Yoono - Likes - FriendFeed

FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more »

CNBC says that the average CEO in the U.S. makes 400x the average worker. In hte UK it's 30x the average worker. Should the U.S. Govt impose restrictions or much higher taxes on executive compensation?

March 24 - Comment - Like - Share

Mrsth, Vinay | विनय, Tate DA FF MVP and 45 other people liked this

the US govt should stay out of it. The Boards should be controlling this better, and it maybe it should be put out to the shareholders? - clarke thomas

111 more comments

Wouldn't that be legislating the outcome instead of legislating the fairness of the opportunity? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

absolutely sickening! the Board of Directors are the problem as well - they're all working together to increase each other's salaries thru the roof. Most board members are CEOs of other companies. I don't know how they sleep at night while they're laying off the $30k/year employee! - planetMitch

The boards do not function as intended. They are incestious and self serving to management. The board is supposed to be one of the checks and balances inside a corporation for the benefit of the shareholder. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

If there's enough public outcry, corporations could be forced to change their tune - without legislation. There's a sense in the business community that if you CAN make that much money, then you DESERVE it. I blame objectivist thinking. - Jennifer Dittrich

Well, when the CEO and board constitute the majority of the share holders, it's easy enough to line your pockets on both ends, don't you think? It's a bit naive to think a board of directors will always work to the benefit of the faceless shareholders rather than to themselves. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Are you going to limit how much stock they also get? - Alex Scoble

But Tina, if the board is indeed the majority stock holder, collectively, wouldn't it behoove them to make a rising stock price, and thus a profitable corporation, their highest priority? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

I'd like to point out that the UK press is complaining about executive pay now. So really there's no logic behind their complaint, It's simply feeding people what they want to hear. An eat-the-rich movement forms whenever there's a downturn. Even completely private companies are coming under fire. - Steven Cains

I have a hard time saying that direct control via legislation is the right answer, on the other hand it really is outrageous. I think that shareholders should revolt, it is after all coming out of their profit. - TranceMist

I would think that the highest priority of a corporation is to provide a valued service to their customers. If you put making money ahead of that you end up doing neither in the long run. - Alex Scoble

Right now there seems to be a belief that CEOs are worth the high salaries. The companies argue that to attract a top-notch CEO, they have to pay a competitive salary. If the majority of companies are paying multi-million dollar exec. packages, then that up the stakes and increases pressure on all companies. I'd like to see some studies that link CEO pay to CEO performance. Shareholder outrage is not nearly big enough yet, in my opinion. - Stephen Mack

Absolutely. And like Mark mentions, it is even in their best interest to give themselves a lower compensation, because it then increases the profit. Sure, it's marginal, but at the same time it sends a more positive message to the workforce who they are trying to squeeze out of any penny. - Rene Wirtz

Mark, is the only way to make money on stock in the market when it's on the rise? Nope. In that case, the question becomes which motivation is stronger: make money now for yourselves (i.e. shorts on a tanking stock) or make money in the long run for a larger group of people (i.e. drive the company to ever higher stock prices). Which one has the potential to garner the highest profit to the individual the quickest? - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

... sigh... You forget my philosophy that longterm, incremental corporate growth based entirely on providing a quality product or service for a proper price is the only real way to run any business. Else, how do you meet, or even plan, your 25 and 50 year goals? Sorry, I'll put that in my FriendFeed bio for future referrence... - MVB (Grinch of FF)

If you are running a company for the short term instead of as an ongoing concern, just divy out all the profits as a dividend and shut the damn thing down. Otherwise, its fraud to benefit only some shareholders and leave others in the dark. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

Mark, I know that is your philosophy. But do you really think that is everyone's philosphy? Do you really think that chair positions or members of the board are in it for the 25 year haul, much less the 50 year haul? The average tenure for a CEO in 2006 was 8.3 years; 40% of them left after two years or less. http://www.boston.com/busines... Doesn't that tell you something? - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

@clarke thomas - Aren't most CEO's board members? - LarchOye

I agree, Tina, that what you wrote is exactly the problem. I'll go a step farther and say this problem is systemic and symptomatic of a larger problem: lack of shame for doing something wrong. But the original post, legislating the outcome, is not the right answer. - MVB (Grinch of FF)

Why do you care? It's not your money (unless some crooked politician changes that). People should run their business however they want - how much they pay, how much they charge. Let the market determine the value. - You.

But Dave, that IS my money. I buy power from the power company because I have to (since I cannot afford a solar system). Same goes for water. Or my Ford car. Being overcharged by the power company DOES affect my money, and moreover I'm not allowed to buy that good from another provider. And Mark: the options are to legislate against the cause (lack of shame) or the symptom (greedy board... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Exactly, Dave. If I am not an investor nor an employee it is none of my usiness how any corporation is run. - MVB (Grinch of FF)

If you legislate the outcome what is the motivation to excel beyond average? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

It's not your money. It *was* your money. You exchanged it for a service or a good. That's how we allocate resources. The profit motive creates incentive for more entities to come into the market and that competition drives down the price. It's not a perfect system, but it's the most efficient one invented. What you're talking about is price fixing. It has never worked and never will. Remember gas lines? That was because the government fixed prices and distorted the market. - You.

You think things are unpleasant now, wait until there are shortages. At least now you can ration your usage yourself instead of having it imposed on you by a central authority. - You.

To receive beyond average returns. It's possible to get above average returns without knowingly and willingly screwing over the rest of the shareholders, workers, and the consumers don't you think? If it's not, then there's something seriously wrong with capitalism if it requires you to be greedy asshole to 'win'. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

@Mark, most people are actually investors though, even if passive through things like 401k mutual funds. Anyone who owns an S&P 500 Index fund is a very small investor in the 500 stocks that make up that index and has a vested interest in ensuring that their interests are protected. - Thomas Hawk

Government should have no business in business. - Palak Mathur

If boards in privately held companies choose to reward their management in insane ways, that's their business. For publicly held companies or monopolistic entities like utilities, it's a completely different ballgame. I always liked Ben & Jerry's early policy, before they sold out, that said the highest paid employee (them) couldn't make more than 10x the lowest; so, if they wanted a... more... - Bob M. Montgomery from twhirl

Don't forget that companies are supposed to be investing in things that will reap better profits in the future. Giving an executive a massive salary was supposed to be justified because they brought awesome talent and direction to a company, leading to gains that couldn't be seen without that talent. In reality, it seems that is not the case the vast majority of the time. So, time to spend that money on investments that actually matter or give it back to the shareholders. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

I would rather legislate against the obvious conflicts of interest. For a public company, we shouldn't have the same person be CEO and Chairman. - Mistletoe Glen

Tina, if there is a law that says I can only receive the same compensation as George, even though my production clearly is greater than George, what is my motivation to do so? And @Thomas I recently read somewhere that less than 50% of the US population owns stock in any capacity. That's a lot of people who don't, and, I would wager, those are the ones being rounded up on buses and taken to protests. - MVB (Grinch of FF)

That's reductionist and naive, Palak. I for one am glad my government has laws as to who can enter into business as a doctor or accountant, or about how clean restaurants and barber shops are. You think those laws were enacted for fun? No, it's because someone decided to get away with something by pretending to be a doctor or not paying a janitor to clean the kitchen. They cut corners and tried to run a crappy business. Government intervened in the interest of the consuming public. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Mark, I'm not seeing where anyone has said person A can only receive the same compensation as person B. They have suggested that position A can only make up to X times as much money as position B. You're motivation then is to see that position A offers you an X times bigger salary than your current position B, work towards that new position, attain it, and then do something crazy: maintain adequate performance to keep that position and the corresponding salary. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

The original question by Thomas, Tina: "Should the U.S. Govt impose restrictions or much higher taxes on executive compensation?" Does this not suggest limiting the compensation regardless of production? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

I don't care how much the CEO's are making I think the real crime is that we have failed miserably at maintaining livable wages at the low and middle end of the spectrum. I used to work at Best Buy and actually knew my shit and sold about $30,000 dollars worth of merchandise a day, and you are telling me I was worth only 7 dollars an hour? - Geoff Schultz

Imposing restrictions does, higher taxation does not. Higher taxation results in compensation that rises with something similar to a logarithmic curve, rather than a direct 1 to 1 or exponential curve. Higher taxation means it's still always possible to make more money than you do now. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

No, you were overqualified for BestBuy. You don't work there anymore. Your labor was reallocated by the market, presumably where it could be used to better effect. The profit motive is usually reponsible for that. - You. from BuddyFeed

Geoff, that started in 1945 when the boys came home from the war and the girls wanted to continue working. Employers soon learned that they could lower or stagnate wages and still have a large pool from which to choose employees. Go ahead and reverse that trend... - MVB (Grinch of FF)

3 day work week please!!! - Geoff Schultz

If they make 400x the average worker, then they probably make 500x what I make. Stupid non-profit private higher education job. - Derrick

For those who say no: results speak volumes. The way things are now does not work. Time to try something different. - Steven Perez

If customers don't like how the money they give a company trickles only to the top, and there are other competitors those customers can switch to, they'll switch. Personally, I have to agree with @needcaffiene; this is a matter for individual companies to deal with, and not something that needs any kind of legislation. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

If people are outraged by this, then they should stop supporting companies with such a wide spread between salaries at the top and bottom. Complaining about it and demanding legislation just makes for a bigger problem, a bigger mess. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

A lot of people opining on this issue, not just in this thread, seem to be forwarding the notion that if a CEO, any CEO, has money, he obtained it through ill-gotten means. This is troubling. - Mattb4rd

@Steven: it does work in the long run, but it doesn't eliminate downturns in the economy. It's not a perfect system but it's far far better than the alternative. Centralized economies do not work (history is littered with examples). Hell, it's how we beat the Soviets. Free markets do work, but they're not a magic bullet. - You.

That's exactly my point, Dave: there *is* no magic bullet. Capitalism works great to a point, just like socialism is ok to a point, etc. None of them are fool-proof (or perhaps I should say humanity proof). The only system that will leave us with the fewest possible number of starving and disenfranchised people (who, historically, start bloody revolutions) is a blended system. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

I hear you. I just don't agree with you. :) I believe (and I think history bears me out on this) that capitalism results in far greater standard of living for everyone. Worse, we put government in a position to make decisions for us. It's a sacrifice of liberty. (Man, this is a fantastic discussion!) - You.

I disagree, David. The strictest form of pure capitalism we had in the US was from the Industrial Revolution until the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed in 1938. Before then a company essentially had carte blanche on who they could hire, what to pay them, how long to work them, etc. Capitalism at its purest. And what was the result? Indentured servitude, 14 hour work days, and... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

the GOVT needs to butt out - Jeff (the マクダジ of FF)

Would legislating the outcome stifle innovation? Research? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

The thing is, from reading Adam Smith, capitalism can't exist without a robust government as free of corruption as possible. - Victor Ganata

I'm not a complete free marketer, I'll concede your point about FLSA and such. I'm not advocating rolling that back. That said, I don't think that makes your case for govt ownership of enterprise, setting wage limits, fixing prices, etc. - You.

Did regulation stop the pharmaceutical companies, Mark? Getting a new drug approved by the FDA is one of the most impossible tasks known to man (right up there with getting pee off the back of the toilet), but they still funnel billions into pharmaceutical research every year. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

I'm not trying to make a case for government ownership of enterprise, Dave, I'm simply trying to make a point: humans are, as a general rule, greedy bastards. This one trait is the reason why neither pure capitalism nor pure communism ever work out properly. It's not something we're going to be able to change about humanity, so what's the benefit in ignoring the fact that it exists?... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Corporations have to compete with each other for CEOs. If Corp A is paying $5 million for a CEO, Corp B has to pay more than that to hire him away. Look at professional athletes, they get payed grossly more for their worth to society because they are scarce and can make more income for an organization. Signing a shortstop who get high and plows his car into a bus load of nuns or a CEO that runs down the stock price are both bad decisions and cost their organizations money. - Robert Hafer

I think you and I have vastly differing perspectives on the competence and integrity of government. The shareholders have a very easy remedy - remove them. Or not, it's their company to do with as they wish. And being the greedy bastards they are, they'll be doing their damndest to maximize their earnings. Those billions of micro-decisions are much more effective than any bureaucrat ever could be. - You.

Dave, the problem is that information and power between management and shareholders is far from symmetrical. - LogEx

I know, the shareholders call all the shots - what's up with that? ;) - You.

Our views aren't so different Dave: government is full of greedy bastards too. However, we as voters have the equal wherewithal to disincent greed in government. As consumers, my voting dollars don't carry nearly as much weight as that CEOs.... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

IT BEGS THE QUESTION. WHAT'S NEXT? - lou

We should all get paid the same wage no matter what job we do or how well we do it. And we should live on collective farms, powered by green energy, and grow our own feed. And we should all be free to pursue our personal artistic visions, especially after we harvest our food. - Mistletoe Glen

So you're saying we should live in the future world of Star Trek, Glen? ;-) As I said in an earlier comment: communism doesn't work either, and again it's because humans are greedy. No one is happy with five potatoes when they can beat you up, take yours, and have ten potatoes. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Not sure I get your point. Collectively, our consumer dollars have a much bigger (and immediate impact) than votes, which only come periodically. Worse, government reacts to a vocal and motivated minority and the majority get screwed (ethanol as an example). But I still don't think I get your point. - You.

Glen Campbell is a communist? - Alex Scoble

No. - Joey Gibson

If we're going to live in a world of Star Trek, we're going to have to wear weird unitards. that's a bummer. - You.

Dave, read "The Tyranny of the Market". Does a pretty good job of showing that whichever system you go with, free market or one person one vote, a subset of the population is going to get screwed and not have their needs met. As for the immediate collective impact of consumer dollars: that's true, IF all those dollars have the same interests. You can pool all the consumer dollars of the... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

And the unitard would be a small price to pay for the holodeck... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Nice straw man you have there Glen. Is that all you got? No wonder you right wingers have so miserably failed. - Jeff Jones

I think there should be a limit, but I don't see this as a place the gov't should be interfering. I'd *like* it to be a law because I know people are greedy, but such a law just wouldn't be "right" - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

The trouble has been stated before... Boards are incestuous and made up of CEOs and CFOs of other companies and thus have a vested interest in keeping the salaries for those positions very high. Put an end to that and the problem goes away. Boards should be made up of representatives from Management, shareholders, and labor in equal amounts. Cap Executive dollar compensation and allow unlimited stock options with the offer price set as the value of the stock on the day they begin work. - Jeff Jones

I'll make you a deal. If you read Economic Fallacies, I'll read Tyranny of the Market. :) Yes, I will put it on my reading list. - You.

Jeff, that explanation doesn't make sense to me. How do the shareholders fit into that explanation? Is Warren Buffet just not that sharp? Or he doesn't mind giving away his money? - You.

It's like ransoms for kidnaps. Once one person is willing to pay 10 million to save someone, pretty soon every kidnapper wants 10 million. - Alex Scoble

Perhaps for CEO's and star atheletes we need to use a different metric. If a star player or a CEO is directly responsible for generating , say, oh, $100 Million in revenue, would a 10% commission be way out of line? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

Alex, no one has been kidnapped here though, that would only be appropriate analogy if there was one and only one exec for a position. Why doesn't the prisoners dilemma apply? - You.

I'm a Methodist. - Mistletoe Glen

If the lowest paid person in the organization is only making $14k a year, then yes, Mark, I believe it should be out of line. Why is it that CEOs are paid much less (most under $1 mil) in Japan and yet they still kick our asses when it comes to building cars or electronics? Yeah sure their banking system has been sucking wind for years, but then again so is ours, so what exactly is paying CEOs ridiculous salaries gaining us? - Alex Scoble

It seems, without doing the research, the the US is more innovative and inventive. It seems then, that by limiting compensation artificially we would also limit the innovation. Just writing out loud, here, mind you. Would I have started my own company, been able to hire people at high wages and change a few industry practices if there was no financial benefit to do so? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

I don't consider someone who's a business owner to be the same as a CEO, even if you call yourself that. The big difference there is that as a business owner you will normally not take risks that could potentially kill the business as that means you lose what you've built. A CEO doesn't own the company and even if they have some stake in it in the form of shares, that stake is still typically so small vs the total worth of the company, that the bind of ownership isn't there. - Alex Scoble

Mark, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe it's now "was", not "is", as in "the US *was* more innovative and inventive." - Victor Ganata

Alex and Victor you both have valid points. I keep making the mistake that other business owners are not wholly vested in their companies, as I am. I also forget that there are many people for whom personal acheivement and failure mean nothing. Clearly there are problems. Not so clear are the solutions. - MVB (Grinch of FF)

How does this compensation compare to athletes? - LPH™ and his dog P™

Limiting executive compensation is inevitable IMHO. - sean808080

The average worker in the US last year made $61,500 (gross). 400 times that amount is 24.6 Million. The average CEO in the US does not make that much money a year. The average CEO last year made $125,736 (gross). CNBC is just trying to make headlines. Come on people ... with the data we have available you should be able to see through a fluff piece. - Brandon

You got that right, Mark. Any set of solutions will have drawbacks and unintended consequences. Plus you'll never be able to get it done right given the political framework. Not to mention we don't have any control over how foreign companies do things...I imagine that such caps would just cause companies to move to corporate safe havens overseas. - Alex Scoble

Even if it's not 400x, the proportion is still far more disparate than between the average Japanese CEO and the average Japanese worker. I realize it's mainly a cultural thing, so I doubt limitations will ever catch on here in the U.S. - Victor Ganata

Two things: 1. Alex your last phrase is spot on. What is stopping Exxon or Steelecase from openning an office in Switzerland? We need to be careful of that, as well. 2. Why are we all excited about something from CNBC? They've proven they are not a news source and only for entertainment value ;) - MVB (Grinch of FF)

Brandon -- I think this was referring to "large" companies and likely included full and part time workers (http://money.cnn.com/2007... discusses similar numbers for 2007). I am not sure exactly what measure they are using for "large" ( maybe Fortune 500?) - Brian Sullivan

Whenever the Government tries to force the market (eg price fixing), it fails; the longer it takes, the more dramatic the failure. When Government regulates the process (eg reporting requirements), it can have limited success. - Robert Hafer

Dave, consider 'Economic Fallacies' on my list, I appreciate the recommendation. And to Brandon, may I ask where you got the fact that the average US worker made 61.5K gross last year? The only place I'm seeing something similar is on WikiAnswers with no backing information. I ask because according to PayScale.com the average US attorney makes about 76k gross, and somehow I don't... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Median HOUSEHOLD is $50K? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

I don't think imposing restrictions on executive pay would necessarily help. The ultimate problem with large corporations in America is that the executives run the company for the benefit of themselves, not the shareholders. Corporate governance and transparency need to be fixed, I think. - Andrew C

Here you go, MVB http://www.census.gov/Press-R... Like with real estate it's all location, location, location "For smaller places (65,000 to 249,999 people), Pleasanton, Calif., had among the highest median household income ($113,345), while Youngstown, Ohio ($24,941) had among the lowest." - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

From what I've read today, the biggest problem with corporations is that the US Supreme Court ruled in 1886 that private corporations are 'natural persons' and therefore entitled to the same rights as individual citizens. - Greg Guitarbuster

Yeah, that makes no sense to me, Greg. They shouldn't be afforded rights as individuals. - Alex Scoble

This ratio has grown far out of proportion. Compensation levels are as inequitable as feudalism. People don't realize that part of the psychology behind the success of firms like Apple where the CEO makes a dollar and gets stock, is that every associate feels that the purpose of the company is greater than just financial rewards, or at least short term gain, and the company's long term growth is the best for the top and the bottom of the pyramid. - Phil Boiarski

@Greg, you are right there. It presents some unique challenges to redressing wrongs when a huge, lawyer-rich organization can blow the small fry out of the courtroom. - Phil Boiarski

Sorry I was away. I still am trying to digest that families are living on those incomes. Please forgive me for being dismayed by this and being unaware. God, now I feel like an elitist... - MVB (Grinch of FF)

Yes - orionstarr

Well if I was a CEO making 400x the average worker in my company, I would definitely cut some of what I make to save good workers instead of keeping my wasteful salary and firing someone worst off... - Kyle Weller

Kyle, you wouldn't be a CEO if you did that. For 99% of all large companies, that's exactly counter to the last 20 years of executive behavior and expectation, sadly. - Bob M. Montgomery from twhirl

"sadly" .. Hmm. Folks, what is it that these "evil" CEO's do with their money? Do you think that they put it in a mattress, or /ahem, a deep freezer? No - they invest it or spend it, either of which contributes to the economy. Engage in emotion if you insist by stating "sure, by having us paint his house and install his pool?", but there are painters and other tradesmen living life to the fullest as a result of this work, which they enjoy. - Mattb4rd

... furthermore, the dilution of that income in the form of wealth redistribution will have a reduced effect commensurate with that dilution. Everyone can't be rich, but everyone can be happy. It's far easier for a camel to penetrate the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Be careful what you wish for. - Mattb4rd

even further than that .. for you people that scoff so readily at the concept of trickle down economics, what on Earth do you call redistribution of wealth via socialistic policies if not "trickle down economics"? Hmmmm? The only difference I see is that the government is doing "good" (take from the "rich" so that the poor have more) so that they may do "evil" (steal from the citizenry) in the form of confiscation of income. And they do so with impunity through emotional manipulation. - Mattb4rd

LOL! Mark, I'm not laughing at you; rather, I'm heartened by the fact that it seems like you've had a bit of an epiphany =) Like I said, location and COL have a HUGE impact on what is considered a 'normal' salary for any given portion of the US. For instance: the average household income in my MSA is about 45k, just below national average. My household income wouldn't even allow me to... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Apparently these CEO's are worth it or they wouldn't get paid for something they didn't do. Wait, some were paid anyway. Who allowed this. Not the workers. Therefore, why are workers/stockholders putting up with this? Naive. It take other to point this out to everybody else. - W. Kirk Crawford

Kirk, it doesn't appear (to me) that these were performance-based bonuses. AIG has cited contractual obligations, which leads me to believe that this was a deferred income arrangement. - Mattb4rd

Regarding AIG, they were supposed to be retention bonuses. And yet most of those who received them no longer work for AIG. WTF? - Victor Ganata

Victor - http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009... near as I can tell these bonuses were for the period ending November 2008. - Brian Sullivan

They need to stay out of it. In world war 2 the government put wage freezes in across industry. So, how did people attract workers? They thought up things like health insurance. If you do one thing, people will find some other way to compensate. - Matthew Sauer

No. - Chuck Baggett

terry chay

Hello ladies of the internet - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

March 18 from Flickr - Comment - Like - Share

Yoono liked this

Robert Scoble

Signs of the times in San Francisco - http://ourdoings.com/roberts...

March 5 from Robert Scoble - Comment - Like - Share

Alekkus, Brodie Beta, Lloyd Doppler and 38 other people liked this

I am walking down Market Street in San Francisco and two long-time key stores are closing. Virgin and Staceys. Prime retail real estate. Apple's store is across the street and is still busy. - Robert Scoble

38 more comments

They claim they can make more money renting the space then they were making as a store front. - Sean Montgomery

Yep. I have gone in their twice since moving to SF. They don't sell DVD-Rs there (fail) and full retail on everything. Amazon always is chea - Yoono

I heard about Virgin going out, but I have no idea Staceys going out too. This is so depressing, that's always my favorite book store :-( - charles

sad... - Luca Filigheddu

Virgin mega stores all shut down in the UK a few years ago and became Zavvi. Within a year all Zavvi stores closed down... just a few days ago they relaunched as an online only retailer of music. - Kaustav Bhattacharya

Robert - one thing to think about (and i dont know the answer) is - why is the apple store busy - are people buying or using? i know i go to the apple store when i need a quick internet hit - but i dont buy anything... virgin doesn't have internet terminals, etc. - Allen Stern

My local Virgin store in Burbank closed a few years ago after the roof collapsed during a storm. They never bothered to re-open it. Bummer, as it's a great music store. - Jonathon

Richard Branson said that one of his biggest regrets in business was that he didn't get out of retail sooner. - Dan Morelle

Allen: there certainly are still buyers but Apple is brilliant at psychology. I never go into an empty restaurant and Apple stores always make me feel good even as a place to dream. - Robert Scoble

Sad to see Stacey's go. They had a great selection. Virgin, not so much. I rarely could find anything I was looking for in there. Rasputin has a better selection and more informed staff. - Jeremy Brooks

I blogged about this a while back - but one thing to note that is very different between Apple stores & Virgin (and Stacy's for that matter) is how cluttered Virgin stores are vs. how clean & highly curated the Apple store is. Very different models & philosophies of retail (and look which is prospering) - Shannon Clark

robert - not sure i get your point about an empty rest. and apple? for example, i had 30 minutes to kill before a doctor appt - the apple store was on the next block so i went over there to use the internet but didnt buy anything - if you go to the store on 59th it's all tourists playing with the computers - will this change their thoughts for a future purchase? maybe - not sure honestly - it didn't change mine, i just bought a refurb dell xps :) - Allen Stern

good point shannon - i always found virgin in times square to be dumpy - Allen Stern

I almost twitpic'ed some stuff from BestBuy today. Couldn't get the laptop I wanted because it was sold out. Most of the lower-end Canon point-n-shoots had "sorry, sold out" signs in front of them. Are they purging inventory or are people still buying? - Jon Adair

Allen, something to keep in mind with Apple Stores (which is rare in US retail other than higher end designer stores) is that transactions can be closed by roving salespeople w/handheld credit card machines- and that most sales are fairly high margin (Apple's own products) - Shannon Clark

I Think we will be seeing this all over North America for the some time. - walterh

Not Stacy's! It was always a must visit when I was in SF. - Tom Landini

Stacey's is closing?!? I was hoping to go there next time I went to SF! Is the Palo Alto store closing as well? - Wilson Afonso

Actually, ignore that. I see that the Palo Alto store closed a while back. Damn. - Wilson Afonso

Staceys? NO!!!! - Helen Sventitsky

Article about Virgin store closures: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/article... - Barak B

I'm sad about the closure of Virgin Megastores for the same reason that I was sad about the closure of Tower Records a while back. As opposed to many other brick and mortar music chains, Tower and Virgin had a fairly large selection. If I couldn't find it in a Wherehouse or Music Plus, I could find it at Tower, or later at the Virgin Megastore. Are economics driving us to no wide-selection brick and mortar stores? Will we depend upon Amazon and Netflix for songs and movies? - Ontario Emperor

I should note that in my 8-bit rotary phone way, I'm not quite ready to move from CDs/DVDs to complete downloads where I don't purchase any tangible media. I rarely purchase songs online - the only time I did was via MSN Music, which no longer exists. My CDs that I bought at Virgin, Tower, etc. still exist. I guess I'm a tangible guy. - Ontario Emperor

Virgin was bound to close down anyway. Their prices are not competitive and they are certainly not innovative - nothing sets them aside. They're like Blockbuster. It's more of a result of not being with the times, rather than sign of the times, imho... - Mona Nomura

With so much music and video now sold without tangible media (discs) it's little surprise that companies like Virgin are closing. For example, I'm writing this on a Samsung NC10 - which doesn't have (or need) a CD/DVD drive. Unless Virgin and others chane their business model, more stores will close IMHO. - Jim Connolly

Virgin Megastore is a dinosaur. - Bill Sodeman

I think not just Virgin, but the whole Virgin Megastore concept now has had its day.. Media is just not bought this way IMHO any more. The only exception could be video games for now, until they also move online.. - Nigel Walsh

In the UK, Virgin Megastore's had a management buyout. It renamed to Zavvi and then went bust. - Nicholas James

the hollywood one is shutting down as well. last time i was there was on december. i purchased the cure's new & current album w/ event pass. i returned the cd days later after a fiasco /not so good experience @ the event. i hear they are keeping the new york times square megastore however. - sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq

Yep we saw that store closing down... bummer. - Drew Lucas

Great time to buy yourself a Virgin, wouldn't you say? :-) - Scott W.

Not sure that the Virgin Store is a victim the recession but instead a victim of iTunes and Amazon. - Steve Sill

I agree, Steve. Not so much victim of the recession. Virgin is just a symptom of a greater issue. Say rather its a victim of the disappearance of the virtue of loyalty. We say in a business we want to develop brand loyalty. But loyalty has to mean something in the spiritual sense before it translates into another discipline. When it loses its spiritual currency, the other does not follow far behind. Loyalty isn't loyalty unless its tested. - Melanie Reed

I wonder if there has been any service or goods that has been able to consistently deliver their service or product over the long term and constantly anticipate the demand for the novel yet sustainable for a whimsical buying public? Can you name one? - Melanie Reed

Long term is dead, at least for now. Its trends that we are going to have to move on from now on - RALPH

I agree, RALPH. And trends represent restlessness. So what is behind the restlessness? - Melanie Reed

Long term is not dead. Innovating, reinventing, and creativity = longevity. - Mona Nomura

It's sad that Virgin Megastores is closing - they already closed in Canada a while ago - but at least SF still has both Rasputin's and Amoeba Music. - Andrew C

Mona N. I would like to suggest that what appears to us to look like "long-term" by reinventing, innovating is just restlessness. That real long-term is something that supersedes that restless desire for reinvention, innovation (which are just synonyms for restlessness), that it is closer to what Chesterton called "exalting in monotony". This "getting up and saying to the sun: do it again!" We are not there yet. We have made nothing that warrants it and we are losing the capacity to notice what is. - Melanie Reed

Bret Taylor

We just launched a new backend system for FriendFeed that should make things a lot faster. Let us know if you see any problems or unusual changes in your feed. Thanks!

February 24 - Comment - Like - Share

Nenko Ivanov, Vinko, Javid★ and 184 other people liked this

even faster? :) - directeur

41 more comments

Even faster :) - Bret Taylor

is it like the backend of the new mac mini -- 80 USB ports? - MG Siegler

You're crazy. I'm in the 3rd world with a 128kbits/s and it's the fastest site after google! :) - directeur

Increasing the number of USB ports was vital to this upgrade :) - Bret Taylor

Nice... you were doing what I was doing today... see you can make major upgrades WITHOUT down time. Nice Job FF! - Brian Roy

Ok! Being behind a proxy makes my way somehow difficult but not that bad, I'll comment on that with stats if I see changes. Thanks Bret! - ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,

Without a downtime, great! FF for president ;) Maybe you can give us an insight into Friendfeed's architecture? - Waldemar Schott

I will write something up at some point in the near term. Maybe after it has been running for a couple weeks so we know it works like we think it will :) - Bret Taylor

Hopefully this helps with the lag time that I'm seeing from Twitter. I like using FF as a Twitter client; it's been tough lately with tweets taking over a half hour to get here. Nonetheless, well-done, guys. :) - Jared Smith

faster in what respect Bret? - Zee.

Sweet bejeesus, you guys rock! I like new features without taking down the whole site. This is efficiency baby. - Scott Jarkoff

Zee: loading your home feed, especially if you have many subscriptions, will be a lot faster. In general, viewing feeds with lots of people in them is much faster. - Bret Taylor

Bret, what about the RSS machinery? Will it fetch more feeds more often? - directeur

That is somewhat independent of this change, directeur. However, it should improve feed publishing a bit over the course of the next fews weeks as we completely decommission the old system - it will improve some aspects of our publishing throughput. However, most of the feed fetching improvements are coming as sites like BrightKite and Identi.ca adopt SUP (http://simpleupdateprotocol.go...) - Bret Taylor

one of the reasons I use ff so much is that I can often open a new tab, load friend feed, and read a couple of entries in the time it takes for some other site to load; nice to see that speed remains a priority :-) - Karl Rosaen

Thanks for the details Bret, I like the SUP concept and I actually use it on my Jazz blog and on SocialWhois too :) - directeur

Bret great to hear:) Keep up the great work. - Rob Cairns

Improved performance? Bret, it's like you're reading my mind. - Nick Dingle

Fast is better than slow, after all :) - Joel Webber

Bret - good stuff. Any effect on the delayed Twitter feeds? Or is that out of FriendFeed's hands? - Hutch Carpenter

Yeah, we need way more USB ports! LOL :) - Susan Beebe

i have not found FF faster at China - 阿石

It was quite fast to start off with, didn't notice any big differences. (Good nor bad) - Umit Namli

2Bret: According to Alexa traffic graph, FF doubled its traffic in this week. Is it real and if its real what was the reason for that? If its not confidential, May be you can share with us :) - Ömer Faruk Kurt

Ömer: Alexa is like a Ford T, it's a bit old. Don't know what to make of that service. - Umit Namli

Damn, now it's _too_ fast. - Robert Konigsberg

Bret: you guys rock. Friendfeed is so freaking fast. - Davide D'Incau

Now FF is so fast I'm seeing posts from next friday. - dario

FF is Fantastic. - Russellreno

♥FF! - Mattb4rd

I still seem to get the FF is unavailable screen quite a bit. I'd say about 50% of the time when trying to do searches, filter by service (especially FF itself) or look at best of day. Usually after getting the unavailable screen if I refresh one to five more time eventually the page loads. Annoying though. - Thomas Hawk

What? was FF slow?? - Andru Edwards

Thomas: yah, your account has been a stress test for our system for a variety of reasons. We hope to make progress on the Best of Day and search ASAP, and I will let you know. Sorry for the trouble. - Bret Taylor

w00t! - mike fabio from twhirl

Great work. I second the fact that it is only second to Google homepage in load-time - Varun Mahajan

Very cool, kudos! - Dave Martin

Woo-hoo! - Joey Gibson

@Bret: is this update related to the stuff mentioned in your 'Schema-less MySQL' post? - MikeAmundsen

Mike: yes, the new backend uses the approach described in the schema-less MySQL post - Benjamin Golub

Woot! (Does that explain my excitement well?) - Danielle Closs

Friendfeed gets fast, Twitter gets slow; all on the same day. - Eric @ CSTechcast.com

really? dosen't feel any differences. - Lira.H.C