Karim › Comments

me actually singing - warts & all - well, actually. no warts, but double chinnage and undereye circles on Vimeo - http://vimeo.com/5028743
me actually singing - warts & all - well, actually. no warts, but double chinnage and undereye circles on Vimeo
"i've wanted to do this for a while. i'm not a good singer, and it's ok. and this is how i look when i'm doing the just-ok singing. this is part of me dealing with all my faces." - edythe from Bookmarklet
I Love it. :) - Parth Awasthi
thank you. ! i was a little afraid it might scare people witless. ;) - edythe
You're great Polly...keep it up. - Mark Krynsky
I'm sorry but were you on fire went you went up the hill? - Brent - Yes I am
So sweet <3 Go girl! - Neya
thank you, mark and nia and jlt-j. brent, the sky is supposed to be on fire, but i forgot and mumbled. :) jlt-j: it's a warron zevon song that Jill Sobule does a beautiful cover of. - edythe
I love this song :D good job! I like your faces - comix aka martha
That made me smile. :) - Ha3rvey (on hiatus)
You have a very nice voice!!! - Ginger Makela Riker
Wow you had me at Warren Zevon. This shy thing is in the past. Waiting for the follow up album. - Russellreno
:) - Rodfather
[applauds] BENNY THE CAB: Hey Roger, what do you call the middle of a song? ROGER RABBIT: Gee, I don't kn -- [sees that he needs to duck] A BRIDGE!!! - Karim
Sing it, girl. ;) - Derrick
so this is what the angels in heaven sound like? you were wonderful. thank you for the preview :-) (I'm optimistic) - robert holiday
you guys are all too nice. really. :) - edythe
Excellent. I think that's what it's called, right? :-D - Pete D
Very pretty! - Anne Bouey
*smile* - Michael W. May
YAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY! *swoons again* - MoTO Boychick Devil
:)) - Alix May
Papa needs this today. G'morning polly. - MoTO Boychick Devil
"bridge"... *grins* - MoTO Boychick Devil
I still love this so much. - Alix May from FFHound!
That's because it is polly and she is awesome. - MoTO Boychick Devil
Indeed. - Alix May
I wish I could like it again :)) - WoH: Professor MOTHRA
I miss those Polly faces! - Derrick
*birthday bump*... One of my most favorite Polly moments ever - MoTO Boychick Devil
Awww. Heh, Barry. If they ever made this into a single, you'd push it into some platinum list. :) ;) this is the only song I have ever sung and made sound reasonably good. - edythe from iPhone
"Bridge..." JUST LIKE JAMES BROWN!... *sigh* - MoTO Boychick Devil
Hee hee, Barry. Now you're just buttering me up like a roll. ;) - edythe from iPhone
Paul Buchheit
How to cure your asthma or hayfever using hookworm - a practical guide - http://www.kuro5hin.org/story...
"This is my personal account of curing my asthma and hayfever by deliberately infesting myself with the intestinal parasite hookworm. It isn't for the faint hearted and for some should not be read while eating. It involves a great deal of research, a trip to Cameroon and a lot of barefoot walking in open air latrines in west Africa. If you have asthma, or know someone who has asthma (or for that matter Crohn's disease, IBD or colitis) and are suffering badly you owe it to yourself to consider this approach. Because although it sounds strange and is repellant it is founded on sound science and it has one other virtue. It worked." - Paul Buchheit from Bookmarklet
This sounds a bit like deliberately contracting malaria to cure your syphilis. - Gabe
Does that work? - Paul Buchheit
Apparently some populations are more likely to have sickle cell anemia because of the mutation that protects them from malaria. - Kevin Fox
I read this article a couple years ago (it's from 2006), and there's an article in the NY Times about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2008... Apparently they've tested it, and it works. - Tanath
Relevant studies here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar... - Tanath
This paper (Asthma and Current Intestinal Parasite Infection Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis): says "hookworm infection was associated with a significantly strong reduction that was directly and significantly related to infection intensity" & "Conclusions: Parasite infections do not in general protect against asthma, but infection with hookworm may reduce the risk of this disease." - Tanath
I suffer from asthma, and I don't think I want worms inside me. - imabonehead
Then I guess you'll have to wait until they figure out how hookworms do the trick, and then turn it into something that can be mass-marketed, which gets tested in clinical trials, and then approved by the FDA, and the prescribed by your doctor... several years from now. - Tanath
The hygiene theory of asthma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... posits that the subsystem of your immune system that takes care of parasites becomes hyperactive, because in urban industrialized settings we no longer get the feedback from environmental exposure, which would normally reign it in. The hyperactivity of this subsystem is what is responsible for allergies and asthma. - Victor Ganata
Victor: I don't think it's quite that simple. The meta-analysis paper notes that in general, parasites don't help with asthma, and some make it worse. Hookworms were the only ones noted to actually help. - Tanath
I'm going to have to study this approach - my oldest son has asthma. - Jannifer @wordsforliving
Tanath, heh, yeah, it's definitely not as simple as that, but that's the gist of the hygiene theory, which has been one of the dominant paradigms when discussing allergic and autoimmune diseases. Meta-analyses always need to be taken with a grain of salt. Ideally, someone would do an adequately powered prospective trial to retest it, but I imagine it'll be difficult to get enough subjects to volunteer to be deliberately infected with parasites. - Victor Ganata
Jess: That would be one way to do it... LOL. I'm sure there's other ways, but if not... could still be worth it. Better to know about the option, anyway. LOL, Cristo! - Tanath
wouldn't it be great to go back in time 60, 70 years and explain that in the 21st Century, infecting yourself with hookworms is considered cutting-edge medicine. also leeches are used in microsurgery and reconstructive surgery. medicinal maggots are used to destroy necrotic tissue. and people pay extra money for food and drink that have been loaded up with gut bacteria (probiotics). also, we believe in bodily humors called "neurotransmitters" :-D - Karim
Cristo, yeah, when you put it that way, the 21st Century looks pretty incomprehensible. :-D "see, Twitter is like the wireless, only everybody sends short messages about what they are eating... no, really, the company is valued in the billions of dollars...." - Karim
I think I'd rather just have hay fever, man. (Well, assuming this works, it's also a shame there isn't some way to create hookworm-filled capsules that could directly deliver the works to the GI tract...) - Andrew C (✔)
Well, if the theory is right, the hookworm has to enter the bloodstream in order to fully activate the cascade of signaling molecules, which the hookworm can't do directly from the gut. I'm thinking that if they figure this out, they'll probably be able to just remove the actual hookworm from the equation, and just manipulate the appropriate molecules and receptors to stimulate certain pathways and inhibit others. - Victor Ganata
Ah. Then I definitely would prefer to just have hay fever and deal with it with the regular allergy medication for now. - Andrew C (✔)
Fighting Allergies by Mimicking Parasitic Worms - http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedi... - Ashish
Mona Nomura
Any female who says she is ok with being a "friend with benefits" is lying to themselves. Stop it, you're worth more.
Bah! FWB is an awesome state of being. - Sparky, lurking
Finally someone is talking the truth. Some straight talk is just what some people need IMHO. Thanks for putting your words down. - David Damore
When it comes down to it, everyone wants to be loved and feel secure. The sooner you figure that out, the sooner you'll be happier. ;) - Mona Nomura
Having had a few of these who were actively dating other people and easily moved on when they found someone they actually wanted to be with, I'm going to have to disagree. Yeah, there is some physical and general some emotional attraction, but it is still possible to separate sex from love. The problem comes when you remain good friends (with benefits) for too long, eventually the wires will get crossed, especially the more you go through together. - xero
There is nothing wrong with actively dating, but just the "friends with benefits" is a load of crap. EVERY female is worth more than a quickie at 3am with no cuddling and day time outings. - Mona Nomura
@Mona: Who says she has to get the quickie, the cuddling, and the daytime outings all from the same person? - Roger Benningfield
...but why can't one just enjoy being loved in the moment? - .LAG liked that
No one, Roger - but clearly that's what she is looking for. :) @.LAG In the moment is great... in the moment, but when the moment extends to longer moments, and longer moments, and even longer moments, it's human nature and a necessity that with love, comes trust, security, friendship, etc., etc. And if those needs aren't met or balanced, the drama ensues LOL - Mona Nomura
Mona, are you saying that a woman is not capable of having a purely sexual urge that needs to be met without a romantic emotional urge attached to it? - xero
Xero - yes. @Anna: But why wouldn't she want more? What was she (or he) doing with the other person in the first place? ;) - Mona Nomura
...Mona, it's that "drama" that keeps relationships interesting...and viable. - .LAG liked that
Oh boy. I have close to zero tolerance for drama, I'm all about stability. Been there, done that, no thanks! Perhaps that's where we differ. ;) - Mona Nomura
I loathe drama. Completely. - Jonathan Hardesty
"more" is unattainable. - Anthony Citrano
I think you may be projecting then Mona, considering this huge sexual revolution that women have been on for years, and my past experience, past friends, and psychological studies -- I'm going to fully disagree. It has been suggested that there is a genetic component to the women who can not separate the two feelings, but the studies I've seen have all shown overwhelming evidence that... more... - xero
Ack, drama. I have a 20ft no drama radius. I suggest everyone acquire one. ;) - xero
Xero - That's what I've been saying, you just worded it differently LOL. And I agree with the drama. Been there, done that, no thanks. ;) - Mona Nomura
Mona, your comments sound more like a fuckbud than friends with benefits. Real FWB are friends more than anything else. - Sparky, lurking
So what happens when one wants more than the other? Or starts to get attached? It's human nature, the longer you spend time with the person, you want to have something tangible and solid. As a female, if we set the tone with "friends with benefits", that's how the man will only see you as: "friends with benefits" or you'd end up as last resort. :( - Mona Nomura
But it's not that it's not possible, it's just that people put themselves into those relationships without setting down ground rules, either personal ones or consensual ones. Then things change over time sometimes, maybe they get to know each other better, etc. Sometimes one of the people actually wants to be romantically involved with the other and they accept the other arrangement as a way to bide their time. Those situations will NEVER work out. - xero
Honesty is always the best policy. And most of the time, people are not honest with themselves and or each other -- that's when things (feelings) get imbalanced and one party ends up getting hurt, mainly the female, more often times than not. - Mona Nomura
Agreed, Mona. It's usually one person who gets more attached than the other, or there's some kind of failure to communicate that happens somewhere along the way. For all my talk, I'd probably get too attached the fastest. :P - Jonathan Hardesty
You're not the only one, Jonathan! ;) - Mona Nomura
Heh. For all my "walls," I am kind of easy like that. Hence the need to create walls. :P - Jonathan Hardesty
I want a friend with benefits. Waaaah! - vimoh
what? - Pokai
Nobody ever actually *wants* a friend with benefits, those occur when you're in a situation in which something is preventing you from having a continued relationship. Most people actually just want someone they can booty call as needed, a "fuck buddy" if you will. You have to remember that a FWB situation only generally occurs naturally if two existing friends decide that the other "will do" for getting out sexual frustration. - xero
Like I said, the idea of FWB appeals to me. Right now it's more of a sexual thing than a relationship thing. Now, whether or not that would work or turn into another long-term thing remains to be seen. But there's something to being with someone for however long... - Jonathan Hardesty
Are you sure that you're not looking for a casual relationship (dating with no expectations or long-term plans) instead of FWB? - xero
Could be. I dunno. - Jonathan Hardesty
God I'm so not keeping up with this convo. Mona - if one wants more than the other then you talk about it like adults. People do actuall want friends with benefits - often when I'm single I hook up with close friends who are also single. We don't want relationships from each other beyond our close friendship but hey - why not party with your pants off once in a while? It's all about communication and having fun with your friends. - Sparky, lurking
Sex can be a beautiful act of love between two people. It can also just be sex. Mind blowing, toe curling, swinging from the chandeliers sex. - Sparky, lurking
Why can't you be loved by one person, and FWB with a few others? - Chris Charabaruk
Way to stir up the mob Mona ;) - Tony C (Unrated)
I tried that randomly sleeping around thing. It didn't work out. It's possible I just so happened to only sleep with chicks that wanted to put a ring on it though...LOL - Rahsheen
Personally, or empirically Chris? Personally, it's not whether I can or can't separate sex and love, it's that I don't want to separate sex and love (or perhaps better phrased as "lovingness"). If I'm scromping with someone I'm trusting them with my life and that's not something I take lightly. For me to have that kind of trust of a person, I had to know them well and by the time I know... more... - FFing Enigma
I was just trying to be humorous. That said, some people are better at separating sex and emotions than others... I've met guys where they go hand-in-hand, and I've met girls who could only love one guy, but have no problem sexing up anyone else. - Chris Charabaruk
Really, it's just that some folk don't particularly see these things as having to go together. TBH, I'm one of them. Just the way I am. - Chris Charabaruk
Mona, what you say is true...for Mona. But to impose your standards on others is presumptuous at best and intolerant at worst. Recast your remark substituting for "friends with benefits" the words "lesbian", "bottom", "sex worker", "polyamorous", "mother", "schoolteacher", "single", "childless", "executive", etc., and you'll see that you're denying your sisters the sovereignty to define... more... - Alan Chamberlain
+++Sparky, Chris, tiffany & Roger. - Anika
Mona is right. If you turn yourself into a piece of ass, you're going to wind up with the self-esteem of a piece of ass. In the end, you'll feel insecure, unloved and used. That's just the way life works. People who think they can separate their bodies from their spirits are just fooling themselves. - Dawn
Dawn - if you look at it like that then yes. Having sex doesn't mean you are a piece of ass though. Also: sometimes it's hot to feel used ;) - Sparky, lurking
That's sexist. Why wouldn't you think that a women wouldn't enjoy the same pleasures as a man? Plus, men can be just a "piece of ass" too. - BEX
Women are wired differently than men. Women are psychologically wired to nest with one protective mate. Men are much more capable of having frivolous multiple contacts; they don't have the same pulls on their heart, mind and spirit. Call that sexist if you want to, but I didn't create the biology. - Dawn
Men and woman are biologically different. The sooner we understand why we (males and females) do what we do, life for both parties involved is a lot easier. We (as society) are so hung up on equality, a lot of lines get blurred -- and the sooner we shift mindsets to celebrating (and appreciating!) differences instead of trying to prove we are "just as good or better", the sooner the... more... - Mona Nomura
Alan said exactly what I was thinking. Trying to dictate how or why someone should act sexually, esepecially because of their gender, just ends up frustrating everyone. I hope we're past that as a society. - Andy Bakun
I did it for a while. Sometimes I was happy, many times I was sad, in the end I was pissed off and never spoke to the guy again. I don't really recommend it, but I think it was about all I could do at the time. My options are pretty limited out here in the Midwest. I'm just very fortunate that I finally found my full-blown loving boyfriend after so many years. It took finding the right... more... - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
Kamilah - I am so happy for you :) As for people coming in using words like "dictating" should take a close look at what myself (Dawn, plus a few others) are saying. Otherwise, we are going to keep talking in circles. And sub (jo), I completely disagree with your statement "there is absolutely nothing wrong with women who associate their self esteem with the men or women they sleep... more... - Mona Nomura
Oh most definitely tiffany, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a sexual female. :) sub (jo): self defining self esteem I agree with, but lying to yourselves or delusions is the problem and more often times than not leads to hurt, trauma, and or drama. - Mona Nomura
"any female who says she is okay with FWB is lying to themsevles" sounds like dictating to me. - Andy Bakun
What am I dictating, Andy? I just made a statement. How you react to the statement is not up to me, it's up to you. :) - Mona Nomura
WOMEN HAVE BRAINS, people! We're not just slaves to our hormones and organs in EITHER direction. There's nature, and there's also nurture. This makes for infinite diversity. Saying that all women are the same is just plain irrational. We can come up with our own thoughts that have more influence over our actions and desires than any wiring and that oxytocin stuff. Also, many women AREN'T worth more, because they didn't use their brains to be worth more. - MiniMage
Biological determinism is overrated. Human beings have subverted biological drives for hundreds of thousands of years. Civilization is built on the systematic subversion of these drives. And in any case, there are plenty of examples throughout the animal kingdom where the gender roles don't always go that way. - Victor Ganata
Of course women have brains. But it's also important to understand females tend to react emotionally. Once a female embraces that fact and males understand females are wired differently, things become a lot easier. (For ALL relationships i.e. friendships, colleagues, love, etc.) - Mona Nomura
Who are you to judge what other women think, seriously? What's right for YOU isn't right for all women. Get that straight, and you'll begin to understand. - Jillian York
I think it's important to understand that individual people are wired differently. We're not just all archetypes of our particular gender. A man who believes every man thinks the same is going to be at a disadvantage. I would imagine it's the same for a woman who assumes such things about other women. - Victor Ganata
See? Case in point. Who are YOU Jillian, and why are you so upset with me? - Mona Nomura
Men react emotionally, too. If you haven't seen a guy do a shoutingcussypissy dance in the infield because he let a grounder get past him, or because someone shot him dead in Half-Life, you might have missed something--or you might not. - MiniMage
Mage - of course. I am speaking generally. I know MANY males who are more emotional than females. I am speaking in generalities here. - Mona Nomura
I just found this via someone else's link - you're assuming that women who have the capacity to handle that arrangement are "lying" themselves? I find that utterly judgemental and ridiculous. - Jillian York
"Human beings have subverted biological drives for hundreds of thousands of years." Oh really? Homo sapiens sapiens have only been on earth for 2 of those "hundreds of thousands of years." And "civilization" has only been around a tiny fraction of that. Yes, humans have the power to "subvert biological drives" but doing so always comes at a cost. - Dawn
LOL! Not even worth it! [edit: oh, I suppose that means 2 (100k), not 2 (1000). Phwew! - MiniMage
And Mona, my upset isn't directed solely at you but at the generations of women who've had this idea pushed down their throats by other women. You're perpetuating gender stereotypes. - Jillian York
Jillian - that was a rhetorical question. It doesn't matter who you are, everyone is welcome in my feed. I am going to say the same thing I said to Andy. I just made a statement, how you react to the statement is up to you. :) As for your latter comment, I am copying what I wrote above: "We (as society) are so hung up on equality, a lot of lines get blurred -- and the sooner we shift... more... - Mona Nomura
Who cares? People do what they do. We're animals, right? - Tyler Hurst
Jillian, once you get to my age, you'll understand that "women who have the capacity to handle that arrangement" are their own harshest judges as they look back and think "What the hell was I doing?!" I've talked to countless women who see later in life the damage they inflicted on themselves. - Dawn
Mona, if you believe in those differences, then you should also believe in the differences between groups of women. I accept and believe that for you - and many, many other women - a "friends with benefits" situation makes you feel less worthy. For other women - myself included at certain times in life - it makes me feel empowered and complete. You and I fundamentally agree that men and women are different, but I also agree that not all women are created equal. - Jillian York
Oh Dawn, come off it. I'm in the best relationship of my life, and committed - but I would never for a second regret the encounters I've had. Monogamy is not right for everyone; just because you've come to see that later in life doesn't mean that I will feel the same way. I'm sorry for your regrets - I have none. - Jillian York
I'm willing to admit that the percentage off women who can handle FWB may well be lower than the percentage of men who can. However, I just can't let anyone say a woman can't do it. People used to claim that women couldn't be mass-murderers and that men couldn't be nurturing. Nature has examples of males who are wired for one mate for life, and probably has an example of profligate females. We are too complex to pigeonhole. - MiniMage
I agree, MiniMage - I don't doubt that the experiences of those women are true. But I also know countless women my mother's age who remain uncommitted, or who found marriage to be their worst mistake (just like I did). These same people who are coming to accept the differences between men and women should accept the differences between WOMEN. - Jillian York
I don't have any regrets. And being "friends with benefits" is not the same thing as having had one sexual partner your whole life. - Dawn
My stance on monogamy has been changing lately. At this point in my life, I'm not entirely sure I want to "love" just one person, or even have something long term and exclusive. Just thought I would throw that out there. I think that there are women out there who could do FWB, but I haven't met them. - Jonathan Hardesty
I will say though, I haven't met a lot of people, so take that how you will. :P - Jonathan Hardesty
Dawn, not sure I understood that last part or how it pertains to me. - Jillian York
You're confusing what monogamy is. It means having one sexual partner for a period of time. People can be FWB and be monogamous. And when you say, "Monogamy is not right for everybody," and also say you're in a "committed" relationship, your statements are in conflict. - Dawn
"These same people who are coming to accept the differences between men and women should accept the differences between WOMEN." Jillian nails it! Women aren't the same. Look, the "women are made differently" argument is old & tired. It's been used to force women into marriages they didn't want, deny women the right to vote, get an education or own property, and keep girls out of football, baseball and other opportunities. Seriously, I'd like to see that dropped. Women can bear young. Men can't. I get it. - MiniMage
Mage, Women ARE made differently and we are in 2009. I respect the fight and the paths past women (and males) fought to get us to where we are. That said, I still deal with racism and sexism almost everyday -- actually, depending on how I look at it, life could've been horrible for me. I am Asian. I am female. But even if I am called China-girl in 2009, even if I am female, even if I am... more... - Mona Nomura
The problem I have is the implicit devaluation of other people's experiences. How can you assume how much someone values a certain situation without knowing them very well? - Victor Ganata
Mona, you have said that you don't believe in luck. You believe each person determines his or her own fate. However, you don't believe a woman can decide that she doesn't want more than to have a friend with benefits? How do you reconcile this? - MiniMage
Dawn, I know what friends with benefits means. I've done it, and it worked for me at that point of time in my life. Being committed NOW doesn't conflict with the belief that monogamy isn't always right. We change and develop our entire life, and my philosophy is to go with what feels right at the time and live without regrets. I'm committed now because, for the first time ever in my life, it feels like the right choice. I've also been married, and that felt like the wrong choice. - Jillian York
Victor - Can you put it more simply? I don't understand what you are trying to ask me. @Mage: It's because a lot of females try to live up to the anti-societal stereotypes. Like I keep saying, we are in 2009. Not 1950. - Mona Nomura
Mona, when you render a judgment like that, you're de-valuing people's experiences. My question is, how do you know what a particular experience is worth to another person, without actually knowing the person? - Victor Ganata
Mona, again, that's your opinion, and like Victor said, you're de-valuing people's experiences. Yes, there are women who do certain things to stick it to the man; there are also many women who do what feels right to them. By placing your assumptions on all of us, you're no better than the rest. - Jillian York
Ok. If you say so. We are just talking in circles. But I still stand by my statement and excusing certain behaviors by assigning whatever reasoning only gives justification for people to not re-examine themselves and why they do the certain things they do. :) - Mona Nomura
Hopefully, people can at least understand that Jillian's "do whatever feels good at the time" sexual philosophy creates instability that is very harmful to children, which explains why there have been societal pressures against it. - Dawn
Circles is right. I will have to give up. As for me, I will try to allow each his or her own personhood and right to determine for himself or herself what makes him/her happy, no matter what year it is, no matter what chromosomes he/she was born with. Why? Because no one can truly understand every human mind, and how each one is shaped by his/her experiences. - MiniMage
I'd also be careful about being too categoric about what is "very harmful to children", because a lot less is harmful to children than one thinks (it might not be "very good" but its not harmful) except direct and indirect abuse. And a happy, balanced etc. parent is far better than anything else - Iphigenie
Mona writes: "We (as society) are so hung up on equality". Ah, would that that were true, alas. The fight for marriage equality continues, for example, and a great many in our society are vehemently opposed to it. Until we (as society) are able to tolerate diversity, not simply of gender or race, but of experience, philosophy, sexual response, and beliefs, we should continue to be "hung... more... - Alan Chamberlain
As long as we recognize that it's a judgment call and not an empiric truth, I guess we'll have to leave it at that. - Victor Ganata
i am sure it was prompted by a real life situation, probably watching a friend in a hurtful situation - and in that context it probably makes a lot of sense. If it affects your perceived value of yourself, then goodness! never do it, whatever it is - Iphigenie
Oh of course, I stand by all my girlfriends who get into the FWB (for whatever reason they choose to) and am there when they need a shoulder, Mage. :) @Alan - You're not understanding me, and that is ok. It's not about "tolerating" or "equality". It's about understanding and celebrating the differences. Word connotations automatically lead to offense and defense, which is why there are so many issues that aren't resolute. @Victor - it is the truth. - Mona Nomura
What is the litmus test for something being a judgment call vs an empirical truth? because that test itself is a judgment call - I know this empirically. - Micah
Give me some evidence! n = 1 is a sucky sample size, n =2 only marginally less sucky ;) - Victor Ganata
doesnt it all boil down to expectations? If the girl or guy says they are OK but actually hope for more, then it will be painful sooner or later, and it will affect self esteem, Mona is right about that. If they have no expectations or wish to be more, and just enjoy intimacy now and then, but clearly think of each other as just friends with no expectations, then it can work. The ones I know who do are transient (a couple times then no more) or occcasional (every few months, not more often). - Iphigenie
I can agree with that. Anyone who thinks FWB is a stable situation that can last indefinitely is going to be disappointed eventually. - Victor Ganata
Well Dawn, maybe that's true and maybe it isn't - but I don't WANT children, so that's quite irrelevant. Also, I am with Victor in that FWB is not a lasting situation - but it is one that some women can enjoy emotionally unscathed and perhaps even better for having. - Jillian York
I'm out too, but thank you Mona, for inspiring a blog post! - Jillian York
I have a hard time believing that even men want FWB perpetually (well, except for maybe on FFer), but who actually says that's all they'll ever want? Some men or women could be fine with it for a year or two, or a decade or two. We all have the ability to change our minds, and it doesn't make our previous experiences any less invalid. Yeah, that doggoned little toast-thingy that keeps popping up the conversations dragged me back. I'm really incapable of letting it go. - MiniMage
Hopefully, this thread would be helpful to people reading and understanding all takes to making a choice that is right for them. :) I'm all about self growth, re-examination, and learning from other people! - Mona Nomura
i seriously doubt there's ever been a guy version of this conversation -- "Any male who says he is bothered by being a 'friend with benefits' is lying to himself" -- possibly because most guys would agree. :-D while there are always individual differences, *generally* speaking, men and women are wired differently on this point. this difference was summed up by Woody Allen in "Love & Death." SONJA: Sex without love is an empty experience. BORIS: But as empty experiences go, it's one of the best. - Karim
thus this conversation has always gone. which leads me to believe that biological determinism, in this case, is *underrated* not *overrated* :-D - Karim
Karim, I doubt there's ever been a guy version of "women don't have souls," or "women are too delicate for discussions about politics," or "women do not have the mental capacities for education," or "women shouldn't own property," or "women should stay in the home and serve their men." Thus, your argument is meaningless to me. - MiniMage
Mini, not sure i understand your point. is it that "women don't have souls" and "it's ok to be promiscuous" are both *cultural* differences and not biologically-driven? maybe just my ignorance, but i'm just not aware of any cultures in which promiscuity was acceptable for women but shameful for men. even if there was one, it seems like the number of male-promiscuous cultures outnumber the ones that aren't to the point it suggests biology is the culprit. - Karim
tiffany, i guess i'd agree. my point is that you rarely see guys emotionally conflicted about FWB or promiscuity *as soon as* or *as often as* you see women conflicted about it -- not that men are *never* conflicted about it, nor that women *never* are in the mood for what Erica Jong called a "zipless fuck" in the 1970s :-D - Karim
I agree - orionstarr
Mona, I read your statement, disagreed with it, and then read the comments. Wow, FFers, pretty good job on a sensitive topic. But I don't get it when you deny being judgmental. "I stand by all my girlfriends who get into the FWB (for whatever reason they choose to) and am there when they need a shoulder." Except how could it be safe for one of your friends to come to you? After you've... more... - Daniel Dulitz
It's easier to give people what they want from me, when I understand where they are coming from. Because I know (or made up my mind to) what I know, my friends do not need me to disrupt their peace of minds and or screw with their reasonings behind their actions. I also have nothing to prove to myself or to them so I do not even attempt changing their minds, hence it helps me become a better friend to them. :) And Karim - I always appreciate your thoughtful, witty, and very wise comments. :) - Mona Nomura
Karim, what I'm saying is that people have used "women are different" for thousands of years to deny women this or that. It's just more of the same to claim that no woman can be happy with FWB, just because she's got an innie. - MiniMage
tiffany, I think you've pointed at the reason for the disagreement here: Surely there is some level of mutual affection and respect between romantic love on one extreme, and, on the other extreme, using someone else as a Kleenex to masturbate into. - Mitch Wagner
+1 MiniMage, Tiffany, and Mitch. - Anthony Citrano
wow 124 comments later and still no agreement :O now thats a shocker - Tony C (Unrated)
LOL Who said men that are promiscuous aren't viewed that way, too. Personally I never go after "players" because more often times then not, they are making up for something they are lacking and I am way out of their leagues. ;) And you guys talk as though we are in 1950 and not 2008. I respect, remember, and grateful of the history, but am not stuck in those times. - Mona Nomura
Mona *blush* thanks... :-D Mini, well, i'm not trying to deny women anything, i'm not even making a value judgement about whether men or women are "right" -- just saying that when you have this huge discrepancy in sexual attitudes that seems to transcend time and culture, the cause *might* be biological not cultural. just because people have used differences (real & imagined) to repress women doesn't mean the (real) differences don't exist or that pointing them out is tantamount to repression. :-D - Karim
Repression might not even be the point, or it might be repression, "Sorry, honey, you can't feel the way you believe you feel, because you're a woman. Whatever you believe about yourself is wrong." Yeah, that might actually be repression. I believe that FWB cannot work for most of us (talking both genders) most of the time, but I would not be so presumptious as to assume it is impossible for any subset of the population for at least a little while. Why the heck do I keep coming back to this? - MiniMage
I guess the assumption I have a problem with is the notion that biologically-driven is necessarily better. If we stuck to biological drives and didn't act on our higher functions, we wouldn't have civilization. - Victor Ganata
Because you feel so strongly and passionately about it, and I respect that Mage :) @Victor - yes, but take a look at civilization and the various tiers (for the lack of better term) of society and its people. What makes one "better" or "worse"? What makes one believe they are "better" or "worse". Ugh - this is a direction I do not want to go LOL - Mona Nomura
Victor, my assumption is *not* that biologically-driven differences are "better" than culturally-driven ones. in fact the culturally-driven ones are better because they are software, not hardware: a culture can revise or drop a belief that doesn't work. whereas if your hormones tend to make you believe something, that's *hardwired* into the culture. sure, a few enlightened souls might see past their programming :-D but that doesn't always get passed on to the next generation. - Karim
i guess i'm thinking of all the stuff i've read about how complex behaviors later in life -- like whether you're aggressive, or passive, whether you like to build forts or play with dolls, etc. -- is very often influenced by minuscule hormonal changes in the womb. while i'm willing to consider an argument that attitudes about promiscuity and FWB are culturally-generated, it seems more... more... - Karim
Mini, *my* point certainly isn't to repress anyone. don't want to be an apologist for Mona since she is more than capable of speaking for herself :-D - Karim
More than that, it's an oversimplification of biology to believe that just because you have two X chromosomes, you're going to behave a certain way. I could agree with "some", maybe even "most", but certainly not "all". Not everyone has the same hormones coursing through their blood at the same concentrations, and not all of them will respond to the hormones in the same way anyway. Any statement you make about an entire gender is not going to be true for 100% of the cases. - Victor Ganata
Victor, i agree with that. i've tried to qualify things by using phrases like "very often" so it's clear i'm not talking about something being true for 100% of anything. once you've spent some time looking up aneuploidy ("yikes! you can have *five* X chromosomes???") it's clear there is wonderful variation in sexual biology. - Karim
i guess i'm thinking that if women's feelings about FWB and promiscuity are *cultural*, then the men are not getting the same cultural programming. either our culture should instruct men to be just as monogamous and prudent sexually as women, or instruct women to be just as sexually profligate as men. granted there'd be a few people who won't get with the program, but you could probably eliminate most of the cultural difference and most of the age-old argument. - Karim
Karim, yeah, other than the fact that many (but not all) genotypic women can give birth while all genotypic men can't, there really isn't any other behavior that can be exclusively attributed to either gender. - Victor Ganata
if it's *not* cultural -- if being more prudent than promiscuous just comes along for the ride as part of the biological machinery of being a woman -- then there's no end to the difference, really... Sonja & Boris have the same conversation forever ;-) - Karim
Victor, yeah there's no behavior that can be *exclusively* attributed (as in 100%) to either gender, though you really don't need to get to 100% to say that IN GENERAL, girls like doing certain things that boys don't and vice versa. that is common sense. the question for me is whether you looking at cultural differences (that can be changed), or biological differences (that are hard-wired). - Karim
Karim, true, but then we get to the question of whether such a difference is biologically-driven or whether it's a social construct. This question will probably never be answered, but I'm just always wary of blanket statements that preclude the possibility of individual variation. - Victor Ganata
And THAT, Karim, is all I'm saying. One simply cannot truthfully say that 100% of women can't do FWB happily. I'm not saying it can't be true of 51-99%. And personally, I think that if there is a disparity between the percentages of men who can and women who can, it's a societal construct. Thousands of years of women being told that they can not behave the way men do has continued to be extremely effective, I believe. - MiniMage
The point is: make blanket statements and let people answer if they are or are not the exception. If you keep adding "but"s and "and"s, it gives people excuses to pinpoint blame elsewhere, instead of looking at themselves first. If you know you are the exception, why do you need to prove it? - Mona Nomura
Victor, i think you can address the question. it's hard but not impossible to find evidence of biological programming. you could possibly survey people with a sex-linked monosomy or triosomy, or people who had hormonal exposure in utero for their attitudes on FWB and promiscuity. or survey general population attitudes by level of hormone. much more easily, social scientists should be able to find evidence of cultural effects on attitudes toward promiscuity, if they exist. - Karim
Mage - I'm still really curious as to why you keep talking about repression and societal constructs of males and females. Karim already said he is not and I have stated numerous times I have not. I wish people would examine themselves, their situations, themselves, as well as biological factors to determine what is right for THEM. - Mona Nomura
the sad thing is that after years of research, the results would be published in the newspaper as "Women have greater negative attitude to promiscuity than men," and everyone would go "DUH! Why is Science always telling us things we already know?" lol - Karim
Hahahhahahhahahahaha!! +++++++++++++++ Karim! - Mona Nomura
I know at least 3 guys who were FWB with women, and wanted to actually have a real relationship with them, and the girl reminded them that, no, they agreed to just being FWB. Hanging out was fun, sex is great...but didn't want to move into "official' relationship territory. Are the guys also worth more than that? - Andru Edwards
Dru - that is a question they need to answer themselves. ;) - Mona Nomura
Mona, I missed the part where you said it was possible that some females exist who could possibly do the FWB thing quite happily for a while. I seem to have a really serious reading retention problem today. - MiniMage
It's somewhere in this thread or one of the other ones... this was a hot topic last night LOL - Mona Nomura
How come the guys have to answer it for themselves, but the women are all, by default, worth more than that?? :P - Andru Edwards
Dru LOL Because females are better than males, of course! KIDDING, FOLKS! - Mona Nomura
Andru, it's a good question! The cliche in pop culture is that it's almost always the woman who sobs to her friends about feeling like a piece of meat, who is left behind when she wants to cuddle, who insists on getting married, etc. and the guy who has the post-coital need to abruptly leave, etc. etc. it's almost certain that those cliched roles are reversed some of the time, and that it's sometimes a *guy* who might need to realize that he's "worth more than that." but i don't know how often. - Karim
Of course it goes both ways. But more often times than not, it is harder for females to... hold on, I already covered this. Need to go look for my comment so I can just copy and paste. - Mona Nomura
the one example of a male in pop culture along similar lines is "Alfie," where the protagonist is a promiscuous male. he slowly comes to realize he should have picked one and settled down. - Karim
No. It's about different methods we communicate. Most of the time, females cling because they really like the guy, thought there was something more (for one reason or another), and is hurt and or angry. And guys, more often times than not, give lame excuses like: "You deserve someone better." Stop that. That just gives false hope. If you tell her straight up: "I am sorry I hurt you, but... more... - Mona Nomura
Sorry but this sounds a lot like Hollywood crap and/or high school garbage. You see all the time in movies and TV shows, but it is really running that rampant? Those three guys I mentioned, that happened we were in our very late teens/early 20s, very immature age. Does this really happen a lot past, say, 21?! - Andru Edwards
YES. - Mona Nomura from IM
Mini, sorry, just seeing your last comment. I am certainly willing to consider any evidence that the difference between male and female promiscuity is cultural if you care to offer any :-) - Karim
fanofnomuristic - pb:
Karim, when I was in college, certain athletes would get together every semester and post a "freak list." It was a horrible thing for a female to be listed there. If a young woman'd had her way with a bunch of them, she made the list. Guys did not make the list. For the most part, this public shaming was not done to, uh, GENEROUS guys. You can't blame this on physiology. The message was... more... - MiniMage
Mage - I don't think that is culture, but more defense physiology or basically defense mechanisms when people feel threatened. - Mona Nomura from IM
Mini, that's interesting! though i'm not quite letting go of the biological theory yet. i'm guessing you had an idea that promiscuity was bad *prior* to being shown the "freak list" and i'm wondering how/when it develops. does mom give you the "boys only want one thing" talk? do you get the idea from your friends? are you just born knowing it's wrong? stupid men want to know. :-D - Karim
All I'm asking is why is the normative situation considered superior to the non-normative situation? Why does being outside of the norm require assigning blame or rueful self-examination? It just seems like we're trying to take what is clearly a culturally constructed moral situation, and using vague claims of science to try to pretend that it's completely universal. - Victor Ganata
"clearly a culturally constructed moral situation" <--??? LOL Uh, no. - Mona Nomura
I am just asking questions that are way below the surface. Why are you so upset Neal? - Mona Nomura
Absolutes just don't work for me in most cases. For some women, FWB is a door mat type of scenario - for others, it might actually be their cup of tea. The spectrum of sexual preference is nearly infinite. - AJ Kohn
No, it's ok Neal. I see where you are coming from and I am sorry I offended you. I said this up top, but I am going to paste it again: "The point is: make blanket statements and let people answer if they are or are not the exception. If you keep adding "but"s and "and"s, it gives people excuses to pinpoint blame elsewhere, instead of looking at themselves first. If you know you are the exception, why do you need to prove it? - You (edit | delete)" - Mona Nomura
And to add: "We (as society) are so hung up on equality, a lot of lines get blurred -- and the sooner we shift mindsets to celebrating (and appreciating!) differences instead of trying to prove we are "just as good or better", the sooner the lines will become invisible. This applies to other issues, too. i.e. race, culture, class, etc." - Mona Nomura
How about this? When I was 8, I was convinced by older kids that it was acceptable to indulge in some "show & tell" with another. The boy wasn't punished by his parents, but I was severely punished & made to feel like a rotten child ( mother was CRYING). Think this had to leave a lasting impression? Why didn't my chromosomes teach me that this wasn't right in the first place? I believe it's because it's a society thing based on early man's decision to make sure he had control of whose heirs his mate bore. - MiniMage
Mage - I am sorry nobody was there to protect and watch out for you. :( - Mona Nomura
Thanks, Mona, but I've experienced worse and lived through it. :) The important thing is to note that I wasn't the first, nor will I be the last. We must not dismiss the ramifications of parents' having locked up their girls for thousands of years while letting the boys run wild. There might be a nature component to it, but I am betting on nurture. - MiniMage
Oh, and yes, Karim, I absolutely did get the "Don't let some little boy get you off into a corner," talk from my mother and the "Boys will bring you down," talk from my father. - MiniMage
I agree with nurture. I finally came to terms with the fact my parents were not around and I learned a lot of stuff the hard way -- experience, and watching those around me. That is why when someone said up there (I think it was Daniel?) that since I Tweeted the above statement, I must be a terrible, judgmental friend. But because of what I have been through, I am exactly the opposite;... more... - Mona Nomura
Mini, Neal -- thanks, those anecdotes are definitely ammo for the cultural difference camp. i'll have to think about this a bit more. roughly 5 years old to puberty is the "latency period" in psychoanalytic theory; i didn't think parents would instill any instruction on promiscuity during this *asexual* period. i certainly never got any, but i'm a boy so what do i know. lol thanks for the (scary, traumatic) peek into the mind of an 8 year old girl. :-D - Karim
@Mona .. what have you been through? - pb:
LOL I have seen anything and everything from top to bottom. And Mage, Neal, I too, thank you both for sharing your experiences. :) - Mona Nomura
I have no idea what to say now, so forgive me for not saying much other than I am delighted to have so many fluff-less discussions on FriendFeed. I try to operate on the principle that every experience must shape me, and that I must determine how. - MiniMage
That's why I love FriendFeed (in particular) so much. We are able to openly exchange our experiences and thoughts and though we may disagree, at least we still respect each other. That's the kind of friendships I have in real life too, so I am usually weary (or terrified) of other social platforms LOL - Mona Nomura
@Mona :] ... but have you seen the yellow elephant?? .....// and, from what you seen, what did you like the best? - pb:
I'm interested in the exchange between Neal ("same language as every other kind of bigot") and Mona ("just asking questions that are way below the surface"). Mona, I felt angry because the typical mode of sexual moralism is to tell people that they're lying to themselves. When I was a child, trusted people told me that I was lying to myself about a lot of things and I believed them,... more... - Daniel Dulitz
+1 Daniel - Chris Charabaruk
+1000 Mona. - Valley
Without determining whether it is cultural or ingrained, and qualifying that this is far from universal, a man avoids commitment because he thinks he might be able to do better, while a woman seeks commitment because she thinks he may be right. :-) This has been an interesting discussion, and I'm not persuaded that we've really solved anything. Those who think women who are ok with FWB... more... - Alan Chamberlain
all i found was a pull quote from Kinsey, "There seems to be no question but that the human male would be promiscuous in his choice of sexual partners throughout the whole of his life if there were no social restrictions... The human female is much less interested in a variety of partners." The fact that he qualifies *human* (and not American, Western, European, Modern, etc.) male and... more... - Karim
Karim, please name one human society that doesn't treat females differently. In some African societies, they mutilate girls to keep them chaste and restricted to one man (they make sure that sex isn't pleasant for them). In China, single mothers are treated like outcasts. I just read that in India, girls have to be home by dark. Do boys get burqas? I just read that in India, girls have... more... - MiniMage
just saying all human societies treat women "differently" from men isn't saying much. it just implies that men and women *are* different, which they are. :-) what you seem to be implying is that women are always treated *worse* than men in all societies. is that what you mean? i am not a social scientist, but i didn't think that was strictly true, given the existence of... more... - Karim
and just to speculate wildly, i'd say some cultures demonize "temptresses" because men are such easy marks. lol it is widely believed that it takes more effort for men to be celibate than women, and women are the ones holding back, sexually. (whether this is true is another question.) sometimes the same phenomenon occurs in those quitting any addiction. they demonize the thing they're addicted to (cigarette, drink, woman) rather than themselves for being so weak. [reaches for cigarette & glass of gin] - Karim
I'm not saying women are always treated worse. Remember, I hate when people say what's true of some/most is true of all. In fact, I remember reading that there were some aboriginal cultures where sexual experimentation was encouraged and expected of both girls and boys before marriage. Anyway, I wonder what Sarah Hrdy would say today: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette... - MiniMage
it's the biological aspect of the divide in (traditional, common) male/female sexual attitudes that makes it so particularly depressing to me. - edythe
Wow - how did you find this post?! LOL - Mona Nomura from IM
know if that anit true what is the world coming too. In females self value is so important because most girls have none and that is plan stupided and it makes me so mad so i love this post thank u - Raecheal
Paul Buchheit
Chrome OS will help kill Silverlight and other non-open tech, preventing msft and others from recapturing the web. (though I expect that it will support Flash by necessity)
Good point. - Robert Scoble
I hope it doesn't. After all we need good media delivery platforms. - Swaroop
yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it. - zio bodhisattva
Chrome OS might be a compelling case for SVG/<canvas> + <audio> tag replacements for flash. Dunno what SVG's perf is like on WebKit tho. - Matt M (inactive)
Microsoft will port it. It's all about codecs & DRM. Ogg Theora isn't all that great. - Rodfather
Is that Steve Jobs disguised as Zio ? - Swaroop
@Swaroop Yes, we do. Like HTML5. - Benjamin Dobson
@Swaroop eh eh, I've got flash disabled on all my systems :) - zio bodhisattva
@Benjamin I'd prefer HTML web apps over native apps anyday. But it'll take time for it to mature - Swaroop
Rodfather, I don't think that will be an option for msft :). If Chrome is built the way I would do it, there is no installation per-se -- everything runs in the browser and the config in stored in the cloud (and cached locally). The computer is a pure appliance. - Paul Buchheit
@Zio You're the real Steve Jobs - Swaroop
Microsoft moves much too slow to force new standards these days. - Louis Gray
@Louis: IE8 flunking ACID test :) - Swaroop
What about more standard codecs like h.264? That isn't open and is in hardware already. - Rodfather
h.264 is established and must be in there, but it's not a platform like Silverlight is. - Paul Buchheit
I know some of the guys behind silverlight. It is some great technology. Too bad it's from Microsoft and is closed. - Joe Beda from iPhone
A world with no Flash and Silverlight. I can't wait. - Paul Grav
Yeah, it's too bad they didn't open-source it. This stuff with Mono is silly -- if you want to make a real standard you need to make the real implementation be open. - Paul Buchheit
MS are about 10 years too late with Silverlight. And they'll most likely be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting HTML5. - Paul Grav
Zio sez (hopefully humorously): "yeah, nobody really needs flash. kill it" -- have you ever watched a single YouTube video in your life? Like seventeen gazillion other people across the wired world. yeah, you're right, nobody needs Flash. ha! - .LAG liked that
Remember Dave Clark in 1992, "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code." - Guy Vander Heyden
.LAG: most YouTube videos are playable without Flash now. My iPhone plays most of them and it doesn't have Flash. Certainly by the time the Google OS came out YouTube would be converted completely to non-Flash capability. - Robert Scoble
Robert: The youtube flash application helps read the flv files on Youtube's servers and provides a UI (decoder too). - Swaroop
Even Google admits they're not sure I'd bit for bit html5 video is less bandwitj consuming than flash. And flash isn't just media delivery, also interesting games and apps like tonepad, splicemusic.com's online sequencer, etc (I'm musically inclined, so most of my examples will be along that line) and please don't suggest we redo it all in java - Ed F from Nambu
Maybe we'll see commercials encoded in movies if everything is open. - Rodfather
Flash is too established to kill off right now, so I'd be surprised if Chrome didn't include flash support. It will take many years to get rid of that thing. First they need to fix the standard browser to not be so broken (lack of video, multi-file upload, etc), then they need everyone to switch to the new html5 solutions. - Paul Buchheit
Scoble ...that may be true, and YouTube plays on my Pre without Flash (yet)...but that doesn't mean that "nobody needs Flash." really? what would replace it? - .LAG liked that
Use HTML 5 instead! - Minh Bui
Is it just me or does Native Client (NaCl) remind you of the Microsoft Active X approach? - Daniel Chow
But who prevents Google from taking over the net? - Andreas
youtube videos play on iPhone/iPod Touch as they are higher res mp4 files NOT flv files. It was a big deal when Steve negotiated that deal with youtube. - vijay
You have Moonlight to run Silverlight applications in Linux. Not perfect, but then an application made on Silverlight is "not perfect" by definition - Marcos Marado
The point here is that Google has no motivation to include Silverlight on these machines, and installing software likely won't be an option (it's a web appliance), so it will be absent from a lot of netbooks, just as it is absent from iPhones. That cuts into market share, which is a bad thing for a platform that is trying to compete with more universal tech like Flash and HTML.... more... - Paul Buchheit
@DanielChow: NaCl has very little overlap with ActiveX, apart from running native code. It runs in a provably safe way, and explicitly does *not* allow it to access arbitrary host APIs. But it can be quite useful when you need to run code that would be too slow in Javascript (even on v8): e.g., heavy encryption/decryption, possibly codecs, definitely game physics, and so forth. - Joel Webber
There is a time and a place for Flash and Silverlight so I hope it will run it. There are simply some things you can do which aren't possible, or practical in html/css/javascript. - Steve Temple
Paul: why wouldn't Chrome OS come with Moonlight? And if not, why wouldn't you be able to just install it? And third, why the hell would people want Moonlight for? I never installed it and not even once felt the need to! - Marcos Marado from fftogo
because of moonlight http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlig... the potential userbase of silverlight is greatly improved, agree that projects which don't consider compatibility are limiting their potential - Mike Chelen
@mindboosternoori Ryanair site uses silverlight: http://www.ryanair.com/site... that's the only website I know that uses it - for this you would need moonlight :) - Ihar Mahaniok
Flash is needed for the google os to be useful in education. Many education based websites are flash based. - Willowdale
@Paul "Google is probably paying OEMs to ship with this OS, so instead of paying $x/machine to include windows XP, they will get paid $y/machine to include Chrome." - paying present tense, already? Isn't it enough for OEMs not to have to pay hefty licenses to Redmond, etc., while being able to ship with a free, stable OS+browser combo; they need to be paid to do that as well? - ianf ⌘
I sure hope so. I think the wide array of JavaScript libraries have been killing Flash for years. Silverlight was never really a player. The only think keeping Flash afloat is video - Scott Radcliff
I don't know what's under the hood of Silverlight (nobody knows), but Flash is basically a sprite engine controlled by Actionscript, which is basically an adapted version of Javascript anyway. It's nicely packaged though, and has an army of developers, so it won't go away that easily, at least not until there are Flash-to-Canvas/ HTML5 porting tools/ translators and the like. - ianf ⌘
to follow that logic...photoshop is needed as well - Chris Hofmann
somebody call me when http://playboyarchive.com is working in Chrome OS (it's currently implemented in Silverlight) - Karim
If it gains any traction at all, MS will just make Silverlight version that will run on Google OS. Sure google could block it, but they haven't done so with the Chrome browser. - Jeff Weber
Interesting. I doubt the Google OS will get that big anytime soon though. - Scott Radcliff from email
Silverlight doesn't have a chance now...I wonder what would Adobe Air do. - Saad Kamal
not really, if google want to be open then they will need a plugin architecture for it and then MS could just port for it. I really don't see this troubling mainstream users any time soon. - Darren Stuart
Though I agree with the view that MS monopoly may erode as alternative devices get adoption over PC/Notebook, and these devices will mostly run on open source OS, but it may take years to create a significant change in every day usage of normal users. In the end, OS choice is mostly done by manufacturers, and they would be happy to get paid by open source vendors for putting their OS on... more... - Kaan Bingol
People want media. Hulu, Netflix, Kindle, iTunes, etc. They need to address that or they are DOA. - Hayes Haugen
Hayes, what makes you think it will lack media support? - Paul Buchheit
I don't think it will lack licensed media support but what deals they are able to make will be crucial. - Hayes Haugen
Hayes, i thought you were going to say that Netflix was using Silverlight. ;-) - Karim
Yes, they are, what is their deal with MSFT? Can they do non Silverlight distribution? - Hayes Haugen
i believe the Netflix non-Silverlight distribution is a format called "DVD" that works over the "Snail Mail" protocol. ;-) but clearly if Google is paying OEMs to install Chrome OS, they can pay Netflix to go back to Flash which Chrome OS will probably support "by necessity" ;-) - Karim
How can Google make money from Chrome OS? Or does it want to make money from it except through advertisement? I still can not imagine that all software and service are free and sponsored by advertisements. - Derek Wei
All Chrome OS questions are answered by today's Fake Steve Jobs ;) - Hayes Haugen
Is there a need to make money? If more and more people eschew desktop offline applications in favor of online web based apps, it means more pageviews, more eyeballs, more advertising inventory, plus has the side effect of undermining a big competitor's cash cow. - Ray Cromwell
That's the key, Google wants everything online. They figure the more people online, the stronger they become, and the more money they make. At least that what was said at the Chrome launch. - Scott Radcliff from email
I'm amused that the "backwards compatibility" argument against alternative operating systems has slowly turned into "does it support flash", and when you unpack that it really means "does it play YouTube". I suspect Google will make sure ChromeOS cna play YouTube and they don't need Flash to make sure of it. - Nick Lothian
Is it possible that Microsoft will write Office for the Web using Volta instead of Silverlight? Could be a showcase announcement for their attack on GWT - Ray Cromwell
I think Microsoft is going to focus less on the front-end of the web and more on the back-end, middle tier and database sides. Azure is a big deal that consumers aren't talking about because it's not flashy but will be pretty important to developers (and especially enterprise-level applications) when it's finally ready because everything becomes an interface to the cloud. Microsoft is... more... - Lindsay
Azure looks really cool. Hint: so did Blackbird. - Michael R. Bernstein
lol blackbird (scary redmond flashback) - a good example of azure platform utilization can be seen via jon udell's elmcity project - http://blog.jonudell.net/elmcity... - mike "glemak" dunn
Nosense, I want silverlight, flash, html and any other technology in my desktop & mobile phone. Silverlight? yes, there you can develop under Python, Ruby et al, instead of the outdated javascript. - Sebastian Wain
It looks like with Native Client, you should be able to write your Chrome OS app in any language you feel like. So far, they have some examples in C/C++, but one of the things they ported is a Lua interpreter. If Adobe isn't going to invest heavily in fixing the show-stopping bugs on non-Windows versions of Flash, it's inevitably going to die, and there's really nothing either Google or Apple can do even if they wanted to support Flash better. - Victor Ganata
...ActionScript3 is ECMASCript-compliant. I know nothing about standards bodies, and shii like that, but what if Adobe dropped ActionScript and said, "You can now use pure Javascript to build Flash applications..." It wouldn't be a big leap. I'm pretty sure that would shut-up all the Flash haters. And to the folks who say Flash is hanging around just because of video...well, video is... more... - .LAG liked that
Actionscript is just the glue for the more advanced what-iffy graphic functionality of Flash. They can not drop it for Javascript, because it contains additional graphic primitives that JS lacks. But it's not the JS-or-Actionscript that makes it a target for hate, it's other things. Nobody denies that it's pretty capable, but it is also badly written, eats up memory like no other, makes... more... - ianf ⌘
I like this post! - Mohammad Abdurraafay from iPhone
I honestly don't know how necessary Flash is. Apple seems to be doing fine without supporting it. But certainly Gnash and Swfdec should be implementable on Chrome OS. The fact is that without Adobe's full support on a given platform, Flash apps will always be second class citizens on alternate platforms, and so far, there's no indication that Adobe is interested in fully supporting any platform other than Windows. - Victor Ganata
ianf ...you bring up great points about Flash's detriments, as does Victor, but until there's a better way to bring video to the Web, I can't see it disappearing. Adobe seems to keep improving the Flash VM, hopefully they'll address those CPU-hogging issues and make a more efficent runtime. Yeah, I hate hearing the fans kick-in when visiting a Flash-heavy site too. <sigh> - .LAG liked that
alternative to flash video such as ... html5 :) (requires ff3.5) http://www.dailymotion.com/openvid... - Mike Chelen from IM
that only covers video and audio... *sigh* - Ed F from IM
Ed, only??? thats one of the main reasons cited for the continued requirement of flash on popular sites like youtube - Mike Chelen
I know, and it seems I'm the only one who mentions Flash's other uses... :-/ - Ed F from IM
Ed, those other uses can be accomplished through pure Javascript, video was the last remaining stumbling block - Mike Chelen
Still waiting on non-Flash recreations of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... Well aware of how someone mentioned higher up how you can combine javascript and svg to get nifty flash-like effects. I want apps like that though ^ Only real alternatives I've seen are Java-based ones, and those runs even slower than Flash. - Ed F
Pardon me, but the OP is a ridiculous conclusion. For that to be the case, Chrome OS would have to kill Windows, OS X, etc altogether. Paul, I understand your viewpoint as being an ex-Google person, but that's just NOT going to happen. Right now the video specification from HTML5 has been dropped because of an impasse, meaning that we may be transitioning from 1 closed-source boss - Flash - to another - H264. Good luck. - LANjackal
But why do these type of apps have to be written in Flash at all? You can easily do the same thing in C, C++, ObjC, Python, Ruby, etc., with the Native Client API that they're building for Chrome. http://code.google.com/p... - Victor Ganata
write them yourself then. until then, I'll stick with desktop apps or Flash equivalents - Ed F from IM
I'm just saying, it's not like Flash is the end-all/be-all. As Apple well demonstrates, some people can live quite well without it. - Victor Ganata
Victor ...i think the answer to the 'why do these have to be written in Flash at all' question is because Flash is installed on such a significant portion of Web browsers. But I recall that Adobe Flex had a competitor, Laszlo/OpenLaszlo, which compiled apps to SWF or to Javascript. Who's to say that Adobe doesn't have the same capability of making SWF apps into JS ones? On one hand, it... more... - .LAG liked that
Ed, such apps are possible with Javascript and HTML5 multimedia features, the question will be how difficult developers find it, and whether the performance is fast enough - Mike Chelen
LANjackal, there is a question of degree in that Flash + H264 uses proprietary software and codec, while HTML5 + H264 requires only the codec. while OGV is no longer part of the spec, it can certainly still be used to have completely open video formats, and recent comparisons have shown it performs well http://people.xiph.org/~maikme... - Mike Chelen
Silverlight's 3 is looking pretty impressive today but tend to agree - Charlie Anzman
still haven't updated yet. Busy with something on Firefox - LANjackal from IM
What everybody seems to be missing about Flash is that it works because there is one implementation which is mostly backwards-compatible and the same across platforms. It beat Java because, among other reasons, Java just didn't work the same across JVMs and platforms. The problem with HTML5 is that it will have a different implementation for every browser, and that means your app/game... more... - Gabe
Yeah the video spec for HTML5 is currently a disaster - LANjackal from IM
Paul, don't you prefer brutal competition SL vs. Flash vs. standards bring to the table by definition? Or are you more into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - 2020 Google Union - type of ideology? - Kari Honkanen
Kari, I don't understand your question. Competition is good, but with open-source we get that -- no need for flash or SL. - Paul Buchheit
Paul, no, we don't get the same level of competition with open-source only. As long as there's an opportunity for big gains (like in this case to bridge the gap before html 5 era...to satisfy demand), there will be innovations driven by that. I believe we all benefit from a free market economy that includes commercial, closed source, innovations. I am more scared of the possible future... more... - Kari Honkanen
I agree that the future is neither open nor closed, but a mixture of the 2. Been preaching that for a while now, but then again there are the fanatics on either side who can't see anything other than a homogenous future - LANjackal from IM
I wouldn't worry too much amount multimedia. By exposing WebGL, (and hopefully OpenCL), you can offload a lot of compute intensive stuff onto the GPU via GPGPU techniques, and NativeClient is there to take up the rest of the slack, but the for the vast majority of iPhone-like games, I'm willing to bet V8 Javascript on a modern processor is more than enough. That leaves licensing issues... more... - Ray Cromwell
Paul, so are you saying that Google will block both Flash and Silverlight from ChromeOS? That's a new take on 'open.' - Cliff Gerrish
MSFT next smart move: get Chrome OS (it's BSD licensed), inject IE9 and Silverlight into it and go benchmark against Chrome :) - Claudio Cicali
MSFT sucks Claudio :) - Orlando Pozo
@caludio: They've already done that, somewhat. Silverlight 4 Beta supports Chrome. However I'm pretty sure it's probably technically impractical to run another browser atop Chrome OS anyway - LANjackal from IM
Something feels contradictory about a system touted to 'kill' competitors being 'open'. Sounds almost predatory to me. - Karoli
If the concept of open source didn't allow for competitive business plans then quite a few companies that depend on it wouldn't exist. The "happy smiley" image most FOSS zealots promote isn't reflective of reality. There will always be competition, even among the free - LANjackal from IM
I'm not opposed to non-open software, but for OS, browser, etc I prefer that it be open. Cliff, Google isn't going to "block" anything, but they can certainly choose what to include, and my guess is that they won't include SL. As Claudio points out, MSFT can make their own version of ChromeOS that includes SL, which is why open source software is nice (it can't be crippled too much or else someone will fork it). - Paul Buchheit
I have heard somewhere that Fash uses it's own port where Silverlight works over the HTTP port. That's why Netflix works so well. To that, Flash costs more on a sever side because providers can charge more for that port traffic. Could it come down to who is cheaper? (I am fully prepared to be wrong). - Johnny
Johnny, they both use HTTP -- there's no difference there. - Paul Buchheit
Is Chrome OS BSD-licensed? I thought it was using a Linux kernel. - Victor Ganata
@Paul - well, Flash can do P2P stuff over non-HTTP posts, but that is very new (Flash 10 I think). The cost isn't affected anyway. - Nick Lothian
My understanding is that netbooks would have to be absurdly popular for Chrome OS to make a dent in the popularity of Flash or SL. - Gabe
not rly, the defeat of Flash & SL depends on the rise of HTML5, which will b supported by multiple browsers. Unfortunately spec disagreements r holding that up. That's another advantage of closed systems : fewer cooks often makes the broth get done faster lol - LANjackal from IM
it is possible to have smaller groups for open source software, such as google's own gears api http://code.google.com/apis... - Mike Chelen
How is HTML 5 going to defeat Flash and SL? I haven't used it, but I don't see anything in the spec that looks like it could compare. - Gabe
@Gabe - what do you think HTML5 is missing? It does video, drawing, local storage, "threading" via WebWorkers. The biggest hole I'm aware of is the lack of access to webcams & microphones. What have I missed? - Nick Lothian
HTML 5's not "missing" much in terms of its ambition. What it's missing is a consensus among its contributors. Flash and SL have gone through several iterations while HTML 5's been sitting there - LANjackal from IM
Nick: When you say HTML 5 has "drawing", are you refering to the Canvas element? I would not consider an immediate-mode procedural raster drawing library to be much of a competitor to retained-mode declarative vector libraries like SVG or Silverlight. Programming with the Canvas tag is sort of the equivalent of programming in assembly language for bitmaps. - Gabe
@Gabe: I think you've got it upside-down. A Canvas-style API is the fundamental basis on which you can build a retained mode structure like SVG, et al. If a platform includes a retained-mode library as a convenience, so be it. You can build SVG on Canvas, but not the other way around (hacks like IECanvas notwithstanding -- they have horrible performance characteristics and are a nasty abstraction inversion). - Joel Webber
So, if Moonlight (Mono) runs on linux -- Will google make sure it doesn't work on Chrome OS? - Cliff Gerrish
No they won't, because it Silverlight already runs on Chrome as of Beta 4 - LANjackal from IM
Joel: I don't think you said anything contrary to what I said. I just don't understand why any programmer would want to waste time writing an app using a low-level library when I could use a high-level library that implements everything for me. - Gabe
@Gabe - I agree, and people are implementing those libraries now. See http://raphaeljs.com/ for example. Also, don't underestimate the convenience factor. I don't own any Flash development tools, but my text editor works pretty well for Canvas+JS based stuff. - Nick Lothian
Nick: Didn't the author of raphael have some massive rant about how bad the Canvas element is? And I don't have any Flash dev tools either, but I use a text editor for most of my Silverlight development. It is incredibly convenient to be able to type something like <DataGrid ItemsSource="{Binding tabledata}"/> into a text editor and not have to create the data grid myself. - Gabe
Why is Flash a "necessity" for an OS? I enjoy what flash can do, but it is like putting pimped out leather Oldsmobile seats in a Ferrari. It would definitely be nice, but certainly not a necessity. - Dan Douglass
Early post goof up. To your original point, I agree. I like how Google is approaching the internet space with web apps that can be run with out a bloated browser. - Dan Douglass
Dan Douglass: Flash is necessary because so many web sites rely on it. How many people would want to get a netbook that couldn't play FaceBook games or watch YouTube videos? Of course Google is in the unique position of being able to make YouTube work on ChromeOS without Flash, but they probably can't do anything about Hulu, Vimeo, or any of the other video sites out there that require Flash. - Gabe
Anyone else think Joy is Spam? - Chris Myles
already reported it yesterday :) - Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ from IM
"Now that you've given up Coors for craft beer, it's time you gave up Coke for Fentimans Soda ($2.50). Botanically brewed with all-natural herbal ingredients, the full-bodied flavors include Ginger Beer, Curiosity Cola, Victorian Lemonade Soda (contains the juice of 1½ lemons), Mandarin & Seville Orange Jigger Soda, Dandelion & Burdock Soda, and Shandy Soda (contains 70% Beer)." - Derrick from Bookmarklet
That lemonade soda is the business. Mix with vodka...YUM. - Anika
OMG, gimme that orange soda. - Ayşe E.
Cool! Where can I get that? - LB needs a hero!
Wait...$2.50? It cost me more than that. I think I had paid closer to $4. - Anika
Oooh, I have to track this down and try the ginger beer. I'm trying to find something that will save me from the effort of learning how to make my own. - Maria Niles
I need that Victorian Lemonade. *drools* - Kisha from BuddyFeed
this would have more retro appeal if they called them "phosphates" instead of sodas. ;-) - Karim
I like the idea, Derrick, but I gotta stick with the family ginger beer: http://www.reedsgingerbrew.com/brews... lol - Melanie Reed
Reed's is good stuff, Melanie. You'll get no argument from me. - Derrick
Sean McBride
Officer at eye of storm says he won’t apologize - The Boston Globe - http://www.boston.com/news...
Officer at eye of storm says he won’t apologize - The Boston Globe
"When Sergeant James M. Crowley climbed the front steps of Henry Louis Gates Jr.’s house last week and unexpectedly placed himself in international headlines, it was not the first time he had a memorable encounter in the line of duty with a prominent black man. Nearly 16 years ago, as a Brandeis University police officer, Crowley desperately tried to save the life of Reggie Lewis after the Boston Celtics star collapsed while practicing in the school gym. “It bothers him terribly that he couldn’t save him,’’ Crowley’s 74-year-old mother, Verina Crowley, said yesterday, speaking of her son and the famous basketball player." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"But people who know Crowley were skeptical or outright dismissive of allegations of racism. A prominent defense lawyer, a neighbor of Crowley’s, his union, and fellow officers described him yesterday as a respected, and respectful, officer who performs his job well and has led his colleagues in diversity training." - Sean McBride
He may not be a racist, but he did a racist thing. Do you think someone can act out societal norms - like racism- without consciously thinking about it? I do. - anna sauce
+1 anna - Christopher Chung
Is he guilty of doing a racist thing? Yes. Is he guilty of being a racist? That's still to be determined. - anna sauce
I have a lot of sympathy for officers usually because in the height and drama of the moment, it's hard to think clearly, even if it's your job and you're trained for it. But this apologist approach, based on helping a former sports star, is tacky. If I was him or advising him, I'd say, mea culpa and work towards opening up this situation to the light more so it doesn't happen again. - anna sauce
What "racist thing" did he supposedly do? - Brian Sullivan
Are you really asking me that? Haha. - anna sauce
Yes I am -- the fact that Gates is black and Crowley is white do not automatically make any of Crowley's actions racist. From the reports it seems Gates was being an asshole and Crowley overreacted and arrested him. If Gates had been white he would most likely have been arrested. - Brian Sullivan
I'd be an asshole too if a cop came into my house and arrested me for no good reason. - Derrick
Just because he has compassion in easy situations when he is on his 'home turf'(officer) doesn't mean it translates into the challenges in life. The cop has a lesson to learn and he should have made a public apology. He was in someone else's home(the cop) and arresting Gates in this own home!!!!!! ALL EGO!! - Myrna
I take it you haven't read Gates' side of the story. - anna sauce
There are racial disparities in arrest rates to estimated crime rates, Brian. (To expand: taking estimated number of crimes committed by black and white men, black men are more likely to be arrested for the same crimes relative to their share of the crime rate.) - Andrew C (✔)
If a cop questioned me while I was trying to force my way into my own house, under the reasonable suspicion that I was in the middle of a break-in, I would *thank* the cop for trying to protect my property, after calmly explaining the situation to him and offering ID. Wouldn't most people? There had been a previous break-in attempt at Gates's house not long before this incident. - Sean McBride
And it's interesting that you don't believe HLG when he said he did that. - anna sauce
Sean, if you doubt racism in this counrtry, let me share with you a comparative scene. I broke into my apartment recently as a white woman, and I was helped by two strangers. So, hmmm. - anna sauce
very interesting anna - Myrna
Never had to show ID. - anna sauce
Anna, do you have a link to Gates' take? I haven't read it myself. - chrisofspades
And you're not being fair, or even level. You're over positing one side of the story. - anna sauce
Anna -- I know there is a great deal of racism in this society. That generality doesn't make Crowley a racist. - Sean McBride
Crowley's side would be more believable if the Cambridge police didn't have a history of this sort of thing. - John (bird whisperer)
Anna -- what if someone tried to break into your house and claimed to be you to passersby? You don't think cops are aware of that kind of scenario? They are paid to be suspicious, and the suspicion is sometimes justified. - Sean McBride
Well, Sean, for one, my neighbors know me really well. So sadly HLG had that not going for him. Another, I'm glad they would intervene. If the person had identified themselves a smy sister/mom (has happened before) I hope they let them go and NOT ARREST THEM. - anna sauce
Though how his colleague didn't know HLG from Harvard is beyond me. He is a superstar there, and a superstar in academia. And she works there!! - anna sauce
Anna -- I agree: Crowley shouldn't have arrested Gates. And Gates should have handled the situation much more intelligently than he did. - Sean McBride
I just quickly scanned nearly 400 comments on the Gates/Crowley case in response to The Boston Globe article: http://www.boston.com/news... The sentiment is running overwhelmingly pro-Crowley. The Boston Globe is one of the most liberal newspapers in the nation (with many Harvard University readers):... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, you do know that Boston can be a pretty racist city, right? And that liberal != automatically non-racist? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C -- what evidence do you have that the Boston Globe is a racist newspaper? The Globe is regularly reviled from the right for being a far left pinko op. Do you disagree with the substance of any of its reporting about Crowley? An interesting comment on the article: "This seems less about race than about class. Gates is POd because a lowly cop didn't recognize and defer to the star Harvard professor. Cue audio: 'Do you know who I am???'" - Sean McBride
I don't have any evidence that the Globe is a racist paper, but then again, I didn't claim that. And you should know as well as anyone that the right wing calling anyone a pinko far leftist only means that position is somewhere left of far right. - Andrew C (✔)
And as to the substance of the article, I don't see how it's relevant at all that he helped treat Reggie Lewis. And I hate to break it to you, but OF COURSE he and his family and friends would say he's not racist. That would be true of nearly anyone, no matter how racist they were. (Excluding the fringe who think it truly is acceptable to say racist things in public.) - Andrew C (✔)
Have you read Gates' lawyer's statement? http://www.theroot.com/views... "The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his... more... - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew: so: according to Gates and Ogletree, Gates calmly cooperated with Crowley's requests. Gates and Crowley have two very different stories about what happened. I am going to wait to see what develops before assuming either story is true -- this has become an international incident, and quite a few reporters are going to be all over it. The comments at The Root don't look very promising for Gates' side: http://www.theroot.com/views... Maybe The Root is also a hangout for racists. - Sean McBride
Isn't that a little on the line of "he said, he said" especially now that lawyers are involved. Still don't see where racism is implied. - Brian Sullivan
The only hint of racism that I see is that Gates called Rowley a racist. If Gates was white and called Rowley a fascist pig -- would that have elicited the same response? - Brian Sullivan
Andrew: from The Root site you pointed to: "The Police report was not written by the arresting officer. It was written by Officer Figueroa, a Latino. The third Cambridge Office was African American. With the exception of Officer Crowley making initial contact with Gates, at the door, the entire incident was witnessed by many others. If the Police Report was inaccurate, over a dozen... more... - Sean McBride
I agree that right now it's just a matter of determining who's story is true. IF it is true that Crowley was presented the ID without any problem and yet Crowley proceeded to demean Gates by arresting him, then you MUST consider some sort of (perhaps subconscious) racism as a potential factor, because, consider: If (1) Gates were WHITE and (2) the story proceeded exactly as Gates'... more... - Christopher Chung
Kandeezie - you are being patently unfair. Classing me and others that are reluctant to agree that this case is racially motivated without more evidence as those that deny racism every single time it is pointed is equally ridiculous. - Brian Sullivan
Kandeezie -- as I recall you accused me of being delusional and if not directly in veiled way of being a racist. I think the burden of proof in this argument lies with you. - Brian Sullivan
Christopher -- if no one supports Gates' story, and if Latino and African-American cops support Crowley's story, case closed from the standpoint of public opinion, especially regarding the racism charge. One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?" Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism. - Sean McBride
Sean - some of those Root comments predate the updating of the story. - Andrew C (✔)
"One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?"" - I must have missed where anyone said Gates said that... - Andrew C (✔)
I think this view of racism, and this entire discussion, is kind of simplistic. We're not solving an equation, or a brain teaser. I think it's a mistake to try to reduce these kinds of questions into logical progressions of facts and pseudo-facts. For example, Latino and black cops support the police testimony. Yes, that definitely is, in some ways, in support of Crowley: The black guy... more... - Christopher Chung
Andrew: there's this thing called Google. :) google(gates crowley "do you know who i am" http://www.google.com/#q=gate...) - Sean McBride
1UP Christopher. - Derrick
Sean, the first 5 links there are all hyperbolic satire of what Gates might have said. _No one_ said Gates actually said such a line. Your BS detector needs a LOT of upgrading. - Andrew C (✔)
Christopher -- this is a very complicated story, with some comedic as well as tragic elements. Tom Wolfe should write a novel based on it. - Sean McBride
Tom Wolfe would be perfect. lol. fyis, more fun reading from a couple days back if anyone hadn't seen it yet. : http://www.theroot.com/views... - Christopher Chung
What is interesting is that as more facts come out about this case, the accusations of racism keep being expanded to include everyone who has questions about Gates's behavior (including left-leaning publications). Even the most progressive news sites and blogs out there are loaded up with comments that are critical of Gates, and which are taking sharp notice of the classism angle in... more... - Sean McBride
Again, "he said, he said".... From Gates' Roots interview: "The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured." and "... more... - Christopher Chung
If I were Gates's PR adviser, I would urge him to work out some mutual reconciliation with Crowley, one which doesn't require either side to grovel. It was a mutual misunderstanding. Both gentlemen are fine, upstanding human beings. It's the best way to go with this. I've already seen enough reportage and commentary on the controversy to understand that Gates's position is not nearly as strong as it should be. He's losing the commentary wars on the progressive blogs -- a really bad sign. - Sean McBride
Sean I think you're responding to the fear, among whites, of being called a racist. And this video blog highlights the issue (and is more eloquent) then I could ever be. It's not about bein ga racist, it's about doing racist things: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - anna sauce
Am I right, after reading the police report, that Mr. Gates assumed that the officer was a racist from very beginning, regardless of what the officer said or did later? Moreover, the whole story goes on and on only because Mr. Gates public activity benefits from this publicity. I think Sean is right, the decent thing to do would be to reconciliate publicly and do not let it end in court. I doubt it will happen though, for the reason mentioned above. - andrei_c
Just goes to show, even the left has problems dealing with issues of race. For some, this is really clear cut. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right conclusion, but it would be nice if people didn't off hand consider that conclusion crazy. The thing that is infuriating is this sense that we shouldn't at all question the cop's motives for arresting HLG, as if there were absolutely no way he could be influenced even subconsciously by the fact that HLG is black. - Victor Ganata
I see no reason why he should be conciliatory. He was arrested in his own house, after proving he lived there. - anna sauce
Ok, so what if he's not a racist. He definitely has ego/arrogance, interpersonal relations problems and should be required to go for some kind of group therapy. And at the very least, apologize. - Myrna
It was a mistake that he was called to the house. So admit it and leave. Say you're sorry for imposing. - Myrna
"Cop Who Arrested Gates Teaches Racial-Profiling Classes: Complicating the matter is the fact that Crowley, who has been accused of racial profiling by some (even though it was a neighbor calling 911 that pegged Gates for a burglar as he tried to get into his own home), has actually taught a class on the contentious law-enforcement issue for years. The class specifically explains how... more... - Sean McBride
It doesn't matter. You can be extremely sensitive to racial issues and still commit a racist act, or say something that's racist. - Victor Ganata
Crowley on the incident: “I will say that when I first encountered the professor, I really wasn’t sure what I was dealing with,” Sgt. James Crowley tells WEEI radio. “The reason I asked the professor to come outside was not as someone suggested because I knew I couldn’t arrest him in his house. I didn’t know who he was. I was by myself. I was the only one who was standing there. I had... more... - Sean McBride
Even after he showed him his ID? Forget about race here. Is it truly reasonable to be arrested for entering your own home after fully identifying yourself? Basically, Crowley is saying that he was going to arrest HLG no matter what, then. - Victor Ganata
Does everyone here know that Barack Obama is currently being labeled by many pro-Israel activists as an "anti-Semite" and even a "Jew hater" because his administration strongly opposes Israel's continued building of settlements? (Reportedly the Israel prime minister recently described Rahm Emaneul and David Axelrod as "self-hating Jews.") Are the charges true because they have been... more... - Sean McBride
Yay, police! Clearly, this all Gates's fault. Doesn't he know as a Black man in America you don't mess with the police? What's his Ph.D in? - Derrick
It's important to distinguish between doing/saying something that is racist, and actually being a racist. It's not a losing issue among people-of-color, but maybe we really don't matter after all. - Victor Ganata
Being arrested on your front porch _after_ proving you're the homeowner, not a burglar, and by a cop who refused to provide identification, is a losing issue? I'm going to stick with the losers, then. - Andrew C (✔)
http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - "The lesson most cops understand (apart from the importance of using the word "tumultuous," which features prominently in Crowley's report) is that a person cannot violate 272/53 by yelling in his own home." - Andrew C (✔)
1UP Andrew - Derrick
+1 Andrew - anna sauce
The journalists, and the officer, are denying "being racist" - but are they denying the racist acts? Nope. Why would someone- anyone- arrest someone in their own home? Because they are belligerent? If no violence was done, who cares? And if they are justified? This Boston Globe article is pretty irresponsible. It's addressing an allegation that wasn't even made. It's addressing a charge that was fabricated. It's almost what I hate about traditional, sensationalist media. - anna sauce
Is it possible the professor overreacted? ...and it was influenced by race. And then the cops re-overreacted? And it wasn't influenced by race. Is that possible? - Edward Zwart
I don't think HLG was the definite instigator in this case. You still have to ask why Ms Whalen found it necessary to call the cops on her neighbor. I mean, anything is possible, maybe everyone but HLG was completely color-blind, but it doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake, and I was always taught that you apologize for your mistakes. - Victor Ganata
(liking this to come back to it.) - Ayşe E.
Good lord -- a friend just reminded me that I attended two parties at this very house several years ago -- a Christmas party and a summer barbecue. (I must have had a few at those occasions to forget that.) And as I recall there is some well-justified paranoia about crime in most parts of Cambridge, including the Ware Street area between Harvard St. and Broadway. And Victor: the... more... - Sean McBride
Edward Zwart: I think you nailed it: Gates overreacted because he is understandably sensitive about racial issues, and Crowley overreacted because that is often what cops do when you get too aggressively in their face. So picture a happy solution and photo: Gates and Crowley with their arms around one another's shoulders, big smiles, thumbs up, and the caption no harm, no foul. Just a big misunderstanding all around. Then let a next generation Tom Wolfe explore the darkly comic dimensions of this incident. - Sean McBride
It gets better: "For five of the past six years, Crowley also has volunteered alongside a black colleague in teaching 60 cadets per year about how to avoid targeting suspects merely because of their race, and how to respond to an array of scenarios they might encounter on the beat. Thomas Fleming, director of the Lowell Police Academy, said Crowley was asked by former Cambridge police... more... - Sean McBride
Just because he's being called out for a racist act doesn't mean he's being called a racist. People make mistakes. People are better off for admitting their mistakes. Even if you have good intentions, if you do the wrong thing, you should apologize. - Victor Ganata
More: the neighbor who reported what she thought was a possible break-in works at Harvard Magazine and is considered a reliable person. She was trying to do the right thing. http://www.mercurynews.com/nationw... - Sean McBride
Victor -- since Gates unfairly accused Crowley of being a racist, I think there is little chance that he is going to receive an apology unless he climbs down. And I strongly disagree that there was anything racist about Crowley's act -- I think he sincerely thought that Gates was out of control. This looked like a racist act at first glance, but the more details we acquire, the more obvious it becomes that it wasn't. - Sean McBride
Just because you're trying to do the right thing doesn't mean you can't be culpable when it goes wrong. - Victor Ganata
Sean, we just have an obviously different definition of racism. I'm not saying Crowley is a racist. I'm not saying his actions were done with malicious intent. But the fact of the matter is that what he did just further poisons the well, and given that Crowley is the one in the position of greater power, I think he also has the greater power to heal this rift. - Victor Ganata
Hey, Anna, Andrew, Victor and others, let me emphasize: if you think this was a racist incident, I respect that. I'm just expressing my point of view. This story is open to many interpretations. And I understand that African-Americans are going to be looking at this story from a different set of experiences than mine. - Sean McBride
Of course Crowley wouldn't have arrested a 58 year old white professor with a cane. Because he probably wouldn't have approached the situation in an entirely different manner. And even if it wasn't explicit racism, it was most likely implicit racism. We'll never be able to prove racism. But Gates should never have been arrested in the first place and there's been quite a few lawyers posting in agreement of this. Gates has the right to raise his voice to the police. - Graham English
MVB, you believe that Vince Foster conspiracy theory? - Andrew C (✔)
1) Vince Foster shot himself in the mouth, so I have no idea what your "Clinton suicide (two to the back of the head)", and the Clintons married in 1975 -- is your confusion about their love (and are you using these mind-reading powers for good or evil?) because prominent Republican politicians who are currently married for love generally tend to be married to their third wife? - Andrew C (✔)
I just took a quick glance at the flood of articles flowing through Google on this story this morning, and it looks to me that opinion is continuing to turn against Gates, including from the left progressive side of the political spectrum. Is anyone reading the situation differently? Also, I think Obama made a major political mistake by entering the fray without first collecting all the facts. This is looking more and more like a controversy about classism than about racism. - Sean McBride
Should Obama take his cue from Bezos? :) - Edward Zwart
Edward -- are you referring to his walk-back from the Amazon Orwellian incident? Actually, I just noticed that Obama is walking back from his "stupidly" remark, which only served to highlight the classism angle on the Gates/Crowley contretemps. - Sean McBride
First definition for contretemps popped up by Google: [an awkward clash; "he tried to smooth over his contretemps with the policeman"] :) - Sean McBride
Well, it was inevitable that Obama would retract. You can't call cops' behavior stupid as the pres. I more meant the manner in which he retracts. Off to see how he worded it... - Edward Zwart
(btw, yes, I meant the Amazon Orwell incident) Doesn't look like Obama took the opportunity to admit any wrongdoing. Too bad IMO. - Edward Zwart
Edward -- I agree: Obama's walk-back was as inept as his original comment. Usually he is smarter than this. - Sean McBride
Notes from a Phantom Negro: “Skip Gates:Please Sit Down” http://thisweekinblackness.com/2009... Less than laudatory remarks on Gates from a black Ivy Leaguer who knows the social dynamics in play in this incident from the inside. - Sean McBride
Oh, well, if someone black says it then - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I thought it was an insightful essay, from someone who knows this social terrain from the inside -- what did the author get wrong? The smart commentators on this episode all seem to be noticing the salience of classism angle. - Sean McBride
Smart, as defined by you. If you read Gates' comments, he specifically mentions "the incident made him realize how vulnerable poor people and minorities are "to capricious forces like a rogue policeman, and this man clearly was a rogue policeman." The essay you linked to doesn't reflect that. - Richard Lawler
Sean - The writer you just cited also states that racial profiling is a fact of life for black men. His argument is that supposedly Gates forgot this because of his stature. This essay does not excuse Crowley at all. - Katy S
From the essay: "Which brings me to Skip Gates. He isn’t outraged because he feels he was the victim of racial profiling by the police (that dubious honor goes to his foolish neighbor). He’s outraged because he was the victim of class profiling. He didn’t resent being identitified as Black; he resented being identified as that kind of Black, the kind of Black that can be hassled and... more... - Sean McBride
By the way, I strongly disagree with the remark that the neighbor was "foolish," or that her call was motivated in any way by racism. But I am sure she will have an opportunity to tell her side of the story. - Sean McBride
Sean, was that quote supposed to address my criticism of the article? - Richard Lawler
Katy -- there is not a shred of evidence to support the claim that Crowley or the neighbor were motivated by racism or racial profiling in this case. Watch how this story continues to unfold. - Sean McBride
Richard -- I didn't see you address the classism issue which was the core of the article. The author also remarked that Gates should have been smart enough to keep his cool. - Sean McBride
So if you can find a black person like the author of that article that says Gates should shut up, kept his mouth shut and acted like a good boy, it's ok then? Gates = wrong and Crowley = right? - Derrick
I'm sorry, I forgot that I typed a point by point rebuttal of the article, oh wait I didn't. I mentioned what the article conveniently ignored. - Richard Lawler
Derrick -- criticism of Gates is coming from all across the political/ethnic/racial spectrum, not just from a single black Ivy Leaguer -- Google it. - Sean McBride
I never said the neighbor was foolish. And I didn't call the cop a racist. I noted that there are reasons, historically and in the present, that explain why Gates would be upset. This police officer is supposedly an expert in profiling - he should have known this too. And, it was stupid to arrest Gates the way he did. When Obama said that, I saw it as a lawyer's position. The arrest charge certainly didn't stand. - Katy S
Sean, I'm well aware of how to operate a computer, thanks for that. My criticism is that black people aren't monolithic, we don't all some tow some consistent black protocol on even matters of race. To point out an article written by a black and move along the lines of, "Well this one black guy criticized Gates and the cop is therefore right," is dismissive of proves your point well enough, but your point only. - Derrick
Sean, do you really think this went down exactly as it should have? That, regardless of race, it was the right thing to arrest a man in his own house for being surly and demanding you give him your name and your badge number? I guess I'd been going on the assumption that we all agreed that this went down wrong, and that it's really a matter of who needs to take responsibility for it going wrong. - Victor Ganata
Victor, as I mentioned previously, I don't think the arrest should have gone down, and I believe that both parties were at fault. I also think that Gates has more to lose from this mess than Crowley. Most of us would cooperate with a police officer who was investigating a possible break-in at our residence, not verbally abuse him. (And, to repeat, Gates' home had recently been the target of a previous attempted break-in.) How much do you want to bet that Gates walks back from his initial position? - Sean McBride
Arguing who has more to lose is an odd tack to take. If you think he shouldn't have been arrested, why should he be willing to let it go? I'd suspect, as someone who has never been arrested, that it's a somewhat traumatic experience and that, by his own words, he wants to make it a learning experience. - Richard Lawler
Derrick -- in no way did I mean to imply that that single author spoke for blacks as a whole (nor do I agree with the article in all the particulars). But I found his point of view interesting to throw into the mix because of his first-hand knowledge of the social world in which this incident occurred. - Sean McBride
But his point of view doesn't address Gates' stated reason for his issues with the incident. Note: I actually agree with the article in large part, but it's not in any way relevant. - Richard Lawler
Richard -- bottom line -- I need to wait for all the charges and counter-charges to be sorted out before coming to any firm opinions about what really happened here. I took what I thought was a somewhat contrarian position on the story (in part, because I tend to be contrarian-minded by nature), but then discovered that the politically incorrect questions that occurred to me were being... more... - Sean McBride
Interesting that you define your questions as politically incorrect. I don't know where that comes into play, or even what that is, but you're still not addressing what I mentioned. As far as being "fully vindicated" the charges were dropped. I don't know how much more vindicated you can get. The point I brought up is Gates' own statement that if he weren't who he is and had the resources and connections he has, would there be any possibility of vindication forthcoming? I wonder if you think about that. - Richard Lawler
I'm noticing an interesting overlay. Those that are libertarian, no government, "govt out of my bedroom" oddly backing up the cops here in a case of being arrested in your house for breaking into your house. - anna sauce
anna =) - Andrew C (✔)
Richard - I agree with the article in that a Harvard man will tell you he went to Harvard in the first 5 minutes. But not in that you should "shut down and be quiet," that any way to manage the blatant lopsided behavior of the police to racial issues is to be subservient. I think Gates chose a great time to bring this matter to the fore. Despite being jet lagged, tired, old, and locked... more... - anna sauce
Before this whole thing happened, HLG was one of my intellectual heroes. He's a very, very smart man. I think this was well thought out (that he knew he could go quiet, or he could resist- in his way Lawfully resist.) - anna sauce
I guess what I'm trying to say- HLG is not a black professor, he is one of the best professors, one of the best intellectual minds. - anna sauce
Sean, that article talks about a black man's "healthy fear of the police" and the "black tax". These are statements of fact, but _this is not how the world should be_. I can't imagine how you think an article that says "life isn't fair and Skip Gates forgot that here" puts Gates in the wrong. - Andrew C (✔)
I'd quote that saying about how only unreasonable people change the world, but it's a bit early (on the west coast) for greeting card sentiments. - Andrew C (✔)
So on NPR yesterday they had an African-American first police superintendent of a town in Alabama, I believe, and he was telling the anchor that recruits today aren't given the same kind of background and fabric on race relations- like Jim Crowe- so that they can handle this "stew" of issues. I thought that was interesting. - anna sauce
From an interesting discussion on the Huffington Post about the Gates affair: "Even once a physical threat had been removed, there was apparently another level of threat that Gates apparently posed. In the midst of the confrontation, Gates apparently tried to call the Cambridge Chief of Police and threatening the officer: "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH". This was a direct... more... - Sean McBride
Continued: "Such stylized interactions are well-known to most ordinary citizens. If you get pulled over by a police officer for a traffic infraction and you react with some contrition and humility, you have a fair chance of escaping with an oral warning. Challenge the officer, and you get a ticket. With certainty. Regardless of your race." - Sean McBride
"Would we want our police officers to back down before a white corporate executive or elected official who threatened to call a Chief of Police? " ... An exec or elected official _who did nothing wrong_? Hell yes. - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, do you agree with all of the things you've quoted/linked, or are you just quoting them to spark more discussion? - chrisofspades from email
Chrisofspades -- I very rarely agree with all or even most of the quotes and links I post -- they are starting points for analyzing and discussing an issue or situation. It's important to look closely at many points of view on controversial issues. - Sean McBride
Quick poll: has anyone here ever verbally abused a cop? (My own answer: no, for reasons of rational self-interest. If you have a disagreement with a cop, there are legal channels to pursue. Getting in the face of a cop is a no-win proposition.) - Sean McBride
Sean, okay thanks. just wanted to clarify where you were comin from. and its CHRISofspades, not CHRISTofspades! world of difference there hehe - chrisofspades from email
Yeah, what Kandeezie said. Insufficiently respecting the officer's authoritah is not a crime. - Andrew C (✔)
Chris -- I already caught the typo and fixed it. :) Quick question: have you ever verbally abused a cop? (I am curious if anyone here has done so, or would do so.) - Sean McBride
I have never verbally abused a cop. talked back to, sure, but never abused. but that's cuz I've done something wrong, and I usually want to get on their good graces so they let me go. - chrisofspades
Most people have enough common sense not to verbally abuse cops -- including most Harvard professors. - Sean McBride
You are a brave woman, Kandeezie. :) My inclination is to play the odds -- getting in the face of a cop is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. - Sean McBride
one incident is very different then a career. we judge Obama's actions on Israel based on his pattern of abuse. Obama's vilification of this guy is more of the same pattern of not having all the facts. Crowley might be wrong... but Obama was out of line. - NoahDavidSimon
Well, Obama and I seem to be on the same page: "At an impromptu appearance at the daily White House briefing, Obama said he spoke with Crowley over the phone, and said he wanted to share a beer with Crowley and Gates at the White House. "My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve it the way the wanted to resolve it," Obama added." Smart move -- Obama may be able to fix the situation. (I love when I get my predictions right :) -- it's an ego thing.) - Sean McBride
The worst thing for me re: the cop is that he showed low common sense, and created more drama. They are supposed to diffuse situations. He's making me love my local cops, because I've seen them, coutnless times, diffuse situations and have a thick skin, be sensitive, and understand the cultural situation at play. This guy? A clown. - anna sauce
The Salon article was written by someone who apparently has a problem with Gates that goes well beyond this incident. From what I know of him (which is admittedly little, though we are in similar academic fields), he's arrogant and self-aggrandizing. That doesn't make arresting him in his own house, or on the porch thereof, right, particularly if he had identified himself as the homeowner. - Steve Lowe
Kandeezie -- I don't think that the police are God. What I think is that they are human beings who are under a great deal of stress, who are underpaid, who often carry guns, who possess professional skills in the application of force, including deadly force, and who are backed by the full crushing power and apparatus of the state. Most people are understandably reluctant to provoke a... more... - Sean McBride
Wow -- I just noticed that the article I linked to here by Phantom Negro -- "Skip Gates, please sit down" -- is currently the most popular article on Salon.com -- arguably the most influential *progressive* site on the Web. The fifth most popular article is "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" by Joan Walsh. This is opinion from the *left*. Opinion on the right is, of course, much harsher. So this incident is a total lose-lose for Obama. - Sean McBride
You can see the opinion of web traffic? What fricking tools are you using? When did google trends add that feature? - Richard Lawler
Richard -- visit the Salon.com home page -- it lists Salon's most popular/read articles. I was astonished to see the Phanton Negro's article at the top of the list. - Sean McBride
Oddly, I don't remember questioning where it is on the list. Let me reread my previous comment. - Richard Lawler
Addendum: the Phantom Negro article ranks #1 for Salon.com's most active letters, and the Joan Walsh article "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" ranks #2. Visit http://www.salon.com/ The controversy is continuing to rage, with both Obama and Gates suffering major hits. The tragedy here is that the nation is facing problems of much greater consequence. - Sean McBride
Repeating the same false argument doesn't make it valid and/or relevant. - Richard Lawler
Richard: politicans who don't pay attention to public opinion trends risk losing support for their political agenda. That is the larger context to keep in mind. I think we should be talking about more important issues that Gates. Obama still hasn't extricated himself from this mess, despite his generous offer to host peace talks at the White House. And Gates and Crowley are still... more... - Sean McBride
And this explains how you know what political trends are to the right and left based on the most popular page on a particular website. The context I keep in mind is that most people, like you, are linking to the article and not reading it, merely focusing on who it is written by and the slant you perceive in it. - Richard Lawler
Not true, Richard. I've read and fully digested at least a few hundred articles on this story now, and have a good sense of how opinion is trending on it. That is why I was able to predict with confidence that Obama would walk back from his initial statement on the story -- his staff are looking at the same data I'm looking at. And he may walk back even farther, unless this story disappears pronto -- he has more important issues on his plate. - Sean McBride
Richard: more progressive opinion on the story, this time from Talking Points Memo: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009... Notice the sharp annoyance creeping into Todd Gittlin's voice about the way the Gates story has been distracting attention from much more important issues, especially health care. - Sean McBride
Which again, explains how traffic to a particular article indicates political trends on the left or right. Walking back, forwards or otherwise, that statement makes less sense than the arrest that sparked this whole thing. - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I am relying on hundreds of articles and comments, not a single article, to draw the conclusion that public opinion all across the political spectrum is turning against the hardline pro-Gates position on this controversy. Believe what you will. - Sean McBride
Which is interesting, because that's not what you said. Also, I don't know what a "hardline pro-Gates position" is. I do see the misguided belief that there's a pro- or anti-gates side of things here. That kind of simplification is what you get from trendsurfing mass media and comments to form an opinion, I prefer just dealing with the facts. - Richard Lawler
Trendsurfing-- - Andrew C (✔) from Android
Without knowing the actual methodology of collection, I'd definitely be wary of trusting auto-generated stats. As someone else has noted quite cleverly, the plural of anecdote is not data. I realize it signifies nothing, but I find it amusing that a search on Google News for "Henry Louis Gates" yields articles primarily supportive of Gates. Even more amusing, one of the top articles... more... - Victor Ganata
In any case, while we might dwell and dissect the case at length, the bigger picture is that it has definitely opened up dialog on the problem of race, and the controversies in law enforcement, with racial profiling specifically, but with civil liberties in general. While I can't exactly give you a numeric ordering as to where this ranks with health care reform or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think it's hyperbolic to declare that these issues are completely trivial. - Victor Ganata
Yeah, didn't Michael Jackson's autopsy report come out yet? - Victor Ganata
Richard and Victor: what URLs do you use to do quick and dirty content analysis on a topic like the Gates/Crowley controversy? These work for me: 1. Collecta: http://collecta.com/#q=gate... 2. Feedly: http://www.feedly.com/home#tr... 3. Friendfeed: https://friendfeed.com/search... 4. Google Blogs:... more... - Sean McBride
Here are two others: 1. Icerocket Blogs: http://www.icerocket.com/search... 2. Icerocket News: http://blogs.icerocket.com/search... I quickly scanned all these sources this morning, and I am not seeing much sympathy for Gates. Most people are not buying his narrative on the story. - Sean McBride
What content analysis am I doing? Really, people who are obsessed with rehashing this story days later this story are heavily biased? Is that supposed to be surprising in some way because I'm not surprised. However since I don't form my opinion based on the general feeling of icerocket blogs, I fail to see how its relevant to me. As a self stated contrarian, this doesn't seem odd to you? - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I try to separate objective political analysis from my own political opinions as much as possible. I am fascinated by the science and technology of analyzing politics in ways that produce accurate predictions. As for the long life of this story: Barack Obama guaranteed that outcome from the moment he made not one, but two public statements on the issue. This story is going to be difficult to make go away at this point -- too many Americans have become overheated about it. - Sean McBride
Two impressions of Gates's site, The Root: http://www.theroot.com/ 1. Gates has permitted many comments to stand that are highly critical of himself -- that is impressive, and he deserves a large pile of points for that. 2. Quite a few comments appear multiple times -- is that a technical glitch at the site? - Sean McBride
I don't need to analyze politics to predict that a rich, overentitled (imo) black man being arrested for mouthing off to a policeman won't engender much sympathy from an overwhelmingly white blogosphere. - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I don't see many black academic and opinion leaders rushing to take Gates' side in this mess. Have I missed them? Like the rest of us, most of them think this story is complicated and needs more facts and analysis to sort out. What will be critical is the eyewitness testimony and the tape of the proceedings. But Gates already wants to "move on" and Obama is begging for a truce. - Sean McBride
So, by your analysis, black "academic and opinion leaders" (I'm not sure who these people are) are like "the rest of us" in thinking the story is complicated and needs more facts to sort out, but at the same time, the majority of opinion is"unsympathetic to gates' version of events." Are the rest of us in the majority or not? - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I think most people are skeptical about Gates' original claim that James Crowley was motivated by racism in an incident that has dominated the media for several days now -- and they are guessing that whatever new facts that do emerge won't support Gates. And most of them wouldn't have gotten in Crowley's face if they were in similar circumstances, on the grounds of simple... more... - Sean McBride
Excellent, thanks for answering my question directly. Now, exactly how many links would I need to provide to change your opinion on what black "academic and opinion leaders" think of the incident? Would 1 suffice, 5, 10, 20, 100? Oddly, to me, the article you linked to from Salon seemed very sympathetic to Gates' version of the events. - Richard Lawler
Richard -- I will be glad to read any links you post. But we can we agree in the meantime that this story has taken turns that have not been good for Gates, Obama or Obama's political agenda? - Sean McBride
Richard -- let me add that the most disturbing aspect of this incident is that has unleashed torrents of *real* racism from many right-wing blogs and sources, and reminded me that Henry Louis Gates is definitely not being paranoid when he presumes that he lives in a world that is heavily populated by racist enemies. I just don't think that James Crowley is one of those enemies -- far from it. - Sean McBride
Why would I agree with any of those things? I've never understood what your opinion that "Gates has more to lose" was based on. As far as obama and his political agenda, I don't think this affects those at all. I don't know what the police officer is or is not an enemy of, but I don't think he was justified in arresting anyone in regards to that incident, and while I don't want to guess anything, I don't expect there will be any evidence that comes out to support the arrest. - Richard Lawler
Richard -- Obama and Gates have already indicated that they themselves believe that they have a great deal to lose -- that is why they are backing off from this conflict with haste. Crowley stood his ground, and they blinked. This guy has some serious backbone. - Sean McBride
If the way HLG was treated by Crowley is what people of color should expect from non-racists, then clearly all people of color are completely screwed. - Victor Ganata
I agree that Obama does have a lot to lose politically, but is that really surprising? I'm a little unclear as to what exactly HLG has to lose, though, that he already didn't lose when he was arrested for no good reason. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- one assumes that Gates would probably prefer not to be held responsible for turning much of the law enforcement community against Obama as the result of a false charge of racism and racial profiling. That worry perhaps explains his sudden eagerness to "move on" -- this story is not developing in a positive way for either Gates or Obama. One hopes that the White House meet, if... more... - Sean McBride
Victor -- by the way, where I am coming from on this: I strongly supported Obama over Hillary in the campaign, and Obama over McCain in the election. I have mercilessly criticized members of my own "race" (ethnic group: Northern/Western European) repeatedly right here on Friendfeed -- Bill O'Reilly, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck, James Inhofe, John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Rush... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, maybe it's the failure of my imagination, but the only way this could possibly go completely wrong is if somehow they prove Gates should've been arrested after all, and that somehow he did break the law. As it stands, it looks like it was the wrong way for authorities to handle the situation. Could Gates have handled the situation better? Yes. But the outcome was entirely in Crowley's hands. - Victor Ganata
And from my perspective, it looks like opinion is only turning not because Gates is in the wrong more than Crowley, but because people are tired of talking about issues of race and the conflicts between law enforcement and people of color, which is not surprising, but is nevertheless really sad. - Victor Ganata
Sean, do you think Gates should have been arrested? if so, why were the charges dropped, and why did the Cambridge mayor offer an apology? if you think Gates shouldn't have been arrested, why do you suppose Crowley did it? - Karim
My take is not about who was wrong or right. I think things happen to move us in our spiritual development or evolution. Neither was wrong or right. But connecting with Gates' personality and having just arrived back from a return trip from China, he must have been exhausted. He was perturbed/annoyed and impatient. Didn't want to talk or be civil to a stranger at that moment. So he was... more... - Myrna
I still think it's wrong for a person to get arrested for something that isn't a crime. Normally, the libertarians would be all up in arms about something like this. - Victor Ganata
Victor, everything in life isn't about fair. We all have to learn lessons and move to next level. Sometimes something that is wrong or unfair is for a higher purpose, you know? (We meaning each or collectively.) - Myrna
"No mention of race in Gates incident 911 call" http://www.necn.com/Boston... (Race had nothing to do with the call to the police that initiated this incident.) - Sean McBride
Karim -- I think the arrest was a bad idea, but not especially outrageous. People get arrested for disorderly conduct all the time, and according to reports from several eyewitnesses, Gates was agitated and abusive. The black police officer on the scene supported the arrest "100%" on the basis of his observations of the situation. I think the Cambridge Police Department withdrew the... more... - Sean McBride
Myrna -- you summarized the situation perfectly. See also an article by Jesse Washington in the AP today -- "Analysis: What they saw during the Gates arrest" -- with this money quote: "Neither man understood what the other man saw." (Jesse Washington covers race and ethnicity for The Associated Press.) http://www.google.com/hostedn... - Sean McBride
Victor -- if the police received a report that your residence was possibly the target of break-in in progress, wouldn't you, on *libertarian* grounds, want them to respond quickly and aggressively to the report? (Personal note: a friend of mine had his residence burglarized a few months ago, and lost thousands of dollars worth of electronics gear.) - Sean McBride
If an officer's first words to me were "step out of the house" (or something like it), not "hello" or "we've had reports of a break-in," I wouldn't be thanking him. A phrase like that is a sign that you're guilty until proven innocent. I don't appreciate that kind of hostility. - John (bird whisperer)
Victor -- I think that issues of police abuse of power against minorities *should* be talked about, and very loudly. But false accusations of racism and racial profiling only cloud the issue. - Sean McBride
Ok, so first you can politically analyze web traffic, then you can rationalize and mindread a reason for dismissing the charges that still justifies the original arrest. Are you still sure that most of these opinions of black academic and opinion leaders mirror your own? I see many that mention this idea of "neither sees what the other saw" in the context that one of them was able to... more... - Richard Lawler
Sean i'm more interested in what *you* think. so by "bad idea" you think Gates *shouldn't* have been arrested? then why was he arrested? assuming race played no role -- which is the point you keep hammering -- why was a 58-year-old Harvard professor, who walks with a cane, arrested on the front porch of his own home? - Karim
if something horrible happens and people come up with what *you* think is a crazy explanation for it, it's one thing to call it crazy, but you should be prepared to offer some other explanation that makes more sense. - Karim
Karim -- the arrest was a bad idea in retrospect, once we understand the full human situation, and who precisely it was that Crowley was confronting at that fateful moment on July 16. But Crowley wasn't in possession of that information when this confrontation began to unfold, and when Gates started pushing his hot buttons. But let's see what the tape reveals -- the Cambridge police are... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, you didn't answer my question. You admit Gates shouldn't have been arrested, yet you have no explanation for why he was arrested. anyone attempting to explain the incident in the context of Obama's statement that "there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately" (which is a well documented, demonstrable fact) gets an argument from you, but you have no other explanation to replace it. - Karim
Karim -- I thought I did address that issue: neither Gates nor Crowley understood the situation in which they were enmeshed. and the confrontation quickly escalated and turned ugly. When you verbally abuse a police officer before a public gathering, there is always a good chance that you will be arrested for disorderly conduct, no matter what your race or ethnicity. That's the way the... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, "found themselves enmeshed" - how convenient for yet another life's lessons. That's how it happens..we find ourselves in the middle of some chaos and should ask ourselves, what's the lesson. And its not unfortunate, there are no mistakes. That's why we're here. It's a gift. :)))) - Myrna
Sean, that's the heart of the matter, really: that cops can not only arrest people for little to no cause, but also do things like beat the crap out of them and taser them when they're already down or shoot them 41 times when they're unarmed, and they rarely suffer severe repercussions, and that these things happen disproportionately to people of color. While, yeah, this the way the world works, it doesn't make it right. - Victor Ganata
Sean please explain how it can be a wrongful arrest -- as you said, "bad idea" -- and at the same time we somehow need some more facts to come in. the question is, based on what we know now, do you think it was a wrongful arrest, or not? as near as i can tell, you think it was wrong, but dismiss it by saying "That's the way the world works." you don't dismiss an injustice by saying it was predictable. - Karim
Victor -- incidents like you describe happen all the time in America, and should be protested and discussed very loudly. But I doubt that Obama would have heaped praise on Crowley and invited him to a friendly meeting at the White House if Crowley were that kind of cop. When advancing one's position in a policy discussion or debate (say, about racial profiling), it's usually a good idea... more... - Sean McBride
you are also putting Gates and Crowley on some kind of equal footing by saying neither "understood the situation in which they were enmeshed" and both were responsible for escalating the situation. but who's more responsible for acting like a grownup and de-escalating the situation? the sick, tired old man with a cane screaming "get off my lawn?" or the beefy young guy with a badge and gun and the authority to use both? - Karim
Karim -- arrests for disorderly conduct are a vague area, and are subject to a wide range of interpretations. I think "discretionary" is the operative term. To be honest, I will have no firm opinions about the arrest until I see the transcript, and know who was telling the truth and who was lying. Gates and Crowley can't both be telling the truth, because their stories are contradictory. - Sean McBride
hahaha Sean. ok first you repeatedly say the arrest was a "bad idea." now you are saying you have "no firm opinions." you can change your mind once more before lunch, you know. ;-) based on what we *currently* know, would you say it was a wrongful arrest or not? - Karim
It wasn't a wrongful unrest if you go to a deeper level or layer. If you want to stay on the superficial or obvious layer, have fun both of you. - Myrna
Karim -- I said that the arrest was a "bad idea" because it stirred up a ferocious shit storm that has knocked more important issues off the public agenda (for instance, HEALTH CARE -- that's the immediate context) and because from a discretionary standpoint Crowley should have probably ignored Gates' abusive language. How justified Crowley was in exercising his discretionary judgment in the way he did will be made clear one way or the other by the transcript, which we haven't seen yet. - Sean McBride
Sean -- you said twice earlier the arrest was a "bad idea" in response to my asking you whether Gates should have been arrested. the implication being, he shouldn't have been arrested. now it sounds like you are saying he shouldn't have been arrested -- NOT because he didn't do anything wrong, but because the arrest distracted us from health care. :-D ok. so, again, i ask you, was it a *wrongful* arrest or not? - Karim
Myrna, sorry, in this case i am sticking to the superficial facts-as-we-know-them layer and not the deeper Karmic wheels-of-justice layer. :-D - Karim
Karim -- police officers are legally within bounds in making arrests for disorderly conduct. Context is everything, and the degree of disorderliness. Arrests like this are sometime abusive and unfair, sometimes well-justified. Let's see the transcript. No eyewitness has yet stepped forward to contradict Crowley's side of the story. Let's get the facts. - Sean McBride
LOOOOL Karim, be my guest. I understand(on a deeper level) why you are reacting. - Myrna
And I don't think it has much to do with the cop or Gates. - Myrna
Sean, again, based on what we know now, do you think this fell into the "abusive and unfair" category of arrest, or the "obviously well-justified" arrest? - Karim
Karim -- I will be able to answer your question once I read the transcript carefully -- it should be out within a few days. - Sean McBride
Still lurking here. This is a crazy thread. Sean are u gonna hire an assistant soon? - Christopher Chung
Sean, so you have *no idea* whether the arrest was wrongful, but you are *sure* that it didn't involve racial bias? the fact that the police nolle prossed the case doesn't give you a clue as to whether it was wrongful? the fact that the mayor of Cambridge apologized doesn't give you a clue? the fact that we should presume innocence doesn't help, either? - Karim
Christopher -- actually, this discussion isn't too challenging or demanding. :) I just take an occasional glance at Google news and blog search feeds, note the most important new facts and keep adjusting my interpretation. But the story seems to keep unfolding in a very definite and consistent direction (see, for instance, the latest on the woman who made the 911 call). Both Obama and... more... - Sean McBride
"caved?" you mean like "police dropped all charges and the mayor apologized" caved? that kind of caved? - Karim
Karim -- I was referring to the kind of "cave" in which Gates suddenly wanted to "move on" and in which Obama walked back from his first remarks about the incident, heaped praise on the alleged racist rogue cop Crowley and invited him for a friendly meet and beer at the White House. This is one of the most bizarre situations I have seen develop in any presidency, and it is amazing that... more... - Sean McBride
Palin & Sanford aside, i'd still like to understand how you can have no opinion on whether the arrest was wrongful or abusive, yet you can be sure that anyone who suggests it was is wrong. how can you have no opinion about something, yet be convinced that someone who does have an opinion about it is wrong? - Karim
Karim -- the transcript? Facts? Look before you leap.... - Sean McBride
Sean it seems like your "look before you leap" advice should have been taken by the Cambridge police, who arrested a man and then decided not to press charges. what i'd like to know is why you are sure anyone who has an opinion formed about the role race might have played in this is wrong. or are you saying that race *might* have played a factor in the arrest, that maybe the cop IS racist after all, but we just need some more "facts" before coming to that conclusion? - Karim
If this was a clear-cut case for disorderly conduct, why were the charges dropped? You have to understand what it looks like you're arguing: that because Gates had a big mouth, he deserved to go to jail. - Victor Ganata
race aside, i'm wondering what ANY old man of ANY color could have yelled from his *own* front porch (after he has been mistaken for a burglar) that, in Sean's eyes, justifies the cops hauling him off to jail? wtf was wrong with the cops saying, "sorry, our mistake" and leaving? - Karim
Karim -- I don't want to keep going over the same ground repeatedly. If you review the previous comments in these threads, you will find a great deal of evidence that strongly undercuts the charge that Crowley is a racist. Take a good look at the facts on that particular issue -- before you leap to assumptions that are easy to knock down. - Sean McBride
Sean, there's evidence for and evidence against. would you admit -- since you claim to have no opinion, since you want all the facts in, etc. -- that it's *possible* racial bias was a factor here? - Karim
The evidence *so far* is 100% against the charge of racism, and it is very substantial and meaningful evidence. - Sean McBride
"so far?" what happened to all this "look before you leap" shit? it sounds like your mind is made up. - Karim
LLL - I heard about it before Obama said anything, but then again, I pay attention to higher ed news services and academic blogs. I don't think it would have received this much attention if Obama hadn't answered that reporter's question, though. - Katy S
Sean, the evidence *so far* is 100% against the idea that Gates should have been arrested at all. the only reason Gates got arrested was the cop kept saying "i'll be outside" because the cop knew he couldn't arrest Gates in his own house. but you're so desperate to acquit the cop of racism that you miss the wrongful arrest. - Karim
LLL - It was pretty huge - I mean, there were nearly 10 topics on my FF feed (everyone's subscriber list is different, of course) the day it first got reported. I think it was national news right away because of Gates' stature. - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, unless someone has a mind-reading device that they haven't told the world about, there's no way to disprove that race motivated his actions. And the only way to actually prove it would be if Crowley told the world that "Yes, race motivated my actions." All the things you've listed are circumstantial evidence. As many have said, you can be the most racially sensitive, most well... more... - Victor Ganata
LLL - I agree. As far as academics go, Gates is pretty well-known so it was bound to get some notice. If nothing else, the case is opening up discussions about the way(s) race and ethnicity often color interactions between the police and citizens. - Katy S
I actually didn't think Obama's comments were that "out there." He mentioned first that they were friends and that he didn't have all of the info. he mentioned the historical/cultural reasons this is a touchy topic. He probably shouldn't have used the word "stupidly," but when he said that I heard it more as coming from a lawyer who suspected the charges wouldn't stand. He's never backed down about the fact that he thinks it was an unnecessary arrest - he's just said that he worded it poorly. - Katy S
I don't know why he chose to answer the question - that's probably a complex issue too. :-) He could have declined, but then maybe it's better that people are talking about the issue, even if they aren't always listening to each other. Side note personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There... more... - Katy S
Victor -- isn't the American way innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent? Many pro-Israel activists (including many non-Jewish pro-Israel activists) have been accusing Barack Obama of antisemitism in recent months because of his sharp conflicts with the Israeli government over settlements and Iran. The attacking language is often harsh and strident. Should we... more... - Sean McBride
Karim -- "so far" was a big flag indicating that my mind was wide open to any new evidence that might prove that Crowley is a racist. - Sean McBride
If you want to discuss racism in contemporary American society, the birthers provide a much more solid platform than the Gates affair. The birthers are brimming over with easily provable racist attitudes, and going after them provides no risk (as in the Gates affair) of being unceremoniously upended and embarrassed by the facts. - Sean McBride
Katy and LLL: when Obama injected himself into the Gates controversy in the way he did, he made the biggest political mistake of his life to date (in my opinion). My mind was immediately boggled, and still is. He is usually much smarter than this. - Sean McBride
Sean. Sean. Sean. Police brutality exists. Racial profiling exists. You're in a bubble! This guy is not excusable just because he once resuscitated a black athlete. The best thing about this controversy is that thousands of african-american men are talking about their experiences with the cops. Do you deny their stories? - anna sauce
A mistake with whom? The only people I really see getting upset about this (Obama commenting) are white men. (with a few exceptions) - Katy S
Sean, that sounds hypocritical. you believe Crowley isn't a racist, but you have "no opinion" on whether the arrest was wrongful. incomplete evidence isn't sufficient for you on the charge of wrongful arrest, but it is good enough for you on the charge of racism. You absolve Crowley of racism, but when it comes to Gates' arrest... hey, we gotta wait 'till all the facts are in, right? - Karim
and it was NOT the biggest political mistake of Obama's life. Jesus. our first black president, what, he's suppose to sidestep a question about the most famous black scholar in the country getting arrested on trumped-up charges? as a state senator, Obama sponsored the Illinois Traffic Stops Statistics Act to *combat* racial profiling. in his presidential campaign he pledged to BAN racial profiling. you expect him to just let this slide? - Karim
A well-informed, intelligent and nuanced discussion of the issues surrounding Officer Crowley's behavior at the Gates' residence: "Brandon del Pozo is a captain in the NYPD (now working for Internal Affairs on internal police corruption cases, but with plenty of experience as a beat cop in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and as a police instructor too). He is also a Ph.D. candidate in... more... - Sean McBride
Ok -- one of the tapes has now made its appearance http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race... We can safely dismiss the charge that Lucia Whalen (the woman who made the call) was guilty of racism or racial profiling. Many people owe her a big apology. (The Chicago Tribune reports, apropos not much of importance, that she "has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent.") - Sean McBride
More: "Cambridge releases Gates arrest 911 tapes" http://www.bostonherald.com/news... - Sean McBride
Sean, funny you didn't mention this part: " But Haas admitted that Crowley's police report did refer to race. " - anna sauce
Anna -- I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. One usually can't go wrong by waiting for all the facts to tumble in and sort themselves out. - Sean McBride
From the Wall Street Journal: "Wendy Murphy, Ms. Whalen's attorney, said her client has received threats from those who felt her actions were motivated by race. Ms. Murphy, who noted Ms. Whalen didn't bring up race in her 911 call, said she "feels that she did the right thing" and Ms. Whalen doesn't have "any regrets about how she reported what she saw."" Threats -- from people who jumped to the false conclusion that she was a racist. http://online.wsj.com/article... - Sean McBride
Ok -- here comes the flood: http://news.google.com/news... - Sean McBride
"Uncooperative gentleman," delivered in a calm voice. "Gentleman" could be a racist code word of some kind, I guess. - Sean McBride
Sean, nice that you wait for judgement on Crowley, but not for anyone else in that case. - anna sauce
Anna -- can you explain what you mean? Where have I jumped ahead of the facts? - Sean McBride
re: my last comment, you said, "I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. " - anna sauce
And? Are you sure you know why the passage appeared in the report? - Sean McBride
I suspect her point is that you have clearly staked out positions on Gates (did you ever find a sourced claim for that "do you know who I am?" thing upthread?) while finding every possible reason not to for Crowley. - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, innocent until proven guilty only applies to criminal cases. Racism isn't a crime in of itself. It's not something that can really be proven. Once again, you can subconsciously commit a racist act without actually being an out-and-out racist, which I've never claimed Crowley is. - Victor Ganata
Andrew -- you couldn't be more wrong. Everything I've stated to date about Gates and Crowley reflect the facts as we know them to date. It strikes me that some people here have a strong emotional stake in painting this as a incident of racism and racial profiling -- they made up their minds from the moment the story broke, and the emotion comes through loud and clear in their language.... more... - Sean McBride
Victor -- do you think that Barack Obama is an antisemite? Is the charge fair? - Sean McBride
Sean, I don't think it's fair, but I can see how Obama's actions can be construed as such, and I don't think there's any real way to prove one way or the other, certainly to the level where it would satisfy his detractors. I honestly think it would be a waste of time to try, too. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- that's exactly the answer I would have provided to my own question. :) - Sean McBride
Sean - "reflect the facts as we know them to date." -- such as the still unsourced "do you know who I am?" thing? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- you're digging yourself into big hole on that remark. Go back and read what Gates said according to the report. He tried to pull rank on Crowley by warning Crowley that he didn't know who he was messing with. Did you even read the report? - Sean McBride
Yes. So you admit that your supposedly verbatim quote -- which you never did walk back -- was made up, then? - Andrew C (✔)
I cannot believe I'm being lectured about not jumping to conclusions or rushing to judgment by someone who wrote upthread "Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism." - Andrew C (✔)
Here you go, Andrew: http://www.google.com/#q=gate... The quote was a perfectly accurate paraphrase of what Gates actually said. - Sean McBride
paraphrase != quote. - Andrew C (✔)
The actual quote is more damning than the paraphrase -- you're grasping at straws. And it demonstrates perfectly the classism in play in this incident. - Sean McBride
Sean, quoting a report that is quoting someone else is not primary source, it's as the reporting policeman recalled. And if you think a lecture is one sentence, um, we have bigger issues here. - anna sauce
The fact that Ms. Whalen didn't mention any racial identifiers signifies nothing. What prompted her to call it in the first place? I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she's the type of person who does these sorts of things, and yeah, if my house was being robbed, I'd like someone to report it. On the other hand, if I'm trying to get into my house and my lock is... more... - Victor Ganata
man this story just keeps getting better. Crowley's police report says Whalen (the 911 caller) told him about "two black males." on the other hand, Whalen is now saying she never said anything about black men. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl...) so either 1) Crowley is lying in his police report or 2) Whalen is lying. hmmmmmmmm. Crowleeeeeeey... joo got some esplainin' to dooooo.... - Karim
Victor -- in communities like Cambridge and environs it's considered to be a sign of good citizenship to err on the side of caution in reporting possible crimes in progress, because they do in fact happen quite often. If the reports turn out to be a false hit, nothing lost. Lucia Whalen did the right thing in calling in the report, and Crowley did the right thing in aggressively... more... - Sean McBride
So who do you think has their story wrong, Sean? Is Whalen lying when she said she never told Crowley about "black men?" Or -- shudder to think -- is it possible a white police officer isn't being 100% truthful about a race-related incident? - Karim
Sean - to repeat what I said before (and I'm saying this as a well-educated white female): "personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There are folks out there who impersonate cops and I know of more than one instance where they have done this with the intent to assault/rape people " If that... more... - Katy S
Karim, thanks for that link. That USA today blog also notes that the police report says they talked to Whalen on the scene before approaching the house (see also the PDF), while Whalen says the extent of their in-person interaction was that she identified herself as the 911 caller and Crowley told her to keep her distance from the house ... and _no_ officer interviewed her at the scene. - Andrew C (✔)
From The New York Times today: "James M. Crowley’s initial response was to a bare-bones report of a crime in process in a neighborhood that had seen 23 cases of breaking and entering so far this year, many during daylight hours." - Sean McBride
From The New York Times today: "More than once on that afternoon, Professor Gates told Sergeant Crowley, “You don’t know who you’re messing with,” according to the police report. But one of Sergeant Crowley’s friends in Natick, Mass., where he lives with his wife and three children, said, “The professor didn’t know who he was messing with.”" - Sean McBride
From The New York Times today: "For the past five years, Sergeant Crowley has taught fellow officers at the Lowell Police Academy how to avoid racial profiling, after being selected for the job by a former police commissioner, Ronny Watson, who is black. “Stellar,” a black Cambridge police lieutenant said in describing him." - Sean McBride
Someone who would arrest him for just talking? - Richard Lawler
Someone whose police report differs substantially from the eyewitness's? - Andrew C (✔)
Racist or not, when he showed the cop it was HIS HOUSE, they should have buggered off, irrespective of what Gates said about their mommmas. - Will Higgins™
The fascinating thing about this New York Times article -- "2 Cambridge Worlds Collide in Unlikely Meeting" http://www.nytimes.com/2009... -- the extreme caution. It's careful not to take sides, and seems to be waiting for new information to emerge to make sense of the story. - Sean McBride
Sean, my point is, you can think you're doing the right thing, but in the end, what matters is the outcome, and the outcome in this case was not good, unless you happen to think that it's a good thing that the resident of the house you thought was being broken into ends up getting arrested. In general, is it a good idea to call the cops if you think someone is being burglarized? Sure. But in this specific instance, it was the wrong thing to do. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- did you notice that this neighborhood has suffered 23 break-ins, most of them during the day, since the beginning of this year? (Reported in The New York Times today.) - Sean McBride
OK, so Whalen may have not mentioned anything about black men, but you've got to love this quote: "When pressed by the 911 dispatcher, Whalen said she did not want to speculate, but said one of them might have been Hispanic, Murphy says." http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... If you don't want to speculate, why do it? - Victor Ganata
Victor -- one presumes she speculated because she was pressed by the police (the dispatcher) to help provide some identifying features of the suspects. Seems reasonable. One is struck by how careful she was not to exaggerate or sensationalize what was going on. There is not even the slightest hint of a racist agenda on this tape -- totally the opposite. - Sean McBride
Reasonable to you, perhaps. If race isn't supposed to be a factor, why make it explicit? She could've just as easily not tried to guess. Once again, you don't have to have a racist agenda in order to commit a racist act, or to make decisions subconsciously influenced by race. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- if you've got suspects in a crime or suspected crime, isn't their physical appearance as defined by race or ethnicity (and all other dimensions and parameters) highly relevant? White? Asian? Black? Hispanic? Arab? That has nothing to do with profiling or racism, and everything to do with narrowing down the field of search. - Sean McBride
Except she was wrong. Why bring it up if you don't know? - Victor Ganata
When you're doing police work, I imagine you rely on every scrap of info you can get your hands on, no matter how weak or peripheral -- you might get lucky. At least that's the way they always portray it in the Jeffrey Deaver-style detective novels. :) The trick is to rate those scraps for reliability and probablility in a way that reflects reality. A guess or vague impression is better than nothing if you've got nothing. - Sean McBride
Well, I'm not a cop, so I don't know how useful a wrong guess is, but I wonder if it just doesn't make it worse for cops and for their relationships to minority communities any time they end up completely misidentifying what ethnic group to narrow their suspicions down to. - Victor Ganata
In many cases they are identifying members of the majority group -- whites. It would be a waste of time to search for African-Americans if the suspects were white. These basic common-sense police methods have nothing to do with racial profiling. What would be wrong would be to the make the presumption, without any evidence, that a crime was committed by a minority or that a member of a minority committed a crime. - Sean McBride
Sean, i had asked you earlier which person you thought was not telling the truth, Whalen or Crowley. given that their stories are not compatible with each other. EDIT: see http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... for discrepancy - Karim
Karim -- that discrepancy is quite interesting, and should be explained. But whatever the explanation, it will not have as much effect on the controversy as videos like this one: video(Black Cambridge Cops Back Crowley- "I Won't Vote For Obama Again" ... http://www.youtube.com/watch...) - Sean McBride
"Colin Powell on Gates: “You Don’t Argue With A Police Officer”" http://www.mediaite.com/tv... Powell: "I would say, the first teaching point is when you’re faced with an officer trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something. This is not the time to get in an argument with him. I was taught that as a child. You don’t... more... - Sean McBride
Police are just people, too, They are by no means perfect. They're folks who haven't been convicted of crimes, but it doesn't mean they haven't committed any or won't. I heard about a cop (from people who worked with him) who was busted driving drunk, and his folks took care of it. They have a code, too, which involves supporting each other, right or wrong. It doesn't mean we should be... more... - MiniMage
Also, given those discrepancies, why has Mr "let's you guys wait till all the facts are in, cause I bet they'll all support Crowley's version" not changed his tune even a smidge? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C -- isn't it about time for you to admit defeat regarding this particular controversy? Obama and Gates were losers in a political firestorm which never should have made the local newspapers, and which was triggered by Gates' monumentally bad judgment. Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House. If you don't like this outcome, take it up with Obama. - Sean McBride
So, I guess you're also implicitly walking back your stance about waiting for all the facts, the ones that were sure to square with Crowley's version of the story. - Andrew C (✔)
I've seen enough facts now to know that the story has been substantially resolved and that everyone is going to move on to more substantial issues, thank God. Crowley came out of this in much better shape than Gates, which is what I suspected would happen from the outset. I didn't buy the Rodney King narrative. - Sean McBride
Sean, 300+ comments, this is nutty! Any how, I was thinking: You repeatedly bring up good arguments/sources as to why Gates was out of line. I think that can be granted, as Colin Powell says right here, that Gates acted less than ideally. And you also keep framing it as a political/news issue - OK, Obama is a "loser" in the PR aspect of it. But what about the truth of the matter? Was... more... - Christopher Chung
Christopher -- Crowley's testimonials from his African-American coworkers -- those who know him best -- combined with his track record -- are going to carry much more weight with public opinion than the speculations of people who don't know him at all and who are speculating about his "subconscious" racism. This story is essentially over. Gates wants to move on, and we should oblige him. - Sean McBride
I'm not saying that others shouldn't post criticism of Crowley in this thread -- feel free to go ahead. - Sean McBride
I think it's been pretty well demonstrated that Crowley ISN'T a racist, I agree with you Sean. But someone (everyone) can act out of racial bias, racist or not. I would certainly say that I am not a racist, and most ppl I know would attest to that. But I live in a black neighborhood and sometimes I catch myself, and I'm embarrassed when I do, automatically being slightly more aware when... more... - Christopher Chung
A few points: (1) Just because a white officer does something wrong to a black civilian doesn't make it a racist, or even racially motivated act. (2) Pointing out (1) has nothing to do with "want[ing] to protect rights, unless the person is non-white". It has to do with logic and reason, and insisting that people not allow themselves to imagine that correlation implies causation. (3)... more... - Karl Knechtel
Christopher -- I couldn't agree more: the role of often unconscious racism and racial profiling in American society (and all societies around the world) requires continuous concern, attention and discussion, completely apart from the Gates/Crowley incident. A subject that greatly interests me is ethnocentrism in politics (and the xenophobia which often accompanies it). And I feel... more... - Sean McBride
"Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House." Hey, wait, how come Crowley got invited to the White House, so clearly he wasn't in the wrong, but Gates also got invited to the same get-together and yet you think Gates /was/ [more] in the wrong? - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew C -- for a US president and a Harvard star professor to bend to a police sergeant and dramatically reverse themselves is quite a big deal -- that's the major story here. You can parse and apportion the rights and wrongs between Gates and Crowley any way you like. Colin Powell is making sense to me on the subject. - Sean McBride
As usual, the Daily Show nailed it. - Edward Zwart
"I think what got under Crowley's skin was not Gates' race, but his snotty attitude, combined with the threat to pull rank." You are an exceptional mind-reader and your talents are being wasted on FF. - Andrew C (✔)
"Harvard Prof Gates Is Half-Irish, Related to Cop Who Arrested Him" http://abcnews.go.com/Politic... "Henry Louis Gates Jr., the black professor at the center of the racial story involving his arrest outside his Harvard University-owned house, has spoken proudly of his Irish roots. Strangely enough, he and the Cambridge, Mass., police officer who arrested him, Sgt. James Crowley, both trace their ancestry back to the legendary Niall of the Nine Hostages." - Sean McBride
NBC/WSJ poll: Gates more at fault - First Read - msnbc.com http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive... "Here's our first tease of tonight's NBC/WSJ poll: By a 27%-11% margin, Americans say that Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was more at fault for his recent arrest than the Cambridge police officer was. But a greater number, 29%, believe that both were equally at fault. And 31% say they didn't know enough to have an opinion." - Sean McBride
Emotional 911 caller speaks following Gates arrest http://www.bostonherald.com/news... "Lucia Whalen, the woman who called 911 on a possible break-in at a Harvard professor’s Cambridge home triggering what has become a national debate on race, said today she has been left shaken for doing her civic duty. “The criticism at first was so painful for me ... I... more... - Sean McBride
More: "Whalen’s attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client was the only one involved who kept her cool - including President Obama. “The one person who should get an award is being ignored,” said Murphy. “There has been zero attention paid to that and I think it’s strange.” Murphy said the president, the cop and the professor all overreacted and acted “badly.”" Murphy nails it -- and that is why Obama and Gates backed down. - Sean McBride
LOL, still on this? - Richard Lawler
Andrew Sullivan: "The Gates-Crowley Stand-Off Explained: They're both micks. Like me. They often get mad." - Sean McBride
Gates is a mick? - Christopher Chung
If I understand the facts, Gates is as much a mick as he is an African-American -- and that explains a lot. :) Perhaps this was basically an Irish bar fight. :) - Sean McBride
Lol that's awesome. they're relatives! - Christopher Chung
The Irish understand much about losing tempers in sometimes irrational ways -- so perhaps Crowley and Gates will in truth be able to arrive at a mutual understanding. (I can see it now: I will be accused of racially profiling the Irish. :)) It turns out that Obama also has some Irish blood, but he has superb anger management skills. - Sean McBride
Sean, well i was asking who YOU thought was lying specifically, Whalen or Crowley. they can't both be telling the truth. given that either the person who called 911 OR the arresting officer is lying, don't you think that has an impact on the story? - Karim
Whalen's story is at least corroborated by the 911 call. Where does that leave Crowley? - Karim
http://www.bostonherald.com/news... -- not that Sean will want to jump to any conclusions ;-) - Karim
What that article is all about: "Officer Justin Barrett, 36, a two-year veteran assigned to District B-3, was placed on administrative leave pending a termination hearing yesterday afternoon. When a supervisor confronted Barrett about the e-mail - in which he called Gates a “jungle monkey” - he admitted to being the author, according to officials. Police Commissioner Edward Davis... more... - Sean McBride
"jungle monkey" - Srsly? day-um. - MikeAmundsen
And he immediately lost his gun and badge. - Sean McBride
well, this should make for quite an interesting "beer summit" tomorrow! - MikeAmundsen
The Gates/Crowley brewhaha -- I can't be the first one to have thought of that. - Sean McBride
"And he immediately lost his gun and badge." And what other response could they've made, with public scrutiny on them? Do you think that teaching a class on profiling makes Crowley incapable of it? I could think he was asked to do a job and did it, no matter how he feels. Sorry, I've had opportunity to mix socially with peace officers, and they're just human beings w/ egos. Racism? Maybe not. It could have been a case of "You must RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY." (Cartman-style) Cops get that way, too. I've seen it. - MiniMage
No opinion on whether Whalen or Crowley is lying, Sean? Even though one of them has to be? :-D - Karim
I'm waiting to see if there is any official response about the discrepancy. What do you envision unfolding from this particular aspect of the story? - Sean McBride
Did Skip Gates comment hurt Obama's popularity? Check out these numbers http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing... "President Obama's job approval rating is down. The latest Gallup poll shows a drop of three points on the week, to 56%, the largest week-to-week slide in his young presidency and a striking fall from his high of 66% in May. And the question is, why?" - Sean McBride
And the fact that the economy is still deep in the toilet and the GOP has been releasing a deluge of propaganda against health care reform has absolutely nothing to do with it? - Victor Ganata
Probably the failure of the stimulus so far to improve the economy significantly (or at all) is the main cause, although one sees little positive commentary from anyone on how Obama initially handled the Gates story. - Sean McBride
From whence do you expect an "official response," Sean? Whalen has already given her "official response," via her lawyer and press conference. Crowley has filed his official police report that contains a conversation with Whalen that Whalen says never happened. - Karim
I am waiting to see if the Cambridge Police Department or Crowley comment on this particular point -- there are several possible explanations, and I am not going to leap to conclusions. - Sean McBride
Funny, you did days ago when you said all eyewitness testimony would land squarely on Crowley's side. - Andrew C (✔)
What do i envision unfolding? i'm not sure. if Whalen lied, i don't know if there would be any legal ramifications. if Crowley lied on his police report, don't you think there should be some ramifications for that? i mean, how much can you trust a policeman who makes things up about what really happened? - Karim
Andrew -- am I wrong in getting the impression that you and quite a few other people have an enormous emotional investment in putting the most racist spin possible on this story? Why is that? It would be very much better for the country, and for the Obama administration, is this were not a major racist incident. What exactly is the payoff for those who want to push the story as hard as possible in that direction? - Sean McBride
If Crowley lied, that would be a serious matter, of course. So: did he lie? - Sean McBride
Whalen being the liar seems less likely at this point, after the release of the 911 call. she had NOTHING to say about race at all, until she was prompted by the police dispatcher, and even then she said, quote, "Well, there were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic, but I’m not really sure." it doesn't make sense that she'd go from not caring/unsure about race during the 911 call, to explicitly talking about "two black males" when Crowley showed up, as Crowley said she did in his police report. - Karim
i mean, this woman answered a question about *race* with "Well, there two *larger* men" :-D and *maybe* one of them was *kind of* Hispanic. then Crowley rolls up and (according to his police report) she's all OMG TWO BLACK MALES WITH BACKPACKS!!! please. Crowley's story doesn't add up. - Karim
There is definitely a problem with that passage in the report -- everyone has noticed it. And pressure should be applied strongly to get answers for why it appeared. - Sean McBride
the question i've been asking is if YOU think that's even *possible.* all your comments in this thread have absolved Crowley of even the suggestion of misconduct or racism, while placing the blame squarely on Gates' shoulders, claiming that he overreacted, that the other officers supported Crowley (as if that were proof of his innocence), that the web zeitgeist as determined by you was against Obama, etc. etc. ad nauseam. no no no Crowley can't be a racist, he has a Michael Jackson album on his iPod! - Karim
if you put 10% of the effort into scrutinizing Crowley's police report that you did criticizing Gates and Obama, it might occur to you that the real victim here is possibly NOT some cop who people thought might be racist. - Karim
again, this isn't some minor detail, some minor discrepancy, some subjective difference about whether it was yelling or tumultuous. this was a cop saying he had a conversation with a person who says the conversation NEVER HAPPENED. that's not a minor detail. - Karim
Karim++ - Andrew C (✔)
And Sean, right back at you at "an enormous emotional investment", considering you're by far the most vocal person on this topic and nearly everything you've shared here has been slanted one way, up to and including quoting some bits that support your position and leaving other bits out. - Andrew C (✔)
Karim -- both Obama and Gates THEMSELVES have backed off from attacking Crowley for misconduct or racism -- and certainly Gates understands the situation much better than you do -- he was a principal in that situation. I imagine that both you and Andrew will be frustrated and angry if Gates doesn't sue Crowley and the CPD and if all parties to the event manage to settle it peaceably and amicably. My question again is, why? Do you feel more personally offended by what happened than Gates himself? - Sean McBride
Sean, i guess every time a black man gets abused by the police you want the black man to smile for the camera and ask "Can we all just get along?" :-D seriously, this particular incident doesn't mean that much to me: this shit happens EVERY DAY. the novelty here is that the black man is a MacArthur genius grant recipient, Harvard prof, holder of multiple doctoral degrees, recipient of... more... - Karim
what i have found galling is YOUR attitude, your hypocrisy, Sean. you hold Crowley blameless, but have "no opinion" on whether it was a wrongful arrest or not. i guess white cops are innocent by default, but you have to wait until "all the facts are in" with black men? you said the arrest was a "bad idea" more than once, then you backpedaled and said it was a "bad idea" because it was a *distraction*, not because an old man should have the right to be upset in his own house. - Karim
Sean, you'd think you'd look at all the people disagreeing with you in this thread, and notice the dearth of people supporting you, and maybe it would have occurred to you at some point that you WEREN'T being as unbiased and impartial as you imagined yourself to be, but you've been completely tone deaf. someone raises a good point and you ignore it, or bring up a non sequitur to "prove"... more... - Karim
Karim -- my position is precisely the same as Obama and Gates: mistakes were made by both parties, and it is time to move on. Why are you and Andrew taking a harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Please explain. - Sean McBride
Sean, how am i "taking a harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates exactly? as i said, i'm more galled at your stream of bullshit than anything else. if Cambridge has one more or one less racist cop on their payroll, it doesn't affect me. - Karim
Karim -- many people disagreed with me in my opposition to the Bush 43 administration, to the Iraq War, to torture and on many other issues. So what? I got it right on those issues from my perspective, and I got it right for the most part on this Gates melodrama -- Obama and Gates moved to positions I advocated days before they adopted them. They obviously haven't the slightest interest in going down the same path as you and Andrew because they recognize that to do so would be a political disaster. - Sean McBride
To get back squarely on point: if a cop comes to your door to investigate a possible break-in in progress, and with the objective of protecting your property, you cooperate reasonably with the cop. Every sane and rational person understands this. If you verbally abuse the cop at length, you may well find yourself in the middle of an unpleasant incident. Colin Powell gets it. Obama gets... more... - Sean McBride
Karim -- you're kidding, right? How can you possibly not understand that you are taking a much harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Are they continuing to launch angry attacks on Crowley and the CPD? Or have they adopted a conciliatory tone over the last week? What is tomorrow's meeting at the White House all about? - Sean McBride
Sean so all this is about how you were vindicated and the political masters of the universe were wrong? seriously, that's pathetic. yeah many people might have disagreed with you about Bush or Iraq or torture, but i'm sure people would have *AGREED* with you, too. not *everyone* would have been saying, "Torture is wonderful! Sean, you are an idiot!" it is one thing to be in the minority... more... - Karim
No, Sean, i'm not kidding. you said i am taking a "harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates. please explain how this is true. if i'm taking a hard line on anything, it's your ridiculous support of police arresting a man in his own home. - Karim
Karim: this is an excellent example of the Big Lie: "you are the *only one* supporting the police arresting a member of a minority in his own home." I am trying to give you some leeway because I can see you are more emotionally worked up about this incident than even Gates and aren't thinking clearly, but that doesn't come close to stating my position. Go back and read my posts in this... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, if i'm angry at anything, it's your support of police arresting a man in his own home -- especially when there is a 100% chance than either the police OR the person who called them LIED. - Karim
gee Sean, thanks for the "leeway." :-D how exactly am i not thinking clearly, in your opinion? - Karim
Sean, if you are a cop walking uninvited into someone's home, and the man who lives there requests that you identify yourself, you're supposed to do that too. is your point that disagreeing with the police in your home predictably results in arrest, or that it *deserves* arrest? or does it deserve arrest only if you're black? :-D - Karim
wait, let me guess -- you have "no opinion" on whether it's a good thing for the police to arrest people in their own homes, because "all the facts aren't in?" :-D - Karim
Karim -- we are so far from having a rational conversation on this subject that I don't feel motivated to rehash all the distortions you have posted on my posts. You are not accurately paraphrasing my posts or points, and I don't have the time or energy to keep correcting all your errors. I never came close to saying that I support the police arresting "minorities in their own homes." The charge on your part is completely off the wall. - Sean McBride
ok, so you're saying the arrest was WRONG then? because quite a few comments ago i kept asking you if it was a wrongful arrest and you had no opinion on the subject. - Karim
Gates' arrest was either wrong or it wasn't. you haven't said it was wrong. you said it was a "bad idea," then you backpedaled and said it was bad only because it "distracted" the country from more important things. so you have yet to go on the record and say, point blank, the arrest was wrong. without saying that, and with your unwavering support of Crowley, it only seems logical to conclude you think the arrest of Gates was justified. - Karim
i'm just trying to determine whether you support the arrest of innocent people in their own homes on general principle, or whether your rule applies only to uppity black people in particular. lol - Karim
Karim -- you are still not even close to accurately summarizing the statements I made previously. When you succeed in doing so, I'll respond. - Sean McBride
how am i incorrectly summarizing? i'm not trying to make you look like more of a moron than you already appear :-D you have repeatedly supported Crowley, you have said more than once that it was reasonable to expect Gates would be arrested, you have said the arrest of Gates was bad only because it was a distraction from health care -- so what am i getting wrong, here? you support the arrest, do you not? or is that too tricky a question? - Karim
Lucia Whalen's attorney, Wendy Murphy: "Gates, Crowley and Obama have “special training” in race relations and still overreacted, said Whalen’s lawyer, Wendy Murphy, today at the news conference. Whalen, who Murphy said is the only person who acted appropriately in the controversy, also is the only one not going to the White House for beer." (Harvard’s Gates 911 Caller Says She Would Do It Again http://www.bloomberg.com/apps...) - Sean McBride
oh snap, another non sequitur? i guess that was easier than saying "Gates shouldn't have been arrested." you probably choked on the words, huh? :-D - Karim
Karim -- you are still not remotely close to accurately paraphrasing my previous comments. You are much too excited about this topic to pursue a rational discussion about it. I suggest you follow the example of Obama and Gates and calm down. If you continue to be personally abusive (you just called me a moron), I am going to block you. - Sean McBride
dude feel free to block away. i didn't call you a moron -- i said i didn't make you look MORE like a moron than you already appear. maybe you can't parse the difference, but that's probably because you're too emotionally invested in the topic and aren't thinking clearly. ;-) - Karim
Karim -- presently I have only one person on my block list -- I am usually very patient in dealing with people who disagree with me. Do you want me to block you? I don't want to do so, but perhaps that would be the right thing to do. I enjoy disagreements that produce rational debate. But when parties to debates systematically distort the positions of their opponents and don't listen,... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, don't ask *me* whether you should block *me.* do whatever the hell you want to do. i'm not intentionally trying to misrepresent you. it appears to me from your comments in this thread that you *support* the arrest of Gates, and when i've asked you very simply, yes or no, do you, you have refused to answer. if that makes me blockworthy then block away! :-D - Karim
I DON"T support the arrest of Gates, and never said I did, In fact, I said I opposed it. What I wondered was to what degree Gates' language may have contributed to Crowley's belief (and that of his fellow non-white officers) that he was within legal bounds in exercising discretionary judgment in arresting Gates for disorderly conduct. We will never know for sure just how abusive the... more... - Sean McBride
you have repeatedly said how the arrest of Gates was predictable while simultaneously refusing to say it was wrong -- remember how you changed your mind about it being a "bad idea?" -- and frankly it seems like hairsplitting to say you don't know to what degree Gates' language made him *deserve* being arrested. what, in your opinion, can an old man say from the front porch of his own... more... - Karim
the point is not that we'll never know *how* abusive the language was because it wasn't captured on tape. the point is that you seem to think there is SOME language that an elderly Harvard professor knows how to use on the front porch of his own home (after he has been mistaken for a burglar and is legitimately upset) that *justifies* his being arrested and thrown in jail. have i summarized your point of view correctly or not? - Karim
once it became clear that Gates was the legal occupant of the home, that should have been it. whatever he yelled from the foyer, whatever he yelled from the porch, Crowley should have gotten in the police car and left. end of story. what could Gates *possibly* say that justifies Crowley turning around and hauling him off to jail? - Karim
Crowley's police report says seven people appeared surprised or startled at Gates yelling from his porch. Does that justify dragging him off to jail? Second point: why was the crowd there in the first place? Because *Crowley* told the dispatcher to keep the *police cars coming.* So the "crowd" of 7 people who were "startled" at the angry old man were probably only there because they were rubbernecking the scene of half a dozen cop cars that Crowley was responsible for summoning! - Karim
Karim -- you just demonstrated once again that you are unable to paraphrase my comments. You're arguing with straw men. What I am clearly saying is this: the world is more complicated than being right or wrong; often being smart or stupid is more consequential than being right or wrong. Verbally attacking cops is usually not smart and may often lead to unhappy consequences, whether... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, do you really believe that the turmoil this incident provoked didn't exist beforehand? That race relations, particularly between law enforcement and people of color, were fine before Crowley stepped through Gates' door? And that Obama and Gates can actually do anything to quell what's been stirred up? I really fail to see the damage it has done to Obama. The people who are most... more... - Victor Ganata
What damage has been done to gates btw - Richard Lawler
Well, people who didn't really like Gates before have said things like he should have remembered the 'black tax'... - Andrew C (✔)
Victor -- why do you think that both Obama and Gates suddenly reversed themselves on this issue? What were their political calculations? - Sean McBride
Now yet another black leader, Eric Holder, has weighed in and suggests that both Gates and Crowley may have made misjudgments (the same argument made by Obama and Colin Powell). http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009... (I don't endorse this website, by the way -- but the video link is solid.) - Sean McBride
"A new national poll released this afternoon says that more Americans believe Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is at fault for the face-off in his home that led to his arrest than Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley, the white officer who handcuffed him. According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents named Gates when asked who they felt was more... more... - Sean McBride
Victor -- I think the sentiments discovered in the above poll help explain the sudden reversal of Obama and Gates on this issue. Does that make sense? More: "But the poll suggests there is a wide racial divide on the incident. Among African-Americans, only 4 percent said Gates was more at fault versus 30 percent who blamed Crowley. Among whites, in contrast, 32 percent blamed Gates more, while only 7 percent blamed Crowley." - Sean McBride
"Gates and Crowley Update: 911 Caller Chokes Up; Crowley Was Star Student at Simon Wiesenthal Center" http://blogs.wsj.com/speakea... "In 2007, Crowley attended a three-day program for police officers on racial profiling at the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. He... more... - Sean McBride
Continued: "Sunny Lee-Goodman, director of the “Tools for Tolerance” law enforcement program at the Museum of Tolerance, says attendees of the “Perspectives on Profiling” program explore the perils of racial profiling. Using interactive exhibits at the museum, officers study both the Holocaust and the civil-rights movement in America. Officers also engage in soul-searching about their... more... - Sean McBride
"Poll: Obama mishandled comments on race" http://www.google.com/hostedn... "The poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center found that 41 percent disapproved of Obama's handling of the Gates arrest, compared with 29 percent who approved. The poll also found the incident and Obama's reaction saturated the public consciousness. As... more... - Sean McBride
More: "The poll was conducted Wednesday to Sunday last week. Among those interviewed on Wednesday and Thursday, 53 percent of whites approved of Obama's job performance. This slipped to 46 percent among whites interviewed Friday through Sunday as the Gates story played out." - Sean McBride
Victor: according to the Pew Research Center poll just cited, Obama lost 7 points in his approval rating among whites last weekend because of the way he handled the Gates case. During the campaign, Obama worked hard to steer clear of divisive racial politics and to present himself as a post-racial president, as a leader focused on the American people as a whole across all racial and... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, if you look at Obama's statement, he steps back a tad, but doesn't really reverse himself. The only difference is that he regrets using the word "stupidly" and he adds that maybe Gates overreacted. Is anyone really surprised that a lot of white people reacted negatively to Obama's position? - Victor Ganata
Victor -- if this incident had obviously been a racist incident, with no ambiguities, white opinion would have been solidly behind Gates and Obama. One has to pick one's symbolic events and causes with care in this arena. - Sean McBride
Sean, well, we'll just have to disagree. I'm with Obama when he says that this can be a teachable moment. It's really these ambiguous events that throw a light upon the convoluted landscape of race relations in this country. I don't think we really learn anything from obvious racism other than the fact that, yes, it does exist. I really think the dialog that his incident sparked about... more... - Victor Ganata
@Sean That's always been my contention. I heard again last night on TV that this would never have happened if Gates were white. I completely agree, but that doesn't automatically make Crowley the one who made it about race. If Gates were white, he wouldn't have been in Crowley's kitchen like he was. You might say, an unruly white professor would STILL have no been arrested, and I agree. But there's unruly, and there's unfairly charging a cop of racism. Anyway, Crowley was STILL wrong to arrest Gates. - Edward Zwart
I don't disagree with you Victor. Obama turning this into a teachable moment is great. But what's wrong with saying "Jesus, I can't believe I said they acted stupidly! That was stupid! But..." Because I agree the landscape is convoluted. I thought his message (last year) about understanding both perspectives, say white guilt alongside black fear (to simplify) was very clear. But he... more... - Edward Zwart
Victor -- I really like the way you handled your end of this conversation. You've left me with the thought that I need to think carefully about your point of view on this incident. (We already mostly agree about the issue in general -- problematic cop/minority relations in America.) - Sean McBride
for me, this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] was a 'whack-on-the-head' view of the whole incident. very different take on what was really going on here. - MikeAmundsen
"Black cop at Gates home regrets 'Uncle Tom' label http://www.google.com/hostedn... "A black sergeant who was at the home of Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. when he was arrested says he's been maligned as an "Uncle Tom" for supporting the actions of the white arresting officer. Cambridge Sgt. Leon Lashley gave a letter to Sgt.... more... - Sean McBride
I started this Crowley thread on July 23, when it appeared that Gates was completely in the right and that Crowley was a racist villain. By July 30, within seven days, Crowley was being hosted by Obama and Biden at the White House and offering a press conference to the entire world that was covered by the mainstream media in real time. All the polls indicate that Obama badly blundered... more... - Sean McBride
"We hit it off right from the beginning. When he’s not arresting you, Sgt Crowley is a really likable guy." -- Prof. Henry Louis Gates Jr. - Sean McBride
Sean, I don't think it was ever about trying to figure who the racist villain was. The most common form of racism is subtle and entrenched in the culture, and it's all about the assumptions people make. For me, it's the split between whites and people-of-color in terms of how they viewed this incident that's telling. It re-emphasizes the fact that we do not live in a post-racial world... more... - Victor Ganata
Victor -- big picture strategic thinking (not who was right or wrong): where do you think this story will go from here? My prediction: Obama and Gates will want to make it go away entirely as soon as possible. What do you think? I also predict that Obama will steer clear of racial controversies in the future out of fear that they will disrupt the rest of his political agenda. - Sean McBride
And, as I've been saying from the beginning, what a shame it is that the opportunity was missed to recognize Gates's responsibility. ..to make the teachable moment about the perils of crying wolf. - Edward Zwart
Obama should be feeling exceptionally sensitive and outraged about false accusations of bigotry these days: charges of antisemitism continue to be hurled at him in torrents from pro-Israel activists (along with attacks from that same camp which are undeniably and crudely racist -- see, for instance, Ethan Bronner's recent article in the New York Times on the subject). - Sean McBride
My main lesson learned from the Gates/Crowley fiasco: ethnic and racial politics, and identity politics in general, is often a tremendous waste of time and energy. Identity politics didn't create the Internet and won't generate other world revolutionary ideas based on science, technology and creative entrepreneurialism. Really smart people do not get mired down in identity politics -- they have more interesting ideas on their mind. - Sean McBride
Sean, well some people don't have the luxury of white privilege. Among a lot of people of color in America, dealing with identity is often the first necessary step to political empowerment. - Victor Ganata
Here is an example of what I am talking about. A new semantic search engine, Yebol http://yebol.com, was just launched that I think is superior to Google and Bing. Bio of the founder: "Yebol was founded by Hongfeng Yin, Ph.D., former Yahoo engineer, who has more than 20 years research and development experience on artificial intelligence, pattern recognition, data mining and search." Is Yin bogged down in Chinese identity politics? I strongly doubt it. - Sean McBride
That said, ethnic identity politics would be unnecessary if American history did a better job of including the narratives of people of color. The idea is that you can't really know where you're going if you don't know where you've been. The question of identity is often the first thing that sparks a young person of color into starting to question how the world works. Of course, some people are just naturally curious and questioning, so they don't need this kind of wake-up call. - Victor Ganata
And it all depends on what you mean by "bogged down." I don't know one way or another, but if Yin happens to be proud of his Chinese heritage, is that necessarily a detriment? - Victor Ganata
Victor -- it seems to me that identity in contemporary American culture is incredibly fluid, unstable and complex, and based more on rapidly evolving meritocratic cultures than on ethnicity, race or religion. If one is looking too much to the past for identity, one will quicky fall behind in dealing with the realities of the present. That kind of baggage slows one down more than it empowers and enables one. - Sean McBride
It's fine to be proud of one's heritage -- but to organize one's mental and emotional life around one's identity conflicts is enervating and crippling. It's not a creative or productive activity, and tends to generate a great deal of useless or destructive friction. - Sean McBride
If you say so, Sean. That's simply not been my experience. I've seen too many students of color who have been inspired to political activism, the pursuit of higher education, and careers in academia, who otherwise would've been apathetic and been content to be mere consumer citizens. - Victor Ganata
Fostering a culture of academic achievement in households, regardless of their ethnicity, race or religion, is probably more effective in promoting success than focusing on identity politics. Barack Obama has alluded to this principle quite a few times. (Jews have been especially fortunate in this department: their identity culture (ethnic and religious) has always highly prized... more... - Sean McBride
And when the emphasis on academic achievement is missing in the household, or if the household is too dysfunctional to actually pass on values? Are the people in this household then to be condemn to powerlessness and ignorance? I agree that fashioning a career solely based on identity politics is probably not very constructive, but identity politics clearly has its uses. To argue that Obama never dealt with identity politics mischaracterizes the path he took. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- most people understand that white Europeans inflicted enormous damage on African-American culture in the United States, and that large-scale reparations (in every sense) have been due and haven't been fully paid off yet. But taking the larger strategic view, one sees a new dynamic coming into play: with the economic downturn (and perhaps looming economic disaster), Americans... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, you are dead wrong. And in this particular case it is the African-Americans who are behaving as bigots and a racists – and I don't just mean Professor Gates. >< - David C. Cooper
Victor -- identity politics has played an important role in Obama's career, but it seems to me that with each passing year his outlook has become increasingly universalist. This is a psychological process that many people undergo when they have rich encounters with elite universities comprised of the most interesting minds from every ethnic, racial, religious, social and national group... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, yeah, as you said, it's not something Obama dwells on, but it's clear it has shaped his mindset. And the psychological process you describe doesn't apply to everyone. I'm not even sure it necessarily applies to Obama. A lot of people of color actually become exposed to identity politics for the very first time when they start going to university. - Victor Ganata
http://digg.com/d3z1jx ""Inkwell Foundation, a charity headed by star Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. is filing an amended 2007 report to the Internal Revenue Service because $11,000 it paid to foundation officers as compensation was mischaracterized as being for research grants. Questions about Inkwell Foundation emerged over the weekend, part of a tsunami of... more... - NoahDavidSimon
Sean, you said i didn't correctly paraphrase what you said, but you didn't say how i was wrong. if you think Gates' arrest was justified, please tell me what it was possible for him to say that made him *deserve* to be arrested. you don't need to reiterate the police's right to arrest people on trumped up charges, and you don't need to play Blame The Victim. - Karim
Karim -- the question, for me, is not whether the arrest was "justified" or "right"; the question is whether the arrest was sufficiently within the realm of normal American police behavior to be considered not too controversial by a critical mass of Americans. If Crowley's behavior had been sufficiently egregious or outrageous, he wouldn't have been invited to the White House. That was... more... - Sean McBride
you keep saying that it's *expected* that arguing with cops will result in arrest, even if the argument is legal. it's tantamount to saying "well it looked like the black man was reaching for a gun, so it's *expected* that the police would shoot him, even if he was only reaching for the ID in his wallet." why do you have to be an apologist for the abuse of power? - Karim
are your ethics really decided by poll numbers, Sean? surely you can't be making that argument. - Karim
Sean, IMO rightness is way more important than what is currently considered acceptable by Americans. An unsettlingly high number of Americans are OK with torture, with the current use of tasers as general-purpose police timesavers, etc. And I don't care as much about what's a political winner as much as I care about the ethics and morality of these things. - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, you can't separate the ethical and legal issues from the political ones. i keep asking whether something was right or wrong and you keep telling me about how it was bad politically. - Karim
I'm not an apologist for the abuse of power. I've posted hundreds of comments on Friendfeed strongly objecting to the abuse of power under the Bush/Cheney administration. But the Gates/Crowley situation is so murky from an ethical/legal standpoint that even the Glenn Greenwalds (militant civil libertarians) haven't mustered up much moral outrage about the arrest. - Sean McBride
Sean, why do you have to poll the militant civil libertarians in order to have an opinion on whether a man being arrested in his own home is right or wrong? EDIT: you're acting as if the political effects of the issue are actually *more important* than the ethics. is that what you believe, or am i misunderstanding you? - Karim
Karim -- I've already expressed my opinion repeatedly: I think the arrest was wrong. But it wasn't wrong enough from the standpoint of public opinion to turn Gates into a victim and Crowley into a villain. - Sean McBride
In this case, the politics of the situation is far more important than the ethics -- obviously, that is the judgment that Obama and Gates came to. If you've got a problem with the outcome of this story, take it up with Obama and Gates. They (unlike me) have had the power to push this story in any direction they wished. - Sean McBride
Sean, if the arrest was *wrong,* then why do you repeatedly make arguments that suggest otherwise -- that other police stuck up for Crowley (implying it wasn't wrong), that the arrest was to be expected (implying it wasn't wrong), that poll numbers show nobody's worked up about how wrong it was (implying it wasn't wrong), etc. ad nauseam. - Karim
ok, please explain to me how the politics of the situation is more important than the ethics, or how Obama or Gates came anywhere *near* to saying words to that effect. EDIT: in my admittedly possibly naive point of view, the arrest was either right or wrong ethically, and the politics *follow* from that -- not the other way around. - Karim
Karim -- I've already answered these questions you are asking several times. See my previous posts in this thread. - Sean McBride
no, sorry, i've read your posts, and i see NOWHERE where Obama and Gates said that the politics of the situation was more important than the ethics -- nor do i see you saying that in so many words. so go back and see YOUR OWN previous posts. - Karim
Sean, in my opinion, your stance - at least as conveyed by your words here - has morphed over time. Maybe try copying out this whole thread, search-and-replacing your name with someone else's, and reread it as if someone else wrote your words? - Andrew C (✔)
you know i thought *i* was cynical, but how cold do you have to be to say "who cares if it was right or wrong, how did it affect the poll numbers?" - Karim
Quote of the Day: "He's actually right. It is teachable. Here's the lesson: Shut up." -- Rudy Giuliani, in an interview on Fox News, on what President Obama should learn from getting involved in the Gates-Crowley dispute. http://politicalwire.com/archive... - Sean McBride
+1 Andrew. Sean said twice the arrest was a "bad idea" (in response to the question of whether it was a lawful or proper arrest) -- and then his opinion morphed to the fact that it was only a bad idea *politically.* - Karim
Noah -- as far as financial scandals go, that seems like a relatively trivial one. - Sean McBride
Sean, you saying "It's Giuliani time" now a la the police officers who sodomized Abner Louima? " "There's something very deeply pathological about Rudy's humanity," Crew says. "He was barren, completely emotionally barren, on the issue of race." -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id... - Karim
Andrew -- my views on everything are always morphing over time, as I acquire new information. Don't yours? If you've got a problem with the outcome of the Gates/Crowley affair, take it up with Obama and Gates -- they have decided to withdraw from any further conflict over the story and to make nice. No more threats of lawsuits; no more harsh words; instead, many words of praise for Crowley. Be morally outraged at them, if you must be morally outraged. - Sean McBride
Giuliani is usually wrong, in my opinion, but he sure got this right. - Sean McBride
so a man who has been described as "deeply pathological," whose name is associated with police abuse, who is "emotionally barren" on the issue of race, and who YOU describe as "usually wrong" -- in this case he's right because he AGREES with you, huh? :-D - Karim
Funny how your 'new information' is only the information that backs you up - the new information about the police report discrepancies didn't modify your views one whit. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- why aren't you aiming your anger at Obama and Gates? I don't get it. - Sean McBride
Because _the politics of the situation are not my main concern_. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- you seem to be morally outraged at people (like myself) who aren't more morally outraged about the Gates controversy than Gates himself. Can you explain that? Are you morally outraged at Gates for not being sufficiently morally outraged? Are you morally outraged at Obama, who is now essentially the stage director of this narrative and who is calling the shots? - Sean McBride
I see no reason why I can't have moral outrage over an arrest so stupid (yeah, I said it) the prosecutor nolle prosse'd it before ever getting to court, nor over a police report that _even if fully honest_ pretty clearly shows the cop baited the homeowner into a vaguely arrestable situation. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- I asked you why your moral outrage greatly exceeds that of Gates and Obama, and why you aren't harshly criticizing them for throwing Crowley kisses over the last week. - Sean McBride
Whereas you've gone from "Crowley's not a racist" to "the facts will all land behind Crowley" to "the comments I've skimmed lean one way" to "If Obama's OK with it, then everyone else should be" (a stance you yourself definitely don't take in certain foreign policy issues). - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, I haven't seen why I should not be outraged, and you haven't presented a reason (besides an implied Argument From Authority) either. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- Gates himself, who is one of only two people on the planet who know what really went on between him and Crowley, is speaking kind and conciliatory words to Crowley. Explain to me why I should be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates, and how I could do so without looking like a fool. - Sean McBride
So if only two people on the planet know what really went on, why were you going on earlier about all the other witness testimony? At _every_ turn, you have sought to minimize Crowley's wrong. That is my point. I don't think Crowley is 100% villain, but your take on the whole thing has been _remarkably_ biased. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew: you keep ducking the question: why are you much more excited about the offense to Gates than Gates himself? How do you explain the discrepancy here? - Sean McBride
As I've been trying to explain for over a week now, another of my points -- one you have consistently ducked throughout this thread, speaking of "ducking" -- has been that the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work. You've brought up a bunch of quotes without (at the time) further comment all of which implied Gates was in the wrong for 'forgetting the "black tax"', etc. - Andrew C (✔)
Still no answer: why aren't you angry at Obama and Gates for treating Crowley in such a conciliatory and respectful way, while expressing none of your moral outrage? Why are you more morally outraged about Gates' situation than Gates himself? Weird.... - Sean McBride
Sean, no weirder than YOUR ducking. http://www.politicsforum.org/images... - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew: it is not a filibuster to keep asking a question which goes to the heart of this affair: why should we be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates himself? Than Obama? You must have reasons that sound reasonable to yourself that answer this question: what are they? Think about it. - Sean McBride
OK, will do. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew -- thanks. I am honestly curious about the line of thinking that supports that position. Maybe there are good reasons that I haven't thought of yet and that you will come up with. - Sean McBride
Sean, we have no idea what's going on in Obama's and Gates' heads right now. For all we know, Gates' position may not have changed at all, it's just that the turn of events has made it all but impossible to feasibly pursue legal action without getting attacked for it, so maybe he's just keeping quiet. And I think you've been really selective about what you're reading. There are plenty of people who are still quite outraged at the fact that a man got arrested in his own house for no good reason. - Victor Ganata
This is how I would answer the question that I asked Andrew: perhaps Gates and Obama have felt pressured and intimidated to conceal their own honest moral outrage by the intensity of the racism-tinged reaction to the Gates affair from so many Americans. They are retreating from further confrontation from fear of suffering a barrage of attacks that are motivated in many instances by... more... - Sean McBride
i guess siding with someone you describe as "usually wrong" didn't set off any warning bells, eh Sean? - Karim
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. - Sean McBride
Andrew is also correct is pointing out that "the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work." i'm guessing Sean is only concerned with the political consequences of innocent people being arrested in their own homes and not so much with the morality of it. - Karim
Karim -- who are your favorite political bloggers and pundits? Who do you read on a regular basis? - Sean McBride
"Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. has sent flowers to the woman who unwittingly sparked a national debate on race by calling police to report what she thought might be a break-in at Gates' home. Lucia Whalen's lawyer Wendy Murphy declined to say what was in the note that accompanied the flowers, but described them as "a gesture of gratitude."" http://www.freep.com/article... Nicely done. - Sean McBride
i don't visit a lot of political sites, Sean. occasionally i'll go to cqpolitics.com, and back during the presidential campaign last year i was a fan of Nate Silver and fivethirtyeight.com. why do you ask? - Karim
Sean it sounds like Gates is buying Whalen's story (which conflicts with Crowley's story). - Karim
So the only political analyst that comes to mind is Nate Silver? I am just trying to get a sense of where you are coming politically and your depth of political knowledge. - Sean McBride
Sean was i confused for thinking you were politically liberal? just recently you quoted Giuliani on *Fox News* and now you are quoting Free Republic, so you have me kind of wondering. :-D - Karim
Sean, maybe part of our disconnect is that you are seeing this as some major *political* issue, the biggest mistake of Obama's presidency, etc., when i think it's more of an ethical issue -- i.e. should Gates have been arrested. i find it curious that you are reluctant to even weigh in on the ethical aspect but you take great pride in your political prognostication. - Karim
Karim: some sources I follow: Alternet, Andrew Sullivan (Daily Dish), Antiwar.com, Common Dreams, Consortiumnews, Counterpunch, Democracy Now!, Dissident Voice, Glenn Greenwald (Unclaimed Territory), GlobalResearch, Haaretz, Information Clearing House, Jim Lobe (LobeLog), Juan Cole (Informed Comment), OpEdNews, Philip Weiss (Mondoweiss), Stephen M. Walt, The Nation, Think Progress,... more... - Sean McBride
Karim -- I'm a progressive libertarian, and detest Fox News and Free Republic. But I have very little sympathy for identity politics of any kind, which bores me to tears when it is not scaring me. I suspect that that issue is at the root of the differences between me and you and Andrew over the Gates fiasco. You and Andrew are heavily into identity politics. - Sean McBride
see, i don't see it as primarily a political issue -- any more than any other incident in which a white cop arrests a black man for dubious cause, with a police report that's contradicted by eyewitnesses. the novelty is the fame of the black man who was arrested. the fact that Obama commented on it didn't seem unnatural to me -- Gates was his friend, and Obama has a history of being against racial profiling. - Karim
you seem to be using the interest of *political* pundits in this issue as some sort of bellwether for the *ethics* of the situation -- like, if Democracy Now! has nothing to say about it, that must mean it's ok or something. that's kind of the impression i got from you -- that you were incapable of deciding for yourself whether this was right or wrong, that you needed the consensus of the political interwebs or whatever to tell you whether it was ok for an old man to be arrested in his own home. - Karim
A distaste for "identity politics" shouldn't trump the libertarian concerns over being arrested on trumped-up charges of 'disorderly conduct', IMO. - Andrew C (✔)
Sean, i don't even know what "identify politics" means, so i have no response to your accusation that i'm into heavily into it. what i know is that people should not be arrested just for being "uncooperative" with the police in their own homes. yes we all know it happens, or happened in this case, but i don't see how you reconcile your claim to be any flavor of libertarian while essentially serving as an apologist for the police in this case. - Karim
23 break-ins in Gates' neighborhood so far this year, including a recent attempted break-in at the Gates' residence, offend my libertarian sensibilities more than Crowley's well-intentioned effort to investigate a reported possible break-in in progress. Gates now seems to appreciate this angle on story -- he just sent flowers and a thank-you note to Lucia Whalen, the woman who phoned in... more... - Sean McBride
To reiterate and reemphasize: there is currently an issue in play regarding racism in American political culture that merits close attention and discussion: the Birthers. The rights and wrongs couldn't be more clear. It's a solid issue to tee off on without quickly finding oneself in quicksand. (The Birther movement is overwhelmingly centered in the former Confederate South.) - Sean McBride
What I'm disappointed in is that the question of race has managed to become a smokescreen for the violation of civil rights. I guess it's just time for me to accept that we live in a country where it's totally OK for cops to arrest you in your own house even when you're not doing anything illegal. - Victor Ganata
Victor, thank you for saying that. I've been astounded that there has been NO objection from libertarians about the fact that this man was arrested in his own home after producing evidence of his residence. If you can't rant in your own home, where can you rant? (I know! The Internet! ;-)) - Karoli
@Victor, @Karoli: i posted this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] a while back to help spark talk about the role of police in US society as well as explore the notion that this incident was not at all about race, but about class. - MikeAmundsen
The full weirdness of the Gates/Crowley affair is difficult to digest: 1. Both Gates and Crowley are highly esteemed associates of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, an organization devoted to fighting bigoty and intolerance http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith... (Next we'll probably discover that they are Masonic brothers, in... more... - Sean McBride
I'm not even sure it's about class, although class probably insulated Gates from having to endure possibly worse abuse. I really just think it's about law enforcement abusing their powers, and how they've probably been emboldened by how in the last 8 years, we've given up a lot of our civil rights. I realize that abuse of power by cops isn't a new thing, but it just seems more egregious these days. - Victor Ganata
@Victor: i think it's possible that class plays into this in the following way: Gates perceives his class as quite high in the US (Harvard, Phd, author/pundit, pres is his pal). Crowley perceives his class has relatively lowly (working class stiff in a service biz where folks complain about his group [police] often). when they meet, Gates is intimidated by the gun and historical fears;... more... - MikeAmundsen
Perhaps, Mike. I have a hard time imagining when a cop would actually be intimidated by someone who is unarmed, unless it was a politician or someone who is immensely wealthy, and certainly only if they recognize them. But between Crowley and Gates, only one of those guys has the power to haul the other off to jail on whatever grounds they feel like, and only of those guys is licensed... more... - Victor Ganata
"Gates: Crowley And I May Go To Red Sox Game" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009... "Gates was mostly light-hearted during his speech and even poked fun at himself after a man in the crowd told him he admired his sense of humor. "I should have been funnier in the kitchen of my house on July 16," he said.... Gates called what happened to him... more... - Sean McBride
@Victor: i see your point completely. i am only attempting to look at this from a few other angles. i've had my own run-in w/ police. i recall the feelings i had at the time, standing there in front of my family. it was a minor incident, a mistake on the policeman's part and he was quick to recognize it and resolve the discrepancy. i can only imagine how things might have gone if that... more... - MikeAmundsen
Mike, yeah, my experience with the police is relatively limited, ranging from benign, to getting yelled at for trying to do the right thing, but that's another story. But, wow, those people you've seen berate/belittle cops must be either extremely brave, or extremely stupid. It can see how Gates' reaction can be interpreted multiple ways. On one hand, he may have thought his class... more... - Victor Ganata
A disturbing development, and proof (if any were needed) that racism is still an immense problem in American society: "Harvard tells Gates to consider moving after death threats" http://rawstory.com/08... Any thoughts on what should be the legal penalties for making threats of this nature? Certainly they qualify as hate crimes of some kind. - Sean McBride
"I can only imagine the producers’ surprise when I stated that with America being far and away the world leader in per capita incarceration of its own citizens, we are living in a police state. " [http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...] - MikeAmundsen
"Poll: Did Obama's reaction to Gates arrest hurt him?" http://www.cnn.com/2009... "A new national poll indicates that white and black Americans don't see eye to eye on last month's arrest of Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates. The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Tuesday also suggests a racial divide over... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Obama's Image Stained Over Gates Controversy : NPR - http://www.npr.org/templat...
"President Obama wanted to stay on message about health care this week, but he made an extraordinary appearance in the White House briefing room yesterday to say that he had called Sgt. James Crowley, the Cambridge, Mass., policeman who had arrested Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. for disorderly conduct. Obama said he told Sgt. Crowley he did not mean to malign him when he said the Cambridge police had "acted stupidly." NPR news analyst Juan Williams tells host Scott Simon that Obama's handling of the controversy has hurt him in the eyes of the nation." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
In deciding whether this controversy over Henry Gates has damaged Obama politically, one needs to set aside one's views about which party was in the wrong -- Gates or Crowley. The bigger question is whether the story has inflicted major damage on Obama's public image and his political program (including health care). My read is that it has. Obama should have stayed completely above the... more... - Sean McBride
I think many people initially tried to jam the story into the evil racist cops meme without carefully looking at all the facts. Even Obama fell into that trap. The facts contradict that interpretation, and more facts are going to emerge from reliable eyewitnesses in the coming days that even further undercut that theme. This is by far the biggest political slip-up that I have seen the... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, what did you think of that samefacts.com analysis of the police report? - Andrew C (✔) from Android
Andrew -- are you referring to the entry which suggested that Gates may have deliberately goaded Crowley into arresting him with the objective of creating a teachable moment? Interesting theory -- it could even be true (although the outbursts of anger from both sides strike me as having been spontaneous). - Sean McBride
If someone acts stupidly, I will probably say he did. It's not the same thing as saying someone is stupid. It's decrying the action, not the individual. - MiniMage
Andrew: I just read the item. Gates has a big problem: from what I am hearing, *all* the eyewitness testimony and tapes will support Crowley's account; none of it will support Gates. That is probably why Gates is now eager to move on regarding this incident. He totally lost his shit over a reasonable and honorable effort to investigate a possible break-in in progress at his house, and... more... - Sean McBride
Yes, Gates is getting the message: "I told the president that my principal regret was that all of the attention paid to his deeply supportive remarks during his press conference had distracted attention from his health care initiative," Gates said. http://www.mymotherlode.com/news... (Exactly the point I emphasized here this morning.) - Sean McBride
Where are you hearing this stuff, then? If all the testimony supports Crowley, why did the prosecutor drop charges before even going to a preliminary hearing? - Andrew C (✔)
And to be honest, I actually wondered if Obama used the Gates comments to distract the media from the health care story... - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew: have you noticed that sympathy for Gates within the Harvard community itself seems to be curiously tepid? -- one isn't seeing an outpouring of moral outrage about the alleged racism in this incident. One possible explanation: most residents of the Cambridge area (including Harvard professors and employees) are in favor of an aggressive police response to reports of suspected break-ins. It's a serious issue in that neck of the woods. No wonder Gates wants to "move on." - Sean McBride
What he (Gates) did was apply racial profiling against James Crowley from the very instant that Crowley appeared at his door. Unfortunately for Gates, he picked the wrong guy to racially profile, and now he has created major political problems for Barack Obama. Obama himself has already admitted that he made a huge mistake in his initial comment on the Gates incident: it is really extraordinary to see a president backtrack in such a public way on a story of this kind. - Sean McBride
Sean, I haven't noticed that, because I don't care about what the Harvard community thinks about anything. - Andrew C (✔)
"Henry Louis Gates Jr. Caller Lucia Whalen Never Mentioned Race": "In an interesting development in the arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. over a week ago, the person who called in Gates for breaking into his own house says she didn't cite Gates' race when calling in the potential crime. Caller Lucia Whalen has "worked in Cambridge for more than 15 years, about 100 yards from where Mr.... more... - Sean McBride
Is calling this a 'losing issue' for one side or the other "judging this incident"? I'm so confused! - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew: look at the headline at the head of this thread: "Obama's Image Stained Over Gates Controversy" -- it's from one of the foremost citadels of liberalism in America, NPR. In his worst nightmares, I doubt that Gates would have ever expected to see that question being asked on NPR. This has been a losing issue for Obama and Gates. (Obama's approval ratings noticeably dropped... more... - Sean McBride
"the foremost citadels of liberalism in America, NPR" - just quoted so I could look at it again. - Andrew C (✔)
NPR is a citadel of liberalism? On what planet? - Steve Lowe
A citadel of liberalism in ancient days long past, but what passes for liberalism these days. - Sean McBride
The fact that we're all talking about racial profiling, police brutality, and African-Amercan male experience in America is the happy result of this. For Gates, who has studied it all his life, and for Obama, who it is also a prime example of the successes. Sean, you just don't understand it's a reality for many non-white men. How can you say it's not? You still haven't answered this... more... - anna sauce
... unless you have some political agenda against Obama (waits for deluge) - anna sauce
Anna -- you should review my posts on Friendfeed -- I strongly supported Obama both against Hillary Clinton and John McCain. And I am fully aware of police abuse against minorities, and have strongly spoken out against it on many occasions. But not every police case involving minorities is a product of racial profiling. One needs to look at all the facts in each individual case to come to a fair conclusion. - Sean McBride
Gates, by the way, is more privileged than most whites, most of whom do not own summer homes on Martha's Vineyard or enjoy professorships at Harvard University. - Sean McBride
@SB: i suspect quite a bit of Gate's outrage over the whole incident was due more to his privileged status than his race. i.e. i think he was really mad this lousy wanna-be-cop was tromping around in his fancy house giving him a lot of lip. - MikeAmundsen
This incident definitely stained Obama's image...in the eyes of those who don't like him anyway. I do agree that the incident did move the focus away from healthcare, though. It doesn't even matter if the incident was race-motivated or not. The point is that the man was arrested at his house even after showing that it was his house. Unless he charged the cops or drew a weapon, I see no justification for that. - Rahsheen
Sean, thanks so much for posting that. I was afraid you were missing the bigger stuff going on around this case. - anna sauce
it seemed clear to me (watching the presser) that Obama made sure to call on this last person to get in a 'Gates' question. he even had to do a quick shuffle of another questioner (due to some foul up on the call list) to make sure this Gates question was the _last_ one before he left the podium. - MikeAmundsen
Yeah they usually do that when they know an issue is going to result in a flood of questions. - anna sauce
Mike -- that's the honest impression of many people all across the political spectrum, including quite a few Obama supporters. - Sean McBride
Mike, I disagree. I think Gates' response was due to the fact that it was egregious, and he is not humbled by the police, and he knows his rights, and in his position he can handle all of hte shit thrown at him. Because he's studied this kind of thing *all his life*. I studied him in college, 1990-4, when he was mid-career publishing books on race relations in the US and beyond. He's... more... - anna sauce
in so much as he had control of the dialogue, he didn't have control of the timing. the police did, though, which is kind of interesting. And Rah, +1. - anna sauce
Almost every cop interviewed has said, "good cops specialize in not losing ground, by not letting the situation escalate." - anna sauce
Seriously?!? Juan Williams?!? The guy who has a long-standing contract with Fox News?!? You'll have to forgive me if I don't take this guy too seriously. - Victor Ganata
Obama's problem is that this issue is stuck between 3 of his Special Interest Groups. The minority SIG, the academic SIG, and the union (police) SIG. - Robert Hafer from iPhone
any time the president uses the word "stupid" in a new conf, it's gonna be a big deal. - MikeAmundsen
@anna: i see your point. i don't mean to down-play racial tones in this altercation at all. i have no doubt that Gates is very sensitive to race in this context. i meant to point out that Gates' reaction looks very much like how any person of high social stature might treat a campus policeman who is in his own house for the wrong reason. - MikeAmundsen
Robert - I have to laugh at the idea of academics being a SIG that any politician ever takes seriously. I'm in academia, and we are always cast as clueless, not living in the real world, over-privileged (tell that to a community college instructor on an adjunct contract), snobbish, etc. The list could go on and on. People think we make more than we do (really, think about the number of... more... - Katy S
I guess the last eight years really have changed us. I never really thought it would be generally acceptable to have to cower in fear at the authorities while in your own house. - Victor Ganata
Victor -- why is there any need to cower in fear in an incident of this kind, in which a cop comes to your residence to investigate a possible break-in in progress? You treat the cop respectfully, you communicate with him or her, you mutually figure out what is going on, and you cheerfully provide all the necessary ID which proves your identity. You part on perhaps a humorous note, with... more... - Sean McBride
Sean - you really do have trouble imagining a world-view outside of your own, don't you. You refuse to really listen to what people here are trying to tell you. It demonstrates a complete lack of empathy. - Katy S
Katy -- generally when I have an intellectual disagreement with someone, I don't accuse them of a lack of empathy, or expect them to agree with me. Intellectual disagreements are normal, a basic feature of reality. And in the real world, most people don't become hysterical when a cop comes to investigate a possible reported break-in at their residence. They can handle the situation reasonably. Some people can't. - Sean McBride
Sean - you certainly do seem to expect people to agree with you. In almost every post you discount what others say. That demonstrates an inflexible mind, if nothing else. I teach rhetoric and argumentation. I'm very aware of the way argument works. By claiming that this reaction is "hysterical", you've managed to add sexism to your methods as well. Good job! A woman alone in a house (or... more... - Katy S
Sean - In the real world, there are abusive police officers. There are people who masquerade as police officers and harm others. When I was in undergrad, there was a guy with a fake uniform and his own set of flashing lights who was pulling women over on the interstate and sexually assaulting them. Even the real police told us to never pull over in a deserted place - instead, we were... more... - Katy S
And by the way, if you don't see the place of pathos in argumentation, you might want to read some Aristotle or some Cicero. - Katy S
My "hysterical" remark was directed at Gates, not you. There are special issues for women in interactions with cops, especially single women whose residences are being entered by single male cops. I think I am fully sensitive to that issue. - Sean McBride
But, why is that a "special issue" and the history of abusive interactions between black men and police officers not one? - Katy S
Katy -- I've read much of Aristotle and Cicero in the original Greek and Latin. I find it amusing that you sometimes lecture others here in an academic and condescending way, somewhat like Barack Obama in fact, without knowing the academic backgrounds of those you are addressing. - Sean McBride
All the abuse in this interaction, Katy, was coming from Gates, not Crowley. You've got it backwards in this case. - Sean McBride
"You don't act like a mental case." I am totally loving this non-rush-to-judgment. (Gates has said, BTW, that he was ill at the time, including having a letter from the doctor and thus physically could not have raised his voice that much...) - Andrew C (✔)
there's nothing in the police report saying Gates became "hysterical," Sean, that's YOUR word. apparently if some guy with a gun walks into your house and says "Ihre Papiere, bitte" while refusing to identify himself, you're supposed to not have any problems with that. - Karim
Gates in the report, and the Gates observed by other cops on the scene, comes across as a person seriously out of control, Karim -- and extremely abusive. - Sean McBride
Sean - I only call people out when they demonstrate the inability to argue in "good faith" or are being completely illogical or are treating others poorly (typically while engaging in the aforementioned activities). Your tone when responding to others has been very dismissive. I guess I got tired of it. And I see that you really do have a problem with academics, don't you. Barack Obama is seen as condescending, Gates seems to be a problem figure for you, and now me. Interesting. - Katy S
again, Sean, "seriously out of control," "extremely abusive," these are YOUR unsupported characterizations and not phrases used in the police report. the police report says "uncooperative" and "tumultuous," which it was perfectly legal for him to be in HIS OWN DAMN HOUSE. - Karim
And, if you don't like it when I've mentioned credentials or provided evidence for why I might just know what I am talking about, consider this: I live in a world that often fails to believe that women can have expertise in academic subjects. It is a world in which male students consistently address their female professors as "Mrs." and their male professors as "Dr." or "Professor." Women's expertise is often discounted. If I lay mine out for you from the start, that's why. - Katy S
As has been stated earlier, it's generally held that the law under which he was arrested cannot apply within one's house (within reason, I suppose, no 150 db clamor), which is likely why Crowley led Gates outside: in order to set him up for an acceptable pretext. - Andrew C (✔)
Ah -- now I have a problem with academics. Interesting. - Sean McBride
Sean - the way you worded that response above, it certainly sounded like it. You find them condescending? Fwiw, I've never found Obama condescending. You write about how this is a class issue (and I do agree that class is part of the problem, but not all of it) in terms of Harvard professor and police officer, always deferring to the police officer. It's a pattern. I noticed it. - Katy S
From Tom Wise, and sadly sounds like someone on thsi thread: "Such a perception on the part of whites makes sense, given the white racial frame, as sociologist Joe Feagin calls it, through which most whites view these matters. That frame says, among other things, that as long as you are respectful to police, nothing bad will happen to you (thus, if something bad does happen to you it... more... - anna sauce
questions for anyone who wishes to participate: 1) is the Gates incident about race (were racial slurs or insinuations made, and by whom)? 2) is it about abusing a position of power (did parties try to use their position to bully the other, give examples)? finally, 3) what evidence is there that, if both parties were of the same race, this would have turned out differently? - MikeAmundsen
Katy isn't the only one who noticed. - Big Joe Silenced
Anna -- it seems that Obama and Gates would both like to close this case as soon as possible. Are they victims of a dominant white narrative? Or did they simply step into it and now want to get clear? - Sean McBride
who wouldn't? - Big Joe Silenced
OK Sean, tell me what you think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - anna sauce
@anna: great video! - MikeAmundsen
Andrew- I bet that's why they dropped the case, because it's obvious, recorded entrapment! - anna sauce
OK I'm off to drink - recommend the same to all here :) - anna sauce
Mike - 1) I think it definitely was an issue in terms of historical (and modern day) precedents that influenced the way people responded to one another. Whether it was conscious or sub-conscious is another issue. 2)maybe for Gates, most likely for the police officer. Once he determined that Gates lived there (and he said he did in his report) he should have left. The onus is on the cop to defuse the situation. 3) We have no idea and really can't know. - Katy S
Mike - WRT #3, we can't know for sure, but there is at least one anecdote (caveat of course) about a white person in Cambridge who had had to break into her own home and got local police help to do so, _without ever having to show ID_. http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - Andrew C (✔)
@KatyS: cool. on 1: i've read a report that Gates used the phrase "your mamma" when responding to the officer. if true, this leads _me_ to think he has brought race into the conversation. correct me, if you like. on 2: is it possible that a prize-winning PhD might have had an opportunity to intimidate the officer? on 3: i agree 100% - MikeAmundsen
#2 - I think the uninvited cop with a gun has the intimidation high hand _at that moment_. Of course Gates has some standing too, and this was seen later, but at that moment, come on. - Andrew C (✔)
@AndrewC: i see your point. i'm not convinced it's the same situation, since Gates was already _in_ the house, but i see the comparision. - MikeAmundsen
Mike, 1) the incident certainly involves race, given today's revelations that Ms. Whalen (the 911 caller) says she never described "black men," but Crowley's police report specifically says she did. Whalen also says she never spoke to Crowley at the scene, and Crowley's police report says she did. *So either Whalen or the cop is lying.* Period. 2) Gates tried to pull rank because he is... more... - Karim
@AndrewC: i agree that having a gun is a big deal. i'm not asking that in #2. i'm asking about how parties might have behaved at that moment. i am not ready to concede that Gates, an highly respected and worldly man, would have assumed that he had no leverage at that moment. - MikeAmundsen
Sorry Mike, I was responding to your _second_ #2... =) (this would probably be easier if we had threaded comments.) - Andrew C (✔)
@Karim: on #1: while i see the lying, i'm not sure that proves any racism here. i understand your conclusion, tho. #2 i think we both agree here. Gates was in a position to make things bad for the officer. the officer might have been trying to cover his errors w/ more mistakes. #3 again, i see your point, but while it is true blacks continue to be mistreated is not evidence that things... more... - MikeAmundsen
BTW, the Cambridge commissioner says the discrepancy between Whalen's account and the report is because the report is a summary of the entire incident. However, the police report _flat out says the responding officer talked to Whalen when arriving at the scene and she gave a brief description of what was going on_; Whalen says she identified herself at the scene and that was it. So for me, Commissioner Haas hasn't cleared up the discrepancies yet. - Andrew C (✔)
Mike - I wouldn't be surprised if Gates thought that his position shielded him more than a low-income black man. He is accustomed to being treated with respect. At the same time, he's a fairly small man who can't walk without a cane b/c of hip problems. He certainly couldn't have been a physical threat. If he did pull a "your mama" - and Gates claimed he didn't - it still isn't reason for the cop to arrest him. I hold the police to a high standard. - Katy S
@Katy S: i agree w/ your points here. Gates surely was not expected this kind of treatment upon his return within his own home; no one would. years ago, i had a single incident in front of my house, after a long trip, with my family present where an officer questioned me and was ready to arrest me based on an erroneous report. i was intimidated and embarrassed and - yes angry. lucky for... more... - MikeAmundsen
@Katy S: about the standard; i agree 100% percent. and in the last few days almost all police officials interviewed in the media back up your comment. i'm trying not to go to that point in these questions. i am really exploring how people _might_ have felt and reacted in the moment; not how that _should_ have acted or were trained to act. - MikeAmundsen
Mike, for your question (1), the more I think about, the more I feel that, while Crowley's actions probably weren't consciously motivated by Gates' race, I actually think the fact that Gates called him a racist pushed him in a direction that he might not have gone if that word hadn't been used. I can't find the source of the quote, but I remember someone saying that calling a white person a racist elicits pretty much the same level of emotion and anger as calling a person-of-color a racial epithet. - Victor Ganata
@Victor: this is a possibility, isn't it? certainly, as Karim has rightly pointed out, history teaches that black citizens are more likely to be intimidated by white officers than the other way 'round. but statistics is not the point here, i think. - MikeAmundsen
@Victor: btw, do we know Gates called Crowley as racist? i've not seen that. anyone have a pointer for me? - MikeAmundsen
(2) I honestly have a hard time envisioning a situation where a civilian would have more power than a cop, unless they were a politician or immensely wealthy. In terms of absolute power, I actually think an academician's position is pretty poor, especially in the anti-intellectual climate of the U.S. - Victor Ganata
Mike, according to the report, Gates called Crowley a racist: http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - Andrew C (✔)
Mike, in Crowley's report he states "Gates was telling the person on the other end of the call that he was dealing with a racist police officer in his home." - Victor Ganata
@AndrewC: i'm reading a copy of the report right now and see several times where Crowley sez Gates accused him of being a racist. - MikeAmundsen
(3) There's obviously no way to run a controlled, prospective experiment, and I realize anecdotes aren't data, but, as Karim states, exactly how many white professors get arrested for no good reason inside their own homes? - Victor Ganata
Ok, i'm getting the message that 1) most folks here think that the racism present in the incident was on the part of the officer; 2) few people here think it likely that Gates was attempting to use his position to bully the officer; and 3) most folks here think the story would have been quite different if both Gates and the officer were of the same race. do i have that right? - MikeAmundsen
btw, i read a copy of the police report from two officers here: [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...] - MikeAmundsen
Mike -- based on the evidence to date, the only racial profiling that occurred in this incident was applied by Henry Gates against James Crowley, and Gates did indeed try to bully Crowley with his supposedly superior authority, if the police report is to be believed. ("Do you know who you are messing with?") Gates could possibly contradict this impression with other facts, but he and Obama want to "move on" really fast -- like yesterday. - Sean McBride
According to that NYT article you've been citing, Crowley also wants to move on. Funny you keep only bringing up one side... - Andrew C (✔)
@AndrewC: you talkin' to me? - MikeAmundsen
No, to Sean. - Andrew C (✔)
AndrewC: ok, i thought so, just wanted to check. thanks. - MikeAmundsen
listening to released audio tapes here: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...] - MikeAmundsen
@SB: i know your opinion, just trying to characterize the general sentiment on this thread right now. - MikeAmundsen
Katy- thanks so much for framing our debate with the numbered system! This is the best discussion ever. Today, having a beer with my friend, I got a pretty good idea of what I think happened. Just a hunch, let's say. Crowley has taught racial sensitivity in the police corps for 5 years. It's his pride point. Gates calls him on it. Crowley's pride is hurt, extremely, and he forgets that... more... - anna sauce
Anna - that was Mike. I was just answering his questions and using his order and numbers. - Katy S
this thread is another example i can cite to show folks why i love FF. thanks to all. - MikeAmundsen
Anna -- curiously, your latest musings come close to my own -- except I would put more emphasis on Gates' strangely bad behavior. - Sean McBride
the thing that puts it past a "shoddy police work" is the police report that contains a conversation with Whalen that Whalen claims *never happened.* that's not just a minor detail, like getting the number of people rubbernecking on the sidewalk off. it's not a subjective difference. if Whalen is to believed, Crowley *fabricated* an entire conversation that never happened. that's beyond shoddy, it's fraudulent. - Karim
Leo Laporte
John Dvorak's Second Opinion: Is the party over for behemoth Microsoft? - MarketWatch - http://www.marketwatch.com/m...
What's shocking is that the cash cows, specifically the Windows operating system and the Office suite, have managed to finance all these idiotic efforts for so many years. While Microsoft's profits and sales were way down this last quarter, it is only a matter of time before losses begin. Read more about the disappointing earnings. The cash cows are dying of neglect. This company cannot keep its eye on the ball because there are too many shiny objects to distract it. Now comes the latest fiasco: Microsoft wants to open retail stores, all of them next to or near an Apple store. - Leo Laporte
Copycats! How funny that THAT is all they can come up with. Stores...really. I don't like MS and I bet we could come up with 10 kick butt ideas for them that are better than that! - Tobin Truog
MS never innovated anything. DOS was purchased. Windows was designed at PARC. Their initial networking (NETBUI protocol) was flat without routing and was a pain to integrate with TCP/IP, WordPerfect and Netscape were killed by business practices instead of technology, every web designer has a CSS nightmare with IE and cross-browser compatibility, MS invented the idea that computers need... more... - Keith Barrett
I'd say lack of any true innovation is the cause of this. When you look at it, alot of the companies that are dying in this recession because they weren't really doing anything new for long periods of time. That's just the case here. - Hugh Isaacs II from iPod
This article completely misses the source of Microsoft's fastest growing products in the business sector. MS Dynamics products for business-line applications are one area that Microsoft is really gaining share (lumped in with Office sales if you look at their quarterly reports to hide that Office sales are declining). Also, I believe that Microsoft will start to realize different... more... - Chris Reichow
The bigger problem I think isn't just Microsoft, but really any large company, that is "innovating" by buying startups rather than creating an R&D culture/investment within the organization - Chris Reichow
My question for Dvorak is: What can MS do today to stay true to its core business as a software company? The fact is "software" does not have the growth like a few years ago. MS needs to diversify to keep growing, and yes some of those ideas failed. You can't fault a guy for trying - Andre P. Siregar
I propose that Microsoft needs to stop being a "incremental" company, or a "ever fixing company", and start at least using 20% of their resources to come with their "black stallion", they do need to innovate, just watch Google, they have so many things going because of the use of the 80-20 rule thus, if you have for the foreseeable time covered 80% of your business needs, you certainly... more... - Carlos F. Sam
First step is for BillG to fire SteveB. Ballmer has presided in one of the largest losses of shareholder equity of all time. If the baord was a responsible governing process it would boot him out. Second, review each business and shut those not making money. A slim, focused MS could then return to the fray and maybe even turn things around. Get back to work Bill ... - Jeff
Say what you want, if you havent tried Windows 7 with the Office 2010 stack you might be little surprised. It positively changed my workflow for the better. I still use linux,xp,vista and by far prefer Win 7. I can't wait for a Windows 7, touch screen, notebook, ion, atom, ssd, OLED and WIMAX. MS still has the largest Library like Video Games by orders of magnitude and there is a huge... more... - Robert Higgins
Windows 7 is a huge step in the right direction but I think Chrome is going to change the game. - Trent Hamm from iPod
funny when i read the earnings report it said that revenues took a hit because PC and server sales dropped. because of something called a "recession," which is apparently something that happened to the economy? news to me. but this must be microsoft's fault, right? this "recession" thing? - Karim
Liviu: http://www30.wolframalpha.com/input... might help you decide whether a percentage rise in stock price is more important than, say, the P/E ratio. - Karim
...I agree with those who say that the lack of true innovation is the real problem, but i'm not sure this is the kind of thing you can just flip a switch and start doing overnight. - .LAG liked that
Birthers embarrass the Republicans | Rightwing extremists who don't believe Barack Obama is a US citizen are making life hard for moderate Republicans http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment...
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"Most political town hall meetings are pretty dull affairs. Not this one. The YouTube clip of an irate woman waving her birth certificate in a plastic bag and telling Delaware congressman Mike Castle that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, not the United States, has become an online sensation. Castle, a mild-mannered moderate, was booed when he insisted that our president is in fact a citizen. It's been on the Drudge Report, Rush Limbaugh and just about every political website out there. The session was so embarrassing that a Castle staffer felt obliged to tell a local columnist that the hecklers were from out of state. The birther controversy has a tight grip on rightwing opponents who argue that Obama is not the lawful president. FactCheck.org took a thorough look at the issue – and the birth certificate itself – and concluded: "It meets all of the requirements from the state department for proving US citizenship." The website went further: "We suggest that those who choose to go down... more... - sofarsoShawn
WOW that gets intense! - sofarsoShawn
Reap, sow, etc. - Ayşe E.
It's funny that the person who posted the video was a supporter of the woman who asked the question, while the people who made it viral were saying, "Wow! Look at this moron!" - Chris Johnson
This is what happens when you make craziness part of your party's mainstream. - John (bird whisperer)
They are not just right wing extremists, they are nutjobs! How are these people not heavily medicated and strapped to a bed in a small padded room? lol - Heather
Jon Stewart hilariously featured this YouTube clip on last Wednesday's "The Daily Show": http://www.hulu.com/watch... go watch. trust me. :-D - Karim
Arggggg there's no Hulu in Canada!!! Comedy Central I think it is. & she's crazzzzzzyy! - sofarsoShawn
sorry about that, Shawn :-D it's roughly the first 9 minutes of this show: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-ep... - Karim
Thx LOL "Born Identity", & actually had to go here: for the .ca version http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/shows... I still can't belive they have a court case for him to present it - sofarsoShawn
Heh, Heather, I wonder how much the fact that Reagan dismantled state-run mental health programs and facilities has to do with how many nutjobs get to roam free. Who knew that what seemed to be a mere cost-saving measure may have actually also served the purpose of increasing the Republican base? - Victor Ganata
Survival of the fittest...that's totally Darwin/un-creationist so unscientific. - sofarsoShawn
Victor, never heard that theory before but then again the Reps have gone so batty that it makes sense. - Karma Martell
LOL see my above comment, and yeah Jon Stewart nails it - sofarsoShawn
lol Shawn, i thought you were quoting Stewart when you said "she's crazzzzzzyy!" but i guess it was just a case of Great Minds Think Alike? :-D - Karim
Carcassonne castle, France - http://www.wayfaring.info/2009...
Carcassonne castle, France
Carcassonne castle, France
Show all
"The ancient walled city of Carcassonne perched on a hill over the more modern extended town is an historical treasure. Located at the strategic intersection of two historic trade routes, from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean and from Spain to the center of France. In Carcassonne, visitors stroll along the cobblestone streets, browsing shops selling Medieval wares. Some describe it as a tourist-trap." - M F from Bookmarklet
they say "tourist trap" like that's a bad thing. :-D i guess if they build a modern replica and charge the same prices and call it a "theme park" nobody would have a problem with it :-D - Karim
Well said, Karim. - Ayşe E.
Pilots recreate Channel crossing - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
"Two pilots have successfully recreated the first flight across the English Channel, on the 100th anniversary of the achievement." - Karim
Guy next to me on the plane just came back from the bathroom with his face dripping wet. Dripping.
Maybe he washed his face and there were no more towels? Hopefully it wasn't sweat from exertion! - Herb Hernandez
Gross - Shevonne
Have a nice flight :P - The Fat Oracle
Herb nooooo *brain bleach* - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
I'm laughing reading yours and mike fabio's tweets. Both of you at LAX on the same time. Both of you just boarded your plane. - Anika
Hopefully Mr. Lithgow won't be yelling about a man on the wing of the plane..... - Peter Ghosh
Oh, herb. That is a repulsive thought. He was an odd man... - edythe from iPhone
sorry, i had a bad curry. - Big Joe Silenced
Blech. - Derrick
:\ - Ayşe E.
Was it over 100ml of dripping? 'cause I think regulations don't allow more than that =) - Micah
lol Peter. i had forgetten Lithgow was in the "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet" segment of the Twilight Zone movie. the segment opens with Lithgow dousing his face in the lavatory sink and he goes back to his seat with his face dripping wet. *dripping.* http://i25.tinypic.com/2rc770l... - Karim
♫ where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies...... ♫ - Karim
Niceeee Karim! Goes musically with the pink cotton candy! - Myrna
This might be the way a bird sees a tree, or an insect for that matter! - Charlie Barone
Charlie, you could be right! - Myrna
Anytime Joe :) - Myrna
no, sally, though i wish it was! :-) - Karim
Hey, here's the pink tree! .. like cotton candy only healthier. - Myrna
Pretty!! I like!! - Kelli Perez
Gorgeous - Bren from iPhone
anna sauce
Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism - Yahoo! News - http://news.yahoo.com/s...
Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism - Yahoo! News
"Cambridge police were called to the home Thursday afternoon after a woman reported seeing a man "wedging his shoulder into the front door as to pry the door open," according to a police report." - anna sauce from Bookmarklet
omfg. I can't believe this. Who is the woman? How could she not know this is HLG? Sigh. - anna sauce
what the... - edythe
And arrested after he showed that he lived there! - John (bird whisperer)
he was disturbing the peace for not complying with the police (ie he was being a pain in the butt too :( - chaz2b
@Chaz - sometimes they level that charge if you open your mouth at all. It looks like his biggest crime was being black in an affluent neighborhood. - Jennifer Dittrich
Hey "Mob", feel like reading the police report? ( http://www.boston.com/news... ) Obviously only one side of the story, but there should be plenty of witnesses to the whole deal. Lets not grab our pitchforks just yet! - Rasmus Lauridsen
@Rasmus - but I've got mine ready and everything! - Jennifer Dittrich
Yes Jennifer, mine is all purty polished. Oh and you wouldn't believe how hot my "Thunderstorm 5000" super torch is :-P - Rasmus Lauridsen
Kudos to Rasmus for the torch shoutout. :D - Bette Cooper
Of course I would be steamed... then, in the midst of my steaming, I would show them my ID, then show them the door. I don't see a need to escalate things. If he didn't do that, and didn't need to be arrested, it will come out from witnesses. You know someone, somewhere, has a phone video of the whole thing, just waiting to put it up on YouTube. - Bette Cooper
They don't have to believe him. But there is two or more sides to every story. There is the police side, there's Dr. Gates side oh and there are a bunch of witnesses who actually you know witnessed the whole thing... What I am saying is that we have no clue what really went down, therefore we might want to wait before we call the police "redneck racist bastards". - Rasmus Lauridsen
Wait, his neighbor didn't recognize him. That is the real crime. - anna sauce
Can I just re-iterate, this is HENRY LOUIS GATES. He basically wrote the book on racism in America, and his neighbor thinks he's a thug breaking into his OWN HOUSE. - anna sauce
"He went to Yale and gained his B.A. summa cum laude in History. " - anna sauce
"Gates withdrew after a month at Yale Law School, and in October 1975 he was hired by Charles T. Davis as a secretary in the Afro-American Studies department at Yale. In July 1976, Gates was promoted to the post of Lecturer in Afro-American Studies with the understanding that he would be promoted to Assistant Professor upon completion of his dissertation. Jointly appointed to assistant... more... - anna sauce
Yes, there is a definite level of irony in this... So perhaps the next question is, did he have his back to her, so she couldn't identify him, or was she feeling spiteful because he wasn't the most pleasant of neighbors? Yet more questions... - Bette Cooper
"Gates has been the host and co-producer of African American Lives (2006) and African American Lives 2 (2008) in which the lineage of notable African Americans is traced using genealogical resources and DNA testing. In the first series, Gates learns of his European ancestry (50%), and in the second installment we learn he is descended from the Irish King, Niall of the Nine Hostages. He also learns that he is descended in part from the Yoruba people of Nigeria." - anna sauce
"In 2002 the National Endowment for the Humanities selected Gates for the Jefferson Lecture, the U.S. federal government's highest honor for achievement in the humanities.[7] Gates' lecture was entitled "Mister Jefferson and the Trials of Phillis Wheatley"[8] and was the basis for his book The Trials of Phillis Wheatley.[9]" - anna sauce
I think this points out that there are still lots of room for improvement in law enforcement, and the culture, in stereotyping indivduals- racial profiling, etc. - anna sauce
It's like calling Warren Buffet a pickpocketer because he put his hand in his pocket. - anna sauce
As a white woman, I've had strangers help me break into my house with no proof of ownership. I just had a traffic ticket waved. I mean, come on. - anna sauce
It's like that Eddie Murphy skit where he puts on white paint. Must be on youtube somewheres. - anna sauce
Reading the police report, it seems the person who called it in is kind of whack. - Victor Ganata
Definitely questions all around. The police reports reads a bit oddly, to me as a laywoman, but it is only one side of a multi-faceted tale. I will be waiting to hear how it all goes down over the next days. Yes, The States still have a long way to go, in general, to get past the attitudes and actions of the past. We all have to do our part, positively, to keep that in motion. - Bette Cooper
All I know for sure is this is not the last we will here of this story. - Kim Landwehr
I mean, seriously, how do you mistake your 58 year old neighbor for two black males with backpacks? - Victor Ganata
Honestly, you couldn't write this as fiction. It would be deemed heavy handed and proselytizing. No, but it happened in real life, which to me is just insane. And probably why more poeple are reading non-fiction than fiction lately. - anna sauce
Ooooh, Tiffany. Brilliant find. She's gonna be fired. - anna sauce
Anna, I know my neighbors but I didn't know who Mr. Gates was until today. - Jim #teamFFrank
Yeah either 1) you know your neighbors, 2) you know you COWORKERS lol 3) you know HLG. One or the other? All 3? Has this woman been living under a rock? And I thought Cambridge was a small town. - anna sauce
I'm not entirely sure this Lucia woman who called it in is actually his neighbor. She works for harvard mag which appears to be located on Skip's street. In this sense it sounds like she was at work and saw some black people breaking into a harvard building (it's all on campus it looks like). Not an excuse not to knwo who he is (if she even got a good look), but she should probably at least know he lives in the area? Either way, i don't blame her for NOT knowing exactly who all her neighbors are... - Liz
He had ID! And the police still made a big deal out of it. It was a total cock-up. - anna sauce
Showing an ID doesn't mean the house you are breaking into is yours. - Willem (@wim66) ☠
To those doubters on this thread that don't see what I see- a rather obvious racial profiling situation- tell the story to yourself without any detail that he's black, and see just how ludicrous it is. - anna sauce
It all seems like another perfect lesson to our larger community or anyone ready to learn. It takes a high profile figure like Gates to shine 'the light'. So here he is, probably unknowingly, teaches the world yet another lesson. The cops, just pawns in the larger scheme of things. - Myrna
Sean, its a big challenge to know when the other person is ready to listen in each unique situation. In this case, the cops. Better to use your intuition to know how to deal. Yelling or cursing can drive the wedge deeper, - Myrna
ok, up to the point that the officer wanted to verify that he was Harvard prof and he lived there, I'm fine with. It really should have stopped there, though. - Chieze Okoye
Sean, try venting your anger at someone who loves you or others who know and like you. See what happens. Imagine doing it to a stranger or a cop who usually(not always but many) went into police work because of some power thing. - Myrna
Freedom of speech, allow, in a perfect world. - Myrna
Looks like they dropped the charges: http://www.reuters.com/article... - Chieze Okoye
From my friend who lives in Cambridge: "I saw a thing in the Globe about Gates. Sounds like a clueless, racist neighbor (who never bothered to get to know her neighbors) and foolish police. I looked up his house. Looks like he's lived there since at least 2004. It's in a lovely, fancy, Harvardy neighborhood near harvard square." - anna sauce
Chieze, that's the first smart thing Cambridge PD has done. - anna sauce
OMG is all that I can type write now. - Mathew A. Koeneker
Funny - HLG calls them racist, which they were, and he's "resisting arrest." - anna sauce
Yeah Myrna see the link above by Chieze. - anna sauce
Watching on CNN and also got tweet :) - Myrna
Got a tweet re: what? I've always wondered at folks who post without reading the whole thread. - anna sauce
tense and nervous / and i / can't relax...
♫ qu'est-ce que c'est? ♫ - Karim
Psycho killer! - Chris Charabaruk
Don't touch me, I'm a real live wire - Hiro Asari
fa fa... - edythe
Jason Toney
You Just Can’t Make This Stuff Up. - http://misterjt.tumblr.com/post...
Open and shut case, Johnson,” he says to his partner. “I saw a case just like this  when I was a rookie. Apparently, this nigger broke into this house and hung up pictures of his family everywhere! Dave Chappelle, as it relates to Henry Louis Gates, Jr. today via postbourgie.com Related articles by Zemanta Henry Louis Gates Arrested (nytimes.com) Posted via web from The Pensieve | Comment » - Jason Toney
nonplussed. - Karim
At a loss for words. I'm furious for Dr. Gates. I hope he can get some sleep tonight. I'd be on the ceiling. And god, we need Dave Chappelle back! - Ayşe E.
I find it hard to fathom that the officer found it necessary to arrest Gates after I.D. was produced. My guess is, whatever Gates' behavior, he would have been arrested. The officer needed to muddy the waters against the inevitable charges that were coming against him. Strictly CYA. - MoTO Boychick Devil
Robert Scoble
Software Engineering: Dead? - http://www.codinghorror.com/blog...
@scobleizer i agree, software developement is craftsmanship, not engineering - Kevin Tunis
"What we do IS crafmanship." hard to agree, I can see the logic behind it, yes. But it could be both, I mean engineering is kind of a craftmanship? - Özgür D. Cyric
contentious point on the surface that probably devolves to a semantic argument. i think the bottom line is that the paper's author, Tom DeMarco, is just mellowing out a bit in his old age. :-D you start off at one end of the spectrum (engineering Nazi) and you're bound to eventually realize hey sometimes you can just wing it. look at Twitter -- more hacked together than engineered, not especially reliable, but it has played an important role. - Karim
Control is needed not for completion, unlike other disciplines, but for sustaining Software. Maintaining Semantic Hygiene is the Hardest task there is in Software Engineering Management. http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Vasu Srinivasan
This is anathema to the entire software outsourcing industry that has grown on the premise that s/w development can be predictably controlled. - Mahendra (SkepticGeek)
Leaving aside the sensational title, I think Jeff's point is that certain traditional practices like waterfall, software-as-a-manufacturing-process, discrete estimation, etc. never really accurately depicted the practice of building software. Jeff makes some good points, but I'm not sure that *craftsmanship* is the last word on this topic. - Matthew Trunnell
It will be engineering again when computers stop getting faster every year. Would you really spend a lot of time engineering the mpg of a car if you knew that gasoline was going to be 2x as effective every 18 months? - Sam Pullara
I think, s/w craftmanship is evolving to s/w engineering. IDE's are getting better, ALM tools and models are getting better. We have better tools, better models and new ideas to build s/w... Unlike any other engineering dicipline, s/w engineering is highly depend on intellectual property while developing s/w product. - ersan bilik
Michael W. May
"1. R.E.M - Man On The Moon 2. Frank Sinatra - Fly Me To The Moon 3. Asobi Seksu - Walk On The Moon 4. Bat For Lashes - Moon and Moon 5. The Drums - Me And The Moon 6. Nick Drake - Pink Moon 7. Atlas Sound - Blue Moon 8. Earth - Hung From The Moon 9. The Walkmen - Red Moon 10. Echo & The Bunnymen - The Killing Moon Click here to download the entire mixtape!" - Michael W. May from Bookmarklet
:) love the killing moon. but man on the moon is one r.e.m. song i really don't care for. - edythe
♫ giant steps are what you take / walking on the moon / i hope my legs don't break / walking on the moon ♫ - The Police - Karim
Definitely, The Police, "Walking on the Moon." Killer bass line... - Fossil Huntress
FFing Enigma
Found this shirt at Goodwill yesterday. They're right, you won't understand it.
2009-07-18 15.28.21.jpg
MoonPie + RC = a many decades long tradition. I'll let you in on a li'l secret though: I don't particularly like MoonPies. People here blame it on the fact that my parents grew up in Detroit ;-) - FFing Enigma
I've never had a MoonPie. Not the biggest fan of marshmallow. - Akiva
I never have had one either. - Yolanda
I don't think I've had either. - John (bird whisperer)
Hates marshmallow and would only eat the cookie parts, and even then: Meh. --> - Derrick
my mom loved MoonPies and RC; not necessarily at the same time. - jbrotherlove
I don't mind a few 'raw' marshmallows but I don't like them cooked or in things. - Akiva
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm. - Daniel J. Pritchett from iPhone
I don't get how folks can eat marshmallows right out of the bag. Squicks me out. - Yolanda
The dusty, matte exterior is the best part. There's just something really pleasing about that texture. The internal gooey bit isn't nearly as good but I'll suffer it for that initial touch. - Akiva
a moonpie store opened in charleston a few weeks ago. stopped in there for the first time a couple of days ago. didn't get to try a moonpie, but they did have a cool looking soda/ice cream counter. - Imabug
I have consumed many of both in my youth. - Brent - Yes I am
Oh, I understand it. It's still gross. - Steven Perez
You're absolutely right. I don't really drink soda and don't eat many sweets. Consequently...I need one of those with a pic of a latte and a cigarette. lol - Christian (Simply X)
A MoonPie, heated for 20 seconds in a microwave with two scoops of homemade vanilla ice cream on top and a cold RC cola ( or Diet Rite if that's too much sugar) THAT'S a wonderful memory and makes me hungry. BTW, I have Mini MoonPies in the pantry right now :) - Andy Glover
LOVE the combo... and the proper pronunciation is "Moom-pie and AR-cie coluh" - MoTO Boychick Devil
http://news.yahoo.com/s... That's one small snack for man... - Karim
Karim, that's one GIGANTIC moonpie! - FFing Enigma
tina - you grew up in detroit? wow. that explains a lot. (i tease because i love) - Morgan
No dear, I grew up in SC. My parents both lived in Detroit until they were teenagers, and then both their families moved to TN (which is where they met). - FFing Enigma
Robert Scoble
I wonder how many people and companies are changing their passwords and policies this morning because of #twittergate and http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... ? I know I am, I was doing a few of the stupid practices that caught Twitter.
Does anyone have a good blog post for how to come up with strong password names and policies? - Robert Scoble
taht's great, I am also willing to change my password. - Madhav Tripathi
1Password on the Mac... - Holger Eilhard
not for corp use but for personal use 1Password is perfect - Mike Bracco
Holger: beat me to it :) - Mike Bracco
Mike: Sometimes I'm faster. Rarely, but happens :-) - Holger Eilhard
I will write a blog post about it. - Madhav Tripathi
Robert on the network side of things there are programs that generate strong passwords. But you can develop a "feel" for it. I have to create them all the time. Just don't use "memory aids" they lead to social hacks - Melanie Reed
You're okay if you don't use 3rd party apps to login to Twitter, right? - Steven E. Streight
Sorry, should have linked to the TechCrunch article about how the hacker broke into Twitter: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... - Robert Scoble
Steven: this isn't about your Twitter account's security. It's about your security on the Web. - Robert Scoble
I have no need because my passwords have always been 12+ characters, include caps, random characters, and numbers. I'm sure most people that use FF are the same way. The engineers I work with bitch about my choice of passwords all the time. - coldbrew
The sad reality is any password can be hacked. It's just a matter of time as in attrition. But you can make it harder for them with strong passwords - Melanie Reed
Yeah, we've always tried to make sure our hosting customers understand how important it is create good passwords, but many still use bad passwords, hopefully all of this recent press will scare them into using better passwords. Most people don't care about their password until something bad happens to them. It's similar to people who ignore making backups and then find out the hard way. - Scott Beale
I use Lastpass.com to generate and save passwords. - mrshl
Just pick a couple good ones that you can use for different things. Practice typing them so you can remember the keystrokes easier. The more you use them the easier it will be to remember. Use keepass or FFox to keep track of them. - Logan Lindquist
1Password hands down for ease of use and strong password creation on OSX and iPhone - Jerry Schuman
I wrote this regarding Twitter, security & the cloud: Here's my thoughts http://www.thetechnewsblog.com/2009... #twittergate - Jim Connolly
Melanie: it's the social hacks that will catch the most people. Not the strength of the passwords. Notice that he didn't need to guess the passwords, he just needed to use the ecosystem against itself. - Robert Scoble
I agree 100% about 1Password, one of the best Mac apps out there: http://agilewebsolutions.com/product... - Scott Beale
Roboform on Windows. Otherwise 1Password. - Herb Hernandez
Very few. People and companies generally don't make policy changes until they're bitten themselves. - Darren
Good point about social engineering, Scoble. - coldbrew
Robert: yes. its the easiest hack to employ - Melanie Reed
Or there's a business requirement . e.g. Customers inquire about policies based on what they've read in the news and impose requirements on their partners. - Darren
If you need cross-platform then I'd look at http://www.keepassx.org - Jerry Schuman
1 - Mark
Unfortunately most companies don't change passwords until they have too, the IT department doesn't want to deal with the calls when someone can't remember there password. - Kim Landwehr
The best thing to happen to corporate security was the public insecurity of Microsoft software int the late part of the 90s and earlier in the decade. - Darren
a lot, I hope..... - Alex Griffiths
FTR, I use Keepass (hosted on sourceforge). - coldbrew
I had to this week my XBL account was hacked. - Dylan Richardson
I had to change everything and cancel 2 cards. - Dylan Richardson
same here, Justin. I use lastpass which generates random passwords, and has one master password, which is a very secure one. - Tim Hoeck
A couple of months ago, my gmail was hacked. They then quickly went and changed my Itunes account over to another email and started buying iphone apps. In the about an hour and a half, that they had control over my email they spent almost $1000. Luckily they made the mistake of changing the name and language on my account. I don't use the email much anymore but g reader so I spotted it.... more... - Rasmus Lauridsen
for years, private corporate systems have had security measures like password strength policies for a domain, password age policies, secure connection requirements, logon policies that deny multiple logons, locking out user accounts after multiple password failures, etc. etc. etc. this incident with Twitter is a huge wake-up call. - Karim
What first caught my eye was this article was written by Nik Cubrilovic. I had wondered what had happened to him, and hoped everything was well with him. - Lloyd Budd
Yeah, Nik was in the TechCrunch office when I was there the other day. I figured a big story was underway cause Arrington told me to stop wasting Nik's time and to go bug the interns. :-) - Robert Scoble
Making an awesomely strong password wouldn't have prevented this attack. It was using the same awesomely strong password that made the attack possible. And who hasn't done that? There's just too many apps that require passwords out there. - marziah
I typically use KeePass to generate as strong a password as I can. I try to keep passwords to a minimum of 20 characters and use letters, numbers and symbols...some sites allow this some do not. If there is a password character max I will use that max (within reason). The problem I have is with some of the accounts I want to be able to access from my Blackberry. Having a 50 character... more... - Sean Brady
I use RoboForm to create all my passwords. I have them backed up and honestly couldn't type one out if I tried, they all are 14-16 chars long - George Handlin
+1 George. A good pw generator like RoboForm or 1password can save you a lot of grief later on. - Bill Sodeman
interesting experiment, make accounts at free websites and have really awful passwords and see how long it takes to get hacked! - Mark
I agree with Sean Brady, makes it tough entering on the blackberry. Especially how sometimes it will cap the first character and when it's masked, makes it even tougher. Wish there was something I could host on my own server that would work with all my machines (Win/Mac) and my phones. I don't like the idea of storing on some hosted service. Thinking of trying RoboForms hosted service since they are trusted and I've gained personal trust for the application. - George Handlin
It makes me anxious not knowing my password is for a particular site... so I've always been wary of things like 1password or roboform. I also need something that I can pull up from any computer, which rules out 1password. I've heard good things about supergenpass - Mark Philpot
Justin - @jtyost2 - I just checked out www.clipperz.com for the password mgmt, looks promising, but wish there were better integration w/ Firefox somehow. It's pretty cumbersome to get started. - Alex Schleber
thanks 4 reminder should do it now arrgh!! as we speak!! - polou/indigo_bow
Robert due to all the virus issues we went to a more secured password format 3 months ago. We use a minimum of 8 characters numbers letter and mixed case password plus you can not use your name. We force our users to change their passwords every 3 months. - Rob Cairns
I think for a security policy to be effective it has to be secret... - Alexandros Georgiadis
KeePass (Win) and KeePassX (cross platform) is excellennt! Strong public encryption and publicly available source code. I would love to go with LastPass, they have a beautiful cross platform syncing solution, but since they are closed source (for now) I'm holding off switching to their product. - Daniel Chow
I stopped using the same password years ago. To help me keep up with the various passwords, I have been using KeePass on Windows, Windows Mobile and OS X for several years; I'm waiting for iKeePass to become available. - MiniMage
http://www.yubico.com/home... for hardware PW protection, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US... FireFox addon LastPass is for software app, https://www.grc.com/passwor... for GRC's ultra High Security (put it on a usb flash and copy paste), http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2008... geeks know everything! - Rich Weaver
Yep the 'ecosystem' is undoubtedly insecure. I believe this type of hacking also has elements of social engineering to it. I dislike the "secret questions" as today when most people's personal information is transparent online what purpose do those questions serve, except to weaken security? Can we please opt out of dumb security questions... someone start a petition or something! - ASKJDOG
Great Post, I learned more about improving my security in 15 minutes than I would have at a 2 day seminar. :) - Robert Higgins
I hope the lasting legacy of twittergate is better security thanks to articles like this one. - Stephen Mack
I use http://passwordmaker.org/ for most of my password, it means I only need to remember a single password and it generates a unique password for each site I use (by hashing my password with the url). For the remaining sites, I use http://passwordsafe.sourceforge.net/ and dropbox to sync my password database across machines. - Wilka Hudson
I see many people using/recommending password generator sites. I also recommend these, but one day I thought - what if the password generators are hacked? --> http://robotterror.com/site... - Robert J Taylor
Password Maker (the first link) isn't just a password generator site - I use it as a FireFox plugin. It's also open source, so if you're really unsure about the safety of it you can have a look at the code yourself. I realise that's not a very good answer for an non-coders, but it does mean that if it was hacked *somebody* would notice and it would be all over blogs like Bruce Schneier http://www.schneier.com/blog/ - Wilka Hudson
Also, for you those of using Firefox - you should look at this: http://cubicledenizen.blogspot.com/2008... - Wilka Hudson
I think unless we develop somethig better than passwords we will never fix the problem. Using different strong passwords is good but it's no better than locking a cycle up outside a store, they just ensure that only dedicated people hack your acount/steal your cycle, which in general are the worst people to hack your account. - Darren Rollett
Some people on here have informed the world what their password policy is and what tool they use to generate passwords. If this had been a conversation down the pub then probably not a problem but if I want information on high value passwords FriendFeed would probably be the place to go due to the people who use the system. - Darren Rollett
Nobody has mentioned https://mashedlife.com - it uses a bookmarklet to log you into your sites. That way you can use anything for the password. Cliperz looks like a similar system. - Daniel Siva
Atul Arora
The Death of Email (yay!) | Thomas Crampton - http://www.thomascrampton.com/interne...
The Death of Email (yay!) | Thomas Crampton
"With the rising popularity of Instant messenger, Twitter-style status updates in social networks and other alternate forms of online communication, it is not surprising to see the continued decline of email usage among younger Internet users." - Atul Arora from Bookmarklet
I am young and I still use Email? - Matt Ruiz
Now lets compare this to a graph of percent change in sending messages through other services like Facebook, Myspace, and Twitter DMs. - Mitch
i'm using email more and more... - Chris Heath
Why is that "yay!"? I understand why it's happening, but I'm not sure why you're happy about it. - Rochelle
how can there be a negative percentage of ppl? - chaz2b
to quote Pauli, this is "not even wrong." 1) how the author can conclude that something that is growing in all demographic groups, except for one with a 7% decline, equals "dying" is beyond me. 2) the numbers are for *Japan.* not the world. 3) this is a study of web-based email specifically. the numbers *don't include* people who use things like Outlook, Mail.app, Entourage, Thunderbird, etc. 4) the numbers also don't include people who access email via PDA or *mobile phone.* - Karim
the Comscore press release says, "The younger demographic segments either decreased or witnessed very little increase in visits to email sites, which can likely be attributed to a greater reliance on alternate communication channels including social media and accessing email via mobile devices." for all we know the 7% downtick in teens is attributable to the iPhone :-D - Karim
ty, karim - chaz2b
[doffs hat] :-) i just hate it when people yank statistics out of context and start screaming their insane pet theory is proved. :-D - Karim
me 2, so thanks again - chaz2b
looks good but what is it? anyone? *addendum: "This Is Just To Say" by William Carlos Williams I have eaten the plums that were in the icebox and which you were probably saving for breakfast Forgive me they were delicious so sweet and so cold - http://www.photoforum.ru/photo...
looks good but what is it? anyone? *addendum: "This Is Just To Say"   	  
by William Carlos Williams

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
for breakfast

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold
Plum - Rodfather
But peaches and nectarines are yellow orangie - Myrna
I just like the photograph shot! Click and make it bigger..gorgeous - Myrna
grapes? - chaz2b
We have a plum tree in the backyard. This is what they look like washed. http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Rodfather
even washed, looks like grapes, :o - chaz2b
chaz, can I find fruits that cause as much commotion as chocolate treats? - Myrna
If there were music as beautiful as this plum we'd all be singing for our supper! - Charlie Barone
awwwww Charlie, what nice words...next step, poem :))) - Myrna
I wish that there may never be a plum - Charlie Barone
Of which you will not give me some - Charlie Barone
Joe, let me know :) - Myrna
Plum! - Rochelle
chaz, hot fudge. is that what you want? http://ff.im/5n8ZR - Myrna
Rochelle, looks like. - Myrna
Sally, what was the metaphor? - Myrna
Forgiveness, after all that sucking lol.. - Myrna
Do you have a link to his poem? - Myrna
Ok, will check it out..as soon as I find some good breakfasts for FF :)))) - Myrna
Sally, found it! Love it! Even read all about it, just from finding a pretty photo that was a bit mystifying at first. Look what comes from just a plum. :) Thx! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Myrna
I know, :)) - Myrna
This is just to say / there are many parodies / of that Williams poem / Sadly, most of them / have nothing to do / with plums / Forgive me / I know how much / you hate / thread hijacking - Karim
LOL Karim, who said I hate? - Myrna
<3 - Myrna
actually there's a good collection of "This is just to say" parodies in an episode of "This American Life" called "Mistakes Were Made": http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_E... -- fast-forward to about 50 minutes in to listen to the "This is just to say" segment. - Karim
TY Karim <3 - Myrna
TY=Thank You <3=heart - Myrna
sally -- sorry, didn't have any other poems about plums in mind... i don't think a parody necessarily mocks (treats with contempt) the original -- often the best parodies clearly *love* the original, but they replace the serious bits with funny or silly ones. (e.g. Weird Al Yankovic's "Fat" vs. Michael Jackson's "Bad," National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings" vs. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings," etc.) - Karim
though i did find a parody of "This is just to say" that does involve plums: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre... - Karim
Sally, its not just 3 alone. <3 is the symbol for heart. On other sites it shows up as a heart. - Myrna
sally, i know next to nothing about ed dorn -- though i might have to find other work of his to read, now... :-) don't know about sean cole's music, but it wouldn't surprise me -- there are a lot of multi-talented people working in public radio. where else could you find a radio show that connected apologies, cryogenics, and poetry about plums? :-D - Karim
Om Malik
Remember that, young people, you may be important now, but there will come a day when no one knows your name. @davewiner http://www.scripting.com/stories...
sic transit gloria mundi - Karim
Robert Scoble
I'm uninstalling Outlook 2010. Why? I need it to sync with Google Calendar and that doesn't work in new version.
you can't just view the iCal version of your Google Calendar as described here: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us... ? that works fine for viewing your Google Calendar in Outlook. or are you saying Google Calendar Sync doesn't work with Outlook 2010? - Karim
never mind. if you just want to view your Google Calendar in Outlook 2010 (1-way sync), the iCal version should work just fine. if you want 2-way sync (i.e. enter calendar items in Outlook and have them move to Google Calendar) then you probably want Google Calendar Sync, which, it turns out is hardcoded by Google to not work with Office 2010. http://www.markwilson.co.uk/blog... - Karim
Karim: right, I need two-way sync. - Robert Scoble
I gave up on Outlook and use a mix of Thunderbird and Google Apps. - Chris Abraham
I cut Outlook out of my life months ago. There are some downsides....but not as many as the upsides, IMHO. - Curt Mercadante
Robert Scoble
Playing with Outlook 2010. Seems a bit rough and they moved all the chairs on the deck. Fun that I know Gmail better than I know O2010 now.
There are so many features in the Ribbon that it makes me want Gmail. That's not a good trend for new users. - Robert Scoble
It'll run great on Google Chrome OS. On a $100 ARM based Chrome OS netbook. - Charbax
Also, the new "group conversation" features are pretty rough. I can see why Office will take at least six more months to finish off. They need to shave off the splinters here. - Robert Scoble
The Ribbon is the worst UI metaphor. - Jonathan Brown
Charbax: I don't think Outlook 2010 will run on Chrome. The web version will, of course, but I'm playing with the installed version. - Robert Scoble
Or are you talking about Gmail? :-) - Robert Scoble
Jonathan: I overall like the Ribbon. It makes me think of the Web. - Robert Scoble
I still find it odd people actually use Outlook. I definitely did not grow up with it and want nothing to do with it - Braden Douglass
Braden: yeah, I've used Microsoft's email program since the early 1990s. It's a hard habit to give up. Especially if you have a job inside a big company that uses Exchange for email and calendaring. - Robert Scoble
Robert: You may be one of the only who does. It annoys me to no end... in every Office application. - Jonathan Brown
Jonathan: actually Microsoft instrumented it and knows you're wrong because apps that have the new Ribbon get more feature usage. - Robert Scoble
Jonathan: but this argument is something I've had EVERYTIME a new UI gets introduced, not just at Microsoft. See Facebook, for instance, or old Mac arguments. - Robert Scoble
If I had more time I would have been able to convince my friend that works for M$ to show me Office 2010 the other day. - Jesse Stay
i am liking Outlook 2010. seems a little snapper than 2007 on this setup which surprised me for a Technical Preview. i wasn't crazy about Conversation view at first but i'm slowly warming up to it. want to give it a chance, anyway. under "Mobile Options" i like the idea of sending & receiving SMS from Outlook -- not so much liking the idea of *paying* for it, though :-D - Karim
Jesse: if you want to see what it does, check this out: http://friendfeed.com/scoblei... - Robert Scoble
Robert: Increased feature usage is not a function of the Ribbon, it's a result of changing behaviors and forcing people to look for the old button to do their job. - Jonathan Brown
When you try to setup a Gmail account in 2010, does it auto configure your settings for you yet? - Alex Knight
Robert: That's like saying changing a navigation menu that used to be very easy to find and hiding it 4 levels deep is an improvement because more people click on menu items. - Jonathan Brown
Alex: yup, worked just like it was supposed to with Gmail. Actually did a better job than Outlook 2007. - Robert Scoble
Good to hear. I wonder if MS is ever going to get away from PST files though. I'd like to see that happen. - Alex Knight
for the Ribbon Luddites there is now a tiny button next to the Help button that hides the Ribbon. click. *poof* gone. - Karim
Thanks Robert - I missed that as I was traveling (although I did catch the post). My lunch meeting with my friend was very interesting - M$ is very aware of their mobile problems and it is a very painful thorn in their side, internally that they really want to fix. - Jesse Stay
Pat: there's lots of bugs that have been fixed since Outlook 2003 but lots of new ones too, I'm sure. What specifically bugged you? I'll go and check. - Robert Scoble
Pat: I'm pretty sure that was improved in Outlook 2007, but am not sure. I'm not sure about in Outlook 2010, though. I need to uninstall it, because I need Outlook to sync with Google Calendar and that doesn't yet work. Sigh. - Robert Scoble
I've always found the ribbon more intuitive then Outlook interfaces of the past...however I'm back to GMail web and windows live hotmail....I've converted all my docs to open document format and if I really need a word processor, which I rarely use anymore these days there is OpenOffice.Org :) - John Blanton
John: Once you're on Gmail getting used to Google Docs instead of OpenOffice is a snap. - Robert Scoble
The customizable part of the O2007UI, where I can add my own flipping buttons (instead of hunting for them) is my friend. - MiniMage
You seem surprised they moved the chairs on the deck.. I don't know about you, but I had to help *lots of people* SHUT DOWN their Vista machines when they first got them!! Yeah yeah I know Start seems like a bad place for the shut down option.. but Millions of people had it figured out, and accepted it.. and then they moved it, Bloody Hell!! - Chris Myles
me to Gmail is all you need MS have left it too late - Thomas Power
I uninstalled Office 2007 then installed Office 2010 tech preview .. and now I can't activate ..were we supposed to be able to or not? I don't know. - John Blanton
Just found out from Microsoft Connect it really doesn't matter.. Even if it says Office 2010 is running in trial mode it really isn't .. Oh well bug filing time :) - John Blanton
Nir Ben Yona
What's Your Favorite Beer?
light beer.jpg
Mine are Stella Artois, Miller and Corona. - Nir Ben Yona
Very much enjoying dogfish head 60 minute IPA. I also like racer 5. - Ted Roden
Menabrea and Hoegaarden - alieb
Newcastle Brown Ale, Carlsberg and Hoegaarden - Rasmus Lauridsen
Invincible by the Irving Brewery, Fuller's (formerly Gale's) HSB, and Theakston's Old Peculiar. - Mark H
Bitburger, Erdinger, Weltenburg - did i mention that i like beer? ;) - Ronald
I've tasted so many beers. I'm trying to figure out if people drink their local beer or prefer others. - Nir Ben Yona
Rodenbach, Anchor Steam, Unibroue, Chimay - Mark Philpot
Heineken - Willem (@wim66) ☠
Uhmm Chimay shuld make my list also... - Rasmus Lauridsen
I think it depends on the season. Right now, probably Widmer Hefeweizen - Rodfather
I don't have a true favorite, but I like Newcastle Brown Ale, Smithwick's, Blue Moon, and the various Flying Fish beers. Default to Yuengling if nothing better is available. But I'll try anything at least once. - John (bird whisperer)
the gluten free one that tastes like crap, because at least it won't kill me. - Steve C, Team Marina
I really like Newcastle a lot, and Hoegaarden. I tend to like the Hefeweizens. - Derrick
Season drinking is an interesting issue, and If you happen to think you know so many beers, there's always a new brand that pops up in the wild. - Nir Ben Yona
"Riggwelter" by Black Sheep is a fine ale :) Lager wise, Sam Smiths "Alpine Ale" is nice too. Can't discount the real Budweiser too (Of the Budvar persuasion... not the American piss water ;) ) - alphaxion
I'm just now really getting into enjoying beer. Where's Ben? Is there a beer room? - Derrick
aye, those teetotalers don't know what they're missing. I'd also like to point out that if you're drinking with the only intent to get drunk, you're doing it wrong ;) - alphaxion
alphaxion: agreed on both :) - Nir Ben Yona
So Newcastle Brown Ale is known outside the UK. I didn't know that. Was the drink of choice of early clubbing because it was large (reduced queuing to get another) and you could stick a finger in the bottle to stop spilling while navigating through the heaving horde. In terms of British ales though it rates pretty far down the scale. You need to get your arses over here to a Real Ale festival. - Mark H
@mark also, because a bottle of dog is one of those protected produces (think champaign), it shouldn't legally be called Newcastle Brown Ale... they moved the brewery to Gateshead! - alphaxion
Rootbeer - RAPatton from iPhone
Wonder if we should do a "what brew are you drinking right now" meme... for me, it's a bottle of budvar.. with some super bok in the fridge :) - alphaxion
The best beer I have ever tasted was made in a Monastery high up on a mountain in BadKitzegen However I am partial to Hefe, Dunkel,. & some pilsner... I was stationed in Wurzberg back in 87... I learned to LOVE beer the right way lol. - The Catz Meow
@catz I had some Hefe last year when I was in Paris.. nice, fruity pale ale :) - alphaxion
Oh I love rogue.... especially their flat tire, and deadman... I lived in Newport Or for a year!!! LOVE those IPA's - The Catz Meow
Oh yes and i am absolutely with Mark *cheers* - Warsteiner, Wernesgruner, Radeberger and Czechvar - oops, we should have a FF beer party sooon haha :D - Ronald
Will it be correct saying that Brits prefer dark beers while Americans go with the bright ones? - Nir Ben Yona
nope, lager is the biggest selling (it's seen as the session beer of choice). But, there is still a strong market for milds, stouts and bitters. - alphaxion
Eichigo, Kirin, Four Peaks' AZ Peach, Sapporo - Lindsay
Christopher: thought Nashville is the one... - Nir Ben Yona
I'm kinda Jones-ing for Portland, Christopher. Thinking of making a trip up there soon. - Derrick
After dropping Mississippi from my list of potential visit spots in the US after a recent thread bemoaning how dull it was, it looks like I might be replacing it with Portland now. - Mark H
But Beware Oregon has one of the most strictest DUI Penalties...Tending bar there I saw it happen all too often. - The Catz Meow
Christoper: So I guess Milwaukee is history, in terms of Beer capital. - Nir Ben Yona
Mythos! the great Greek Lager - Demetrios the Traveller
Christopher: Nice view. I guess you live there, don't you? - Nir Ben Yona
I'm glad the British penchant for alcohol (I swear it must make up a portion of our genetic material by now!) helped rescue the US from the blandness of your bigger breweries. :) - alphaxion
The only thing I drank while in Greece was Ouzo and they drank it like tea! (I have family on Crete and Corfu) :) - The Catz Meow
ouzo is good next time add few drops to yr beer ...;-) - Demetrios the Traveller
alphaxion: watching you guys drinking before during and after a soccer match is quite overwhelming experience :) - Nir Ben Yona
lol I know ouzo is good sweety... I still drink it strained over ice. - The Catz Meow
something I'd recommend everyone attend at least once in their life - a real oktoberfest beer festival in either Germany or Belgium. - alphaxion
@nir you should watch the rugby and cricket fans then! Cricket is nothing more than an excuse for a several day long binge. It scares me to my core! - alphaxion
Oktoberfest in Munich... THE BEST EXPERIENCE I EVER HAD....!!! - The Catz Meow
just been in Oktoberfest two years ago :)) - Gilad Steinberger
this year Oktoberfest? Yes, as always *livin' in Bavaria* :)) - Ronald
the beers that i love the most - http://translate.google.com/transla... - Gilad Steinberger
Kilkenny and Kwak (Kwak is a Belgian beer which should be drink with a special glass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...) - Olivier
I attended one in Oostende, Belgium.. great fun, an elderly guy in our group was thought dead by the hotel staff (he was comatose from too much alcohol) and my dad was woken up to attend to it... the old guy scared the staff by answering his door. - alphaxion
Christopher: I haven't but Portland is one of those cities on my short list that I love to consider in relocation. They have weather that I like, a vibrant food scene, a nice art situation, great public transportation and they treat their gays and lesbians well. All stuff that matters to me. Thinking early September. - Derrick
Gilad: I was celebrating the Oktoberfest with some embassy people here. I guess it's not the same as going abroad but it was a lot of fun, and women started chasing the men and cut their ties. - Nir Ben Yona
Oops, that's a difficult question for me, since I'm selling 950 different kind of beers. I can choose for Närke Stormaktens Porter, but I love the 'mixture' of the Belgian Struise Brij & the Dutch Molen Brij, called Black Damnation, too. Than there are totally different German beers like the Keller of Brauerei Hummel in Merkendorf or Schumacher Alt from Düsseldorf. I also love the... more... - Ton Zijp
alphaxion: I can understand the rugby guys but Cricket? Really? LOL - Nir Ben Yona
Cricket and alcoholic excess were made for each other. - Mark H
Derrick, they also don't have a sales tax there! :) They do have a state lottery, great wine, seafood, and culture within the big cities. There is however a big drug problem there... (not talkin pot either) Their Meth epidemic was pretty bad when I lived there;. - The Catz Meow
Have to admit, I do notice a great similarity in liver abuse between cricket and baseball.. But yeah, cricket is nothing more than a few days of alcohol and feasting with some people attempting to compete in a sport in the background. It makes sense tho, the matches are so damn long, you gotta do *something* to pass the time ;) - alphaxion
I want to go to Oktoberfest in Germany! - ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Harpoon IPA! - mikepk
Newcastle, Bass, Guinness, oh and Smithwick's - Chieze Okoye
Beer is probably the most diversified drink ever made, maybe even more than wine. - Nir Ben Yona
Mac and Jack's African Amber Ale. Only available on tap around Seattle. - Aaron Brethorst
Me too Christopher!! and I still have 45 minutes!!! - The Catz Meow
I've been critical of Mayor Adams, but whatever. I was possible for him to get elected so that says something. The Catz Meow: Why did you leave? Not liking the meth problem so prevalent there in PDX, though. And I want a beer now. - Derrick
The free kind - Outsanity
Derrick: I lived on the coast, in a little house right down on the beach, cost me 1000 a month on the backside of the Yaquina Bay Lighthouse. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT. and I am a born and raised So Cal girl! I had to work two jobs Bar tending at night and the Log Yard for GP as a scale master 12 hours a day 5 days a week. Winter hit Newport and the tourists went away, and the Log yard I... more... - The Catz Meow
Thirsty as hell. No beer :( - Nir Ben Yona
Beer is Forbidden in iran, sigh - Amir
Delester :) - Tardid
Delester is a non-alcohol beer, right? - Nir Ben Yona
Delester Is Islamic beer! - Amir
i stopped drinking in any real quantity at the end of the 90s. this has necessitated a whole new group of friends to socialise with. - Big Joe Silenced
I don't really have a favorite favorite, as they seem to taste different depending on temperature, mood, location, food, etc, etc. I do like many different kinds really, many of them already mentioned. This is a most non-committal comment isn't it? Oh! I got it! Whatever Mark Krinsky likes, I'll go with that. - Adrian
A pint of Guiness always works for me. - Paul from BuddyFeed
Fat Tire. But my tastes vary from day to day. - Eric - Final Countdown
Bud Light. Actually it's Guinness or Corona w/lime. - That's So CAJ!
Hmm Fat Tire or Dead Mans Ale and free is good to :-) - John D Reasor
hmm William... you must like Rogue! lol I loved living just right down the road from their brewery. - The Catz Meow
I'm always finding new beers I enjoy. I like a nice dark stout, and also enjoy wheat beer. - Will Higgins™
Hoegaarden and Kronenberg 1664 - Patrick Jordan
Fullers ESB; Sierra Nevada Bigfoot; Stone Imperial Russian Stout; Paulaner Original Munich Premium Lager; Barbar; Kasteel... the list goes on. - Ian May
@cacarr one could argue that's around Seattle ;-) I did not know that though, so thanks for the info :) - Aaron Brethorst
St. Bernardus Abt 12 Quadrupel. http://beeradvocate.com/beer... - Zach Landes
Leinenkugel's....any of them. And Shiner Bock, of course...Shiner Black. - Joel Robert Perez
Blue Moon - Ronald S from iPhone
here are mine: http://friendfeed.com/drinks-... trappistes rochefort 10 is my pick - Carlos Ayala
Le Effe and Mac & Jack - Jeff (Team マクダジ ) from iPhone
+MVB - exactly! - Adrian
Very hard for me to answer. I don't really have a single favorite although I prefer Ale's and IPA's. Sierra Nevada is my usual goto beer but I like so many others. - Mark Krynsky
Rogue Dead Guy Ale. - Ben Hanten
A lot of votes for stout flavor. - Nir Ben Yona
Yeah. Well Stella is a Pilsner so I hear ya ;) - Nir Ben Yona
None! *insert shocked gasp here* Though I love walking into a pub and inhaling that beery smell. - Melly
Only one? I'll mention a few. Little Creatures Pale Ale, James Squire Pilsener, Redback, Asahi, Pure Blonde. - Bec Rowe @d0tski
Mine is Orval. - Djordje Lukic from iPhone
Perroni - Laurentiu
Beer? HAH. I drink vodka. - Chris Charabaruk
My favorite type...Wheat Beer. I enjoy Yuengling, Guinness, Sam Adams, Fat Tire. - Kreg Steppe
Czechvar, Stella Artois, Pilsner Urquell - andrei_c
Most any IPA. I like that hoppy bitter taste. - Martha
Hoegaarden witbier - Remo
Newcastle, Brooklyn Brown Ale (when i can find it), Liberty Ale, Guinness Extra Stout, Sam Adams Boston Lager, Beck's Dark, Saranac Black and Tan (I went to school not far from their brewery in Utica) - Mike Nencetti
Efes Pilsen - dino from iPod
Whichever one I'm drinking at the time? - MoTO Boychick Devil
This thread is responsible for me buying a 6 pack of Brooklyn Brown Ale, some of which will be enjoyed later this evening when it has had time to chill... Thank you! - Mike Nencetti
efes - Nucro
Think I'll try Newcastle Brown Ale, with so many people liking it. - Nir Ben Yona
Sandels - Neya
Corona - Michael Fidler
Robert Scoble
Wait a second the whole Amazon Kindle thing yesterday was ABOUT STOLEN property! That changes ALL the anti-Amazon arguments. More:
Those books were stolen property. Amazon had every right to delete them. Police will come into your house and take your TV if it was stolen. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Amazon had no right to sell those books to you in the first place. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Interesting to see who was anti-Arrington and anti-Amazon too. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
If you are anti-arrington you must be pro Amazon today. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Chris: yeah. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
The stolen TV analogy only goes so far since it was Amazon that was selling the stolen merchandise in the first place. I wonder how this has affected Kindle sales. - Justin Doub
If a printing company illegally produced copies of your book, you could rightly expect the rights-holder to go after them and even demand that unsold copies be destroyed but they certainly wouldn't demand to burn all copies sold to customers. See my comments here: http://www.torgo.com/blog... - Daniel Appelquist
You guys need to go to law school. If you buy stolen property from a store, you are the rightful owner of the goods. The police won't bother you. - Ward Mundy
Ward: is that true? I always thought that receiving stolen goods would get them taken from you. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
That's not to say Amazon wouldn't be liable for damages to the legitimate copyright holder. Just not the buyer in the ordinary course of business. - Ward Mundy
I disagree. Amazon should have found a way to work it out with the publisher (i.e. write a check). You should NEVER do what Amazon did. Pull it from the store, don't sell any new copies, fine. Don't yank content from a consumer's device. Ever. - Brian Baggett
Amazon is still at fault here, by the way. For selling something it didn't have the legal right to sell. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
We can all agree on that. :-) - Ward Mundy
George Orwell is rolling over in his grave. http://nerdvittles.com - Ward Mundy
Brian: I agree, and it looks like Amazon agrees now too but those arguments have less teeth today. By the way did you argue for or against TechCrunch publishing the stolen Twitter documents? - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Amazon should have communicated to their customers before taking any action. Amazon = Fail - paul mooney
Ward: Orwell has lots of reasons to roll over in his grave. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Paul: agreed. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Paul: I completely agree. Their actions caused uproar that could have been avoided by sending a clear message before preforming the pull. - Joshua
Amen, Big Bro. - Ward Mundy
Seeing the Twitter docs pop up over at Techcrunch felt ... "dirty". Just because you can doesn't mean you should. - Brian Baggett
Brian: lots of journalism is done with stolen info. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
It depends upon where you purchased the stolen goods. - Ward Mundy
Ward: even from a second hand store? - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Absolutely Brian, starting to read that I felt as if I were a part of some sort of espionage... I stopped reading. I think I may be done with Arrington/TechCrunch... :( - Trae Ruge
The real root of the anti-Amazon, anti-whoever, sentiment is that we all know copyright is broken and that these books SHOULD be free. - tollie williams
If the store is in the business of selling the type of goods you buy, then you are a buyer in the ordinary course and are protected. - Ward Mundy
Yeah, I realize that. The difference is when it's something like Watergate or exposing massive corporate fraud, that's one thing ... when it's exposing the inner thoughts of a company that's yet to make a dime ... it just seems senseless. Know what I mean? - Brian Baggett
Not to be pedantic, but it's important...it's not stolen property. It's a work under copyright sold w/o a license. There's a difference. "STOLEN PROPERTY" (in caps, no less) means you don't have the property anymore. That isn't the case here. It's still wrong, no question, and Amazon is in the process of working through this. But it's different, and it's complicated. All caps doesn't help. - Ken Kennedy
Robert re:"lots of journalism is done with stolen info." http://kara.allthingsd.com/2009071... - Ian Paul
Robert: Amazon isn't the police; remember the analogy; if Books Inc sold me an illicit copy of 1984, they have no right to come into my house to get it back; they'd have to follow a legal process to do that. - Stuart Liroff
Wouldn't the police need a warrant to come into my house and get the stolen property. I mean they couldn't just break into and then leave. That's what makes Amazon's action so bad, they made no attempt to inform the consumer of what they were doing. After all the consumer didn't know the item was stolen and had no reasonable expectation it was stolen. - Kim Landwehr
Oops...I capped the whole thing "ABOUT STOLEN". Sorry. I'll not edit above, but consider this my oopsie acknowledgement. - Ken Kennedy
Ken Kennedy: Excellent point and that isn't pedantic at all. - Brian Baggett
Ward, if you buy my stolen t.v. I have every right to get it back. Your money is gone and you could face charges for receiving stolen property, depending on the circumstances. - Kimber Scott from BuddyFeed
Ian: Kara is wrong there. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Ken: so if this isn't "stolen property" but content sold without out a license, doesn't that mean it was illegally obtained--at least by Amazon if not the end user? - Ian Paul
The end user asserted to Amazon that they had the rights to publish the work. - Ken Kennedy
I wonder if Amazon will ever start removing books from the kindle that you got from somewhere else, i.e. pirated content. - RobinDotNet
Robin: I doubt that. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
If somone took one of David Pogue's (the NYT writer that one of of the first to write about this), OCR'd it, put it up on Amazon via the Kindle's small authors publishing programs, and sold a couple thousand copies at $0.10 before Pogue figured out what was going on, what do you think he'd want to do? Leave them out there, or make Amazon take them back?? (I'm willing to bet $20 right here on the latter). - Ken Kennedy
Robert: I don't want to go too far off topic here, but why don't you buy the argument that there's a difference between taking company documents in the name of the public good versus a hacker doing a cyber B 'n' E? Wasn't the whole Twitter affair basically a case of prurient (okay, prurient isn't the right word here, but you get my drift) interest for the reading public? - Ian Paul
@Robin. There's no technological way to make sure that you don't have the right to that work. I think Amazon would be crazy to even try. - Ken Kennedy
Scoble: I absolutely believe the content providers won't put pressure on Amazon & Apple eventually to do just that ... - Brian Baggett
Robert i think you're conflating things again, maybe just to be a gadfly or "start a conversation," but you're equating things that aren't equal. Amazon thought they had the right to sell the book -- they didn't not *knowingly and wilfully* violate copyright. morally speaking, that is not the same kind of "crime" as buying something you KNOW is stolen from a self-admitted thief. - Karim
I misspoke. I meant to say "I absolutely believe the content providers will put pressure on Amazon & Apple eventually to do just that" - Brian Baggett
Ian: My public interest is your purient interest. - Robert Scoble from iPhone
Amazon's already said: "“We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers’ devices in these circumstances". Props for that...probably. But what happens when someone scarfs the next "Harry Potter-alike", uploads it with a slightly different name a day before release, sells TENS of thousands of copies before they're caught (because I bet lots of... more... - Ken Kennedy
Amazon made a mistake that had no financial benefit for the receiver of the goods. Arrington received stuff he *knew* was stolen and used it for page views. HUGE moral difference. - Karim
So they only remove content that *they* allow you to put on there illegally? That's good, bec. if Amazon did that, think what Apple could do to people's iPods... - RobinDotNet
Robert: Amazon had the right to _lawfully_ request the 1984 copies to be returned. They didn't have the right to commit a felony by "breaking and entering" in order to retrieve the property: Definition: "Entering can involve either physical entry by a person or the insertion of an instrument with which to remove property. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Stuart Liroff
Robert: maybe I don't see it the same because I am not a journalist, but I am a banker. If your information is stolen and sent to Tech Crunch et al. you would not want to see it posted I would imagine. Perhaps this isn't similar, but posting anything privat be it account balances, personal info, loan committee minutes, business dealings etc. they are all private information... - Trae Ruge
KenKennedy -- they could compare title against copyright availability. - RobinDotNet
I'm still dismayed about the reports that some books can only be downloaded a specific number of times, and that's not documented. Anybody had any problems downloading books repeatedly? (I have 2 kindles, and use iPhone kindle app too). - RobinDotNet
Robert: I think we'd need a new thread to keep this discussion going. I just can't believe that the Twitter info was in the public interest. - Ian Paul
Robin: Why would you want to download books repeatedly anyway? - Ian Paul
@Stuart: C'mon. This wasn't a masked Amazon employee in your bedroom. It's a wireless device that you authorize (and in fact expect them) to move stuff around on. You agree to a lengthy terms at purchase. Amazon can't agree to give you rights to a permanent copy of something that they don't have the rights to give you period. - Ken Kennedy
IanPaul: I might want to download it to multiple kindles. But sometimes I download a book, read it, and remove it, so my list isn't so cluttered, since they don't let you folder them. - RobinDotNet
Robin's comment brings up a good point: http://medialoper.com/hot-top... - Brian Baggett
Isn't it ironic that the books by Orwell were deleted. "He who controls the past, controls the future" is the party slogan of the govt. in 1984. Maybe Amazon thought they could go back and change history too. - Robert
BrianBaggett -- I agree, they should disclose it. I feel like I need to back up the files from my kindle to my PC just in case. Because you CAN copy them off, then copy them back on there, yourself. - RobinDotNet
Oh, the Orwell irony I think is "great" (note the quotes). It's part of what gave this story legs, IMO. - Ken Kennedy
Ken: If the perception is you're buying something from Amazon rather than renting it, then it is unreasonable. Obviously, they just made clear to anyone who wasn't sure that you own nothing on the device; you're just renting. - Brian Baggett
Robin: I see. Can the Kindle sync with your computer or a memory card and you can put them on your hard drive instead? I don't have a Kindle, just interested to hear how it works . - Ian Paul
@Brian @Robert I wholeheartedly agree...back up your files. It's trivial. - Ken Kennedy
Robert -- It would have been ironic if it happened with Fahrenheit 451 !! - RobinDotNet
IanPaul -- you can connect it to your compute and see the files, and just copy them off to your PC or wherever. - RobinDotNet
They can reclaim stolen property, but they would tell you, they wouldn't just steal it back from you secretly. - RobinDotNet
@Brian The Ars Technica article is good on this: http://arstechnica.com/tech-po... Amazon does consider that you have a permanent license; it's no "rental". But...(and there's always a but in contracts), it can't give you a license to something it doesn't have rights to license! That's what happened. - Ken Kennedy
Whoever said stolen property can't be taken away is wrong. In California, receiving stolen property is punishable by the law and often includes jail time. Even if you didn't know it was stolen and paid for the item. It can and will be taken by the law and held as evidence until a hearing or trial. - Marc Flores
It's NOT stolen property. It's unlicensed property. And the short answer is Amazon should have bought a license for the number of copies they already had sold. - Ward Mundy
If you buy a book from a book store, you have an absolute right to keep the book whether it was originally stolen or not. - Ward Mundy
If you buy a stolen book from somebody on the street corner, you do not have a right to keep the book. - Ward Mundy
Ken, Amazon's License and Terms of Use clearly gives the purchaser the non-exclusive rights to keep a permanent copy of the digital content on your device; nowhere does it give Amazon the right to delete it. http://www.amazon.com/gp... - Stuart Liroff
Why worry about the stolen property statues of 50 states? This isn't a big-screen TV! @Ward, that's not a bad idea (short answer), except a) what if I don't WANT to license my work, for any price. You can't make me. b) after the fact, maybe I am willing to license to Amazon...for $100,000 a pop. - Ken Kennedy
@Stuart: I know, since I quoted that about 2 minutes ago. *grin* But they can't license stuff they don't have a license to license! - Ken Kennedy
"Copies of copyrighted works CANNOT BE REGARDED AS STOLEN PROPERTY for the purposes of a prosecution under a statute criminalizing the interstate transportation of such property." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Karim
You might also search for Buyer in Ordinary Course under UCC which applies in most states. http://bit.ly/49QRid - Ward Mundy
So do those who bought 1984 have the legal standing to launch a class action suit against Amazon? A case that like that could have some serious implications for the future treatment of digital content. - Ian Paul
I still don't see why Amazon deleted the books from the Kindle. Apple doesn't do the same thing for their apps. Kindle may be okay, but I'm sticking with Stanza on the iPhone for now. - darnell from BuddyFeed
So wait. I unknowingly buy a book from a store that doesn't know it's stolen. The store owner realizes it was stolen, comes to my house, breaks in and takes the book back? Since when does he have the right to do that? The police, probably. The store owner? Definitely not. - shandel from iPhone
shandel, the police can't enter your home to retrieve stolen goods without 1) your permission, or 2) a search warrant issued by a court. So what Amazon did was purely breaking and entering, unless their TOS said they could do so. - Jeff P. Henderson
You do not own the kindle downloads. Amazon licenses them to you. - russellcoleman
Yes, you own a license to the books. Where is it stated that Amazon has a right to yank your license? - Jeff P. Henderson
@Jeff: That's the point; you own a bogus license...what does that give you? Amazon didn't have a legitimate license. Orwell's estate pointed that out; they had no choice but to stop selling. I imagine Amazon's interpretation of the TOS is that you never had a legitimate license either. They appear to be changing that interpretation now, based on feedback. - Ken Kennedy
Ken, there is something called due process that should have been used in order to right the wrong. Amazon should not have 'broken in' and taken the books back. They should have used the proper legal procedures for doing so if that was their best resolution to the problem. - Jeff P. Henderson
Disagree Scoble. This is not about STOLEN property. This is about censorship and the rights of individuals. This is about TYRANNY pure and simple. - Richard
The Kindle is a nascent, emerging technology (sure e-book readers have been around for years, but like the iPod was to MP3 players, this is to e-books) and Amazon should do everything in their power to not leave a bad taste in consumer's mouths. Period. That 'kill switch' should be for viruses or malicious trojans or something that is really a problem. - Brian Baggett
In a case like this, the publisher should've worked behind the scenes with Amazon to license the books. If the publisher wouldn't budge, Amazon could've had the courtesy to email or post a notice on what the publisher was asking them to do. The widespread ill-will would've shifted from Amazon in a heartbeat. They could've spun this blunder into a PR opportunity if they were smart ("The big bad publisher wants us to delete your content, but we said no ...") - Brian Baggett
@Brian --- It's not any of my (or Amazon's) business why Orwell's estate (or anyone else) does or doesn't want to license electronic distribution. I personally think it's short-sighted for people not to do so, but that doesn't mean I think leaning on them the way you're describing is a good idea. Heck, I'd be MORE pissed w/ Amazon if they sent a letter like that. That's them using mob... more... - Ken Kennedy
@Brian -- there are lots of (academic, for example) works that I'd like to see on the Kindle that aren't there. I unfailingly click the "I'd like to see the on the Kindle" button, and I hope Amazon does something with it. I've even emailed authors and publishers directly. But I DON'T hope that someone rips them off and publishes things illegally, giving Amazon leverage to send "big bad publisher" letters. - Ken Kennedy
@Ken - Had Amazon *intentionally* sold something it wasn't licensed to sell, sure they should be held accountable. However, a publisher they deal with sold Amazon something that *they* didn't own. That's not Amazon's fault; the ill will should be focused at the publisher who sold it to Amazon rather than Amazon playing copyright-cop. - Brian Baggett
"MobileReference, the publisher in question, formats and sells public domain books on Amazon. The only problem is that George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984 are not yet in the public domain, at least not in the US. According to Amazon's statement to Ars Technica, "These books were added to our catalog using our self-service platform by a third-party who did not have the rights to the books." -- http://bit.ly/Depgj - Brian Baggett
I really think Amazon's learnt a very important lesson today. I guess the kindle marketplace is a nascent one, and a new foray for Amazon into DRM-encumbered file distribution. One would assume this will not happen again. - Bryce Roney from iPod
Do I have to be anti either? - Jesse Stay from iPhone
Robert Scoble 2009: "Wait a second the whole Amazon Kindle thing yesterday was ABOUT STOLEN property! That changes ALL the anti-Amazon arguments." Philip Mauro, 1906: "All talk about dishonesty and theft in this connection from however high a source is the merest claptrap for there exists no property in ideas musical, literary or artistic except as defined by statute." - Loryn Jenkins
Another point: this story has nothing in particular to do w/ the DRM on Kindle files. The "big deal" is the always-on (by default) connection that you don't often think about, since you don't pay monthly for it. WhisperNet is convenient, but that convenience has a downside. File DRM isn't the issue is b/c Amazon can and does sell ebooks w/o DRM; I bought a Kindle copy Mur Lafferty's... more... - Ken Kennedy
DRM isn't exclusive to a file; DRM can be an aspect of the hardware. - Brian Baggett
Valid point, Brian. But the Kindle isn't really DRM'd in a direct hardware sense...it mounts as a drive if you connect it to a USB port, and you can drag off the files. Most people don't, but there's absolutely nothing stopping you. I backup all my purchases (and yes, that includes stripping the encryption; I have unencrypted backups of all my books). If Amazon made it impossible for... more... - Ken Kennedy
@Brian...just saw your earlier comment: "the ill will should be focused at the publisher who sold it to Amazon". I agree 110%; sorry if it seemed otherwise. There's an argument that could be made that the complicated nature of copyright makes this stuff confusing (ie, the fact that these books are in the public domain in Canada, Australia, and Russia already), but that's no excuse. If... more... - Ken Kennedy
Amazon clearly violated federal "computer tampering" laws. See http://cid-c072ace4f752027c.sp... - Brian K. Stanley, Att'y
"Mr Poole, a coach driver from Sowton, said 15 family and friends had come to the event, where they were watched by a police helicopter for about 15 minutes. He said before they had turned on the music, four police cars and a riot van arrived and demanded the barbecue was shut down and everyone leave." - Gabe from Bookmarklet
This is some scary shit. - Alex Scrivener
omfglolwtfbbq! - k00pa
In 2003 or 2004, I was invited to a rave. The rave was in some pudunk town in the middle of nowhere. It was in the middle of a forest and the driveway to it was about a mile long. At the start of the driveway, there was a sign that said "HAPPY BIRTHDAY so and so" with balloons. I don't believe that the music could have even been heard at the start of the driveway. The cops must have found out about it because there were so many people in their tiny town. Anyway, the cops broke it up and we had to leave - Becca
pics at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news... -- story there adds the police were in camos and body armor. whatever happened to the Monty Pythonesque stereotype of the lone constable striding into an event and asking, "'ello, 'ello, what's all this, then?" :-D - Karim
I love how the cops' defense is that if they had waited longer it would have required more cops to bust up the birthday party if they had waited longer. - Gabe
On a meta level - isn't that an argument against relying on the power of "the Internet" for advertising upcoming public, but potentially "authority-unfriendly" events? I seem to recall at least one such small-scale do called Woodstock that relied on word-of-mouth alone, and, judging from the pictures, they didn't do all that badly. - ianf ⌘
ianf: Woodstock was originally a big failure. Hippies showed up by the thousands hoping to get in free. Advance ticket sales were so poor that the organizers only had enough money to build either a stage or a fence. They ended up with a stage and no way to keep out the freeloading masses. - Gabe
You're missing the point (on purpose? what purpose might that be). They showed up by the thousands without being connected to the Internet. - ianf ⌘
in fact Vint Cerf was at Woodstock and it was there he said that "Man, organizing something like this would be a whole lot easier if there was, I don't know, some kind of universal packet-switched network, that you could tap into from anywhere, it would transcend space and time, it would reach out to the planets, can you dig? I just have to figure out how to get the Department of Defense to pay for it..." Then he started giggling. - Karim
ianf: I'm not sure what you're getting at. Woodstock was a huge production, with ads in the New York Times and Rolling Stone, among other places. As opposed to raves, they had permits and did things mostly by-the-book. - Gabe
Gabe, have you seen the trailer for the new Ang Lee film, "Taking Woodstock?" http://www.filminfocus.com/focusfe... -- it sort of implies a little more of a loosey-goosey setup than "mostly by-the-book." i don't know if it's historically accurate or not... - Karim
Karim: I haven't seen the trailer. I didn't mean to imply that it was well-organized, just that it was all legal. There was such significant local opposition that it seems likely that it couldn't have happened if anything illicit was going on. - Gabe
John (bird whisperer)
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Cornwall | Jogger injured in buzzard attack - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Cornwall | Jogger injured in buzzard attack
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Cornwall | Jogger injured in buzzard attack
"This is not the first time that buzzards - which can weigh up to 1kg and have a 1m (39in) wingspan - have attacked people in the south west of England. There have been a number of incidents involving a large bird attacking cyclists in north Devon. Two years ago Cornishman Euan Mahey was left covered in blood after a bird, thought to be a buzzard, sank its talons into his head." - John (bird whisperer) from Bookmarklet
Good reason to wear a helmet! - John (bird whisperer)
as if we needed another reason! - edythe
also, if a buzzard attacked me, i'd start worrying about my current state of health. - edythe
hehe - the guy wondered if the buzzard thought he was a really slow moving rabbit...:D - WoH: Professor MOTHRA
An awfully big rabbit! :-D - John (bird whisperer)
Meh, I misread that as "blizzard attack", at first. :( - Tyson Key
shoot, that bird needs well... shooting - Ian May
I thought our Aussie magpies were bad - this is horrifying! - Melly
Jeepers!! - Kevin J Hatton
I think pretty much any raptor will do this if it perceives someone as being too close to its nest site or its fledglings. - John (bird whisperer)
why does that 2nd picture look like a screencap from "Half-Life" - Karim
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