel of liberalism? On what planet? - Steve Lowe

A citadel of liberalism in ancient days long past, but what passes for liberalism these days. - Sean McBride

The fact that we're all talking about racial profiling, police brutality, and African-Amercan male experience in America is the happy result of this. For Gates, who has studied it all his life, and for Obama, who it is also a prime example of the successes. Sean, you just don't understand it's a reality for many non-white men. How can you say it's not? You still haven't answered this... more... - anna sauce

... unless you have some political agenda against Obama (waits for deluge) - anna sauce

Anna -- you should review my posts on Friendfeed -- I strongly supported Obama both against Hillary Clinton and John McCain. And I am fully aware of police abuse against minorities, and have strongly spoken out against it on many occasions. But not every police case involving minorities is a product of racial profiling. One needs to look at all the facts in each individual case to come to a fair conclusion. - Sean McBride

Gates, by the way, is more privileged than most whites, most of whom do not own summer homes on Martha's Vineyard or enjoy professorships at Harvard University. - Sean McBride

@SB: i suspect quite a bit of Gate's outrage over the whole incident was due more to his privileged status than his race. i.e. i think he was really mad this lousy wanna-be-cop was tromping around in his fancy house giving him a lot of lip. - MikeAmundsen

This incident definitely stained Obama's image...in the eyes of those who don't like him anyway. I do agree that the incident did move the focus away from healthcare, though. It doesn't even matter if the incident was race-motivated or not. The point is that the man was arrested at his house even after showing that it was his house. Unless he charged the cops or drew a weapon, I see no justification for that. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Sean, thanks so much for posting that. I was afraid you were missing the bigger stuff going on around this case. - anna sauce

it seemed clear to me (watching the presser) that Obama made sure to call on this last person to get in a 'Gates' question. he even had to do a quick shuffle of another questioner (due to some foul up on the call list) to make sure this Gates question was the _last_ one before he left the podium. - MikeAmundsen

Yeah they usually do that when they know an issue is going to result in a flood of questions. - anna sauce

Mike -- that's the honest impression of many people all across the political spectrum, including quite a few Obama supporters. - Sean McBride

Mike, I disagree. I think Gates' response was due to the fact that it was egregious, and he is not humbled by the police, and he knows his rights, and in his position he can handle all of hte shit thrown at him. Because he's studied this kind of thing *all his life*. I studied him in college, 1990-4, when he was mid-career publishing books on race relations in the US and beyond. He's... more... - anna sauce

in so much as he had control of the dialogue, he didn't have control of the timing. the police did, though, which is kind of interesting. And Rah, +1. - anna sauce

Almost every cop interviewed has said, "good cops specialize in not losing ground, by not letting the situation escalate." - anna sauce

Seriously?!? Juan Williams?!? The guy who has a long-standing contract with Fox News?!? You'll have to forgive me if I don't take this guy too seriously. - Victor Ganata

Juan Williams, as Victor notes, is a hard-core conservative - listen to him talk about Obama or the Dems sometime, and notice all the loaded language he uses - he has learned well from his Fox News overlords - William Harryman

Obama's problem is that this issue is stuck between 3 of his Special Interest Groups. The minority SIG, the academic SIG, and the union (police) SIG. - Robert Hafer from iPhone

any time the president uses the word "stupid" in a new conf, it's gonna be a big deal. - MikeAmundsen

@anna: i see your point. i don't mean to down-play racial tones in this altercation at all. i have no doubt that Gates is very sensitive to race in this context. i meant to point out that Gates' reaction looks very much like how any person of high social stature might treat a campus policeman who is in his own house for the wrong reason. - MikeAmundsen

Robert - I have to laugh at the idea of academics being a SIG that any politician ever takes seriously. I'm in academia, and we are always cast as clueless, not living in the real world, over-privileged (tell that to a community college instructor on an adjunct contract), snobbish, etc. The list could go on and on. People think we make more than we do (really, think about the number of... more... - Katy S

I guess the last eight years really have changed us. I never really thought it would be generally acceptable to have to cower in fear at the authorities while in your own house. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- why is there any need to cower in fear in an incident of this kind, in which a cop comes to your residence to investigate a possible break-in in progress? You treat the cop respectfully, you communicate with him or her, you mutually figure out what is going on, and you cheerfully provide all the necessary ID which proves your identity. You part on perhaps a humorous note, with... more... - Sean McBride

Sean - you really do have trouble imagining a world-view outside of your own, don't you. You refuse to really listen to what people here are trying to tell you. It demonstrates a complete lack of empathy. - Katy S

Katy -- generally when I have an intellectual disagreement with someone, I don't accuse them of a lack of empathy, or expect them to agree with me. Intellectual disagreements are normal, a basic feature of reality. And in the real world, most people don't become hysterical when a cop comes to investigate a possible reported break-in at their residence. They can handle the situation reasonably. Some people can't. - Sean McBride

Sean - you certainly do seem to expect people to agree with you. In almost every post you discount what others say. That demonstrates an inflexible mind, if nothing else. I teach rhetoric and argumentation. I'm very aware of the way argument works. By claiming that this reaction is "hysterical", you've managed to add sexism to your methods as well. Good job! A woman alone in a house (or... more... - Katy S

Sean - In the real world, there are abusive police officers. There are people who masquerade as police officers and harm others. When I was in undergrad, there was a guy with a fake uniform and his own set of flashing lights who was pulling women over on the interstate and sexually assaulting them. Even the real police told us to never pull over in a deserted place - instead, we were... more... - Katy S

And by the way, if you don't see the place of pathos in argumentation, you might want to read some Aristotle or some Cicero. - Katy S

My "hysterical" remark was directed at Gates, not you. There are special issues for women in interactions with cops, especially single women whose residences are being entered by single male cops. I think I am fully sensitive to that issue. - Sean McBride

But, why is that a "special issue" and the history of abusive interactions between black men and police officers not one? - Katy S

Katy -- I've read much of Aristotle and Cicero in the original Greek and Latin. I find it amusing that you sometimes lecture others here in an academic and condescending way, somewhat like Barack Obama in fact, without knowing the academic backgrounds of those you are addressing. - Sean McBride

All the abuse in this interaction, Katy, was coming from Gates, not Crowley. You've got it backwards in this case. - Sean McBride

"You don't act like a mental case." I am totally loving this non-rush-to-judgment. (Gates has said, BTW, that he was ill at the time, including having a letter from the doctor and thus physically could not have raised his voice that much...) - Andrew C

there's nothing in the police report saying Gates became "hysterical," Sean, that's YOUR word. apparently if some guy with a gun walks into your house and says "Ihre Papiere, bitte" while refusing to identify himself, you're supposed to not have any problems with that. - Karim

Gates in the report, and the Gates observed by other cops on the scene, comes across as a person seriously out of control, Karim -- and extremely abusive. - Sean McBride

Sean - I only call people out when they demonstrate the inability to argue in "good faith" or are being completely illogical or are treating others poorly (typically while engaging in the aforementioned activities). Your tone when responding to others has been very dismissive. I guess I got tired of it. And I see that you really do have a problem with academics, don't you. Barack Obama is seen as condescending, Gates seems to be a problem figure for you, and now me. Interesting. - Katy S

again, Sean, "seriously out of control," "extremely abusive," these are YOUR unsupported characterizations and not phrases used in the police report. the police report says "uncooperative" and "tumultuous," which it was perfectly legal for him to be in HIS OWN DAMN HOUSE. - Karim

And, if you don't like it when I've mentioned credentials or provided evidence for why I might just know what I am talking about, consider this: I live in a world that often fails to believe that women can have expertise in academic subjects. It is a world in which male students consistently address their female professors as "Mrs." and their male professors as "Dr." or "Professor." Women's expertise is often discounted. If I lay mine out for you from the start, that's why. - Katy S

As has been stated earlier, it's generally held that the law under which he was arrested cannot apply within one's house (within reason, I suppose, no 150 db clamor), which is likely why Crowley led Gates outside: in order to set him up for an acceptable pretext. - Andrew C

Ah -- now I have a problem with academics. Interesting. - Sean McBride

Sean - the way you worded that response above, it certainly sounded like it. You find them condescending? Fwiw, I've never found Obama condescending. You write about how this is a class issue (and I do agree that class is part of the problem, but not all of it) in terms of Harvard professor and police officer, always deferring to the police officer. It's a pattern. I noticed it. - Katy S

From Tom Wise, and sadly sounds like someone on thsi thread: "Such a perception on the part of whites makes sense, given the white racial frame, as sociologist Joe Feagin calls it, through which most whites view these matters. That frame says, among other things, that as long as you are respectful to police, nothing bad will happen to you (thus, if something bad does happen to you it... more... - anna sauce

questions for anyone who wishes to participate: 1) is the Gates incident about race (were racial slurs or insinuations made, and by whom)? 2) is it about abusing a position of power (did parties try to use their position to bully the other, give examples)? finally, 3) what evidence is there that, if both parties were of the same race, this would have turned out differently? - MikeAmundsen

Katy isn't the only one who noticed. - Joe Silence is not dead

Anna -- it seems that Obama and Gates would both like to close this case as soon as possible. Are they victims of a dominant white narrative? Or did they simply step into it and now want to get clear? - Sean McBride

who wouldn't? - Joe Silence is not dead

OK Sean, tell me what you think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - anna sauce

@anna: great video! - MikeAmundsen

Andrew- I bet that's why they dropped the case, because it's obvious, recorded entrapment! - anna sauce

OK I'm off to drink - recommend the same to all here :) - anna sauce

Mike - 1) I think it definitely was an issue in terms of historical (and modern day) precedents that influenced the way people responded to one another. Whether it was conscious or sub-conscious is another issue. 2)maybe for Gates, most likely for the police officer. Once he determined that Gates lived there (and he said he did in his report) he should have left. The onus is on the cop to defuse the situation. 3) We have no idea and really can't know. - Katy S

Mike - WRT #3, we can't know for sure, but there is at least one anecdote (caveat of course) about a white person in Cambridge who had had to break into her own home and got local police help to do so, _without ever having to show ID_. http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - Andrew C

@KatyS: cool. on 1: i've read a report that Gates used the phrase "your mamma" when responding to the officer. if true, this leads _me_ to think he has brought race into the conversation. correct me, if you like. on 2: is it possible that a prize-winning PhD might have had an opportunity to intimidate the officer? on 3: i agree 100% - MikeAmundsen

#2 - I think the uninvited cop with a gun has the intimidation high hand _at that moment_. Of course Gates has some standing too, and this was seen later, but at that moment, come on. - Andrew C

@AndrewC: i see your point. i'm not convinced it's the same situation, since Gates was already _in_ the house, but i see the comparision. - MikeAmundsen

Mike, 1) the incident certainly involves race, given today's revelations that Ms. Whalen (the 911 caller) says she never described "black men," but Crowley's police report specifically says she did. Whalen also says she never spoke to Crowley at the scene, and Crowley's police report says she did. *So either Whalen or the cop is lying.* Period. 2) Gates tried to pull rank because he is... more... - Karim

@AndrewC: i agree that having a gun is a big deal. i'm not asking that in #2. i'm asking about how parties might have behaved at that moment. i am not ready to concede that Gates, an highly respected and worldly man, would have assumed that he had no leverage at that moment. - MikeAmundsen

Sorry Mike, I was responding to your _second_ #2... =) (this would probably be easier if we had threaded comments.) - Andrew C

@Karim: on #1: while i see the lying, i'm not sure that proves any racism here. i understand your conclusion, tho. #2 i think we both agree here. Gates was in a position to make things bad for the officer. the officer might have been trying to cover his errors w/ more mistakes. #3 again, i see your point, but while it is true blacks continue to be mistreated is not evidence that things... more... - MikeAmundsen

BTW, the Cambridge commissioner says the discrepancy between Whalen's account and the report is because the report is a summary of the entire incident. However, the police report _flat out says the responding officer talked to Whalen when arriving at the scene and she gave a brief description of what was going on_; Whalen says she identified herself at the scene and that was it. So for me, Commissioner Haas hasn't cleared up the discrepancies yet. - Andrew C

Mike - I wouldn't be surprised if Gates thought that his position shielded him more than a low-income black man. He is accustomed to being treated with respect. At the same time, he's a fairly small man who can't walk without a cane b/c of hip problems. He certainly couldn't have been a physical threat. If he did pull a "your mama" - and Gates claimed he didn't - it still isn't reason for the cop to arrest him. I hold the police to a high standard. - Katy S

@Katy S: i agree w/ your points here. Gates surely was not expected this kind of treatment upon his return within his own home; no one would. years ago, i had a single incident in front of my house, after a long trip, with my family present where an officer questioned me and was ready to arrest me based on an erroneous report. i was intimidated and embarrassed and - yes angry. lucky for... more... - MikeAmundsen

@Katy S: about the standard; i agree 100% percent. and in the last few days almost all police officials interviewed in the media back up your comment. i'm trying not to go to that point in these questions. i am really exploring how people _might_ have felt and reacted in the moment; not how that _should_ have acted or were trained to act. - MikeAmundsen

Mike, for your question (1), the more I think about, the more I feel that, while Crowley's actions probably weren't consciously motivated by Gates' race, I actually think the fact that Gates called him a racist pushed him in a direction that he might not have gone if that word hadn't been used. I can't find the source of the quote, but I remember someone saying that calling a white person a racist elicits pretty much the same level of emotion and anger as calling a person-of-color a racial epithet. - Victor Ganata

@Victor: this is a possibility, isn't it? certainly, as Karim has rightly pointed out, history teaches that black citizens are more likely to be intimidated by white officers than the other way 'round. but statistics is not the point here, i think. - MikeAmundsen

@Victor: btw, do we know Gates called Crowley as racist? i've not seen that. anyone have a pointer for me? - MikeAmundsen

(2) I honestly have a hard time envisioning a situation where a civilian would have more power than a cop, unless they were a politician or immensely wealthy. In terms of absolute power, I actually think an academician's position is pretty poor, especially in the anti-intellectual climate of the U.S. - Victor Ganata

Mike, according to the report, Gates called Crowley a racist: http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - Andrew C

Mike, in Crowley's report he states "Gates was telling the person on the other end of the call that he was dealing with a racist police officer in his home." - Victor Ganata

@AndrewC: i'm reading a copy of the report right now and see several times where Crowley sez Gates accused him of being a racist. - MikeAmundsen

(3) There's obviously no way to run a controlled, prospective experiment, and I realize anecdotes aren't data, but, as Karim states, exactly how many white professors get arrested for no good reason inside their own homes? - Victor Ganata

Ok, i'm getting the message that 1) most folks here think that the racism present in the incident was on the part of the officer; 2) few people here think it likely that Gates was attempting to use his position to bully the officer; and 3) most folks here think the story would have been quite different if both Gates and the officer were of the same race. do i have that right? - MikeAmundsen

btw, i read a copy of the police report from two officers here: [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...] - MikeAmundsen

Mike -- based on the evidence to date, the only racial profiling that occurred in this incident was applied by Henry Gates against James Crowley, and Gates did indeed try to bully Crowley with his supposedly superior authority, if the police report is to be believed. ("Do you know who you are messing with?") Gates could possibly contradict this impression with other facts, but he and Obama want to "move on" really fast -- like yesterday. - Sean McBride

According to that NYT article you've been citing, Crowley also wants to move on. Funny you keep only bringing up one side... - Andrew C

@AndrewC: you talkin' to me? - MikeAmundsen

No, to Sean. - Andrew C

AndrewC: ok, i thought so, just wanted to check. thanks. - MikeAmundsen

listening to released audio tapes here: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...] - MikeAmundsen

@SB: i know your opinion, just trying to characterize the general sentiment on this thread right now. - MikeAmundsen

Katy- thanks so much for framing our debate with the numbered system! This is the best discussion ever. Today, having a beer with my friend, I got a pretty good idea of what I think happened. Just a hunch, let's say. Crowley has taught racial sensitivity in the police corps for 5 years. It's his pride point. Gates calls him on it. Crowley's pride is hurt, extremely, and he forgets that... more... - anna sauce

Anna - that was Mike. I was just answering his questions and using his order and numbers. - Katy S

this thread is another example i can cite to show folks why i love FF. thanks to all. - MikeAmundsen

Anna -- curiously, your latest musings come close to my own -- except I would put more emphasis on Gates' strangely bad behavior. - Sean McBride

the thing that puts it past a "shoddy police work" is the police report that contains a conversation with Whalen that Whalen claims *never happened.* that's not just a minor detail, like getting the number of people rubbernecking on the sidewalk off. it's not a subjective difference. if Whalen is to believed, Crowley *fabricated* an entire conversation that never happened. that's beyond shoddy, it's fraudulent. - Karim

Leo Laporte

John Dvorak's Second Opinion: Is the party over for behemoth Microsoft? - MarketWatch - http://www.marketwatch.com/m...

July 25 from delicious - Comment - Like - Share

Igo Tan, Eric @ CSTechcast.com, TheHenry and 23 other people liked this

What's shocking is that the cash cows, specifically the Windows operating system and the Office suite, have managed to finance all these idiotic efforts for so many years. While Microsoft's profits and sales were way down this last quarter, it is only a matter of time before losses begin. Read more about the disappointing earnings. The cash cows are dying of neglect. This company cannot keep its eye on the ball because there are too many shiny objects to distract it. Now comes the latest fiasco: Microsoft wants to open retail stores, all of them next to or near an Apple store. - Leo Laporte

14 more comments

Copycats! How funny that THAT is all they can come up with. Stores...really. I don't like MS and I bet we could come up with 10 kick butt ideas for them that are better than that! - Tobin Truog

MS never innovated anything. DOS was purchased. Windows was designed at PARC. Their initial networking (NETBUI protocol) was flat without routing and was a pain to integrate with TCP/IP, WordPerfect and Netscape were killed by business practices instead of technology, every web designer has a CSS nightmare with IE and cross-browser compatibility, MS invented the idea that computers need... more... - Keith Barrett

I'd say lack of any true innovation is the cause of this. When you look at it, alot of the companies that are dying in this recession because they weren't really doing anything new for long periods of time. That's just the case here. - Hugh Isaacs II from iPod

This article completely misses the source of Microsoft's fastest growing products in the business sector. MS Dynamics products for business-line applications are one area that Microsoft is really gaining share (lumped in with Office sales if you look at their quarterly reports to hide that Office sales are declining). Also, I believe that Microsoft will start to realize different... more... - Chris Reichow

The bigger problem I think isn't just Microsoft, but really any large company, that is "innovating" by buying startups rather than creating an R&D culture/investment within the organization - Chris Reichow

My question for Dvorak is: What can MS do today to stay true to its core business as a software company? The fact is "software" does not have the growth like a few years ago. MS needs to diversify to keep growing, and yes some of those ideas failed. You can't fault a guy for trying - Andre P. Siregar

I propose that Microsoft needs to stop being a "incremental" company, or a "ever fixing company", and start at least using 20% of their resources to come with their "black stallion", they do need to innovate, just watch Google, they have so many things going because of the use of the 80-20 rule thus, if you have for the foreseeable time covered 80% of your business needs, you certainly... more... - Carlos F. Sam Castillo

First step is for BillG to fire SteveB. Ballmer has presided in one of the largest losses of shareholder equity of all time. If the baord was a responsible governing process it would boot him out. Second, review each business and shut those not making money. A slim, focused MS could then return to the fray and maybe even turn things around. Get back to work Bill ... - Jeff

Say what you want, if you havent tried Windows 7 with the Office 2010 stack you might be little surprised. It positively changed my workflow for the better. I still use linux,xp,vista and by far prefer Win 7. I can't wait for a Windows 7, touch screen, notebook, ion, atom, ssd, OLED and WIMAX. MS still has the largest Library like Video Games by orders of magnitude and there is a huge... more... - Robert Higgins

Windows 7 is a huge step in the right direction but I think Chrome is going to change the game. - Trent Hamm from iPod

funny when i read the earnings report it said that revenues took a hit because PC and server sales dropped. because of something called a "recession," which is apparently something that happened to the economy? news to me. but this must be microsoft's fault, right? this "recession" thing? - Karim

MSFT: 5 years -16.34%. AAPL 5 years: +942.25%. Dunno to which extent this is important. Maybe it is not unreasonable to ask Ballmer to go. Or it is, I am not sure. (I use Macs, an iPhone, two iPods and I also own a Sharp Zaurus.) - http://tr.im/u8Sd - Liviu Barbat

Liviu: http://www30.wolframalpha.com/input... might help you decide whether a percentage rise in stock price is more important than, say, the P/E ratio. - Karim

Thanks, Karim! I'm happy - Liviu Barbat

...I agree with those who say that the lack of true innovation is the real problem, but i'm not sure this is the kind of thing you can just flip a switch and start doing overnight. - .LAG liked that

sofarsoShawn to sofarsoShawn's feed, US Politics

Birthers embarrass the Republicans | Rightwing extremists who don't believe Barack Obama is a US citizen are making life hard for moderate Republicans http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment...

July 26 - Comment - Like - Share

Sean McBride, Joe, Rob Haas and 7 other people liked this

"Most political town hall meetings are pretty dull affairs. Not this one. The YouTube clip of an irate woman waving her birth certificate in a plastic bag and telling Delaware congressman Mike Castle that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, not the United States, has become an online sensation. Castle, a mild-mannered moderate, was booed when he insisted that our president is in fact a citizen. It's been on the Drudge Report, Rush Limbaugh and just about every political website out there. The session was so embarrassing that a Castle staffer felt obliged to tell a local columnist that the hecklers were from out of state. The birther controversy has a tight grip on rightwing opponents who argue that Obama is not the lawful president. FactCheck.org took a thorough look at the issue – and the birth certificate itself – and concluded: "It meets all of the requirements from the state department for proving US citizenship." The website went further: "We suggest that those who choose to go down... more... - sofarsoShawn

13 more comments

WOW that gets intense! - sofarsoShawn

Reap, sow, etc. - Ayşe E.

It's funny that the person who posted the video was a supporter of the woman who asked the question, while the people who made it viral were saying, "Wow! Look at this moron!" - Chris Johnson

This is what happens when you make craziness part of your party's mainstream. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

They are not just right wing extremists, they are nutjobs! How are these people not heavily medicated and strapped to a bed in a small padded room? lol - Heather

Jon Stewart hilariously featured this YouTube clip on last Wednesday's "The Daily Show": http://www.hulu.com/watch... go watch. trust me. :-D - Karim

Arggggg there's no Hulu in Canada!!! Comedy Central I think it is. & she's crazzzzzzyy! - sofarsoShawn

sorry about that, Shawn :-D it's roughly the first 9 minutes of this show: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-ep... - Karim

Thx LOL "Born Identity", & actually had to go here: for the .ca version http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/shows... I still can't belive they have a court case for him to present it - sofarsoShawn

Heh, Heather, I wonder how much the fact that Reagan dismantled state-run mental health programs and facilities has to do with how many nutjobs get to roam free. Who knew that what seemed to be a mere cost-saving measure may have actually also served the purpose of increasing the Republican base? - Victor Ganata

Survival of the fittest...that's totally Darwin/un-creationist so unscientific. - sofarsoShawn

Victor, never heard that theory before but then again the Reps have gone so batty that it makes sense. - Karma Martell

LOL see my above comment, and yeah Jon Stewart nails it - sofarsoShawn

lol Shawn, i thought you were quoting Stewart when you said "she's crazzzzzzyy!" but i guess it was just a case of Great Minds Think Alike? :-D - Karim

M F to M's feed, Places

Carcassonne castle, France - http://www.wayfaring.info/2009...

July 26 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Myrna, Rochelle, Karim and 3 other people liked this

"The ancient walled city of Carcassonne perched on a hill over the more modern extended town is an historical treasure. Located at the strategic intersection of two historic trade routes, from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean and from Spain to the center of France. In Carcassonne, visitors stroll along the cobblestone streets, browsing shops selling Medieval wares. Some describe it as a tourist-trap." - M F from Bookmarklet

they say "tourist trap" like that's a bad thing. :-D i guess if they build a modern replica and charge the same prices and call it a "theme park" nobody would have a problem with it :-D - Karim

Well said, Karim. - Ayşe E.

Karim

Pilots recreate Channel crossing - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...

July 25 - Comment - Like - Share

edythe, RAPatton and Michael W. May liked this

"Two pilots have successfully recreated the first flight across the English Channel, on the 100th anniversary of the achievement." - Karim

edythe

Guy next to me on the plane just came back from the bathroom with his face dripping wet. Dripping.

July 24 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Michael W. May, Hutch Carpenter, David Cook and 16 other people liked this

Eww. - Christian (Simply X)

13 more comments

Maybe he washed his face and there were no more towels? Hopefully it wasn't sweat from exertion! - Herb Hernandez

Ick. - ha3rvey (sup homepants)

Gross - Shevonne

Have a nice flight :P - Kamath (नमः)

Herb nooooo *brain bleach* - Kamilah Gill

ew? - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS

I'm laughing reading yours and mike fabio's tweets. Both of you at LAX on the same time. Both of you just boarded your plane. - Admiral Anika

Hopefully Mr. Lithgow won't be yelling about a man on the wing of the plane..... - Peter Ghosh

Oh, herb. That is a repulsive thought. He was an odd man... - edythe from iPhone

sorry, i had a bad curry. - Joe Silence is not dead

Blech. - Derrick

:\ - Ayşe E.

Was it over 100ml of dripping? 'cause I think regulations don't allow more than that =) - Micah Wittman

lol Peter. i had forgetten Lithgow was in the "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet" segment of the Twilight Zone movie. the segment opens with Lithgow dousing his face in the lavatory sink and he goes back to his seat with his face dripping wet. *dripping.* http://i25.tinypic.com/2rc770l... - Karim

M F to M's feed, Places, Fotograf

Lake Lugano - http://fiveprime.org/flickr_...

July 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Joe, Mycaptain, Jannifer @wordsforliving and 5 other people liked this

one of my favorite places. - Karim

Myrna to Myrna's feed, Photographing, Photo Gallery, Photography as Art, ART ROOMََََ

Fwd: Cotton Candy Bloom - http://www.foundshit.com/infared... (via http://friendfeed.com/photo-u...)

Fwd: Cotton Candy Bloom - http://www.foundshit.com/infared-cotton-candy-tree/ (via http://ff.im/5nIMv)

July 18 - Comment - Like - Share

Noah Belson, edythe, Seda and 48 other people liked this

♫ where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies...... ♫ - Karim

9 more comments

Niceeee Karim! Goes musically with the pink cotton candy! - Myrna

This might be the way a bird sees a tree, or an insect for that matter! - Charlie Barone

Can I have some of the electric kool-aid too? - Joe

is that your photo karim? - sally stokhamer

Charlie, you could be right! - Myrna

Anytime Joe :) - Myrna

no, sally, though i wish it was! :-) - Karim

Hey, here's the pink tree! .. like cotton candy only healthier. - Myrna

Pretty!! I like!! - Kelli Perez

Gorgeous - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

anna sauce

Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism - Yahoo! News - http://news.yahoo.com/s...

July 20 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Iván Abrego, Ladybug Heather, chrisofspades and 27 other people liked this

"Cambridge police were called to the home Thursday afternoon after a woman reported seeing a man "wedging his shoulder into the front door as to pry the door open," according to a police report." - anna sauce from Bookmarklet

58 more comments

omfg. I can't believe this. Who is the woman? How could she not know this is HLG? Sigh. - anna sauce

what the... - edythe

And arrested after he showed that he lived there! - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

he was disturbing the peace for not complying with the police (ie he was being a pain in the butt too :( - chaz2b

@Chaz - sometimes they level that charge if you open your mouth at all. It looks like his biggest crime was being black in an affluent neighborhood. - Jennifer Dittrich

Hey "Mob", feel like reading the police report? ( http://www.boston.com/news... ) Obviously only one side of the story, but there should be plenty of witnesses to the whole deal. Lets not grab our pitchforks just yet! - Rasmus Lauridsen

@Rasmus - but I've got mine ready and everything! - Jennifer Dittrich

Yes Jennifer, mine is all purty polished. Oh and you wouldn't believe how hot my "Thunderstorm 5000" super torch is :-P - Rasmus Lauridsen

Kudos to Rasmus for the torch shoutout. :D - Bette Cooper

So who here wouldn't be indignant and angry if the cops were called on you by a neighbor while in front of your own home? The police *write* the police reports. They can put whatever they want to in it. Suprise, lots of people don't believe the myth of Officer Friendly. - B. Hatin

Of course I would be steamed... then, in the midst of my steaming, I would show them my ID, then show them the door. I don't see a need to escalate things. If he didn't do that, and didn't need to be arrested, it will come out from witnesses. You know someone, somewhere, has a phone video of the whole thing, just waiting to put it up on YouTube. - Bette Cooper

They don't have to believe him. But there is two or more sides to every story. There is the police side, there's Dr. Gates side oh and there are a bunch of witnesses who actually you know witnessed the whole thing... What I am saying is that we have no clue what really went down, therefore we might want to wait before we call the police "redneck racist bastards". - Rasmus Lauridsen

Wait, his neighbor didn't recognize him. That is the real crime. - anna sauce

Can I just re-iterate, this is HENRY LOUIS GATES. He basically wrote the book on racism in America, and his neighbor thinks he's a thug breaking into his OWN HOUSE. - anna sauce

"He went to Yale and gained his B.A. summa cum laude in History. " - anna sauce

"Gates withdrew after a month at Yale Law School, and in October 1975 he was hired by Charles T. Davis as a secretary in the Afro-American Studies department at Yale. In July 1976, Gates was promoted to the post of Lecturer in Afro-American Studies with the understanding that he would be promoted to Assistant Professor upon completion of his dissertation. Jointly appointed to assistant... more... - anna sauce

Yes, there is a definite level of irony in this... So perhaps the next question is, did he have his back to her, so she couldn't identify him, or was she feeling spiteful because he wasn't the most pleasant of neighbors? Yet more questions... - Bette Cooper

"Gates has been the host and co-producer of African American Lives (2006) and African American Lives 2 (2008) in which the lineage of notable African Americans is traced using genealogical resources and DNA testing. In the first series, Gates learns of his European ancestry (50%), and in the second installment we learn he is descended from the Irish King, Niall of the Nine Hostages. He also learns that he is descended in part from the Yoruba people of Nigeria." - anna sauce

"In 2002 the National Endowment for the Humanities selected Gates for the Jefferson Lecture, the U.S. federal government's highest honor for achievement in the humanities.[7] Gates' lecture was entitled "Mister Jefferson and the Trials of Phillis Wheatley"[8] and was the basis for his book The Trials of Phillis Wheatley.[9]" - anna sauce

I think this points out that there are still lots of room for improvement in law enforcement, and the culture, in stereotyping indivduals- racial profiling, etc. - anna sauce

It's like calling Warren Buffet a pickpocketer because he put his hand in his pocket. - anna sauce

As a white woman, I've had strangers help me break into my house with no proof of ownership. I just had a traffic ticket waved. I mean, come on. - anna sauce

It's like that Eddie Murphy skit where he puts on white paint. Must be on youtube somewheres. - anna sauce

http://www.hulu.com/watch... - anna sauce

Reading the police report, it seems the person who called it in is kind of whack. - Victor Ganata

Definitely questions all around. The police reports reads a bit oddly, to me as a laywoman, but it is only one side of a multi-faceted tale. I will be waiting to hear how it all goes down over the next days. Yes, The States still have a long way to go, in general, to get past the attitudes and actions of the past. We all have to do our part, positively, to keep that in motion. - Bette Cooper

All I know for sure is this is not the last we will here of this story. - Kim Landwehr

it gets better. the woman who is mentioned in the police report? her name is lucia whalen. result #6 for "lucia whalen" is the harvard donations page: http://harvardmagazine.com/donate <-- really? his *neighbor* works for the fucking harvard magazine office AND DOESN'T KNOW HE LIVES THERE? - tiffany

I mean, seriously, how do you mistake your 58 year old neighbor for two black males with backpacks? - Victor Ganata

Honestly, you couldn't write this as fiction. It would be deemed heavy handed and proselytizing. No, but it happened in real life, which to me is just insane. And probably why more poeple are reading non-fiction than fiction lately. - anna sauce

Ooooh, Tiffany. Brilliant find. She's gonna be fired. - anna sauce

not my find, really. saw it in lizhenry's twitter stream - tiffany

OMFG. - Anna Lynn M.

reading everyone's comments...this is really atrocious. How do you not know Henry Louis Gates? Even if you don't read, he's all over TV being interviewed. How do you not know your own neighbor? I hardly see my neighbors but I know who flipping lives around me. WTF? - Anna Lynn M.

Anna, I know my neighbors but I didn't know who Mr. Gates was until today. - Jim Hearts FF

Yeah either 1) you know your neighbors, 2) you know you COWORKERS lol 3) you know HLG. One or the other? All 3? Has this woman been living under a rock? And I thought Cambridge was a small town. - anna sauce

I'm not entirely sure this Lucia woman who called it in is actually his neighbor. She works for harvard mag which appears to be located on Skip's street. In this sense it sounds like she was at work and saw some black people breaking into a harvard building (it's all on campus it looks like). Not an excuse not to knwo who he is (if she even got a good look), but she should probably at least know he lives in the area? Either way, i don't blame her for NOT knowing exactly who all her neighbors are... - Liz

Wow, I can see that she might make a mistake, but, wouldn't the police know who is supposed to live there? - Rick Cogley

He had ID! And the police still made a big deal out of it. It was a total cock-up. - anna sauce

anna, yeah, he sure did. And those officers are surely going to learn his name now... - Rick Cogley

Showing an ID doesn't mean the house you are breaking into is yours. - Willem (@wim66) ☠

Your address is usually on your ID - Amber, Random Time Lord

To those doubters on this thread that don't see what I see- a rather obvious racial profiling situation- tell the story to yourself without any detail that he's black, and see just how ludicrous it is. - anna sauce

On the one hand I can see his point, its difficult not to get angry when things like this happen. But even I know you don't raise your voice to a cop, Because the sad truth is, this could just as easily have been a story about how Henry Louis Gates got shot (and killed) on his own front porch. - J. Abdul-Qahhar

It all seems like another perfect lesson to our larger community or anyone ready to learn. It takes a high profile figure like Gates to shine 'the light'. So here he is, probably unknowingly, teaches the world yet another lesson. The cops, just pawns in the larger scheme of things. - Myrna

http://www.entertonement.com/clips... - Karim

Sean, its a big challenge to know when the other person is ready to listen in each unique situation. In this case, the cops. Better to use your intuition to know how to deal. Yelling or cursing can drive the wedge deeper, - Myrna

ok, up to the point that the officer wanted to verify that he was Harvard prof and he lived there, I'm fine with. It really should have stopped there, though. - Chieze Okoye

Sean, try venting your anger at someone who loves you or others who know and like you. See what happens. Imagine doing it to a stranger or a cop who usually(not always but many) went into police work because of some power thing. - Myrna

Freedom of speech, allow, in a perfect world. - Myrna

Looks like they dropped the charges: http://www.reuters.com/article... - Chieze Okoye

From my friend who lives in Cambridge: "I saw a thing in the Globe about Gates. Sounds like a clueless, racist neighbor (who never bothered to get to know her neighbors) and foolish police. I looked up his house. Looks like he's lived there since at least 2004. It's in a lovely, fancy, Harvardy neighborhood near harvard square." - anna sauce

Chieze, that's the first smart thing Cambridge PD has done. - anna sauce

Yup! http://ff.im/5wqb6 - Myrna

OMG is all that I can type write now. - Mathew A. Koeneker

Funny - HLG calls them racist, which they were, and he's "resisting arrest." - anna sauce

Yeah Myrna see the link above by Chieze. - anna sauce

Watching on CNN and also got tweet :) - Myrna

Got a tweet re: what? I've always wondered at folks who post without reading the whole thread. - anna sauce

edythe

tense and nervous / and i / can't relax...

July 21 - Comment - Like - Share

Parth Awasthi, Anna Haro, Lindsey is Fierce! and Chris, Taskerrific Guy liked this

♫ qu'est-ce que c'est? ♫ - Karim

3 more comments

:( - Laura Lou Who

Psycho killer! - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

Don't touch me, I'm a real live wire - Hiro Asari

fa fa... - edythe

Jason Toney

You Just Can’t Make This Stuff Up. - http://misterjt.tumblr.com/post...

July 20 from Wow and Flutter - Comment - Like - Share

Derrick, Joe Silence is not dead, John (a.k.a. dendroica) and 6 other people liked this

Open and shut case, Johnson,” he says to his partner. “I saw a case just like this when I was a rookie. Apparently, this nigger broke into this house and hung up pictures of his family everywhere! Dave Chappelle, as it relates to Henry Louis Gates, Jr. today via postbourgie.com Related articles by Zemanta Henry Louis Gates Arrested (nytimes.com) Posted via web from The Pensieve | Comment » - Jason Toney

4 more comments

nonplussed. - Karim

At a loss for words. I'm furious for Dr. Gates. I hope he can get some sleep tonight. I'd be on the ceiling. And god, we need Dave Chappelle back! - Ayşe E.

I find it hard to fathom that the officer found it necessary to arrest Gates after I.D. was produced. My guess is, whatever Gates' behavior, he would have been arrested. The officer needed to muddy the waters against the inevitable charges that were coming against him. Strictly CYA. - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS

wow - .LAG liked that

http://www.entertonement.com/clips... - Karim

Robert Scoble

Software Engineering: Dead? - http://www.codinghorror.com/blog...

July 19 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

İdris Cin, Amir, Arvind and 14 other people liked this

@scobleizer i agree, software developement is craftsmanship, not engineering - Kevin Tunis

7 more comments

"What we do IS crafmanship." hard to agree, I can see the logic behind it, yes. But it could be both, I mean engineering is kind of a craftmanship? - Özgür D. Cyric

contentious point on the surface that probably devolves to a semantic argument. i think the bottom line is that the paper's author, Tom DeMarco, is just mellowing out a bit in his old age. :-D you start off at one end of the spectrum (engineering Nazi) and you're bound to eventually realize hey sometimes you can just wing it. look at Twitter -- more hacked together than engineered, not especially reliable, but it has played an important role. - Karim

Control is needed not for completion, unlike other disciplines, but for sustaining Software. Maintaining Semantic Hygiene is the Hardest task there is in Software Engineering Management. http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Vasu Srinivasan

This is anathema to the entire software outsourcing industry that has grown on the premise that s/w development can be predictably controlled. - Mahendra (SkepticGeek)

Leaving aside the sensational title, I think Jeff's point is that certain traditional practices like waterfall, software-as-a-manufacturing-process, discrete estimation, etc. never really accurately depicted the practice of building software. Jeff makes some good points, but I'm not sure that *craftsmanship* is the last word on this topic. - Matthew Trunnell

It will be engineering again when computers stop getting faster every year. Would you really spend a lot of time engineering the mpg of a car if you knew that gasoline was going to be 2x as effective every 18 months? - Sam Pullara

I think, s/w craftmanship is evolving to s/w engineering. IDE's are getting better, ALM tools and models are getting better. We have better tools, better models and new ideas to build s/w... Unlike any other engineering dicipline, s/w engineering is highly depend on intellectual property while developing s/w product. - Ersan Bilik

It's impressive to see Tom DeMarco, a key figure in Software Engineering, acknowledge that for some software projects controlling what can be measured should not be management's goal, it would be the same as raising a teenager by focusing on 'objective' grades. This is not the same as saying software development is a craft and not engineering. - Erik Erkelens

Michael W. May to Michael's feed, Music, Share Music (No Video)

The 405 - Mixtape: Moon Landing Special - http://thefourohfive.com/article...

July 20 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Mathew A. Koeneker, Lars Clausen, Bluesun 2600 and 5 other people liked this

"1. R.E.M - Man On The Moon 2. Frank Sinatra - Fly Me To The Moon 3. Asobi Seksu - Walk On The Moon 4. Bat For Lashes - Moon and Moon 5. The Drums - Me And The Moon 6. Nick Drake - Pink Moon 7. Atlas Sound - Blue Moon 8. Earth - Hung From The Moon 9. The Walkmen - Red Moon 10. Echo & The Bunnymen - The Killing Moon Click here to download the entire mixtape!" - Michael W. May from Bookmarklet

2 more comments

:) love the killing moon. but man on the moon is one r.e.m. song i really don't care for. - edythe

♫ giant steps are what you take / walking on the moon / i hope my legs don't break / walking on the moon ♫ - The Police - Karim

Definitely, The Police, "Walking on the Moon." Killer bass line... - Fossil Huntress

FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Found this shirt at Goodwill yesterday. They're right, you won't understand it.

July 19 from email - Comment - Like - Share

(jeff)isageek, Brian, Ňicķ and 43 other people liked this

That there's Southern, huh? - Christopher Harley

23 more comments

MoonPie + RC = a many decades long tradition. I'll let you in on a li'l secret though: I don't particularly like MoonPies. People here blame it on the fact that my parents grew up in Detroit ;-) - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

I've never had a MoonPie. Not the biggest fan of marshmallow. - Akiva Moskovitz

I never have had one either. - Yolanda

I don't think I've had either. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Hates marshmallow and would only eat the cookie parts, and even then: Meh. --> - Derrick

my mom loved MoonPies and RC; not necessarily at the same time. - jbrotherlove

I don't mind a few 'raw' marshmallows but I don't like them cooked or in things. - Akiva Moskovitz

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm. - Daniel J. Pritchett from iPhone

I don't get how folks can eat marshmallows right out of the bag. Squicks me out. - Yolanda

The dusty, matte exterior is the best part. There's just something really pleasing about that texture. The internal gooey bit isn't nearly as good but I'll suffer it for that initial touch. - Akiva Moskovitz

We had moon pies at our swimming pool when I was a kid. Always had enough money to buy a moon pie for afternoon snack, also most likely reason I had to go to the chubby section for school clothing. - Janet

a moonpie store opened in charleston a few weeks ago. stopped in there for the first time a couple of days ago. didn't get to try a moonpie, but they did have a cool looking soda/ice cream counter. - Imabug

I have consumed many of both in my youth. - Brent - Loving Life

Oh, I understand it. It's still gross. - Steven Perez

You're absolutely right. I don't really drink soda and don't eat many sweets. Consequently...I need one of those with a pic of a latte and a cigarette. lol - Christian (Simply X)

I understand ;) - Lindsey is Fierce!

Well, Christian, if we can change it then I want one with a bunch of cheerleaders and a duffle bag of ransom money. I'll keep the tagline though. - Christopher Harley

I love moon pies and just had RC when I was home for the 4th - Alan Simpson

A MoonPie, heated for 20 seconds in a microwave with two scoops of homemade vanilla ice cream on top and a cold RC cola ( or Diet Rite if that's too much sugar) THAT'S a wonderful memory and makes me hungry. BTW, I have Mini MoonPies in the pantry right now :) - Andy Glover

LOVE the combo... and the proper pronunciation is "Moom-pie and AR-cie coluh" - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS

http://news.yahoo.com/s... That's one small snack for man... - Karim

Karim, that's one GIGANTIC moonpie! - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

tina - you grew up in detroit? wow. that explains a lot. (i tease because i love) - Morgan Haley

No dear, I grew up in SC. My parents both lived in Detroit until they were teenagers, and then both their families moved to TN (which is where they met). - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Robert Scoble

I wonder how many people and companies are changing their passwords and policies this morning because of #twittergate and http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... ? I know I am, I was doing a few of the stupid practices that caught Twitter.

July 19 - Comment - Like - Share

carl morris, Robin Whitson, siggimus and 77 other people liked this

Does anyone have a good blog post for how to come up with strong password names and policies? - Robert Scoble

71 more comments

yep, https://www.grc.com/passwor... - Mark

taht's great, I am also willing to change my password. - Madhav Tripathi

1Password on the Mac... - Holger Eilhard

not for corp use but for personal use 1Password is perfect - Mike Bracco

Holger: beat me to it :) - Mike Bracco

Mike: Sometimes I'm faster. Rarely, but happens :-) - Holger Eilhard

I will write a blog post about it. - Madhav Tripathi

Robert on the network side of things there are programs that generate strong passwords. But you can develop a "feel" for it. I have to create them all the time. Just don't use "memory aids" they lead to social hacks - Melanie Reed

You're okay if you don't use 3rd party apps to login to Twitter, right? - Steven E. Streight

I like this one. http://www.pctools.com/guides... - Logan Lindquist

Sorry, should have linked to the TechCrunch article about how the hacker broke into Twitter: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... - Robert Scoble

Steven: this isn't about your Twitter account's security. It's about your security on the Web. - Robert Scoble

Here's some password policies you might find interesting: http://www.nersc.gov/nusers... , http://www.comptechdoc.org/indepen... , http://www.sans.org/resourc... - imabonehead

I have no need because my passwords have always been 12+ characters, include caps, random characters, and numbers. I'm sure most people that use FF are the same way. The engineers I work with bitch about my choice of passwords all the time. - coldbrew

The sad reality is any password can be hacked. It's just a matter of time as in attrition. But you can make it harder for them with strong passwords - Melanie Reed

Yeah, we've always tried to make sure our hosting customers understand how important it is create good passwords, but many still use bad passwords, hopefully all of this recent press will scare them into using better passwords. Most people don't care about their password until something bad happens to them. It's similar to people who ignore making backups and then find out the hard way. - Scott Beale

I use Lastpass.com to generate and save passwords. - mrshl

Just pick a couple good ones that you can use for different things. Practice typing them so you can remember the keystrokes easier. The more you use them the easier it will be to remember. Use keepass or FFox to keep track of them. - Logan Lindquist

1Password hands down for ease of use and strong password creation on OSX and iPhone - Jerry Schuman

I wrote this regarding Twitter, security & the cloud: Here's my thoughts http://www.thetechnewsblog.com/2009... #twittergate - Jim Connolly

Melanie: it's the social hacks that will catch the most people. Not the strength of the passwords. Notice that he didn't need to guess the passwords, he just needed to use the ecosystem against itself. - Robert Scoble

http://esciencenews.com/article... - imabonehead

I agree 100% about 1Password, one of the best Mac apps out there: http://agilewebsolutions.com/product... - Scott Beale

Roboform on Windows. Otherwise 1Password. - Herb Hernandez

Very few. People and companies generally don't make policy changes until they're bitten themselves. - Darren

Good point about social engineering, Scoble. - coldbrew

I ended up writing this http://blog.siliconverse.com/2009... - Ruchit Garg

Robert: yes. its the easiest hack to employ - Melanie Reed

Or there's a business requirement . e.g. Customers inquire about policies based on what they've read in the news and impose requirements on their partners. - Darren

If you need cross-platform then I'd look at http://www.keepassx.org - Jerry Schuman

1 - Mark

Unfortunately most companies don't change passwords until they have too, the IT department doesn't want to deal with the calls when someone can't remember there password. - Kim Landwehr

my 14 character alphanumeric pass for my gmail account was hacked about 2mo ago. After fixing, Ive gone and changed all passes; & none of them are of the same ilk. my twitter account is the simplest; cause i care less if its hacked. - clarke thomas

The best thing to happen to corporate security was the public insecurity of Microsoft software int the late part of the 90s and earlier in the decade. - Darren

I use Roboform Password Manager to navigate and automatically login to websites using complex passwords: http://www.eenmanierom.nl/wachtwo... (Dutch post but Google Translate is nearby). - Patrick Mackaaij

a lot, I hope..... - Alex Griffiths

FTR, I use Keepass (hosted on sourceforge). - coldbrew

I had to this week my XBL account was hacked. - Dylan Richardson

I had to change everything and cancel 2 cards. - Dylan Richardson

I use GRC to gen and never use anything less than 20 chars unless the site doesn't support that length. Sometimes I use the first 20 in a 64 bit key, sometimes I use the last 20, sometimes I pick the middle 20. Sometimes I use 21, 22, 23, 19 char length. I also lie on all reminder questions. - Brian Daniel Eisenberg

I use a hosted version of clipperz (http://clipperz.com/), totally random passwords, web accessible from anywhere and hosted on my own server. - Justin Yost

same here, Justin. I use lastpass which generates random passwords, and has one master password, which is a very secure one. - Tim Hoeck

A couple of months ago, my gmail was hacked. They then quickly went and changed my Itunes account over to another email and started buying iphone apps. In the about an hour and a half, that they had control over my email they spent almost $1000. Luckily they made the mistake of changing the name and language on my account. I don't use the email much anymore but g reader so I spotted it.... more... - Rasmus Lauridsen

for years, private corporate systems have had security measures like password strength policies for a domain, password age policies, secure connection requirements, logon policies that deny multiple logons, locking out user accounts after multiple password failures, etc. etc. etc. this incident with Twitter is a huge wake-up call. - Karim

What first caught my eye was this article was written by Nik Cubrilovic. I had wondered what had happened to him, and hoped everything was well with him. - Lloyd Budd

Yeah, Nik was in the TechCrunch office when I was there the other day. I figured a big story was underway cause Arrington told me to stop wasting Nik's time and to go bug the interns. :-) - Robert Scoble

Making an awesomely strong password wouldn't have prevented this attack. It was using the same awesomely strong password that made the attack possible. And who hasn't done that? There's just too many apps that require passwords out there. - marziah

I typically use KeePass to generate as strong a password as I can. I try to keep passwords to a minimum of 20 characters and use letters, numbers and symbols...some sites allow this some do not. If there is a password character max I will use that max (within reason). The problem I have is with some of the accounts I want to be able to access from my Blackberry. Having a 50 character... more... - Sean Brady

I use RoboForm to create all my passwords. I have them backed up and honestly couldn't type one out if I tried, they all are 14-16 chars long - George Handlin

+1 George. A good pw generator like RoboForm or 1password can save you a lot of grief later on. - Bill Sodeman

interesting experiment, make accounts at free websites and have really awful passwords and see how long it takes to get hacked! - Mark

I agree with Sean Brady, makes it tough entering on the blackberry. Especially how sometimes it will cap the first character and when it's masked, makes it even tougher. Wish there was something I could host on my own server that would work with all my machines (Win/Mac) and my phones. I don't like the idea of storing on some hosted service. Thinking of trying RoboForms hosted service since they are trusted and I've gained personal trust for the application. - George Handlin

It makes me anxious not knowing my password is for a particular site... so I've always been wary of things like 1password or roboform. I also need something that I can pull up from any computer, which rules out 1password. I've heard good things about supergenpass - Mark Philpot

Take a look at Clipperz then, if you can get to the internet you can get to Clipperz (http://www.clipperz.com/) - Justin Yost

Justin - @jtyost2 - I just checked out www.clipperz.com for the password mgmt, looks promising, but wish there were better integration w/ Firefox somehow. It's pretty cumbersome to get started. - Alex Schleber

Yeah that is a drawback. - Justin Yost

thanks 4 reminder should do it now arrgh!! as we speak!! - polou/indigo_bow

Robert due to all the virus issues we went to a more secured password format 3 months ago. We use a minimum of 8 characters numbers letter and mixed case password plus you can not use your name. We force our users to change their passwords every 3 months. - Rob Cairns

I think for a security policy to be effective it has to be secret... - Alexandros Georgiadis

KeePass (Win) and KeePassX (cross platform) is excellennt! Strong public encryption and publicly available source code. I would love to go with LastPass, they have a beautiful cross platform syncing solution, but since they are closed source (for now) I'm holding off switching to their product. - Daniel Chow

I stopped using the same password years ago. To help me keep up with the various passwords, I have been using KeePass on Windows, Windows Mobile and OS X for several years; I'm waiting for iKeePass to become available. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

http://www.yubico.com/home... for hardware PW protection, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US... FireFox addon LastPass is for software app, https://www.grc.com/passwor... for GRC's ultra High Security (put it on a usb flash and copy paste), http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2008... geeks know everything! - Rich Weaver

Yep the 'ecosystem' is undoubtedly insecure. I believe this type of hacking also has elements of social engineering to it. I dislike the "secret questions" as today when most people's personal information is transparent online what purpose do those questions serve, except to weaken security? Can we please opt out of dumb security questions... someone start a petition or something! - ASKJDOG

Great Post, I learned more about improving my security in 15 minutes than I would have at a 2 day seminar. :) - Robert Higgins

I hope the lasting legacy of twittergate is better security thanks to articles like this one. - Stephen Mack

I use http://passwordmaker.org/ for most of my password, it means I only need to remember a single password and it generates a unique password for each site I use (by hashing my password with the url). For the remaining sites, I use http://passwordsafe.sourceforge.net/ and dropbox to sync my password database across machines. - Wilka Hudson

I see many people using/recommending password generator sites. I also recommend these, but one day I thought - what if the password generators are hacked? --> http://robotterror.com/site... - Robert J Taylor

Password Maker (the first link) isn't just a password generator site - I use it as a FireFox plugin. It's also open source, so if you're really unsure about the safety of it you can have a look at the code yourself. I realise that's not a very good answer for an non-coders, but it does mean that if it was hacked *somebody* would notice and it would be all over blogs like Bruce Schneier http://www.schneier.com/blog/ - Wilka Hudson

Also, for you those of using Firefox - you should look at this: http://cubicledenizen.blogspot.com/2008... - Wilka Hudson

I think unless we develop somethig better than passwords we will never fix the problem. Using different strong passwords is good but it's no better than locking a cycle up outside a store, they just ensure that only dedicated people hack your acount/steal your cycle, which in general are the worst people to hack your account. - Darren Rollett

Some people on here have informed the world what their password policy is and what tool they use to generate passwords. If this had been a conversation down the pub then probably not a problem but if I want information on high value passwords FriendFeed would probably be the place to go due to the people who use the system. - Darren Rollett

Nobody has mentioned https://mashedlife.com - it uses a bookmarklet to log you into your sites. That way you can use anything for the password. Cliperz looks like a similar system. - Daniel Siva

Atul Arora

The Death of Email (yay!) | Thomas Crampton - http://www.thomascrampton.com/interne...

July 19 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

LANjackal, metalerik, Altan Khendup and 13 other people liked this

"With the rising popularity of Instant messenger, Twitter-style status updates in social networks and other alternate forms of online communication, it is not surprising to see the continued decline of email usage among younger Internet users." - Atul Arora from Bookmarklet

10 more comments

I am young and I still use Email? - Matt Ruiz

Now lets compare this to a graph of percent change in sending messages through other services like Facebook, Myspace, and Twitter DMs. - Mitch

i'm using email more and more... - Chris Heath

Why is that "yay!"? I understand why it's happening, but I'm not sure why you're happy about it. - Rochelle

how can there be a negative percentage of ppl? - chaz2b

to quote Pauli, this is "not even wrong." 1) how the author can conclude that something that is growing in all demographic groups, except for one with a 7% decline, equals "dying" is beyond me. 2) the numbers are for *Japan.* not the world. 3) this is a study of web-based email specifically. the numbers *don't include* people who use things like Outlook, Mail.app, Entourage, Thunderbird, etc. 4) the numbers also don't include people who access email via PDA or *mobile phone.* - Karim

the Comscore press release says, "The younger demographic segments either decreased or witnessed very little increase in visits to email sites, which can likely be attributed to a greater reliance on alternate communication channels including social media and accessing email via mobile devices." for all we know the 7% downtick in teens is attributable to the iPhone :-D - Karim

read for yourself: http://www.comscore.com/Press_E... - Karim

ty, karim - chaz2b

[doffs hat] :-) i just hate it when people yank statistics out of context and start screaming their insane pet theory is proved. :-D - Karim

me 2, so thanks again - chaz2b

Myrna to Myrna's feed, Foods, Fotograf, Persian Cam, Photographing

looks good but what is it? anyone? *addendum: "This Is Just To Say" by William Carlos Williams I have eaten the plums that were in the icebox and which you were probably saving for breakfast Forgive me they were delicious so sweet and so cold - http://www.photoforum.ru/photo...

July 17 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Arnaldo M Pereira, Bill Kinney, Hanna Wiszniewska and 16 other people liked this

Plum? - Joe

50 more comments

Its a peach? - Joe

Plum - Rodfather

But peaches and nectarines are yellow orangie - Myrna

I just like the photograph shot! Click and make it bigger..gorgeous - Myrna

grapes? - chaz2b

We have a plum tree in the backyard. This is what they look like washed. http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Rodfather

even washed, looks like grapes, :o - chaz2b

chaz, can I find fruits that cause as much commotion as chocolate treats? - Myrna

If there were music as beautiful as this plum we'd all be singing for our supper! - Charlie Barone

awwwww Charlie, what nice words...next step, poem :))) - Myrna

I wish that there may never be a plum - Charlie Barone

Of which you will not give me some - Charlie Barone

We have two types of plums ripe in our yard right now. - Joe

I think I am going to go pick one. - Joe

Joe, let me know :) - Myrna

bananas? http://www.globalgourmet.com/food... - chaz2b

Plum! - Rochelle

chaz, hot fudge. is that what you want? http://ff.im/5n8ZR - Myrna

Rochelle, looks like. - Myrna

plums - william carlos williams used as a metaphor - - sally stokhamer

Sally, what was the metaphor? - Myrna

myrna, william carlos williams was a writer of imagist poetry - this poem, for me, creates a picture of a note written perhaps for a lover, the plum being the lover from whom he took everything and gave nothing back and now asks for forgiveness - - sally stokhamer from email

Forgiveness, after all that sucking lol.. - Myrna

funny that's exactyly how i felt and still do when i read the poem - (he was an m.d. from n.j. and from what i understand, delivered almost every baby in his town) - - sally stokhamer from email

Do you have a link to his poem? - Myrna

http://www.poets.org/viewmed... when you read it tell me if you think "they were so cold" implies how he felt about his lover - and talk to me about "kabbalah" which is an interest of mine - considering that madonna is now a follower, we've come a long way from the ancients, all men, who never allowed a woman to "go there" - - sally stokhamer from email

link won't work - the poem is "this is just to say" - william carlos williams - - sally stokhamer from email

Ok, will check it out..as soon as I find some good breakfasts for FF :)))) - Myrna

Sally, found it! Love it! Even read all about it, just from finding a pretty photo that was a bit mystifying at first. Look what comes from just a plum. :) Thx! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Myrna

myrna - all things are connected - there are no coindidences - - sally stokhamer from email

I know, :)) - Myrna

This is just to say / there are many parodies / of that Williams poem / Sadly, most of them / have nothing to do / with plums / Forgive me / I know how much / you hate / thread hijacking - Karim

LOL Karim, who said I hate? - Myrna

just about to post to karim but you got there first myrna - nothing to hate here at all - the more that's spoken, the more there is to learn - - sally stokhamer from email

<3 - Myrna

actually there's a good collection of "This is just to say" parodies in an episode of "This American Life" called "Mistakes Were Made": http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_E... -- fast-forward to about 50 minutes in to listen to the "This is just to say" segment. - Karim

TY Karim <3 - Myrna

karim, please tell me a poem where a parody is used for the williams' poem - i've never been one to listen to someone take something serious and mock or ridicule it - i've always thought it was a way to get attention - an ego thing - - sally stokhamer from email

your reply came before my post to you - thanx karim - - sally stokhamer from email

myrna what did your 2 posts mean - <Ty Karim 3 and the other just <3 - sally stokhamer from email

karim - a parody mocks or ridicules - please tell me one poem about plums that you have in mind - - sally stokhamer from email

TY=Thank You <3=heart - Myrna

i'm glad i asked - it's better than trying to guess which i could never have done - thank you - - sally stokhamer from email

sally -- sorry, didn't have any other poems about plums in mind... i don't think a parody necessarily mocks (treats with contempt) the original -- often the best parodies clearly *love* the original, but they replace the serious bits with funny or silly ones. (e.g. Weird Al Yankovic's "Fat" vs. Michael Jackson's "Bad," National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings" vs. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings," etc.) - Karim

thank you karim - - sally stokhamer from email

though i did find a parody of "This is just to say" that does involve plums: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre... - Karim

you're the first person i've known who's read ed dorn's writings - tried many times to read "gunslinger" but just can't seem to stick with it but as i said to myrna today, 'there are no coincidences in life' (and i know that this is no coincidence) - - sally stokhamer from email

karim, doesn't sean cole play guitar and sing besides writing poetry? - sally stokhamer from email

myrna i get that TY is "thank you" but what about the 3=heart? reminded me a little of john donne's "batter my heart, 3 personed god" when i first saw your email - - sally stokhamer from email

Sally, its not just 3 alone. <3 is the symbol for heart. On other sites it shows up as a heart. - Myrna

sally, i know next to nothing about ed dorn -- though i might have to find other work of his to read, now... :-) don't know about sean cole's music, but it wouldn't surprise me -- there are a lot of multi-talented people working in public radio. where else could you find a radio show that connected apologies, cryogenics, and poetry about plums? :-D - Karim

Om Malik

Remember that, young people, you may be important now, but there will come a day when no one knows your name. @davewiner http://www.scripting.com/stories...

July 19 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Don Strickland, Liviu Barbat, professor daddyo and 3 other people liked this

sic transit gloria mundi - Karim

Robert Scoble

I'm uninstalling Outlook 2010. Why? I need it to sync with Google Calendar and that doesn't work in new version.

July 18 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Susan Beebe, Robert Freeze, Hutch Carpenter and 2 other people liked this

you can't just view the iCal version of your Google Calendar as described here: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us... ? that works fine for viewing your Google Calendar in Outlook. or are you saying Google Calendar Sync doesn't work with Outlook 2010? - Karim

4 more comments

never mind. if you just want to view your Google Calendar in Outlook 2010 (1-way sync), the iCal version should work just fine. if you want 2-way sync (i.e. enter calendar items in Outlook and have them move to Google Calendar) then you probably want Google Calendar Sync, which, it turns out is hardcoded by Google to not work with Office 2010. http://www.markwilson.co.uk/blog... - Karim

Karim: right, I need two-way sync. - Robert Scoble

I gave up on Outlook and use a mix of Thunderbird and Google Apps. - Chris Abraham

I cut Outlook out of my life months ago. There are some downsides....but not as many as the upsides, IMHO. - Curt Mercadante

Google can do 2-way Exchange syncing for contacts and calendar: It's how I sync my iPhone: http://m.google.com/sync - Richard Hodgson

Robert Scoble

Playing with Outlook 2010. Seems a bit rough and they moved all the chairs on the deck. Fun that I know Gmail better than I know O2010 now.

July 18 - Comment - Like - Share

Warren Whitlock, Daniel Rowley, Robert Mattar and 7 other people liked this

There are so many features in the Ribbon that it makes me want Gmail. That's not a good trend for new users. - Robert Scoble

32 more comments

It'll run great on Google Chrome OS. On a $100 ARM based Chrome OS netbook. - Charbax

Also, the new "group conversation" features are pretty rough. I can see why Office will take at least six more months to finish off. They need to shave off the splinters here. - Robert Scoble

The Ribbon is the worst UI metaphor. - Jonathan Brown

Charbax: I don't think Outlook 2010 will run on Chrome. The web version will, of course, but I'm playing with the installed version. - Robert Scoble

Or are you talking about Gmail? :-) - Robert Scoble

Jonathan: I overall like the Ribbon. It makes me think of the Web. - Robert Scoble

I still find it odd people actually use Outlook. I definitely did not grow up with it and want nothing to do with it - Braden Douglass

Braden: yeah, I've used Microsoft's email program since the early 1990s. It's a hard habit to give up. Especially if you have a job inside a big company that uses Exchange for email and calendaring. - Robert Scoble

Robert: You may be one of the only who does. It annoys me to no end... in every Office application. - Jonathan Brown

Jonathan: actually Microsoft instrumented it and knows you're wrong because apps that have the new Ribbon get more feature usage. - Robert Scoble

Jonathan: but this argument is something I've had EVERYTIME a new UI gets introduced, not just at Microsoft. See Facebook, for instance, or old Mac arguments. - Robert Scoble

If I had more time I would have been able to convince my friend that works for M$ to show me Office 2010 the other day. - Jesse Stay

i am liking Outlook 2010. seems a little snapper than 2007 on this setup which surprised me for a Technical Preview. i wasn't crazy about Conversation view at first but i'm slowly warming up to it. want to give it a chance, anyway. under "Mobile Options" i like the idea of sending & receiving SMS from Outlook -- not so much liking the idea of *paying* for it, though :-D - Karim

Jesse: if you want to see what it does, check this out: http://friendfeed.com/scoblei... - Robert Scoble

Robert: Increased feature usage is not a function of the Ribbon, it's a result of changing behaviors and forcing people to look for the old button to do their job. - Jonathan Brown

When you try to setup a Gmail account in 2010, does it auto configure your settings for you yet? - Alex Knight

patience grasshopper. All good things aren't always accessible immediately. Do you remember how long it took you to learn gmail? R U a gmail Ninja yet. LOL Maybe Office2010 is the same. - derikp

Robert: That's like saying changing a navigation menu that used to be very easy to find and hiding it 4 levels deep is an improvement because more people click on menu items. - Jonathan Brown

Alex: yup, worked just like it was supposed to with Gmail. Actually did a better job than Outlook 2007. - Robert Scoble

Good to hear. I wonder if MS is ever going to get away from PST files though. I'd like to see that happen. - Alex Knight

for the Ribbon Luddites there is now a tiny button next to the Help button that hides the Ribbon. click. *poof* gone. - Karim

Thanks Robert - I missed that as I was traveling (although I did catch the post). My lunch meeting with my friend was very interesting - M$ is very aware of their mobile problems and it is a very painful thorn in their side, internally that they really want to fix. - Jesse Stay

I wonder whether the 'softies fixed any of the bugs & annoyances in Outlook 2003 (the last version I used). I imagine they were too busy fooling with the exciting! new! Ribbon to dirty their hands on last year's code. - Pat Rice

Pat: there's lots of bugs that have been fixed since Outlook 2003 but lots of new ones too, I'm sure. What specifically bugged you? I'll go and check. - Robert Scoble

IMAP support was heinously broken. If you don't wave the dead chicken exactly right when installing Office, you get random Office installer popups when doing other things - "I'm doing something to your computer! No, I won't tell you what it is! Oops, it didn't work, sorree!" Creating cross-references - e.g., a calendar item for a contact's birthday - left the full path & name of your... more... - Pat Rice

Pat: I'm pretty sure that was improved in Outlook 2007, but am not sure. I'm not sure about in Outlook 2010, though. I need to uninstall it, because I need Outlook to sync with Google Calendar and that doesn't yet work. Sigh. - Robert Scoble

I've always found the ribbon more intuitive then Outlook interfaces of the past...however I'm back to GMail web and windows live hotmail....I've converted all my docs to open document format and if I really need a word processor, which I rarely use anymore these days there is OpenOffice.Org :) - John Blanton

John: Once you're on Gmail getting used to Google Docs instead of OpenOffice is a snap. - Robert Scoble

The customizable part of the O2007UI, where I can add my own flipping buttons (instead of hunting for them) is my friend. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

You seem surprised they moved the chairs on the deck.. I don't know about you, but I had to help *lots of people* SHUT DOWN their Vista machines when they first got them!! Yeah yeah I know Start seems like a bad place for the shut down option.. but Millions of people had it figured out, and accepted it.. and then they moved it, Bloody Hell!! - Chris Myles

me to Gmail is all you need MS have left it too late - Thomas Power

I uninstalled Office 2007 then installed Office 2010 tech preview .. and now I can't activate ..were we supposed to be able to or not? I don't know. - John Blanton

Just found out from Microsoft Connect it really doesn't matter.. Even if it says Office 2010 is running in trial mode it really isn't .. Oh well bug filing time :) - John Blanton

Nir Ben Yona

What's Your Favorite Beer?

July 17 - Comment - Like - Share

Erick Wessels, Mitchell Tsai, امير کبير and 57 other people liked this

Mine are Stella Artois, Miller and Corona. - Nir Ben Yona

145 more comments

Very much enjoying dogfish head 60 minute IPA. I also like racer 5. - Ted Roden

Menabrea and Hoegaarden - alieb

Newcastle Brown Ale, Carlsberg and Hoegaarden - Rasmus Lauridsen

Invincible by the Irving Brewery, Fuller's (formerly Gale's) HSB, and Theakston's Old Peculiar. - Mark H

Bitburger, Erdinger, Weltenburg - did i mention that i like beer? ;) - Ronald

I've tasted so many beers. I'm trying to figure out if people drink their local beer or prefer others. - Nir Ben Yona

Rodenbach, Anchor Steam, Unibroue, Chimay - Mark Philpot

Heineken - Willem (@wim66) ☠

Uhmm Chimay shuld make my list also... - Rasmus Lauridsen

I think it depends on the season. Right now, probably Widmer Hefeweizen - Rodfather

I don't have a true favorite, but I like Newcastle Brown Ale, Smithwick's, Blue Moon, and the various Flying Fish beers. Default to Yuengling if nothing better is available. But I'll try anything at least once. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

the gluten free one that tastes like crap, because at least it won't kill me. - Steve C

I really like Newcastle a lot, and Hoegaarden. I tend to like the Hefeweizens. - Derrick

Season drinking is an interesting issue, and If you happen to think you know so many beers, there's always a new brand that pops up in the wild. - Nir Ben Yona

"Riggwelter" by Black Sheep is a fine ale :) Lager wise, Sam Smiths "Alpine Ale" is nice too. Can't discount the real Budweiser too (Of the Budvar persuasion... not the American piss water ;) ) - alphaxion

I'm just now really getting into enjoying beer. Where's Ben? Is there a beer room? - Derrick

aye, those teetotalers don't know what they're missing. I'd also like to point out that if you're drinking with the only intent to get drunk, you're doing it wrong ;) - alphaxion

alphaxion: agreed on both :) - Nir Ben Yona

Wisconsin Amber from Capital Brewery so far :) http://www.capital-brewery.com/ourbeer... but Warsteiner Dunkel is a close second. - Lindsey is Fierce!

I'm a pilsener guy. I like Warsteiner, Wernesgruner, Radeberger and Czechvar (aka Budvar aka Czech Budweiser). If you like beer, I'd recommend a documentary called Beer Wars http://beerwarsmovie.com. - Mark Wilson

So Newcastle Brown Ale is known outside the UK. I didn't know that. Was the drink of choice of early clubbing because it was large (reduced queuing to get another) and you could stick a finger in the bottle to stop spilling while navigating through the heaving horde. In terms of British ales though it rates pretty far down the scale. You need to get your arses over here to a Real Ale festival. - Mark H

@mark also, because a bottle of dog is one of those protected produces (think champaign), it shouldn't legally be called Newcastle Brown Ale... they moved the brewery to Gateshead! - alphaxion

Mark, they sell more of that mediocre stuff in the US than they do in the UK. - Christopher A Carr

Rootbeer - RAPatton from iPhone

Wonder if we should do a "what brew are you drinking right now" meme... for me, it's a bottle of budvar.. with some super bok in the fridge :) - alphaxion

The best beer I have ever tasted was made in a Monastery high up on a mountain in BadKitzegen However I am partial to Hefe, Dunkel,. & some pilsner... I was stationed in Wurzberg back in 87... I learned to LOVE beer the right way lol. - The Catz Meow

@catz I had some Hefe last year when I was in Paris.. nice, fruity pale ale :) - alphaxion

Wish I had one of these in the fridge: http://www.rogue.com/beers... I like beer. Fortunately for me, I live in the originating region of N. America's craft brew renessaince. - Christopher A Carr

Oh I love rogue.... especially their flat tire, and deadman... I lived in Newport Or for a year!!! LOVE those IPA's - The Catz Meow

Yeah, Rogue is the shit, as they say. - Christopher A Carr

Oh yes and i am absolutely with Mark *cheers* - Warsteiner, Wernesgruner, Radeberger and Czechvar - oops, we should have a FF beer party sooon haha :D - Ronald

Will it be correct saying that Brits prefer dark beers while Americans go with the bright ones? - Nir Ben Yona

nope, lager is the biggest selling (it's seen as the session beer of choice). But, there is still a strong market for milds, stouts and bitters. - alphaxion

Nir, very much depends on where you are in the States. Americans have rediscovered big, hoppy ales. - Christopher A Carr

Eichigo, Kirin, Four Peaks' AZ Peach, Sapporo - Lindsay

Oregon has become sort of the beer capital of the US: http://www.portlandbeer.org/beer... - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: thought Nashville is the one... - Nir Ben Yona

I'm kinda Jones-ing for Portland, Christopher. Thinking of making a trip up there soon. - Derrick

Nir: Nope. "Since the beginning of Portland's microbrewing movement, Oregon has been known as the epicenter of America's micro brewing renaissance.[citation needed] In 2008, Portland had 30 microbreweries located within the city limits, more than any city in the world and greater than one-third of the state total.[2] With 46 microbrew outlets, Portland has more breweries and brewpubs per capita than any other city in the United States..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Christopher A Carr

After dropping Mississippi from my list of potential visit spots in the US after a recent thread bemoaning how dull it was, it looks like I might be replacing it with Portland now. - Mark H

Derrick: Weather is lovely this time of year, but I take it you've spent some time here? - Christopher A Carr

But Beware Oregon has one of the most strictest DUI Penalties...Tending bar there I saw it happen all too often. - The Catz Meow

Christoper: So I guess Milwaukee is history, in terms of Beer capital. - Nir Ben Yona

Nir: Depends on how you define it, but Portland certainly has more breweries and many more beer aficionados and such. - Christopher A Carr

So, yeah, everyone come visit Portland, and spend money! http://thelearnersguild.files.... (pic) - Christopher A Carr

Mythos! the great Greek Lager - Demetrios the Traveller

Christopher: Nice view. I guess you live there, don't you? - Nir Ben Yona

I'm glad the British penchant for alcohol (I swear it must make up a portion of our genetic material by now!) helped rescue the US from the blandness of your bigger breweries. :) - alphaxion

Yep. Come to the Oregon Brewer's Festival: http://www.oregonbrewfest.com/ - Christopher A Carr

The only thing I drank while in Greece was Ouzo and they drank it like tea! (I have family on Crete and Corfu) :) - The Catz Meow

Yeah, we couldn't drink that piss forever, alphaxion. - Christopher A Carr

ouzo is good next time add few drops to yr beer ...;-) - Demetrios the Traveller

alphaxion: watching you guys drinking before during and after a soccer match is quite overwhelming experience :) - Nir Ben Yona

lol I know ouzo is good sweety... I still drink it strained over ice. - The Catz Meow

something I'd recommend everyone attend at least once in their life - a real oktoberfest beer festival in either Germany or Belgium. - alphaxion

@nir you should watch the rugby and cricket fans then! Cricket is nothing more than an excuse for a several day long binge. It scares me to my core! - alphaxion

Oktoberfest in Munich... THE BEST EXPERIENCE I EVER HAD....!!! - The Catz Meow

just been in Oktoberfest two years ago :)) - Gilad Steinberger

Here's a list of some of the beers on tap at the Oregon Brewer's Festival: *edit* I'll just link to it... http://www.oregonbrewfest.com/beers... - Christopher A Carr

this year Oktoberfest? Yes, as always *livin' in Bavaria* :)) - Ronald

the beers that i love the most - http://translate.google.com/transla... - Gilad Steinberger

Kilkenny and Kwak (Kwak is a Belgian beer which should be drink with a special glass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...) - Olivier

I attended one in Oostende, Belgium.. great fun, an elderly guy in our group was thought dead by the hotel staff (he was comatose from too much alcohol) and my dad was woken up to attend to it... the old guy scared the staff by answering his door. - alphaxion

Christopher: I haven't but Portland is one of those cities on my short list that I love to consider in relocation. They have weather that I like, a vibrant food scene, a nice art situation, great public transportation and they treat their gays and lesbians well. All stuff that matters to me. Thinking early September. - Derrick

Gilad: I was celebrating the Oktoberfest with some embassy people here. I guess it's not the same as going abroad but it was a lot of fun, and women started chasing the men and cut their ties. - Nir Ben Yona

So many good ones (though I'm not a big beer drinker). Most of my favorites are from Belgium, I'm very partial to British Stouts - Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout is a favorite. One that I just found from a microbrewery in Michigan, Bell's Two Hearted Ale is a wonderful smooth, fruity IPA. Ted Roden, if you like IPA, find this one and check it out. Hmm, thirsty now :) - jcunwired

Oops, that's a difficult question for me, since I'm selling 950 different kind of beers. I can choose for Närke Stormaktens Porter, but I love the 'mixture' of the Belgian Struise Brij & the Dutch Molen Brij, called Black Damnation, too. Than there are totally different German beers like the Keller of Brauerei Hummel in Merkendorf or Schumacher Alt from Düsseldorf. I also love the... more... - Ton Zijp

That's an apt description, Derrick. I think you'll like it here. - Christopher A Carr

alphaxion: I can understand the rugby guys but Cricket? Really? LOL - Nir Ben Yona

Cricket and alcoholic excess were made for each other. - Mark H

Derrick, they also don't have a sales tax there! :) They do have a state lottery, great wine, seafood, and culture within the big cities. There is however a big drug problem there... (not talkin pot either) Their Meth epidemic was pretty bad when I lived there;. - The Catz Meow

Have to admit, I do notice a great similarity in liver abuse between cricket and baseball.. But yeah, cricket is nothing more than a few days of alcohol and feasting with some people attempting to compete in a sport in the background. It makes sense tho, the matches are so damn long, you gotta do *something* to pass the time ;) - alphaxion

I want to go to Oktoberfest in Germany! - ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift

TCM: They made pseudoephedrine prescrition-only in Oregon. Local meth cooking has slowed way down, which has just enriched the Mexican cartels. Meth is everywhere, though...not as bad anywhere in Oregon as, say perhaps, Fresno. - Christopher A Carr

Harpoon IPA! - mikepk

Newcastle, Bass, Guinness, oh and Smithwick's - Chieze Okoye

alphaxion, sounds like Cricket is your Nascar... - Christopher A Carr

Derrick: "..and they treat their gays and lesbians well..." Unless you're the mayor. ;-) Ah well, at least it was possible for him to get elected here. - Christopher A Carr

Beer is probably the most diversified drink ever made, maybe even more than wine. - Nir Ben Yona

OK. I'm thirsty now. - Christopher A Carr

Mac and Jack's African Amber Ale. Only available on tap around Seattle. - Aaron Brethorst

Me too Christopher!! and I still have 45 minutes!!! - The Catz Meow

I've been critical of Mayor Adams, but whatever. I was possible for him to get elected so that says something. The Catz Meow: Why did you leave? Not liking the meth problem so prevalent there in PDX, though. And I want a beer now. - Derrick

The free kind - Outsanity

Not true, Aaron. It's available all over the state of Oregon. - Christopher A Carr

Derrick: Yeah, not saying he hasn't screwed up... - Christopher A Carr

Derrick: I lived on the coast, in a little house right down on the beach, cost me 1000 a month on the backside of the Yaquina Bay Lighthouse. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT. and I am a born and raised So Cal girl! I had to work two jobs Bar tending at night and the Log Yard for GP as a scale master 12 hours a day 5 days a week. Winter hit Newport and the tourists went away, and the Log yard I... more... - The Catz Meow

Thirsty as hell. No beer :( - Nir Ben Yona

Beer is Forbidden in iran, sigh - Amir

Delester :) - Tardid

Delester is a non-alcohol beer, right? - Nir Ben Yona

Delester Is Islamic beer! - Amir

Amir: I assume their are ways to get beer, if you know where to look? - Christopher A Carr

i stopped drinking in any real quantity at the end of the 90s. this has necessitated a whole new group of friends to socialise with. - Joe Silence is not dead

I don't really have a favorite favorite, as they seem to taste different depending on temperature, mood, location, food, etc, etc. I do like many different kinds really, many of them already mentioned. This is a most non-committal comment isn't it? Oh! I got it! Whatever Mark Krinsky likes, I'll go with that. - Adrian

A pint of Guiness always works for me. - Paul from BuddyFeed

Fat Tire. But my tastes vary from day to day. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

Bud Light. Actually it's Guinness or Corona w/lime. - CAJ, somewhere else

Hmm Fat Tire or Dead Mans Ale and free is good to :-) - John D Reasor

My favorite beer to sip on would probably be Stella or Corona, to get my drink on? Coors light baby. - Nicholas Kreidberg

Dos Equis - Alan Simpson

Rogue Double Deadguy Ale, Arrogant Bastard Ale, nearly any "real" Trappist Ale, Rogue Shakespeare Stout, Rogue Santa's Private Reserve - see a pattern here? - William Harryman

hmm William... you must like Rogue! lol I loved living just right down the road from their brewery. - The Catz Meow

I'm always finding new beers I enjoy. I like a nice dark stout, and also enjoy wheat beer. - Will Higgins™

Hoegaarden and Kronenberg 1664 - Patrick Jordan

Fullers ESB; Sierra Nevada Bigfoot; Stone Imperial Russian Stout; Paulaner Original Munich Premium Lager; Barbar; Kasteel... the list goes on. - Ian May

@cacarr one could argue that's around Seattle ;-) I did not know that though, so thanks for the info :) - Aaron Brethorst

St. Bernardus Abt 12 Quadrupel. http://beeradvocate.com/beer... - Zach Landes

Leinenkugel's....any of them. And Shiner Bock, of course...Shiner Black. - Joel Robert Perez

Blue Moon - tomit from iPhone

here are mine: http://friendfeed.com/drinks-... trappistes rochefort 10 is my pick - Carlos Ayala

Le Effe and Mac & Jack - Jeff (the メガマクダジ of FF) from iPhone

My favorite beer is my next one ;) - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

+MVB - exactly! - Adrian

Boddingtons Pub Ale. - Jason Huebel

Very hard for me to answer. I don't really have a single favorite although I prefer Ale's and IPA's. Sierra Nevada is my usual goto beer but I like so many others. - Mark Krynsky

Rogue Dead Guy Ale. - Ben Hanten

...Another vote for Rogue. - Christopher A Carr

A lot of votes for stout flavor. - Nir Ben Yona

I also like good lagers. Trumer Pilsner comes to mind...better than any Japanese lager (many of which I quite like) with Japanese food. - Christopher A Carr

Yeah. Well Stella is a Pilsner so I hear ya ;) - Nir Ben Yona

I don't mind getting drunk on Stella (and I have), but it's not all that noteworthy. - Christopher A Carr

None! *insert shocked gasp here* Though I love walking into a pub and inhaling that beery smell. - Mellissa Claus

Only one? I'll mention a few. Little Creatures Pale Ale, James Squire Pilsener, Redback, Asahi, Pure Blonde. - Bec Rowe @d0tski

Mine is Orval. - Djordje Lukic from iPhone

Guinness - clarke thomas

Perroni - Laurentiu

Beer? HAH. I drink vodka. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

My favorite type...Wheat Beer. I enjoy Yuengling, Guinness, Sam Adams, Fat Tire. - Kreg Steppe

Czechvar, Stella Artois, Pilsner Urquell - andrei_c

Most any IPA. I like that hoppy bitter taste. - Martha

Paulaner Weissenbier - Baard @ Pixum

Hoegaarden witbier - Remo

Newcastle, Brooklyn Brown Ale (when i can find it), Liberty Ale, Guinness Extra Stout, Sam Adams Boston Lager, Beck's Dark, Saranac Black and Tan (I went to school not far from their brewery in Utica) - Mike Nencetti

Shiner Bock (Normal, Bohemian Black, Smokehause), Newcastle, Guiness, Murphy's Irish Ale - Haggis (Sean Loyless)

Efes Pilsen - Dinçer from iPod

http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Karim

Trappist beer is awesome! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Adrian Scicluna

Four Peaks AZ Kiltlifter. That beer taught me what good beer is. - Emilio_M

@The Catz Meow - The first Rogue brewery (I think) was in Ashland, OR, where I went to college - spent a LOT of time there, probably as much time as I did in class :) - William Harryman

Whichever one I'm drinking at the time? - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS

This thread is responsible for me buying a 6 pack of Brooklyn Brown Ale, some of which will be enjoyed later this evening when it has had time to chill... Thank you! - Mike Nencetti

efes - Orçun the Nucro

Think I'll try Newcastle Brown Ale, with so many people liking it. - Nir Ben Yona

Sandels - Nia

Corona - Michael Fidler

Robert Scoble

Wait a second the whole Amazon Kindle thing yesterday was ABOUT STOLEN property! That changes ALL the anti-Amazon arguments. More:

July 18 from iPhone - Comment - Like - Share

Marko Saric, RAD Moose, John Wang and 21 other people liked this

Those books were stolen property. Amazon had every right to delete them. Police will come into your house and take your TV if it was stolen. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

108 more comments

Amazon had no right to sell those books to you in the first place. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

If that's the case, I agree. And if you buy stolen goods, the cops don't refund your money. - Chris Baskind

Interesting to see who was anti-Arrington and anti-Amazon too. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

We sure knee-jerk online, don't we? - Chris Baskind

If you are anti-arrington you must be pro Amazon today. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Chris: yeah. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

About a month ago, I put a 3 x 5 index card on the board behind my computer. It says WAIT. I think it has helped. ;-) - Chris Baskind

The stolen TV analogy only goes so far since it was Amazon that was selling the stolen merchandise in the first place. I wonder how this has affected Kindle sales. - Justin Doub

If a printing company illegally produced copies of your book, you could rightly expect the rights-holder to go after them and even demand that unsold copies be destroyed but they certainly wouldn't demand to burn all copies sold to customers. See my comments here: http://www.torgo.com/blog... - Daniel Appelquist

You guys need to go to law school. If you buy stolen property from a store, you are the rightful owner of the goods. The police won't bother you. - Ward Mundy

Ward: is that true? I always thought that receiving stolen goods would get them taken from you. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

That's not to say Amazon wouldn't be liable for damages to the legitimate copyright holder. Just not the buyer in the ordinary course of business. - Ward Mundy

I disagree. Amazon should have found a way to work it out with the publisher (i.e. write a check). You should NEVER do what Amazon did. Pull it from the store, don't sell any new copies, fine. Don't yank content from a consumer's device. Ever. - Brian Baggett

Amazon is still at fault here, by the way. For selling something it didn't have the legal right to sell. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

We can all agree on that. :-) - Ward Mundy

George Orwell is rolling over in his grave. http://nerdvittles.com - Ward Mundy

Brian: I agree, and it looks like Amazon agrees now too but those arguments have less teeth today. By the way did you argue for or against TechCrunch publishing the stolen Twitter documents? - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Amazon should have communicated to their customers before taking any action. Amazon = Fail - paul mooney

Ward: Orwell has lots of reasons to roll over in his grave. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Paul: agreed. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Paul: I completely agree. Their actions caused uproar that could have been avoided by sending a clear message before preforming the pull. - Joshua

Amen, Big Bro. - Ward Mundy

Seeing the Twitter docs pop up over at Techcrunch felt ... "dirty". Just because you can doesn't mean you should. - Brian Baggett

I was also under the impression that stolen goods are subject to seizure. But I've no interest in law school. ;-) - Chris Baskind

Brian: lots of journalism is done with stolen info. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

It depends upon where you purchased the stolen goods. - Ward Mundy

Ward: even from a second hand store? - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Absolutely Brian, starting to read that I felt as if I were a part of some sort of espionage... I stopped reading. I think I may be done with Arrington/TechCrunch... :( - Trae Ruge

The real root of the anti-Amazon, anti-whoever, sentiment is that we all know copyright is broken and that these books SHOULD be free. - tollie williams

If the store is in the business of selling the type of goods you buy, then you are a buyer in the ordinary course and are protected. - Ward Mundy

Yeah, I realize that. The difference is when it's something like Watergate or exposing massive corporate fraud, that's one thing ... when it's exposing the inner thoughts of a company that's yet to make a dime ... it just seems senseless. Know what I mean? - Brian Baggett

Not to be pedantic, but it's important...it's not stolen property. It's a work under copyright sold w/o a license. There's a difference. "STOLEN PROPERTY" (in caps, no less) means you don't have the property anymore. That isn't the case here. It's still wrong, no question, and Amazon is in the process of working through this. But it's different, and it's complicated. All caps doesn't help. - Ken Kennedy

Robert re:"lots of journalism is done with stolen info." http://kara.allthingsd.com/2009071... - Ian Paul

Robert: Amazon isn't the police; remember the analogy; if Books Inc sold me an illicit copy of 1984, they have no right to come into my house to get it back; they'd have to follow a legal process to do that. - Stuart Liroff

Wouldn't the police need a warrant to come into my house and get the stolen property. I mean they couldn't just break into and then leave. That's what makes Amazon's action so bad, they made no attempt to inform the consumer of what they were doing. After all the consumer didn't know the item was stolen and had no reasonable expectation it was stolen. - Kim Landwehr

Oops...I capped the whole thing "ABOUT STOLEN". Sorry. I'll not edit above, but consider this my oopsie acknowledgement. - Ken Kennedy

Ken Kennedy: Excellent point and that isn't pedantic at all. - Brian Baggett

Ward, if you buy my stolen t.v. I have every right to get it back. Your money is gone and you could face charges for receiving stolen property, depending on the circumstances. - Kimber Scott from BuddyFeed

Ian: Kara is wrong there. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Ken: so if this isn't "stolen property" but content sold without out a license, doesn't that mean it was illegally obtained--at least by Amazon if not the end user? - Ian Paul

The end user asserted to Amazon that they had the rights to publish the work. - Ken Kennedy

I wonder if Amazon will ever start removing books from the kindle that you got from somewhere else, i.e. pirated content. - RobinDotNet

Robin: I doubt that. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

If somone took one of David Pogue's (the NYT writer that one of of the first to write about this), OCR'd it, put it up on Amazon via the Kindle's small authors publishing programs, and sold a couple thousand copies at $0.10 before Pogue figured out what was going on, what do you think he'd want to do? Leave them out there, or make Amazon take them back?? (I'm willing to bet $20 right here on the latter). - Ken Kennedy

Robert: I don't want to go too far off topic here, but why don't you buy the argument that there's a difference between taking company documents in the name of the public good versus a hacker doing a cyber B 'n' E? Wasn't the whole Twitter affair basically a case of prurient (okay, prurient isn't the right word here, but you get my drift) interest for the reading public? - Ian Paul

@Robin. There's no technological way to make sure that you don't have the right to that work. I think Amazon would be crazy to even try. - Ken Kennedy

Scoble: I absolutely believe the content providers won't put pressure on Amazon & Apple eventually to do just that ... - Brian Baggett

Robert i think you're conflating things again, maybe just to be a gadfly or "start a conversation," but you're equating things that aren't equal. Amazon thought they had the right to sell the book -- they didn't not *knowingly and wilfully* violate copyright. morally speaking, that is not the same kind of "crime" as buying something you KNOW is stolen from a self-admitted thief. - Karim

I misspoke. I meant to say "I absolutely believe the content providers will put pressure on Amazon & Apple eventually to do just that" - Brian Baggett

Ian: My public interest is your purient interest. - Robert Scoble from iPhone

Amazon's already said: "“We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers’ devices in these circumstances". Props for that...probably. But what happens when someone scarfs the next "Harry Potter-alike", uploads it with a slightly different name a day before release, sells TENS of thousands of copies before they're caught (because I bet lots of... more... - Ken Kennedy

Amazon made a mistake that had no financial benefit for the receiver of the goods. Arrington received stuff he *knew* was stolen and used it for page views. HUGE moral difference. - Karim

So they only remove content that *they* allow you to put on there illegally? That's good, bec. if Amazon did that, think what Apple could do to people's iPods... - RobinDotNet

Robert: Amazon had the right to _lawfully_ request the 1984 copies to be returned. They didn't have the right to commit a felony by "breaking and entering" in order to retrieve the property: Definition: "Entering can involve either physical entry by a person or the insertion of an instrument with which to remove property. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Stuart Liroff

Robert: maybe I don't see it the same because I am not a journalist, but I am a banker. If your information is stolen and sent to Tech Crunch et al. you would not want to see it posted I would imagine. Perhaps this isn't similar, but posting anything privat be it account balances, personal info, loan committee minutes, business dealings etc. they are all private information... - Trae Ruge

KenKennedy -- they could compare title against copyright availability. - RobinDotNet

I'm still dismayed about the reports that some books can only be downloaded a specific number of times, and that's not documented. Anybody had any problems downloading books repeatedly? (I have 2 kindles, and use iPhone kindle app too). - RobinDotNet

Robert: I think we'd need a new thread to keep this discussion going. I just can't believe that the Twitter info was in the public interest. - Ian Paul

Robin: Why would you want to download books repeatedly anyway? - Ian Paul

@Stuart: C'mon. This wasn't a masked Amazon employee in your bedroom. It's a wireless device that you authorize (and in fact expect them) to move stuff around on. You agree to a lengthy terms at purchase. Amazon can't agree to give you rights to a permanent copy of something that they don't have the rights to give you period. - Ken Kennedy

IanPaul: I might want to download it to multiple kindles. But sometimes I download a book, read it, and remove it, so my list isn't so cluttered, since they don't let you folder them. - RobinDotNet

Robin's comment brings up a good point: http://medialoper.com/hot-top... - Brian Baggett

Isn't it ironic that the books by Orwell were deleted. "He who controls the past, controls the future" is the party slogan of the govt. in 1984. Maybe Amazon thought they could go back and change history too. - Robert

BrianBaggett -- I agree, they should disclose it. I feel like I need to back up the files from my kindle to my PC just in case. Because you CAN copy them off, then copy them back on there, yourself. - RobinDotNet

Oh, the Orwell irony I think is "great" (note the quotes). It's part of what gave this story legs, IMO. - Ken Kennedy

Ken: If the perception is you're buying something from Amazon rather than renting it, then it is unreasonable. Obviously, they just made clear to anyone who wasn't sure that you own nothing on the device; you're just renting. - Brian Baggett

Robin: I see. Can the Kindle sync with your computer or a memory card and you can put them on your hard drive instead? I don't have a Kindle, just interested to hear how it works . - Ian Paul

@Brian @Robert I wholeheartedly agree...back up your files. It's trivial. - Ken Kennedy

Robert -- It would have been ironic if it happened with Fahrenheit 451 !! - RobinDotNet

IanPaul -- you can connect it to your compute and see the files, and just copy them off to your PC or wherever. - RobinDotNet

From my attorney (just a quickie, simplistic answer): "Yes, stolen property is generally subject to seizure. The buyer would have recourse against the vendor." And Ken is right: It's the Orwell angle that gave this story da sexy. - Chris Baskind

They can reclaim stolen property, but they would tell you, they wouldn't just steal it back from you secretly. - RobinDotNet

@Brian The Ars Technica article is good on this: http://arstechnica.com/tech-po... Amazon does consider that you have a permanent license; it's no "rental". But...(and there's always a but in contracts), it can't give you a license to something it doesn't have rights to license! That's what happened. - Ken Kennedy

Whoever said stolen property can't be taken away is wrong. In California, receiving stolen property is punishable by the law and often includes jail time. Even if you didn't know it was stolen and paid for the item. It can and will be taken by the law and held as evidence until a hearing or trial. - Marc Flores

It's NOT stolen property. It's unlicensed property. And the short answer is Amazon should have bought a license for the number of copies they already had sold. - Ward Mundy

If you buy a book from a book store, you have an absolute right to keep the book whether it was originally stolen or not. - Ward Mundy

If you buy a stolen book from somebody on the street corner, you do not have a right to keep the book. - Ward Mundy

Ken, Amazon's License and Terms of Use clearly gives the purchaser the non-exclusive rights to keep a permanent copy of the digital content on your device; nowhere does it give Amazon the right to delete it. http://www.amazon.com/gp... - Stuart Liroff

Why worry about the stolen property statues of 50 states? This isn't a big-screen TV! @Ward, that's not a bad idea (short answer), except a) what if I don't WANT to license my work, for any price. You can't make me. b) after the fact, maybe I am willing to license to Amazon...for $100,000 a pop. - Ken Kennedy

@Stuart: I know, since I quoted that about 2 minutes ago. *grin* But they can't license stuff they don't have a license to license! - Ken Kennedy

"Copies of copyrighted works CANNOT BE REGARDED AS STOLEN PROPERTY for the purposes of a prosecution under a statute criminalizing the interstate transportation of such property." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Karim

You might also search for Buyer in Ordinary Course under UCC which applies in most states. http://bit.ly/49QRid - Ward Mundy

So do those who bought 1984 have the legal standing to launch a class action suit against Amazon? A case that like that could have some serious implications for the future treatment of digital content. - Ian Paul

Depends if you can make a case that the users suffered damage, I would think. - Chris Baskind

I still don't see why Amazon deleted the books from the Kindle. Apple doesn't do the same thing for their apps. Kindle may be okay, but I'm sticking with Stanza on the iPhone for now. - darnell from BuddyFeed

So wait. I unknowingly buy a book from a store that doesn't know it's stolen. The store owner realizes it was stolen, comes to my house, breaks in and takes the book back? Since when does he have the right to do that? The police, probably. The store owner? Definitely not. - shandel from iPhone

What if you bought a car and the maker decided they didn't like how they designed the dashboard. Would it be ok for them to come take your car back that you already paid for? - Bradley Farless from iPhone

shandel, the police can't enter your home to retrieve stolen goods without 1) your permission, or 2) a search warrant issued by a court. So what Amazon did was purely breaking and entering, unless their TOS said they could do so. - Jeff P. Henderson

I think the point is that if it was a real book they couldn't do anything about it. In this case they can. This situation won't be the last since music and dvd's are also going digital - brendaries

You do not own the kindle downloads. Amazon licenses them to you. - russellcoleman

Yes, you own a license to the books. Where is it stated that Amazon has a right to yank your license? - Jeff P. Henderson

@Jeff: That's the point; you own a bogus license...what does that give you? Amazon didn't have a legitimate license. Orwell's estate pointed that out; they had no choice but to stop selling. I imagine Amazon's interpretation of the TOS is that you never had a legitimate license either. They appear to be changing that interpretation now, based on feedback. - Ken Kennedy

Ken, there is something called due process that should have been used in order to right the wrong. Amazon should not have 'broken in' and taken the books back. They should have used the proper legal procedures for doing so if that was their best resolution to the problem. - Jeff P. Henderson

Disagree Scoble. This is not about STOLEN property. This is about censorship and the rights of individuals. This is about TYRANNY pure and simple. - Richard

The Kindle is a nascent, emerging technology (sure e-book readers have been around for years, but like the iPod was to MP3 players, this is to e-books) and Amazon should do everything in their power to not leave a bad taste in consumer's mouths. Period. That 'kill switch' should be for viruses or malicious trojans or something that is really a problem. - Brian Baggett

In a case like this, the publisher should've worked behind the scenes with Amazon to license the books. If the publisher wouldn't budge, Amazon could've had the courtesy to email or post a notice on what the publisher was asking them to do. The widespread ill-will would've shifted from Amazon in a heartbeat. They could've spun this blunder into a PR opportunity if they were smart ("The big bad publisher wants us to delete your content, but we said no ...") - Brian Baggett

@Brian --- It's not any of my (or Amazon's) business why Orwell's estate (or anyone else) does or doesn't want to license electronic distribution. I personally think it's short-sighted for people not to do so, but that doesn't mean I think leaning on them the way you're describing is a good idea. Heck, I'd be MORE pissed w/ Amazon if they sent a letter like that. That's them using mob... more... - Ken Kennedy

@Brian -- there are lots of (academic, for example) works that I'd like to see on the Kindle that aren't there. I unfailingly click the "I'd like to see the on the Kindle" button, and I hope Amazon does something with it. I've even emailed authors and publishers directly. But I DON'T hope that someone rips them off and publishes things illegally, giving Amazon leverage to send "big bad publisher" letters. - Ken Kennedy

The whole debate raises a question about tightly controlled platforms such as the Kindle and iPhone, versus their ancestors that you could load with anything you liked... - Jonathan Beckett

@Ken - Had Amazon *intentionally* sold something it wasn't licensed to sell, sure they should be held accountable. However, a publisher they deal with sold Amazon something that *they* didn't own. That's not Amazon's fault; the ill will should be focused at the publisher who sold it to Amazon rather than Amazon playing copyright-cop. - Brian Baggett

"MobileReference, the publisher in question, formats and sells public domain books on Amazon. The only problem is that George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984 are not yet in the public domain, at least not in the US. According to Amazon's statement to Ars Technica, "These books were added to our catalog using our self-service platform by a third-party who did not have the rights to the books." -- http://bit.ly/Depgj - Brian Baggett

I really think Amazon's learnt a very important lesson today. I guess the kindle marketplace is a nascent one, and a new foray for Amazon into DRM-encumbered file distribution. One would assume this will not happen again. - Bryce Roney from iPod

Do I have to be anti either? - Jesse Stay from iPhone

Robert Scoble 2009: "Wait a second the whole Amazon Kindle thing yesterday was ABOUT STOLEN property! That changes ALL the anti-Amazon arguments." Philip Mauro, 1906: "All talk about dishonesty and theft in this connection from however high a source is the merest claptrap for there exists no property in ideas musical, literary or artistic except as defined by statute." - Loryn Jenkins

Another point: this story has nothing in particular to do w/ the DRM on Kindle files. The "big deal" is the always-on (by default) connection that you don't often think about, since you don't pay monthly for it. WhisperNet is convenient, but that convenience has a downside. File DRM isn't the issue is b/c Amazon can and does sell ebooks w/o DRM; I bought a Kindle copy Mur Lafferty's... more... - Ken Kennedy

DRM isn't exclusive to a file; DRM can be an aspect of the hardware. - Brian Baggett

Valid point, Brian. But the Kindle isn't really DRM'd in a direct hardware sense...it mounts as a drive if you connect it to a USB port, and you can drag off the files. Most people don't, but there's absolutely nothing stopping you. I backup all my purchases (and yes, that includes stripping the encryption; I have unencrypted backups of all my books). If Amazon made it impossible for... more... - Ken Kennedy

@Brian...just saw your earlier comment: "the ill will should be focused at the publisher who sold it to Amazon". I agree 110%; sorry if it seemed otherwise. There's an argument that could be made that the complicated nature of copyright makes this stuff confusing (ie, the fact that these books are in the public domain in Canada, Australia, and Russia already), but that's no excuse. If... more... - Ken Kennedy

Amazon clearly violated federal "computer tampering" laws. See http://cid-c072ace4f752027c.sp... - Brian K. Stanley, Att'y

Gabe

OMG! WTF? BBQ. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...

July 18 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

O.Shane, bob, Michal Cierniak and 8 other people liked this

"Mr Poole, a coach driver from Sowton, said 15 family and friends had come to the event, where they were watched by a police helicopter for about 15 minutes. He said before they had turned on the music, four police cars and a riot van arrived and demanded the barbecue was shut down and everyone leave." - Gabe from Bookmarklet

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This is some scary shit. - Alex Scrivener

omfglolwtfbbq! - k00pa

In 2003 or 2004, I was invited to a rave. The rave was in some pudunk town in the middle of nowhere. It was in the middle of a forest and the driveway to it was about a mile long. At the start of the driveway, there was a sign that said "HAPPY BIRTHDAY so and so" with balloons. I don't believe that the music could have even been heard at the start of the driveway. The cops must have found out about it because there were so many people in their tiny town. Anyway, the cops broke it up and we had to leave - Becca

pics at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news... -- story there adds the police were in camos and body armor. whatever happened to the Monty Pythonesque stereotype of the lone constable striding into an event and asking, "'ello, 'ello, what's all this, then?" :-D - Karim

I love how the cops' defense is that if they had waited longer it would have required more cops to bust up the birthday party if they had waited longer. - Gabe

On a meta level - isn't that an argument against relying on the power of "the Internet" for advertising upcoming public, but potentially "authority-unfriendly" events? I seem to recall at least one such small-scale do called Woodstock that relied on word-of-mouth alone, and, judging from the pictures, they didn't do all that badly. - ianf ⌘

ianf: Woodstock was originally a big failure. Hippies showed up by the thousands hoping to get in free. Advance ticket sales were so poor that the organizers only had enough money to build either a stage or a fence. They ended up with a stage and no way to keep out the freeloading masses. - Gabe

You're missing the point (on purpose? what purpose might that be). They showed up by the thousands without being connected to the Internet. - ianf ⌘

in fact Vint Cerf was at Woodstock and it was there he said that "Man, organizing something like this would be a whole lot easier if there was, I don't know, some kind of universal packet-switched network, that you could tap into from anywhere, it would transcend space and time, it would reach out to the planets, can you dig? I just have to figure out how to get the Department of Defense to pay for it..." Then he started giggling. - Karim

ianf: I'm not sure what you're getting at. Woodstock was a huge production, with ads in the New York Times and Rolling Stone, among other places. As opposed to raves, they had permits and did things mostly by-the-book. - Gabe

Gabe, have you seen the trailer for the new Ang Lee film, "Taking Woodstock?" http://www.filminfocus.com/focusfe... -- it sort of implies a little more of a loosey-goosey setup than "mostly by-the-book." i don't know if it's historically accurate or not... - Karim

Karim: I haven't seen the trailer. I didn't mean to imply that it was well-organized, just that it was all legal. There was such significant local opposition that it seems likely that it couldn't have happened if anything illicit was going on. - Gabe

Mark Trapp

One thing I hate about trying to get my security deposit back is that it's a total crapshoot if I've cleaned enough. Also, I loathe cleaning

July 18 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Caleb Elston, Amber, Random Time Lord, Alix Whitmire and 8 other people liked this

Cleaning has got to be one of the grossest things one can do. The dirt was out of sight and out of mind before! Why do I want to add liquids to it and get all sweaty scrubbing it up? Where's my self-cleaning house, flying car? - Mark Trapp from iPhone

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I hear you. - edythe from iPhone

Ha, add liquids to it. - edythe from iPhone

the dirty little secret of the Roomba robot is that you can spend as much time cleaning it as you would vacuuming :-D -- but that said, coming home to a freshly Roomba'd living space makes you feel like you're living at some indeterminate point in the future, like you should be dropping the keys to your flying car on the table before programming the food synthesizer in the kitchen... ;-) - Karim

The roomba, unfortunately, doesn't do stovetops, ovens, woodwork, sinks, counters, windows, toilets, tubs, or integral calculus. Vacuuming is the easiest of the cleaning chores! - Mark Trapp from iPhone

agreed. perhaps it is pollyannaish of me, but i tend to look at it as, "Well, there's *one* crappy chore i didn't have to do" :-D - Karim

I stick up an ad in my local Craigslist for a local high schooler or college kiddo to come in and clean during my move-out for $20. Sometimes if I know it is a very dirty job, I'll go $40 for two kiddos. Never had a problem with it and it works out well. - Miss Elle

I should've done that, Miss Elle. I am pooped, the inspection is in about a half hour, and I'm not confident that I'll get my entire security deposit back. Seems like a waste of time that could be better spent on FriendFeed. - Mark Trapp

what? no before and after pics?!? - WorldofHiglet

I have before and after pictures, but it's completely up for interpretation what normal wear and tear is: like, all the paint is peeling, and in lots of places, any amount of scrubbing will make the paint chip worse. Also, the carpet is worn, but it's been 3 years. And who knows what else that was missed? I don't think I've ever gotten my entire security deposit back. - Mark Trapp

So....how did it go? - WorldofHiglet

I think God just bitch-slapped me for the use of universal judgements and being pessimistic: I got my entire security deposit back on the spot. I didn't even know it was possible to get a deposit back immediately. In the past I've gotten my deposit back weeks later, with most of it gone. - Mark Trapp

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